Which Monitors Did I Choose… Neumann KH420 vs Focal Trio 11 Be Review

[@fabriekaudio]

I have a 7.1.4 Neumann system with 3x KH420. They are brilliant and your input about them is 1000% truth! Congrats on the new speakers! =)

[@warpacademy]

Cheers mate. Glad you like the KH420. Congrats on your channel as well! Looks like you've been putting some quality videos out there. Stay in touch!

[@MarcoPolux]

Hey Fabriek! I see you have a Footprint (are they the F01?) how do you like them?

[@adamhennessy007]

Love how clear you are in your description of why you chose these monitors. Always love your vids man.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks brotha! Much love to ya Adam.

[@EdSoloUK]

I would love to hear you mix reference playlist but I don’t use tidal. Do you ha a list or screenshot of the tracks anywhere?

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. I have it on Spotify actually. But when I use them I always download lossless versions. It also really depends on genre. What genre are you working in?

[@EdSoloUK]

I mainly do DnB but I also like to listen to references in all styles. What’s the playlist name?

[@warpacademy]

Hey Ed. Sure. Here’s my list of random (all genres) references: open.spotify.com/playlist/1oDNtFZIXqBqv21xe34jhQ?si=RJ0WvZDjRDSAO3WGhE3hkA&pi=u-pipcndr6QZer And here’s one that’s all drum n bass. Although this contains many songs that aren’t reference material. It’s more of a collection of tunes I like for various reasons. open.spotify.com/playlist/4YwuIZowti0LHKR3XjSxKI?si=9OI5b3XJSSSJfDLlFOnhog&pi=u-9sRKjJGGSDKg

[@plokitheplok]

Wonderful review, great points throughout. I picked Focal Trio11Be, based on my experience with KH310 which I didn't like at all, so i didn't consider KH420 at the time i was picking speakers. I've had them for about 2 years now. Flush mounted. Paired with 15" custom-made sealed subwoofers with closed off ports. I don't mix country/folk/classical :) But pop and trap mostly. However, i have woofers so, bass extension is not an issue for me, although I have a small control room. I agree with pretty much everything you said in your review about the Trios, your observations are spot on. I'm not sure how KH420 is different to KH310 since midrange and tweeter are identical, and mids/tweet is what I disliked about them the most. (I have to emphasise this is purely subjective, i don't think they're not good, the sound just didn't sit well with me). Did you test both monitors flush mounted, or on stands? In my experience, Trios11 need more distance (2m at least, preferably more) than what they say in the manual (1.5m i think?). At 1.5m, they don't work well at all, focal is completely underestimating the distance these need to properly integrate. +lack of waveguides that Neumann have makes them extremely picky of the environment.

[@warpacademy]

Hey Ploki. Thanks for your comment. Glad to hear my thoughts also agree with your long-term experience with them. In terms of listening distance, I was 2-3 meters (6'-9') away. Neumann recommends 5' to 9' so I was in that range. Same for the Focals. They had lots of space to integrate the signal from drivers, but sadly it did not. I did not have them flush mounted as that's highly impractical. As you know, you need to carefully cut speaker holes into your front wall and load the support system bushings correctly. I was not going to do all that for a head to head test. Only for the final pick. So I used them on stands, right up against the front wall to minimize out of phase bass SBIR.

[@dufonrafal]

Yeah, just out of curiosity I checked one of the test song you show, Tommy's Theme, and just as I expected : the peak indicators stuck in the red clipping all the way... The reason why the Focal's hurt your hears is because the Be tweeter can reproduce the square waves that hurt your hears. It's showing you the issue in the music. Listen to some properly mixed/master tracks and it won't hurt your hear. That's my experience with Focal. Those test tracks hurts my hears too. But I can blast something like Daft Punk RAM at 110dB with no issues.

[@warpacademy]

Hey mate. Thanks for the comment. So, a couple things here. I was showing you in the video a B-roll shot of Apple Music, in which the songs will be compressed with AAC encoding, which will cause overs due to lossy AAC compression. If you listen like that, you'll get overs. You're totally correct there. However, that was just a B-roll shot for the video. When I actually listen to the monitors, I use lossless .wav files where there is no compression noise added from lossy compression. There are no sample peak overs in the files I use. On some of the louder files (like -4 LUFS Noisia files) you will get ISPs. This is why this.... I also extensively use mixes and masters of my own, where I've left up to 1.5 dB of limiter margin. There is no possible way there are any overs in those files. Not even TP overs. In all cases, without exception, the Focals hurt my ears. And it's not just these ones; it's also their other models that I've heard with many types of music, in many rooms. Their tuning is known to be bright and I don't like it. This is not some issue with the files I used, or the playback system introducing ISPs. I'm using a variety of songs, including those with large margins and using pro-spec DA with oversampling.

[@dufonrafal]

@@warpacademy Hey, thanks for your reply, but Apple Music is lossless now. This song is in ALAC 16/44.1

[@warpacademy]

Ah, I didn't know Apple Music has gone lossless. That's sweet. Aside from this specific track, I'll say again that I used a range of references. Many of them had sufficient limiter margin on them to assure no overs. Some were pretty hot masters; some were masters optimized for streaming, so they maintained a margin even with TPL. My observation of the high frequency harshness of the Focals was across all of the references so it's not something linked to a specific hot master.

[@wraithdrops]

Thanks for that awesome shootout. For a while now, I've been a fan of the Neumann sound, but I have not had the pleasure to test out the 420s. After hearing your take on them, I am convinced that I need to experience them for myself. Also, can't wait to see the new studio build!

[@warpacademy]

Definitely recommend listening to them in person! That’s the only way you’ll really know if you love them. Glad you liked the video. Thanks for stopping by the channel!

[@zuu1701]

I own the KH420's + subs and did a shootout with all the comps in that price range, this review is funny because its literally word for word how I would describe the Neumanns. Excellent review & its really interesting to hear musical peers hearing the same things from the KH420's.

[@warpacademy]

Glad you like the KH420s. They really are on point.

[@zuu1701]

@@molandsonsmotors9690 no, not at all. Although I will say, I found the DSP really unusable. With it switched on, it sucked TONNES of sub out of my system. I spent two days trying to calibrate it over and over & even had help from Neumann. I think the DSP is personally just quite gimmicky. I mix with it switched off as I’ve given up trying to make the DSP improve the sound.

[@warpacademy]

I'm with you. When you have a good room with proper acoustics, the DSP isn't necessarily doing much benefit. And in general, the DSP is not advanced enough. It typically tries to boost frequencies that are causing boundary nulling, which can't be fixed by room EQ. If I ever do use any room EQ, I restrict it to only operate on 500 Hz and below and only allow it to make subtractive bell cuts on areas of constructive interference or room modal resonances to tame them up a bit. Or if I want a broad spectral adjustment like the Bob Katz 1 kHz to 20 kHz 7 dB HF tilt or an LF shelf boost.

[@MakePopMusic]

Neumann makes quality gear all around and their monitors are definitely on par with their reputation. They are super full but still detailed. Can't go wrong!

[@warpacademy]

Fully agree!

[@xthetrader_]

Hi! After watching your video, I'm leaning more toward the Neumann KH 310 over the Focal Trio6. Is it safe to assume that your comparison on the larger variants would also result in a similar case for the smaller monitors I mentioned? Btw I have a set of Neumann NDH 30 headphones and I really really like them. So, that is also influencing me to potentially go with the KH 310 over a different brand of 3-ways. I work primarily with post-production, but when I work on music, it's usually hip hop, pop, and reggaeton. Looking forward to your response. Thanks.

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. I've extensively listened to several models of Focals. The Trios, the Twin 6 Bes. They all sound similarly brightly tuned, high-end dominant, and shrill to me. I think it's just the way their entire line is tuned and I don't like it. There may be speakers they make that aren't like this, but AFAIK it's part of the "Focal sound". Some engineers love them but they're not for me. I would recommend you to have a listen to the 310s. Don't commit to a monitor without trying it. But I expect you'll like them!

[@pbenson56fran]

Thank you very much. I did appreciate the information about selecting monitors for your style of music. Of course, I hope I said that right. Have a nice day everyone.

[@warpacademy]

Cheers Paula! Nice to chat with you on the premiere.

[@linadecaseleycarloss5838]

Thorough & enlightening. Subscribed.

[@warpacademy]

Welcome aboard!

[@newgunguy4176]

What's the difference in accuracy between ported and sealed monitors? Is it true that ports are a way to "fake" low frequencies that the monitors can't produce on their own? Is it true that sealed monitors are more forgiving of improperly acoustically treated rooms?

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. You're correct, bass reflex ports in monitors create a tuned resonance that usually sits right at or below the rolloff point for the LF driver. They extend the frequency response substantially, which is usually a really good thing. But then when they do roll off, they do so at a much sharper rate. Sealed boxes will roll off higher but will do so more smoothly with a gradual slope in the subs. I see no reason why a sealed box would perform better in a reflective room. Sealing a box does not change the directionality of the drivers AFAIK. What matters in a reflective room is monitor directivity index and how much energy they're throwing off-axis. Both ported and sealed boxes will radiate bass spherically unless it's a cardiod design. And then mids and highs will have a directivity index as well, but are more focused forwards. The more energy a monitor throws off axis, the more room gain you'll get and the more blurring of the phantom center and stereo image you'll get from side wall reflections. Acoustic treatment addresses this very easily, even if you use fairly thin porous absorption on your side wall and ceiling primary reflection points.

[@iSirTaki]

in the meantime... did u measure them in with the MA-1 Software, or is that only possible with a DSP like in the KH750s? I have a 750 with a pair of 120s and the outcome of the MA-1 adjustment was night and day.

[@warpacademy]

There's no need for using the MA-1 on a stereo pair. You're not having to phase align a sub, or immersive monitoring setup, so the system has no real benefit. My monitors were flush mounted into a hard front wall, so they're perfectly aligned. When I align them on stands, I use a ranging laser, so again there's no need for MA-1. In terms of room correction EQ, I use Sonarworks for that but very carefully. I use no room correction at all in my control room as the acoustics are top notch. But in my listening / office / KZbin studio I do use room EQ. I place limits on the software to only allow subtractive and not additive changes, and restrict it to 500 Hz and below. Anything additive will likely be attempting to correct for boundary nulling, which is impossible in commercially available REQ, or it will be attempting to even out high-Q comb filtering that just ends up making the signal sound phasey. I use only general spectral tilts using the target / house curve.

[@CraigAdams-s9i]

Thanks - that’s been really useful!

[@warpacademy]

Glad it was helpful!

[@danieleither]

I'm curious, in the video you have the Focals mounted horizontally, however the mid / tweeter are orientated for vertical use. Surely this would affect the listening experience, given that the mid / tweeter are designed to be rotated depending on speaker orientation?

[@warpacademy]

Hey Daniel. They were just oriented that way for shooting B-roll, not for listening. You're 100% correct that the mid and tweeter orientation matters, and if you don't rotate the module for horizontal use, then you'll affect the frequency response significantly due to the time of flight / phase differences. I'm well aware of this acoustical behaviour and tested all the monitors vertically only. Cheers!

[@danieleither]

@@warpacademy thanks for clarifying :)

[@warpacademy]

All good!

[@malibustacy3606]

You speak well, you articulate well and you make good sense, and that's why I enjoyed this.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks.

[@joehagenmusic]

Dude, I'm reading all ur comments now and I just want to THANK YOU for being the first pro that I've come across with a really critical ear. I hold all the same exact opinions that I have on all these monitors. I tried soooo many of them, also I think I'm sold on the Neumann's... Utterly perfect for mixing and mastering. Also agree w your take on the ATC's, sub is 100% necessary. Focals: I say the same thing. They sound SO great, but I feel like it's a bit saturated or something in the upper frequencies... Just seemed so "hi fi" sounding to me, I know I would quit working on a track before it was done if I was on Focals. But yet again, the Neumann's are just so clean and clear. I love that they are so flat at 80-85db spl

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the comment and kind words Joe. That's neat you've been able to listen to all these speakers. It's pretty rare to be able to evaluate them all. Interestingly, I was recently speaking to Wes Lachot and discovered that he also only sells and recommends the Neumanns and ATCs. But if he installs the ATCs, he always mounts them hard flush - which gives you a big bass boost due to baffle step. So you could get away without a sub under them if you're hard flush mounting them. Cheers and hope to see you around the channel.

[@joehagenmusic]

@@warpacademy Thanks to being in LA there's a lot of show rooms and studios around to check them all out! But yea, that's the thing w ATC - flush mounted into the wall. It really does bring them right back w the bass. Appreciate the reply! I'll keep up w the vids, keep em coming, it's helping a whole bunch of people get over GAS and get into the science of room treatment. Thx man!

[@warpacademy]

Right on. Happy to hear that! More videos launching soon. Cheers!

[@stevedoesnt]

All of these things I have found true with my kh120s and kh750 sub. Not too bright, great stereo image, and a huge thing for me, they seem to somehow stay even in their response at many volumes.

[@warpacademy]

Totally agree. The biggest thing I likes about the Neumanns was the flat sound at all levels with my reference tracks.

[@darkstar.runner6669]

Same Chosen setup for me After trying a lot of „shootouts“ with Adam, Genelec, Focal, Dynaudio & Neumann at the Time i was looking for New monitors at my Spot … neumann kh120 with kh750dsp sub -> cause They are the best working Solution for my Kind of Bass Heavy music (EBM, Techno & hardore / uptempo Techno) …

[@marinbandalo4910]

​@@darkstar.runner6669 can you help.. How smart is it to buy that system for home use.. kh870×2 + kh310×2 The space is about 75m2 and what do you recommend?

[@Underview]

I demoed the trio 8s and the tweeter sounded like it blew out. When I mentioned it to the salesman he just said that’s how it was suppose to sound. That was a big no go for me. I get the feeling that their speakers are designed for audiophiles first and then adapted to the prosumer market. It doesn’t make much sense to have aggressive high end unless you plan on putting them in an untreated room, then it makes perfect sense.

[@warpacademy]

Yeah I’ve listened to many of their models now and notice a consistent tuning between all of them. They are incredibly bright and aggressive in the top end and, for me, lacking sorely in the bottom end.

[@Topnikko]

I really love the look of the KH420. I'm looking at them for use in my home audio system. Are you saying they're not suitable for that?

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. The KH420s are designed as a professional studio reference monitor. They are not aimed at the HIFI or audiophile listening market. I would not use these for general listening. Do some quick research on the difference between studio reference monitors used by engineers vs HIFI speakers used for recreational listening to learn more. Cheers!

[@michaelrobinson9643]

Thank you for the commentary. I'm interested, given your remarks about the "hyping" of speakers - how would you feel about having the Neumann's as the front stage for a Home Cinema? The Focal's? I'm unsure if your remark of "honesty" in the presentation is what we should be aiming for to hear what the original is? I didn't catch any remarks on sound stage either - any thoughts?

[@warpacademy]

Hey Michael. Thanks for watching and commenting. I would not use the Neumanns for anything other than studio reference monitors. If it's for home cinema, I'd have totally different priorities and the Neumann's would be non-starters. Also the acoustics of a home theatre environment are totally different than a non-environment control room, like with my implementation. For a studio reference monitor I'm looking for accuracy, precision, truth (aka "honesty") in a speaker. No perceptible coloration ("hyping") of the sound (in terms of frequency response), especially in the LF. Accurate, fast, and tight transient response across all frequencies, etc. The true sound stage of the speakers was being colored by my listening space. Because I was able to compare the Focals and the Neumanns in the same room, I was able to evaluate them relative to each other. I'd say both are adequate and un-hyped. However, now I have the Neumanns flush mounted into my control room's hard front wall with surrounding treatment in place. This is the true way to hear their potential, as all cabinet edge diffraction and diffraction from equipment in my testing room is gone. Their sound stage is excellent. I'm able to hear things in mixes that I have not caught on other systems, and that's one of my benchmarks. Hearing instruments placement in a mix is extremely precise. Although this precision is coming very much from the room and front wall flush mount configuration. I expect the Focals would also have performed very well in the same situation / room / mounting setup. Cheers!

[@RavvRav]

Finally i meet someone that have similar preferences in studio monitor,man thank you so much for this vid 🙏.... Easy sub right away, GBU man cheers

[@warpacademy]

Cheers man. Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for the sub! Stay in touch.

[@josepuente8852]

I wish PMC IB1S didn’t get discontinued recently, own a pair myself. You would love them over the Nuemann’s. Happy to hear you found something that works for you.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the comment. Have you heard the KH420s yourself? I definitely plan on continuing to review and evaluate monitors. So it’ll be an ongoing thing even though I’ve committed to the Neumanns for now.

[@spikeafrican8797]

Yes definitely... I mixed on IB1S for years. For me, they were the one monitor to rule them all. Perfect translation in all genres and on all systems.

[@warpacademy]

Nice one. I've heard good things about the PMCs in general.

[@MadelnMachines]

So you wouldn’t recommend Focals or Adams for producing / mixing / mastering house, tech house and techno? Maybe I should look at the Neumann too but they do have a reputation for being boring / uninspiring. What SPL is comfortable on them?

[@warpacademy]

I would say that choice of monitoring is highly personal and it depends to a great extent on your room. I have never liked the tuning of Focals. And they are so harshly bright that I would say objectively that you would need fairly extreme EQ on them to make them livable in a studio. Some people like them though. Adams I feel are unrealistic with their tweeter design using accelerated ribbon tech. When I listen to them they sound neat and space age but none of my audience will be listening on them so why would I monitor my mixes on a system that doesn’t accurately represent things and really actually hyped and flatters the top end. For mixing you want boring and uninspiring. That is the purpose of a reference monitor. They make you work for it. If you want exciting get a hi fi system but don’t try and mix on it. You’ll give up too early and your mix will sound rubbish most likely. Won’t translate. Just so you know, people do say the Neumanns are boring but without fail when I bring people into my control room and they hear the sound, they love it. So I think saying they’re highly accurate and honest while being impressive in terms of sound. The SPL you monitor at is also a personal choice and you have to consider equal loudness contours and psycho acoustic effects. I typically monitor in the range of 75-80 db SPL-C in my room. But the Neumanns can go much much louder. I need ear plugs in when they are turned up. Just like being at a club.

[@MadelnMachines]

@@warpacademy Thanks for the detailed reply. I mix and produce at the same time so I best choose the monitor primarily for mixing. The thing is, club systems are incredibly hyped so how bad can it be to mix club music on monitors that are a bit hyped or relatively flat but still great / inspiring to listen to? No matter which monitor you choose the tracks are going to be way more hyped on club systems.

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. I suppose it really depends what you mean by "hyped". Club and PA systems sound very different, but I wouldn't say they sound "hyped" or that they sound like each other at all from venue to venue. A PA sounds way different if you take the same PA to a different room, or the same room with people vs a bare room. Each PA will be EQed by the FOH engineer, as well as have effects like compression or limiting perhaps. So it's not realistic to say that PAs are all hyped. They are just louder, and in very different acoustical environments, each of which could make them sound better or worse. You would want to choose a studio monitor based on its ability to be transparent and help your mixes translate as accurately as possible to many other environments and playback systems. So you want an accurate, honest, unflattering speaker (and room).

[@MadelnMachines]

@@warpacademy The places I go always use Funktion Ones with a wall of subs in smaller venues of a few 1000 capacity. They blow you away! (and break your ears)

[@MadelnMachines]

@@warpacademyI wonder why the 310 are sealed but the 420 are ported- should make them quite different shouldn’t it? It’s very unusable for one speaker in the range to have a different design.

[@steme2007]

Good Review. Well done! Just one question: why did you exclude the Dynaudio Core 59? They are quite similar too?

[@warpacademy]

I did consider them, but screened them out early after listening to them.

[@warpacademy]

In general I've been a fan of Dynaudios. Up until this time I've been using Dynaudio BM12mkIII and loved them. But the Core59 was not to my liking.

[@gorshenbag]

Great video! Would have liked to see the room you were listening in for reference.

[@warpacademy]

It was a large rectangular family room. Larger than most home-based studios. Certainly large enough to get the correct listening distance from the midfields. 8' ceilings. 14' wide. 20' long. Monitors placed directly against the small wall, firing down the long end of the room. Perfect symmetry in the room. Materials on both side walls had the same acoustic properties.

[@joshuaestock]

Very interesting video. I totally agree...a soffit solution is definitely the best performing option. I'm curious, what was your methodology for comparing the two monitors? How large was the space you tested them in? Did you compare them horizontally and/or vertically? I've compared these two option and came away with a different impression. If you have any measurements you could share that'd be appreciated. Keep up the great work!

[@warpacademy]

Hey Josh. Thanks for the comment. Are you running a flush mount setup in your studio? My studio is under construction as it's a complex, multi-month build. So I tested these in a large, residential listening room with sufficient room volume and separation to achieve manufacturer recommended separation and monitoring distance. They were both oriented vertically, as that's how they'll be oriented in my application. They were placed on weighted stands with decoupling in identical positions in the room. Because the listening room was not fully treated, like my studio will be, there are acoustics such as room modes at play for sure. This is why I tested the monitors in identical positions and at identical SPL. When I get the Neumanns in my room, flush mounted, I will be posting complete acoustic tests from REW. Happy to share those then. I didn't run acoustic testing on the Focals. I did side by side listening comparisons. Keep in mind that many of my comments come down to the quality and character of the sound, such as the low end, rather than the sheer amplitude. Acoustic tests will not show you this as I'm sure you know. The level between two monitors in a frequency range can be similar, but they can sound quite different in terms of transient response, accuracy, detail etc. Cheers!

[@wilkinsonmd1959]

Great analysis. One observation. You had the Focals in landscape mode in the display without rotating the mid strange driver- tweeter. I wonder if they were tested in this configuration. I do have the focal trio 11Be. I find they are better at a listening position of 7-9 feet. I am also not doing EDM heavy bass stuff. So all of the comments make sense. By the way I really love the Focal 11’s

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the comment! Glad you like the Focals. Regarding landscape setup that was just for a video shot. I tested both monitors vertically as they were loaners and I did not want to mess with rotating the mid hi assemblies. Cheers!

[@GuidoGaule]

Fantastic video, great job! What about the smaller versions: Neumann kh 310 vs Focal trio 6 be? Would you still go for the Neumann for the same reason? Many thanks for your advice

[@warpacademy]

Hey Guido. Thanks for the comment. I would make the same observations about the Focal Trio 6 Be as with the larger ones. But in terms of the KH 310, I have not yet listened to them. I can comment after I check them out. Cheers!

[@GuidoGaule]

@@warpacademy Thank you very much, I look forward to your comment or video on the kh 310. Have a great day

[@warpacademy]

Cheers Guido. Stay tuned. I'll see if I can get my hands on some.

[@kevinkearney3836]

I’ve tried both and I thought certain reference mixes just sounded weird on the Neumann’s. Good bass though. But something in the upper mids is voiced kind of strange IMO.

[@GG-dz1nf]

@@kevinkearney3836 Thanks for your feedback!

[@petergregory7199]

Sound choice! What set up did you test/compare with, wall mounted or open? My experience of Neumanns are if they are well away from the rear and side walls then the bass is exemplary - tight and detailed. I love their neutrality. The only monitors that outdo them are ATC’s. But they are dear.

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. I tested them both free standing, but very close to the front wall so I could get the SBIR close to minimum phase and test the LF shelving to compensate for front wall loading. It’s totally impractical to test 2 monitors in flush mount as you must cut your front wall to match the speaker baffle footprint. Once I committed to the Neumanns they were indeed mounted hard flush which just made them that much better. I agree with you about ATCs! Those would be my only upgrade from here.

[@warpacademy]

Here’s the room with the KH420s flush mounted. New 2023 Music Studio REVEAL & TOUR kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpeykJWqecqLoMU

[@djrobtech]

I absolutely love the KH310s! If I upgrade my studio room to a larger mastering room I’d definitely go for the KH420s! 😍

[@warpacademy]

Good choice!

[@鈴木雅彦-j7z]

Hello from Japan. I am Masa. Your attention to flush mount is great. I would love to see a detailed description of the installation for reference. I have compared the KH 420 to Genelec's S360, and the highs on the S360 sounded just a bit more loud. The KH 420 was quieter in comparison, but I could hear the nuances of the instruments more clearly. I think your choice is good. Have you tried the Neumann subwoofer? I was using a Genelec 7070 but had doubts about the rise and replaced it with a KH 810. the Neumann subwoofer is excellent. The latest KH 750 DSP is a small, sealed subwoofer that sounds great. If you get a chance, consider flush mounting the subwoofer. I look forward to your future reports.

[@warpacademy]

Hey Masa. Thanks for the comment. Flush mount is the way to go! Glad you like the Neumann sub. I don't plan on using a sub in my room because there's no need. The KH420s are very capable full range monitors in their own right. Some people use them with subs who have the KH420s on stands and I think that has benefit in terms of low end. However, not with a flush mount. Flush mounting dramatically increases the speaker efficiency and low frequency output to the point where adding a sub is unnecessary. A sub would just end up adding too much LF in the room, which already has a 30 Hz room mode.

[@鈴木雅彦-j7z]

@@warpacademy Thanks for your thoughtful reply. It is true that with the KH 420, I don't need a subwoofer. I wanted to consider the possibility of flush mounting as a new suggestion for subwoofer installation. I look forward to your future videos, and I hope you can help me out.

[@warpacademy]

Cheers Masa. What part of Japan are you in? I've been wanting to visit Japan in the next year or two and I'll likely be moving there for a few months. Learning some Japanese now. It's been fun!

[@鈴木雅彦-j7z]

@@warpacademy I live in Yokohama, next to Tokyo. I welcome your project to come to Japan. I'm looking forward to it.I will study English too.

[@makolly7770]

Could you tell me what is the spl level that you use to monitor in your studio for the most flat response on tge fletcher corve ? Thank you very much for all this content

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. Of course. I usually monitor at 76-78 dB SPL-C weighted. And I use the updated Equal Loudness Contours not Fletcher Munson. I’m glad you’ve been enjoying the videos. Cheers!

[@mabuse786]

I enjoyed your very well-educated and informed judgement. Thank you from a fellow sound engineer. I also know the KH420, but not Focal, and it was fascinating for me to listen to your take on them. 👍👍👍

[@warpacademy]

I'm glad you found this one useful. Nice to hear from you on the channel. Stay in touch and good luck on your productions. Cheers!

[@GuillaumeB7]

How bright would you say that the Focal are compared to the Adam?

[@warpacademy]

I didn't have them in the same room at the same time so I can't comment accurately on that. Going from memory, which may not be that accurate, I'd say the Focals sounded brighter to me. Hearing the Focals, I immediately wanted to shelve down the HF. I don't recall feeling like that with the Adams. With the Adams it was more of a "these XART tweeters sound too hyped and crazy and none of my listeners will be using them" thing. I felt like they sounded to space age in a way that would make me work less for the top end of my mix.

[@Croyeeeeer12]

Did you consider Genelec ? A lot of people using them, what’s your opinion on them ?

[@warpacademy]

I most certainly did. Several studios ago I was using a Genelec 8040 set of tops with the Genelec 7060 BPM sub. I liked them at the time enough to buy them, however over time I found them seriously underpowered. Even with the sub underneath handling most of the LF, the tops would clip easily during sound design and mixing. They didn't have the SPL that I needed. So I sold them. When I was looking at this room design we considered the Genelec 8351s, which I would be in (or close to) the same class as the Neumanns and Focals. However, I quickly excluded them due to their design. Their odd egg shaped MDE enclosures don't lend themselves to flush mounting. They sell flush mount kits for them, but they look ugly. I didn't want that in my front wall, looking at it all day. Their SPL output and LF frequency response leaves a bit to be desired too, compared to the KH420s. The KH420s are perfectly rectangular, they produce superior output, they have superior low end extension, and they're front ported. I'm sure the Genelecs are a great sounding speaker, but I will never go back to using free-standing monitors on stands; not after mixing on hard-flush mounted speakers.

[@carineeluvssyouu]

Wow what a great review on these two monitors. Do you have any experience with the atc scm25's? If so what are your thought's on those relative to these two monitors? i'm thinking about upgrading to those in a while. My current monitors do not have a midrange driver so i'm stuck compensating for that with auratone mix cubes.

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. Glad you enjoyed the review. ATC SCM25s are not in the same class as these. They are much smaller with nowhere near the LF extension. Also ATCs generally sound bass-light when not flush mounted in a wall getting acoustical loading. All the studio designers I know only ever flush mount them. Although, the ATC midrange is best in class. It would definitely outperform both the Neumann and Focal. The ATC SCM25 is not a full range main monitor so you'd need LFE underneath it. Auratone mix cubes are neat. Have you seen these though? They're the same idea, but newer and with some really nice DSP: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6vSoYCHd9GHkLs

[@EdSoloUK]

@@warpacademyI was wondering the same thing. Is it a similar story with the ATC 45s?

[@hannespi2886]

Thank you for this utmost honest review! As a bass-heavy producer I would have never known this. Thanks again

[@warpacademy]

Hi Hannes. Glad you found this useful. Best of luck with your music. If you want to get some feedback on your tunes join up with our Warp Discord server (link in the video description). Cheers!

[@ABS_AD77]

Focals have to be distanced from the listening position ins such a way that you wouldn't listen to individual speaker rather. Onee placed at the right distance, iwe would listen to the summed up sound from the 3-way. I like your comparison test, which is amazing and I totally agree with your review. Thanks for a nice video.

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. Glad you liked the video. Yes, each monitor has a recommended listening distance and the distance is larger for 3-way midfields like these. Usually it's between 5-9 feet. I respected that when testing these to allow for proper driver integration time. Cheers!

[@michaelrobinson9643]

Did you spend any time on ASR or similar sites to get a total technical assessment?

[@warpacademy]

No I didn't. I was easily able to narrow my list of choices to only several sets of speakers, given my flush mount setup. The manufacturers provided a sufficient amount of technical specs to know my choices would be close enough to what I need. And then I just wanted to have first hand experience listening to them. Tech specs only get you so far and I try not to get too lost in the weeds with them. Thanks for watching. Cheers!

[@drydessert4198]

Have you listened to Kii Three or/and Dutch & Dutch 8c? Both are technically related, I think, definitely not made for flush mounting, but in general very interesting speakers. They cost 2x of a pair of Genelec 8361. Guzauski-Swist Audio Systems have a great reputation, not very affordable. Quested and PMC have several reputable models in the line up that are in a more attainable price range and interesting for club music.

[@zuu1701]

Hey :) I did a shootout between Dutch and Dutch and the Neuman KH420's. For me, the Neumanns blew the D&D out of the water. The D&D are extremely 'soft' sounding in the top end... I personally dislike bright monitors too but this was waaay too soft sounding. I just couldn't hear the definition and clarity which I could on the Neumans. For me, the Neumans are exactly how they are described in this review: Balanced, flat, non-flatering, full range extention etc...

[@_innerscape_]

@@zuu1701 I did a training in a studio with D&D and at the time thought the same: these sound way too dull, way too "british hi-fi", but I never said it 'cause I was there to learn and didn't want to upset anyone or rock the boat... The things you have to do to survivie XD I'm happy with my KH310 and can't understand all those that don't like them, but I also don't understand all those that like Beyerdynamics headphones with that massive high freq boost. So, am I deaf? Are others deaf? Sometimes I have doubts...

[@zuu1701]

@@_innerscape_ wow that’s really interesting. What you experienced with D&D is EXACTLY what I thought when I was doing the shoot out. Great choice going for the KH310’s. I’d recommend those all day long. I get what you’re saying though, there is a lot of subjectivity when it comes to gear. It’s just sooo many people I highly respect mix on Neumanns. I’m also not a music snob, if Neumann brought out something I thought sucked, I would be the first to say!

[@_innerscape_]

@@zuu1701 Yep, it's comforting and reassuring when you meet someone whose opinion you agree, you think "ok, I'm not crazy, I'm not deaf, I'm not hallucinating things or being a funboy...". The D&D also changed quite a bit depending on volume: at 75dB SPL at circa 2m in a well treated control room they were very very dull, at 83dB SPL they opened up but still dull, good for long relaxed hi-fi listening (they were indeed born as home hi-fi speakers but audiphiles don't like DSPs and stuff in their chain... only vintage triodes and external amps to play with) but still barely acceptable, not revealing enough for me to mix on. I like that the KH310 sound almost the same at any volume and I truly like the closed box design: once experienced I can't stand the delay in the bass reflex port. Thanks for confirming I'm not deaf! Today I'll trust my ears a bit more XD Lesson to learn: for sure there's a lot a variability in what is considered "good sound", and in fact we have records sounding all aver the place from the '50 to the '90... from overly dark and muddy to overly bright and splashy, lately we're experiencing more and more standardization in volumes and cumulative spectral curves but that's also a bit boring.

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. I've heard VERY good things about the Dutch & Dutch. I reached out to them to see if I can get a test pair. Seems to me about 30% of my engineer friends are using them. I haven't heard the Kii Three either, but also a lot of MEs are using them and seem to love them.

[@godface81]

Thanks for the review, I have have th kh310 neumanns and I am really thinking of the getting the sub kh750 for the dsp especially. Are you using any room correction software with the neumanns ? I actually just read some of your comments on dsp below, using it only 500hz and below if you use it all and how adding boost eq doesnt do much ect. Should i keep my jbl sub with kh310s and keep using sonarworks or buy the neumann kh750 enable to use neumanns correction. Im in non professional but treated space. Any guidance from a pro like yourself would be great. cheers

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the comment. I am not using any corrective EQ in my room. My room is +/-3 dB on its own.

[@kingtubbyleeperry]

If a speaker like the Neumann has no depth in the 3d sound image, how can you use or manage this aspect in the mix. This is definitely a big flaw in these speakers.

[@warpacademy]

I think you've misunderstood my comments. The sense of depth comes from the mix; the music. A speaker can over or under-represent that sense of depth. If a speaker over-represents or hypes the sense of depth beyond what is actually there in the mix - which was my comment on the Focal - that's not useful to me as an engineer who wants true, accurate sound. I don't want a reference monitor to embellish the music as I'm working on it. The Neumanns represent the real amount of depth in a mix very well; and in a way that isn't overly flattering or hyping up the mix. Meaning that you hear accurately. There is no flaw in this regard with the KH420s. Quite the opposite.

[@Strepite]

@@warpacademy Absolutely, if you can hear depth too much in your monitors, you are most likely to end up with a mix that's gonna lack depth overall, so the reverbs are just not gonna be there as in your studio.

[@lk0707]

Thx for honest opinion

[@warpacademy]

Cheers mate. Happy to help.

[@harrisarp3841]

Thank you so much amazing review!!!May i ask because i mostly use my studio monitors for music listening (many years now) ,in your pro opinion which studio monitors (under 3000$ a pair) are more enjoyable to listen to?Certainly with very good quality sound material!!!Greetings from Greece!!!!🎵🎶🎙

[@warpacademy]

Glad you found the video helpful. For monitors under $3,000 for a pair, I'd try out the Neumann KH 120, Dynaudio LYD 48, HEDD Type 07, Adam A77H. Especially give priority to the 3-way models like the Dynaudio, if you like the sound. Let me know what you think. Cheers!

[@harrisarp3841]

@@warpacademy thank you so much for your help i really appreciate this!! I think Dyn's will be my first choice and then Neumann's.As you said 3 way is an advantage in sound quality. Keep up the good work!!!🎶🎤🎧

[@warpacademy]

Hey mate. Glad this was helpful. Just because a speaker is a 3-way doesn't mean it's automatically going to have better sound quality. It's just that having dedicated drivers for low, mid and high tends to optimize the performance for that frequency range and also allow for a wider sweet spot when mixing compared to a 2 way design. Best to listen to them all if you can and judge them based on your own direct experience rather than making your mind up in advance. Cheers!

[@teashea1]

For my work I prefer nearfield monitors. I do not produce music with heavy bass extension. I use all Neuman monitors at my workstations - KH 150's, KH120 II's and KH 750. It see ms that you have done an excellnt job of determining what monitors to use for your work. The video was very well produced. Your presentation is quite articulate.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for your comment. Yeah I hear you on nearfields. Not everyone needs what I'm looking for. Sounds like you're mixing in surround or Atmos? Are you running 5.1? What type of work are you doing? Cheers!

[@teashea1]

My studio is different than most. I have a numbeer of separate workstations instead of having everything consolidated.... I just do stereo music production. Take Care.

[@warpacademy]

Gotcha. Yeah, when you're moving around it makes sense to have a number of monitors at various workstations. BT's studio is like that. Have you seen it? kzbin.info/www/bejne/enatnX9mdtZjZ6s

[@teashea1]

thankyou@@warpacademy

[@warpacademy]

Cheers!

[@chrisllopis00]

Have you considered checking out Hedd audio speakers?

[@warpacademy]

Indeed I have. In fact, they reached out to me years ago to review their monitors and then stopped replying. We never lined up a review. I've reached out to them like five or six times, each time with no reply from the company. I've heard from other reviewers that they're rather non-responsive too. If a company isn't on top of their social media and contact inquiry, what does that say about their support if you ever need to reach them as a customer? Not good IMO! But, they're basically Adam clones with some modifications from what I understand. I don't like the design. Accelerated ribbon technology. I think it lies to you and adds a sweetness to the top end that just isn't there when you listen on different systems. It sounds great on the monitors, and then doesn't sound anything like that hyped top end when you play back on a consumer system. For an engineer, translation is key. I don't want monitors with space-age tech that none of my end listeners have. I would put them in my living room, not my studio.

[@chrisllopis00]

@@warpacademy you should try them. They are definitely not something like the adams. The ribbon on the hedds are not as hard as the Adams. I can mix on my Hedd typ 20 for hours without getting tired in my ears. About the company. One of my speaker had a problem and I contacted them. They responded very quickly and after two weeks I had them back from repair from Germany. I think they offer really fast support.

[@warpacademy]

Interesting to hear that about the ribbons. I've contacted HEDD several times and they never reply. So...whatever. Lots of companies to work with that reply to their messages. Too bad. I'd be interested to give them a whirl.

[@realbeksy.]

Love the Neumann!

[@warpacademy]

They're beasts for sure!

[@sphaera3809]

I think the tweeters on the Focal are showing distortion at higher levels that the Neumann are not. Also, looking at the speaker front, it is obvious the Neumann has much care in designing proper wave guides as opposed to simply slapping drivers on a MDF box.

[@warpacademy]

I don't think the tweeters are distorting on the Focals. These are very high powered monitors with a dedicated amp for each tweeter. It's more likely just the tuning. Neumann definitely has a nicely designed HF waveguide. Despite the look of the Focal tweeter mounting, it also does perform adequately in terms of directivity and sweet spot. I just don't like the character of their high end. Thanks for watching and commenting. Cheers!

[@Frank290578]

I have the event opal . also the tweeter is to much I think.? so Im maybe going to modificate the crosover so the tweeter is not so loud.. I realy love the detail of the event opal. I also have genelec 8030a but sounds dull compare to the event opal. so I going to sell the genelec

[@warpacademy]

I always heard good things about the Opals. I’ve never heard them myself. Glad you like them. Do they not have an HF shelf you can attenuate? Just EQ them. No need to modify components.

[@Frank290578]

thank you for your response. I know there is a high cut but you can't go more than -1.5 db so you don't hear much difference. Would it help if I treated my room better acoustically? or do I just have to get used to the sound of the treble?/ highs

[@warpacademy]

Ah I see. You could digitally EQ them no? Just use something on your computer like Sonarworks.

[@Frank290578]

I work hybrid so with a soundtracs Jade mixing console . and rack gear . soundmodules . korg kronos synt avalon vt737sp and ad2022 . so digital EQ won,t work, maybe put an hardware EQ between the console and monitors. first I try curtains on the side wals :-) for now

[@warpacademy]

Ah I see. Yeah that’s a factor for sure. I’m all ITB so I just use Sonarworks.

[@thilipdhev]

Very well reviewed 😊

[@warpacademy]

Glad you liked it

[@pulDag]

Hi, do you have measurements of both? thank you

[@warpacademy]

Hey Lukas. The manufacturers have measurements of both speakers in anechoic conditions. What you'll see if simply a frequency vs amplitude graph (heavily smoothed). This tells you the sound pressure at various frequencies, obviously, but that's extremely limited when evaluating speakers. It tells you nothing about the character of their sound. The level of detail. The feel of the stereo image. When I have the Neumanns flush-mounted in the front wall of my new studio, I will certainly be posting measurements because the flush-mounting process dramatically changes their output (for the better).

[@pulDag]

@@warpacademy Hi, you are right, but it would tell something when compare them between each other in your temporary conditions. Something more relatable to "more bass", "pronounced mids" in my opinion. Or maybe not. And thats why I would like to see it. Be well.

[@warpacademy]

Hey Lukas. I was waiting for my new studio to be mostly complete before considering acoustic tests with them. We're nearly there. Right now the ceiling, back wall, and side walls have treatment in place, so I can effectively A/B test the two sets of monitors. I had to give the Focals back, of course, but I will see if I can rent a pair so I can test them in a room with very nicely controlled acoustics.

[@pulDag]

@@warpacademy understand, it would be nice but not necessary. Enjoy your Neumann's and have a good day.

[@aljoschawolff4069]

I'm thinking about buying the KH420, but there is one problem and i would love to some input: It is about the calibration of the KH420... In newer Speakers there is a dsp built in, not in this one. Neumann put out a subwoofer (KH750) which has DSP, which doesn't make too much sense for me, because the TWO 10'' Woofers of the KH420 which are precisly matched to rest of the speaker are cutted down to 80 Hz and replaced by one 10'' Woofer, just to get DSP. I don' t need any bigger subwoofer with these anyway... There would be sonarworks, but i think the latency on that system is about 50ms which is not practical for recording. The zero-latency in sonarworks practicaly bypasses sonarworks, but then your ear never gets used to the right sound, cause it changes everytime you switch sonarworks on and of. So then i am left with an EQ on the back of the speaker of the KH420 with only one ajustable EQ. I could also use the 3 band of my rme-soundinterface, but then i only have 4 EQs to equal out all my frequency response. Hmmm... Is there a better solution to calibrate the 420's? (Don't tell me about getting the room right with treatment. I'm doing this, but this is a homestudio Environment so i can't get rid of the low end problems completly...)

[@warpacademy]

Good questions. I highly recommend the KH420s. They’re amazing monitors. I would never put a sub under them unless it was full stereo subs flush mounted as well. A single sub will force your entire low end into mono and impair your ability to mix in stereo. Stereo subs or nothing IMO. The DSP is nice for aligning the sub and you can get good results with the Neumann MA1 system for calibration. Regarding Sonarworks, I would never record with it on. You don’t need fussy calibration when tracking. Just put it on when mixing. Latency doesn’t matter then. Regarding room EQ, don’t expect room EQ of any type to fix your room response. As you clearly understand, that’s achieved with room treatment - something which most people completely underdo or botch. But once you’ve optimized the room then you can use EQ to help add a final 10% nudge in the right direction. My comments with room EQ are to limit it to only 500 hz and below. And ONLY subtractive adjustment. Not additive. Because you cannot correct for SBIR / boundary nulling / destructive interference with EQ alone. You also cannot correct desk reflection comb filtering. I still think Sonarworks or MA1 are a good solution if you implement them in the way I mention. Cheers!

[@aljoschawolff4069]

Thank you very much for your answer! I bought the kh420 and now i'm treating my room even more. I will follow your advice to use the dsp only for mixing, but thats a big disadvantage, because i program rhe synth and kicks myself and my ears are choosing the sounds already when i produce to fit in the vibe and sound of all the other instruments, but maybe that difference won't be huge and not an issue. I can agree to all your points in the video: I conpared the kh420 to the trios, adams and other monitors and they were really precise and honest. When i switched to the other monitors to me it felt like they were colouring the sound whiöe the kh420 were neutral and honest. But not in a boring way! Good mixes are so much fun in them!!! Also: It feels like the decaytime on all the sounds is shorter than on other speakers. Sometimes even showing some "gaps" in the mix. All the sounds are really seperate and clear timewise. I think thats what is called transient-responce, right? One other thing: The low-extend is crazy while not showing of. I listened to a german raptrack called "Intro" by Trettmann, that low sub in the chorus was pretty much not audible on many speakers while the kh420 were punshing out those deep notes with good pressure and precison. I totally love them and highly recommend!!!

[@warpacademy]

Right on. That sounds like a great experience and comparison. Thanks for chiming in on that. All the best with your new KH420s!

[@Gw49172]

Kii 3 and bxt might be an option to demo. Very helpful guys

[@warpacademy]

No doubt. I'd love to try those.

[@EricRabb]

This may be a dumb question but what about the Genelec 1037’s not sure about the port configuration though or their response? I want to invest in a decent 10” 3 way type monitoring solution. I was looking at the 1037b’s. I’m a trap type producer. Great vid by the way also. I currently have some 10” 3 way gen 4 KRK’s. I know its better out there than these noisy sob’s 😂😂😂

[@warpacademy]

Those would appear to work. They seem to be nice and rectangular and front ported. Cheers!

[@RoelCyborg]

Would the Adam Audio A8H not have been a better monitor for your upgrade ? They have the woofer ports on the front side .

[@warpacademy]

No, definitely not. I'll go through the reasons. Note that the Focals, Neumanns and Adams are all front ported, so there's no differentiating factor there. 1. Bass performance. The Adam is an 8" bass driver, while the KH420 is a 10" bass driver. The resulting frequency response extends much lower on the Neumann: 26 Hz vs 34 Hz on the Adam. That is a night and day difference. Both +/-3 dB. The Neumann is also +/- 1.2 dB from 100 - 10,000 Hz, which is an extremely tight spec. Adam publishes no numbers on this, meaning they have nothing to boast there. The Neumann is a flatter speaker with superior bass extension. 2. Tweeter design: I have listened to the Adams accelerated ribbon tweeters extensively and find them unnatural sounding and hyped. They sound interesting and exciting, which is NOT what I want in a reference monitor. I want true accurate sound. I would love the Adams to listen to in my living room, but not as a monitor in my studio. 3. Adam in the past has made questionable design choices with their ports, leading to audible port noise. This was back on their gen 1 A7X which I've reviewed on this channel. It was a bad port design. I see they've gone with a single, small-ish port on this monitor. The Focals and Neumanns both have much larger ports (the KH420 have 2 ports). 4. Amplification: The output of the bass driver amp alone in the Neumann nearly exceeds the total amp output of the Adam. Really, given the price point, the A8H is not a fair comparison. It's not in the same class. It certainly doesn't have the bass extension to make me consider using it without stereo bass management in the system, and that adds a ton to the cost and complexity of the setup and monitor calibration. The KH420s do not need bass management (subs) to provide the LF extension that I need as an engineer. I more fair comparison would be the Neumann KH310 to the Adam A8H.

[@RoelCyborg]

@@warpacademy Thx Drew , for your answer . It gives me a better insight and technical knowledge . I noticed in your video you told you needed that deep and low bass,, I was wondering how the Adam A8H would stack up to big 3 way monitors of choice . I am about to go buy those Adam Audio A8H myself ,my budget is maximum 3000 euro , and what you said sound perfect for me positive anyway . ,,, The Adam Audio A7v are to small ,missing bass , i need more bass so i would need a 10 sub with it which drives up the price to about 2000 euro ,, and then i don't know where i have space to put such an unhandy box,,,,so became interested in the bigger A8H and accept to spend more........ , For me it is okay that the high are somewhat hyped and direct --- and also a plus that you say that you would like them in your living room , --for me i would be mostly composing ,(hard rock , classical ,instrumental , but i like also dance an pop -trance) when i , making sounds native instruments also,, so it be nice if the sound of the monitor is cool and inspiring ,,, the plus i think from Adam Audio lately is that ya can switch between pure and the more hifi style ,,, pure would be you mixing setting and UNR be your fun listening and composing setting ,,,,, other then that i would do everything else like watch movies and play music trough them ,,,, its the last part of the home studio to take care of ,,,, i like what you told about this Adam , like you read , for me this ii think a good choice --Thx for this info drew

[@warpacademy]

Good stuff. I agree with you. In your budget and for your purposes I think you're making a good call. Just make sure you listen to them a lot in advance of buying them to make sure you're happy with the sound. Best of luck with your room!

[@megyalilaballad]

Before deciding to ditch the subwoofer, did you intentionally try any DSP-based correction/alignment software to justify your decision empirically? I hear Dirac and REW with Genelec make a considerable difference. From what I’ve read, if you get the chance to try out the Neumann 750 DSP and MA-1 alignment microphone and included software with your KH 420s, the processing should make a distinctly recognisable and desirable difference to your setup. Report back if you try this.

[@warpacademy]

Hey there. Thanks for watching and commenting. Yes, we absolutely did. I had an acoustician on site to tune the system, and we were using REW. Speaker time alignment is key - you make a good point there. The Genelec sub just didn't have the precision and detail I was wanting in the low end. Even at it's best it was muddy with bad transient performance. Not what I was hoping for. The Neumann subs look promising, but in the new room I'm certainly not finding the need for sub. The flush mount setup with the KH420s is allowing them to push out a lot of LF. The effect of baffle step and the LF increase it creates is quite prominent. I've heard some folks talk about how they find the KH420s perform very well with subs, such as this video from Neumann: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmKsmpWrj6t1sM0, however, those implementations are freestanding in the room - not flush mounted - and aren't getting the LF efficiency boost from baffle step. The effect of flush mounting the monitors in a rigid and massive front wall is not to be underestimated. It creates a huge difference in the performance of the speaker. Maybe in the future I'd get subs again, but probably not until I get ATCs and Northward Acoustics to build me a room ;)

[@megyalilaballad]

Thank you for the sincere response. I appreciate the time you’ve taken to articulate your experience and thoughts. That’s interesting. I am personally looking to invest in monitors with a sub, and my decision is currently locked onto Neumann; so, it’s reassuring to hear your experience has been great so far. I’ve never personally heard soffit mounted monitors, but to hear this is reassuring. Since flush-mounting is a permanent fix, it seems quite daunting to not be able to make minute adjustments later. How did you decide exactly where where you want the distance of your monitors to be? I wish you well with your future endeavours!

[@warpacademy]

You're most welcome. I think you're on the right track with the Neumann KH lineup. Most people I talk to about them, with various models, seem to be very pleased. I have quite a few colleagues using them in everything from DIY home studios to Dolby Atmos rooms. Note that soffit mounting is not the same as flush mounting. Soffits are different from a full front wall that acts as an extended baffle. This is from Arqen on the subject: arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/ "Flush mounting vs soffit mounting Flush mounting is sometimes misleadingly called “soffit mounting”. Soffit-mounted speakers are a special case: they are flush-mounted above a soffit (if you have a recessed ceiling, the underside of the ceiling overhang is what an architect would call the soffit). Soffit mounting is not ideal as it requires the monitors to be angled steeply down toward the listener. Also, the space below the soffit can become resonant." With the hard flush mount, you still have access to the backs of the speakers to make adjustments. But of course the listening distance and height is locked in. Mounting height is determined by where the acoustic axis / acoustic center of the speaker is - you align that with typical seated ear height. Listening distance is determined by getting within the manufacturer recommended range, and then adjusting to taste on stands before putting them in the wall. The KH420s are midfields and they won't be perceived as flat if you're too close to them. Neumann recommends a listening distance of approximately 6 - 9 feet. This extended distance is also much easier to achieve in a room with a flush mount because the monitors are literally in the wall, as far as possible from the mix position. With freestanding monitors, they'd need to be close to the listener, inside the room boundaries, and also inside of any acoustic treatment on the front wall. Not as ideal. We set up our distance to be about 7 feet in my room. Cheers!

[@mathieufleury6787]

Just out of curiosity why haven't you considered Dynaudio core 59?

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. Someone else asked that same question and I replied in the comments below. Short answer, I used to have Dynaudio BM12mkIIIs as my main tops. Liked them. Then Dynaudio changed their tuning and sound and I wasn't a fan of that new direction. The Core59s are roughly in the same class as the KH420 and Focal Trio 11. I think I would prefer them over the Focals but not the Neumanns. Also, the Neumanns have far superior bass response. Night and day. The KH420 is +/-3 dB to 26 Hz. The Core59 is -6 dB at 36 Hz. Not even in the same ballpark. You'd likely want stereo subs under those to use as mains IMO, although flush mounting would improve that.

[@javierquilis]

Thanks for sharing this comparison. Very helpful to get a better choice.

[@warpacademy]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Dmeekification]

Ran across your channel (and this video) on a hunt to replace the curse of the Adam A7X’s. Thank you for the extra validation about the Adam speakers… I mixed on small stereo speakers for years (and felt pretty confident in my ability to mix) and in 2010, I bought the A7X’s, I actually had them on pre-order for months and when I finally got them home, I was immediately disappointed… I was going to return them, but the sales people got me doubting myself… every time I mix on them I don’t know what moves to make because everything sounds bright and shrill… (so pretty much what you described I experienced). I feel like I’ve been in a labyrinth for 13 years, and I stopped enjoying mixing music. I couldn’t tell if it’s because studio monitors are for a different purpose than a stereo speaker, so maybe they just weren’t fun enough and I need to adapt better? I even bought a sub and still don’t enjoy it. Just the fact that you’re mindful enough to know something like a speaker sounding too good could be harmful, (when very few seem to point out this important perspective) was enough to gain a new subscriber… Wish me luck on getting rid of these and thanks!!!

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for subscribing. Yeah, I reviewed the original gen Adam A7X and A8X and I found that the A7X ports had terrible, noticeable port noise. A honking that would occur at certain kick drum frequencies. That immediately excluded them from my options back then. Always good to listen to the monitors for an extended time before committing to them. I was very thankful to have the Focals and the Neumanns for several months before making such a big decision. I wish you all the best with your music!

[@cheopz_official]

I mixed the last 4 years on the A7X plus the Adam Sub7. Without the Sub they had not enough bass for my taste. It took some time to know them, like with all speakers. I use Mogami Gold cables, so I had no noise on my A7X. That was a big difference to cheap cables. Now I mix on the Neumann KH310a, this is a lot easier against the Adams, much more detailed with a great stereofield. With the A7X it was difficult to get the mids right. I think this is the biggest problem with the A7X. I allways checked my mixes on the Mixcubes. With the Neumann I think about to sell the Mixcubes and buy a pair of Avantone CLA10 as reference.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I think you're hearing the benefits of working on a 3-way monitor compared to a 2-way. In the A7X, you have a single driver trying to produce all the bass and all the mids. It's not ideal and there are sacrifices made. In the KH310, you have discrete drivers for each frequency band. And the added plus is that your subs are now fully in stereo, vs your old system a single sub summing your LF to mono. It's never a good idea to produce or mix without the ability to hear stereo LF information, even if you're going to mono sum it later in your process. G Glad you're enjoying the new Neumanns. Cheers!

[@shriyashsahumusic]

great review, could you name some of the reference tracks?

[@warpacademy]

I listen to a pretty wide variety of things. For band type stuff, I use some Paul Simon (Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes) and Dave Matthews Band (Crash). For electronic I listen to a variety of stuff, but it includes Skrillex's Quest for Fire album, some Noisia, Jor Ford, Opiuo, Ott. For hip hop Childish Gambino is very well engineered.

[@shriyashsahumusic]

@@warpacademy okay, thank you so much🙏🏻

[@warpacademy]

My pleasure

[@jonathan9506]

Would you recommend those monitors also for home cinema 3D set ups such as Atmos/Auro, etc. (just the fronts of course)??

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. No I wouldn’t recommend these at all for that application. These are not hifi or home cinema speakers. They’re reference monitors.

[@jonathan9506]

@@warpacademy Ok, but my distributors here in Germany have recommended them. Is there a reason why I can not use i.e. the Neumann for the Fronts? What exactly makes the difference from a studio monitor to a HomeCinema Speaker? Thanks in advance 👍🏼

[@warpacademy]

Hey Jonathan. Studio reference monitors are designed to be totally honest and true sound. They are intended to reveal flaws. If a movie or song is badly mixed, then it should sound badly mixed through the monitors. If a song is well mixed, it should sound good. The goal with HiFi and cinema speakers is to make things sounds good in all cases. They aim at making a badly mixed movie or song sound good. It's a different design approach.

[@jonathan9506]

@@warpacademy Thank you ! Agree. I heared the Neumanns, they are exceptional good.

[@warpacademy]

Cheers!

[@urbanman1516]

So well presented! Great video.

[@warpacademy]

Thank you kindly!

[@RWKirby-gk7mk]

Great video Thanks ;O)

[@warpacademy]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@andynonimuss6298]

That's an older one. The Genelec 7060BPM was in production between 2007 and 2016. It was replaced by the 7360A model. I have the Genelec 7360A 10" and I think it's awesome!

[@warpacademy]

I'd be curious to hear the new model. Although, I hope you have 2 of them. For proper mixing you need stereo subs. Otherwise you will not hear the full range signal as it exists before your entire low end is summed to mono by the sub's routing and HPF to the tops. A single sub will give you low frequency extension, but it will mono your low end. Anything that's in antiphase in your mix low end you will not hear. That's yet another reason I prefer the full range 3 way stereo setup.

[@andynonimuss6298]

@@warpacademy I agree. All good points. I just have one sub for the moment, but may consider another one going forward. For me though... a sub like the 7360A vs the KH420 is that the Genelec Sub is also managing the bass response for 5.1 and 7.1 surround setups. I currently have a 5.1 setup with everything running from my Focusrite Clarett+ 8 Pre to the Genelec Sub and back out. I'm all about 5.1 surround and developing in that space. Neumann does have the KH 810 though. I wish I could test out an entire Neumann 5.1 surround setup against my Genelec setup and hear the difference without all of the expense... he he.

[@warpacademy]

Sounds like a nice setup. I have a colleague who just set up an immersive room for Atmos mixing and mastering. He went entirely with Neumann KH gear. 3 x KH750s in the room to meet the SPL cert requirements. He's running MA1 and Dante to all the speakers to phase align them. Getting very good results.

[@adrachin]

Thanks for sharing this. Question, would you mind sharing your reference track list? Thanks and have a nice time

[@warpacademy]

Hey Adrachin. Sure thing. I actually showed my reference track list in the video when I talked about it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/anu1cpVohLydhsk

[@mandytjart]

Nice office! ;) ;) All those plants!

[@warpacademy]

It's a wonderful place to work. Great scenery! Thanks for inspiring me to add plants to my workspace. I'll never go back. #full-jungle-mode #PLAMPING

[@bokajllensch661]

When I listen back to my mixes on 420s (or other Neumanns) I have the fealing that they are too forgiving and always make the mix sound too nice.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the insights. Yeah if that’s what you’re feeling then they’re not for you. You want a reference monitor that really makes you work for it, not flatters the mix. I feel like a lot of monitors hype up mixes and make them sound too good easily, then that work doesn’t translate. The Neumanns are impressive sounding for sure, especially in the low end. For me, I find them very accurate but that had everything to do with the room they’re in as well. The room accounts for just as much as the final sound as the speaker does. Cheers!

[@itsrob2321]

I have KH310 and Solo Be6 and your description is the same for me comparing my monitors. I mix country, folk and mostly acoustic so I find the Neumann nearly perfect and unflattering. The Focal, to me are probably not necessary, but give me a second opinion. I don’t mix loud so the KH310 are great in my situation.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for your insights and feedback. Cheers!

[@axoplanet6081]

I also own the 310s. Before them I mixed and produced on Adam A7X with Sub. Totally different to mix on, in a good way. If I start a production (electro house) on the 310, it sounds thin in the beginning. You allways here exactly what is missing and if you play a reference track, you know which way you have to go. The 310 is so brutally honest, that you think you get fooled. If a mix or a prod. isn‘t ready I hear it straight away. On the Adam I had to think much more about if something must be changed or not. And the stereofield of the 310 is awesome.

[@warpacademy]

Good insights there. Thanks for the comment!

[@axoplanet6081]

How are the 420s against the ATC Scm25 mk2…anybody?

[@warpacademy]

They are VERY different monitors. Not in the same class. But I can compare a bit from the design and specs. First of all, the ATCs are only 6.5" bass drivers and don't have anywhere near the LF extension of the Neumanns. 47 hz for the ATCs, 26 Hz for the Neumanns. You would want a sub with the ATCs for sure. The Neumanns are capable of much higher SPL and have much more amplifier power, as you'd expect from a larger midfield main monitor. The ATC midrange is really best in class though, so I would expect it to outperform the KH420s, but perhaps not by a ton.

[@axoplanet6081]

@@warpacademy Thank you for your answer 👍 Good to know. And the ATC against the KH310? I mix on the Neumann KH310 and think about to add the 750 DSP sub. First I thought to sell the 310s and buy the ATCs. But the ATC sub alone is around 10k€. So if a sub is better with the ATCs, I will stay with the 310s. Also I thought about some of the new Barefoots Footprint 03 as second speakers (next to my small Mixcubes). Unfortunately there is no shop near me, where I could hear the ATC or the Barefoots. I thought about Barefoots as second speaker, because they must be the „opposite“ of the 310s when it comes to a flat sound.

[@warpacademy]

I suppose it all depends on your goals. If the ATCs + sub is out of range (and it is for most people) then the KH750 with the 310s could be a really nice setup. Keep in mind that adding that amount of sub into your setup is going to necessitate a whole new world of necessary acoustic treatment. The KH750 will excite all of your room modes in a big way. So expect your lowest (typically your front-back axial) mode to get very loud. It may actually make mixing your low end harder than without a sub unless you have a very well designed room and extensive treatment including pressure-based low end treatments, or a large depth of porous absorption.

[@Stankman1]

I personally chose the Focals, purely because they have had some recent sales in Aus making them literally 45% cheaper than the Neumanns.

[@warpacademy]

They were actually on sale here where I live at the time I was evaluating them. I really, like REALLY, wanted to like the Focals enough that the savings would have made them worth it. Trust me, I did not want to buy the more expensive Neumanns. However, the tuning was just SO starkly not what I wanted that I couldn't make myself do it. Not when I listen to my monitors and make important decisions every day, for hours. For you, it may be worth it. For me, not so.

[@lsdave]

I don't understand why people seem so butthurt about your findings. Some people prefer the sound of soft dome over hard dome tweeters. His hearing could be more sensitive in the upper midrange than others. His testing was his personal interpretation, no measurements, etc. Psychoacoustics play a much bigger role than anything else here. The only PROPER way to compare speakers is in a double blind, and by measuring to confirm assertations made by the blind test. I have no doubt that some people will prefer the Focals over the Neumanns. It comes down to taste as well as what you have "trained" your ears on previously.

[@warpacademy]

This is a good insight. As in Floyde Toole's book Sound Reproduction, the only way to objectively test this is in blinded listening tests. Or by testing in anechoic conditions. Ideally both and neither of which are in scope for this KZbin channel. And you're absolutely right, some people prefer the Focals and others prefer the Neumanns - based on many aspects of evaluation.

[@TheGudlove]

I find that focal has a better transient response for me. My mixes are together and tight in the rhythm section and I feel it easier to get a vocal to sit in a mix. I understand what you mean though, probably not for everyone but for me Focal and Barefoots are the go-to for my hip hop and Trap mixes, I Tried 5inch Neumanns at a friends studio before and I felt like they were like a louder and more put together NS10 but that's not what I want from a monitor

[@warpacademy]

Yeah mate. It all comes down to personal preference in a big way. If you get good results on a monitor then it’s a good monitor for you! Thanks for tuning in!

[@PeterPavlovKayzenn]

Nice review! I was thinking to buy Focal Shape 65 but now as I hear that they are lacking low end, started thinking if this is good idea ... since I am producing Tech and Techno. What do you think about that model and does it have the same downside?

[@warpacademy]

Hey Peter. Glad you liked this one. I haven't heard the Focal Shape 65 so I can't comment. That said, I have noticed a common theme in Focal tuning in every one of their monitors that have heard. Too much high end, too bright. And not enough low end and low end detail. Hard to say if this is the way they tune all their monitors, but I would definitely listen to them yourself with that in mind. Cheers!

[@PeterPavlovKayzenn]

@@warpacademy Thank you!

[@Truth565]

@@PeterPavlovKayzenn Just for context, you need to be careful taking advice from a single person on what a single, let alone a whole family of monitors sound like. Every ear is different and a manufacturer with a good professional reputation is not going to put out a monitor that has a clearly unbalanced reproduction. You need to: 1 test the monitors yourself in your own environment. 2 if you’re going to consider other opinions, ensure to get a wider pool of reviews. 3 unless you hear the same thing being said by lots of people, take everything with a pinch of salt. The Focal’s in this test and the ones you are considering are all highly regarded and are in use in many respected and successful mix engineers studios, the same can be said for the Neumann monitors too. So this review can ONLY be a personal view and not any kind of matter of fact.

[@PeterPavlovKayzenn]

@@Truth565 Thanks Mike, I bought them after all and im impressed. They have really good clarity and decent low end. So definitely a win situation for me.

[@Truth565]

@@PeterPavlovKayzenn Glad to hear you followed your own instincts 👍🏾. I’ve also used the Shape 65’s and would agree with your findings. Best of luck.

[@GrumpyEyeAudio]

KH310 are amazing. I didn't like the KH420 when I compared them to my Trio 11be. The transient response in the bottom end was just not there. They were just too slow. The transients in the mid range were not coming through like they are on the Focals. The "3d" helps you with making EQ decisions, because you can hear literally everything that is happening in the midrange, since everything will be separated (like on the ATCs). So I got the Focals. But the KH310 is in the strong second place. But when you get to atc - it's a completely different experience. The midrange on those is AMAZING. So I got the 150s lol

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. Thanks for the comment and for sharing your experience. Yes, ATCs have the best midrange drivers in the business so I hear from everyone I talk to ;). I know a lot of engineers that seem to like the Focals too. Personal choices and very subjective. ATCs are very bass-light unless they're flush mounted too. They need baffle step to really perform optimally in the low end.

[@Strepite]

I think that at this point the ATC midrange has became somewhat of a myth, because everyone first reads that the midrange is magic, and then you're just too biased when you buy them. Don't get me wrong, they are absolutely amazing but for the price range the step up in quality is not x2 or more. Because if you go for 6.5" version you need 2x subs to compare the sonic range to something like KH420 and you easily go into €25,000 budget. The thing you mentioned with KH420 is maybe a problem in your room response

[@sifonalphonsus6417]

Thank you so much for this. Neumann KH 420 all the way!!!!!

[@warpacademy]

Our pleasure!

[@teashea1]

very interesting video

[@warpacademy]

Glad you liked it

[@pepesebastiao9654]

Nice vídeo

[@warpacademy]

Thanks.

[@Leysner77]

Yeah the focal beryllium tweeters are verry transparent.. i use them in my car with a helix dsp

[@warpacademy]

Oh yes, I often forget Focal makes car audio stuff too. You're liking your car audio setup then?

[@PeechaLaCosh]

Cool video! From my own experience, the Neumanns have a somewhat harsh high end and almost no depth to the sound. One of the best speakers I came across were the Amphions Two18s coupled with their own BaseTwo25s subs. Amazing system. ATC SCM45s are also great as well as Dutch&Dutch 8Cs.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for sharing!

[@rodericmege4549]

For a studio like yours, if you are looking forward subwoofers, you should consider having 2x 15" or better 3x 12" for easy fine tuning with "small" controlrooms. No need for rafined ones, only reliable ones likes the Brand "Subwoofer Pros". Cheers. Thanks for the video.

[@warpacademy]

Hey Roderic. I'm not actually interested in subwoofers for my current studio build. My control room is actually not what you'd call a small room, acoustically speaking. It'll be 10' ceilings, 16' width, and 20' length. That said, it is in a shell for acoustic isolation so we need to be very careful about how much LF is in the room. I expect there will already be more than adequate LF just from the 10" bass drivers in the Neumanns. Especially when you consider the baffle step effect of the front wall flush mount.

[@lk0707]

Did you considered PMC’s ?

[@warpacademy]

They were on my radar for sure. But I was unable to get a pair to test and was most certainly not willing to buy them without listening to them extensively.

[@casperbass68]

Appreciate this review! Both killer speakers...Do you think a break-in on the Focals would mellow them some?

[@warpacademy]

Glad you enjoyed this. I did burn in the Focals. My comments are all about the sound of them once I followed the recommended burn-in procedure. It did not mellow them out.

[@ZVUCHI]

Thank you for your video. It would be very kind of you to share the draft drawing file of the room that is presented in the video. We all understand how much work has been spent on such a miscalculation and planning in the program. But the room has a huge impact on the sound, you told me about the speakers and it's wonderful, but it will work for you and in your room. You will make a huge contribution to the community if you allow musicians to download the room project file, this is much more important than the speakers themselves and any stories about them. Many stumble at this stage when they want a good sound, but mounting speakers into a wall without experience is a big risk in the absence of good examples and experience. I think many people here will agree and will be very grateful to you if you share the outlines of your control room :)❤

[@warpacademy]

Hey mate. Glad you liked this video. Your timing with this comment is actually serendipitous because I just posted a video showing the basic outline of my room: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rYjYgoyiqtOGrJI. You can get a good feel for what we're doing from the drawings, and I'll be sharing more as our build progresses and I shoot update videos. That said, I will not be posting detailed project files for the room build as it's proprietary. You're correct in assuming that flush mounting into a hard front wall is a complex task that's not advised for amateurs. I work with a professional acoustician who specializes in control rooms for electronic musicians, and he's here personally handling the build. I would not attempt this on my own as it requires a lot of deep knowledge, specialized skills, and advanced carpentry. I'd be happy to answer some specific questions though, if you want to post them. Cheers!

[@warpacademy]

Additionally, I want to show people how to correctly carry out and analyze acoustic testing. So I'll be testing the room and discussing the measurements as we begin to install the interior modules. You may find that helpful. Cheers!

[@AtomNic]

As an owner of Focal Trio 11's, this review couldn't be further from the truth, these are like one the most Electronic Music monitors you can buy with their down to 30Hz frequency response. Definitely something is off with the room they were tested in and they definitely don't need to be adjusted with the eq controls in the back in any way. When I was setting them up in my new place, I had a bit of trouble but because I knew how they suppose to sound from my previous studio I kept on playing around with the placement until I got it right and the controls in the back don't have to be touched, that just shows that they are not placed correctly and those controls I find completely just throw them off balance. Luca Pretolesi literally uses them to master biggest EDM artists so can't be good only for Folk or Country. 😂 Also they are incredibly inspiring and unfatiguing to work on, which can't be said about many high end forensic studio monitors. Just thought I'd give my 5 cents if anyone is looking to buy! :D The Neumanns are obviously GREAT as well! ✌

[@warpacademy]

Hey mate. A couple things. First of all, the perception of any studio monitor is going to be heavily colored by subjective opinion and preferences. I was extremely clear on that throughout my video. You're obviously inclined to like brighter speakers and tuning than I do, and you're fully entitled to your opinion. But let's call it what it is; it's your opinion. Your opinion doesn't make my observations untruthful. There is no universal truth or one-size-fits-all approach in this type of preference-based product choice. I'm well aware that a lot of accomplished engineers use and like these, including Luca Pretolesi. In fact, I chatted with Luca quite a bit about the Trio 11 Bes and why he likes them, which is why I included them in my evaluation lineup. I also know equally prominent engineers, Grammy award winning engineers, who I've also consulted with (I won't name names here) who won't touch these speakers for the same reasons I mentioned. In regards to the room, in testing you'd ideally want to listen to the speakers in a completely neutral environment. That would be an anechoic chamber, or a test room with them flush mounted into the front wall. In practice, however, neither of those solutions are practical or common practice for reviewers. I had to decide on what set to commit to before building my studio around them. You can't just A/B speakers in a hard front wall due to the construction of the room around them and how that must be unique to the speaker dimensions and weight. So what I did do was test each monitor in an identical environment and compare them head to head with the same acoustic aberrations that the room provides. You can clearly hear the difference in tuning of the monitors when compared under identical acoustic conditions, even if those acoustic conditions are not ideal. To say that there "must be something wrong with my room" that's affecting my perception of the speakers is simply untrue, and it's a poor attempt to invalidate my opinion while asserting your opinion as correct. As an owner of the Focals, you are much less likely to be objective here, as you'll be more inclined towards cognitive bias to support your previous decision to purchase them. We all want to feel good about our choices in terms of things we buy, and those cognitive biases tend to be larger the more expensive the item. I have been able to be more objective because I had not yet committed to either pair of speakers. In fact, REALLY wanted to like the Focals more due to their lower price point. Furthermore, my acoustician who's building my room owns and loves his pair of Focal Twin 6 Bes and recommends them, but he does not like the sound of the Focal Trio series. He's built rooms around them and has flush mounted them in a very acoustically neutral environment, and has made the same observations about their tuning. So it's not just me saying this.

[@AtomNic]

@@warpacademy completely understand the bias, specially towards the more expensive items, but the problem I have is that the sound differences you’ve described (too mid forward and a big lack of bass) is completely opposite to what they actually sound like when set up properly. The whole thing is that different monitors can’t be tested in the exact same positioning as they all respond differently to the environment they are in and to make a proper comparison they should be setup to sound the best they possibly can and than do the proper comparisons. Too much high end could also be exaggerated/amplified by the lack of bass frequencies. If I was to wear purple glasses I’d see the skies change colour but wouldn’t mean it is purple. My point is these speakers are extremely flat when setup properly and wouldn’t sound that drastically different from the Neumanns. Don’t mean any hate btw, just arguing strictly technical points. Also the fact that you spoke to Luka and than concluded in the video they are good for Folk and Country creates a misinterpretation of facts and makes the review invalid for people that might be watching this to make a decision. In a proper comparison you should be talking about the “voodoo” of each speaker and why you like one more than the other, in this comparison sounds like you were talking about the technical issue (lack of bass) which makes me conclude that the Foclas were just not set up properly. ✌🏻

[@AtomNic]

@@warpacademy if I was to ever upgrade, like you said, it’d be the big ATCs, but they are damn too expensive and need a room built just around them 😂

[@warpacademy]

Hey mate. There are clear and established best practices, in terms of acoustics, for how to "set up" a reference speaker in a room. Then, once you've followed those, you can make adjustments to optimize them. On that, I'd say we agree. You have no idea how I've set up these speakers, yet you continue to infer that I have somehow configured the speakers or the positioning in the room incorrectly, and that's the reason why I'm evaluating them the way I am. This just further reveals your attempt to invalidate my observations by stating that I must be testing them wrong. In the video, I speak directly to the low frequency response, and the detail in the LF. You're asserting that the room and positioning is coloring each speaker *differently*, even when they are at identical positions in the room and under identical acoustic conditions. These speakers have very similar spec. They are nearly the same size, both have 10" bass drivers, front ported, triple amped, active etc. When tested at the same position in the room with the same height and decoupling etc, there is very little difference (nothing significant) in terms how the room acoustics will be affecting them. This is because the sound sources (drivers), low-end frequency response of the speaker, and SPL generated is all very similar. There are no design differences between the speakers that would cause them to respond wildly differently. It's not like one is cardioid and the other is conventional. They are, for all intents and purposes, very similar designs. So it follows that each speaker will be colored by the room in a nearly identical way, making accurate A/B evaluation between them possible. If you think there is something about the speakers that would cause them to perform differently at the exact same location in the same room, then cite what you are basing that opinion on and back it up with sources. From my understanding of acoustics, there is no basis for that assumption. I may be wrong, so if you're aware of tests and research that have revealed otherwise then share links to such research and I'd certainly be keen to see them.

[@20puskinas1992]

Take your pink glasses of and listen to them man. You havent compared both of them did you? Your thoughts whitout comparison is useless.

[@lk0707]

Did you ever listen to EVE’s Audio monitors ?

[@warpacademy]

No I haven't. They look like Adam clones. What's the deal with them?

[@lk0707]

@@warpacademy excellent vibe and transient response. Very musical sounding monitors. Pleasant to work with for whole day.

[@drydessert4198]

@@warpacademy Adam and Eve... Eve has been founded by ex-employees of Adam. The founder of Adam then moved on to found HEDD, that you probably know.

[@warpacademy]

Ah, yes, I knew that HEDD was founded by a former Adam engineer but I didn't know that about Eve. What I can say is that every ribbon tweeter I've ever heard, I didn't like for engineering. I liked them to listen to, but no one who's ever going to be listening to music I engineer will be listening on accelerated ribbons. They'll be listening on club systems, car audio, air pods etc. Therefore, I don't like working on ribbon tech. It's just too hyped sounding for me. I tried reaching out to HEDD to do a review, but they never reply. Perhaps I'll evaluate some Eves. Cheers!

[@lk0707]

@@warpacademy interesting point about ribbon tweeters, but what I can say is that here in Germany and UK, most Techno music guys produce on Adam's who only have ribbon tweeters. We actually dont care too mich about top end as low end is the king in clubs and festivals.

[@fantasyflare]

Title of video doesn't do justice to the broader usefulness of your tests, I'd recommend "Testing wall mount monitors for audio engineering" or maybe something that will allow more people to discover this because I think it's beyond interest of speaker monitors alone

[@warpacademy]

I'm glad you got a lot out of this video and thanks for the alternate title suggestion. If you liked this one, then I have a couple of recent, related videos I think you'll also enjoy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4fVeGWBlKpqp6s. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZPQdKuhmK2Se7c. Cheers!

[@davidstevens7809]

I have many genesis physics antique speakers..they are the ancestor of the focal..but the original 50 year old american version dont have the problem that the focal does..im smiling now..

[@warpacademy]

That must be neat to have access to those vintage speakers. And yes, I just can't get on with the Focal sound. Some people love it, but perhaps I'm more sensitive to the high end. I've really enjoyed Genelec, Dynaudio, and now Neumann tuning much more. Focal seems to be the odd one out from that pack. They sound totally different, whereas all of the Genelecs, Dynaudios and Neumanns sound much flatter to me.

[@davidstevens7809]

@@warpacademy i have the largest collection in the world..over 35 pair..plus 10 extra tweeters and woofers. They had life time warranty.and were flat +-2db over 50 years ago..I immediately liked your straightforward style..if your familiar with rockford fosgate car amps..I made them by hand back in the 80s..

[@warpacademy]

Wow. Sounds like quite the collection! Must be a sight to behold (and hear!). +/-2 dB is a tight spec, especially for over 50 years ago. My Neumann KH420s are +/- 1.5 dB and that's rare to see these days even. Cheers!

[@Nerdytimhieu]

me the same I feel neumann is better, even tho it is flat but when you crank up, and set the right room. It feel more you live in the same place with the artist

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the comment. Cheers!

[@warpacademy]

Someone recently posted this video, which recommends putting speakers into the front corners: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5Tcq4qfjJ6qp7M&ab_channel=PresentDayProduction. This is what I have to say about that. Grasping a basic understanding of acoustics, you know what that's going to do. It's going to dramatically boost the bass and excite all the room modes much more than is necessary. Bass accumulates where boundaries join. It accumulates where the side wall meets the front wall, and even more so (3 boundaries) in tetrahedral corners. He says "you want to get as much bass out of a speaker as possible." Really? Do you? Why? Especially seeing as LF is the most difficult to attenuate. Maybe this is good advice if your monitor speakers don't produce enough LF. I know some of the ATC models are a little anemic in the low end and benefit from support from subs. The Neumanns certainly are not. Neumann recommends shelving the LF down by 7.5 dB if the KH420s are placed in corners due to the increased bass level. Do you really want a room where the low band is 7.5 dB above everything else? You'd be mixing tracks that have no low end in them because you'd be hearing too much LF in the room. Placing your monitors into a hard front wall improves the low end as well due to baffle step. Instead of bass radiating backwards and then forwards out of phase, you now have bass only radiating forwards in perfect phase. If the bass response is now too high, it's easier to control this with a simple LF shelving filter in the monitor drive signal. And it doesn't produce any out of phase bass signal from boundaries behind the speaker, because there are no boundaries behind the speaker. The comment that you just use your ears while changing your listening position is also bad advice. You must do proper acoustic testing. Why? Because you have strong room modes in an untreated room. They'll ring out at very specific frequencies and not others. So if you listen to music only, then what happens when your reference song doesn't play a note that lines up with a resonant frequency? It'll sound normal to your ears. Then one day down the road, you'll be mixing a song that does hit that resonant frequency and it'll be a problem. When you do acoustic testing with sine sweeps, Room EQ Wizard will pick up every aspect of the frequency response and identify all issues to help you optimize speaker placement. Doing any type of studio optimization without corresponding acoustic measurements is like walking around a dark room and bumping into things. You may eventually get it right, but why not just turn the lights on? Another issue with simply "using your ears" is the inferior acoustic memory in humans. It's very short; 5-30 seconds for sounds (not voice or language). So how can you effectively ensure an "even sound" when you're just using your ears? One's memory of how things sounded at one position in the room is forgotten before you even set up the next monitor position. He does get this right: "Often speakers are best forced against the back wall as any bass reflecting off the back wall stands more chance at arriving at your listening position in phase." That is correct. You push your monitors up against the front wall, but even better - IN the front wall. You only put the monitors against (but in front of) a wall when you can't, or don't have the budget for a flush mount. There's a solid reason why studios with $1M or more budgets for their room put their monitors flush mounted. It's simply the best monitor placement and room design for control rooms. This is also heavily documented and supported by acousticians like Philip Newell and the Audio Engineering Society. Speaking of trapping, he says that to properly attenuate a moving air particle you need a trap that's 1/4 of a wavelength deep and air gapped from the wall. That's outdated and ultimately incorrect advice that's been disproven. Here's someone who's actually done the testing about flow resistivity and impact on low end absorption: www.jochenschulz.me/en/blog/rockwool-glasswool-hemp-best-absorber-material. He also gets it right about room correction EQ. Those comments are spot on. Final comment is that he doesn't seem to have posted any acoustic testing. He's just claiming that he's used his ears and that this room setup has a good response. I would love to actually see a waterfall from REW of that room.

[@Underview]

Putting the speakers near corners can work for some rooms.

[@warpacademy]

What that will do is maximally excite your room modes and compromise the sound of your expensive speakers. The only speaker position worse than in the corners on stands is in one of the tetrahedral corners (wall-wall-ceiling or wall-wall-floor). When we're running acoustic tests in rooms, we'll intentionally place a monitor on the floor, in the front corner to excite all the room modes to be able to clearly see them. There is no reason to place the monitors in corners. It also prevents you from putting acoustic treatment in the corners. The only reason I can think of to put monitors in room corners is if you're in such a small room that you need to put them there due to the dimension boundary. But in that situation, I'd rather mix in headphones because the room would be virtually unusable for engineering or critical listening.

[@remiobox]

why not having 2 subs. Designer Carl Tatz gives great explanation why

[@warpacademy]

Hey hey. Thanks for the comment. I'm always willing to be open minded and listen to the perspectives of others. Can you please share what he says specifically about this? Or link me to the article or video (with timecode) of where he discusses this? There is often debate between speaker manufacturers (who aim for ideal frequency response in an anechoic chamber) and acousticians, who have to consider the broader picture with room acoustics in play and all the associated physics. In general, I find acousticians and professional studio designers are much more pragmatic and knowledgeable than speaker manufacturers. So, what I'd say in response to this - given that I have not yet see what Carl Tatz has claimed - is look at all the more high end professional studios in the world. Rooms that are $500,000 to millions. Rooms by Northward Acoustics, Newell Acoustical Engineering, Lachot Design Group. You'll see a common thread. They all have full range stereo monitoring. And if that monitoring system includes subs, they have 2, in stereo. Why is this? Because you can't mix what you can't hear. If you're a mixer or mastering engineer, you must be able to head the sub in full stereo.

[@dougleydorite]

Focals have seemed overly hyped in both youtube influencers and sound

[@warpacademy]

I agree. I kept seeing big influencers talking them up. Obviously they got them for free. I’m not affiliated with either company and I paid full price for mine so this is completely unbiased.

[@dougleydorite]

@@warpacademy have you heard of Geithain? They are kinda like PSI in that they are naturally phase aligned, but they also have cardioid bass response. Wouldn’t be an option for you though because the speakers that are in a similar price range don’t put out lows like you need

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the tip. I haven't checked those out yet. Any particular model? I am definitely interested in testing cardioid bass speakers, such as the Kiis and Dutch & Dutch. Perhaps I'll add these to the lineup to test.

[@dougleydorite]

@@warpacademy many people would appreciate it! There’s just not much information about Geithian speakers. It would also be a good alternative to the other speakers you’re interested since it’s analog

[@MsCorbacho]

Almost all speakers from Geithain are amazing

[@ThomasL]

Ideally, with subs, it's better to take 2 smaller ones than a large one. In your budget range you could've thought about a pair of Used Active ATC SCM 25's; 40's or even 50's I think ! I own two pairs of passive speakers (HiFi, but they're closer to Studio flatness than you might think, because I record/mix and listen to music in the same room and didn't wanted two dedicated spaces and set-ups for that), a pair of Focal Electra 906's and yeah, they have that kind of utterly large 3D sound, a bit of emphasis on the highs (I think not as much as the ones you tried though), and a pair of passive ATC SCM40's (MkI's), and I know that Neumann's middom is based on ATC's one, that's been praised for decades. Anyways, great explicative video. Especially the SPL Levels compared to accuracy human hearing.

[@warpacademy]

Cheers Thomas! Funny that. I actually tried to buy a pair of used ATC SCM 25s as my first choice but the deal never happened. At full list price new they were way out of my budget. But in the future I definitely plan to upgrade to ATC mains.

[@Beatsnmotivation]

Maybe the reason they hurt your ears bc your ears don’t like high end. So the crispy is what ur ears don’t like. You have really good ears that you hear more then other humans too. And high end gets tiring quick and at points distorted as well.

[@warpacademy]

I think you're right there. I've done a lot to protect my hearing over the years, because I'm an audio engineer, and I do have pretty decent perception of high end. But I don't think I'm oversensitive. I mean, I'm 45, and anyone in the audio industry that age definitely has at least some high frequency hearing loss.

[@MIKEDIAMONDZ]

Bro that ge elec sub is the worse sub in history ... in every studio i was and heard that was sounding boomy not musical

[@warpacademy]

Agreed. It's just mud. Goes to show that careful comparison matters and just because a brand has a good name, they don't always make good products consistently.

[@ДжонСнежный]

Do you hear about Genelec SAM subwoofers? It's a game changer. They are integrated so good with Genelec SAM monitors. They can correct phase and sounds like one unit with monitors.

[@MIKEDIAMONDZ]

@@ДжонСнежный i love focal

[@jusejuse11]

I would be interested in subwoofer buying guide video, because I imagine it quiet hard to hear the differences between middle class and better subwoofers. Thank you for your content!

[@warpacademy]

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

[@Strepite]

Focal really seem like a new-age Adam. I always disliked Adams and their overhyped highs on the "so-called-ribbon" tweeters (which are not ribbon at all) even at their flagship models. With Neumanns if you mix sound super super bright it will be too bright everywhere else. I think they purposely backed down the highs a bit to avoid fatigue quickly. One needs to adapt to that fact but in the long run it's very beneficial. With ATC I think they are absolutely great BUT waaaaay too "culty" and overhyped as a brand, and you need 2 subs if you buy 6.5" versions which gets you into €25k price range overall. Neumann actually used their "magic" mid dome before they decided to switch so basically it's great but not THAT great as the fanboys want us to believe.

[@warpacademy]

Great points all round. I feel similarly about the Adams. The highs are very artificial sounding and hyped. I mean, I like it for recreational listening, but never for mixing. Also agree on the ATCs. They're really made to be flush mounted where you get an LF baffle step lift. Free standing, they are bass-light. They need stereo subs or a flush mount, or both. After long term listening now, with the KH420s in my control room, flush mounted into the wall, they are nearly perfectly flat. Given that most people will find actually flat FR to be too bright and fatiguing, I will also agree with that. I find them a touch bright in my room. Not because that's an error, but because my room is basically a hemi-anechoic chamber. It captures what the speakers are putting out with very little influence from the room. I will be tilting down their HF using a house curve in SoundID Reference to account for that. Just a personal preference. All the best!

[@tutengenezemuziki]

Valuable intel there I would suggest Ex-Machina Soundworks Pulsar for your Setup...😎

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for the tip! Yeah, someone else had recommended those as well. They have a steep rolloff at 35 hz which makes them inadequate to use without a sub for me. They're down 6 dB once you get slightly under 30 Hz. Have you listened to them? Do you own a pair? Curious on your thoughts on them. My KH420s are +/- 3dB down to 26 Hz, and that's extended with my hard flush mount setup in the new room. They're very interesting monitors though and I would love to test a pair out. Cheers!

[@doulos5322]

the monitors look to big for the space would love to look at your room graphs from like room eq wizard your acoustic treatments matters way more then your monitors

[@warpacademy]

They're not too big for the space at all. I tested them in a room of very similar dimensions to my final flush mounted implementation. See here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpeykJWqecqLoMU These midfields are running at 6'10" apart, which is well within manufacturer recommended spec. I'll be posting a video soon of the final Room EQ Wizard tests with waterfall, all SPL and phase, and ETC, going through full acoustic tests.

[@doulos5322]

@@warpacademy You addressed the acoustics in your other video which I didn't see before seeing this one in a very professional manner. So yeah for that much dampening and acoustic treatment. The speakers are fine but if you were just going to put them in with some panels and a cloud and throw back into the room without doing extensively what you did, I would think that they would be too big for the space.

[@warpacademy]

You certainly have to consider the amount of low frequency SPL that a monitor puts out. Midfields can overpower a small room for sure.

[@tylermichaudweb]

@@warpacademy How big is your room?

[@warpacademy]

The studio where they're installed flush a hard front wall is 20' long, 16' wide, 10' tall (these are the interior dims of the isolation shell). Then there's a ton of treatment inside that room which brings in the effective interior dims a bit more.

[@davidfuller581]

This has generally been my experience with Focals too. Flattering in the mids and top, weak in the bass, fall apart when pushed. Neumanns are just consistent.

[@warpacademy]

Thanks for chiming in with your thoughts and experience David. Cheers.

[@mikelo303]

Neumann are often labeled as boring monitors, so that may be a good thing to some.

[@warpacademy]

Indeed they are. I think the people who label them as boring as doing so for shock value on KZbin. They're anything but boring to me. I get excited when I hear everything I need to hear, and nothing hyping the sound. They're flat, accurate, detailed, clinical. An excellent reference grade monitor. Cheers!

[@rishabhbose29]

Yes they are. But from a Mixing Engineer's perspective this what we need. It is out job to take a " boring " piece of Music and make it sonically as rich and interesting as possible and Neumann'd are great when it comes to that. The Mids and Highs are ptetty linear. Nothing is hyped so you know what you are putting inyo these guys. I have a small room but it is properly treated. My setup is KH120 with the KH750. And I am very happy with the sound. What I like about Neumann is that since the top end is not hyped up, you can work on them for long hours without getting ear fatigue. Cheers !!

[@R.A.G.G.A.R]

@@rishabhbose29 💯% agree

[@Strepite]

I don't find them boring at all...