When Should You Leave Your Church?

[@MikeWinger]

Good job with this video Gavin. I think it’s very helpful. One thing I feel is needful is helping people navigate when they have to leave a church because of heresy or some other concern that justifies what I would call “leaving loudly,” which includes warningothers of the dangers. How to handle that. Or, other times when a person is leaving the church and it seems morally, right to call others to leave as well. That is a very hard scenario.

[@geoffjs]

Unfortunately, other than the Catholic & Orthodox Churches, all other pretender “churches” teach varying degrees of the truth together with elements of heresy be it baptism being optional, symbolic Eucharist, sola Scriptura, sola fide, OSAS, personal interpretation etc

[@Cletus_the_Elder]

@@geoffjs booo....👎 You can choose Roman Catholic or the number of Orthodox traditions, but not both. By their own definitions, mutually exclusive.

[@geoffjs]

@@Cletus_the_Elder Yes, I’m Catholic!

[@anomos1611]

@@geoffjsRoman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have mutually anathematized each other. Not to play down the modern rapprochement, but to call both equally true does not do justice to their own self-conception historically, and still today.

[@geoffjs]

@@anomos1611 He only est His One True Church ie Catholic which is the pillar & foundation of Truth 1 Times 3:15

[@GospelSimplicity]

Excellent stuff, Gavin. Impressive how you can bounce between Dr. Ortlund and Pastor Gavin so seamlessly in your content.

[@cameronbuckner254]

Please pray for me, brothers and sisters. I was raised independent fundamentalist baptist. I still love my church, but for a year now my wife has been dealing with great health issues. This has limited our church attendance. During this time i have continued to read the Holy Scriptures and gotten into deeper theology than i was raised with, and also church history. I fear leaving my church now because of the many loved ones and family both blood and spiritual I have there. But at the same time so much of my theology has changed. Im wrestling with Calvinism where I was raised free will, i have a much higher view of the sacraments, especially Communion. I am considering visting a local Presbyterian Churh. The me a year ago would have viewed this as heretical. I just want to worship my Savior and learn more about him and I am yearn for deeper theology in Church. I dont know. I apologize if this sounds like i am complaining. God has blessed me more than I deserve. I know i am saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ through and by his death and resurrection. I dont want to be a Christian blown this way or that by different ideas or denominations. But im not sure i agree with alot preached at my current church anymore. I dont know...I will continue to pray and study, and I trust that God will guide me where me amd my wife should go. If you read this long, I apologize. I hope God richly blessed you.

[@geoffjs]

Jesus est His One True Church, Mt 16 18-19 with Peter as His first representative or Prime Minister Isa 22:22 which is the pillar & foundation of Truth 1 Tim 3:15 which Ignatius named as Katholikos or Universal in 107AD which codified your bible in 382AD which has existed for 2000 yrs, in spite of sinful men & is the longest existing human institution. Fact check if you don’t believe me. Without altars & no liturgical sacrificial worship, Protestantism generally, doesn’t have proper worship, so not “church”, but, truthfully, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching!

[@VTdarkangel]

You may want to look up Leighton Flowers. He has some good arguments for a Free Will approach and is well versed in the Bible and theology. He may be able to answer your questions about Calvinism since he used to be one. In any case, I'll be praying for you. I used to go to an IFB church as well, and leaving was jarring, in part because of the circumstances I left under, but also because there were so many people who I knew and loved there.

[@FireflyFlynn]

@cameronbuckner254 the Lord hears your prayers and will make His way clear in time. Being a Baptist myself but with a job that moves me frequently, I have found solace for a time with Presbyterian believers at different times in my life and career. Their’s is a great Christian tradition (I balk at the paedo-Baptist belief myself) and so there can be great profit to your walk and their’s if you join them. That said, this is a spiritual matter, and I know that God will make the way you are to go (stay at your current church or go to the Presbyterian one) clear to you and your wife as you seek Him. May the Lord be with you!

[@cameronbuckner254]

@VTdarkangel I appreciate your comment, I have watched several debates between Mr. Flowers and Calvinists and honestly, I usually come away thinking that both sides have good points, both sides can argue their beliefs from scripture and alot of it comes down to philosophical argumentation about the nature of free will. Maybe I'm just not smart enough haha, but I get lost in the deeper aspects of that argument. Thank you for your kind words and suggestions however! I appreciate it, and yes it is quite jarring, that is a good word for it.

[@FireflyFlynn]

@@cameronbuckner254 the Lord hears your prayers and will make His way clear in time. Being a Baptist myself but with a job that moves me frequently, I have found solace for a time with Presbyterian believers at different times in my life and career. Their’s is a great Christian tradition (I balk at the paedo-Baptist belief myself) and so there can be great profit to your walk and their’s if you join them. That said, this is a spiritual matter, and I know that God will make the way you are to go (stay at your current church or go to the Presbyterian one) clear to you and your wife as you seek Him. May the Lord be with you!

[@JW_______]

When my granfather was a new pastor in the 1950s/early 60s, he was hired at a church in the midwest, of a mainline denomination, that didn't allow people of color to become church members (they could attend but not become members). My grandfather immediately told the church that this was unnacceptable. Some in leadership at the church wanted to put it to a vote, but he told them no, this is not the type question that is up for debate or up to a vote. The church listened. I don't know whether many people left because of it, but was one such scenario where come hell or highwater there was no compromise that would be acceptable.

[@THEspindoctor84]

amen, what an amazing testimony of your father!

[@SeanTemple68]

I heard of you through the recent Ruslan interview, and since I've recently been struggling with continuing with our current church of over 4 years, your wisdom has made it easy for me to decide to stay. I am guilty of consumerism. Although there are a few significant issues i am concerned with, i now know that i should be focused on how i can serve and let God do the rest. Thank you, with love, from Scottsdale, Arizona.

[@whiskeydelta98]

23:31 As a single 26 y.o. engineer who has recently dug into church history, but attends a “low church”, I greatly appreciate the advice here.

[@keeganmet257]

I am greatly encouraged by this video to not leave my church for selfish/arbitrary reasons, and perhaps to serve in some capacity.

[@merg-vh5sx]

I'm sitting down with the Lord, spending 24 hours in Sabbath, and I ask what I should listen to on KZbin. Something to give me guidance. Ended up here, having a long-standing question answered. Thanks Gavin. God bless you and your family.

[@bekscha579]

As a pastor’s wife, I love the idea of you doing a whole video on encouraging church leaders. :)

[@simonwills540]

Thank you for your mention of differences in politics there. As someone who is British and has attended quite conservative reformed churches, it is frustrating seeing people on the internet just make sweeping statements about what a conservative Christian believes when really that's just generally American conservatives.

[@aericabison23]

@@simonwills540 it’s worse when you have Catholic and Orthodox kids make lame memes about Protestants when they’re actually just making fun of caricatures of evangelicals.

[@Peter-qb8gf]

I was raised non-denominational, and in my early/mid-teens, I became heavily involved in the church. I went to every Bible study, Bible camp, ushered on Sunday mornings, and I even worked at the church part-time for a few years. I decided that I wanted to take my faith extremely seriously, and so I did. At some point, also, I started to become very interested in theology. And just like that, I was reading the Church fathers, classical protestants, historical theology, etc. I became heavily attracted to the high-church liturgy and sacramental theology, and the worship at my church just began to feel so empty. I ached deeply for the true Body and Blood of Christ. I thought about becoming Roman Catholic, but stuck it out for a few years in the non-denominational church, reading as much as I could, eventually getting my heart and mind set on Confessional Lutheranism. This last June, just after I turned 18, I visited a LCMS parish near me, and after one week, I knew I was finished with the non-denominational Church. I got confirmed about a month ago, and am very happy. It certainly hurt, and still does hurt, to leave the church community that I had grown up with, that fed me and nourished me and brought me to the waters of Holy Baptism, for which I am eternally thankful. However, I came to the conclusion, at one point, that because we must abandon everything for Christ, and devote ourselves to him with every fiber of our being, in this case that meant breaking communion with one congregation to be joined to another where I would receive Christ sacramentally.

[@TimC1517]

Awesome to hear man! I was raised and still am an LCMS Lutheran, but I’ve spent a lot of time in non-denominational circles and have a lot of love for them. Very happy to hear about you finding Confessional Lutheranism and about your confirmation!

[@renanlima8846]

Man...I'm reading this with tears in my eyes, because I am on the same path. I grew up in The Church Of Christ (a non-denomination), and i still thing they are good Christian, not heretical and they taught me a lot. But more i study the history of the Church,more i m leaning towards Lutheranism. I still attend CoC, but I think that, eventually, I will become a Confessional Lutheran. Here in Brazil, the LCMS is called IELB (Igreja Evangelica Luterana do Brasil)

[@blb116]

This is going to be a common story over the next 10-20 years. Men who grew up in very low church contexts (IFB, non-denom, Dispensational Baptist etc) who started to take their faith seriously and started reading their Bible's intentionally and reading heavy doctrine. Once that starts it's very hard to ignore what you've learned and the yearning for something bigger than yourself grows. I know I've felt it. I grew up in a non-denom Dispensational church. I never understood the eschatology, nor the church Israel distinction (Eph 4:5-6 was big for me as a teen). A couple years ago I took up reading and my faith and walk exploded into life! I fully understand why I'm not a dispensationalist now and also have grown in appreciation for other Christian Traditions. I have learned that a lot of Biblical issues and controversy's are frocked with nuance and need to be approached with grace as opposed to immediate condemnation. Gavin's channel has been one of many such outlets that have taught me so much and I'm thankful for that.

[@SolaFide-q2b]

@@blb116 If your willing to know more about theology and the problems with low Church, I would highly recommend reading a book titled “Has American Christianity Failed?”, by Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller, it changed a lot of my convictions as a former Baptist and ultimately became Lutheran.

[@outsomewhereventuring9364]

@@blb116I read your comment and I gotta say im in the exact same boat but im still trying to figure it out because I have always gone to non-denom or dispensationalist church and for me there was just to many things I found every hypocritical and I felt like they very severely miss interpret some passages and it basically ruins how you view the rest of scripture in it self and I always felt very confused even if I asked the pastor a question and he would give his answer and it just never felt like the " truth " I finally removed my self from that belief system and feel a lot more peace of mind and feel as tho I can actually understand what I'm reading I haven't figured out where I want to go to church next tho because it seems a lot of churches teach something contrary to scripture so im trying not to be knit picky and just be willing to serve the lord how ever he wants which I know is being involved in the local church

[@LightBringer127_dragonart]

I love my church. I am 18 and have attended all my life. I have issues such as chronic fatigue and autism that make going to church very hard work. (I am easily worn out, and all the people and music can be overwhelming.) I also have a yearning for deeper theology. My pastor does great nerdy talks but he’s very busy, so those only happen four times a year. The youth groups are very loud and stressful, and I haven’t been able to join a home group yet. I love learning about God, but due to these factors, only go to church around once a month. It’s really hard. Please pray for my walk with Jesus.

[@cupfulofeathers]

I’m the same way; I’m getting evaluated for autism in May. I used to be at church multiple times a week back when I was a pastor’s daughter for 15 years, totally willingly because I enjoyed my volunteer work. Now that my parents have retired from ministry and I’ve moved to a new city with my husband (also a pastor’s kid), we’re taking a break from church volunteer work and I don’t pressure myself to go to church every single Sunday due to sensory overwhelm and social exhaustion. I’ve continued to learn more about scripture and theology in this season of rest from constant church participation; I love podcasts by biblical scholars, pastors, and theologians. We’re looking for a church where the music is more comfortable for my ears where we will volunteer in the future, but in the meantime we enjoy intimate fellowship with our other believing friends, similar to a NT house church. Before the majority of people were literate, traditional church meetings were necessary in order for people to learn scripture. But now that we can study scripture for ourselves, the purpose and structure of church has shifted and I think that’s a good thing! So while it’s important to have a supportive faith community, it doesn’t have to look strictly like meeting for two hours every Sunday morning in a big building. Sending gentle hugs!

[@gigahorse1475]

I’m autistic and I’ve found some churches are way more overstimulating than others. Usually it’s nondenominational churches that have loud worship. The Reformed Baptist churches I’ve attended were very small and didn’t blast their music which makes things much easier. Since you love your current church, my advice would be to get earplugs. Since I started using earplugs, those loud services are easier to get through. I have near invisible ones by Loop but there are other low profile brands. If those aren’t enough and you’re feeling brave, you could start wearing ear defenders. Other people might question that but if it helps you attend church it’s best to do what’s pleasing to God and not man. But I like wearing ear plugs because they are enough for me and I don’t get questions about them because they are so low profile. I am praying for you!

[@gigahorse1475]

@@cupfulofeathers I’d disagree with you that we no longer need to attend church in-person. While it is a blessing we have access to theology, Hebrews still says we must not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Church was never supposed to be just a place to learn, like it’s merely a college class. If there are any ways you can combat the sensory overwhelm and social pressure then I’d recommend trying to figure that out before cutting back on church attendance.

[@alicehuseland6846]

Praying for you, brother!

[@onwardupwardfurtherin]

I am in my 40's now, but have been struggling with chronic illness since I was young. At this point, I'm not typically able to attend church on a Sunday morning. Believe me, I pushed myself for as long as I could! However, my health is just quite bad, and I am so unwell my husband and daughter also miss church when I try to go...because they have to take me home. A couple things that have helped me: a) When I could still manage mornings, we switched to a smaller church that was less overwhelming. This helped a lot. b) I prioritized participating in a small group. These are in the evenings, and I am more likely able to manage that. Small group is also much less stimulating (in terms of overwhelming sounds and sights). c) I prioritize going out to prayer meetings, as I'm able, since these are often less stimulating as well. There are also churches who have visitation programs. For those who have very poor health indeed, and are mostly shut-in, it might be wise to be part of a church that will provide visitation for you, and pastors who will bring communion to you. Joni and Friends has excellent support! I emailed them, and they were able to tell me a list of churches that would be better equipped to love those with some sort of chronic illness. And I'm in Canada, not in the States (where the ministry is located)! So they are also a great resource! joniandfriends.org Praying for you!

[@Presbapterian]

I feel convicted by so many points you raised here. Thank you so much for this very pastoral video, Dr. Ortlund.

[@savortheflavour]

Thank you so much for this careful teaching, Gavin! I have been feeling deep discontent and frustration with my local Church of Christ church, but don't want to leave because my family and I have been there for 12 years and have many close friends there. I'm helping where I can, but yearn for more ways to serve, for more theologically rich teaching (and small groups!), and to establish friendships with other Christian young adults (there's mostly seniors at my church!). I would feel more comfortable going to a church where baptismal regeneration isn't a part of their theology, either. I'm discouraged because leadership problems, shrinking membership, and lack of opportunities to serve have been going on for years, and nothing seems to be improving--only a few people even want to see a change. Now we're struggling to even find a new pastor after our previous minister passed away about a year ago. Praying for wisdom and God's peace to know when it's His Will for me to move to a different church.

[@ShamgarSoA]

As a fellow Church of Christer, I pray that God guides you in your decision making, and that he will show you clearly where he wants you! I understand how you feel.

[@savortheflavour]

@@ShamgarSoAthank you so much!

[@alicehuseland6846]

In a similar situation. Will be praying for the comfort and courage of the Lord as you plough forward. He will hold you fast!

[@savortheflavour]

@@alicehuseland6846❤

[@Bryan-Lawrence]

I was in the same boat. Church of Christ deconstruction where there were a lot of extended family members involved. Let me know if you have any questions

[@taylore22]

Thankful for a video on this topic. I go to a non-denominational church but their theology is so biblical, the preaching is faithful to God and His word, there are so many ministries that are diverse and fit the needs of our community, and it’s hard because ever since I found your channel I just have a lot of questions that I’m wrestling through none the less I don’t think I should leave the church I’m at now, but I do like to look at other congregations here and there and see what they do differently. But often times I find myself looking at my current church and being grateful and realizing God has me there for a reason.

[@jimyoung9262]

I'm glad to see this video. There was a lot of speakers in the popular Christian Apologetics space advocating leaving churches over politics. I shudder to think of the damage that was caused by that. Thanks for what you do Dr. O.

[@BSDrumming]

The politics he mentored were in regards to healthcare. I’m sure he doesn’t apply that to political topics like abortion and lgbt propaganda.

[@ChrisKoineGreekPhys1]

Thank you for sharing this video, Dr.Ortlund--a very pertinent topic indeed! I was raised Romanian Orthodox Christian in NYC. Through encounters with Romanian Baptists in my neighborhood as a teenager, my parents and I were invited to go to their church and did, and a seed was planted in my soul. I later chose to become Baptist in my mid- to late-30s in Cleveland, Ohio, and got baptized in November 2021. We moved to Indiana in December 2022 and found a local Baptist church, which we attended (and became members of) for about half a year. I became particularly disenchanted because of the infrequency of the Lord's Supper/Communion with it being just once a year. We left that church and moved to a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) church, where we also became members (on Reformation Day in 2023). This church felt like a good balance between what I grew up with and what my wife grew up with, and the kids were adjusting quite well, but overall we didn't feel like it worked well for us in terms of the community feel. So, we went back to the previous Baptist church we attended, but the issue of the infrequency of communion is still a matter that concerns me. When we were going to the Romanian Baptist church, Communion was once a month, which was something I was ok with despite it being a commemorative practice (as opposed to the real body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Orthodox Church), but with the frequency falling even further, there's more discomfort for me. Is this a concern over which one could/should leave? Keep up the great work, Dr. Ortlund, and the Lord's blessings on your ministry!

[@SolaFide-q2b]

It’s really nice to see your family got well into the Lutheran Church, and from a Lutheran perspective, frequency of the Eucharist is very important, that has always been the practice since the Early Church, we also believe in the presence of the real Body and Blood of Christ in and under the Eucharist. But no Church is perfect, may the Lord guide you and your family in your search for a Church.

[@EcclesiaInvicta]

Lutherans also believe in the real presence of the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, but the Problem with the Orthodox Eucharist is its a Propitiatory Sacrifice, meaning Christ is getting sacrificed again and again rather than being once and for all on the Cross.

[@KM-zn3lx]

ChrisKoineGreekPhys1...I know more of what you feel concerning communion, being a RC for more years than not. However, Jesus' body isn't in the communion bread/wine. Otherwise, he'd be sacrificed every sabbath day all over the world. He came and died once not many times. We no longer have to sacrifice animals over and over and through a priest (man), instead Jesus the last and highest Priest served as sacrifice for all who believe. Read the book of Hebrews, that helps. God bless you and your struggle.

[@ChrisKoineGreekPhys1]

@@SolaFide-q2b , thank you for your message. As far as the practice of the early Church being frequent Eucharist--that's what I used to think. I'm not so sure anymore. As I have been reading a bit more on this recently, in particular through books and on the Logos platform, it seems that certainly in the first two centuries after our Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection, the historical record shows that Communion or the Lord's Supper was taken in conjunction with a communal meal (banquet). Here's what Logos has to say in The Lexham Bible Dictionary when searching for "Lord's Supper": Historicity of the Last Supper Most interpreters find continuity between the Last Supper and traditions about Jesus’ meals with others throughout His ministry, highlighting the probability of an event like this. Furthermore, the early witness of Paul (1 Cor 11:23-26, written in the early 50s; see below) argues for a likely remembrance of some meal memorializing Jesus’ last days. Paul likely learned this tradition in one his early trips to Jerusalem after his commissioning as an apostle, which took place at most only a few years after the death of Jesus. Therefore, if Jesus Himself did not institute a meal like the one found in the Gospel accounts, the tradition must have originated with the earliest Jerusalem church (Koenig, Feast, 10-12). The Lord’s Supper in the Late First and Early Second Centuries In the early church, the practice of the Lord’s Supper gradually changed from a communal meal to a ritual involving just bread and wine. The covenant and eschatological elements of the ceremony were slowly eclipsed by an understanding of the Lord’s Supper as a sacrifice performed by professional clergy. The Lord’s Supper became a universal practice of the earliest Christians. By virtue of its connection with Jesus’ Last Supper, it was likely practiced in the context of a full meal. That is, the early Christians would gather for a communal meal, usually on Sunday night, and the specifically ritualistic aspects concerning the bread and cup would occur in this context. Over the next few decades this link between meal and ritual was weakened and finally broken so that the Lord’s Supper became entirely a sacral rite. Alongside this development, the understanding of the Eucharist shifted from a covenant-establishing event that anticipated the reign of God to a bloodless sacrifice, although the belief of the rite as in some way allowing one to commune with the present Lord never fully disappeared. Didache The Didache is a document dated to the first century AD, instructing Christians in ethics and proper practices. Here we still find the Lord’s Supper practiced in the context of a full meal, and the anticipation of the kingdom is still strong. The author specifically notes that all outsiders-all those who have not been baptized-are to be excluded from partaking in the meal, marking the first instance of any attempt to restrict the practice to believers. Later Developments By the third century, the link between the Lord’s Supper and the communal meal was declining and had disappeared altogether in some places. Eucharistic services were found in cemeteries and separated from worship in other unique rites. The bishop or priest came to be seen as the sole agent involved in the rite, rather than the people as a whole. By the fourth century, as Christianity became more mainstream, it became common for members to attend church without participating in the Eucharist at all, since the sacrament required rigorous scrutiny of one’s life; this encouraged the view that the Lord’s Supper was an activity for the clergy and not common members (Bradshaw, Origins, 114-15, 142-43). At this point, the Eucharist was well on its way toward becoming a sacerdotal rite fully removed from the common life of the Christian community. The Lord’s Supper and Other Religious Meals in Antiquity Although Passover was important theologically for the Christian understanding of the Lord’s Supper, the Supper was not celebrated as a Passover meal in the early church. The Lord’s Supper did, though, draw on the Graeco-Roman banquet tradition. The early Christians were not the only group in the ancient world that partook in ritual meals tinged with religious significance. The relationship between the Lord’s Supper and these other various meals has been the source of repeated examination. References Brian Gamel, “Lord’s Supper,” ed. John D. Barry et al., The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016). Koenig, John. The Feast of the World’s Redemption: Eucharistic Origins and Christian Mission. Harrisburg, Pa.: Trinity, 2000. Bradshaw, Paul F. Eucharistic Origins. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004.

[@ChrisKoineGreekPhys1]

@@KM-zn3lx , I agree with our Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice being sufficient, and once for all (Hebrews 7:27), which I am very aware of. The question of the frequency of the administration of the Lord's Supper is of most interest/concern to me, as this is not necessarily spelled out explicitly in Scripture. At Pentecost, the Apostle Peter gave a sermon in Jerusalem, in which three thousand souls listened to the Gospel and were baptized, and it says in Acts 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. I think where it says "breaking bread"--it's referring to Communion/the Lord's Supper, which was done daily, but again, this was at Pentecost, 50 days after the Lord's resurrection. It says in 1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (English Standard Version, ESV). This does not prescribe a certain frequency, however, but says "as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup".

Thanks

[@Guguchina]

Wise video, thank you for the scenarios. Hoping the best for those who are discerning or leaving their church ❤

[@draz39]

Gavin, thank you for your encouraging video! From watching your videos, it’s clear you’re very caring about pastors and their encouragement and well-being. I think it’d be really helpful creating a video guiding pastors in determining when to leave a church they pastor. There’s so many questions that may run through a pastor’s head: am I disobeying God by leaving this church? Is God calling me somewhere else/how do I determine His leading in this decision? What are the qualifiers for a pastor leaving a church? Speaking from experience, I think pastors may struggle with discerning where God wants them (as silly as that may sound, pastors don’t have it all figured out either when it comes to God’s personal call on their lives/ministry)!

[@landlubbber]

Been going to my church for a fair few years. The worship and sermons certainly aren't to my taste but the big thing I've been struggling with is that we haven't had a plain presentation of the basic gospel in such a long time that it aches. Everything is largely above board regarding orthodoxy but I always come away wondering what it all has to do with Jesus. I'm certainly not the most teachable person in the world but it really feels so dry that it makes you wonder why we bother with singing and lectures if they're not going to be about the cross

[@pdrsan993]

I enjoy these practical videos a lot Dr.Ortlund. Your work is highly appreciated

[@gracenotes5379]

When leaving a church where your absence will leave an important function unfilled until a replacement is found, consider offering a reasonable transition time for someone to be found/trained etc. This degree of cooperation is a good minimum to strive for, in the spirit of Romans 12:18, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all."

[@alicehuseland6846]

A very wise addendum.

[@primitivaroots]

It depends a lot on the reason why you leaving. There are situations where the best thing is to go as fast as possible.

[@gracenotes5379]

@@primitivaroots True, which is why I suggested one should _consider_ leaving non-disruptively. Situations involving emotional distress, sexual or spiritual abuse are obviously examples where my advice doesn't apply.

[@gardengirlmary]

Pastor Ortlund thank you for sharing your faith Enjoy your videos

[@jasminbiggs1144]

Thank you, Gavin, for your thoughtful video! I appreciate your guidance for our own church journey. The one small tweak to these guidelines that I would suggest is to your final point. I minister to people in the deconstruction community, many of whom have experienced severe trauma in churches that, for all intents and purposes, function as cults. Think fundamentalist, Duggar-style environments. For people escaping high-control forms of Christianity, I would not suggest leaping quickly into the next church down the street. It is okay to spend time healing, studying, and visiting churches for an extended period of time before committing to the next body. Similar to a divorced abuse victim who should immediately not leap into a new marriage, an abused churchgoer needs time to heal and develop discernment regarding what healthy church looks like before they will be equipped to make a safe choice. Anyway, thanks again for your ministry!

[@ebercondrell6603]

Scenario 3 happened to me last year. It was very painful but we moved on from our nondenominational congregation to a much more solid church in the EPC that was able to provide real accountability in leadership. I really appreciate you saying that scenario 3 is a valid reason, even at the time the leaders of our former church told me multiple times that I was wrong for wanting to leave.

[@GordonOpp]

I’ve been in my Bible church 20 years. I’ve taught numerous adult SS classes and have filled the pulpit several times over the years. Summer of 2023 I took an adult class of about 50 people through your book on Theological retrieval. There was significant pushback as well as significant excitement about opening our minds up a bit. Pushback seems to have won out. I’ve not been asked to teach since. They hired a new pastor of adult ministries from Macarthur’s seminary. It seems to me that our church values sound, Biblical doctrine (knowledge) over living out our faith together. So, for the last year and half I’m much more into podcasts like yours and a few others, but I’m kind of going it alone.

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

Although I'm not a calvinist, pushing back on Gavin's book of understanding the historical theological road map and reclaiming Christian identity by Protestants is very close minded. I'm not sure that I could go to that church either, no matter how good their potluck dinner's were.

Thank you Gavin for this thoughtful and nuanced advice. And thank you for highlighting all those incredibly important gems from CS Lewis.

[@jtbasener1810]

I love what you said here! I am 18 years old, nearing the cusp of transferring from community college, and am greatly hungering for a more liergical tradition. While I could theoretically go to a different church than my non-denominational childhood church, which I attend with my family, I really feel like I wouldn't dream of doing that with all of how healthy it is. Our pastor has the opposite tastes in music as I, but he may be the best pastor I've ever had. Staying here is actually really teaching me to find the good in godly people who may not be entirely like me. So, while I intend on finding a more liturgical tradition when I move out, I can't help but stay with my beloved non-denominational childhood church.

[@FirstLast-rb4jv]

Thank-you Gavin for your wise council concerning this matter. Very timely in my case. Have a great day!!!

[@willemvisagie27]

I love the new setup Gavin!

[@kylie5741]

Thanks Dr. Ortlund, I think you give a lot of really important factors to consider. In my own journey, I was raised in the Evangelical/Charismatic world, but I am now going to an LCMS church (not confirmed yet, still going through catechesis). For anyone who might find this helpful, here are a couple things I overlooked in the past that I now consider a bit more important in deciding on a church. 1. Normalization of many congregants not knowing any pastor in the church. This is typically a problem at larger churches. There are too many congregants, so it is normal for people to never have any sort of relationship with any pastor unless they are in the inner circle/clique of the church. 2. Not taking the sacraments seriously, whatever this means to you theologically. For example, do pastors at least give verbal warnings that only Christians should partake in the Lord's supper? (My church practices closed communion, which I think is a good practice, but I recognize that not everyone will agree with that.) Is baptism taken seriously? (I would disagree a little with the video on this point, mostly because I have witnessed some unhealthy practices pertaining to baptism, beyond just whether people are allowed to baptize their infants.) 3. Is worship simply imperfect, or is it irreverent? I believe we shouldn't be overly picky with worship, but I think it can go too far in the wrong direction. Are the songs professing theological truth? Is the worship made to be about the worship leaders to the point where it becomes worshiptainment or a production? In high school and to some extent college, I experienced worship that was emotionally manipulative (if you weren't crying you were the odd one out) and very performative (all focus being directed at the stage, lots of lights/fog machine). It felt so incredibly wrong and unhealthy at the time, and now I wish I wouldn't have ignored it. Thankfully, I have actually seen a lot of churches making an effort to reform how worship is practiced so I'm hopeful that things will continue to go in a good direction. I do pray for the charismatic world on this point because I think there is a large problem of people judging one another's faith by how expressive they are in worship, to the point of people doubting their own salvation because they're not having a particular spiritual experience. Not all charismatic churches are like this of course, I'm just noting an overall problem that I'm hopeful can be solved, for the sake of my friends who are still in that tradition. 4. In terms of the sermons, is the Gospel being preached? Do they emphasize Jesus' death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins? Is the theology (overall) correct? Do they have an attitude of respect for God's Word? 5. Has the pastor been ordained or trained, whatever that entails for your tradition?

[@ministeriosemmanuel638]

May I add in No. 4, don’t forget the Incarnation! The Lutheran Church really emphasize that, our salvation didn’t begin with Jesus dying on the cross or in the resurrection, it began on the Incarnation! As St. Athanasius said “The Son of God became Man so that we might become like God”

[@kylie5741]

@@ministeriosemmanuel638 Yes, very true. The churches that I went to in the past oversimplified pretty much everything and a lot of that type of theology was not present

[@ministeriosemmanuel638]

@@kylie5741 Amen. I would also suggest getting a book called “Has American Christianity Failed?” By Pator Bryan Wolfmueller He also got a YT channel that deals with a lot of topics. The Book covers a lot of topics of Lutheran theology, specially dealing with the errors of Evangelicalism. Hope this book would help you in your journey!

[@ministeriosemmanuel638]

Amen. May I also suggest getting a book called “Has American Christianity Failed?” by Bryan Wolfmuller. It has a lot of topics covering Luthern theology, as well as dealing with the errors of Evangelicalism, it was a great book to read that changed a lot of my convictions. Hope his book would help you in your journey!

[@kylie5741]

@@ministeriosemmanuel638 Thanks for the recommendation! I love Pastor Wolfmueller's youtube channel so I'll probably make time to read that!

[@aericabison23]

Idk how many people might have thought of this, but there is a danger of deep loneliness in churches with lots of congregants. This problem might especially affect kids, teens and young adults. It’s worse if you’re an introvert and don’t have much of a hold on making friends and socialising.

[@jeffk6673]

This is a great point. Thank you!

[@aericabison23]

@ wc 🙏🏻 I shared that based on my own experience actually. I didn’t actually expect someone else to get my point ♥️ Overall I don’t think churches have yet considered the needs of introverts or just people who have trouble socialising. Everyone is sort of expected to be all smiles and throwing around hugs and handshakes just bc.

[@jeffk6673]

​@@aericabison23 I attended a very large church for quite some time and know the "feeling lost" sentiment. Churches tilt towards extrovert tendencies simply because of how social and communal they are. I think that's why people like C.S. Lewis (seemingly quite introverted) had reluctance towards attennding them. He came to the conclusion that he was obligated regardless of that feeling. I think that's why we need to try to balance "what we get out of it" and "what we bring to it." Thank you for sharing. 😊

[@aericabison23]

@@jeffk6673 in my case it was like “I want to contribute but I don’t know how”. Avenues for me to do stuff like lead singing and so on were restricted bc our church had a weird policy that only kids who were baptised could actively participate in church activities (if you weren’t baptised yet, you just had to follow the baptised folks; it didn’t count if you’re family was all baptised or if you’d just been born again). What compounded the problem was that my church denomination is one of those that thinks Xmas and Easter are pagan so we don’t celebrate those either. I only got to celebrate those at school. Every year I made a lil Nativity scene out of paper. I still do it bc it’s fun and a nice way to keep it Christ-centred. On top of that, a preacher once came saying that putting in too much theatrics and dramatisations distracts from the purity of God’s Word, so our Sunday school anniversaries got rid of anything that was like a stage play or drama (everything was just a group lecture). So then it was like “I am an introvert, but I like drama and acting, but I am not baptised yet and we don’t do anything fun, so my hands are tied”. Basically all avenues for me to contribute to church life in ways that I felt best suited me or would give me a chance to socialise and have friends were cut off. I have often thought of leaving my denomination or at the very least reforming it. I think I’ll add that to my prayer list. I want church to be fun and welcoming to everyone.

[@jsbk4]

Thank you for this Gavin! I'd love to hear more specifically about issues to look for with the leadership, especially the shepherd/pastor. What does a true and Godly shepherd look like in terms of interaction with and care for the congregation/flock that God has entrusted to him/them? I go to a big church with no official membership. I appreciate that anyone can come in and hear the Word but there's a huge lack of discipleship, real community and access to the pastor/leadership that feels concerning, especially for those in need and struggling (and there are a lot in need and suffering in a big church). The church I go to is so big that the pastor/leadership not only doesn't know most people who attend regularly and are part of the flock, they don't even know their names. How can a good church have a shepherd/leadership that doesn't know the flock God has entrusted to them? How would they know a sheep was lost or wandering if they don't even know who is in the flock God gave to them to care for? I would love to hear more about what true Biblical shepherding and leadership looks like lived out as God intended. I don't know if it's the American church specifically or if it's an issue all around the world but church feels so corporate now a days. So focused on growth and numbers and what seems like personal ambition for leadership (how many church channel youtube views of sermons, how many ppl raised their hands for salvation on Sunday, how many people are streaming live during service, etc and yes these are things I hear about from the pulpit at my church). This church is one that God has used mightily in the past in my life to grow (many years ago) but now it feels it's straying with new leadership. I feel torn between knowing whether or not I'm being critical or if these are concerns that are legit.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

I don’t agree with the College Student scenario cuz I faced it myself and made the opposite choice I was Presbyterian but all my friends went to this Bible church. I went there a few times with them but soon I decided that it was Presbyterian or nothing so I went by myself to a beautiful local conservative Presbyterian church And it’s good I did, cuz that “Bible church” my friends were going to was Steve Lawson’s church 💀

[@TruthUnites]

Yikes! Glad you made the right choice

[@jonathanstensberg]

Also, college students can often experience Christian fellowship with students of other denominations through student organizations, such as intervarsity, cru, etc. Unfortunately, however, students often treat those orgs as a church substitute rather than a church supplement.

[@wondergolderneyes]

I work with college students and find that many are clueless about or actually disagree with denominational distinctives but are still unwilling to try a different denomination. I wish their loyalty came from knowledge and conviction.

[@g.williams2047]

It's the man himself. Seems like you dodged a bullet.

[@the-conscious-vibe]

Thank you, Gavin, for this thoughtful and well-structured discussion on a topic that many Christians grapple with today. Your balanced approach to discerning whether to stay or leave a church community reflects a sincere desire for spiritual maturity and fidelity, which are values deeply rooted in the Catholic tradition. I was particularly struck by your emphasis on fidelity to the local church. As Catholics, we understand that our faith is inherently communal, not merely individual. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-27), and we are called to be active members of that Body, bearing with one another in love and building up the community, even when our preferences are challenged. This echoes St. Paul's teaching in Ephesians 4:2-3, where he urges us to strive for unity and peace within the Church. Your encouragement to avoid a consumeristic mindset is especially relevant today. In Catholic teaching, participation in the Eucharistic celebration is the "source and summit of the Christian life" (Lumen Gentium, 11). Our attendance at Mass is not about entertainment or personal preference but about worshiping God and receiving the grace He offers through the sacraments. Even in situations where the homilies or music may not be ideal, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist remains our ultimate nourishment and focus. I also appreciated your emphasis on humility, which is essential when addressing issues within a church community. St. Francis de Sales reminds us that 'humility is the foundation of all the other virtues.' Approaching our concerns with a spirit of prayer, charity, and submission to God’s will helps us discern whether we are being called to stay and contribute to the sanctification of our parish or whether we are being led elsewhere for good and legitimate reasons. Your guidance on handling transitions with grace aligns with the Catholic Church’s emphasis on unity. Even when we feel compelled to leave a parish for justifiable reasons, the Catechism reminds us to act in a way that preserves the communion of the Church. Offering prayers for the community we leave and maintaining respect for its leaders and members helps us avoid division and scandal while honoring Christ's prayer that His followers "may all be one" (John 17:21). Finally, I found your call to be 'easily edified' particularly profound. In Catholic spirituality, this is akin to cultivating a heart of gratitude and openness to God’s work in all circumstances. As St. Thérèse of Lisieux teaches us, 'Everything is grace.' If we approach our parish life with that mindset, even imperfect situations can become opportunities for growth and sanctification. Thank you again for presenting such a thoughtful and nuanced framework. It’s a helpful guide for Catholics and Protestants alike as we seek to serve Christ faithfully in our church communities. God bless you!

[@geoffjs]

Excellent post with meaningful info about the profound nature of the Catholic Mass, true liturgical sacrificial worship which every Protestant should experience at least once!

[@Ecumenicallywired]

Thank you for this post needed this personally

[@scp025]

This video was perfectly timed for me. Thank you, Gavin!

[@rebekahquinley8093]

Edifying. I may send this to some of the students at our church who are going off to college

[@jansonison6283]

College student here. I ended up leaving my SBC seeker-sensitive church after encountering the doctrine of Real Presence in Communion. After I began to look at it as something more than a nice symbol of remembrance, my heart began to ache for it, and my church's quarterly practice of it became unbearable. I am now in a PCA church with weekly communion, and I don't think I could ever be in a church that practices otherwise.

[@andyvisuals]

My church has only done it 2 times a year! (I grew up in one where it was only done once a year!) I'd feel an amazing rush if we could muster quarterly... but I do believe it should be done even more often, so often that could begin supplant either the off-wall 'worship' time or shorten some sermons...

[@toddvoss52]

Very wise advice in this video Gavin. I can see some aspects of its application to changing parishes or even changing rites or uses in the Roman Catholic Church. Some similar considerations

[@alicehuseland6846]

Thank you for your encouragements and exhortations, Dr. Ortlund. My husband and I are in a position where we have been asking the question of our family leaving or staying in our church and this has given us great food for thought. Especially the exhortations to bathe the situation in prayer, seek to eliminate fear, and meet in person with leadership. We’d love prayer for the Lord to be glorified in our staying or in our leaving and for Christ’s body to be built up in it all. Our scenario best lines up with #3 with some potential secondary issue (though significant) doctrine changes with our pastor (and only elder right now) probably moving. Pray that our church would seek out and call solid, godly men to shepherd this local body and that it would flee from the persuasions and false promises of unbiblical fundamentalism!

[@TheGospelTool]

Appreciate this pastoral perspective, so good for the body to hear the importance of fidelity to the local church. Such a good point to take into account how much our gifts are able to be exercised, it’s important for each member of the body to be functioning alongside the others.

[@nathanielhillmer3591]

Casual hoodie Gavin is a game changer

[@benavans6129]

😂 we may never recover

[@gilwaa]

I think the tips in this video were prudent, Dr. Ortlund. I’d like to comment on the scenario you mentioned of boring preaching and cheesy worship. Sometimes, when we notice a deficiency in our local church, we can serve the body by shoring up those deficiencies with our strengths. If you notice the church is disorganized with poor communication, perhaps you have a gift of administration that can be used to help organize people. If the worship is cheesy, perhaps you are a gifted musician who can contribute rather than criticize. Consider, prayerfully and in love, if there is a way to serve your church in the ways you notice aren’t as excellent as they could be.

[@KM-zn3lx]

Those are some good points but I found Pastors who teach a book according to their school's philosophy more than theology don't care to listen and are often puffed up in arrogance, along with musicians in worship team...my husband's church repeatedly played some Bethel/Hillsong music that was bereft of Biblical truth. I got sick of the New Pastor, wife, etc. pushing light spirituality when the retired one had been a theological scholar. Once you taste meat you're not satisfied with milk!

[@Guguchina]

​@KM-zn3lx I'm sorry you had that experience. It's worth a shot asking to help always. Even if it's something like sermons, maybe there is an option to suggest starting a bible study to fill that gap.

[@Basicallybiblical116]

Actually just went through this process a couple of months ago. I sat down with the pastor of my previous church and went through very high level why we were leaving. I didn't dive into specific's mainly because I felt it would probably lead to a blowing up of the situation. It was painful but I think leaving a church should be if you were doing it correctly. We tried out a couple other local churches, decided on the one we would attend and became members. What's really sad is that since leaving we have basically been shunned by many of the people at the previous church. Have also been informed of some comments, that I later went back and heard for myself, that were made from the pulpit that are pretty obviously about us that are negative. It's very sad to see, but confirms for me that we made the right decision. There is a lot of wisdom in this video! I hope it blesses many people! I know I would have felt much better and more confident in our decision prior to making it if I had been able to see this before.

[@VTdarkangel]

I left the church I grew up in years ago. The reason I (and my family) left was because of bad leadership in the church. Without getting too much into the gory details, there was a new pastor who was playing financial games with the church to force a situation on the church and my father, being a business man, caught on and called him on it. The pastor then used the biases of a significant portion of the congregation and deacons to turn them against my father. I know Gavin mentioned trying to leave on good terms, but I don't know how one does so in that situation. I was left in a bitter and angry state. I continued to attend a church because I felt a duty to my parents, but it took me years to get to a point where I wanted to attend a church again on my own.

[@nalkarj2840]

First of all, thanks as always to Dr. Ortlund-I love these pastoral videos. He very kindly responded to a comment I made on a video of his a few months ago, so we’ve already chatted a bit about the topic I’m going to bring up. But basically I’m wondering what he would say about switching not only churches (i.e., parishes) but also denominations. I’m a cradle Catholic who has been going on a religious back-and-forth for a few years now, and I can’t figure out whether or not to switch to a Protestant church, most likely Anglicanism but possibly Lutheranism. I won’t go into all the reasons now, but suffice it to say I’m unconvinced by some Catholic “distinctives,” such as papal infallibility and supremacy, and deeply sympathetic to Luther on justification, Calvin on the Eucharist, etc. (While I think Pope Francis has been a blessing to the Catholic Church-I know others here will disagree-the “Trad” forces seem to be retaking Catholicism, which worries me deeply.) I completely understand if Ortlund doesn’t want to do that kind of video because of the appearance of “sheep-stealing.” (I’ve talked to lots of priests and ministers over the past year or so, and the person who most strongly advised me to stay in the Catholic Church was a Lutheran pastor!) I also understand that there are a lot of disappointed Catholics who, seeing the problems and abuses in their own church, think the grass is greener on the other side of the Tiber, just to be disappointed all over again when they realize it’s all the same shade of scandal. And I’m terrified of becoming, as Ortlund points out in this video, the kind of “patient” whom Screwtape recommends to Wormwood, who goes “all over the neighbourhood looking for the church that ‘suits’ him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches.” I fear I’m already like that, in fact, instead of being satisfied with my situation. So I’ve stayed put in Catholicism. That said, I can’t get past thinking that I’m basically already a Protestant hanging on to communion with Rome by a thread-and that that thread is fraying. Judging from the comments I see on Ortlund’s videos, I think other Catholics are having similar problems. So I wonder if there’s a way to do that kind of video without “sheep-stealing” accusations. If not, again, I understand, and my thanks to him and his team for the videos.

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

If you're terrified of being a constant church switcher, and you can't even make it out of your own church or denomination once, you might want to rethink that fear. Sometimes a person's growth exceeds the church that they're at, you're not required to stay there, biblically or morally. The body of Christ is a huge expanse of churches and denominations, and one size doesn't fit all. It's a balancing act of concerns, but find one that is appropriate for your level and desire of Christian maturity. And know that God is not moving equally at every Church. There's some Churches he's probably never stepped in the door. Good success to you. 😊

[@nalkarj2840]

@@SpaceCadet4Jesus Thanks for the reply and for the well wishes. As you can guess, my fear comes from the Catholic Church’s claim that it is the One True Church (or, at least, that the true church subsides in it, whatever that means) and that leaving it puts a person’s soul in jeopardy. As much as I’ve tried, I haven’t been able to stop the horrible little voice from whispering in my ear that I’m just doing this for selfish reasons (I disagree with the Church on contraception, for example) and that I might just be damning myself by leaving. The whispers aren’t from my rational side-they’re just fear. But they’re strong. While I haven’t left Catholicism, I did church-hop when I was in college. I tried the Traditional Latin Mass for a long while and eventually realized it wasn’t the place for me. In large part because of my deep love for C.S. Lewis, I ended up in an Anglican Ordinariate church, and that was the parish I was happiest in. Where I live now, unfortunately, there is no Ordinariate presence whatsoever. I recently attended-and, possibly in an attempt to tamp down my fears, communed at-an Episcopal church when I was in NYC, where I had a long conversation with an Episcopal priest who gave me a prayer regimen to follow, in the hopes of getting some resolution. While I have been praying daily, I haven’t followed that regimen as rigorously as I should have. But, still, I felt guilty after communing, knowing that the Catholic Church considers a Catholic communing in a Protestant church to be a grave sin, and I still haven’t left. (At the same time, I haven’t gone to confession-while I feel guilt, rationally I don’t think that communing in a Protestant church is a a sin- so I’m already putting my soul in jeopardy.) Apologies for the long, whiny comment. It’s been a tough time. Thanks again for the support!

[@bettytigers]

Read all the Bible (not just your favourite bits!), Find a church with good teaching, Have a special time private time with God every day. My Christian friend's advice years ago. I saw a list of the denominations of the scholars who had contributed to the translation of the New International Version of the Bible the next morning after getting this advice as I opened my Bible looking for Genesis 1 to start my whole Bible reading aim. I'm still at my AOG in Sheffield 40 plus years later. Thanks be to God and my Christian friend!

[@Cletus_the_Elder]

This is so timely and I don't think I've seen the topic presented in this way before. I accused myself of being a Goldilocks or using litmus tests for churches. I've shopped churches and taken long breaks from physical presence at Sunday services. This is not spiritually healthy. Still, I find the denominations that I feel closest to are falling and failing in two ways: pastors who endorse and teach the occultic practice of Enneagram as part of spiritual formation and Christian counseling; and pastors who endorse indulging in the pleasures of the world, who pronounce in Sunday sermons enjoyment of their bourbon, Broadway musicals, their Mumford and Sons, and their connoisseur's wine. Before and after Sunday services, there is so much activity, but none of it seems to move members of the church to a greater yearning to learn from Scripture or to draw nearer to God.

[@melodysledgister2468]

This shallowness betrays their true motivations. It’s a big turnoff to me, too. I’m not a fan of small groups-church within a church-but not everyone is going to have the same level of commitment.

[@haleylewis9587]

I think a lot of your decision has to do with how you view church at the current walk in your faith. For the new Christian, finding a church that you can be fed biblically sound theology is most essential. As the Christian matures in faith and is fed on the Scriptures daily, prays daily, it seems natural church becomes more about relationships with the body of Christ. I am at the point where I feel differently about why it is I go to church, landing on it is to strengthen my relationships with others and to develop ministries for community. Listen to the Spirit is the most important thing. God bless!

[@Ekstol]

I want to leave my non-denom church. After reading the church fathers and church history, I’ve found myself convinced of Lutheran theology. My problem is that my wife isn’t convinced that the doctrine is wrong in any way and has no desire to hear the arguments. She has issues with some of the church leadership and we both love our pastor and community so she overlooks that. I just can’t get over their low view of the sacraments and how the rest of the doctrine will affect our kids. We just had a baby that I believe should be baptized but she’s against it. I can catechize my kids at home but then they’ll have conflicting teaching when they go to church. I’m not sure what to do. Prayers are appreciated!

[@aperson4057]

I can't answer fully since I don't know your situation fully. That being said, you can to a Lutheran church yourself. Imagine how terrible you feel in your wife's church, and how she'll feel the same in a Lutheran context (if her convictions remain the same). Don't destroy your wife's spirituality for the sake of your good theology. Concerning children, that will take a deeper conversation that can't be answered here.

[@toddvoss52]

Will pray for you. That is a difficult situation. Your marriage is your primary vocation so it is important not to harm it (by going to a different church ) unless you assess you are compelled to do so. If your child, God forbid, should become seriously ill, you can always perform a valid baptism yourself.

[@aaronvienot]

From what you said there, it seems "I want...after reading the church fathers and church history" might be front-loading your view. Is that spiritually healthy? What does Scripture say regarding Christ's heart for worship and service in the body of Christ? Is your present church doing those things? Is any church you are looking at moving to, doing those things? Will you follow Christ through the Spirit to whatever end He wants, even if it means some Christian traditions can't be followed? Is your wife is seeing something that you have missed, or are both of you are missing something? Just a few questions for you to pray about, and compare to the Scripture, as you make those decisions -- very fundamental questions which were overlooked in Ortlund's presentation here, unfortunately.

[@CharlesHorning]

Honestly, such an excellent video. Such an important video.

[@musichearer]

For me the question is: Should we leave a church just to join another church, where we would directly qualify to leave again (per your video)...? Right now, we are at a church where we have been for several years and see some problems in leadership, clearness of teaching (too much is not addressed), church discipline (too lazy) etc. Within drivable distance the only other church where we could go is the one with some family members (so we know it well), but we would instantaneously qualify to leave again, because there we would most probably not have so much opportunity to serve (especially my wife would not have) and some minor issues (like liturgy, which we couldn't change there, because it's a megachurch; or like third rank doctrines). Any advice?

[@danielmclean3227]

Great video loved the insights, excited for your video on politics, this is the thorniest issue for me to try and pastor people through. Like you said, “the pressure is on, I am either not political enough or too political.” Often Getting blasted from both sides

[@JonathanRedden-wh6un]

I was a Reader (lay preacher) and also a member of General Synod of the Church of England for over twenty years. The doctrine of the church has changed particularly in the area same sex blessings. My wife and I are now members of an FIEC church.

[@HearGodsWord]

The doctrine hasn't changed yet. The Bishops are trying to do so through the back door though. FIEC are sound, as are some of the smaller Anglican groups like AMiE

[@ThePreachingOfHisWord]

Love this Dr. Gavin O.

[@zachhawkins2698]

Thank you Gavin Ortlund. This video covers a topic that is very close-to-home I think for a lot of your listeners. Christ Bless!

[@Sweet-vl8uf]

Man. I needed this.

[@eviehaller8182]

Excellent.

[@devinsaettel3725]

Needed this!

[@Hillbillywayfarer]

Great and very practical video, there is so much to consider. Although I don’t neatly fit into any one scenario, there is much I can apply to my situation. I suppose my one question would be, if I stayed in a church which I disagree with doctrinally, for the sake of my family who is flourishing, am I being dishonest to continue to be a member. Membership implies that I assent to the Church’s constitution. My conscience is uneasy.

[@KM-zn3lx]

I've been looking for awhile now for a local church I can attend due to leaving RCC. I might be called a church hopper, but I need to feel very comfortable with a church since the RCc had me hoodwinked for so many years! To be fair, I wasn't a member of any and gave them a chance before I left. My husband's church I attended for 3 years mostly on, sometimes still searching, but couldn't join because they believed tongues was evidence of being baptized in the spirit and they ordained women pastors. I just wanted to worship with him. I left a non dom church because the Pastor insisted the book of Revelation was already past with some future, but mostly not going to happen. He didn't believe in the rapture which is fine but he sorta made fun of Charasmatics. I don't really believe in ultra Charasmatics but my husband's church is lightly Charasmatics. It didn't sit right with me about his teaching because he should have presented other theological views. Instead he made it sound like you'd only have his view if you read the Bible properly. I'm not for lgbtq agenda, but this pastor often makes fun of them and refers to them as "those people" instead of being concerned that they are lost.

[@marksmale827]

Hoodwinked about what exactly?

[@geoffjs]

Classic example of Protestant “church shopping”! It sounds as though you were poorly catechised in the Catholic faith, otherwise you wouldn’t have left her spiritual deep & richness! Why do strong Protestants continuously join the CC?

[@noagracious]

Hey Dr. Gavin! Thank you so much for the work you're doing, it is a complete answer to prayer for me. Being raised nondenom, I've had a lot of anxiety about Protestantism and your voice in this journey has been such a source of peace. I'm reading some of the mystics right now and was wondering if you had a video/were planning on doing one about Christian mystical literature? I'm reading Julian of Norwich right now and some of her theology seems questionable, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. God bless!!

[@JohnMark61355]

Thank you. Interested in viewer’s thoughts. We have been attending a church for almost two years. This church has no board of directors or elders that anybody answers to. Besides the senior pastor, the paid personnel include two of the pastor’s daughters, his wife, and long-term friends of the pastor. The worship director of the main church is the husband the Hispanic church pastor’s daughter, the worship director of the satellite church is the sister of one of the church’s pastors, and is married to the satellite location’s pastor. The “community director” is a friend of the family for 30 years and gets six weeks of during the summer. I am not aware that any of the positions were advertised or others interviewed before the friends and family were hired. Those are just the connections I know of. In addition, the church spent at least $120000 on new lighting and screens when the existing lighting/screens were functional. The request for more donations seemed to increase after this purchase. I am not saying that anything is going on that is illegal or immoral, but the situation does not seem right especially since the fund raising and emphasis on tithing is constant.

[@Crucian1]

Calvin said good church authority was essential for a true church. If a leadership is practising nepotism and not being responsible with money then that is not good church authority. Sounds dodgy to me!

[@JohnMark61355]

@ Thank you. I want to be clear, I don’t think there is theft or moral misuse of money, but the situation seems ripe for scandal. However, the fact is a huge portion of the tithes and offerings are going to one family and their friends without oversight. My confusion, and possible error in thinking, is exacerbated by the fact that the church members I talk to don’t seem be aware or think it matters. The responses are “this is a good church” or “[pastor’s name] is a good man.”

[@calebhonegger3787]

Hey. This hits home for me. When I first came back to my walk with Christ, I lept into serving on the tech team at a church almost exactly like you described, for nearly two years as well. It was exciting, I was young in my faith, and I frankly did not know better. I don't know any other way to say this other than to be direct - that might not be a church. That sounds more like the pastor's Christ themed untaxed family business. I am sure good things are happening there, I am sure people are hearing the gospel, and I am sure God is moving and working in that community (like he can anywhere). But everything you mentioned is full of red flags. Spending $120,000 on A/V to replace a functioning system is absurd. Asking for money in the name of God as a tithe, and then using it irresponsibly? Yes, that is immoral when you think of how that money could have impacted people in need, helped other ministries in the area, etc. Yes, that's immoral when the emphasis on tithing is constant. And you are right to notice that there's zero accountability should the pastor or anyone in leadership actually behave immorally. It sounds like this is a non-denominational church? Be on the look out for other red flags. In my situation, those included people who I knew were committed Christians and cared about serving who slowly or abruptly left (who it turns out were pushed out and ostracized because they questioned the church leadership), it was empty sermons that were more life advice and practical application than teaching the word, it was a lack of respect for the Lord's supper (rarely taken, and no belief in Christ's presence), and it was a church model that put more emphasis on growth and fundraising vs spiritual development and health.

[@JohnMark61355]

@@calebhonegger3787 Thank you. This is a Southern Baptist church. Both of the large non-denominational Christian churches in my area are run by elders or a board of directors as well as invite any member to make an appointment with the church accountant to review the church finances.

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

Sounds like we have a "Good ole boy" church, if you're not in, you're out. And I'm forever out. 😊

[@MatthewMetanoia]

Just finding any church that doesn't mix works and faith is difficult

[@geoffjs]

Faith alone is not biblical! Jas 2:20-24 Mt 25:30-45

[@pappap1702]

​@@geoffjsBut works are not required for salvation but are a fruit of salvation.

[@rh82828]

I've had a drafted email to my pastor saved for weeks now. I love the teachings but the music is too loud and lights are too much of a trigger of migraines. I don't want to leave without saying something but I've also already shared about my struggles. But every non denom church in town is the same, so I have nowhere to go. I feel so discouraged. Sundays have always been my favorite day, but not now. Concert worship music hinders more than singing, it also hinders prayer and fellowship and unity as a body. I don't know if I should go or stay, simply bc there's not any other option.

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

Any more conservative denominational churches in your area?

[@geoffjs]

Try the Catholic or Orthodox Church for silence, reverence & proper liturgical sacrificial worship which generally, Protestantism don’t do!

[@kgebhardt1187]

Consider a Confessional Lutheran church ✝ May God guide you

[@bobjoe1849]

Just started going back to a church and I am struggling to adjust into my churches community. I have no close friends or any family that attend there along with me and have doubts about it. I understand other folks who might want to leave for feeling left out. Some people come from a different perspective in life than myself and some of those reasons might be valid. I do go to a kind of cheesy Baptist church with little of to no tradition which as a traditionalist I do crave and have felt the urge to leave but Christ's love keeps me there and the love I have for my other siblings in Christ never makes me feel lonely.

[@jeffk6673]

I would simple add that if you leave a church, specifically for negative reasons, do your best not to be too harsh in conversations with others about the situations that lead to the move. Even if it was doctrinal, I have seen so many leave and become bitter and so aggressively antagonistic towards even the good people still in the former congregation, in ways that they do not even treat the spiritually depraved. Seek peace with all men, and holiness, without which you can't see God (Hebrews 12:14).

[@litigioussociety4249]

I changed churches a few years ago, mostly because of logistics. They didn't have a small group or Sunday School class that I was able to attend. I started watching the sermons ar the church I was at before that planted the church with no small group, and alomg with lots of little things eventually knew when it was the right time to switch back. It was hard, because it had been like 8 years, and I was helping with the worship sometimes, but fortunately things had changed to where they weren't dependent on me as much as just a couple years earlier. I would say for others to just try and watch for those little signs of when the time is right, and obviously watch or attend the new church a few times in preparation.

[@thetable7660]

I would maybe add if there's a lack of clear leadership. So not any drama or the like, just a concern over direction and doctrinal clarity. That's what I'm questioning now; it's not as if my Church is categorically failing to function in a healthy way but it seems there is a lack of oversight. I don't know if I could leave without hurting the Church as I'm concerned there will be only less discernment happening if I'm absent, but I'm not an Elder, nor even a Deacon, so it really feels like I shouldn't be responsible to this extent.

[@felixfelicis5574]

I left my one after feeling not supported and not being built up, i tried fixing stuff but a series of events went disastrously wrong. I should have moved churches at start of year as originally planned because it hurt me more

[@changjsc]

I used to work with an Asian American parachurch ministry that saw lot of Asian American youth and young adults who don’t speak the same language as the pastors and elders. The youth group is in English and the main service is translated. It’s a very common circumstance and the culture gap makes it really difficult to grow and to leave cleanly. Hard situation :(

[@augustine.c8204]

responding to your last question, what I would add is Reconquista!!!!!!

[@ashersmasher3659]

Hey Gavin, can you do a video about the prosperity gospel?

[@willclayton1121]

Gavin casully calling out the single 25 year old engineers! God Bless!

[@kiwisaram9373]

Heard a story about an ex gang member who became a Christian and attended a church for a while only to stop going. He told them when He was a gang member everyone in the gang looked out for him and they made an effort to hang out together at every opportunity like an extended family would. He thought the church he attened would be the same, but sadly it was not.

[@maryloulongenbaugh7069]

I wish I had found a conservative middle-of the- road church and stayed when my kids were young. Skipping around can make children cynical about church going.

[@missinglink_eth]

My church is filled with loving, caring people. They love the Lord. My wife helps in children’s church and is, imo, a breath of fresh air to the teens. I teach once every 6 weeks or so on Wednesday nights. I follow a verse by verse expository style, using exegesis to explain the Bible the best I can. And that’s the opposite of the preachers. They pick a topic, jump all over the Bible, yell about the rapture every 20 minutes, and never really stay on track - zero liturgy. It’s kind of Pentecostal mixed with Baptist mixed with something else. And that preaching “style” is why I’m not happy with my church. I personally don’t get anything from the demons but my wife helps the teens. My daughter has friends but she is homeschooled and gets Christian teaching in everything we do with her. I’ll continue to pray about it. I’d love a church that teaches the Bible straightforwardly and has some liturgy. Anyone have advice? Thanks all.

[@mattl.4993]

Great video! I’m a middle age guy who’s stuck in a non denominational church. Yeah the pastor is great for most part and I wish he’d go deeper in the Text, but the ambiance of the church feels incredibly feminine. I read systematic theologies for fun and am fascinated by church history. I live in a small rural area and do have a reformed Presbyterian church that is local I may check out but I more closely align with reformed Baptists. Have a family but my young son has a hard time sitting and listening so not having a children’s church is not ideal. I just feel stuck.

[@isaacsmith5351]

I would appreciate any thoughts on my situation. I am 26 and married, attending an church that has 25 people on a good Sunday. I feel like I have been inflated into a leadership position that I'm not particularly qualified for only because I'm one of the few people interested in theology. Attempts toward any activities outside of a sunday service are met with disinterest at best. Its a very low-church, hyper-grace church and I crave some sort of liturgy as Gavin mentioned. Any advice/ideas on how to best serve my local church would be appreciated.

[@geoffjs]

TBH, proper liturgical sacrificial worship can only found in the CC & Orthodox as they have validly ordained priests in the line of apostolic succession. Jn 6:53 says that receiving His Real True Presence is essential for salvation, without which, you’re not attending “church”, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching. Read the early fathers. An honest response!

[@sfingaz9]

Too often is the guiding thought of choosing a church "What can this church do for me?" instead of "What can I do for this church?"

[@graysonguinn1943]

Thanks JFK

[@lanabecker8640]

That has to be balanced with the consideration that the church may be hindering what God intended the church to do. If they disrespect the sacraments of communion, baptism and the Word, then it doesn’t matter “what you can do.” If the sermons are cherry picking 2 verses and then giving a ted talk about all the psychology, you aren’t receiving what God intended from the church, and no amount of your faithful service is going to change that….

[@sfingaz9]

@@lanabecker8640 Those are you real consideration that I'm not saying should be dismissed. My point is that the scale between those two questions is often off-balanced, in favor of personal gain.

[@sfingaz9]

@@graysonguinn1943 LOL

[@Peter-qb8gf]

Okay John F Kennedy

[@aaronvienot]

I may have missed it, but I didn't hear a clear statement of "What minimum standard for worship and service does Christ ask of you from Scripture, what does He ask of His church collectively, and is your current church doing that? If so, and you are considering a move, is your motivation coming from the Sprit's leading (obey), or are you following your heart-desires (repent)?" in this presentation. If that question isn't asked and answered as the starting point, I'm not sure how any other issues can be resolved, even though some things discussed here are real and serious considerations.

[@geoffjs]

Jesus commanded us to worship & how Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 10:17-23. By rejecting His instructions, Protestantism doesn’t worship properly, hence not “church”, more like synagogue with prayer & teaching!

[@aaronvienot]

@@geoffjs I assume by those references you're taking one of the ritualists views on the communion meal, in contrast to the protestant position that they are spiritual and symbolic. The problem with over-literalizing those passages is that the Lord frequently used natural things to illustrate spiritual truths and indicated that God must be worshipped spiritually (John 4:1-26). He freely imparted eternal life to a man who never once tasted a communion supper, or baptism (Luke 23:32-43). He gave His servant Paul a significant treatise on the natural preceding the spiritual and while the two have correspondence, they are not to be confused (1 Cor.15:35-58). And He rebuked the Pharisees sharply for making rules that wrongly overlapped the natural and spiritual realms in regard to food in particular (Mat.15:1-16). I don't know if any of those passages will touch your heart by the Spirit, but perhaps someone else will see them.

[@geoffjs]

@@aaronvienot Read Mal 1:11 with gentiles offering pure sacrifice at all times in all places with the CC doing exactly that daily in most parishes around the world. The words daily bread, in their original language, refer to supernatural bread or Eucharist! If you don’t believe in His Real Presence, investigate Eucharistic miracles, msgs from God which science can’t explain with the same AB blood type & living heart tissue. Visit Carlos Acutis Jn 6:63. The “flesh” Jesus notes refers to our inclination to think only with our natural human reason instead of the enlightenment that comes with the grace of God. Jesus refers to THE flesh, not HIS flesh If the Eucharist is not His One True Presence, why do Satanists steal consecrated hosts from Catholic parishes for desecration at sacrilegious black masses, not something that happens to Protestantism because of its belief of symbolism

[@glstka5710]

The first time I left a Church for another Church was because of two things 1) Although the particular pastor was theologically conservative, the denomination was liberal. 2) I was still in my 20s and single and the solid believing Christians that were the same were in the "Born Again/Evangelical" crowd not the "Mainline" denominations. I feel a bit like we on the "Born Again" side need a little more grounding in history. But the older "historical Mainline" Churches are decaying due to Liberal Apostasy. The next two times were more geographical changes so I still have a positive feeling about them. The difference of denomination is not big because they were not very different, just slightly different flavors of theologically conservative Protestant. I'm not that dedicated to any denomination, theologically conservative Protestant is enough for me. Studying Church History has me feeling even more that we on the "Born Again" side need a little more grounding in history. But I'd rather work to improve the Church I'm in and if I moved to a new Church then I'd just be a newcomer and not likely have any influence.

[@gigahorse1475]

15:48 This describes my family exactly. My family left our IFB church due to drama in the membership and the church changing from traditional hymns to contemporary. But because our previous church was so legalistic and we grew up there, my family won’t accept any church that isn’t exactly like it or perfect in every way. I’ve already found my own church, but because my family isn’t Calvinistic and my church is tiny they won’t attend. I’ve been trying for years to get them to pick one church and stick with it. Even if it’s a super legalistic KJVO church or a cheesy nondenominational one. Just pick one! 😭

[@nathanpeereboom761]

Don't be sorry about the thumbnails. They're great!

[@jimyoung9262]

Agreed. I only come for the thumbnails. 😉

[@NoahRichardHarris]

@@jimyoung9262 +1 Come for the thumbnail, stay for video lol

[@SojournerDidimus]

I can tick of most of them, but Scenario 3 matched like like you were there with us. Figures, I left a few months back.

[@wandacrowell6766]

I’m a member of a UMC church. I’ve been thinking about leaving for over 4 years. Covid put things on pause. I have moved and started attending a Free Methodist church. I’m getting fed there and growing. The UMC made a doctrinal change I don’t agree with on May 1st allowing gay pastors and gay marriage. Is that a reason to leave or is it considered secondary? I still love my old church but I think I need to move on to grow and be biblically correct.

[@dansands6363]

If the United Methodist church you personally attend hired an openly gay pastor I would leave. In that case the pastor is openly and proudly living a sinful lifestyle and so there would be no possible outcome where I could stay in that church. Now in the case that your denomination as a whole made a change to allowing gay pastors, etc., while that is certainly unfortunate and a deep mistake, if you and your local congregation are still led by a Godly and biblical team of pastors and elders than I would considering hanging around. But I hear ya though, it’s tough seeing these once great historic Protestants churches turn into left wing echo chambers at the expense of the gospel being pushed to the side.

[@mj6493]

@@dansands6363 "...it’s tough seeing these once great historic Protestants churches turn into left wing echo chambers at the expense of the gospel being pushed to the side." Yup. A lot of Christians in this situation. Do we play the long game and try to hold fast, hoping for better days ahead, or do we shake the dust from our sandals and move on?

[@geoffjs]

Gay pastors & support for gay marriage are red flags. As a cradle Catholic, I suggest that you investigate His One True Church, in spite of sinful men.

[@Mercyme57]

There is a deep thirst for the sacraments and liturgy…for unchanging truths to be held to and taught…for BOTH the WORD and the SPIRIT…because together they convict, reveal, and empower. Imagine…X that by every church and what a difference we would see…how many lives would be changed, how many souls led out of darkness, how much more the kingdom would be manifest.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

Interesting topic

[@Eben_Haezer]

That was very helpful Brother Gavin. God bless

[@margaretwandel5660]

I have found it hard to remain churched. I wrote a book about the painful experiences I have had. Church communities can be as bad as high school. I made the mistake of staying too long. I now regard myself as a spiritual nomad. I attend two different churches on Sunday and go to events at both churches.

[@tony1685]

why not go on the Lord's day, the sanctified, blessed, Holy, church day, the 7th day Sabbath -- according to the Bible? it's what Jesus did

[@livvyrae94]

What if everything about scenario 4 applies except you're not single, you're married with multiple children under the age of 10 and a spouse who doesn't fully understand that ache. How do you address that?

[@geoffjs]

Pray, fast & pray again! He will answer your prayers!

[@toddvoss52]

Will pray for you. A difficult situation. Not so easy. Your marriage is sacred itself and your primary vocation is as a husband and father . Hopefully your wife can also see what you are seeing one day.

[@livvyrae94]

@@toddvoss52 thank you. I'm the wife in the situation though, which makes it even more difficult because I don't want to disrespect my husband but I also feel called to things he disagrees with.

[@toddvoss52]

@ oh I see. Yes that is tough. Despite male headship, it is my experience that the mother is typically a bigger influence in their children’s spiritual life . Not sure that has any real bearing on how you deal with this but just making that observation. One piece of advice that can never be wrong is stay close to the Lord in daily prayer. I wonder if your husband would be at least willing to visit , say, an ANCA church - just to check it out . Anyway just said a prayer for you and God Bless.

[@London-Lad]

My reasons for leaving was this... Wherever you find the vulnerable en masse, you will inevitably find predators in equal numbers. This can include the clergy of that parish. In fact, the body tends to rot from the head down. You do not have to be a 'man of G-d' to be a priest, you just have to appear to be. There are a LOT of non-christians within the church, who 'wear' their Christianity as a veneer to portray themselves as 'good', including within the clergy down to the lay. If something isn't right, and your gut/G-d is telling you to move on, you have absolutely no obligation to stay, especially for your spiritual or physical wellbeing or that of your family.

[@Cletus_the_Elder]

Fear and trembling have been replaced with facile make-believe. So many, at so many of today's churches, make the Son of the Trinity into their imaginary friend.

[@rodney8075]

Makes me think of Jordan Peter. I'm not saying he proclaims the Word of God either. But when people ask him "Are you a Christian?", well what do you mean and if he said yes what would that actually prove? You can go door to door and ask people if they're Christian and many would say yes, but you ask a few simple questions and you realize they don't even know the God they GAVE their LIFE to. Our lives are one of the most precious things we "have" you cannot give your life to a God you don't know. If you don't have a desire to know Him better what then do you have?

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

​@@Cletus_the_ElderAlthough Jesus himself said, John 15:14 (CSB) You are my "friends" if you do what I command you. John 15:15 (CSB) I do not call you servants anymore, because a servant doesn’t know what his master is doing. I have called you "friends" , because I have made known to you everything I have heard from my Father. I do agree with you! We stand before a very very Holy God and I sense that fear and trembling has been lost in favor of the "Good ole' boy" approach. I once mentioned in a men's bible group that we should approach God with awe, fear and trembling and I immediately got push back how we shouldn't fear or tremble before God. 😮

[@JohnLittle1993]

Hello, Dr. Ortlund. You asked at the end, "What would you all add to this video [on when to leave your church]?" I'm responding to that question, though perhaps my perspective isn't representative of most people in your audience: When I happened upon this video, given my own personal experience at present, I was actually (naively!) expecting a video dealing with circumstances that motivate people to walk away from church attendance altogether. As if to say, the trajectory isn't into another congregation, but either to private devotion (as in my case) or else to an entire abandonment of Christian Faith as an external experience altogether. If the particulars of my walk are at all important in fleshing out that concern, feel free to ask about them. I would, if notified, reply.

[@dw7704]

I once read a very helpful article byJohn Gerstner. It was about when you must leave a church. He did acknowledge legitimate reasons you can leave, which overlaps. Sometimes you must leave, but those reasons are all related to teaching and practice that deny the gospel. Sometimes that is clear sometimes not. Of course how you leave is important as well.

[@scotthartsfield5786]

What are the key differences between Scenario 2 and Scenario 4? They both seem to concern liturgy in a sense.

[@JeansiByxan]

To be honest, as a young man the only reason I don’t like my church as much is that there are no women my age. Even if I don’t find a partner the need for female companionship doesn’t go away.

[@gigahorse1475]

I’m a woman and there are none to almost no men in church my age. And I’ve been to many churches in the past 2-3 years. It’s so sad that few people attend between the ages of 18-30, dedicated Christian men and women end up stranded from each other.

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

Thankfully when I first became a Christian, I left the first church I went to because it was dead as a doornail. I needed and still need to find God in church. I found my church home on the 2nd try, all those decades ago. If he's not moving there or doesn't show up, despite their social outreach programs or niceties, I'll take a pass. If you are unhappy with a church, discern what the issue is. Take it to the Lord in prayer. If you aren't finding God in church, consider finding a church where he moves. You can find more churches that are stone cold dead than those that aren't. When you find a church where God is moving you'll know it.

[@jessestone117]

8:11 I'll try to remember this