Whetstone Wars - Naniwa vs Naniwa (Professional Chosera versus Diamond Resin Bonded) Battle 1k

It's another edition of whetstone wars. Interesting battle... Legendary Naniwa versus itself! We are taking their professional line, which is a synthetic stone, and putting it up against its diamond resin bonded stones. They're both the same grit but made out of different material. Will there be a difference? Let's find out!
Naniwa Professional Stones (New Chosera)
www.sharpening...
There are regular sharpening stones and then there are sharpening stones that become your most valued possessions. The Naniwa Professional is one of those products. Everything about them was designed for the most discriminating user. An experienced user is looking for a stone that not only sharpens well, but sharpens quickly. The Naniwa Professional is so consistent and quick to sharpen that it is truly a pleasure to use.
Wide Range of Grits
We stock the Naniwa Professional Waterstones in the following grits: 400, 600, 800, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, 5,000 and 10,000
Magnesia Bonding
Splash and Go
The Naniwa Professional Stones we carry are quite generously sized. The actual dimensions are 210 x 70 x 20mm. This roughly translates to 8 1/4" long x 2 3/4" wide x 3/4" thick. This size is just about perfect for most knives and tools. The thickness of the single grit stone will last countless sharpening sessions.
Naniwa Compact Diamond Stone
www.sharpening...
Diamond Abrasive in Resin
These stones employ diamond abrasive bound in layer of resin mounted to a sturdy metal base. Rather than the single layer of diamonds found on many other diamond abrasive plates, the diamond abrasive layer on these stones is 1mm thick. This layer of diamond impregnated resin allows the stone to shed worn or loaded layers to expose a fresh cutting surface. This slow shedding of worn surface makes for a water stone sharpening experience with diamond abrasives that can handle the hardest sharpening situations.
Splash and Go
A light spray of water and Naniwa Diamond Stones are set to sharpen. Their feel when sharpening is similar to that of the hardest wearing water stones, neither unduly rough nor mushy or clay-like. As with all water stones, keep Naniwa Diamond Stones wet when sharpening and allow them to air dry in between uses.
Naniwa Compact Diamond Stones are 5 5/16" x 2 15/16" x 1/4" (135mm x 75mm x 6mm).
For Very Hard Steels and Ceramics
Naniwa Diamond Stones are particularly useful when you want a water stone style sharpener, but are working with extremely hard exotic steel or ceramic. Other stones may be very slow or even ineffective for ceramic or the hardest steel knives, chisels and plane blades, but because they are diamonds, if the abrasive in these stones won't sharpen the edge, nothing will.
Stones that Stay Flat Longer
The Naniwa Diamond Stones do not wear as quickly as other water stones. The resin binder that holds the abrasive material is very hard, making them slow to dish or cup, and long lasting. These stones are handy when performing tasks where flatness is of primary importance, as when flattening chisel backs or working the ride line on hair cutting shears.
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[@robertdavis171]

I've been waiting for just this test. After starting with Chinese and Norton whetstones, I think I'm going to go withe the Chosera splash and go stones.Chinese and Norton shakers are all too soft and require daily flattening.

[@nadm]

Well, there you go. I'm glad we were able to time that perfectly for you. God has a plan! Happy new year!

[@robertdavis171]

Soakers

[@jarrodhales3666]

Chosera stones are bloody awesome! I have the 400 and 1k and love them both

[@stuartdavenport2952]

It's all about the carbides, not how hard the steel is. This is my general rule when it comes to "Do I NEED a diamond plate/stone to sharpen this steel?".......If the steel has greater than a 4% vanadium content, use diamond. However, even if a steel has 4% or greater vanadium, you do not need diamonds at the low grit levels. Vanadium carbides in powdered steels are in the order of ~4 microns, however there can be larger vanadium carbides often scattered in the steel matrix. As the abrasive size approaches the size of the vanadium carbides, that's when diamonds really start to be "needed" for a crisp apex. For example, you can take a steel like CPM 10V at 65HRC and establish a new edge with a 220 grit silicon carbide or decent ceramic stone, and even refine it up to maybe 2000 JIS. But if you want to have more refinement beyond that area (2000-3000JIS), use diamond plates. ZDP-189 is just a bunch of chromium carbides which are relatively soft as far as carbides go, and a decent ceramic will cut ZDP at any grit level very well. Start adding vanadium carbides into the mix, and that's another story. Great video as always, Greg. Keep up the great work! You and your wife do a wonderful job each week with the videos. Looking forward to more about stropping material and compounds!

[@davesmith5656]

Is "JIS" Japanese Industrial Standard? I have never seen it used before.

[@davesmith5656]

CPM S90V (Crucible Particle Metallurgy is what CPM stands for, and I'm guessing that's powdered steel alloys). Buck Knives, Spyderco, and similar knife makers rave about it, but nothing I could find in a cursory search about sharpening them. I did not look very hard. All knife manufacturers I've seen advertise how sharp their knives are, and how long they stay sharp. (Whee.) Anyone who has used a kitchen knife more than a month knows how easily they lose sharpness. I bought a Wusthof that tested 120 BESS, and within a month it was testing over 200. This alloys and abrasives stuff is new to me. I knew I'd end up looking at metallurgy. Vanadium molybdenum steel has less than 1% vanadium and is advertised as easy to sharpen. That is NOT vanadium carbide, which is usually 4% vanadium. Vanadium carbide is supposed to be the hardest carbide. As far as I have been able to dope out, all of this gets into heat treatment, cementite (6.6% carbon), martensite, some other named transformation or state of steel and carbon molecules, and more. (Metallurgy For Dummies - if anyone wants to pursue how you double temper vanadium carbides at around 450 C and 200+C for two hours each (IIRC) but never 800 C because it embrittles the stuff.) All I want is sharp knives and the skill and experience necessary to keep them sharp. Some guys are using tech higher than manual whetstones to get edges to test below 20 BESS (20 - twenty and under, even FOUR) regularly. I'm happy with under 100, and lower if I get lucky or am feeling very focused and careful that day. I think that unless someone has a fixed angle on a wheel - and whatever else the sub-20 guys have - it doesn't matter all that much what kind of steel or stone you have, if you do not have the skill and experience with whetstones. I think MOST whetstone fans can get 120-140. Do you know of any kitchen cutlery made with vanadium carbide steel? What kind of scratch marks do high-grit diamond formulations leave? When stropping a vanadium carbide steel knife sharpened on high grit diamond, what are the results?

[@peanutaxis]

Diamond stones are effectively coarser because they don't wear away and have stone material in a slurry.

[@Hi-FiChess]

I only use my Naniwa diamonds with steel with vanadium carbide, mostly folders. With steel that can be sharpened with any stone I use my Shapton Kuromaku. At the moment I don’t have super hard kitchen knives so I save the diamonds for vanadium carbides…..to clean resin bonded diamond stones use a block of silicon carbide. The full size Naniwa diamonds come with one for each stone.

[@JohnDoe-zb7dz]

Good timing. I'm considering A Venev but forgot about the Naniwa. I want something fast for 60+ RW EDC knives. Less time on a stone equals less fatigue and better consistency, IMO. Thanks for the shoot out with these two.

[@nadm]

Thanks for checking us out. Love the profile photo!

[@JohnDoe-zb7dz]

@@nadm Your welcome. Not many people know the significance of vertical stripes. Happy new year!

[@jeffhicks8428]

Hardness means next to nothing when it comes to sharpening. It's all about abrasion/wear resistance, which is all about the carbides. How much carbides and what sort. The same steel at higher hardness does have a bit more wear resistance, but it's not that much. Not even close to the difference between say a simple carbon steel to a high alloy steel, especially one with a lot of vanadium. Sharpening is abrasion. How how it is to abrade the steel. Same thing. A lot of folks confuse abrasion resistance for "edge retention." It's related but not the same thing. Edge retention is more complex and mutifactoral.

[@nadm]

@@jeffhicks8428 thank you 🙏

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

You could lay a sheet of mechanics tool drawer liner under the ponds to silence them. There's similar expanded foam liner material in rolls at the $store that works too. I'm trying a new Venev 8x3 400/800 combo diamond Phoenix series stone. So far so good. Great feel and feedback, feels like 600/1000 to me. ✌

[@JohnDoe-zb7dz]

What steels and Rockwell are you using on these? Cheers!

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

@@JohnDoe-zb7dz I've put Hitachi super blue, S35vn, 154CM, and D2 through the two grits. High amounts of chromium and vanadium don't seem to cake up at all. The blue Japanese takes the longest to apex. 👍 😃

[@nadm]

Are they still being made (Venev)? Because I thought that they went out of business or something because of the war? I hope so because I wanna get some. Please let me know what's up. And always thank you for the tips. We have a liner under there, but will try to make it better.

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

@@nadm I bought it this March. I believe it was straight from the Venev website. ✌ 😃

[@JohnDoe-zb7dz]

@@nadm Gritomatic sells them and the Columbia Gorge Stoneworks. Man I love those Gritomatic SIC stones from Russia. Cheers!

[@richvillacres2793]

Greg, first off I love your channel. I was wondering how you would compare Venev Dragon series 8x3 compared to the Naniwa Diamond stones. Money not a hindrance, which would you buy?

[@nadm]

Everyone has asked me and I don't on them. From what I understand they're supposed to be amazing. I have only heard the best of things. I just don't have them.

[@zenrazor659]

Please can you tell me if Toishi Miyabi stone is a Chosera without base?? Thanks a lot🎉🎉🎉

[@nadm]

OK. I cannot verify either. What I can tell you is that is Zwilling makes Bob Kramer's stones. His stones are actually produced by Naniwa Chosera. At first, it looks like the stones might be from the Imanishi lineup. They look exactly like them, but I can definitely be on the same train of thought you are simply because I know who they normally use for all of their stuff. I don't own the stones to test out how it feels so I technically cannot confirm, but I definitely lean towards what you're saying.

[@user-un5my5bw4j]

Greg come on now, you have been doing this long enough thar you are comparing two completely different things that really are ment for two different things. I use diamonds on my powdered steels like s90v, m390, cmp110, elmax, etc because my chosera stones will not sharpen them so I have to use industrial diamond abrasives. I will not use diamonds on my carbon steel knives, it's not good for them. That being said diamonds will cut faster than ceramic weather they are both 1000grit or not. You know this

[@nadm]

Again, that’s why we’re comparing things. Just to see what’s up. You can sharpen anything with diamond. You might not want to, or choose to. We just wanted to take a look at the Filo and the price and how fast it worked and the end result.

[@nadm]

God bless my friend. I hope you’re doing well. We’re gonna have some new Contin soon. We’ve had family in town. I only see my kids every six months. We’re still just doing the Blade show stop and then we’re gonna drop some new stuff. We’re filming tomorrow. We haven’t done a whetstone war in a while. I’m looking forward to doing them again. It’s been interesting now that I’ve had so much experience with the different stones. I think if you’re pretty good at what you do, then you can make it work with all of them.

[@davesmith5656]

Interesting notes about the type of bonding, magnesium, and resin. Not easy to get info on bonding, but I think it makes a difference, depending on the steel, too. My guess is that diamond is for metal removal more than about getting a refined edge.

[@nadm]

You and I both know that the grit, if it is the same shouldn't matter. If it gets loose from the bond, that would make sense. If the stones have been broke in a little bit, that would make sense that it's less aggressive. If you have steel that needs diamonds, then there's no comparison..

[@stuartdavenport2952]

I can see how someone might come to that conclusion, but actually it is quite the opposite. For material removal, diamond is not necessary at all, even for very hard steels with very hard carbides. The abrasive size on material removal type stones is way way bigger than the carbides, and way way harder than the actual steel matrix itself as well. So for material removal, a decent low grit ceramic works great. But as you begin to refine that edge with steels with vanadium carbide, that's when diamond comes into play. Check out my posted comment for a bit more explanation.

[@davesmith5656]

@@stuartdavenport2952 --- I replied to your posted comment. Do you happen to have hardness (Mohs or other) for some of the materials you mention? E.g. silicon carbide, ceramics, vanadium carbide, maybe aluminum oxide? I don't know if that's too complicated an answer, due to all the variables involved, such as percentages of metals and heat treatments. My experience with diamond sprays on strops, supposedly 0.5 microns, is that they tend to clump, or something, and leave very visible isolated scratches on the bevel, visible under a simple USB microscope at 200X. I've watched at least two videos that say Atoma 140 grit to whet away chips fast, or to fix concave edges left by people who are enamoured of honing rods. (I much (MUCH) prefer a common 3"x18" belt sander, a common sander designed for sanding wood, $60 bucks. Even the Old School Japanese use huge abrasive grinding wheels.)

[@sharpfactory3705]

You should try the venev bonded diamond stones

[@nadm]

I want to really bad. I don’t know why I thought they no longer we’re being made. I’m glad they are. I want to check them out really bad.

[@dadadadave100]

Aloha Greg and happy new year’s

[@nadm]

Happy new year!

[@cedricvoglet4675]

Nice comparison of the 2 stones! Thank you for this video :)

[@nadm]

Glad you liked it! I need to apologize for taking so long. I've had a surgery on my knee and some other things going on. We've had the court case for my car accident. We had to deal with that as well. We've also had some other major things happening personally. Deaths in the family and lots of arrangements to be made. Also, I'll let you know that I will be having another major surgery in June and will not be making it to the Blade show. I will be out of work for two weeks because I'm having all the extra skin cut off of my body. We do apologize for an interruption of videos if it were to happen. Will try to shoot some head for you guys so we can fill the space. That being said, thank you for checking out the show. Thank you for your support and your comment.

[@georgeyoung4292]

Dont use diamond plate to flatten resin bond naniwa.. Use either way SiC powder or just classic Alox stone.. You only want to remove the resin and expose diamond particles.. Resin is very soft, any stone will remove a bit of resin

[@nadm]

Sounds great my friend. Will give it a try.

[@MichaelE.Douroux]

Happy New Year! Ever try using a 10,000 Naniwa dressing stone to create slurry before sharpening?

[@nadm]

I don't have that one. I'll look into it at some point, but we've already spent a lot of money and you know that these higher grits cost a lot for one stone.

[@MichaelE.Douroux]

@@nadm Might have used the wrong description. $25 on Amazon: NANIWA Nagura Surface Grinding Stone"IRODORI",60 x 30 x 20mm (10,000 grit).

[@ChefS.Keller]

How about chosera 800 vs chosera 600

[@nadm]

I hear you, but I don't have either one of them

[@user-pm7pw1tl3t]

Where did you get the info that these are polly and not mono diamonds?

[@nadm]

Several sources, sharpeningsupplies.com is the first source. Then we had done some research prior when we did some videos on CBN stones versus Diamond stones. We did a lot of research and had some fun using the different stones. We also were in contact with Hans, who makes his own CB in stones. When we were doing the research on the diamond and we had to get into it for this company. Really love the products but still enjoy synthetics. Everything has its place. I'm looking forward to the triple handmade vitrified, diamond stones, and so many other manufacturers out there.

[@user-pm7pw1tl3t]

@@nadm no website i looked at nor the link you posted mentions anything other then diamond abrasive or diamond bearing.

[@nadm]

@@user-pm7pw1tl3t I think there are mono. You were asking me to recall something that has been a while. I am pretty sure monocrystaline is used for stone vs. poly for diamond emulsions.

[@user-pm7pw1tl3t]

@@nadm interesting... that in the video you say difderently, and the in the response prior you mention al the research done and contact with makers to now say the opposite.

[@nadm]

@@user-pm7pw1tl3t my initial statement was a gut reaction in which I was trying to recall from memory. Later I reread your statement and I meant to say that these were mono instead of poly. Typically whetstones are made of monocrystalline diamonds instead of polycrystalline. I had done a video talking about monocrystaline diamonds and polycrystalline diamonds as well as cubic boron nitride. My information came from that video where we talked about the different makers of diamond Whetstones, and what they normally go with, and why. I had to go back and re-watch my own video to find out that typically the monocrystaline diamonds are used in this instance. I called Scott Gunn and he confirmed that that’s the general rule. It’s not always the case but generally that’s what would be used. You can learn more information about monocrystaline diamonds, and polycrystalline diamonds in the video in the playlist.

[@jacmac0422]

While I appreciate the video I am not sure what I was supposed to get out of this video. You didnt properly sharpen/deburr on the stone. You didnt count strokes which could have told us speed. I feel like I am seeing an example of the strop vs the stone like I came for.

[@nadm]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Since I have the ability to sharpen a knife down to a 15 on the BESS, I know I have the ability to sharpen a knife to an extremely sharp edge. I've actually done it a lot without ever using leather. I'm not going to put it on a diamond emulsion where I might actually sharpen the knife again using diamonds on my leather. Bob, Kramer and I have personally talked about this technique and I have been assured by him and everything is fantastic. I recently sat with him in Atlanta at the Blade show discussing such things. Edge leading strokes are amazing for removing any of the burr. We only have to do some stropping motions after the edge leaving strokes. I did more than adequate amount per side. You're more than welcome to conduct your own experiment.

[@georgeyoung4292]

Diamond , Diamond resin and Vitrified Diamond are all about as far from each other as Water stone from Diamond stone is..Happy New Year🥳2023

[@nadm]

You know the polycrystalline diamonds, where they are they are resin bonded, or vitrified, or electroplated are the same diamond. The vitrified stone means that the diamonds are baked through the entire stone, so every single time you use it, or even decide to flatten it, you keep reviewing more diamonds through the entire thickness of the stone. The resident bonded is obviously a different way to adhere to it, but generally not that thick. The plate has to be extremely flat, so that way you can get at level because you cannot really love a little after its been put on the plate. Same thing with electroplated. A lot of effort have to be made into the metal plate that it add heres to. If you press too hard on the diamonds, then you can break the diamonds which sounds stupid because they're so hard but they're brittle. So if you're not careful and not let the diamonds do the work, then you could end up turning your 1K stone into a 3K or a 5K.

[@georgeyoung4292]

@@nadm I know everything about them both from theoretical and practical standpoint.. I have Resin bond (Venev entire combo) and Vitrified (Practical Sharpening) and ofcourse i have classic DMT plate.. Its all about bonding agent and they are all very different in the way they sharpen.. Unfortunaly Vitrified only up to 1500# JIS grit and they are much more aggressive than Resin cause of softer bond but ability to polish better and there is one more bonding (leather), softer bond at same micron make all the difference.. Actually i find Vitrified Diamond only a novelty (especially on kitchen knives) Venev or CGSW or Naniwa resin are pretty much all you need but i dont have Naniwa but i have both former.. 3mm VENEV Dragon set , its for a lifetime🙏 Thank you Sir👍PS: Thats property of polycrystalline diamonds that with time they tend to become less aggressive but i didnt notice that on Resin and Vitrified stones..

[@nadm]

@@georgeyoung4292 I didn’t know if you saw these before www.triplebhandmade.com/shop/3000-grit-vitrified-diamond-waterstone www.triplebhandmade.com/shop/5000-grit-vitrified-diamond-waterstone

[@georgeyoung4292]

@@nadm Ohhh ok i know these but at a time ive got my Practical Sharpening didnt heve yet 3000 but they made it latter but they were all just prototype.. I dont even know if PS even sell cause they only resell them but in reality they were made in Poltava.. Its long time ago 3years

[@georgeyoung4292]

Ohh i also forgot to mention that ofcourse i have Chosera too (800# and 3000#) and they are still one of my favourite but im just coming back to Venev.. They are amazing, very high quality material

[@jasonerickson1033]

Why would u not de burr on the stone before stropping I could here that huge burr when u where stropping strops are meant for little left over burrs not huge burrs no wonder u couldn’t cut jack

[@nadm]

We did an entire video where we proved that it made no difference. There’s an entire other video where we did not remove the bur between stones and then a different knife from the same manufacturer went behind on the same stones, but took the burr off in between stones, and then we did another life by the same manufacture, and took the burr off in a different way, and we found that it made no difference. It actually ended up being sharper when you didn’t remove the bar between stones. But the difference was so minuscule I called it a tie.

[@jasonerickson1033]

No you have to lighten your pressure on the diamond when sharpened on properly can’t be beat

[@nadm]

Yes, I thought that in one of the other videos that you really want to not press too hard on the diamonds and let them do the work. You’ll end up snapping the diamond and then you’ll make the diamonds smaller