Why 6.5 or 6 mm dominate the .308 Winchester? - Long Range Lectures

[@electrontube]

Your remarks on shooters (or anyone) that leave garbage... very much appreciated. My older boys watch your video series and one of them heard your remarks. He's organizing a clean-up of our range with his Boy Scout Troop now. Thanks for being a good example when so few are.

[@possumpopper89]

Most factory 308 rifles have a 22 inch or shorter barrel. They 168 grain match loads rarely exceed 2650 FPS. Years ago in our long range rifle class the 168 federal match loads were going subsonic at 800-900 yards and tumbling at 1000 yards. The military “long range M188” sniper ammo now uses a 175 grain bullet and allows about 1100 yards before going subsonic. Depending on where you shoot the .308 may not be able to engage the targets beyond 11 yards at all. If the match is within 1000 yards the .308 can be a fine choice. You aren’t losing any accuracy and barrel life is a strong consideration.

[@seamusfischer3968]

I have been shooting for over forty years. I apprenticed under a gunsmith when I was a teen for 3 years hoping to make a career from that time. It became a serious pastime I am happy and sad to report. I served for 23 years, serving multiple tours in every corner of the world with all branches, and nations personnel. I retired earlier this year at E8 and both happy and proud to be here still today as a father, mentor and citizen. Reading through the comments, it makes me very happy to see how much great information (thank you LRSU) or bad is out there for all of us to benefit from in different ways. It makes me sad to see people argue over and convey ill feelings over a small topic such as trajectory, "rise", ballistics, gravity, etc. I admire our Constitution and respect our 1st amendment however behavior and rhetoric exercising that right, not only here but it so many other forums, damages our collective disposition to those seeking to degrade or usurp our 2nd amendment rights. My only opinion on the below comment regarding "rise"which might be just a difference of vernacular- please pause-think about what you write and how many people will see it-When you attach an icon such as US Army, or other orgs-it brings discredit to the organization via the negative and offensive commenting whereas when it is only a person's name it only affects one person. Quiet Professionalism goes a long way. Research and comprehension of the subject is paramount. I am not a physics expert. I am not probably an expert on anything I may have thought I was. I study, experiment, execute my craft. I make determinations based off facts(hopefully-when I have the luxury). A bullet WILL "rise" slightly leaving the muzzle-however it will NEVER rise above the axis of any barrel-unless you add wings for lift (-:-) That is a fact of physics. www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm Hope this is helpful-and if I offended anyone-my days of debating are over-I only have my experience and some wisdom to offer. Thank you again to Brice and LRSU for having a great channel and information to share with us.

[@seamusfischer3968]

Feteasca Alba Either you like the grapes or you must be Romanian or from Moldova-a place some of my brothers have worked with the host nation military. Dale, I can appreciate your "stolen valor" comment. I feel the same, however I fall into the 1% by your statistics...I have no obligation to prove anything to you. If my comment somehow bothered you, I apologize. I was only interested in passing on information I have obtained throughout my military career and involvement with the shooting industry and to also say, leaving negative, profane comments brings discredit to yourself and your branch when you have an avatar or icon identifying a specific military affiliation. I did not intend to "comes to these comments" and spread misinformation or negative comments. Make no mistake Sir, my service to my country is 100% verifiable. Godspeed to you Sir and your endeavors.

[@seamusfischer3968]

Feteasca Alba self employed Easy does it Dale...no one was insulting you. Actually I googled your avatar name and found it was a grape variety used for wines grown in Romania and Moldova. I was hoping for a different reply so I could ask you about your drift-boats for fly fishing as I recently taught my daughter to cast...but considering your disposition...this has to qualify as the strangest dialogue I have ever encountered. I have been respectful to you. You are not interested in reciprocation. Good luck to you.

[@Yamdarnocnivek]

Seamus Fischer Thank you for being one of the few reasonable people in the comments section.

[@CarlosSanchez-kd8et]

Seamus Fischer great sr

[@Mr.Schitzengigglez]

Seamus Fischer thank you for your service, Sir. Also, thank you for sharing your considerable insight.

[@NDRN88]

Thanks for an honest approach. Though you clearly have a preference, you did not rule one caliber out, you consistently gave the pros and cons for each, and acknowledged that they all have uses of some sort. Thank you.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Phangos is that not the case? If I need knock down a fatter heavier bullet at shorter range has the advantage. For what I do (PRS competition primarily) the 6 & 6.5 are far superior.

[@Ukelay13]

Thanks for the great video. I'm glad you mentioned about barrel life, most people neglect that detail.

[@thormusique]

Thanks so much for this! It's exactly the info I've been looking for. And what you said about "trigger trash" was beautifully put, and something we all need to take to heart.

[@Thamac15]

300 win mag for life! Because it’s loud, powerful, and it looks so damn sexy

[@matthewlyness9692]

7 mag as well!!!

[@elcantrell3]

Try 338 Lapua Mag

[@stuckcase7775]

215 gr Berger VLD in that round could be the most complete round ever devised

[@cole1968cxxt]

True but 338 lapua looks better

[@hugtango]

8x68s was a monster

[@CB-68-westcreations]

I didn't see it mentioned here because most people forget about it the 1st place. But the Swiss 6.5 X 55 is an extremely good cartridge for long range any in modern firearms can get a lot more velocity which means a straighter shot with less drop. Loaded to modern specifications it is not to be underestimated. But I still like my 6.5 Creedmore as well. Give all your shooting is 1000 to 1250 yards even a 30-06 can make the shot, serious hit in ballistic performance though, That would need a different set up. Such as maybe 45 minutes of angle in the scope Mount. Lol great video and you gained another subscriber. Thanks for taking the time to share the information.

[@MountaintravelerEddie]

One thing in just making a shot and shooting to kill as a sniper. A .308 (7.62X51mm) (M40A5) has a 1:12 twist using a 175 grain SBTHP or M118LR and has the stopping power. When looking at barrel life, when you have a 1:10 twist with a standard civilian rifle, the barrel wear will be different than a barrel with a 1:12 twist. Additionally, the .308 (7.62X51mm) is adopted as the standard NATO cartridge for the military (DoDIC A011). There is no choice and we snipers learn how to use it effectively, unless you are in MARSOC and use the MK13 .300 Win Mag which uses the 220gr SBTHP. The 6.5X47 is accurate and ballistically better than the .308 when shooting paper, not people. I have used both and when going to 1,000 yards, the 6.5X47 is better for accuracy in shooting paper like I said. I have shot competition as well as being a sniper. Just my own 2 cents on this. (USMC/Retired)

[@Ryan-jx4vh]

Ummmm... Socom just switched to 6.5 creedmor over the 308. That argument is dead 💀

[@Actuary1776]

Ryan Davidson Not dead in the slightest. You pick the right caliber for the mission. I’m taking 308 anything 500 in.

[@spartanhonor7538]

@@Actuary1776 You have it right Bro, "You pick the right caliber for the mission." Holes in paper vs. Killing Bad guy Shooting at you. Different missions, different cartridges. I'm a .308 man, U.S.Army. Our Brothers incountry are requesting .308's for range and knockdown.

[@1stmardivgrunt314]

eddieg1979 : I hope you answer this back you might be who I'm looking to visit with. I also am a former grunt Marine (G2/7) from back in the day. I'm putting together a rifle that I can get back into shooting with. I've got everything picked out except the caliber of the rifle. I want to do "some" match shooting but not sure how much, but also some coyote hunting. I have no interest in the smaller rounds like 243 and 5.56. But .308 can turn a coyote inside out if you blow the shot placement. The point is, getting a read on deciding between .308 and 6.5 creed is really hard today because you can't tell if somebody knows their shit or not. I am not at your level obviously, but did shoot expert and had a lot of time with a rifle in my hands, along with shooting competitive pistol. Do you have any thoughts based on want I'm wanting to do? Semper Fi

[@fireball676]

Ryan Socom also bought the mk23. When you don’t have to consider barrel life, 6.5 is better after the 500 yard mark.. if you do have to consider barrel life, .308 wins all day. Honestly after owning 6.5 AR10’s as well as .308s... I’d avoid a 6.5 AR10. They are a pain in the ass as far as gas regulation and pressures. That and you gotta look at your purpose in using a precision semiautomatic... it’s smarter to opt for the better inside 500 yard route.

[@johnmiller6902]

excellent video! filled in a lot of blanks about long range shooting. I'm was in the market for a long range rifle before i saw this video, gave me much needed info on my choices. thanks keep the videos coming! great job!

[@glenntoal6346]

grateful video very helpful to a new shooter like myself as I'm trying to decide on my first long range rifle. Thanks for taking the time

[@rifleman1873]

Good points. I thought that you were going to ignore energy, but you got there. Thanks for emphasizing the message about cleanup, it is going to take all of us to further the sport.

[@danstuart2872]

Comments sections are sooooooo much more entertaining than the actual video

[@MrSukiflash]

Just wanted to thank you very much for such a detailed in depth video.I keep a recording of it by my bed and recliner,you have completely replaced all of the sleep aids I use to have to take.I showed my sleep doctor your video and he will be contacting you about using it at his clinic.Thanks AgainSleeping Soundly

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

James Gordon BUUAAAHHAHAHA!!!! I’m dying! Best comment I’ve gotten.

[@212driller]

Considering cost per round fired including ammunition costs and firearms maintenance (barrel life, etc), and the value of learning about wind drift and bullet drop compensation at long ranges, I'll stick with my "outdated" .308 thanks.

[@matthewrosen8845]

great vid Bryce, this is something I had to learn on my own! which I am sure a lot of us have. You are a great representative of our sport ,so thx !

[@vresor]

Excellent video. Back here in the temperate forests of the flat land, we are lucky to see 200 yards, much less 1200 or 2000 yards. Sure love Utah though.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

+Vince Resor Thanks for watching.

[@thetruth3768]

I KNOW. WHERE I GREW UP IN THE SOUTHEAST THE ONLY PLACE YOU COULD SEE 100 YDS WAS AT A FOOTBALL GAME

[@Plainsimple67]

@@thetruth3768 😂😂😂

[@kevinarmstrong3125]

Well said Bryce.......All the ballistic info was great but I think the last statement about shooter trash was the best info you gave:)

[@bobsulivan8300]

now I can hear it! thank you for the video.

[@ChitFromChinola]

Hey, good stuff. Love the whiteboard - easy on the eyes and super well organized. Well done.

[@italianrelic]

I just love .308 never shot the other calibers but I've shot and hit 800 yards nothing else I can really say

[@mrmidnight32]

Honestly when people chase these optimal calibers it kind of makes me laugh a little. The entire point of us shooting long or medium range is the challenge with some of these standard calibers. Shooting a laser beam literally takes away the whole point we shoot. Some guys just want to post the big numbers than chase the experience.

[@cole1968cxxt]

Yeah i like how they try to compare 6.5 to 338 lapua at long range,,big difference is where it counts which is down range, the 338 is a sledge hammer compared to a mozzie bite 6.5 ...

[@BurnDuration]

Cole Lockhart agreed. At the same time, they are two very different tools. A cartridge like the 6mm creedmoor is really specific for PRS gun golf matches, and 338LM is for warfare.

[@randfishleder5108]

Spectacular video. Extremely well done. Brought a lot of facts into one presentation, cleared up a lot of fog on the topic. Thank you for doing it.

[@MrB17bomber]

i like the 25.06 for long range shooting. my father had a 243 my 25.06 always out performed the 243. does anybody in your group shoot a 25.06?

[@bobjohnson9012]

That was very well done, a lot of info condensed. Kind of made the complexe easy to understandable.

[@DeeboComing]

You should make a video for guys transitioning out of .308 land. Maybe recommendations for which 6mm or 6.5 to go with and the pros and cons of reloading different 6mm vs 6.5? Just an idea.

[@nomanmcshmoo8640]

A great video. VERY informative and well balanced. Thank you.

[@hrbestalkinme3690]

I shoot .308 and I love .308. However, it is not because it is ballistically superior to any true precision cartridge. I like it because it costs 55 cents per round and it works in short-action semi autos. It also has long barrel life. I can reload it with the same bullets as my 30-06 and .300 win mag. I look at it in terms of firepower per dollar. Plus, it really can shoot well even with the rainbow arc!

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Can't argue with that.

[@Heimdallr00]

Hr BeStalkinMe ... Worrying about the cost of long-range performance is a little like worrying about the gas mileage you're getting with a 560hp BMW M6... If performance is your primary objective, the cost of getting it is secondary.

[@hrbestalkinme3690]

Heimdallr Right, thats why its not a true long range cartridge. It does offer good firepower per dollar, however.

[@jpap967]

I agree with what you said, but you won't get great precision out of 55 cent per round 308 ammo. sure, it will go bang and net you 2-3 moa or so, but if you want real accuracy you'll need to buy that $1 plus per round match 308 ammo, and at that point, you might as well be buying $1 per round Creedmoor ammo. I weaned myself off of 308 and for anything mid range, I now use 6.5 grendel (25 cents per round for steel case ammo, 68 cents per cheaper brass ammo, 80 cents for match ammo). Less recoil than the 308, similar ballistics for the most part, especially out at 600-800 yards, and fits in an AR15. As far as barrel life goes, to me barrels are consumable items, replacing them is no biggie. As for reloading, I have a feeling that soon 6.5 bullet options will expand considerably as creedmoor has become a very popular option as of late.

[@hrbestalkinme3690]

jpap967 Right and I agree with you. However, I reload the brass from that 55 cent ammo into precise loads for when I need to reach out to 800 meters. 6.5 grendel is definitely a good round for the AR15 platform, but I want more down range energy. I'll probably get a 6.5 creedmoor setup some day if I don't go with 300wm

[@andrewlaughbon9468]

an excellent video. i have one opinion to offer about the differences in the calibers. so many shooters that start off into this and go .308 caliber use a fairly light grain bullet it seems. 150 or 175 even. if you wish to pay attention to the B.C. of what your shooting. it becomes apparent that size to some ( small) degree matters. the 6mm and 6.5 have many things on paper that put it out there. If you track your weight up higher in the .308 caliber however it will most likely translate into better wind handling. we're talking the 200 plus grain bullets. (makes you cringe for the target even time you hit it.) it's not necessarily a direct part of this video. very well laid out information and a big help for anyone that wants to get a long gun.

[@raoulpabon7562]

super nice video get what your saying but i live in holland longest range 300 meters 308 more than enuf and love the big splash in the back stop sorry for the bad english

[@eachday9538]

I'm guessing if you guys wanted longer ranges you would have to shoot through the turning windmill sails like at a mini golf course ;-)

[@raoulpabon7562]

would like to do that but I will get arrested thrown in jail and my guns gone for the rest of my live lol

[@eachday9538]

Hmm, that doesn't sound as fun as I was imagining...

[@innovationsurvival]

Your English is much better than my Dutch.

[@jayjdietrich]

Your English is better than most of ours!

[@kamsova4848]

very week done thanks 4 taking the time to explain to us entry level guys.

[@DeeboComing]

Thank you so much depicting how the bullet is ALWAYS falling and not rising like most people think.

[@myutubeviewer1]

+Blake Patterson Damn you are stupid! Or REALLY green.

[@DeeboComing]

????

[@myutubeviewer1]

+Blake Patterson The video is talking about long range (and VERY long range) ballistics trajectory. If you drop back to “normal” hunting range of say 200 yards with a 168 grain, .308, and 100 yard zero the bullet will have a rise of 1.5 inches (from the muzzle) in the first 100 yards. Then it will drop to 4.3 inches (below the muzzle) at 200 yards. This is from the ballistics calculator on the FEDERAL web site. So, bullets DO RISE, but when referring to the distances for long distance shooting all you see is the drop. If you did not know this you are either STUPID, or REALLY GREEN to shooting.

[@TimKollat]

LOL bullets do NOT rise after being shot. The only reason why your bullet will be high at 100 yards is just because of how you zero your rifle. If its high at 100 its because your barrel is at an upward angle to where the bullet hits high at 100. Its impossible with the physics of the universe and Earth for a projectile to rise after being shot. You really need to think before you ridicule someone (when he was actually right) calling him Stupid and "green" when you are the one thats wrong and have no idea what you're talking about

[@zachary3777]

>Call some stupid. >Don't understand gravity. >L

[@DanaWebb2017]

If you have a savage action you can put a new barrel on without to much difficulty yourself and save some money. All you need is a barrel nut ranch and a reciever ranch and a go gage doesnt hert to have the nogo gage as well, there's some guys that just use an empty brass to set the head space. For a 300 Win Mag mount a 25' varmet barrel on there and the recoil is not that bad. Great video!

[@mrmidnight32]

Honestly when people chase these optimal calibers it kind of makes me laugh a little. The entire point of us shooting long or medium range is the challenge with some of these standard military calibers. Shooting a laser beam literally takes away the whole point of why most of us shoot. Some guys just want to post the big numbers than chase the experience.

[@blueridgeboy6791]

I agree with that to an extent, but I plink long range 400/500 yards with a 22 long riffle for a challenge. My higher calibers are more specific an for good reason.

[@louiedeleon3022]

Excellent presentation, very well researched, extremely well presented.

[@menayazzie7765]

I hate it when I see shot up tvs, toilets, beer bottles, etc. Normally I take with me a empty trash bag and fill it up. I actually was able to completely clean up one of the areas I like going to over a course of several months

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Well done!

[@BrianFrancisHeffron-1776]

Thank you!

[@FreeBayArea]

Keep it up

[@guloguloguy]

....THANK YOU!!!! YOU ARE ONE OF THE BEST, HIGH-INTEGRITY, ECO-FRIENDLY SHOOTERS!!!! BRAVO!!! WELL DONE, SIR!!!! =>w/MUCH RESPECT!!!!

[@mrmidnight32]

I hate when people I work with or shoot with talk about bringing their old shit like that. Then they come back and talk about all the “junk” and trash that’s out there. And how bad it’s getting 🤦‍♂️

[@MrJafeica]

Very nice informative video. About 15 years ago I bought a remington model 7. light deer gun 18 1/2 inch barrel I choose the 7mm-08. Because it was more accurate than a 308. Now we are down to 6.5 and 6 mm. My wife will kill me if I buy another gun. Kuddo's to you for a good and easy to follow presentation. Ihor

[@charleswittmer2477]

I use the mod 7 in 7mm08 as my texas stand gun because it is small. a long time ago my first deer gun was a browning blr in 308. it is also a good stand gun but the recoil is a little more than I like, although I shot it for 10-12 years. I loaded 30 cal 110 grn carbine bullets with 53 grn of 748 for many years to shoot almost I hole. it amazed my shooting friends. that is a very thin bullet for anything except whitetails. I quit using it when we got into hog control but it did kill a boar at about 40 yds I had mounted. Most of our shooting is less than 100 yds but occasionally it worked well out to 150 yds. I also have a mod 7 custom shop 257 Roberts that in my opinion is a very good cartridge for hunting texas whitetail. If I hit a shoulder it is a bad shot, even on hogs. Shooting paper is a completely different type of gun though and so should the cartridges be also. My second rifle in about 1971 was a rem adl in 243 with a redfield widefield in 2x7 for 202.00 at kmart and he let me pay it out. That rifle shot a lot of deer. Chest cavity deer shots with the 243 got to be a problem looking for the dead deer though. I have big guns also but recoil was never something I wanted a lot of. I may have 5 6.5x55 guns I like. As I grew older shot placement got a lot more important and the calibers got smaller. the 7mm08 is just the gun I settled on for convenience but 223 and head or neck on bucks, shots makes sure you don't have to look for the animal. I agree bigger bullets do a better job on humane body shots on animals. but this is a paper shooting thread.

[@jonnydcan9482]

I would have liked to see how the 7mm-08 compares to the 6.5 & 6 mm family

[@meccastreisand2722]

+JP811931 With 168's, it compares pretty well but the increased bullet weight needs a bit more powder capacity to achieve the same results. To get the big BC's that 7mm offers you need to get up to the heavy end of the bullet weight spectrum. With a Berger 180 launched at 2550fps you're looking at just over 1300yrds before it goes subsonic. With a 168, just under 1300yrds at 2650fps muzzle velocity. Stepping up case size a bit, with a .284 Winchester you can get it up to 2800fps with the 168 which will take you deep into 1500yrds+ supersonic. The 180 actually only gets around 1400 and coin from the 7mm-08 case. To go much further you need more case capacity which would end up in a magnum. As with all things, more powder = more overbore = reduced barrel life.

[@jonnydcan9482]

meccastreisand yea the reason i was asking is bc i own a 7mm'08 and was trying to find a reason to get a 6.5 or 6mm setup

[@meccastreisand2722]

JP811931 There's no need. 7mm is a fantastic long range calibre with long barrel life and plentiful choices of projectile. 6 and 6.5mm are nice but IMHO 7mm is better at everything at the price of increased recoil and powder consumption. 6mm has lower barrel life than I was ever comfy with. 6.5 is brilliant but component selection isn't quite as broad as 7mm and barrel life is marginally lower. If you're looking for a reason, "I want it, I want it, I want it!" usually works for me. I use all 3 in competition and they all work where I use em'.

[@jonnydcan9482]

+meccastreisand yea I think thats what i was looking to hear from somebody that actually competes...my 7mm-08 is a sako A7...and i was scratching my head on weather to buld a 6.5 rig and drop it in my cadex defence chassis that my 223 is in right now...but if its like u say...if 7mm-08 works...i dont mind a muzzle break...its just gonna be hard to find a nice chassis or stock for it

[@meccastreisand2722]

+JP811931 Matter of fact, right now I'm waiting on a 7mm-08 barrel to replace a .308 barrel on one of my match guns. If you can't find a chassis, glass bedding can do wonders.

[@emburgess7186]

Glad I seen this. I was thinking about a 6.5 barrel but no anymore due to life..

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Barrel life at 2500-3000 is pretty solid and that's assuming you're competing with it and running it pretty quickly. If you're just hunting, etc you could see barrel life of double that.

[@toddwilliams4184]

Cool vid I would like to see this with a 7mm 08

[@thetruth3768]

7/08 WOULD BEAT THEM ALL PLUS HAS LESS RECOIL

[@thedodob1rd]

@@thetruth3768 6x47 and 6.5 x47 have less recoil.

[@RC-bl2pm]

Boy that's really splitting frogs hairs. The difference between a .260 remington and a 7mm-08 is insignificant.

[@ClayBlasdel44]

BC-Ballistic coefficient is everything. I haven't looked at the BC numbers in a long time but the best BC's start at 25,26 & 7mm. 120-140 grains. The 30 cal doesnt catch up until 200 gr. as I recall.

[@bobbyjorogers4937]

Now you have a new 6.5 PRC .

[@naniabusinesses]

The replacement barrel cost is typically in the $200 range. That only adds about $0.04 per round to 6.5 over NATO. For me, the B.C. of the 6.5 is worth the reduced barrel life. You can get good deals on any cartridge, you just have to know when to buy them.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Most hand lapped barrels from Krieger, Bartlein, Hawk Hill, etc run $300-350 plus install. You might find a pre-fit barrel for a savage for less.

[@naniabusinesses]

Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC Even it were $400 that's still only $0.08/round. People think replace barrel and panic unnecessarily. There are many other gun parts that are more problematic and expensive to repair/replace. I still stand by my comment.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Agreed. The barrel is a consumable item and replacing it shouldn't be something to fear. If you shoot enough and require a certain level of accuracy then you have to plan to rebarrel periodically.

[@naniabusinesses]

Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC I found a source for AK12 variant receivers and was looking at www.ebay.com/itm/Wilson-Arms-308-4-Stainless-Select-Match-Barrel-Remington-700-Mauser-98-/122294873358?' for the barrel. Do you happen to know if the barrel throat (receiver insert) on these new AK's differs from the classic AK?

[@chuckfinley3152]

People have been arguing ad nauseum about ballistics since what, the 1600’s.

[@IHateYoutubeHandles615]

That's because ballistics have been evolving since they were invented.

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

@@IHateKZbinHandles615 Exactly , I am exited about the new 300PRC and I thought we were done with 30 cal stuff after the 6.5Creedmoor set the world on fire ! Who knew? They are all fun.

[@Heimdallr00]

Glad to see the .243WIN getting some favorable publicity... I've shot that caliber in a Remington 700 (26") for years and it is very versatile... With 55g boat-tails I see velocities over 4000 f/s, meaning windage corrections are rarely necessary, and with 105g boat-tails I see velocities right at 3000 f/s... 65g, 75g, and 90g offerings are also readily available... I also own .260REM (Remington 700, 24") and 6.5 Creedmoor (Ruger M77 Mark II, 28") rifles, but I gotta tell ya, the .243 is the most fun to shoot... If I needed to make a 1000 yard shot, I'd go with the 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Remington, but the.243 holds it own 500-700 yards.

[@recentlydeleted]

Unless you're shooting over 1,000 yards, then anything .243 and above will do what you need

[@ts7yzf]

Excellent presentation, sir. Very informative.

[@Spidouz]

27:55 Well spoken!!

[@mariusnortje8259]

From South Africa...Excellent, interesting and much appreciated information. After shooting 30-06 for so many years, I'm planning on getting a new caliber for hunting and playing ie. unofficial competitions. After much research on the internet, Iv'e decided on 260 Remington. Barrel life is a big plus for me, due to our money here being worthless at the moment. I don't want a .308, as every second person down the street owns one...Lol!

[@solostyle2279]

Marius Nortje I harvested a 4 point bull this season with my 243 1 shot he ran 89 yards and expired.Shot placement is key and yes at 500-600 yards my rifle will produce 4-5" groups.

[@mariusnortje8259]

I'm thinking of getting myself a 260 Rem, but for some reason people in SA don't like them so much. The other choice is a 6.5 x 55 Swedish. Same ballistics as the .260 Rem, but more versatile when reloading. Nothing wrong with the .243 though. I love the .243. My father in law has one, and I have shot a flower at 100meters(sub moa) with a standard Tikka. I just wanna be different, that's why I want to go with a 6.5mm. Barrel life is another factor I'm considering. The value of our money(Rand) have fallen so much that we in shooters in SA just can't afford replacing barrels all the time...

[@Heath3250]

So the cycle is going back to a .243 like it was years ago? Funny how all things come and go and come back again.

[@charleswittmer2477]

wonder when a young person will pick up a 257 Roberts and try the new bullets and powders.

[@thetruth3768]

JUST PROVES HOW RIDULOUS ALL THE NIT-PICKING IS.

[@colsoncustoms8994]

caps lock much haha?

[@philipk8314]

@@charleswittmer2477 I'm 25 and looking for a one. Already got my cases 😊

[@Plainsimple67]

@@charleswittmer2477 A .257 ACKLEY IMPROVED. 😉👉

[@mikeswierbut9546]

Very nice job Bryce. Please keep the videos coming.

[@CAGuns]

Solid video!!

[@theshootindutchman]

very good KZbin article and information! Thank you for your work and doing this for the rest of us. The one thing in retrospect that I wish could have been done is using the 6.5 Creedmoor as a specific round because of the huge popularity of this round for many of us. Specifically I would like to have seen the reloading cost comparison between .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. The reason being that none of the rounds compared to the .308 in your comparison are available for purchase over the counter. A comparison of the 6.5 Creedmoor to the point 3:08 in the realm of reloading would be very valuable to us neophytes because reloading is the only way that the 6.5 Creedmoor could be a viable option financially. If a person buys .308 in bulk for example, it is not uncommon to find the FMJ rounds at gun shows 4 under $400 per thousand, to be used as practice ammunition to be sure. The best price I have ever found for a single box of 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition is $22 for Hornady 140 grain, 20 rounds per box. as I am unaware of 6.5 Creedmoor in bulk ammunition, we are talking about over $1,000 per thousand rounds, so reloading would be the only option for most of us.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

+Ross Spoelstra we'll keep in mind that our channel is focused on precision longvrange shooting and "bulk" anything doesn't really fit in the same category. If you're shooting bulk ammo then you're probably not worried about precision & accuracy and therefore the creedmoor really isn't a good option. We have bulk .308 primary because it's also a military round and manufactured in bulk. For folks that are more focused on precision & accuracy the .308 & 6.5 creedmoor are both very reasonable cost wise for good factory ammo. Typically Federal Gold Medal match 175 gr .308 ammo is between $24-28 per 20, similarly both Prime or Hornady precision ammo for the creedmoor is also $24-28 per 20. The difference is the creedmoor stay supersonic further and therefore retains its precision to greater distances. Does that help?

[@theshootindutchman]

Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC yes it does help and answer my question, thank you very much and keep up the good work!

[@BruceWayne-xu5bj]

Just a blanket comment, not to anything or anyone in particular. It's true that military methods and long range equipment is a good baseline, but by far not the best to mirror. The military unfortunately is limited to so much logistically, and to get new things to be pushed down the pipe takes a lot of process and funding with inevitably takes awhile as they try to modernize their equipment. With that being said, "I" have never believed that any particular caliber is or even projectile is less or more superior then the other as they all have a purpose. Everyone's criteria of shooting varies in the civilian and even the same can be said between different paramilitary organizations. Cost, efficiency, mission, laws, long range, short range, training, environment, external ballistics, terminal ballistics, the best of both terminal and external, pinking, availability. I can go on all day. I can reload a .300 wm or a .308 to have better bc and over all ballistics as well as apply the right equipment to manage the recoil vs. investing in 6mm, 6.5 creedmoor etc. (in example), but i have the equipment and knowledge to do so vs. some just wants to grab a box from the store, get some dope and shoot ELR, which is more than fine. Barrel life, is important too, I've found that magnums wear arguably very fast as well. Just some opinions for whatever its worth!

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

+Bruce Wayne listen up folks...that is how you leave a comment! Boom! Well done sir.

[@GeorgiaBoy1961]

It is commonly assumed by lay people that shooting technology advances happen in the military and filter into civilian life, but that is often not the case. As often as not, the civilian side drives innovation, which is then acquired by the military once it is thoroughly proven.

[@jamesduncan1488]

Great video about caliber abilities/selection related to LRS. I haven't looked up the down range energy of the listed rounds. I use the 185 Berger VLD out of my .308's and 300 WM for LRH deer and elk. By the way you guy's rock. I hope to make it out next year to get me a few stickers.

[@TommyboyGTP]

Thoughts and opinions on the 7mm-08?

[@smoakngun]

Excellent Cartridge! Mild recoil, flat shooting and will take down an elk if need be. It's also the easiest to find in factory ammo if you don't reload.

[@JPE_DRAEB]

6.5 Creedmoor factory ammo is getting easy to find now. So how do you compare the 7mm-08 to the 6.5 CM?

[@smoakngun]

The 6.5 CDM has better ballistics. That being said the 7mm-08 handles much heavier bullets. They are both great rounds and like the 6.5 more and more as time goes by.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

I dont' have any personal experience with it so I won't go out on a limb and give advise or opinion on it. I would recommend reading up on it on accurateshooter(dot)com. My understand is that it's a great round, especially for youth and ladies due to the milk recoil. Performance wise it's capable of shooting excellent high bc 7mm bullets but the speeds aren't great so you lose there. But once again I don't know enough to really field an opinion.

[@LRRPFco52]

One of the biggest challenges with 7mm-08 is that there is no target ammunition available that I know of. There are scores of options for hunting ammo, but no target loads. Recoil feels like a .308 to me as well. I like it, load for it, but it isn't a competitive cartridge in PRS. I don't know of any of the top shooters who use it.

[@rideswift]

Agreed!! 308 is a brick. I only own 1 and only got it because its a Kimber LPT with Huskemaw scope and I got a great deal on it. 6mm - 7mm are my favorites. Infact my Savage .243 varminter, M98 custom 6.5x55 swed, and my Rem 700 .270 are my go too rifles these days.

[@TOBORE8THMAN]

You're handicapping the .308 bullet by using a 168 grain projectile. You should have chosen a .308 bullet of equal/similar bullet weight. Perhaps a 150 grain .308 bullet which travels at 2900-2950 fps would have been a better comparison to the other lighter weight bullets.

[@brandonurbaniak6436]

+TOBORE8THMAN He isn't handy capping the .308 at all. If he pick a 150gr bullet gives a BC of around.415 in reality a 168gr bullet such as an AMAX or BTHP will have a higher BC which will cause the bullet to retain velocity and energy over distance. And actually the 140gr is on the heavy side for the 6.5 caliber and the 105gr is on the heavy end of the 6mm bullet. Since he is comparing the high end of both the 6.5 and 6mm really he needs to compare the 178gr bullet vs a 168gr, but his presentation was spot on Hornady factory loads with elevation the 150 gr bullet wins by about 2-8 inches of elevation at a given distance but at 1,050 yards the 178 bthp surpasses the 150gr bullet in elevation. 178gr bullet= 447.5 inches of elevation and th 150gr bullet= 456.3 inches But at just 150 yards the 178gr bullet suprpasses the 150 in wid drift. Full value wind at 10mph 308 150gr traveling 2800 fps .415 BC 150 yards 1.8 inches 200 yards 3.3 inches 300 yards 7.6 inches 400 yards 14 inches 500 yards 22.9 inches 600 yards 34.6 inches 700 yards 49.3 inches 800 yards 67.4 inches 900 yards 89.3 inches 1000 yards 114.9 inches full value wind at 10 mph 308 178gr traveling 2600 fps .535 BC 150 yards 1.6 inches 200 yards 2.8 inches 300 yards 6.4 inches 400 yards 11.8 inches 500 yards 19.1 inches 600 yards 28.5 inches 700 yards 40.2 inches 800 yards 54.4 inches 900 yards 71.3 inches 1000 yards 91.3 inches So in the end speed doesn't mean everything....

[@basedjorts]

+TOBORE8THMAN The lighter 150 grain .308 bullets would actually perform worse than the 168 grain bullets. The 150 grain has a worse ballistic coefficient than the 168 grain. It would lose velocity much faster, drop more and drift more over the same distance as the 168 grain.

[@TexanUSMC8089]

+Brandon Urbaniak Well Said

[@Tanglerwr]

+TOBORE8THMAN According to Ballistics Explorer the right 150 gr bullet has a significant advantage over a 168 gr BTHP. Ballistics Explorer list the BC of the 168 gr BTHP at 0.483 and a 150 gr Federal Trophy Copper with a BC of 0.469. With both zeroed at 200 yards, Ballistics Explorer lists the drop for the 168 gr BTHP at 1375 inches at 1500 yards. BE lists the drop for the 150 gr Trophy Copper at 1195" at 1500 yards. The 150 gr actually drops 180 inches less than the 168 gr bullet at 1500 yards. I realize one bullet is lead and one is copper, but if you were choosing bullets for maximum range shooting, would you not choose the better bullet regardless of material? Wind drift, again according Ballistic Explorer is very nearly the same with 130" for the 168 gr and 125" for the 150 gr. So again, the lighter 150 gr has an advantage.

[@brandonurbaniak6436]

+Tanglerwr can you tell me where you can find 150gr Trophy Copper bullets.... and you must be rich to be shooting a premium bullet for such as target practice etc.....

[@dwightlooi]

One thing that is worth mentioning is that not everyone will get a dedicated long range rifle. Most "new" long range shooters with the same rifle they use for a bunch of other tasks and dabble in long rang shooting occassionally -- at least until they find out if they really like the sport or not. The 308 has the largest selection of bullets for all purposes from 110s for varmints to 180s for larger game to 155 VLDs for 1000 yard matches or 175s for medium range work. You can get factory ammo any time and any where. There are also more barrels, brakes and other accessories to choose from. This is not to mention the fact that unless you are really into a particular class of shooting sport, most people don't like to have too many calibers in their arsenal.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Agreed but keep in mind too that you the length of each bullet (determine by the weight) will determine the proper twist rate needed to stabilize that size bullet. I don't you'll be swapping barrels so you can shoot both 110 gr and 168 gr right? Unless you're not too concerned about the overall accuracy of one of the other end of the weight spectrum. Like with everything there rarely is one single tool that will work well for the entire spectrum of tasks.

[@dwightlooi]

Actually, unless you custom order your barrels you generally don't have much of a choice these days... Most of the "stocked" barrels are 1:10 these days which are best for the 168s and 175s. Good luck finding a 1:12 barrel these days. That, BTW, is just fine for both the 168 or 175 SMKs, as well as the 155 TMKs which are just as long as the 175s (actually a smidgen longer). You see, mass actually doesn't matter at all in determining the optimal twist rate only the length of the projectile and the velocity matters. BTW, the 125s and 110s shoot OK with the 1:10 barrels. Not hard to get into 1~1.5 MOA with them in a gun that is nominally a 0.5~0.75 MOA performer with the right loads. Does it matter? Sure it does. Is it horrible? Not really. More than enough for Heavy Metal 3G matches. And, yes, I know people who shoot their 20" 308s because, well, that's what they have!

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Dwight Looi That's why I listed as Weight (length)

[@Kachok80]

By my math you are wrong about the 6mm vs 6.5mm A 105gr A-Max launched at 3000fps goes subsonic at aprox 1450yd while a 140gr A-Max 6.5 launched at only 2800fps should stay supersonic out to 1600yards, but the advantage does not end there, in a 10mph crosswind at 1,000yards the same 6mm will drift aprox 81 inches while the 6.5mm drifts only 70. For those who shoot more then just paper the 6mm only retains 454 ft/lbs at 1,000 while the 6.5mm is still delivering over 700ft/lbs and almost 40% more mass on target. Since I hunt with mine as well as long range shoot I choose the 6.5mm but mine is the superb 6.5x55 which you forgot to mention, it is a little faster then the 260 in a modern action. I have run the math with numerous different bullet makes and the 6.5mm wins in nearly every case. Yeah you could end up getting +/-100fps with either one depending on your barrel but 3000fps and 2800fps are about the norm in my experience. If someone wants the little flatter trajectory they can load a 6.5mm with the 123gr A-Max (or Lapua) to 243 speeds with a slightly better .510BC (.547 for the Lapua) and you can get that in either A-Max or SST flavor depending on your target. I have been very pleased with the 6.5mm on deer and wild hogs, plenty of caliber/mass/momentum to inflict rapidly fatal wounds, not quite as wide wounding as a 30 caliber but plenty even for less then perfect shot placement and considerably more the a little .243 cal.

[@Kachok80]

Simon Smith Yep 6.5s are my favorite all around, though I have been known to bring a 30 caliber when hunting larger hogs, not that the 6.5 ever let me down but when it comes to big pigs you cannot go wrong with a larger bullet.

[@Kachok80]

Simon Smith :) yeah .45 cals are great if you are hunting limited range, and 35 calibers are superb if you want a mix of range and impact. One of my next projects will be either a 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen, not that I need another gun but just because it is a more ideal tool then the 30-06 or 300 Win Mag for hog hunting.

[@Kachok80]

Simon Smith Great minds think alike :) I was thinking of a BLR because 35 caliber and lever action just seem to go hand in hand, just wish they made an oldschool Marlin 336 in 358 Win but I know the action will have issues with that pressure.

[@charleswittmer2477]

I agree that's why norma has forever made the 156 grn roundnose bullet for the 6.5 for shorter ranges.

[@poorfatman5317]

Enigma Cipher 6mm Remington is considerably faster then you said that's probably others better

[@jornjacobsen3945]

The drop is a function of BC and velocity. Use a 208 grain .308 AMAX with a BC of .65 out of a .300 Weatherby Mag at 3,000fps, and now a .308 bullet is comparable. Of course the trade off is recoil. I am recoil sensitive so I actually down load 6.5x55 with a 123 grain Amax, BC .510 @ 2,605fps, and duplicate the useful trajectory of 7.62 NATO with the 168grain BT. The recoil is so low that it is easy to see the bullet strike though the scope. Therefore, no spotter is required....

[@Overit5000]

100% nailed it. While the 6 family might be ballistically superior at range, it isn't practical for military. .308 is cheaper and punches bigger holes in flesh >800yds. While snipers engage past 8 with .308's all day long in the field, the .338 has jumped in SOF popularity to pick up that slack between .308 and big .50 anti material rifles.. Plus barrel life decrease in 6mm's will make DOD accounts cringe, almost 4x less barrel life = 4x more armor expenses.. Now let's take into account the libraries of information on military sniping using M11LR and .308 WIN. You'd be revamping every sniper schools curriculum and instructors themselves would have to learn ballistic specifics. That means more shooting, more ammo, more barrel changes, more money. Introducing a new cartridge like the 6 family isn't practical. Plus, like you alluded to, which one causes greater blood loss? What's a 6.5mm do against armor? THANK YOU for making a video to help show people the difference steel VS people

[@Overit5000]

VERY thorough video. Well done!

[@LRRPFco52]

.308 doesn't have very impressive terminal performance at distance, especially M118LR. Barrel life is a large consideration for training and trigger time, but the effective range of .308 is a real constraint. Most distances with it are well within the ones civilians would think are the norm after reading fictionalized novels and embellished accounts. After shooting it and watching it through the spotting scope, you immediately see it isn't a good long range cartridge unless you consider 600 and in long range.

[@danstuehser2373]

LRRPFco52 600m and in...come on man

[@GeorgiaBoy1961]

While the venerable .308 Winchester isn't an "ideal" LR cartridge, many professionals (Army, Marine, etc.) who have "been there, done that" recommend it as a great cartridge to start off with in terms of learning about interior, exterior and terminal ballistics. Moreover, what one defines as "impressive terminal performance" varies a great deal depending on circumstance and who you are dealing with. A well-designed .308 Win. load, using a suitable LR bullet (projectile) with a decent B.C., is capable of 1,000 yard + performance, not merely 600 yard performance. And in really skilled hands, you can extend that to 1200 yards - if you have the right rifle and load for it. SSGT Jim Gilliland, U.S. Army, made a "kill" of an Iraqi insurgent at 1250 meters - or roughly 3/4th of a mile - using a rifle chambered in 7.62x51 NATO (.308). Is that typical LR performance for a .308? No, but his experience does demonstrate that it is possible to stretch out the .308 well-past what is commonly assumed. Service rifle match competitors routinely shoot to 1000 yards using 190-grain SMK BTHPs. Now that Sierra, Hornady, Berger and others are coming out with higher BC .308-caliber projectiles, those distances may also be extended in the near future.

[@raymondhollingsworth3643]

JP Rognvald You underestimate the military. It does not matter what is practical only that it works till they relearn the lesson or start over all together. Case in point-The Davey Crockett nuke firing recoiless rifle. Look it up

[@Dibs2]

Excellent, informative video

[@tucanman9775]

243 fire ball

[@ru2yaz33]

A family friend used to be sniper said the two calibers he used was the 30-06 and .50 bmg. I've been interested in long distance shooting and currently have a .243 and .270 wsm...

[@standish92k]

+Ru2yaz What time frame did your friend serve for?

[@Spidouz]

21:01 Ooops... not sure there's anything left from the elk with a 30mm (j/k) :D :D

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

+Phil Smith Oops

[@Rprecision]

I think the big take away at long range in the angle of attack. When it comes to 6MM and 6.5MM they are coming into the target at a much flatter trajectory making those unknown range targets MUCH easier. As you said a much larger margin of error.

[@Patton243]

243 for life bitches. Most underrated cartridge in the USA. You can shoot deer, varmints, and take it out to 1k if needed. And Lapua makes brass for it too.

[@hibco3000]

Amen

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Amen. On accurateshooter(dot)com George Gardner of GA Precision says it's a top choice if not the best choice inside 1000 yards. 6mm is excellent.

[@charleswittmer2477]

It is interesting how a person says 6mm when he is really talking about the 243, the 6mm to us old guys is really a 6mm cartridge that is about 200fps faster than the 243 because it is a different case and doesn't fit in a standard short action rifle. when you say 6x47 you are limiting the 6mm to a smaller case to fit the ar I assume which is a limited case size than a size for the bolt action real long range rifles. The Ackley improved cartridges squeezed a little more out of the 260 and the 6mm to make them even more efficient. I have migrated to semi autos because I really only use my guns for hunting and one hole is a dream. the only gun I have for my 6mm is a semi auto rem although I do have a 22-250 and a 243wssm Olympic arms ar but keeping the cases is very hard in semi autos when hunting so I refrain from shooting the 243 wssm ar. Brass catchers on these 3000fps guns melt when the necks settle on the mesh.

[@Jaygorski]

But then George went to something a tad better.

[@scolarelli]

Really nice. Very objective and informative.

[@TimKollat]

I think the 6.5 and 7mm bullets are the two best for any kind of shooting..long range, hunting..etc Its just the 308 is so popular because everyone thinks that whatever the military uses is the best ever. The 308 is great but the 6.5 is definitely better in every category and will take down any animal the 308 will

[@nicoby309]

Wrong. The vast majority of 6.5 or 7mm bullets will not take down the same game a .308 can. Most 6.5mm cartridges won't support bullets above 140 grains and only a few like the 6.5mm Swede can do 160grain projectiles. Compare this to the .308 that has a wide selection of bullets weighing up to 240grains(yes seriously). The 6.5mm bullets are better penetrating compared thanks to their awesome seasonal ballistics but also shed less mass and deform less than .308 bullets. This makes them shittier at taking down certain types of game because the terminal performance simply isn't there. It over penetrates and expands less. For big game, you really do need bullets 170grains or heavier to really make a difference and legally 150grain bullets won't cut it hunting big American game for example. This and subsonic performance is the only downsides to the 6.5mm or 7mm(most, not all) cartridges. They still remain much more efficient and arguably better overall.

[@billchapman6361]

142gr ablr in my 264 mag expands over 2× dia recovered from quarter shot on whitetail at 536yrds with a 71% weight retention

[@billchapman6361]

my 300 doesn't do much better but kicks the crap out of me .plus dropped a 397lbs boar in his tracks with 264 @100yards devastating wound its about what u prefer ,140 gr 6.5 is a good elk bullet I speak from experience from all calibers

[@billchapman6361]

matter of fact when using the same style bullet I can't tell the difference in terminal ballistic between a 150 gr 270,150gr 7mm ,or 180 gr 308

[@reignick1133]

Not gonnah argue the versatility of 6.5 or 7mm as that would be pointless , they just work and work well. but the reason for the popularity of .308 isn't because of mall ninjas trying to emulate the military ( well not always ) it's because like .30-06 the round is ubiquitous , it's everywhere it's available and it's not wallet killing expensive. Sure you'll get the tacticool 'tards but honestly they are in the minority as far as the demographic of shooters go it's really down to there's a metric ton of data and almost as many good loadings commercially available for the 7.62 projectile , be it for hunting, medium to long range work, target shooting or actual defense service. NOTE: this does not by ANY means discount the validity of the aforementioned projectiles as I have seen .243 and 7mm 08 go from reliable but "niche enthusiast" rounds , to in this market a preferred and requested regularly stocked ammo. That and certain jurisdictions require .30 caliber or larger for humane hunting due to laws, this too will change in time and evaluation. We will see 6.5 , 6mm and 7mm rounds ( or rather the market acceptance / consumer demand. ) evolve to fit the niche in the market that both .30-06 and .308 fill but it's just going to take time and when it does we as the shooting community will have even more affordable readily available options to us. Really a win/win scenario in my book. TL;DR My course of action is : "Hold onto your .30 caliber rifle. There's nothing wrong with it at all and it works just fine, but consider the purchase of a 6mm 6.5 or 7mm barrel or upper for the future. In some cases this is a good excuse to start another rainy day project rifle."

[@thumperjeep]

I liked your video overall and feel it got the point across. 6.5 SAUM is experiencing 4,000 rd barrel life from many shooters and does it with very little recoil. Has to do with pressure, not velocity. Because of this I expect to see this cartridge pickup popularity very quickly if it gets market support by way of factory brass.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

+Russell Wells The 6.5 SAUM is awesome and now that GA Precision is making brass for it you're absolutely right that it's getting more and more popular. It basically topples all of these mentioned and I have heard of some excellent barrel life numbers but 4000 seems a little too remarkable. I've read up on it and George Gardner of GA Precision claims to get 3000+ rounds out of their 6.5 saums. Im not calling his claim into question but sighting that he owns the most well know precision rifle building company in the US and his business is selling guns and when I compare his claim to that of F-Class and F-open shooters on forum posts, etc (just google 6.5 saum barrel life) they are seeing as few as 600-900 rounds down the tube before accuracy begins to dip to the point that they want to rebarrel. Keeping in mind that there are a million variables here. The f-open guys clearly stated they are running hotter loads but thats a huge spread between 6-900 and 4000. I think its safe to say that most of us would see somewhere between 1500-2500 depending on what accuracy benchmark you are considering and how hot you are running your loads. If the 6.5 SAUM were the end all be all you would see the vast majority of PRS competitors shoot it and last year there were not enough that were that it wasnt even included in the list on the precision rifle blog but yet a 7 SAUM was. Go figure. Its an awesome round though. Thanks for watching.

[@richdow6517]

6.5x55 Swedish.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Amazing round but it's a long action so it's in a different category.

[@PaulA-bv1rt]

Rich Dow love it.

[@Plainsimple67]

THE GRANDFATHER OF ALL THE 6.5'S TODAY.😉👉

[@sethrich5998]

Excellent explanation. I've recently been looking into long range competition and ran into most of these questions. An additional thing I would mention is rules. Some competitions may restrict a 308 class letting you be competitive for less money. I believe F Class has a 308 only division. I've really been interested in PRS although I think I'll start with the Gas Gun series since I already do USPSA and Tac Rifle/2Gun. I figure I can use the same rifle with just a different optic for PRS and still be fairly competitive without a ton of upfront cost. Eventually like to move into the PRS Production division. I've been eying that MPA Production rifle.

[@trappolaify]

308 the best

[@allanb2906]

Thanks for a brilliant in depth guide to the long range shooting options. As a UK shooter, who hasn't yet expanded into any the calibres you discuss, this provides much food for thought. However, civilian options for outdoor shooting here are quite limited, as are the distances open to us. Typically 500 - 600 yds is the max although there are a few ranges where 1000 yds is possible for civis. I guess that's why the 308 is so popular here with the many members of the various shooting clubs. The tight restrictions does mean that we don't have the problems that you discuss from discarded household items being shot up though. Nevertheless, I wish my fellow countrymen (and women) would take a leaf from your book and rekindle the patriotism for our nation, flag and service personnel.

[@neffofrog]

Shoot farther, not shoot further.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

*farther

[@thetruth3768]

SCHOOLS DISCONTINUED ENGLISH AS A SUBJECT DECADES AGO

[@Plainsimple67]

HOW ABOUT "FARTER"?😂

[@guloguloguy]

THANKS, FOR THIS VERY INFORMATIVE VIDEO TUTORIAL!!! [FYI: IMHO: YOUR AUDIO QUALITY NEEDS SOME IMPROVEMENT: (USE A GOOD MIC, MIXER, ETC., AS NEEDED)]

[@RemoteViewr1]

7 mm 08, ballistically superior to all three. Ahem.

[@devinharper3924]

You're right - 180g VLD, or ELD-X bullets are amazing but you'll want the 7mag for those.

[@LRRPFco52]

It's only superior to the .308 Winchester. The 6.5mm and 6mm rifles beat it, especially looking at recoil, wind drift, and drop. There isn't a lot of difference between recoil and muzzle blast with a .308 and 7mm-08. 7mm-08 is what .308 should have been in my opinion, but it isn't competitive in PRS.

[@segwolfxviii2919]

LRRPFco52 why is everyone so worried about the recoil of guns that already have minimal recoil

[@LRRPFco52]

It's not necessarily pain in the shoulder, but displacement of your sight picture. The more steady my sight picture is, the more data I can get from my shot when time is of the essence. I'm never holding the crosshairs on a TGT when shooting LR, unless there is no wind (hardly ever), so my reticle is offset into the wind with elevation dialed or held. If my rifle moves all over the place as the shot tracks to the TGT, it's very difficult for me to see where my impact is. This is why recoil is a major consideration for LR shooting if you're spotting for yourself.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Bingo.

[@Lawman-196]

Good old fashion M1A:) or 7mm for hunting.....but 6mm Creedmore is looking good. Great vid! Thanks brother!

[@batmandeltaforce]

That is why I chose the 6mm Remington back in the late 70s:)

[@NC_TRX]

AWESOME VIDEO GREAT COMMENTARY AND INFO!!!!

[@candelariosanchez273]

Great video very informational learned quiet a lot thx for sharing!

[@johnstewart8849]

This was really helpful to a .22 target shooter...peep sights at 25 yds..0.56” groups. I’m not sure WHERE you’d find 1,000 yards to safely shoot, but beyond 50, isn’t it mostly in the optics?? In terms of both money and “impacts.” One shooter said his scope was $3,000. Just walk CLOSER! 1500 rounds on a $500 barrel replacement.... I calculate that would be less than one month for me. In short, you guys are REALLY into this! I admire the precision, but I would never take a shot beyond 200 yards at any game animal. I’m a fan of biathlon, but your sport is the other end of the scale...high end.

[@Tanglerwr]

Hey man, great video, very informative, you do a great presentation. I meant to say that first but got carried away with trivia.

[@JohnDoe-wo5on]

I think this discussion should be seperated into three: hunting, target shooting and military/selfdefence. Focusing on the latter then there is absolutely no question that the caliber between 6,5 and 7 mm is FAR better than both 5,56 AND 7,62 mm up to and including medium range. The evidence is comprehensive and from many sources: The swedes did comprehensive testing and settled on 6,5 until for logistical reasons they were forced to settle on the inferior 5,56 NATO round. The British did the same and came up with the british .280/7 mm round for the EM-2. Independent developers settled on 6,5 - 6,7 mm rounds. And all were held back for political and logistical reasons. Afganistan proved yet again that an upgrade was needed. Just as the .338 Lapua Magnum did for long range shooting. Its time to face realities and bite the bullet so to speak, and transition into the better calibers for all military infantry weapons. There isnt ONE good caliber OR weapon for everything, sadly the military does not have the option civilian shooters have of choosing different platforms and calibers for different needs. So IMHO for that specific and limited context, then it comes down to the least bad choice...

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

Bingo. Good comment from someone who knows a thing or two. Thanks for watching.

[@jude.25]

Great information and well presented. I'll bet it was a little bit difficult to erase that marker board, though. Thanks for posting. :)

[@xx-pn4io]

Outstanding. Thank you.

[@HDSME]

I shoot 308 love it I also shoot 300 338 win mag and 30 06 They all have their place nice vedio

[@ChaskeJohnson]

Agree with trigger trash. People got the place my dad showed me how to shoot a 22 here in Montana closed to shooting. I found washer and dryers, tvs, engine blocks, and cans everywhere. We used to drive around up there in high school and our dads told us they were going to close it if it didn't stop. First they closed it to motorized vehicles. Then after they realized all the no driving rule did was put that stuff closer to the road. They finally put up a "no target shooting" sign, people shot it. Bring a rake and a garbage bag with you. Have some class guys. We are very lucky to have public land. Also quit shooting plastic buckets with tannerite. Where do you think that goes? Thanks for the videos

[@jacobridgedell2096]

Nice video, glad you touched on stability being the limiting factor of these cartridges however in my experience and according to my ballistic calculator the transonic ranges are a good bit shorter than the ones you gave. Still loved the video, very well put together.

[@LongRangeShootersofUtah]

+Aaron Ridgedell We have thin air due to our high altitude here. That could factor into it a bit but these were rough numbers.

[@vieuxacadian9455]

Imagine a 6mm projectile that's 170 - 200 grains , fired from a chopped 50 bmg shell casing . A structured barrel with a high temp ceramic coated throat . just imagine the potential .

[@FreeBayArea]

Respect the land as much as we respect the flag. Because the flag represents the land. Well said. Don't litter guys.

[@pseudopetrus]

For learning, the 308 is perfect, not because it shoots flatter or bucks wind better, but in general it is super consistent, readily available, and reasonably cost effective. Learning means using scope dope to overcome bullet drop and windage.

[@gsxr1189]

IME when someone says that sometimes it's because they really want to shoot 308 because they think it's cheaper and alot of people are unaware of how much the price of 6.5cm ammo has come down. So I just want to drop this here incase it's useful to you. 6.5cm ammo at $0.52/round 2awarehouse.com/s-b-6-5creed-140gr-fmj-20-500/

[@pseudopetrus]

@@gsxr1189 It is still a little expensive in Canada.

[@gsxr1189]

@@pseudopetrus So I was right it is the price.

[@johnganshow5536]

Hunting for anything in big Bear country, I will take a well constructed 30 caliber 165/180 grain bullet any day...

[@BrianFrancisHeffron-1776]

Great. Just a great video and a great man.

[@HotQgav]

Good vid, thanks!

[@thebudkellyfiles]

Very well done. Very. Thanks.

[@CalaisRider]

excellent VIDEO. interesting INFO. Thanks for posting

[@JoeWayne84]

If you or shooting paper past 1000 yards the 6.5 is amazing hahaha but if you want to just have a gun that ammo is always going to be available /more affordable go 308 and don’t fall for the marketing

[@jimparker7778]

The .30 caliber is a great choice, but the 6mm and 6.5 have much better sectional density and ballistic coefficient. All share the same basic brass and are suitable for AR-15 platform rifles too.

[@YTkenntkeinenDatenschutz]

Thank you very much for your work on this superb Video! Now I`am torn between the 6mm and the 6.5mm. The 6mm is the better caliber for Long Range Target Shooting but with the 6.5 I`am allowed to shoot bigger game than roe deer here in Germany. Hmmmm.... decisions to be made...