Which Geo Matters? Does It Even Make A Difference? | Dirt Shed Show 494

[@gmbn]

Are geometry numbers on a fact sheet alone enough to put you off a potential purchase? Let us know 👇

[@LaurentiusTriarius]

I don't shop with too much fixed ideas about geo, it's useful to narrow the field a bit but often some combinations look weird on paper but when you try the bike it's much different...

[@Grumpydelight159]

I do tend to compare the numbers to my current bike, but honestly not sure why. Wouldn't put me off necessarily.

[@vrwgq3q]

in some cases yes, and no. Geo alone doesn't always translate to playfulness vs. stability. However knowing what you ride and your preferences is a great starting point. If you want a fun poppy trail slayer that is as good on climbs and flats... you want something more moderate and while that doesn't sound like fun, keep in mind that a Dirt Jumper has super short chain stays and super steep head tube angles. One thing that gets me is the Seat Tube and post insertion length and everyone wanting to go 210+MM... your BB height will play a big role here, not just whether its 410-450mm alone. My Torrent has a pretty high BB height, which is great as being a HT, I can run 175 cranks with little chance of pedal strikes as it doesn't compress. (yes I prefer 175mm cranks for trail riding) however this high BB, though with a shortish ST of 435, means my max dropper is about 180 as I just don't have any longer legs (I'm 6'0 in size large) Another thing I think bikes should add is about 10mm of dropout/CS adjustability. That would be HUGE

[@jokermtb]

Geometry is very important, and the axiom "the best you have is the best you know' still holds (you get used to whatever it is). I'm holding off and seeing how the 'DAK-STAK' thing might affect what size bike one chooses, or if top tubes will get longer to accommodate the hi-rise bars that are becoming a 'thing' of late....This next variable in frame geometry has yet to sort itself out. Then again, why don't we see the same 'a size and geometry configuration' for 5 different size riders, in the motocross world whereas it's common in the mtb world? If geometry is so important, why don't we see multiple size/geometry versions of the same motocross bike?

[@Shawn-in-da-Canyon]

Yes, I’ve been riding since 1989, and I’m an ex pro Open class MXer. I know what I like and I know what I don’t like.

[@DZig]

It looks like the GMBN crew is beginning to recognize that Owen is a virtual encyclopedia of knowledge. Andrew Dodd was another example of the same kind of expertise. These two are a great combination between old school and encyclopedic knowledge. Very entertaining and worthwhile watching!

[@NanoDex]

Martyn is a rider through and through. Maybe Martyn is saying stop obsessing about the parts, the angles, the weight, get out there and ride because probably the worst part of the bike system, is you!!! lol sure is with me at least....

[@corner_store_bill]

Get out and ride because you never know when the day comes that you can't anymore

[@schwangster]

Bike geometry is fine…. My geometry is the bodge!

[@ViorelSnap]

I participated in an XC race a couple of weeks ago, and got so tired that I had to stop and sit down for a bit. All the youngsters were overtaking me and climbing the steepest hills on 200-500 dollar bikes. So I would concur, fitness is number one, then comes the bike.

[@jj_mtb_2023]

Couldn’t agree more ✊

[@rogbrogb7537]

So what happened with those 2 on the downhill tandem!

[@FatbikeRepublicNL]

"Geo does not matter because nobody knows what to do." Brilliant comment Martyn. I'm in that same camp. Ride what you have, adapt to it and have fun!

[@Clint_the_Audio-Photo_Guy]

I'm not super concerned with geometry either. What I am loving though, are the blow-out prices on the bikes that are 0.5-1 degree "too steep" of a head tube angle that nobody wants, lol. I just picked up a Pivot Switchblade for darn near department store prices, ha! Just get an angle adjustable headset, if that extra degree is a major concern for you. ;)

[@iansingleton]

Martyn destroying Owens technical, mechanical, logical world with his "ahh it's all bollocks" attitude! 😂😂😂😂 There couldn't be two more opposing characters sat in front of the camera! 😂😂😂😂 It works though cos they're both nice blokes. 👍

[@theycallmebernd]

Wade Simmons once said "if you are only a 5 out of 10 rider, how can you judge a bike a 10 ?" most people get so lost in the "perfect" bike, setup, gear...

[@SergejGrabun]

I am with Martin on this. Geo means little when you just enjoy riding and cannot compare 2-3 or 4 bikes in very short time period. Later, when you ride 5-10-15 years maybe you can tell the difference and if you skill is high. Normal mortals should just get what bike they can afford, like and in their size. Like it was said, you can fine tune some details with bars, saddle, stem if needed.

[@andyrogers747]

I think bike companies pushing geo as the next big thing combined with, as you said, the industry not really knowing what "bike fit" is does not inspire confidence, warranting the frustration imo

[@semadragun]

Sales and marketing tactics 100% End of the day everyone is built differently and i wouldn't be surprised if i went and bought a brand new bike that the geo wouldn't feel as good as my older bike.

[@majun26]

Yeah like "check our cutting edge new geo, available in two sizes only" lol

[@semadragun]

@@majun26 Exactly 100%

[@cpettifer]

My hardtail and my full suspension bikes are quite different geometries. I like the difference because, as something of a beginner, I think I learn more from riding both at different times and get better as a consequence.

[@Grumpdad]

Geo Developments? Bought a new full suss 29er 2 years ago. 1st new bike since 2007. Absolutely love it. Gives me more confidence & I ride stuff I wouldn’t have previously. However, I firmly believe that, as long as your bike is in good condition, is a reasonable fit, you can still have a great day out on your bike. 😊

[@ZOB4]

I am inclined to agree with Owen on the overly-smooth trails. Is it really mountain biking if the trail is as smooth as asphalt? I’m not so sure.

[@davekal]

Slack seat tube angles suck for people with long legs, steep seat tube has been a game changer for me.

[@rotorblade7363]

My go-to rides are a full suspension trail bike and a fat bike. Their geometry is about as different as can be. I believe you should "play it as it lays."

[@hallstewart]

Unsurprisingly, a longer bike and slower steering improved climbing and straight line descending. The surprising thing was how little it impacted agility.

[@KevinT3141]

Love the focus on the trails in Tof's sickest thing!

[@ChrisCapoccia]

Do year to year geometry changes matter? Probably not. But if you have a 10 year old bike, a new bike will be a big, noticeable change in geometry

[@Brendan95902]

I think that geometry and tweaking it can make a huge difference. I have a 2022 alloy Specialized Stumpjumper and went from syandard 140mm fork to a Fox 36 150mm (160mm with a kit) and the slightly slacker head angle has made it more forgiving of my mistakes. Additionally putting a shorter stem and wider bars on my wife's 2011 Trek Cobia 2 has made it much more stable for her - no more OTB issues for her.

[@yodapig]

Yes, but I think that's the point - you've adjusted your geometry to suit you (and your wife) using different components... a few mm here and there on the frame geometry each new model year makes little if any difference, and simply costs [the manufacturer, and in turn the customer] more money with new moulds and jigs year after year.

[@brucemackay8786]

Being on the start of the outer end of bike fit 6'4", I have that "Geo is the most important aspect of a bike.". Esp as it fit to kinematics. Eg. My 2009 Reign X in XL size, had a 625mm HTT, 67ha and 73sa I HAD to run a 10O+ stem. No bike ever fit. Yeah, I just rode b/c ❤ riding bikes... BUT I was ALWAYS aware of the geo holding me back, the shite kenematics that resulted from those poor fits had a cost of joint issues, fequent endos, and broken parts. I always had to bodge the fit. If you were ( back in the day ) under 5'10" you could up and down size (depending on inseam cause size was seattube based, not TT baaed). Now with short seat tubes (My XL dually and hard tail have long seat tubes at 490mm and 470mm (both have 180mm droppers though) and both have a 655 HTT and I run 780 mm bars which means run 60mm stems. I haven't endoed in 6 years! The bikes simply FIT, b/c of geo.

[@brucemackay8786]

Oh FTR the at was my 3rd dual suspension. My first was a purchased brand new 1998 Rocky Element.... so.... got a couple days in the saddle.

[@ericfroehlich976]

1 million percent. I had a jeffsey xl frame with 490 reach that felt way bigger than my new Occam SL large frame with 490 reach as well. Geo is everything.

[@SonnyDarvish]

huh interesting..

[@stephenlightstone9275]

I own two bikes. Trek Roscoe 9 hard tail and a Trek EXe 9.7 full suspension I can’t really tell much difference when riding them. Wouldn’t have a clue about chain stay lengths and all that stuff. I think you adapt to what you ride. A professional will of course notice but the average Joe, I don’t think so. Interesting topic though.

[@winklertribe5268]

Geometry does matter! So numbers do guide my bike choice. I have an amazing XC bike that is difficult to ride because it’s too big and I feel that I’m never positioned properly on the bike.

[@adamdon5381]

Geometry discussion really interesting- as a shorter rider (5’8”) that likes a smaller bike I have found as bikes have got longer/29er etc they are definitely more unwieldy & less playful in smaller sizes. The idea of true sizing is really attractive. On that note I have a frame that was made in a 29er & a 27.5 version- like an idea of a mullet but no flip chip and was thinking is there merit in buying a replacement rear triangle of the 27.5 and shortening it up?

[@majun26]

They're long enough already and the wheels big enough to make them feel a lot worse jumping, that's for sure, although they roll over a tree stump like a monster truck.

[@the_nondrive_side]

The bigger your wheels are the better. I really liked the mid 2000's Gary Fisher XC bikes.. full suspension bikes are still wild. Sort like the upright geo

[@SkyMccullagh]

Thank you for simplifying what kinematic means Mr. Ashton!

[@kosti116]

My bike is too Old to know of his cinematic 😅 but last time i add new fork (120mm travel2 27,5 ) and i change hed angled on 2° slager :D Old was 26' 😊

[@kjracz15]

Oh, an Owen series of videos on the playlist? Why wasn't this told in the podcast? Well, time to sit back and enjoy. 😊

[@Shawn-in-da-Canyon]

The next geo change, like some motorcycles, is a negative stem. Yes, a longer frame and a short stem the is turned around 180°. There’s already a company testing frames and this concept.

[@jeffhayes1855]

Look at the riding of Mr Ashton twenty years ago. And Jeff Lenosky or Ryan Leach. Certainly weren’t held back by geometry.

[@alanbussell7894]

One thing they need to do is stop speccing 175mm or 170mm cranks on virtually every manual bike. Surely they should be shorter on smaller bikes.

[@danm5810]

Yes geo numbers alone would put me off. New Ibis example pushing me to large that’s bigger than some xl in other brands. I think the next change is less obsession about reach only and more about stack and reach combined.

[@Metal-Possum]

Modern geometry lost my interest recently. The direction mountain bikes took in the past decade was bike parks hijacking mountain bikes to be much more focused at gravity-assisted riding or any other scenario where you're expected to go fast. I just want a bike that can allow a variety of riding and a sense of adventure, my current 22 year old hardtail does that for me perfectly, and I can still descend on it if I have to, rim brakes and all.

[@kevinrobins2190]

I think Martyn is right , it's what feels right to you 👍

[@StephenRose-eu1vh]

The image of the white Propain in the bike vault looks like there is a tornado 🌪️ in the background….. #Supernice…..

[@LaurentiusTriarius]

People think they want their BB to dig in the loam but in practice it's not practical 😅

[@blurglide]

Yeah too slack and low sucks for a trail bike. Makes climbing and obstacles really difficult.

[@richardwatson2348]

Agreed mate. If I put my vitus sommet in the lower BB setting I hit lots of rocks. Especially with 170mm cranks...

[@ElveZ83]

Thats the most outstanding thing for me after 20 years off of a mtb. BBs are so low and i have to put so much thought in my line and pedal position over uphill obstacles...

[@blakekennard7700]

While I do agree you should “run what you brung” and have the best time with what you have, there is something about geo that caters to your own style, that elevates the experiences you have. So imo there are geo ranges that I really desire because I want my bike to feel how I want it to feel to have the type of experience I’m after.

[@ItsMe-xl5bi]

Personally I feel like Martyn says..... You have your bike.... Adapt your riding style and trails to suite your riding

[@fredEVOIX]

thanks for the inner tube bike stand trick super useful ! looking forward for the bike you need vs want, time to buy an emtb for me and I so want 170mm but I'm not an enduro rider and never will what I want is emtb-hiking on non dedicated trails (also known as freedom)

[@Houseofdistractions]

We do sing hacks and bodges along with you! Owen doesn’t know the tune 😂

[@robclemson325]

great content on evolving geometry but just a thought - what are we riding these bikes on? We need bikes to match trails - I stopped using my ‘bike park’ build bike on the Marin as I realised I was too fast for the design of the trail

[@ExplosiveNotes]

Yeah, I get issues with the stearing nut on my bike. Last couple rides the bike bunnyhoped terribly and now my stearing nut is damaged.

[@ltrtg13]

What does Owen and Martyn think about the Pinkbike Grim Donut? If I want different kinematics. I either change the flip chip or shock linkage and rear wheel on Pinkeye. I have no idea what the linkage rate is.

[@rip.tear.]

Some geo matters to me, especially effective top tube length because if it's too long or short then the bike won't fit me.

[@johngreason9964]

Geo is input - output. What the rider inputs, the geo will dictate how the output feels. What is the current trail situation, steep, tight, or fast and straight. Is an input. The geo shall be the output of how the bike will handle it. How it will behave. Add pilot and environmental inputs together, and the geo is the output together. Thus. How the bike "rides". It literally means everything. Kinematics. Longer as compressed for stability, and believe it or not. Grip. But also, don't forget about, frame Kinematics under heavy braking... Stack, reach and chain stay. The pillars of fitment. Tip. If you're in-between sizes, always go bigger. Taking away reach with a short stem, bar sweep back is ALWAYS better than adding reach. Deeper stack is almost always a plus too. Cheers,

[@ftrujillomunizaga]

Can't wait for the new GMBN thong!

[@niclaskarlin]

17:40 I thought this comment was for the banana hammock something something...

[@TivonSanders]

I live in Detroit Michigan. In Southeast MI, we dont have any areas where we can go downhill more than say, 1 minute. The majority of our trails are old school cross country trails with a lot of flat terrain and punchy climbs and quick descents. A current bike with a HTA of mid 60's would be overkill for our trails. My current bike is a super cheap custom built Schwinn full suspension with a HTA of 70 and a STA to match, and you know what? I do just fine around the trails. The only 2 trails I can think of that are "modern" are the DTE Foundation and Stoney Creek Metropark trails.

[@mythotical406]

I know this will probably get lost in the comments but everyone should look into the health benefits of taking a boron supplement. I'm 46, lean and my blood tests are always right down the middle of normal. I eat fairly healthy but I will never give up dairy or red meat. I fast until the middle of the day aside from the half & half I put in my 2 8oz quad cappuccinos. I usually eat scrambled eggs with chopped greens and cheddar with toast for brunch. 4 times a week I go for a 10 mile ride with a bunch of street tricks and hill charges mixed in. Dinner is always made at home and always includes balanced nutrition. Desert is had about half of the time and nothing after 7pm. Before boron, I was probably heading down the path to poor health yet I had always eaten healthy. I started noticing results in a week. Within 2 weeks, I felt like I was 25 again. After 3 years of taking 9mg every day, I still feel healthy and young. Hope it helps.

[@Scottslookingabout]

with the higher front axle, the bike needs to be slacker, to keep the front wheel contact point, at the same angle from riders center of mass. Not to sure about the bell, sounds pretty muffled. Liked the video, good stuff, you guys are great!

[@ollielewis-99]

Well done 🎉

[@andyarchitect]

You are both right... ride what you've got... but properly consider geometry when buying a new bike 👍

[@tbgiw]

100% agree with Owen, tech trails for the win!

[@Shawn-in-da-Canyon]

I would always size up. I can learn how to turn a longer, bigger bike. Stability is very difficult to learn and improve on, everything else being equal.

[@Chubbyfella1100]

When in looked for my new bike I researched everything except for the geometry just cause I know I’ll be able to adapt just a bike and especially because I was going up a size anyway

[@01FozzyS]

No caption contest for this week? 🤔

[@JosephSAi2HT]

So i reckon Martyn is a leader who fashions the purpose in engaging a team to flourish from what they posses -in what she described in a Masterclass, a former CEO of Pepsi- in their, “hip pocket.” I hear successful leaders know how to fruitfully engage their team to engage at their best, and Martyn seems to be doing this in real time. Ive been particularly attracted to the coupling of “nerdy” in GMBN to which serves me personally as then having a variety of (no pun intended) nutrition for my needs as a content consumer. Had it been for not and that as well in YT-content-specific network charges for GMBN, i still would be a consumer as i would pay for that immersive content; to which GMBN provides in both tech and general. Particularly, both Owen and Doddy have reached a broader scope of mind to provide informed decision-making. Both of whom have their own ways in asserting an implication of that in which a rider should consider given all riders are different in their own right. The technical assertions for riders can be likened to that scrutinised of financial advising and the conformation to receiving necessary particulars for advice therefore. Simply, Owen provides a great level of self scrutiny that is thoughtful and i am able to consider it effectively, relative to, “all other things constant,” then go with it. Its a nuance of empathy to not risk and be respectful to my intelligence of being able to ascertain purpose. The balance of technical and simplyPractical is an amazing trait of GMBN. Don’t underestimate the intelligence of viewers like me, with all due respect. I love all your flavors of asserting information to be able to have fun and ride a bike, in saftey with less probable effect to injury. You can only do that for us in the combination of content you are providing. Competitive advantage typically wins the survival of fittest part of life. #Attitude4Gratitude #GMBNservesFunSafelyOnABike

[@bangaloretrailrider2472]

I think it is about how the industry brings bike customization to you. Does you local Bike shop have people who are trained enough to advice you when buying such a bike? I like the idea of personalization provided manufacturers start working with their marketing chains especially the last mile vendor to make the purchase a good experience. How can we do this minimizing cost is the key.

[@JRudd]

Shout out to Gary Fischer! My first serious mtb.

[@zobilamouche420]

I always sing the hacks and bodges jingle !

[@RacingRalphEVO]

I’m 174cm (5’8) and didn’t really bother about geometry until I got a 470mm reach 29er about 3 years ago. Since then I was trying to get used to it but I still feel like a passenger on my own bike. And I don’t gel with the big front wheel either. I just can’t get comfortable with it moving around/sliding. Now I don’t know if it’s just my skill that regressed or maybe I should get a smaller bike.

[@hallstewart]

If the front wheel feels like a different country, it's possible the bike is a little too big for you.

[@donaldmurray7529]

Geomatics? Kinemetry? Hopefully my headache subsides during my ride!

[@gmbn]

Best not think about it too hard! 😅

[@mtbrider8286]

Isn’t propain one of your bike sponsors? Why wouldn’t you give it a super nice in the bike vault then? If they were giving my guys free bikes, they’d get super nice every time 😆

[@garyherndon4722]

I know this is a waste of comment space, but I still think you could eliminate the background "music" (noise) and it would not hurt the presentation. I can't listen to this with headphones. Will have to wait until family leaves the room and use speakers.

[@corner_store_bill]

Geometry only matters when you are buying a bike. At the end of the day you will adapt to the bike you have. You will never (unless custom built) get a bike that fits you 100%.

[@danielcedolin2034]

If you have a 130 travel fork on a full suspension bike and decide to put a 160 on the front is that bad or will it work. .

[@mikeburgh3956]

What's the recommendation from manufacture? If 130/140? Then 150/160 should be fine! I wouldn't go over 20mm from recommendation

[@jokermtb]

Paw and knutt injury by the looks of it! 0:38 !!!!

[@niclaskarlin]

Apart from weight and height, our bodies are also distributed differently. I have longer legs and shorter torso, compared with my equally tall son.

[@budsuds]

Does geometry matter? Yes. Does it matter to the average rider/consumer who isnt racing? No, no it doesnt.

[@Squirrel_Rides]

Sign me up for Tom’s advenduro genre 👏🏼

[@ChampyOnPC]

You can overcome a lot of the things with becoming a better rider with experience, sure... I can come down on a steep rockslab with an XC bike (70 head-angle) and with my trail bike (64.5), but im gonna be much more confident and safer on the trail bike and therefore enjoy it more. Same thing why you don't take your Prius to overlanding... could you do it with a lot of experience? possibly... would you be confident/ safe? hell no 😂

[@andrew_gardner]

Someone please make a Daft Punk/Owen Geo convo remix - Slacker, Longer, Faster....

[@davidtomasetti8520]

I hope this fad of scratching out a bunch of berm in corners comes to an end soon. it looks stupid and its horrible for the trails

[@SwordFighterPKN]

Geometry for me is head angle and reach, at least when comparing a new frame against a frame I already have.

[@reggie5989]

#AskGMBNTech Hi, so I have been getting a "banging" noise when riding down technical terrain. It's sound like to noise you get engaging the free hub, but louder. Think it something to do with the derailleur as I the chain some how jumped off the front chainring (which is the first time it's happened). Could it have something to do with my new cranks?

[@iansingleton]

Is there such a thing as the perfect Geo for a MTB in its respective discipline? Sure it's the perfect Geo for a specific rider? Unfortunately we can't go round testing 40 different rigs before buying! If we tried it would probably take so long that by the time we decided on a particular bike that company would've probably brought a new generation out! So I agree with Martin. As long as the Geo is in the ball park it doesn't really matter. I rode just as well on 26" as I do on 29" or just as bad depending who was watching 😂😂😂😂

[@jonnypennell2428]

No one ever mentions how high front ends have got, folks are longer now, baes are higher

[@dcv9460]

I just ride the bike that I have and enjoy riding the trails 😅😅😅

[@barfo281]

Gimmicks change every year to get y'all to keep buying new bikes, even though what you're riding right now is fine.

[@augustmousel]

We need global snow boarding network

[@creekboi7]

The Thong Song, some call it.

[@Alan_27ATH]

If geo wasn't important, there wouldn't be so many different frame categories and sizes.

[@ChrisITW04]

They need to sell bikes so make changes every year

[@roqclimber]

Humans are highly adaptable. You will adapt to virtually any Geometry.

[@iansingleton]

UPLOADER LINK ISNT WORKING!!!

[@scriptive9864]

Id size down due to playfulness

[@blurglide]

Why were head tubes so steep in the first place?

[@alindberg8001]

I think they just took road frames with large tyres and inherented the geo from them.

[@hallstewart]

like everything on mountain bikes = standards came from the availability beach cruiser components.

[@blurglide]

@@hallstewart What component dictates what angle you weld two tubes together?

[@ChampyOnPC]

#AskGMBN Can a dropperpost failiure result in an explosion? I recently watched a video about how cheap office chair's gas chamber can potentially explode when met with higher forces. Can that happen with a dropper post?

[@TheScramble8]

I sang along.

[@joeroche552]

Geo is marketing sure it kinda matters but for most of us we are just dasseled by the marketing

[@Shawn-in-da-Canyon]

No, if you have the experience, geo is everything.

[@joeroche552]

@@Shawn-in-da-Canyon thats what im saying for most people its marketing, i snowboard and can feel every difference on a new board, the side cut, the extra stiffness, the camber profile everything. now could i tell a couple of degrees in a head angle? could a lot of people buying new bikes? its the same as most dont use their bike to its most potential, how many 10k bike are being bought when a 3k one what do just as good. you get my point

[@alindberg8001]

@@joeroche552 is geo is marketing, then go testride a 90s mtb and say it's as fast and secure as a modern bike.

[@joeroche552]

@@alindberg8001 One of my bikes is a 90's bike (DMR Trailstar) and its fine, bit heavy, bit 'ol'skool' handling wise but still usable in fact i do use it for pump track duties. im not saying its alllllll marketing im saying for most people it mostly is. So my point is that yes modern geo is better but as long as a bike is modern it takes a decent rider to tell the difference, im i explaining my self

[@bassw1758]

Modern Geometry isn't all it's cracked up to be, not even better down hill once you throw in one hair pin turns, because the steering is slower, the increase in stability isn't going to benefit a skilled rider much. Modern geometry is only better for getting over big roots and rocks, worse in every other situation

[@tbull1545]

bungie cord bike stand my whole life this isn't a hack.

[@Ollie_Clarke_MTB]

can you by me a mtb

[@OmsrPA]

🎉

[@Magoo71]

What's Mr Ashton been smoking ??? Geometry does. not matter>????

[@yodapig]

Size matters, but I think what he was getting at that a few mm here and there just for the sake of change each new model year is unlikely to be noticed by the average rider?

[@KevinT3141]

Sang, no thong.

[@Stevedaweirdo]

Geometry = who give a $-&#t

[@PepsFTW]

A good video to loose subs. Toodles!