Which One Do You Trust? These Sub $100 Backpacking Water Filters and Purifiers are Wildly Different

Gear in this video:
01:38 Rapidpure: bit.ly/3HKT1pk
04:29 Grayl Geopress: bit.ly/3HKjF1C
07:40 Steripen: bit.ly/3tQ3dXy
11:02 Lifestraw: bit.ly/3xBCZcA
13:14 Katadyn BeFree: bit.ly/3b5JzjR
My Super Expensive/Overkill favorite purifier of all time, the MSR Guardian is great for backpacking in heavily contaminated areas or places with super silty/dirty water: bit.ly/3OedEwv
Update: After making this video I used Lifestraw's new 1L Peak Squeeze filter, which is very comparable to the BeFree, but has a more robust water bag and faster flow rate, and is less expensive. Check it out here: bit.ly/3tNDfE3
My favorite backpacking gear list:
Backpack: bit.ly/3mPhNdY
Sleeping Bag: bit.ly/3yaUbr1
Satellite Communicator: bit.ly/3HqTIUi
Camp Stove: bit.ly/34mBc06
Cook pot: bit.ly/3tdCZ23
Freeze dried Food: pinnaclefoods.co/
Headlamp: bit.ly/3uf1Mm3
Rain Jacket: bit.ly/3JGoOYU
Fleece Mid-layer | ALL-PACA Fleece Hoodie: bit.ly/3HCrpAN
Down Puffy Jacket (warm!): bit.ly/32Jn5Sb
Down Puffy Jacket (lightweight):
Hiking Boots: bit.ly/3NbSJcb
Hiking Socks: bit.ly/3qLVyaI
Gloves | Hestra Bike Ergo Grip Glove: amzn.to/3pCuGu2
Water Filter: bit.ly/3tNDfE3
Water Bladder: bit.ly/3t2SrxF
Camp Pillow: bit.ly/34n4749
Folding Knife: bit.ly/3sXQNNH
Trekking Poles: bit.ly/3Hzq4LB
Sunglasses: bit.ly/3NtJQKR
Looking for the right backpacking water filtration or purification system? Here I breakdown five of the most common or popular water treatment solutions for under $100. Note: Purification and filtration are slightly different. Purifiers, such as the RapidPure and the Grayl here, can remove ultra-small viruses. Filters do not. Filters remove bacteria, protozoa, and non-virus contaminants.
NOTE: These are affiliate links where I'll earn a small commission if you make a purchase at no additional cost to you, but it's a great way to show your support. Thanks!
Sponsored by RapidPure: www.rapidpurewater.com/
Special thanks to
WileyX: www.wileyx.com/
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Blog: www.in4adventure.com/

[@alexwbanks70]

Squeeze is my choice. Light, flows well and can backflush every fill if you want. Paired with smart water bottles, clean one with the sports cap it fits right on the filter to backflush.

[@commanderjroc]

I just got the grayl a few weeks back, the 16 oz version and can't wait to try it out. I always keep a sawyer squeeze as a backup along with boiling water.

[@DumpTrump4TRE45ON]

The Steri Pen is great for when you want to drink tap water in other countries with dubious water supplies.

[@2bfrank657]

My partner and I backpacked around SE Asia for six months many years ago. A Steripen Classic (as shown in video) saved literally hundreds of single use water bottles being thrown away. We used rechargeable batteries the whole time of course.

[@ZachBrimhall]

After extensive research and in field use, I chose the Grayl purifier last year. For me, works perfect and fast. Just make sure you loosen the cap before trying to press down. Zero problems.

[@696969bold]

I use the Grayl and the water tastes great! I take the Grayl on international travel and well worth its weight. I do have a Sawyer Squeeze/Cnoc dirty bag for domestic long trail, multi-day ultralight with a fast fill quick connect for my bladder. That being said, the Grayl is my preferred choice for day hikes.

[@markperry222]

Another useful video thanks. The Rapidpure is new to me, it is nice to know that it is freeze resistant. One additional good thing about water purifiers is that (the Grayl, not sure about others) they filter out heavy metals. This is not just a gimmick. In the back country in the US this may not be an issue, but on the rail trails or other industrial/exindustrial areas it could be, or the Flint River for example. In other parts of the world, like China, the majority of the ground water is contaminated. Worth thinking about for some folks.

[@kevinstarski1598]

Oh it's definitely an issue, way more than these filter companies want to admit. There are tens of thousands of abandoned mines all over US and esp. west leaching into the water sources...

[@davidhagler8475]

For anyone looking to buy the befree filter, I would recommend getting the hydrapak brand bag. I have the 70 oz bag and it works great with the befree filter and is much more durable than the bag that comes with the befree filter. Also if you just want to buy the befree filter separate from the little bag that's something that can be done to keep the price down.

[@justjonoutdoors]

It would be worth pointing out that the replacement filters for the Grayl are a lot cheaper than the initial investment.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

I love my Sawyer Squeeze! I got a CNOC bag to go with it, and it's like the perfect combo. I've been using my filter for 7 years without issues.

[@BackpackingTV]

That's amazing!

[@amyjones-lonestarhoosier2029]

I have a question. I have the Sawyer squeeze and after my last trip I back flushed it and cleaned it and let it air dry like I read to do but this last tone I went out on trail there was no flow at all. It was all I could do to get a trickle or a drop. What happened?? It was only from October to July that it sat not being used. Any help?

[@WanderingSwitchback]

@@amyjones-lonestarhoosier2029 I have a video that includes troubleshooting guidance: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iqG6XoiBrrOVbNk If that's the only part you want, check out the chapters for troubleshooting (the video will give you some general care ideas and such as well). Did you try back flushing it before your trip, too? I would recommend this in the future if you didn't. I've had mine give me trouble if it's been a few months since I last used it, so I had to learn this one the hard way, but I've had no issues since then.

[@rmuthanna]

@@amyjones-lonestarhoosier2029 I found this too - just back flush and then clean with bleach and back flush with distilled water after use - then before going out on your next trip, flush distilled water through it a day before leaving, works fine after that

[@simpleoutdoors1]

the lake water here in northern ny is fairly clean so all we use is the sawyer squeeze and mini, boiling the water for coffee/food most times, like it so much we havnt used anything else yet.

[@naturescreed]

sawyer squeeze all day! have tried the steri pen & pumps before but the squeeze is the lightest, easiest, & most efficient system i've tried. But have had to replace it every couple seasons.

[@user-qn8fi4nc9i]

Why would you replace them? Aren't they supposed to last for decades?

[@naturescreed]

@@user-qn8fi4nc9i they eventually get pretty clogged up & filter at a slower rate requiring much more pressure to push the water through. The more often it's backwashed the longer you'll get out of it, but still find it never really gets back to it's original flow rate.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

@@naturescreed Have you tried soaking in hot water or vinegar? I've had mine for years without having to replace it. Be sure to pre-filter, too, using a bandana or something similar. This video will help you: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iqG6XoiBrrOVbNk

[@naturescreed]

@@WanderingSwitchback i've done both multiple times. Helped a little but not back to new. Might have frozen a bit at some point is my guess. But ya i dont pre filter at all, no time for that lol.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

@@naturescreed I'm not sure that them freezing will slow them down, it's more that it can crack the filter as the water crystalizes and expands. Always wise to protect them from that. But I haven't found pre-filtering to be too time-consuming, and it definitely saves me frustration later in my trip! Especially with a CNOC bag, since it has such a wide opening for collecting water.

[@frogturtle]

went with the grayl, full size 24oz size not the ultralight one. takes less time (8 sec vs. 10 sec) to purify more water at the cost of weight. it is pretty bulky. but I intend to use it mostly for emergencies since it does claim to purify viruses and metals. for a lighter and more recreational setup I’d probably just run a sawyer squeeze/smart water bottle x2 combo. I personally would only use a system that lets me purify *and then store* water, rather than only purifying it as I drink.

[@AndreFavron]

After all that has been said and done it seems that the dream filtration system for hiking is the Katadyne with a collapsible bag, and for backpack camping is the Grayl 24oz GeoPress with the new, (from Grayl) 30oz stainless steel nesting cup and lid that you can also place in a fire. IMHO

[@jackiepalmer8882]

After much research, I opted for the SteriPEN and always use the included filter. So far, no problems and no “floating things”. I will add that I always carry tablets as a back up - just in case.

[@4tdaz]

@Predbeau101 I mean at that point you are drinking pee which is chemical so nothing works on it

[@coolbreezeoutdoors7177]

Sawyer squeeze and steri- pen combo is a no worry way to go.

[@lilricky2515]

Pretty sure Sawyer is the most popular filter/purifier on the market. It works, its light, and with the Sawyer Squeeze, it can be used indefinitely. Oh, and made in the USA!

[@giftedfox4748]

I have the Grayl bottle and it was only 59 dollars at my nearby camping store (Rock/Creek). It looks really handy and looking forward in using it. One of the main reasons why I got that one is because I have my dog with me on my trips so being able to pour clean water into her bowl or bottle is a plus. I also do have the tablets in my bag as a just in case measurement however. Always good to have two different sources to clean your water.

[@kriswibbenhorstermeister9885]

I have always used the sawyer squeeze, but the water bottles don’t last for long after you have squished them repeatedly. My buddy uses a system like the Katadyn Be Free but different name brand, and I am a bit jealous watching him just scoop up water and drink it. I mainly got the squeeze because it can filter like 100k gallons of water before you have to replace it. I’ve been thinking of taking the squeeze as a backup, and purchasing the Katadyn Hiker Pro and pumping the water since it seems so much faster. I like some of the other offerings like the grayl, but I’m trying to keep the weight down as much as possible. The stainless steel water bottle has to be very heavy for long distance backpacking trips.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

Have you considered CNOC bags for the Sawyer? I've found this to be a WAY better option. Too much pressure and they can get a pinhole, but Leukotape has fixed that for me (they suggest Superglue). I go into it in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iqG6XoiBrrOVbNk I tend to set mine to gravity connected to the hose of my bladder, or over my Nalgene. I have a video about how I do that, too.

[@ericcastillo6674]

Sawyer squeeze, however I like that geopress I do believe that will be my next purchase.

[@Oldsparkey]

I purchased a Grayl and the three types of filters for it when they 1st came on the market. Used it one time and tossed it in the junk drawer never to touch it again. Life straw is OK if you want to lay on your belly to drink. Or get the water in a cup and them drink it with the Life Straw. My personal choice is the BeFree with a Hydrapck seeker 2 liter collapsible bottle. My back up , safe water , system is the Aquamira drops which weight 1 ounce. .

[@TheEverydayManChannel]

Why did you dump the Grayl?

[@TheHybridHunter307]

I'm a Camelback bladder fan. My go to is the Katadyn Hiker Pro

[@shawnr6117]

I have a straw type filter but one that comes with a pre-filter attachment, a hose, dirty water bag and backflush syringe, unlike the lifestraws that I've seen which have nothing included

[@BUZZKILLJRJR]

The reason I'm going to go with the Grayl it is hands down the best one in this lineup, purifier is the best way. Bring a cotton pre-filter, or a Milbank bag or something to get out chunks of anything. the grayl would do better than almost anything on the market right now for ease of use pack ability so on all contained, and you can throw another filter in your bag

[@heidih2887]

good info/learned some things! :D The one thing I don't like about the Katadyne, is the funky strong plastic taste it imparts to the water, even when cold and freshly filtered. OK if adding food/bevarage mix etc. but not as enjoyable with plain water. Not sure how much of the odor and taste is from the container bag, and how much might be from the filter itself. Beats getting sick from bad water, but I have to work harder to motivate myself to drink plain water, especially after sitting awhile and/or getting warm. :D

[@JavierLeceta]

Fill bladder with aprox 3/4 of water and some lemon drops. Put all night in freezer and rinse the next day. Works in my case. It,s a Rei advice from manufacturer

[@rockytopwrangler2069]

.. Have many of these and more .. For day trips a Befree,, with CNOC Bag for 1-2day/night trips ....... for longer and multi day/night outings ,, a pump filter or purifier provides best volume,,easy fill and use and zero maintenence throughout the entire year (unless you want to) ... and use a Nalgene for container(s) .. durable ,, last a lifetime ,, work well boiling hot or frozen cold ...

[@hindsfeetonhighplaces]

Sawyer Squeeze for sure. I carry a 6 liter bladder for camp use that I just hang up in a a tree with the SS attached to the tubing. Gravity fed, so I can just drop a water bottle under it and let gravity do the work. Lets me have all the water I need for dinner and breakfast, fill my travel bottles and away I go. While this system is bit cumbersome on the trail (I usually carry 2 .7 liter SmartWater bottles that I only put clean water in) in a pinch I know I can just fill and go, sucking through the filter.

[@hindsfeetonhighplaces]

I also carry purification tablets as a backup and, of course, boiling as the backup to the backup.

[@jacksonhikes1344]

This is something I tell my customers at a local outdoor store I work at is that one thing you can do with the SteriPEN, is to use it in conjunction with the Sawyer or Katadyn style filters. So for example once the water goes through the filter, you could then sterilize your water to ensure viruses have been killed. Yes, it is a little more expensive then just a sawyer, or a Grayl, however using them together it would allow you to purify and filter large volumes of water, and it is fairly light weight. What are your thoughts on this fellow outdoor enthusiasts? Would love to converse with everyone. Edit: Great video on water filtration/purification! Very informative

[@medicus5565]

I do the very same!

[@stewescapes9514]

I have sawyer gravity setup with a cheap Chinese rechargeable UV stainless water container. Then I usually have a smart water bottle as a second container.

[@PennYankeeWoodworks]

I run a steri-pen but if I were to add to my system I’d go with a sawyer squeeze as a first stage then use steri-pen. Money shouldn’t be a talking point about filtering water for a hiker in the backcountry. Giardia can hurt you bad in the backcountry. 2 things all hikers should have is steri-pen and I reach satellite communicator if they get hurt.

[@Case16710]

I have a sawyer squeeze and gave my son a katadyn befree. We use the sawyer with 2 liter cnoc bags as a gravity filter at camp, and the befree while on the trail. The befree is much faster and easier to use, but slows down after a couple days. We’ve had good luck cleaning it though. Worst thing about the befree is that it develops pinhole leaks if you look at it funny, or give it to a 12 year old. The sawyer and Cnoc bags seem bulletproof so far.

[@BackpackingTV]

"develops pinhole leaks if you look at it funny" haha that's great. Unfortunate, but yeah.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

I agree, CNOC and Sawyer is the best combo ever!

[@dwightWSmith73]

I use the MSR HyperFlow™ Microfilter. Quick and reliable

[@joshgonzalez2885]

I still am a big fan of the Katadyne Be Free and iodine tablets (with the neutralizer for taste). Filters and kills everything

[@DarrenGerbrandt]

missing the Platypus Quickdraw in that lineup

[@dogwalk3]

yeah im curious about that one. heard a lot of good things lately.

[@TheMccluref]

My first quick draw didn't work that well. The second one is working fine but I am always taking a backup until I am sure it's dependable

[@BranNew1]

Yeah. I like sawyer, it’s simple/effective. 🙌

[@johnd9357]

I have a sawyer squeeze, the grayl ultra press and the grayl geopress. I prefer the grayl. I will say, my first experience with grayl was not positive, as I got a bottle with some type of issue and i couldn’t get the water to actually filter. All of the water would shoot past the seal and never actually pass through the filter. Literally all of the water would squeeze out in between the clean water bottle and dirty water bottle. However I sent that one back and the two I got after that work flawlessly. Not a drop of water makes it past the seal, all of it gets filtered. They’re really handy little gadgets. I still have my sawyer but I use my grayls instead because I want to know that I’m filtering viruses for myself and my family on the trail.

[@zal4630]

shit mine does that too, but only if i fill too much in the bottle. I need to unscrew the cap to let some air and its fine. U think its broken?

[@kriswibbenhorstermeister9885]

I’m waiting for someone who reviews water filters to discuss the micron size of virus’. Most being smaller than .1 microns. I would love to see filtered water under a microscope to see what’s left. Dangerous virus’ are more common in the water supply of less developed countries and not too common in the US. If I ever have concerns, I would filer the water, then boil the filtered water to be safe.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

@@kriswibbenhorstermeister9885 short of using an electron microscope, I doubt anyone creating videos will be able to examine for viruses, although I agree, it would be cool!

[@mikeydurden]

​@@kriswibbenhorstermeister9885Well the Sawyer makes no claim for viruses

[@kriswibbenhorstermeister9885]

@@mikeydurden true. I was speaking to the Grayl.

[@oldgoat8861]

YOU ARE 100% CORRECT.....new campers/backpackers take notice to this video. My Grayle is tried and true.....simple, light carry, true purification. Fill as you go , no need to carry extra weight. I shy away from the streri-pen....only as last resort backup. Steri-pen tastes like mud worm water a d battery is a concern because agitation is a necessity and not guaranteed. I would filter pump water Into to a vessel..than steri-pen...but not straight from a puddle or stream.

[@PennYankeeWoodworks]

That’s one of the most ignorant things I’ve read in a while. How does steripen make water taste like anything? That grayle isn’t protecting you from viruses and most cysts.

[@terryqueen3233]

I have a grayl but I like that befree one

[@figy1288]

Thank you

[@pw1298]

What do you think about MSR offerings’?

[@flynnstone3580]

Hey Eric, great review. Check out the Epic Nalgene O G. Company base in Colorado and made in U.S.A.👍

[@firemarshaldil]

Weird to me that you didn't cover the Sawyer squeeze?

[@michaelkohut8037]

Has someone pointed out that Grayl is supposed to do both mechanical contaminants and bacteria/viruses? I think that is important point not to forget, because out of all of these it makes it the most versatile filter, although bit heavier.

[@americafirst5453]

Sawyer is the only filter that hasn't given me a problem.

[@matthewmaxwell3845]

More expensive and a bit bulky...but I'm an MSR Guardian guy!

[@adventureswithcorrine]

Why not the Sawyer systems?

[@p3xpierre]

Cool video, I think I’ll have to try the Grayl! Any thoughts on purification tablets though? It’s cheaper that any of these options, and lighter. The only downsides I can think of are no filtration and it taste like swimming pool water 🤢

[@markperry222]

@Predbeau101 You could use a bandana, buff or even a coffee filter as a pre-filter.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

I use a bandana, but Steri Pen makes a pre-filter you might consider, too. My biggest issue with the tablets is that they can upset my stomach after a few days. I've gotten 7+ years out of my Sawyer filter with, I suspect, many more to come. For me, that's been the better investment, but I carry Aquamira as a backup.

[@cabinvibeetsystore9094]

New sub! Liked 🙏🌙😛😛

[@dm9078]

I’m going to try the Grayl

[@brandonwilliams2431]

You won't be disappointed with the grayl. I use mine every day vs buying bottled water it's easy cheaper to replace filters plus way way less waste

[@EverythingIsPhotogenic]

It should be noted that when comparing lifestraw to other filters, that lifestraw filters parasites - including the flex and peak models that function more like a katadyn or Sawyer squeeze. People look at flow rate as a determining factor all too often. Yes, lifestraw is slower, it also is using a finer membrane and filtering more than the majority of competitors. The only true way to ensure water is 100% safe to drink is boiling, bit filters/purification systems are a solid option. Make sure you research your filter. Pay for QUALITY not QUANTITY.

[@WanderingSwitchback]

Even in certain places, boiling doesn't do enough. For example, in Zion NP, the Virgin River gets a cyanobacteria that puts off a toxin that cannot be treated out of the water with portable methods, including boiling. Boiling also won't get heavy metals out, such as from a creek downstream from a mine, or pesticides from agricultural runoff. So researching where you're headed is CRITICAL.

[@beckypatel6935]

@@WanderingSwitchback 100% agree

[@mikesmith1679]

The Steripen is marketed as a “Purifier”. In the video you said, “it’s a filter”?

[@PennYankeeWoodworks]

Steripen is by far the best. Protects from bacteria, Protozoa, cysts and viruses. Giardia can stop you for days if not longer. Physical filters work but are risky and don’t filter viruses

[@tom6363]

Why no Sawyer or Platypus?

[@crlaf1978]

Grayl all day, every day, hands down

[@markheming3507]

Total Sawyer Squeeze guy

[@middleagedhiker703]

No sawyer squeeze?

[@hoatzen7887]

He probably didn't put it in the video because it's already the most commonly used/known about.

[@BackpackingTV]

True, it's among the most popular options and I probably should've included it for that, but I spent a good amount of time using it last year and just never got excited about it.

[@hikingmovie]

Sawyer Squeeze

[@pakleader4]

Why doesn’t the survival filter straw and hand pump ever mentioned anymore! Is there something wrong with the system people only illustrate those filters. Is survival filter system or msr filter bad. Not because of price!!!🤔

[@czenkusm]

Grayl by far

[@nathanbullion2577]

HOLY GRAYL for me any day ....

[@Squirrel200]

I have had 3 of the UV pins and thay lasted 1 day , 3 days 1 month so I will never use again and it was over 3 years so not the same Manufacturing batch. Junk ! Your mileage may very! you may have good luck. Not me it broke on a Expedition.

[@Goat.Herder]

Just use purification tablets after filtering 👍

[@coolbreezeoutdoors7177]

The Be Free has failed me twice

[@hooperbloop7625]

Platypus gravity works 4.0.

[@bw3126]

Dude, you need to do your homework on the steripen.. UV light is hands down the most effective (and non chemical) way to sterilize water. Virus’s cannot “hide behind a floaty” as you say. The light reflects throughout the water because it’s contained in a bottle (best to use non transparent bottle). I agree, a downside to UV light is no filtration, only sterilization. The best use case for the Steripen is not collecting pond water in the backcountry.. for that, use a filter. Like you said, use the pen for travel to sterilize taps, or clean stream water. I used a Steripen during a 6 month trip around the world (to several third world countries) and never had an issue.

[@hoatzen7887]

yeah sure....use UV if you like Cryptosporidium and Giardia.

[@BackpackingTV]

I'm glad you never had any issues! And yes, if it's done right, you won't. But it's important for people to know where they can go wrong with this type of device. Many people here are just learning for the first time and they could easily not use the Steripen correctly, in my opinion.

[@GoodkatNW]

@@hoatzen7887 Not sure if you're being serious or not, but both of those are handled relatively easily by UVC

[@GoodkatNW]

Shadowing for UVC sterilization is a very real thing. The light does not "reflect" through the water, it penetrates it. The highest reflection index for UVC in the germicidal wavelengths is typically polished aluminum, and newer variants of a plastic that bounces nearly 90% of the irradiance back. The plastic in a water bottle will not bounce the UVC back into the water, it will simply absorb it for the most part. Inactivation of waterborne viruses (nonliving) and bacteria or living pathogens is directly related to the fluence, which is easily effected by murky water. None of this is new, low pressure mercury bulbs at 254nm is still the most common form of water sanitation behind chlorine.

[@696969bold]

@@GoodkatNW yeah, what he said. 🩺

[@danielgeci4513]

If they bade the rapidpure to fit my single wall nalgene bottle that be cool.

[@billnott5811]

Not as single sawyer ? .. next….

[@coolbreezeoutdoors7177]

The Sawyer is the only filter that removes micro-plastics, as well

[@johnd9357]

Nope. It’s just the only one that advertises it. Any filter that catches bacteria will also stop micro plastics.

[@coolbreezeoutdoors7177]

@@johnd9357 Ahhh, yes, good point.

[@m.filion7081]

I have a Grayl Ultralight and it does take care of micro-plastic.

[@garyo4456]

I think you have it wrong….if it runs thru a filter medium….it’s “filtered”. I use Platypus, tablet/drops for purification and Rechargeable Steripen.

[@douglasconrad8969]

No to all those units.

[@BackpackingTV]

What do you use?

[@dontask7898]

Wow, just no huh? Good for you bud.

[@johnd9357]

@Predbeau101 boiling also doesn’t clean the water. It sterilizes it, but it doesn’t CLEAN it. All the chlorine, sediment, heavy metals, pesticides, etc etc will still be in there......just more concentrated. A water purifier actually cleans the water as well as sterilizing it.

[@TheBeatenPaths]

It's sad that we need a "sub $100" water filter. Good Lord. I'm exaggerating to make my point, but not by much, when I say that I'd almost rather catch beaver fever than pay $100 for a water filter.

[@PennYankeeWoodworks]

I think it’s sad you think $100 is so much money

[@TheBeatenPaths]

@@PennYankeeWoodworks Lol. It is for a water filter. It's a convenience item and time saver. I could take the time to boil it....for basically free, or use Aquatabs. They're relatively new items. What do you think I did in the 70's & 80's before they were even invented!? These companies are all run like Steve Jobs run Apple. They make you think you need their product.