What went wrong when society grew beyond Dunbar's number | Daniel Schmachtenberger and Lex Fridman

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Daniel Schmachtenberge...
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GUEST BIO:
Daniel Schmachtenberger is a philosopher and founding member of The Consilience Project.
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[@kevin_6217]

Government on the city and county level has the most direct effect upon your life, yet it is the most often ignored type of government.

[@nietzscheanmiddleman9832]

Become a poll watcher. Count the votes.

[@daverychling2970]

Also the most incestuous

[@inforequest4283]

Having worked in a small company of less than 500 people that grew to 10k + people I strongly agree with this. When it was small everyone knew everyone else it's impossible to BS your way to the top. Everyone known what you do and if you are good at your job. Once the company grew and grew I started seeing more and more people who does nothing and just BS their way around and they get away with it because people/management just don't KNOW you any more.

[@friendlyone2706]

And the BSers frequently have not a clue what they are.

[@angusorvid8840]

I've seen this myself working for a large company that grew exponentially. Sooner or later, I found myself on another planet with no connection to a larger whole. Communication was greatly eroded, and employees engaged in the most awful behavior to get ahead, stepping on coworkers, using slander, etc. Just a horrible experience. But I moved on too much greener pastures.

[@monsieur_]

@@friendlyone2706 You think they don't know they don't produce anything useful ?

[@friendlyone2706]

@@monsieur_ I like to think they have been deluded into seeing busy-work as work. The alternative is too depressing.

[@will201084]

You give upper management a lot of credit. Many times they create that culture and don't really care as long as the money is coming into their pockets

[@trumanpatriotsactivities6913]

I grew up in a town of less than 1,000 people. All of those advantages are true-input on local decisions, accountability, intermediate structures (schools, churches, etc).

[@Intrepid70]

It’s just wild that we’re even having these sorts of conversations

[@RawHeadRay]

Government needs accountability before it can ever bond with its peoples.

[@DeathZeroTolerance]

there's no accountability in democracies...america's accountability is democratic or republican's parties which were mostly the same until just recently....large groups of people elected by large groups....there's zero accountability in that.

[@RawHeadRay]

@@DeathZeroTolerance true

[@derosa1989]

why do people first jump to "government needs to be accountable!", how about start with individual accountability? oh yeah, because it's easier to blame "them" for everything instead of looking internally at your own choices.

[@RawHeadRay]

So angry already, I have to read past all of the passive aggressive insinuations. 🤓

[@swingset1969]

The constitution was designed to be that very thing, but the voters found out they could vote in people who would serve their interests, and enact their gross social controls on others. A republic, if they can keep it.

[@scottcannon1383]

I think I learn as much in the comment sections of these videos as I do watching the actual content, thankyou all for having such informative and non combative conversations

[@maggiegismero1819]

I totally agree Love reading the comments

[@hillbillymd]

Best part….Lex’s self satisfaction and associated smirk with the John Mayer reference.

[@bjkrisay]

I chuckled too, that's my sense of humor. I normally have to explain the humor, and half the time I'd rather just keep the conversation moving without explanation. 😂

[@albious...]

Followed by "...I apologize"

[@zacharyhendershott]

@@AIM-od9nr looks like someone didnt get into MIT

[@timob12]

@@AIM-od9nr You should have your own Podcast clearly you have all the answers. Let me know pal when you start, love to listen to your brilliance

[@zacharyhendershott]

@@AIM-od9nr no, not at all, just making a joke 😂 I don’t think he lacks depth. You just seemed very bitter by your response, so I said something that I thought might be funny. It didn’t seem like you had an objective take, just you seizing an opportunity to criticize him.

[@rodanzig]

When I hear the term "good for everybody" I release the safety on my Browning!"

[@joeymurdazalotmore6355]

Safety.? If i up it imma be on go or i wouldnt ever be in on street with a weapon? Livestream n rap about bodies. This aint hittin them folks

[@pureruckuspower2165]

@@joeymurdazalotmore6355 Jesus Christ take the saftey off of your English.

[@shanegametimberlake1417]

Never even had it on

[@shanegametimberlake1417]

@@pureruckuspower2165 that was a good one but old dude just don't want to be thug

[@Beefcakes9000]

Why is your safety on in the first place

[@mcm2366]

This was a fantastic conversation!

[@jeffreykellett8660]

I really enjoy this show very educational and fun .

[@theobserver9131]

What a brilliant and sensible response to the question! I would hope that Daniel could influence the direction of our order.

[@JohnnyTwoFingers]

These short clips are great!!

[@neotower420]

when you work for a large company you start to lose the recognition that humans require to feel satisfied when they do a "good job" and selflessly strive for perfection. Self-satisfaction becomes the dominating force. The company itself doesnt exist, it cant pat you on the back.. only the representative in charge of you can give you that satisfaction, and that person doesnt want to lose their job to you.

[@KevinJohnMulligan]

True "the company" becomes entirely abstract at scale.

[@teiuq]

@@KevinJohnMulligan i would argue "the company" is abstract at any scale.

[@neotower420]

@@teiuq yes, the very idea of branding a name for a company creates this abstract concept of a company as a "thing", something that has an identity. It's also why companies feel obligated to be politically correct, image and appeal.

[@jefferthomason5591]

I've been an anarchist for over a decade and only just come across this guy in the last few months. He articulates anarchism as good as anyone I've ever heard. I would love to hear him have a conversation with either Bret Weinstein (to put Bret straight on his skewed fears of anarchy) or Jordan Peterson (to hear them overlap their thoughts on the 7 generation principle). Those conversations would be hugely beneficial for humanity right now

[@lannyrayconnelljr]

This must be why small towns are generally more moral than large cities.

[@oleyullah]

Ron Swanson looks refreshed in this video.

[@joesteadman343]

It looks like he had a baby with a younger version of himself.

[@gprivat812_my_selection6]

Very interesting and informative talk, a lot to think about!

[@superharmonic]

And I’m like, “whaaatt!” Very happy to see Daniel on Lex’s podcast. Watching the whole long thing when I get a chance.

[@Drjoshington]

For the record, I was cracking up at "our body is a wonderland" even though it didn't land so straight in studio.

[@chris432t6]

Excellent. Love the last line from Lex.

[@dru4670]

I long waited for Daniel to come on here. Glad you made this happen Lex.

[@123mandalore777]

God this was such a satisfying discussion. Too many interesting points to pick one to namedrop here.

[@normalbutyl]

watching lex shows you how to think and ask questions. man great show

[@iamgooggig]

Daniel is on fire!

[@steveballes5396]

My body is a wonderland comment was awesome Lex!

[@loud7070]

Wonderful podcast.

[@gazicj]

this dude is so precise w/ his word choice, and expression. impressive as fuk

[@spacedog504]

This needs more views!

[@timothythomason1600]

I had an idea many years ago about a scaling up Dunbars number for a new kind of society. Everyone lives in self governing groups of approximately 100 people. Electing one of their number to represent the group on the next level up. That next level up is comprised of 100 representatives from the base level groups. They then elect one of their number to represent them on the third tier. This scales up very quickly. 100 people in the first tier. 10,000 in the second tier. 1,000,000 in the third tier. 100,000,000 in the fourth tier ect. No individual would ever be more than 5 steps removed from the grand council.

[@KiskaeGG]

That would make an interesting book concept.

[@iuvalclejan]

It's a good idea, but not sufficient. You also need to provide "binding energy" at each level, some form of interdependence, based on trade of goods and services, and maybe shared stories (aka religion or ideology or philosophy). And each level would need its own Dunbar number, they are not necessarilly all going to be equal to the tribal Dunbar number. For example a family probably functions best with a handful of people, and a tribe or village functions best with maybe 20-30 families, and a city might be best with 100s of villages/tribes/neighborhoods/companies (but neighborhoods that are interdependent based on trade and production of goods and services, not just based on proximity), and a bioregion might have a handful of cities, a nation a handful of bioregions, and a transnational federation might have 10s of nations. The higher levels would be concerned less with trade and more with keeping rogue parts under control (but not totalitarian control).

[@timothythomason1600]

@@iuvalclejan i like it my original proposal was just a basic outline. What you offer is refinement. However I still want to limit the upward funneling because you want to limit the number of levels and thus detachment the common person has to the upper tiers. perhaps 100 at the family level 10 at top tier and 50 for all intermediary tiers. As far as shared stories go and a binder, in my fantasy or thought experiment, the citizens find a family as adults and take the family and clan names regardless of gender. Thereby assuming family pride and history as their own. The rogue family or clan is a problem ive thought of a lot. One idea was that a parallel government of peace keepers would be formed with every clan sending one of their own to train as a PK. The PK are organized in the same fashion as the civilian government. The scary possibility however is accidentally creating a Praetorian Guard of sorts.

[@timothythomason1600]

@@iuvalclejan base level group is family next level up is clan. didnt realize that wasnt included in original post.

[@iuvalclejan]

@@timothythomason1600 The whole point of a higher level is to be a pk for its warring parts, and to do this not only in response to hostilities, but prophylactically, by promoting trust and cooperation. This can be done recursively at all levels up to the hiighest. That's how nature does it... So we don't need separate pk groups. Also, humans probably can't handle families with more than a handful of adults, at least as far as optimizing intimacy. Many intentional communities have faltered for not recognizing the difference between a family and a clan/village tribe.

[@squishyfish5332]

Im almost wished i never knew what was actually going on, my stomach has been turning ever since. Evil & wickedness come from within all of us naturally, this is why the human race is damned. The only way out of our fate is to spread Love, Poetry, Beauty, Peace, and Transparency.

[@squishyfish5332]

@k c search the definition.

[@SahilP2648]

Clash of ideologies creates conflicts. And that's why there will always be conflicts.

[@elijah7939]

Whats going on?

[@squishyfish5332]

@k c just keep swimming.. just keep swimming..

[@Knifymoloko]

@k c fishy consciousness

[@ryanbates1496]

I really enjoyed Daniel's view on this and this discussion. I agree completely and have become very interested in the importance and leverage capacity of city governance since spending a bit of time studying municipalism/New Municipalism, Fearless Cities, the work of Murray Bookchin, participatory governance and democracy. I really think the lack of participation from the majority of citizens is a major part of the problem. It goes without saying that our representative democracies in the west are highly problematic and causing a lot of issues - since they're a fake democracy, not a democracy at all by any measure only in name. I think this fractal nature of governance in which the household, neighbourhood, community, and city all involve more active citizenry, more self-governance structures, direct democracy etc is the way to go. For technology and digital tools pol.is an open-source deliberative software created by Colin Megill in Seatlle is fascinating and has done great things in Taiwan along with other tools largely influenced by Audrey Tang their super-smart digital minister.

[@sean_wells]

...most of all, appreciate the apology for the John Mayer reference.

[@jim6929]

I guess that’s why the guy in dances with wolves was called Dunbar

[@corkyvanderhaven3391]

Maybe improve the description length if ya can Seems easy and beneficial. Seems like this is a channel for readers😎

[@cognitiumone]

Lex fumbling for words makes him sound 90 IQ after Daniel's eloquence

[@garethwigglesworth8187]

As soon as I seen his surname I knew he was legit

[@wildtwindad]

I think the dance verbally is one that is encapsulated down to a velvet revolution. The transition from an older paradigm (industrial revolution/post etc) to one that actually incorporates modern temperments.

[@JVSTINHILL]

The end had me laughing out loud

[@aaronb7990]

🤣 that ending though.

[@burnzzi]

Just an idea, albeit completely off the cuff, what if we killed the possibility of a second term so that the president can actually focus on tasks for the full 4 years? The catch: in between every four year presidential term will be a one year term where the president elect and acting president preside over matters together in order to facilitate task continuity.

[@mcdroppalog4569]

Very interesting

[@TheMostSmokeCrew]

How do we restructure humanity to be most efficient is the most important question we can be asking at every single moment. Is this efficient? How can we do better. Let's be better.

[@zyxwfish]

The human animal is the only animal that struggles so hard with things other animals have no problems with because we have an objectifying mind. We think we can get somewhere to eliminate problems and discontent but it will never happen. 99.9% of our problems only exist as an idea.

[@dornishred6033]

Well said.

[@zyxwfish]

TCrob what does that mean? A bear doesn’t have an objectifying mind. I’m saying 99.9% of our problems exist in our head. The other .1% of our problems are real, bodily pain or discomfort.

[@dornishred6033]

@@zyxwfish “It Is Not What Happens To You It Is How You Respond To It” -Epictetus Or something like that…… I believe he said.

[@zyxwfish]

Dornish Red right but with humans you have to go through all kinds of mental gymnastics animals don’t. Crows communicate but I highly doubt they can hurt each other’s feelings through language. Most of the pain humans experience are from ideas and language, otherwise suicide or drug use wouldn’t exist.

[@dornishred6033]

@@zyxwfish yes, I wasn’t disagreeing. I thought the Epictetus quote supported what it was you were saying. Maybe my quote wasn’t applicable, either way, I agree with the sentiments you were trying to convey.

[@jaimebrooks51]

Excellent thought leaders evoking sense-making in the midst of collapse. The time of two paths, at last.

[@michaellacy8510]

Intermediate structures are there. But they are unseen and unappreciated because higher levels (e.g., political parties) work hard to exacerbate differences and work against recognition of similarities. In general, we don't know or care about the political party of the checker at the grocery store. But, they are also kind of transparent to our concepts of what is important- which is a problem.

[@jonahbarnes5841]

This was a roller coaster of logic. One sentence makes sense and then the next contradicts it... Dunbar number and global governance in the same rant? He did it! Somehow, he did it!

[@integrallens6045]

@13:27 this is a concept I find a lot in integral theory. When you pull the plug out of a sink full of water, the water chaotically begins to rush down the drain. But out of that chaos the structure of the cyclone forms, which is a form of order. This is also an idea portrayed in the Divergent series. Where they create so much chaos and friction among the different tribal factions that higher level thinking beings emerge and try to bring a new order into being. They later find out this was all an intentional experiment. Part of me looks at the state of the world today and wonders if that's what we are seeing around us now. Unintentional or even intentional.

[@SergAI]

This man is absolutely brilliant

[@InnaBawks]

cellular automata comes to mind when I think of how we would appoint leadership. If the decision making could by preserved by implementing a very basic rule to the fundamental point where it manifests it could secure an infallible chain unreakable into the FUTURE!!!!! love ya lex! love ya Dan. Ya'll the best.

[@captainvonkleist8323]

Application of game theory is a good way to predict emergent social phenomenon. Whether or not such phenomena (or attempts to dissuade such phenomena) destabilize the society is a different question, though. Also, understanding which parts of society lie in shadow, is a good way to predict emergent social phenomena (or, at least where it's likely to occur). I'm afraid that effective governance will always require the governors to read and react to the governed. So, it must be partly improvisational.

[@bikeninja956]

It's an interesting convo. I was just thinking about this a few days ago after visiting a smaller local town. I feel like too small and isolated is not good and too big is not good either, for many reasons which I won't go into now...but I'd say the goldilocks zone is cities of a few hundred thousand in population. They're just big enough to have a prosperous and stable economy but not too big where they are too large to manage. Look at most cities of this size in US and CAN and they're the one's that have the highest standard of living and everyone wants to move to.....which ofcourse, jacks realestate prices up and will eventually ruin them :(.....

[@natmaka]

Pertinent: Leopold Kohr, Jacques Ellul and Robert Pirsig (quality/organization, in "Lila").

[@haroldthommen3296]

plzzzz get Daniel to discuss with Michael

[@tlatoanimachi]

Human timeline off by a magnitude of logical factors. Shall we return to knowing?

[@julianhart2247]

This raises a question about what these local structures do with the mentally unfit.

[@redmoose516]

Exactly, there's nothing but jail or the streets

[@mrrexgamer1977]

@@Heavywall70 nice one 😂

[@hugoarcada]

Exposure to the elements.

[@DeathZeroTolerance]

love...obviously

[@julianhart2247]

@@DeathZeroTolerance probably not.

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

Most dangerous people ever to walk this planet said "my idea is better than all others " .

[@akshayde]

im 3 people in my family and we still dont communicate and make decisions together

[@martinuhlenbrock2968]

Wait, the end is nigh if we don't change our ways? OMG! Never heard that before in my whole entire life! What a shock!

[@garethmacginty6182]

Drops in the John Mayer reference. 😂

[@anthonysabatino4317]

I think the local government should have a Congress where each seat represents 150 households. This way, you don't need to get a massive fortune to run for office, and the people who elect you can hold you accountable personally, and not elect you again if you wind up being incompetent or corrupt to the point you harm those who voted for you.

[@JacrostheWHite]

A society that focuses on art, beauty, and the mastery of skills. This includes science. Science needs more art to truly balance the masculine and feminine energies that are inherit in us all. The Greeks understood this as a core philosophy for their society, at the moment the balance is out of whack.

[@petermaquine8173]

No that's a rewriting of history. The Greeks understood the importance of "good-thinking" that's why we have Socratic dialogues and logic from Aristotle, but like any around the Mediterranean they were patriarchal and that's precisely what it is needed to have good thinking. Good thinking happen when we move from being mostly guided by our instincts to our cognitive functions and that's what open us modern civilization. There is no man-woman energy, it's Zen philosophy. There is the ability to manage tools to manage our cognitive functions and men are better at it therefore they manage the society.

[@JacrostheWHite]

@@petermaquine8173 Plato has two works on social and political organization: the Republic and the Laws. In the first, he argues that, although men as a group are superior to women, there are many women that are better than many men; for this reason, women should be given the chance to benefit from an education that could turn them into potential city governors. In the light of his notion that only practising philosophers could govern wisely, this proposal in the Republic implies that women (or at least some women) could arrive at the pinnacle of knowledge, as represented by philosophy, thereby enabling them to be queens of the just city. Even in utopian terms, it does not seem irrelevant that this idea once arose in Greece and that it is the object of debate in one of the best known works of western philosophy.

[@M0ON4.visuals]

Lex should have someone on who has a deep knowledge of different Native American tribes. Many of these tribes were doing it right. A culture where it was shameful to put yourself before the community.

[@qwew2244]

Maybe the platform would be a decentralized autonomous organization (dao).

[@conot4006]

What people are missing, including this discussion, is the diminishing returns in networking groups. You can tell this guest even wants to tie in networking groups, the ability to work from home, company zoom calls, Microsoft Teams, etc.. because we've been force fed that as our future. However, one of the basic principles he brings up initially is the negative return on lying, manipulation and sociopathic behavior for the individual in small groups because it's easy to see the effect that individual and activity has on the group as a whole. However, when it comes to online networking groups the day to day actions of each individual is not easily seen by all other members of the group. So the ability to build trust and self-regulation at the individual level for the betterment of the group as a whole is not created organically. This is why most workers today complain about the inability to make change, have an impact or see results at a company level. It's why you still feel empty even after achieving amazing results because you can't see the benefit your actions had on the company as a whole.

[@DeathZeroTolerance]

There is a balance in a worker wanting to make change and a tyrannical CEO. If everyone at the table is talented, then you need to listen to everyone's opinion no matter how much you disagree. A great manager will be able to recognize this. A great manager will also be able to recognize that some people really are incompetent and shouldn't have a voice at the table. Unfortunately, the current trajectory of most companies, especially in silicon valley is that everyone should pursue the power of making change in the company....even if it's a terrible idea by an incompetent employee.

[@memeLOOT]

I like Pistachio flavored ice cream, thank you for asking.

[@noeticjustice1535]

.... "Your body is a wonderland!"

[@maggiegismero1819]

Why do certain people desire to control other people and rule over them? How could they find pleasure in oppressing other humans?

[@teiuq]

People get addicted to all sorts of things.

[@MrS-pe6sd]

I have noticed that, ironically, the best interviews Lex does is when he doesn’t say a word

[@georgenelson8917]

This all leaves out LAND ownership systems, as some one who lives in very rural area, there is alway a unfair and corrupt big land owners that mess up any ideal small group system.

[@bedcech]

A governance, process, can be just as overreaching as a government.

[@HigherPlanes]

There's a place in the state of Georgia known as the Georgia Guidestones. It's a massive granite monument built in the 1980's, columns as big as Stoneheng, no one knows who built it. Carved into the stones are some "commandments" or "directives", and one of the directives is maintain a world population of no more than 500 million.

[@zinho9169]

Well, we're a few hundred years too late for that.

[@HigherPlanes]

@@zinho9169 We sure are, interesting nonetheless

[@zinho9169]

@@HigherPlanes true

[@frotob3816]

16:24 lex could make that platform

[@acebilbo]

I found myself, weirdly, becoming a little anxious when Daniel is developing his answer, which he does take a while to do, and thinking, God, interviewer, don't butt in with your "interjections". I lost the whole damn train of thought.

[@teiuq]

There are indeed people where Lex´s strategy might be beneficial to extract the most but with a sophisticated thinker and speaker like Daniel whos ability to transfer ideas and concepts that efficient its not the case.

[@francoispicard8507]

Lex should simplify his questions to increase his speech speed. It's OK to ask incomplete questions. It's a conversation after all.

[@theobserver9131]

Lex is funny about going off on abstract tangents.

[@agentk1205]

Hanging out around a campfire and talking for several hours illuminates all of the demons in your brothers and sisters around you, this is the first thing that must be done to create this emergent order; find out who you can trust and jive with comfortably. Everything else really just sorts itself out. For example, if you have some asshole playing the guitar on the other side of the party and he's constantly complaining that nobody is listening to him play or nobody likes his music, while everybody else is having a good time and just having a conversation with one another, he's not comfortable with that it's not enough to just be background music, he has to be the center stage and everybody has to look at him.... You know not to fuck with that guy and all of your friends don't want to fuck with them either. So you leave him alone, out of the campfire. If one cannot be cool with people doing their own thing, then they need to leave the tribe.

[@Rctdcttecededtef]

Had no idea lex listened to John Mayer lol

[@DeathZeroTolerance]

lex does play guitar, and mayer is a guitar god

[@Rctdcttecededtef]

@@DeathZeroTolerance he definitely is and I didn’t know lex played guitar. Cool

[@lavigner328]

yes we can it's called holding people accountable for there actions

[@saiejagar6734]

"My body is a wonderland"

[@__-tz6xx]

It is interesting to think so many decisions are based on social limits. If we were to free up some limits I wonder what could be accomplished and what would be ruined?

[@stephenhauck5251]

He just described Texas. Governance is at the local level specifically with taxation.

[@Willard_and_Wee-un]

This is exactly the point Aristotle made in Politics, that no one ever seems to talk about. He said 1 person doesn't make a polis but neither does a 100,000. Then he goes on to say it's because the citizens have to know each other. Our confusion around polis size really comes to light when encountering something like a pandemic because it makes us realize that all the problems of ineffectiveness can be attributed to intergovernmental affairs. The feds are responsible. No, the state is responsible. Actually, it's the county, no wait, the fed kicks money to the state, the state develops standards, but the county administers the program, but they need permission from the city to setup in that city. The federal program becomes entirely ineffective, the feds get the blame. Meanwhile, the problem can be traced to permitting at the city level because, while everyone thinks the program would be great, just not in my backyard.

[@bntagkas]

people get confused with governments. what are they really? they are people hired by the people to do some job that benefits...people. the current problem is that of corruption and incompetence. the job is important and it needs to be done, and the solution is not to abolish the tool that will do the job, simply make sure the tool is good and fit for the job and not corrupt/damaged. the issue is we need to fire the people of the government and redo it from the ground up, making sure those hired for the job are transparent, capable, and answer most of all to the people. the biggest current problem is we could only do it through voting, which is itself corrupt and people are too stupid and easily manipulatable, so we are kinda stuck, because an obvious other solution would be to storm the capitol or whatever, but guess what, you will meet as your enemy tanks and police and army that you yourself funded through taxes for decades, and guess what your shitty guns that you use to kill each other and do school shootings dont mean shit vs tanks and whatever the army has. so the situation is quite fucked, because the only way legal left for the people to bring down the government and rebuild it from the ground up better is through voting which is for decades made into a system that will near guarantee the masters will always win. so there need to be small progress done that snowballs into a movement, it needs to be done from the internet, and it needs to educate the masses as per what the situation really is and what we should do to solve it. this unfortunately requires the masses become somehow radically smarter and better informed, which requires a radical new technology, such as an advanced neuralink has promise to be, but that will come in about 15-30 years. until then i dont think theres too much you can do, but you could start trying to get people organized online into political/public matters they should care about to get the snowball going.

[@copyninja8756]

What the hell did not expect this soft spoken dude to look like that 🤣

[@TerryNails]

As long as we maintain this sort of me first survivalist notion on an individual level, no amount of social engineering and planning is going to be very effective. Unless we are capable of teaching cooperative compassionate views regarding everything we will essentially end up in the same fighting bickering greed-based mode of behavior that we exhibit on a daily basis now. True social engineering is an inside job and is not something that can be enforced or legislated by a group of survivalist self-seeking minded individuals simply because the temptation of power will always lead those who think that way astray.

[@Individual_Lives_Matter]

The only reasonable explanation I’ve heard about how one might get rid of the police and in the first few minutes.

[@oaftobar]

Get Mayer on

[@chaunceyrash5067]

Dan’s a very intelligent man.

[@mattfuller6812]

Whoo. Thanks for giving me a target. Nothing personal, yo

[@Individual_Lives_Matter]

A free market, constrained by natural rights (life, liberty, property), most closely resembles natural selection/evolution. There’s your spontaneous order. Minimal boundary conditions, freedom of individual choice (except theft and coercion are off the menu). You don’t need a watchmaker for that.

[@mig-lroc2190]

What is the number of this episode…??

[@Nuts-Bolts]

I see things like this. As the upper limits of the Dunbar number is reached, further group expansion is possible by the creation of institutions to take on specialized roles of maintaining the checks and balances. For simplicity, lets call them the Guilds of the butcher, baker and candlestick maker. This involves the introduction of a formal civil codes for people to abide by. In other words, they adopt ‘civilization’. For the first five generations this ‘civilization’ enables unfettered growth of their economy. Most plagues and bad harvests come and go without the economy faltering. Here is the twist that many non classic scholars seem to miss. In each generation, according to the law(?) of Pareto Distribution, there is born the nouveau riche. After 5 generations these families (still following Pareto Distribution) have acquired control over the whole economy. Beyond this point of saturation. The only way they can continue to maintain their influence and access to wealth, is to start corrupting the very institutions that their predecessors depended on. For they are becoming the idle rich, insomuch as they no longer produce wealth but skim off the cream produced by others. This can continue for about another 5 generations until the institutions are so corrupted that they are permitting the opposite of what they where created for. This accelerates (in line with the Pareto curve) until the wheels fall off the economy. The civilization (or long period of sustained economic growth) then goes into free fall. This is the human condition which gets repeated time and time again, locked into periods of about 10 generations throughout recorded history. Suppose the best known historical text explaining the steps is The Prophecy of Hermes Trismegistus. Read Mead’s translation of Thrice-Greatest Hermes, Vol. 2 chapter XXIV.

[@fibonaccifanzeroviews7839]

Yes it is Lex, yes it is. 😂👑

[@HigherPlanes]

Every form of government tends to parish by excess of its basic principle. Aristocricy ruins itself by limiting too narrowly the circle within which power is confined. Oligarchy ruins itself by the incautious scramble for immediate wealth. In either case, the end is revolution. When revolution comes it may seem to arise from little causes and petty whims. But though it may spring from slight occasions, it is the precipitate result of grave and accumulated wrongs. When a body is weakened by neglected ills, the nearest exposure may bring serious disease. Then democracy comes, the poor overcome their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing the rest, and give to the people an equal share of freedom and power. But even democracy ruins itself by excess... of democracy. Its basic principle is the equal right of all to hold office and determine public policy. This is at first glance a delightful arrangement. It becomes disastrous because the people are not properly equipped by education to select the best rulers and the wisest courses. As to the people, they have no understanding, and repeat what their rulers are pleased to tell them. To get a doctrine accepted or rejected it is only necessary to have it praised or ridiculed in a popular play. Mob rule is a rough sea for the ship of state to ride, every wind of oratory stirs up the water and deflects the course. The upshot of such a democracy is tyranny or autocracy. The crowd so loves flattery, it is so hungry for honey, that at last the wiliest and most unscrupulous flatterer, calling himself the protector of the people, rises to supreme power. Consider the history of Rome. -Plato, The Republic

[@adrimargo9579]

So whats the solution?

[@JohnSmith-vd6fc]

If anarchy is the creation of communities based on having similar views, then that would be a world separated according to ideology. That doesn't sound particularly stable to me.

[@teiuq]

I dont get how the anarchy idea can get that much credit. While theres certainly a case to be made for less and more efficient government the forming of social hierarchies is in our nature isnt it?

[@slightlygruff]

pentagon does planning

[@rmiddlehouse]

San Francisco

[@johnklebahn7094]

"...ur body issa wonderland 😏"

[@GorillaStrengthEquipment]

This is roughly how I run manufacturing buisnesses. From 10 to 30 people you see people self recognize those with skill,knowledge, and leadership. The natural leaders are easy to identify and respected throughout on merrit. Between 30 to 50 people the group starts to change. People do not know each other well enough for natural merit based leadership to be self- recognizing. At this point you have to start looking to develop specialized team leaders. Companies are easily ran with a small management teams until you reach roughly the 150+ employee mark. At this point you.... its a whole different ball game. Much Respect David Dennis