When does protesting become a crime? | Nico Perrino | Just Asking Questions, Ep. 22

Executive VP of FIRE Nico Perrino discusses the history and legality of campus protests
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What should colleges do about pro-Palestinian encampments?
College students across America are camping out to demand their universities divest all investments with Israeli-linked companies that they claim profit from the occupation and oppression of Palestine. It's gone on for weeks, and even administrators at schools known as bastions of progressive activism are finally getting fed up. Harvard's president is threatening "involuntary leave" for protesters. Columbia announced on Monday that it canceled its main commencement ceremony for safety reasons. The University of Southern California has, too.
UCLA called in the cops to clear its encampment, and police have arrested more than 2,100 protesters across all U.S. campuses since April, according to the Associated Press.
Congress has continued to interrogate Ivy League presidents, and a bill to explicitly define antisemitism for civil rights law enforcement purposes just passed the House with overwhelming support last week.
Joining us today to talk about the protests, the backlash, and what it all means for free speech on campus and the wider world is Nico Perrino, executive vice president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), and host of the free speech podcast So to Speak.
Watch the full conversation on Reason's KZbin channel or the Just Asking Questions podcast feed on Apple, Spotify, or your preferred podcatcher.
Sources referenced in this conversation:
Full Text of the Antisemitism Awareness Act
International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definition of antisemitism.
Columbia students define "divest"
Harvard President Garber Breaks Silence on Encampment, Threatens 'Involuntary Leave' for Protesters
Columbia cancels commencement amid campus protests
Map: Where College Protesters Have Been Arrested or Detained
Polling 1,200 college students on Encampments
What Americans think about recent pro-Palestinian campus protests | YouGov
Americans' Views of Both Israel, Palestinian Authority Down
Majority in US Say Israel's Reasons for Fighting Hamas Are Valid | Pew Research Center
Letter from judges saying they won't hire Columbia grads as clerks
Timestamps:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:33 Free Speech on Campus: A Conversation with Nico Perrino
00:02:13 The Historical Context of Campus Protests and Free Speech Debates
00:07:28 The Legal and Social Implications of Campus Encampments
00:31:38 The Role of Civil Disobedience in Campus Activism
00:38:31 Evaluating the Effectiveness of Campus Protests Through Polling Data
00:43:07 Congressional Involvement in Campus Free Speech Issues
00:50:48 The Anti-Semitism Awareness Act of 2023: A New Legal Battleground
00:54:56 The Complexities of Free Speech and Political Expression on Campus
00:59:17 Navigating the Tensions of Privacy and Free Speech
01:03:42 The Role of Public Shaming and Cancel Culture in Free Speech Debates
01:20:03 Nico wants you to ask yourself this question about censorship
01:23:58 Just Ask Us Questions: A Libertarian's Evolving Stance on Immigration

[@Tonkarai]

Protesting isn't a crime. When protesting becomes rioting with destruction of property and hurting others it does.

[@glennmitchell9107]

If the owner of the property on which you are protesting tells you to leave the property, and you refuse to leave, then you are no longer protesting. You are trespassing, which is a crime.

[@andybrice2711]

That's not entirely true. For example, if I protested outside a library every day with a bullhorn, that might also reasonably be considered a crime.

[@BuffaloSoldier1965.]

dont feel sorry for the (overpaid) administrators; they have created this environment of selective activism.

[@rezakarampour6286]

' US Polices : Made In Israel . '

[@TheLukemcdaniel]

Protesting is not a crime, but doing something that would otherwise be considered a crime(i.e. busting a window) is still a crime.

[@PLdemorygray]

I'm amazed that none of the panelists here bothered to challenge their base assumption that universities are privileged places, where the inhabitants are NOT subject to the same rules and laws as the rest of the community that they exist within. Tent camping is illegal in most cities, even in the backyard of property you own. Universities don't need to "give" police "jurisdiction" to enforce state and municipal law on campuses. University police forces lack the jurisdiction to enforce the law off campus. The limitation doesn't go the other way. State police, capitol police and municipal police all possess the right to enforce the law at the municipal level, including on college campuses. Perpetuating the assumption that college campuses MUST be treated as oases, where youth are allowed to exist above the law, is a recipe for breeding the worst elements of cultural privilege.

[@Anonymous-jk5uu]

I may be wrong but colleges are not strictly privileged places are they? For instance if somebody got murdered on a college campus the municipal police would be responsible for the investigation.

[@PLdemorygray]

@@Anonymous-jk5uu That's my point. Elite institutions have traditionally instilled the idea that their students' status and education entitles them to elite privileges. It falls under the rubric of "town-gown relations", but rarely has any basis in the law. The sense of privilege is based on old, thoroughly elitist concepts. Today, people who unquestioningly equate education with meritocracy often fail to recognize how socially corrosive their base assumptions can be.

[@josephdunsay4360]

Protesting is a crime when it makes a campus a hostile environment for a class of students. You wouldn't consider defending the protesters if they were protesting Nigeria and harassing Black students.

[@Joe-fr8yd]

They seem perfectly content with the long march through the institutions. This is the blind spot of the free speech absolutists.

[@gaildrake5940]

Take lessons from the Dutch Bulldozers and Batons . Takes care of thier protesters

[@charleshetrick3152]

So if the colleges aren’t supposed to invest in Israel anymore how ‘bout DOW, the company that makes Mace.

[@roncollins1046]

Sad but obvious: having a social conscience directly invested in a conflict, and FOMO-genuflection to the latest Sixties-Envy zeitgeist, are not even close to being the same things. I never thought I'd say this about the whole Grateful Dead scene of days gone by, but it did do a far better, and certainly more peaceful and orderly, job of delivering fixes to Sixties-Envy sufferers, than this utterly insincere and guaranteed-ineffective nonsense now going on at universities. What.Eh.Ver. Funny, I always thought the PRIVILEGE of attending an accredited university was to, you know, get a good education, not to rant and rave with no one even listening beyond one's fellow-rant-and-ravers, pretending to demand the world be run the way a howling pack of Sixties-Envy sufferers demand it to be run. Free speech my ass: what I see is no one wanting to be accused of missing a party.

[@harris4041]

It’s rioting

[@ianbattles7290]

Towns will accomplish their short-term goal of shutting down the protest *at a long-term cost of millions of taxpayer dollars.*

[@patusoro4781]

Interesting conversation, too bad Nico doesn't have an opinion. "I don't envy the university administrators"... "Force should be a last resort"... sure. No one disagrees but any thoughts, comments, plans to resolve this? FYI - @32:00

[@xyzzy1234567]

The administration can't suspend or expel a non student agitator.

[@petermgruhn]

How are people who don't agree with the encampers treated at the encampment? Does that foster free speech?

[@petermgruhn]

"I don't think so." Ah. Told you so. So go back and rewatch your words and rethink.

[@petermgruhn]

Do any of the surveys ask "Do you think students are unhappy with their schools should leave?"

[@petermgruhn]

First guess : Never. Protesting is not criminal and cannot be. Protesting will "become a crime" when a protestor commits a crime. "Black Pantsers". Ah.. I wish I didn't know what he meant/probably said.

[@richdobbs6595]

Even separate from the government support of immigrants, the population of the USA has doubled in my life time, so the share of wild spaces has halved, and immigration accounts for perhaps half of that increase, and 100% of current increases. Immigration creates winners and losers, yet conventional libertarian thought socializes the cost and privatizes the benefits. The primary value that immigrants are utilizing is a well functioning society. Rather than giving this away, it should be sold at a market price. Just like some countries benefit from natural resources like oil, well functioning societies should be able to benefit from that for the benefit of current citizens.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

Such a relevant comment! ;)

[@andybrice2711]

1:15:35 I'm the kind of misanthrope who might've answered "neither". I know it sounds callous, but empathy is a limited resource. You can't feel the suffering of everyone in the world and stay sane. At some point you have to draw a Stoic line around what issues you can dedicate your thoughts to. And although I recognize that the situation is horrific. It also seems like a somewhat intractable problem, when so many people in both regions actively seem to want holy war instead of peace.

[@glennmitchell9107]

This should be a KZbin Short, not an hour and a half episode. Universities should do whatever they can do, legally. The First Amendment is a restriction on the federal government, not on anyone else. If the college administrators want to trespass the demonstrators and expel them for violating the school's rules, then they should do that. If they want to indulge the demonstrators, then they should accede to whatever demands they see fit.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

You may have missed the fact that this discussion was about freedom of expression generally, not just what the US Constitution protects. Also, since the passage of the 14th Amendment, the First Amendment applies to all governments in the United States. Private universities are not bound by the First Amendment, but state universities are.

[@glennmitchell9107]

@@JonathanRossRogers It's time we revoked the 14th Amendment.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

@@glennmitchell9107 Feel free to call for a constitutional convention. BTW, what do you think the 14th got wrong?

[@glennmitchell9107]

@@JonathanRossRogers I had to reach but, the equal protection of the laws being applied to all persons gives illegal migrants too much of a claim on our judicial and other systems.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

@@glennmitchell9107 That's interesting. You'd rather state governments be able to abridge the freedom of speech and prohibit the free exercise of religion of people born in the country as long as they do the same to people not born in the country?

[@christinehill1038]

They should tell the kids to get out of the camps. if they don't, they should expel the kids.

[@user-sj4pk7ev7p]

We have so-called the best democracy money can buy, which is no democracy at all.

[@cluistube]

Ever since you showed the Zach-bot AI thingy my brain is struggling watching the real Zach. I know its him, but, now HE is the uncanny valley. :D

[@KaranBhatt-fu2gp]

Video quality from left to right goes like 4k 1080 720 😂😂

[@Ninguin]

Makes sense to me, spend money to go to college, waste your time protesting about something so minor that it’s ridiculous.

[@GenosideTV]

Never

[@jerrold3685]

If Collegs divest, are they beholden to BDS laws?

[@ZOMBIEHEADSHOTKILLER]

protesting is never a crime, its always a right. rights, can not be crimes. only crimes are crimes.

[@stephenoverdorf4917]

Protests are a constitutional right. The college campus is the best place for it. The fact that the colleges are having issue with these protests in particular is interesting.

[@somethingawesome1462]

Building encampments, damaging buildings, occupying buildings, demanding food delivery, demanding access to university bathrooms, demanding passing grades, etc. are not protesting.

[@mikewurlitzer5217]

There is NO Constitutional right to interfere in the day to day lives of civilized people. ZERO and you will never be able to prove me wrong. PLUS, we are under NO obligation to tolerate the existence, on US soil, anyone defending a group which for well over 1400 years has never deviated from their demand that the entire world must: "Convert or Die". NO EXCEPTIONS.

[@mikewurlitzer5217]

I'll try this again but the soviet like censors are quite active. There is NO, ZERO, ZIP, NADA right to interfere in the day to day lives of civilized people and you will never find it because it does not exist. Also, we are under no obligation to tolerate anyone defending a group which for well over 1400 years has never deviated from their demand that the entire world must "CONVERT or DIE". Who is doing the censoring? YT or Reason TV?

[@richdobbs6595]

For the most part, this is a civil conflict within the Democratic party. There seems to be no correlation between arrests and severity of offenses - that is arrests aren't being made because of assault and battery against neutral or negative parties, nor property damage from graffiti, but instead are happening when college administration gets law enforcement on board with clearing encampments, which is the least noteworthy legal offense.

[@richdobbs6595]

Boy, what a steal from Triggernometry!

[@JonathanRossRogers]

The Triggernometry guys are also interested in freedom of expression, but what's the theft here?

[@richdobbs6595]

@@JonathanRossRogers They always end their interviews with that same question. Not a literal theft, since I don't believe that just saying a question earlier gives you intellectual property rights on it. Just a nod to Triggernometry for first using the technique, and a bit of a shade for Robbi not acknowledging where the question came from.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

@@richdobbs6595 Maybe the inspiration to ask the guest for a subject of discussion came from Triggernometry or maybe it came from somewhere else; the wording wasn't identical. I expect that practice has been done on many other shows before and the Triggernometry guys probably got the idea from somebody else. For example, the FLOSS Weekly podcast has featured a very similar question for many years.

[@LynyrdSkynyrd.4Ever]

Wow! What happened to my well thought out, stunningly reasonable comment? It's just gone into the ether ☹️ Why oh why do I waste my time reading and writing comments on KZbin? I'm swearing a mighty oath right now to never again waste my time commenting on KZbin videos 🤢🤬

[@JD867]

Answer: When the people in power call it a crime.

[@dannysullivan3951]

An obvious question intended to bait. Civil disobedience is a crime, but a crime with a long, powerful history in our country and others. See MLK.

[@bernardofitzpatrick5403]

Short answer …. Never! Universities should divest in Israel. Brave students.

[@bjkarana]

Can MAGA students protest and demand divestment from whatever they don't like?

[@sanniepstein4835]

They should give up that money that foreign governments from Arabia to China donate to warp their policies.

[@mikewurlitzer5217]

WOW it sure did not take you long to use soviet like censorship to pull down my 100% truthful and accurate posts.

[@derek8564]

I dont like how some sites are saying if you don't like the way isreal is going about the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians then you support hamas. I hate Hamas but I don't like they way Isreal is going about it either.

[@bilybak2]

So Reason would burn if you had just one pro palestinian voice on your platform?

[@meandwhosearmy5680]

It becomes a crime when it brings forth the truth.