When To Get Every Economy Upgrade in AoE2

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

GILNETS: When theres alot of fish(8+ close by deep sea fish), or if theres a safe lake that you can fish trap then its very worth

[@SoulBadoulibur2024]

i already won a game thanks to guild when I had the advantage and my opponent didn't seem to have any more gold, I started selling all my extra resources so that he couldn't benefit from them and he gave up not long after XD

[@shadmanislam1122]

​@@SoulBadoulibur2024😊😊😊

[@quangang766]

Such a well made and well exlained video. However, a video about when to reach Imp and production count throughout the ages will help a lot. Build Order is found everywhere but what to do after getting castle and when to get imp is very limited.

[@RomaInvictusSPQR]

Hi i think Guilds is good if you get it before its on lowest prices (with 14/17 gold per 100 food you need something like 3000/4000 to pai back thats bad oc but before it is okay i think saw a SOL vid about it but didnt know exact numbers just remeber that if you get it "early" its more worth it) ... Did you notice that a lot of pro player that research guilds dont wait till its finished and sell all res. before XD 11 thats so funny :D ...

[@euankenobi3517]

My preferred tactic is forgetting to get any eco upgrades

[@zachschmidt9861]

7 a Nicov fan

[@bruno.madalozzo]

I like to remember when I played michi 4x4 for almost 2 hours in late game without any upgrades on my camels and handcannoners just to discovery that neither I neither my opponent had the upgrades. I ended up winning, but it was a fair battle.

[@ImperialBudderz]

my twist on this is that i only get the lumber camp and mill uogrades and forget the rest well until theres no more gold then i get the gold upgrades😂

[@gatoreptiliano8785]

Mine is to get wheelbarrow to win time when I forget about houses 11

[@ryanforgo3500]

It is important to note thst hand cart is also making your villagers die slower EVEN if you are not looking, because the villager automatically run in a weird pattern anyway so when they are faster they die slower. Maybe it is a very very small difference but as a wise man once said. "We take those" Hera the great.

[@arckmage5218]

TLDR: Farms upgrades are awesome! OK, so I watched this video earlier today and decided I had to test out farm upgrades. I've always known they're great, and I really feel like Pros sleep on getting them. So, after work I sat down and tested this. What I did was I played a custom game on Arena vs super easy AI (so it wouldn't bother me) as Ethiopians. I did 4 tests, and here are the results. Just a note, I had no idle TC time, I did NOT have wheelbarrow in any test, I placed all buildings in the same order each time. I tasked villagers to the same tasks/farms each game. In each game I queued villagers non-stop until the 30 minute mark, took stock of the res and restarted that map. Here are the results: Map 1 (16 villagers on wood, and the rest went to farms as they spawned) with NO farm upgrades 16 woodcutters and 1905 wood in bank. I had 46 total farmers at the end with 6276 food in the bank. Map 2(16 villagers on wood, and the rest went to farms as they spawned) with Horse Collar and Heavy Plow, both of which were researched immediately on advancing. 16 woodcutters and 3319 wood in bank. I had 46 total farmers at the end with 7060 food. Map 3 and 4 (I capped my farmers at 25, and sent the remaining spawned villagers to lumber camps). Map 3 results: This was with NO farm upgrades. 38 woodcutters and 6031 wood in bank. 25 farmers and 5213 food in the bank. Map 4 results: This was with both Horse Collar and Heavy Plow, both of which were researched immediately upon advancing. 38 woodcutters and 7197 wood in bank. 25 farmers and 5377 food in the bank. So here's what I learned. The 2 farm upgrades saved me AT LEAST 100 food because villagers spent less time building farms, and potentially OVER 1,000 wood in savings. And remember these tests are all concluded at 30 minutes. Imagine the savings if the game goes longer than 30 minutes. So yea, get those farm upgrades boys! Also, to whoever finished reading this. You're a champ.

[@onderalpcivcir9147]

Thanks, thats awesome !

[@PauxloE]

One thing to note: If you plan to pick one of the farm upgrades, and also plan to seed a lot of farms soon, get the farm upgrade first, this way they will be the longer-lasting ones. (Of course, as mentioned by Hera, this only will delay the next reseed time, so it only pays (in wood) when the farms would have run out originally.)

[@persereika7401]

I play mostly arena with poles and I allways get the first farm upgrade as soon as I hit the feudal and I make sure my vils wont finish building the farms before upgrade is finished. You can start building the farms as long as they finish only after upgrade is done.

[@danielbentley7117]

​@@persereika7401 Getting economy upgrades in feudal on Arena just delays your castle age time though

[@hansoskar1911]

Every tech that increases gather rate pays off, with less villagers on that ressource it just takes longer. Wheelbarrow (and lesser Hand Cart) is diffrent bc it has a trade off bc it takes TC time and therefore there is a tradeoff with villager creation. It is possible to lose res with a bad Wheelbarrow timing. Hand Cart is the same in theory but bc it takes less villager time therefore it pays off better. There is never a point where it is worng to get HC if you can afford it. (imho "I need to fast Imp and cant spend the food" is the only valid exception) To answer the question when do i get Wheelbarrow: When I get housed ;)

[@pedrocarvalho7480]

Perfect

[@myopiniondoesntmatter7068]

Horse collar is really simple. If going 2-3 units down in feudal is going to put you heavily behind or lose the game outright (can happen in similar civ match ups - like archer v archer or scout v scout etc) you delay it. But quite often for everyone under 2k elo, you can easily fit it in because the margins in games are rarely that small. Yes it "only" saves wood. But it still saves vill time which still gives you resources to spend elsewhere vs someone who ignored it when it kicks in, which despite what hera says - its usually at the most important time (arrival to castle/early castle) As usual it depends. It depends on the civ match up, it depends on the map, it depends on the current game state (did either of you take decent damage from a drush? did you lose a vill walling to a scout? did you feed a boar with a vill?) Lets say you both go up to Feudal at 11 mins, one player gets HC asap the other doesnt (no WB/cart for this example), assuming there's the typical feudal fighting/poking and its not a fast castle or extremely closed map, you should see castle reached at 16-21 minutes. The player with no HC's farms reseed at 19:30 which is right in the window where you are either dropping TC's or siege/monastery/extra ranges/stables etc - you now have to choose between momentum or eco at a pivotal moment, you'll have anywhere from 14-20+ farms all expiring in that window which is up to 1200+ wood Meanwhile the player with HC only has to reseed their farms starting at 25:15 - a full 6:15 minute difference. That player can easily take map control or smoothly boom up so when he does actually have to re-seed his farms he's either got a bunch of relics, more map control, damage done, a bigger villager lead or has likely siege pushed enough to change the outcome of the game. It essentially boils down to this: You spend 150 resources total (75/75) to gain ~6:15 duration on farms (ignoring the next set of reseed). The time when farms naturally reseed is during the most crucial part of the game for wood in terms of timing. It lets you delay dumping a massive load of wood into economy until the game state has likely either settled down or has resolved. One thing people seem to never acknowledge or even understand though. Resources don't have a consistent "value" to the player over the course of the game. They get devalued per point as the game goes on. 100 food in dark age is far more valuable than it is in castle (because of the time taken to gather it) Its the exact same thing in castle (when HC pays off and truly comes into play). On the average game where you add more TC's in that period of ~4-5 mins when you add a second or third TC the value of a single resource point plummets because of the speed that your vills are being created. Its literally the same as how inflation works. Its the same argument with Dravidians - the 200 wood is very useful in dark-feudal and feudal-castle but nobody cares about 200 wood going to imp. TLDR: The farm length extended saves you ~1200+ wood in a very crucial time of the game. By extending it you delay them to the point where wood isn't as valuable as it would've been 6:15 earlier. So once again, if the 150 res is going to be the end of you in feudal age. You delay it. But by picking this up ASAP it gives you such a gigantic "hidden" resource advantage that will usually dwarf any disadvantage you get by using 150 res earlier

[@pedrocarvalho7480]

Very good analysis, Hera a year ago was known as the player who never picked HC soon, however, last months he kind of changed his style, understanding exactly what you mentioned about early castle age timing. Conclusion: if you can afford it soon, do it ASAP.

[@beauthepotato3353]

Thank you Hera! Love the video and this is so helpful, it all makes sense when I hear it but it's so hard to do in practice - now at least I will know when/why. Would love more videos on villager rebalancing during age transitions for different strategies, or what to do immediately upon hitting ages for different goals

[@Manouil_III]

4:21 - Heavy Plow additionally gives +1 food *carry capacity* to farmers, not gather rate; which increases (up to a certain extent) the farming efficiency by reducing the overall walking time.

[@nachoantunez]

i think that the extra capacity makes the ratio a bit slower, thats why its so unpopular

[@Manouil_III]

​@@nachoantunez Yes, you are correct that the reduction to the overall walking time, reduces the food drop rate. I believe this is negative (if ever) only when you are below a certain amount of farmers. This amount should be very low tho (can be close to 1 or 2). Where is SotL. SotL video: "How useful are farm upgrades?"

[@demiserofd]

One thing a lot of people don't realize with Hand Cart is that it allows your villagers to out-gather the farm production rate. Farms produce food at 24F/Minute, and if you don't collect it fast enough, it can store up to 15 food internally. Why does this matter? Because your farms when you first hit castle age almost certainly have a full food stockpile. Getting Hand Cart means you get a 5 minute turbocharge period, where your farmers exceed their normal collection limits and basically pay back getting hand cart way earlier than normal. Especially relevant for civs like Sicilians. This also makes you WAY less raidable, because hand cart villagers will keep those farms empty, and empty farms take 37 seconds to fill up. In other words, your farmers can be garrisoned for 37 seconds, and not lose ANYTHING! On returning to work, they'll gather up the banked food at supercharged speeds, and in a few minutes you'll be exactly where you would have been otherwise.

[@saleem2991]

I always pick up Hand Cart before Imp when playing 1 TC crossbows. It lets me afford Arbalest upgrades. This is why Vikings with free Hand Cart were so strong, so they had to lose Thumb Ring.

[@marcos1669]

Spirit of the law, has videos calculating when is best to do each upgrade

[@pbsoccer2]

For horse collar I either get it before seeding farms, or wait until castle age

[@Davtwan]

Most importantly, Hand Cart makes the second layer of doubled-up farms almost as efficient as the first layer. It gives you much more breathing room for farm placement.

[@misteral9045]

Remember, if you think of yourself as a beginner or noob, make sure to deliberately misunderstand the farm upgrades and get them as soon as you hit Feudal because you think you're bad.

[@jcpkill1175]

You should have a part 2 that goes through each civ that modifies eco tech prices (burgundians, vietnamese) so knowing when to get them earlier can help.

[@pedrocarvalho7480]

Happy to see u talking about hand cart, i think pros really underate it, many times pros are with 100+ vills, 10 vills in queue and no hand cart. In adition, makes a lot of difference to move villagers across the map for new TCs, castle drops, and run from raids.

[@spicytranslations9604]

A good video might be when to get military upgrades and the thought process behind getting them.

[@koningsbruggen]

yeah like Mangudai has a ton of uprgades

[@daveinthemicrowave]

One thing to note about guilds is if you can get it before the market prices go down it can be worth it, assuming no one has sold at the market it goes from 100 food for 70 gold to 100 food to 85 gold. Even so it still is probably only worth if you think the game is going to go very late.

[@elacrai5883]

Here guilds acts a little like a situational handcart. If you can get it before you or your opponent sells too much, it’s incredibly strong. Buying a reduced price can be super useful as well, just think of stone prices as an example, or any balancing of the economy. However after prices drop, it goes from top tier paying for itself in 2000 res sold or bought to instead paying for itself after like 10000. Hence if you can only afford it later after prices drop, it might no longer be worth it at all ^^

[@teutonichealingfortress]

Guilds is great for buying stone up to the 200 mark - this ensures that your opponents will need to buy stone at an increased price later on, while also giving you stone at a cheaper price early on. It can also be viewed as a very defensive move.

[@LordBenji1287]

It would be great to have a version of this that is civ specific (eg here are the civs that get certain upgrades earlier or later than usual)

[@thagikaagrajith]

Me casually doing doublebit - axe on a gold nothing map

[@Spink_Prime]

In this weird instance, whether you're correct or incorrect in this video on a few points (I have no idea if you are), it's still very useful to have these opinions floating around, especially in one easily digestible video. If information like this is easily available like it is here, then the information here can be more quickly validated or refuted, leading to quicker learning, so this was definitely a good idea, and I plan on making use of it whenever I hop back into AOE.

[@DrJacobsMD]

Would love to see your "How to Play *Map*" videos return especially with new maps filtering into the ranked pool with Viper's picks!

[@johnsonmcsandwhich6576]

Farming upgrades *technically* make farming slightly faster by reseeding less, each construction/reseed takes 15 seconds which is a decent amount of time(~6 food can be gathered in that time)

[@lamegamer4607]

I have been getting or remembering handcart since SOTL video many years ago :D

[@forsakenquery]

It's funny you mention about hand cart as spirit of the law figured out how insane it was many years ago. The math he posted suggested you get it as soon as you possibly can.

[@Lunga95]

Thanks for the consistently top quality informative content Hera! Would love to request a “When to Get Every Blacksmith Upgrade” if possible - I never know if it’s better to get an upgrade, invest in additional units, or just save the res for my eco. I understand that it depends, but I don’t feel like I have a solid understanding of what it depends on in certain situations

[@VGInterviews]

I put this video on the background while I'm trimming some branches from a tree at my house, and let me tell you, this would be the perfect time for me to get some lumber camp upgrades

[@LeicaFleury]

Thank you hera this video is a massive help, I appreciate it a lot.

[@DeagleXY]

2:50 making farms around mills look much better than they look in real game

[@hansoskar1911]

funny enough, Hand Cart makes farm placement MUCH less important bc with HC your farming rate reaches the hard coded upper regrowth limit of the farm so drop off distance isnt a deciding factor in efficiency.

[@justinn5357]

Great video tons of useful information

[@gruntgg]

Great video, Hera!

[@Iwillhealyou12]

Great video. Love these kind of videos. My question is... if you are an eagle civ but vs'ing someone rushing archers.... whats the play? Going more eagles?

[@synergygaming604]

Wheelbarrow. When the meta was 25 pop feudal and immediate wheelbarrow. Best strategy going, circa 2001.

[@seanwhitehall4652]

7:35 Spirit Of The Law did a good video on hand cart where he decided the same thing.

[@joshuastanaland7099]

I'm saving to be coached by you. I have been absolutely dominating on Xbox and have peaked my skill with a controller. I have been beating players using a mouse & keyboard in ranked as well as the best Xbox players. My favorite strategy is the Khmer 23 pop Fast Castle into knights while walling recourses, towereing gold vs archer rush. I have about 7 knights with bloodlines and husbandry at 16-18 minutes and it's absolutely wrecks console players. It feels like a cheat code.

[@gebhard128]

Wheelbarrow and handcart are especially important as soon your farming eco is moving away from a perfect setup around the TC or the mill. In the perfect 8 farms around the TC system the difference in foo per minute with and without them is far smaller then in a T90 farming situation since walking difference and carry capacity starts to be the difference maker

[@rafelixz]

I feel violated watching people discussing about upgrades while I just use cheat codes for everything 🤣

[@santiagowu5365]

Vikings getting wheelbarrow and hand cart for free:

[@ilPOMPO95]

This is pure gold. How about a video about best defense against the most popular feudal/castle rush?

[@demon9166]

Hey Hera! I beleive Burgundian eco ability is way too strong. I also think Cumans being able to have town center in the feudal age sounds really unique. Can you do a "best economy civs" with their playstyle?

[@e11world]

Amazing video and most likely someone asked this but now do one on military upgrades (general).

[@galomigueles8768]

Very useful. Thank you Hera😊

[@I_like_flying]

I think two-man saw is a bit better than you think. (This is only my opionion.) When you have maybe 80-100 vills in imp or even more and maybe 30-40 vills on wood, these 30-40 vills will pay quite fast it back even if it is just 10%. I dont say it is most important up if you cant produce it but it can be really good in some situations.

[@youcanthandlethetruth5433]

Even for a aoe2 veteran like me k learned something. Definitely prioritizing hand cart more. Used to leave it till imperial even on boom maps

[@Lelekoz]

Really great video

[@justincronkright5025]

I think for how much the Viet/Champ get discussed recently... mentioning them more often in the Farm Techs especially - could be good/reasonable. You going scouts/knights with them even before the 100% faster eco-tech upgrade rates, could mean that heavy plough (yes that's how we're supposed to spell it) for 125 food isn't that bad in that you essentially get 2 free farms anyway where that wood can be used.

[@ariisee]

Technically, you actually get food faster with the Horse Collar - if we have 10 minutes of farming, without HC you spend more time remaking the farm, while with HC you can take some of this time to gather food.

[@huythiennguyen2264]

Love this!

[@QuintemTA]

I tend to get my upgrades early out of habit excluding wheelbarrow for the maths reasons. I wonder if this is one of the reasons I sometimes have a weak early-mid game but my Imperial Age tends to be smooth and I win long matches more often. My opponents maybe forgot heavy plow and they've had to reseed more, suddenly they're down 600 wood because 10 farms expired but I've still time on mine. Probably more too it than that but probably one reason.

[@fox-tuco3270]

gracias! sos un crack

[@Alemotociclista]

Hi Hera, at 5:38 you say: develop stone tech after you have 3 DCs. What are DCs? You mean Town centers? thank you!!

[@srijitmajumder99]

Hand Cart is an eco tech that is way less appreciated than it should be. I try to research hand cart at over 60 vills on 3/4 TCs even if I have to keep a TC idle, i just idle it to get the Hand cart. Not only does it help me produce more army and research more techs, it also helps me to get to imperial way faster than just wheelbarrow alone. Hand cart literally puts your economy on steroids in Castle Age.

[@machopcr]

Excellent video. What about the Fishing ships upgrade?

[@mangocurry]

But what about gil nets?

[@chessplayer6176]

thanks for the video.....is there a video showing what are the top strategies for each map ?

[@aspirenux8599]

I always get ALL them.

[@konradpyszniak976]

You are wrong about the guilds. Spirit of the Law made a great analys about it. If you pick it up earlier than market prices reach bottom then it pays off very quick

[@DubStepNMany]

Nicov is taking notes!

[@hjgftcgcc]

For poles its worth to get all farm tech ASAP and also gold and stone mining techs

[@vojtechvanek1686]

What do you think about civ-specific techs like paper money or fervor ?

[@nest1363]

I'm not really familiar with DLC's like the Poles, but why would crop rotation be more beneficial to them? Could it get argued the other way around? Preventing to make their farms last longer, could give them the insta bump of 100 food with every new farm around the forwork more often, which could get beneficial on another way. Or has this changed in their current meta?

[@crazymagoo6694]

Next topic idea: an in-depth look into why the Viper is still wrong about Dravidians 😂

[@reto6859]

you know, that two man saw is not stacking on top of bit axe and the castle age one? It only is boosting your chopping efficiency by 10% of your base chopping efficiency. the one, you have in dark age. But its still not a bad tech, because, you have way more vills when researching it, than you have in feudal, when you research double bit.

[@johncahill592]

I’d love a video on how to identify win conditions for all the various civs…

[@victorlopez2943]

Hey, how about stone Shaft for Poles? Or isn't worth either?. Thx for the video, a must attend recomendación for improvement

[@sourathghosh5170]

Do you get wheelbarrow in feudal when you anticipate archer aggression coming your way? With wheelbarrow I find it much easier to wall/ not loose vills to archers.

[@pedrocarvalho7480]

People usually think only about it economically, but the speed boost is huge in some situations to avoid villagers being killed

[@sourathghosh5170]

@@pedrocarvalho7480 also useful for tower rushing i guess

[@teddyhaines6613]

The thing about the opportunity cost involved is that not only will you be down three villagers due to the research time, but you also won't see any of the benefits for a full minute and change. So the archers need to be a good distance away for you to get wheelbarrow researched in time to save any vils.

[@mellowsunset7730]

Super helpful

[@MrMats17]

Could you do a video 'How to play enclosed' or 'How to play Haboob'. I really like the new map rotations

[@tranducquang5912]

You should talk briefly for the burgundians as they get them 1 age earlier and a bit cheaper

[@benithisraelm]

Regarding Dravidians suck thing U have with viper, Dravidians have poor economy as well lacking all late upgradess. What if instead of the wood gig of 200 wood and siege discount, they got 50 percent more benefit for eco upgrades except market and started with +25 of each resource. Will that fix the civ win-rate even with existing tech tree and useless unique unit? For balance we can remove 2-man saw and it'll be the only civ that does not have all the late game upgrades.

[@paweborkowski6959]

That's great and all but WHEN should I get the siege tower upgrade?

[@cleanerben9636]

I just get them when I feel like it.

[@fungaming832]

Hera plz if possible make a similar video of when to tech switch and pick up the military upgrades. I usually tech switch but I feel like it is taking forever. Maybe you could help with that.

[@henriqueoliveira2840]

Nicov, gets double bit axe and thats it.

[@kevinsarulis4067]

I have a strong dark and fuedal age but after that I just can't manage my villagers and upgrades efficiently while also walling/building army. I'm a terrible multi tasker

[@pointteaboy7113]

Guild is better than that. When the market price wasn't bottom out, it is a lot more attractive. SotL did a video on that I remember.

[@DudeBoerGaming]

Make a video about what Unique Techs to get at what time during the game for each civ...my 2c

[@lukassteiner3610]

Thanks for your Videos. Would help a complete noob like me if you show the icons of the tech when you explain them. Greetings from Austria

[@robdenini6972]

Fishing ship upgrades: am i a joke to you?

[@danielmaar8683]

Can you Do a best economy Tier list Video

[@iwersonsch5131]

When should I get gillnets?

[@valger3652]

Gilnets gives +20% work rate like double bit axe. If you go heavy fishboom - make guilnets asap when you can afford it.

[@TorecAOM]

I think I always get too many economic upgrades even under pressure. Maybe cause im economist lol

[@Bommelinto]

Can dou do a Video which shows hoe many wood workers you need for how many farms and also how many mining people to have a solid production for the different units

[@jaspervoorn]

Can you do one about armory and university upgrades and when to get which ones?

[@bennoloth]

Can you please do one of these but for Burgundians?

[@ilPOMPO95]

This is why I always say "French do not have economy bonus"

[@nwpointzero]

Great stuff Hera. Now please help a brother out. Tier list - Empire wars 2v2 :)

[@TheOnkard]

would be nice to include the icons of the upgrades in the video. I dont read the icon name.

[@alexeschen1849]

Perfect farms around the the mill is triggering. It doesn’t work like that. Lol

[@aeros618]

Can you do a video on how to perfectly balance your eco?

[@pw479g]

What about getting all those upgrades with Burgundians when everything is available 1 age earlier? :)

[@AllenWera]

Good to know, I never get Handcart 11

[@mohamadsafari6777]

why is there archers shooting sound effect in every video?

[@DutchAver]

What about Gillnets?

[@jamesjamieson8952]

Is no one asking how he got 8 farms perfectly around a normal 2x2 mill? Must be a special editor trick?

[@sharon77787]

maybe adding the image of the upgrade?😅

[@zeynel_99]

How to defend Tower-Rush! PLS

[@andomlyranonymous6488]

Nice.