When Is It Too Much Music Theory? (for Jazz Guitar)

[@JensLarsen]

What is the best way to learn Music Theory? Don't Think All The Chords! kzbin.info/www/bejne/poWUY2R-a5x2rMk&pp=gAQBiAQB

[@eddiegolden6972]

“So, don't be afraid to just accept a sound, play it, and figure it out later.” - This is excellent advice for both playing AND composition.👍🏾

[@JensLarsen]

🙏

[@kevindonnelly761]

Modes 'seemed' to be a big deal in the 1980s. Everyone talked about them - and they were all over Guitar Magazines. Guys used to scare the life out of their mates at pub gigs by talking about Mixolydian and Dorian modes. I too used to get a 2B pencil and write 'appropriate' mode names under chords on lead sheets. I remember thinking: 'One day I'll work out how to use this.' 😑 I still haven't. Nowadays, my definition of 'Mode' is: Arpeggio notes with other notes in between them. The 'in between' notes can also be raised an 8ve and used as extensions (if desired). As you don't need to play Modes all the time (it's not the 1980s any more), you won't need to play extensions all the time either. Arpeggios spelt from Triads (M, m, dim, +) and their 7th Chords as well as the ways their tones are connected by passing tones, pivots, enclosures, approach tones - whatever (if they actually are connected), guarantee good voice leading and colour. These are much easier to use, (mostly) live under the fingers and sound like Music. Extensions are just extra colours 'chucked on top.' They are not always essential for harmonic function. It's much better and less confusing to mainly stick to regular M7, m7, V7, m7b5 and dim7 chords / arps. They will work every time. Add extensions later - if you really have to. The regular 7th chord is like a cup of black coffee. You can have the black coffee as it is - or add things to it. You can add milk, cream, sugar, honey, whisky, marshmallows - or whatever else you like. These 'extra additions' work the same ways that extensions work if added to 7th chords. It's just fancy added colour or flavour. Having written this comment, I feel like a hypocrite by saying - it's best to keep things simple. (OMG) 🙄

[@JensLarsen]

I like you take on it, it is pretty compact given how much it sums up 🙂

[@kevindonnelly761]

@@JensLarsen Thanks Jens. I've been a Nerd on this stuff for a long time. I like working it out nearly as much as I like playing guitar. It's my other passion.

[@RodWilliams-m7r]

It was the same around 300 BC in pubs is Macedonia.

[@kevindonnelly761]

@@RodWilliams-m7r It wouldn't surprise me.

[@larrylorenzen2449]

I learned jazz theory from my Dad then Classical Theory at the university and it all made sense. Just two different styles. I like how my classical knowledge influences my jazz compositions.

[@SeanMorgan-t5p]

Again, Jens, I think you nailed another very important point. When I started learning rock guitar back in the seventies within 3 years I was a really good player, as far as rockers go. But I didn't know s*** from apple butter about chord or scale theory. I guess learning that way forces us to use our ear, which in hindsight has been an absolute blessing. I have excellent relative pitch probably from those early days of earring out songs on records. Since I gave up the constant chord analysis that I fell into trying to learn jazz I focused on learning songs and just in 6 months have made huge progress.

[@michaelkaizer85]

Great advice Jens, your chord shorts really leveled up my playing and expanded what ideas i had to work with, I'm not a Jazz musician, but delving into and learning some Gypsy jazz (it speaks to me for whatever reason) has really opened up a lot of doors and inspiration and will be incorporated into my psychedelic rock project. I learn theory as it becomes relevant to whatever I'm working on, it's out of wanting to learn why something works, more than out of necessity.

[@JensLarsen]

Great that you are putting it all to use 🙂

[@ArthurFoxMusic]

Insightful video as always, Jens! I actually got into Jazz as a vehicle FOR learning theory-still wouldn’t consider myself a jazz guitarist but I love listening and trying to identify lines and harmony. From my experience, formal education emphasizes theory, then reasoning, then practice (true of my studies in audio engineering and definitely in civil engineering) but in reality, the best way to learn (especially in the arts) is to practice, then try reasoning your decisions, and then finally finding theory to explain why your choices work the way they do.

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you! I am not sure that formal education really should emphasize theory that much, maybe that is a bit old fashioned?

[@tomcripps7229]

Thanks!

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you for the support Tom!

[@slickyjorj]

Recent subscriber here. Really enjoy your channel. I was a music theory/composition major in college. It's like learning a language, adjectives, verbs, nouns, etc. Good to understand, but not needed to speak well. My ears and playing with great musicians have always been my best teachers.

[@JensLarsen]

Awesome, thank you!

[@michaelzinna6536]

Never judge a chord by its name. Great work again

[@JensLarsen]

Exactly 🙂

[@michaelzinna6536]

@ All these technical terms “tritone” basically just a flat II which is dominant resolved to the I .

[@edkriegepiano]

my teacher's favorite quote: "It is rarely a mysterious technique that drives us to the top, but rather a profound mastery of what may well be a basic skill set. Depth beats breadth any day of the week, because it opens a channel for the intangible, unconscious, creative components of our hidden potential." - Josh Waitzkin

[@tomhynes2908]

This has been what I have been saying to you. Learn songs, copy solos then figure out why. You can stay in your Slomninsky book forever if you are not careful I’ve seen guys stay in their Ted Greene books for year. Total nonsense. I’m I total agreement. Or you stay your room with Slonimsky, Greene, or practice maj scales for 3 hours. Joe Fava at Wayne State wanted me to do that when I was 17. I would not do that. I was already playing Pro. in Detroit. I’m a firm believer in theory but have some common sense. 🙏🏻

[@ThomasGilmore-fi6gb]

I was taught that we can evolve in three stages 1st ... instrumentalist 2nd... musician 3rd.... Artist

[@ricklaino6385]

Always great advice.......and the "pop-ins" too...... Thanks Jens......!!!

[@JensLarsen]

You are so welcome!

[@MartinTimothyTimko]

Exactly. My guitar teacher taught me to play jazz standards and a little music theory. That is enough for me to play at home. BUT: I will never be a professional :)))

[@Sparksnorthern]

Another gem, Jens.

[@WayneEmbree-z6v]

Thanks for this video as it really resonated with me. I am self taught, as a guitar player, but I have always tried to learn from what I was playing and experiment. I base my solo skills on what I feel and hear and know from years of playing. However, there are times when I would like to be more sure of what I could play and I think this is where some formal theory would help. Thanks for your videos.

[@anneonym7346]

Agree 100%

[@WizardOfArc]

Love the Oasis digs

[@corybarnes2341]

Me too, but in all fairness Noel is a Bert Bacharach fan. He did a god awful version of "This Guy's in Love with You", but he had the chords right....

[@brownie_the_3rd]

To me music theory is better used for explaining why something sounded good rather than a means to getting a good sound, if what you play sounds good then they are the 'right' notes and theory can help explain why.

[@Nn-uh2kb]

Love your videos Jens. I should point out to you though, that the improvisional methodology of Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh was *entirely* centered around improvising around the melody. Lee has spoken about this in great length. I don't believe this approach to improvising is only for people who don't know anything or don't like jazz 😂

[@JensLarsen]

That could be, as far as I know, they never commented on my videos

[@donworley7448]

About half-way through this I started to get lost. 😂 I have more to learn about theory, apparently; yet, I totally hear your point. I have more theory under my belt than I have songs in my repertoire. I'm not going to bother trying to understand all of this just now. I have some songs to practice...

[@JensLarsen]

👍

[@steellemonstudios]

0:38 Actual footage of Jens Larsen traveling into the Danish mountains to become a jazz master.

[@JensLarsen]

Exactly! 😎

[@mjpslim]

I saw a bunch of skeletons of jazz students on that mountain 😅. I had to get a helicopter ( proper jazz teacher ) to get me off that mountain

[@JensLarsen]

@@mjpslim 😂😂

[@janjosephmelenhorst1166]

Awesome video, Lars!

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you very much!

[@guitareblhero2584]

great job jens u the best

[@JensLarsen]

🙏

[@cbolt4492]

Great information and nice humour too 🤣

[@kevinjones2145]

Spot on.

[@JordanIs.Online]

This is sure to raise some eyebrows haha. To be honest I've been knee deep in theory for so long it feels like a comfort blanket! Its back to basics for me with chord tones, phrasing, an simplified language. I've been guilty so many times with focusing on fringe scales and various modes that I've yet to use!

[@JensLarsen]

Haha! I think it is worth thinking about. Especially the part that is "you don't NEED to understand everything first"

[@Bubba-zu6yr]

Ya, I studied Jazz Ped. then got my MA in Theory & Comp… I can’t imagine any other way for myself but with any music learning, to each their own. We all learn differently. Good stuff!✌️❤️

[@jamescopeland5358]

Thx Jens, great lesson

[@howardcoleman4748]

Jens hope people can not play to much it's not a race to play as many notes as you can it's bad when you have a bad day but you are making sense to me my friend said keep it simple great advice 🙏 God help me play the right notes because even peoples idols are wrong I like chords sometimes with a slight adjustment that makes the notes we need and no more

[@howardcoleman4748]

Thanks Jens

[@mylesmacleod4306]

I think of music theory as analogous to the grammar of a language. They don't teach you formal grammar in school until you've been talking for 12 years. So you should play for a few years before learning theory.

[@johnny_boi77]

I think music theory gets a bad rep.. I actually think, parts of it are really cool! For example, I found it fascinating to find out what it is that creates such tension in a chord progression.. Then I discovered the II-V-I as an example and now I understand it. It's those V chords. And then you wonder, how is it that Jazz feels so emotional at times in chord progressions, and then you discover secondary dominants. I think secondary dominants are one of the best part of jazz. Ofc there is much more about theory than that, but most people don't even start, because they think it's this torture like exercise..

[@Stratovarious-q7s]

I remember talking to Leonardo Amuedo after a live gig told me he wanted knowledge I said you don't need it .because you're great.......he said but I don't know what I am doing he couldn't analyze it. and giving it a name. It's clear to me we all must find our way "s there's no one way for all so it seems.

[@tomcripps7229]

I don't think I've ever been in danger of being engulfed in too much theory. I'm just trying to carry a tune.😁

[@jackgraham8620]

I though you said without theory, lol. That's all you talk about in this clip!

[@jfitz458]

So, at 10:15n I grok that since there are essentially 3 Maj and 3 min chords, don't think of each min is Dorian (2 scale) and each Maj is played with Ionian (1 scale). Hmm. Then a V chord will sound right with a Mixolydian (5-scale)? Trying this out. TY.

[@JensLarsen]

Use your ears 🙂

[@cbolt4492]

10:11 Scale choices

[@user-bi5pv5lu1r]

Never knew about theory in my entire jazz career

[@JensLarsen]

It's never too late if you want to learn

[@Kevinschart]

How does one play jazz without theory? Of course you knew theory, you just had a different learning path

[@garyrindt9863]

I don't have a good ear for harmony, so i like to use rhythm

[@MrBass4art]

Question" How about learning jazz starting off with the mel bay guitar method then going to the mel bay jazz guitar method by Ronnie Lee?

[@Theprogressivemusician]

What would you suggest to someone who doesn't like jazz but still wants to become a better musician/player? I write my own music and use a lot of advanced harmony, odd meters and innovative structures but everyone around me suggests that i need to learn jazz if I want to become a better musician/player.

[@JensLarsen]

You can study theory without studying Jazz, I would not spend time on music you don't like

[@vindknt]

Watching the start of the video and just going "haha that's me"

[@davedave8608]

i stand with Oasis on this one ;

[@paulpmanhowland7818]

"Denmark actually has no mountains". Hahahaha 😂🤣😂

[@JensLarsen]

😁🙏

[@mac7659]

Lol😂 ....I was really thinking, where are the Danish mountains!? Or did Jens go to Greenland?!😅

[@adiaz1182]

Hi, what kind of guitar are you holding in this video? Thanks!

[@Folkstone1957]

It isn’t better & learning music theory is never a waste of time, that’s a silly comment to make.😊

[@jasonmudgarde286]

Totally agree, I spent years rewinding cassette tapes trying to learn songs with just Ted Greene chord chemistry boook. Later in the 2000s got DVDs and internet which opened my mind more to theory. It's a complementary double edged sword. Many thanks for all your instructional videos.

[@JensLarsen]

🙏

[@MrKravmagadude]

wow. this is a brilliant example of how to make starting to learn to play jazz incredibly....boring. and overly complicated. i think i'll continue to play by ear. that's where the magic happens, and i can actually sound half decent.

[@cbolt4492]

6:24 Practical

[@cbolt4492]

7:24 You (I) don't need to understand everything right away

[@mwicks1968]

Learn some theory, but listen to as much music as possible when you’re not practicing …

[@rockstarjazzcat]

I don’t know man, failures of theory pedagogy may have been the problem. Stella is a lot easier to understand with a few basics and it was the song you wanted to play. Perhaps that’s what you are calling minimal theory. Anyhow, cheers brother, D

[@JensLarsen]

I didn't have lessons theory or guitar at that point, so there were no teachers to blame 😁

[@geoffstockton]

Is it better to learn jazz without any way of describing what you're learning? That's the actual question.

[@JensLarsen]

Well, it is also about whether it makes sense to be able to describe a lot of things that you haven't learned yet.

[@svidrigajlov]

Well this is so true. Vocabulary, licks and tunes we can play are always more important than tons of theory we can’t apply. And advanced theory is for very advanced players, which most of us are not.

[@mer1red]

The debate of music theory versus playing is useless. I learned both in parallel, eg with a GOOD harmony book on the table and the guitar on my lap. Applying immediately what I read. That's all there has to be said. The only disadvantage is that your hair grows gray prematurely due to all the nonsense that you hear on the social media.

[@vanessajazp6341]

Respectfully I disagree. Everyone doing music should have at least a solid foundation of the basics. Chords, inversions, scales, modes, circle of 4ths and 5ths, tabulation and key signatures. That stuff is super important!

[@coreyfleig2139]

Another way to repeat what Jens is saying is this: George Benson said in 1979 that he would play a club and watch people's reactions to his licks. If they liked it, he would keep it in his repertoire. Simple, huh?! Play what sounds good!

[@RobKandell]

Memorize it and spout it instead of playing. Start arguments with the bass player.

[@JensLarsen]

Arguing with the bass player is indeed one of the main goals with Music theory 😁

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

Bass players are frightening

[@JensLarsen]

@@JazzGuitarScrapbook The important thing is to not show fear 😁

[@daveclarkfurther]

I legitimately laughed out loud reading this

[@RobKandell]

I am a guitarist by nature, but spent the vast majority of my career playing bass due to injuries to my barre finger at university. Long story how I was able to play again in 2016, but it ultimately led me to jazz in the here and now. I speak from experience as a bass player. 😎 (Mostly rock.)

[@marktaylor2502]

If you are going to compose the process will be far more efficient if you have a working understanding of the theory

[@josephguitarist925]

7.33 lolololololol

[@MorningCarnival]

I don’t think you can, at least not fully.

[@mitchkahle314]

All of 12-tone music is calculable using just high-school-level math.

[@m7rtim532]

You'd be surprised what high schoolers can do

[@josephguitarist925]

8.54 lol

[@Kevinschart]

Sure dont use theory. Figure out what a major scale is on your own. Come up with your own way to conceptualize a 2 5 1. Instead of calling a chord "half dimished" call it "doo hicky no. 62”. Theory cuts through a lot of the random discovery that a person makes while playing their instrument and gives you a way to organize it.

[@m7rtim532]

Make your own video and explain how smart you are and maybe someone will Care, or post this nonsense on a guy who knows theory and is a good player... Ok dude you missed the point

[@markusplattner]

I don‘t think it makes sense to show a theory book in the trashcan, and then to go on and throw a whole lot of theory at the viewer.

[@JensLarsen]

That will depend on the level of the viewer you are addressing

[@lincolnfish4021]

His point is to learn music theory that is useful for actually playing jazz guitar, not just learning random music theory that you'll never use (that's what I got at least).

[@Marsupilami-b7h]

Man muss die Regeln kennen um sie zu brechen.

[@JensLarsen]

So a 10-year old driving a car will not break the law because he doesn't know it?

[@jazzyjanloe9502]

You basically disprove your point.

[@JensLarsen]

I guess that depends on what you think my point is?

[@JensLarsen]

@ishimoto1597 it is the topic isn't it? Would be more weird to spend the video cooking pasta

[@m7rtim532]

You'd get more views than you'd expect if you titled it the same and then cooked pasta ​@@JensLarsen

[@JensLarsen]

@@m7rtim532 Like this? kzbin.info/www/bejne/hX61hnyol793pq8

[@hardinberger3514]

So ein Unsinn! Natürlich ist es nicht nur notwendig, sondern auch hilfreich, die Theorie zu kennen. Ohne Theorie weiß ein Spieler nicht einmal, wie er einen Akkord spielen muss - auch wenn er nach Noten spielt. Denn alleine schon die Kenntnisse der Noten, Pausen, Tempobezeichnungen, Vortragsbezeichnungen sind Musiktheorie. Und der wenn der Kanalbetreiber irgendwann dann doch meint, dass ein bisschen Theorie notwendig ist, soll er seinem Video gefälligst den richtigen Titel geben - denn d e r ist irreführend und totaler Blödsinn.