Where Do We Go From Here? A Conversation with Stephanie Kelton | MMT Conference Day 2

Video recorded from Day Two of the 4th Annual Modern Monetary Theory Conference (held April 8th - 28th 2022), documenting featuring the panel featuring Stephanie Kelton
Twitter ► / themmtnetwork
#mmt #modernmoneytheory

[@nancypeterson6796]

I don't accept its too complicated for the general public. That is 80 year old me. Had no interest in economics, found it boring. Then I heard you, Stephanie in the Presidential Lecture series. You explained it clearly, gave it context, and I got it!!! And it was exciting. I could see how we've been conned. And since then I've discovered Michael Hudson, another economist who explains things clearly and because its clear its mind blowing. And it turns the other economic into the con that it is. It is not complicated unless you start talking in economic jargon, yeah the specialist vocab that most disciplines develop. Then its only complicated because you start using words not in common usage. I loved MMT because it was and is clear and straight forward. And you did such a good job of presenting that.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

You have been conned . MMT is false essentially because it is based on fallacies that those with a poor understanding of financial matters are the suckers for. Their language is designed to appeal to less well informed people's emotion to suck them in. Such MMT fallacies are believing that the government issues the money when the reality is all of the national money of countries today is credit fiat money created by private banks or the Reserve banks. The MMT version of the economy contradicts what the reserve banks actually say about how money is created.

[@mikeklein4949]

How else would we do this

[@mikeklein4949]

Is not inflation always part of every fiscal, financial decision

[@MrMarinus18]

I think it's because it busts the neo-liberal fantasy of a world without power and where things are fair. The government disrupts the function of the market and can use it's authority and even force to make things happening without playing by capitalist rule. That's why neo-liberalism goes out of it's way to demonize the government cause it disrupts the supposedly perfect market. Many have forgotten that the main claim by Reagan was that unleashing the full power of the market will create greater prosperity. The government is a disruptive force in the market that breaks it's laws and decides winners and losers. That sounds bad but "losers" in this context means desperate homeless people and "winners" means people with a billions times more money than they know what to do with. The government disrupts the game of capitalism but the game itself is just bad so that's not a bad thing that they disrupt it.

[@DaleHitchcox]

I love what you folks are doing (evangelizing MMT) and you are benefitting society greatly but, if you're going to do that through media like KZbin, would you consider investing in an audio-video setup that is not substandard. It costs something but I think you'll find it removes a barrier between folks and your message. Again, thank you!

[@RealProgressInAction]

Good stuff.

[@russellgallman7566]

Really appreciate this interview. Been feeling a bit down, but this was rather longview inspiring.

[@jimg8413]

The real question is why MMT is not an automatic epiphany for those exposed to it!

[@shumbi11]

There's a powerful group that wants to starve the beast of government by pushing a narrative that the government can go broke and money grows on rich people. If they discover how to use MMT to serve their tax cut agenda, the opposition may melt away. Now it's associated with only one half of politics.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

Answer - Because it is a rubbish idea that is really a fantasy that on close examination defies reality and requires one to suspend critical thinking to embrace it's cult like beliefs.

[@kennethisaac233]

Some people are already used to the system

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@kennethisaac233 They are the deluded ones who have been easily led by someone promising what is appealing without having any workable way to follow through and provide what they promise.

[@dannywindham3295]

This is great to see Professor Kelton and Rohan together again telling the truth

[@JCResDoc94]

gr8 entry. we just have to keep pushing the understanding of what the sys really are. _JC

[@Achrononmaster]

44:40 this was the best question for MMT I've heard in recent memory.

[@JCResDoc94]

*44:30** well, not strictly on the financial policy side, but regulation enforcement can handle infltn. or if we print money that goes directly to gas companies to "lower prices to pre ukraine rates" something like that.* but that is gross & wrong, & we should instead still just print that same money to hire a military & bank lawyer task force to freeze thr acnts, & go & get them .& then nationalize anyone profiteering. _JC

[@Achrononmaster]

By "we" you can only mean government. But governments today are not going to do any of that. The first task is to learn MMT, but that has to be followed up by mass social movement to seize back government "for the people" only then can your, or Stephanie's, proposals get put into effect.

[@JaronBTW]

Would like to see MMT scholars emphasize streamlining the distribution of resources for the basic necessities of life (nutritious food, clothing, basic housing and utilities, education, and healthcare) to every individual in the world... and then if that's all taken care of and people still want to work then i propose decreasing the number of hours people need to work to collect overtime pay.

[@nancypeterson6796]

I still don't see it happening. I get so frustrated listening to otherwise smart people who still talk about inflation being about printing too much money, about the deficit being the big problem looming over the American economy., Chris Martenson is one. and his Adam Taggart investment blog. They still don't get it. I am longing to hear analysis of current problems based on the MMT perspective. Where are the MMTers doing that?

[@mikeklein4949]

Yes, the mechanics of MMT in practice are beyond our day to day experence and can be complex. Where I have an issue with trying so hard to present MMT is I think the concept is so remarkbly simple, clear. Might be referred to s a no-brainer.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

You have not realized that people without the ability to apply little brainwork just swallow this MMT rubbish without thinking without discovering that it is based on false beliefs.

[@angelab1023]

Love you both! Your work is so very important! The think tanks are there to stop progressives, they were founded and are funded for that reason. I wouldn’t count on their staffers to help in any way.

[@jones1351]

'Nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come...' - MLK (quoting Victor Hugo). MMT's time has come. I think people in America - I know I am - are tired of being told that the reason we can't have 'nice things'* is because some how the wealthiest country in global history can't afford it. While less wealthy nations, all around us manage to do it. MMT calls BS on that play with facts and clear logic. Prof. Kelton's book is a godsend. *nice things like no one going bankrupt because they got sick; or dying because they rationed their insulin - not being able to afford the necessary amount. Not to mention increasing Social Security benefits, rather than taking a hatchet to them, hiding behind the false crisis of a self-imposed 'debt ceiling'.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

Because you leave yourself open to it you have been conned by MMTers who push the line " we all can have nice things". A typical can artist saying that defies reality and appeal to peole who can't understand financial realities.

[@jones1351]

@@Rob-fx2dw ‘…people who can't understand financial realities.’ And what, pray tell, are those ‘financial realities’ that ‘we’ fail to understand? Are you still laboring under the idea that sovereign currency nations have to tax and borrow before they can buy goods and services denominated in the currency, they create? If you had a legitimate printing press in your basement, or were tapped into ‘your account’ at the fed reserve, is there anything for sale in dollars that you couldn’t afford?

[@Rob-fx2dw]

​@@jones1351 The financial realities that MMT ignores include the principles of the demand supply price mechanism and the effect that increased competition in the market from others who have more buying power, the most dominant of which is the increased buying power of the government with higher spending of a bigger deficit based budget funded by borrowing new money created by the Federal Reserve and treasury bond sales to others. The financial reality of knowing that the Federal Reserve is the provider of new money for government to borrow. The financial reality that treasury bonds (which form the national debt) and were sold to overseas entities have to be paid off on maturity by the taxpayers in the county of creation which creates an outflow of money to those overseas entities whose buying power competes with the buying power of those in the country of origin. The financial reality that Private banks are not government and are purely private entities and do not have to borrow from the Federal reserve to be able to create new fiat credit money to lend to their borrowers. The financial reality that money created by private banks is used to pay taxes when it is spent by the borrower. If you had a printing press in your basement you could create your own new money (Jones1351 dollars) or a financial asset in any quantity you want and get people to take it for payment as long as anyone else was willing to do so. Their willingness would be if you gave a reasonable rate of interest on it. But unlike the money created by the Federal reserve and borrowed by government you would have to guarantee to redeem that money with money paid from your own resources which contrasts with what the government does by forcing the taxpayers to pay for the interest and the capital on maturity. You could by anything for sale in US dollars if you were allowed to print US dollars but you would also be unable to set the price you wanted to buy those things or buy any foreign currency at any exchange rate demands for those dollars unless the dollars were accepted by the seller of that currency. Examples of the result of what you have said are Zimbabwe dollars created in their own sovereign country like the USA does whose government could buy anything they wanted that was for sale in in Zimbabwe dollars but finally nobody was selling anything priced in Zimbabwe dollars so the financial sector including government went broke.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@jones1351 The US government does Not have an account at the Federal Reserve that is just topped up with new money for it to spend. The Federal reserve only puts money into the Government (Treasury) account when the government exchanges Treasury securities for the new money. You are confusing as MMT is of the process. The government Treasury has an account at the Federal reserve that tax collections go into. Tax collections are by far the major part of funds for government to spend. Some years taxes are almost the entire amount that funds government spending. Federal budget Surplus years means the tax collections exceed government spending. MMTers confuse the process and try to rename the elements that exist like debt and value in order to avoid admitting what they say is actually know as debt. Example are preferring to say 'net differences' instead of the correct term 'deficits' when the net difference is actually in financial terms a deficit because tax collection do not add up to budget outlays.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@ThomasVWorm Wrong facts. Kelton said as a lead in to MMT "We can all have nice things". So you are either ignorant by not doing your research or deliberately making a false statement. You say "financial reality" is strawman argument but if so then explain how you can exclude the princpiles of demand, supply and price from anything that can be purchased in the economy. You really don't know what a stawman argument actually is.

[@Achrononmaster]

@20:00 good question, the public discourse is immature and unbaked, needs time to cook. But if you listen to Bill and Wray's back-history then you see MMT⊃ post-Keynes. MMT is the off-spring but a superset of PK. There's nothing in PK that ain't in MMT, MMT just does far better in understanding floating exchange rates, central bank operations, and the real constraints. The politics is not the economics. The PK's who like the politics are working under political constraints, which they think core MMT is not acknowledging. But it's the opposite: only MMT activists are trying to educate the public that we *_need_* to remove the political constraints, there is no soft revolution under the current political constraints and US superimperialism. You will never get a Job Guarantee under an administration like Biden, Trudeau, Albanese ‡, Adern, or Starmer for instance, but you could get a lot of post-Keynesian policy through. Where is the post-Keynesian activist army I ask you? They're 70 year olds playing golf in gated retirement villages and whinging about the pimple faced MMT'ers mocking them. (Ok, we should not mock them, but befriend them instead, but it's hard man, it's hard.) ‡ Who the F is Albanese you ask? He's the prime minister of some barren island somewhere the Kiwis were about to invade before Adern took the Māori militia gunboats away to avoid a wee diplomatic incident across the Tasman.

[@UFO_computers]

I agree with SK about some of the pettiness that can arise. People need to use their powers of discretion.

[@IKTGWIW]

Yes, MMT works: just look at what's happening with the banking crisis.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@ThomasVWorm Where is your explanation of how the "real world works" ? Where did you get it from? Is it supported by independent facts? Does it fit with the explanations of the organisations who actually create things and deal with the complexity of the real world? Does it fit with historical facts which are real? Where does MMT fit with historical facts such as the history of money which contradicts what MMT says about how money operates? - Reality is it doesn't fit. Take for interest the MMT explanation of money being from the government and taxes only being paid after the government (reserve banks) has firstly issued the money. It is totally wrong because most money in the economy (about 90%) is fiat credit money created by private banks when they lend to their customers. Those banks are not government and do not get the money they lend from the reserve bank or government. They are not government agencies at all as you are not a government agent simply by having a license and are regulated by laws to drive which makes you a government agent. It is an absurd statement to claim the private banks are government or agents because they are licensed but MMT concoct some fallacy that says they are. They are purely private entities. They create it themselves as lenders and their motive is getting a return and making a profit from the repayment of the money with interest. Their profit or loss does not go to the reserve bank or government Nor do losses pass onto the reserve bank or government. That is the official explanation of the banks themselves as well as the reserve banks. Next take the MMT explanation of taxes adding value to the money and making it accepted. The historical facts are taxes do not make money valuable or make it or keep it accepted. In the last 100 years the facts are many currencies have become worthless through massive inflation despite having taxes which did not do anything to keep value in it. MMT is just a fantasy based on denial of facts and a concoction of absurdities removed from reality.

[@MrMarinus18]

@@Rob-fx2dw What you are saying is true, the private sector credit is very, very dominant in the US. However I wouldn't call that a good thing. That 90% of the money is created by private bank credit is something I see as a real issue. You assert that inflation happened despite taxes and they can happen. Especially if you have foreign currency be the main backer like was the case with Greece or if your economy is extremely dependent on a resource that's suddenly cut off like was the case with the US in the 1970's. Hyperinflation can also happen if there is a loss of trust in that government like what happened with Venezuela in large part due to US sanctions. If you have a currency that depends on government taxes to gain value then the value of that currency is highly tied to the strength of that government. If trust in that government's ability to collect taxes falls away due to internal unrest the value of that currency can disappear quickly.

[@MrMarinus18]

@@Rob-fx2dw They are not talking about what IS but rather what could be. What they are pushing back against is the notion that the government can't spend more. It can, it just needs to have the will to do it and due to the corruption that will is not there. US banks can't print fiat money, it's illegal.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@MrMarinus18 What is your issue with private bank credit which helps run the major portion of the economy and most other economies in the world? What is your answer? Where is your evidence that shows taxes out any value into money?

[@MrMarinus18]

@@Rob-fx2dw Public credit works just as well and if the banking crisis is anything to go by giving private banks the power to issue money seems kinda dicy. What's your explanation where the value comes from then? According to MMT the value comes from the power of the government. You need dollars to pay taxes and you need to accept dollars in transactions cause the government can throw you in prison if you don't.

[@Empowerman]

All Steven Grumbine's awesome #MMT work, too!!! #LearnMMT!!!

[@Achrononmaster]

SK did not truly answer the question @11:30 until @14:30 when she put her finger on it - it is that MMT is honest and accurate. Dean Baker and the post-Keynesians are not, they still use fixed exchange rate thinking. So the PK'ers get inflation wrong, even when they get deficit⟷surplus right. Nominal inflation is not a real constraint, full employment can be attained indefinitely and the deficit floated, and if the exchange rate is also floated so can the nominal price level, since inflation will then only come from imports, but that's fine, since imports are the *_real_* benefit, not the real cost. Only the "OG" MMT'ers seem to understand this Mosler and Mitchell). I don't think the others appreciate this, because they're too obsessed with the political psychology, which is the effective constraint which makes inflation a problem - a political problem, not a financial problem for the monopoly issuer, which can always ensure the real wage rises if full employment in non-bullsh1t jobs is maintained (absent asteroid strikes). In the final analysis, monopoly issuer governments with a non-convertible currency on a float can ensure full employment & price stability normally, but if they're suffering under trade embargo they have those politically imposed import constraints, so one less degree of freedom. The choice exogenously imposed then is to take inflation or unemployment. Only MMT understands you should go for full employment and take the inflation, since that is *_indefinitely_* sustainable, it's a fiat currency furchrissake. So if you win the psychological PR battle and impress upon workers their real wage is rising, and can prove it, the nominal inflation is no problem. What matters is what _all_ your dollars can purchase, not what $1 can purchase. Same in every country.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

You still don't understand what a fiat currency actually is. Fiat currencies are All backed by an equivalent amount of debt which is liability. There is no net currency the government can issue unless they take the path of Idi Amin Dada, buffoon President of Uganda in the 1970's who upon hearing that the government coffers were empty told their reserve bank to create more money to pay for things the government wanted to spend money on. - That ended so well (sarcasm intended) as your idea of creating more money will end in financial disaster if government takes that moronic approach to finances. Pity that you take the word of some crappy economists who have never been responsible for running the reserve bank. The MMT economists explanations of how the reserve banks work in creating new money is contradicted strongly by the banks who actually do the money creation themselves. It does not take much in brain power to work out who is correct. - Hint - it is not MMT.

[@nancypeterson6796]

And do you have a critique of digital cash? Do you discuss ways to prevent the financial elites who already control government from using it still more to control us? We are pretty up on the block chain and how everything we do will now be transparent and controllable by those in power right now. Why else are they championing it.

[@satyajitsheth4705]

Try to win the Nobel.

[@nancypeterson6796]

No you haven't won the inflation argument. It still gets repeated over and over how we will run out of money. I can't belief you think that. it is still the same old same old among the progressives I listen to.

[@davidwilkie9551]

What if MMT Provisioning concept is about modern money transactions in Eternity-now Actuality and the unprovable theory of perceptions of vector-values is represented by probabilistic correlations in temporal potential possibilities of substantiation in e-Pi-i flash-fractal functional superposition identification. (?) WYSIWYG QM-TIME resonance floating Singularity-point Bose-Einsteinian Condensation here-now-forever continuous creation-emanation Quantum-fields. Ie "money" is pure-math cause-effect mass-energy-momentum continuous motion in Absolute zero-infinity sync-duration Singularity terminology. (Engineering basics and Math-Physics)

[@RightTailAngst]

I can’t watch her walk all these poor souls to the slaughterhouse.

[@Achrononmaster]

They'll be no slaughter if MMT is incorrect, because they'll never gain power. Neoliberalism cannot be defeated unless there is some truthful force disrupting the hegemony. But if MMT is correct, it can be that disruption (or something else) and if correct it cannot lead to slaughter. So your comment is just foolish fantasy fear mongering for no good purpose.

[@HenriettaP]

What is Rohan’s surname?

[@sprucewayne10]

Seize the means of production, redistribute land. None of this reformist b.s. that would never get the support of congress or the courts which are both bought.

[@bondvigilante4135]

I can feel sorry for her. Have always sensed she was a well meaning person.

[@montyhogan29]

*Promo sm* 💕

[@teckyify]

Dude, stop cutting her off all the time. Are you demented?

[@Rob-fx2dw]

If one is inclined to believe Rohan Gray or Stephanie Kelton or other MMT economists one might as well to be consistent join the flat earth society because their fantasies both defy reality.

[@shumbi11]

Strong argument.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@leightonwatkins9486 And your answer to replace is what proven thinking that is not easily shown to be garbage do you suggest ? The clowns at MMT ?? If your answer is so I will almost die laughing at your answer.

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@leightonwatkins9486 In particular what sentences are you referring to ?

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@leightonwatkins9486 Perhaps you could be consistent with whom you criticize and advise Kelton to speak clearly instead of putting "You know" into every practically second sentence she utters. More than twenty times in this video alone. - "you know" , "you know" , "you know", "you know" "you know", "you know" !!

[@Rob-fx2dw]

@@leightonwatkins9486 You where unable to address the issues I raised. Unable to provide any facts. That's what people with no answers to when e they are confronted with facts they can't handle- They Try to go ad hominem like others who can't address the anomalies and contradictions within MMT itself. Try answering this: - MMT says taxes put value into and get and acceptance of the money but that was not so in all of the countries where the money's value disappeared because of inflation and nobody accepted it - not even their own government. Try answering this :- MMT says taxes are destroyed and not y used to pay for government spending or the deficit and the Treasury bonds sold by government are not used for government spending. So how is it that there were years of government had a surplus (i.e. taxes exceeded spending) and the newly created money that the Fed does to lend to b government was minimal and nowhere even a fraction of the amount government spent. - Where did the money for government to spend actually come from if not borrowing ?

[@john-lenin]

The only people confused about MMT are economists. It's fucking simple. It's not about money. It's never been about money. It's about production capacity.