Why All the Newfound Hate for Old School Dungeons & Dragons on The Gaming Gang Dispatch EP 1077

Jeff explores what's driving the sudden new wave of hatred toward old school Dungeons & Dragons, and the people influential to its early years, on this edition of The Gaming Gang Dispatch. Plus the latest tabletop gaming news from Raging Swan Press, Steamforged Games, The Merry Mushmen, Osprey Games, Mythmere Games, and more. Streamed live Wednesday July 10th, 2024.
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0:00 introduction
6:39 Tabletop gaming news
27:03 Random musings and a brief intermission
35:42 What's with the new wave of hate aimed at D&D's creators and creatives?
1:18:18 Wrapping up
Thumbnail artwork by David Trampier, ‘Emirikol the Chaotic’ for the AD&D 1st edition Dungeon Masters Guide
#TTRPGs #BoardGames #TheGamingGang

[@bjornh4664]

Regarding applying modern views on the past, the word you are looking for is "presentism". Wikipedia: "In literary and historical analysis, presentism is a term for the introduction of present-day ideas and perspectives into depictions or interpretations of the past. Some modern historians seek to avoid presentism in their work because they consider it a form of cultural bias, and believe it creates a distorted understanding of their subject matter. The practice of presentism is regarded by some as a common fallacy when writing about the past."

[@kevoreilly6557]

I find “gaslighting” works just as well. It is beyond ironic to a philosophical belief or putting yourself in someone else’s shoes is completely beyond the “progressive left” I’m 58 and until the mind 2010s I was defined by progressive left … that is no longer a label that fits and my beliefs haven’t changed

[@MP-uw1qc]

Everyone is prejudiced, whether about political beliefs, moral beliefs, height, weight, gender, sexual proclivities, skin colour! I started role playing in 1985 and I find that there is more racism and bigotry now than back then. Everyone is put in a metaphorical box. The idea that our beliefs now are perfect and won’t be looked back at in the future as different and wrong is ridiculous.

[@quantus5875]

Well said!

[@direden]

It's probably more accurate to say everyone is biased. Prejudice denotes negativity, condescension, and malice. In modern language biased usually refers to an inclination towards a certain view, without malice. But I will conceed that there are many prejudiced people who don't realize they're prejudiced. Even people who oppose racism can be prejudiced. Like you said prejudiced by religion, politics, etc.

[@andyaleman5456]

Marxists gain power by fighting against oppression. If no oppression exists, they invent it.

[@Arthineas]

Great video Jeff. I actually heard the opposite about what Gary Gygax was like . From what I hear he was always kind and happy to meet fellow gamers. He made them feel important. From my understanding it was kind of common that someone would show up at his doorstep and he would just pull out a game of some sort and play with them. Luke Gygax even talked about this. Gary loved gaming and interacting with gamers that much.

[@quantus5875]

I've heard some bad stories from the early 80s, but all the stories about him in the 90s and 2000s -- are like wow this guy was super nice. It's like this "redemption" happened. Yeah -- problem is that ALL of these stories -- both the good and the bad -- and people use these "stories" to paint a picture of the person -- when they never knew him.

[@Thegaminggang]

That's the time frame I'd heard from some people who'd run into him back when Gen Con was in Milwaukee. The tales were pretty negative. It's very possible he mellowed with age of course! ~ Jeff

[@quantus5875]

@@Thegaminggang Talk to the Troll Lords they worked with Gygax for many years before he died. They have absolutely nothing bad to say about him. Every C&C book pays tribute to Gygax. And they worked hard to honor the Gygax estate. Lots of KZbinrs that met him in the late 90s and in the early 2000s that met him always say how nice he was. And people always forget that Arneson and Gygax pretty much made up in the late 80s. Gygax even hired Arneson to write a few modules (really good work by Arneson) before Gygax was run out of TSR. Yes, the bad stories are from the mid 70s to around the mid 80s. It's a story of "redemption" I think -- Gygax was humbled when he lost control of TSR.

[@RedDiceDiaries]

Man, I was born in 1980 and I still wouldn't dream of telling anyone what life was like in 1984 😮

[@stephengilbert8166]

I feel old.... I was playing D&D in 1974 at the beginning... and wargaming some years before that too :-)

[@carlpalmer9406]

"Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy what has been invented or made by the forces of good."

[@Omenowl]

In other news human beings are flawed. I just find it odd that rather than trying to monetize 50th year to the maximum extent they are trying to alienate the people who have money. I would have put a 50th anniversary set that took all the white box in a limited collectors edition in a fancy wooden box for a lot of money ($500+) on hasbro pulse.

[@Will_GM_for_Food]

Let's face it: WotC's current disgust with old-school D&D is largely a marketing move. Most of us older gamers are unlikely to purchase any future editions of the game (especially after the OGL, Pinkerton, and "can't get out of the hobby fast enough" fiascos). As a result, they hope that moralistic pandering to younger gamers will keep them relevant. (Spoiler alert - It won't.)

[@WayneBraack]

@@Will_GM_for_Food think there's plenty of evidence to show that the very next group of players upcoming, that is the people that are 15 14 right now, are very much going conservative and they're not going to buy into this.

[@Will_GM_for_Food]

@@WayneBraack I didn't say it was a successful marketing strategy...

[@mikejay9838]

Nobody today even holds a candle to 1e. Nobody really wants to work hard anymore to produce a full-quality product; let's just slap together high-quality & slick artwork with some generalized rules with just enough substance for plausible affirmability of actual quality. I don't care what anyone says about TSR, they put actual blood sweat and tears into creating a full medieval world (yey, universe?) simulator and SUCCEEDED!

[@quantus5875]

Well said. It's interesting many people actually know the names Gygax, Anderson, Kuntz, Ward, Otus, Cook, Mentzer, Easley, Ellmore, etc... Ask me to name more than a few people that worked on D&D 5th -- and wouldn't be able to tell you. Ask me to name a single artist that worked on 5th Ed and wouldn't be able to tell you.

[@seanfaherty]

My guess is they are trying to discredit the old, fun, fast combat game to drum up business for the new,computerized, slow combat game that makes them rich.

[@DD8842]

Because things that make people happy are offensive to people. Don't feed the trolls children

[@bl00dywelld0ne]

Hey GG. Peterson's book is titled 'Playing At The World,' btw.

[@plissken2245]

Witch burning never really went away, did it? : )

[@Greg-jd9nu]

Can't monetize the previous editions, so throw some shade that way. Sad really

[@ronturner3598]

A world where virtual tabletops became the norm but Gary's 2e DMG flight rules haven't surged back into use, is truly a cursed reality.

[@Ars_Fabula_TTRPG]

I think a lot of folks like to feel “right” and they’ll get into an echo chamber and don’t realize they’re tilting at windmills.

[@roygoodman1077]

The people who were gatekept from our games were the people that punched us, stole from us, destroyed our belongings. The ones that were absolutely vile in their treatment of us. So, we did gatekeep the people who deserved to be kept from the hobby. Even out local FLGS began to gatekeep those vile kids by banning them from the store. Which was awesome because it made the store a safe place us.

[@willburton6622]

Osprey is making some great games - I really enjoy Undaunted Normandy, North Africa, and Stalingrad!

[@agilemonk6305]

Hey there Brother Jeff. Sorry to have missed the live. I’m going through the video now. Here’s to bumping the algorithm up. 😂

[@dungeondumbo]

Thanks Gary for publishing the greatest game ever! I started in 1981 and anybody who was into the idea of D&D was welcome and encouraged to join in. If anything roleplaying was the most inclusive community I knew. Now I find it very polarising and divisive and I blame companies like wotc for allowing employees to weaponise the game with virtue signalling and politics. Just pull up a chair, roll up a character and let’s play. If we get on and have fun we can game again. If not, no worries…take it easy, bye.

[@mborel]

Great video, I fully agree with you about this issue, it's really being blown out of proportion. I do have the book and the "criticisms" are more just context descriptions. Heck, even back then they knew they were pushing things a bit to far with the racy-ness of some of the artwork. What was the module recalled due to inappropriate art, Palace of the Silver Princess? And that happened in 1977, I think.

[@quantus5875]

Yes, it was B3 Palace of the Silver Princess. I actually miss some of the sexy art from the 70s and 80s. And it wasn't just D&D it was many TTRPG companies that did it. I don't think some of this art that is very tastefully done, would make it into WoTC's D&D -- the DEI crew would stop it. "Attractive female" -- we can't do that -- that's sexist. 😂 I don't think any of the Brom art would have ever made it.

[@user-ve2ff9wv1y]

I have 8 players in my west march, using old-school essentials and Shadow Dark as my DM guild. They love it.

[@Subcomandante73]

Some people are just dumb. Shocking that people living in the 70's had some attitudes that were prevalent in the 70's. This is why gatekeeping your game table is a really really good thing. Keep the drama folks away from your table. Been playing since 1983 :)

[@griselame]

Because they know 6e is flopping

[@matthewconstantine5015]

Beast from 20,000 Fathoms was one of the first monster movies I saw as a little kid (4 or 5?), and one of the ones that made me fall in love with movies and monsters. Saw you mention the Cubs. Fingers crossed, I'll be in Chicago in September and my wife & I are planning to catch a Cubs/Nats game. I'm not a big sports guy, but my wife is a huge baseball fan. She's never been to Wrigley Field. I think you're very right about bad stuff not getting called out in the past. I definitely saw a lot of bad stuff that would not fly these days. And it shouldn't. The fact that it's getting called out is a very good thing. The outrage factor is weird. How folks pick what to be upset by. Everyone upset with Lovecraft who mostly reserved his (very real) racism for his personal letters, while not saying word one about Bram Stoker, who jammed his published fiction with some truly horrifying racism. Most folks completely ignore the anti-Semitism of Patricia Highsmith or Agatha Christie. What makes folks decide one person's horrible behavior or opinions are worth raging about while someone else's are largely ignored? I don't have an answer. I mean, I can't stand John Wayne, and often use his racism as one of my reasons. Yet, I love Jimmy Stewart, and he was racist as hell. So, I'm as guilty of fickle outrage as anyone else. In no way am I discounting the stories of folks tell about other folks being upset, but 99.9% of the vitriol and thin-skinned reactions I see are coming from older gamers (of which I count myself) who seem to overreact to almost everything. They hear a story about someone making rules for a battle wheelchair, and they start having a tantrum, even though there's NOBODY making them put it in their games. Though you do get especially loud folks screaming from the rafters about all kinds of stuff, it often seems like off the cuff remarks about someone having racist views, or some piece of artwork being sexist, get blown way out of proportion, growing in the rage-filled retellings in the echo chambers of grognardia. Having grown up straight, white, and male in the whitest state in the country, I can attest to it being easy to simply be ignorant, without any particular malice. I had views that I can now look at as being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. As I grew up, met people who weren't like me, traveled outside of my hometown, met LGBTQ+ people, people of color...women, etc. I learned, matured, and grew as a human. It's what adults should do. I can be personally embarrassed by things I said or thought when I was a more ignorant young man, without falling into fits of self-hatred and finger pointing. And I'm sure I still make mistakes today. I remain a work in progress, which I think is something we all should be. I don't think a human should ever stop learning or trying to be a better person, no matter how old they get. I'm nearing 50, and believe myself to be a better man than when I was 25. If I make it to 75, I hope to be a much better man, then than I am now.

[@Thegaminggang]

It really is strange how people will let one thing go while crucifying something which is nearly the exact same. People too. I agree we're all works in progress and a vast majority learn and grow as the years pass. ~ Jeff

[@puente29712]

Watching via Memorex. Great video As always, great opinions, Jeff. 🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲😊

[@1stleveldmgames798]

Cult of the Cave Crickets!

[@quantus5875]

Great video Jeff, I thought your stance on this was a good one. Yeah, it's this weird DEI effort that's going on at WoTC. I'm all for diversity -- but yeah, the cover of the new D&D PHB is an example of where WoTC is going. Yes, I'm sure you've seen the cover. It's really bad. Yeah, I actually like D&D 5e -- but I play a lot of other TTRPGs -- so moving away from D&D is not a problem: I have Castles & Crusades, Pathfinder, RuneQuest, The Dark Eye, and Fantasy AGE as my go-to TTRPS in addition to a few OSR TTRPGs. So yeah -- all this WotC nonsense -- maybe time to completely move away from D&D.

[@roygoodman1077]

You should interview Rob Kuntz.

[@Giantstomp]

One recommendation I would give to people when it comes to all these quotes from the old guard of creators is to not take the quote that is lifted from an interview verbatim until you go read the interview and see the context in which it was said. I've seen a number of times where the quote is taken out of context. Keep in mind sarcasm does not come across in print worth a shit. One said quote used by someone recently, to show someone as sexist, is taken out of context. Some online personalities and authors are using this controversy like click bait to stir up more attention to their KZbin channels and books. Now, before people start lambasting me, there are instances where old school creators show lack of tact and or blatant derogatory stuff was printed. Of course there was, hell it still happens today so to think it never happened is silly. I agree with with WOTC printing something at the beginning of the book stating the changes in the industry since then, I totally disagree with their verbiage. And you never call out someone by name unless you are looking to discredit them. And so long as there are people out there willing to make something out of nothing, it makes it a lot harder to recognize the stuff you need to give proper attention to because of all the background noise. People need to realize there are people with agendas pushing forward misinformation on both sides here. Frankly, people need to focus their energy some place else.

[@muaadeeb9625]

No school, like the Old School. Props!

[@albertcapley6894]

If being a racist is defined by holding racist views then, quite frankly most people are racist. That makes people uncomfortable I suppose, but one must come to grips with the fact that racism is not defined by a person's intentions but rather by their actions. One can be unintentionally racist, and arguably a huge chunk of it is like that, in the past, today, whenever you like. Colloquially we tend to reserve the use of the term racist for those who are willfully (and usually outspokenly) racist ofc, ofc, but it's kinda like if you let me borrow your book, and through no intention of my own it gets damaged or destroyed somehow, the question isn't if I meant to let it happen, the question is: "when am I replacing your damaged book?" Even if one is dedicated to a more overt anti-racist stance (as opposed to a merely non-racist stance) one can still be racist, I would call myself an anti-racist, and yet I've still done a racism, not intentionally but I still done it, less than a year ago in fact. The goal here is self critique and reflection, basically I am to call myself out, especially if I intend to call out others, but it still works me that one points out this or that person as having been racist or bigoted in any way really, and there is this knee-jerk reaction for people to frame it as if that person is either a klansman or there's not a racist bone in their body. That's disingenuous to my mind, because even most racists are horrified by the Klan, as I was saying earlier (and there is a song I think) pretty much everybody is a little bit racist, whether they intend it or not. Does this mean orcs are racist and TTRPGs should move away from them? Honestly that answer has never changed; if they are portrayed as a racist caricature at a table you are playing at... and you stay at that table, you're part of the problem... otherwise, even if the creators DID intend the whole thing as a white supremacist allegory, that don't mean shit for my table, or yours, and especially if that is the case (which is unlikely) then one of the best things we can do is play the game and ignore those elements. Simple as, I know a lot of people like to blame leftists for all the drama in TTRPGS spheres of late but nothing wotc is doing is for us, if a person told me Gygax was shitty, I might listen to them or not listen to them depending on how lucid they sound, but when a corporation owned by an even larger corporation does it... where's the money going there? Who's getting paid for this? I stopped buying dnd products years ago because of how shitty wotc is as a company, my picket line goes back to 2008, even the pinkertons thing didn't happen until pretty recently on my calendar. It is kinda like with Lovecraft though: you can honestly ignore the racist descriptions and shit from his stories, and they still work without all that BS, same thing for dnd, even if that was somehow foundational in the early days.

[@nicholasrova3698]

You're tying yourself in a knot trying to complicate racism beyond what it is. Prejudice toward a group of people because of their skin color. Does this manifest in negligible ways (as all forms of prejudice do), sure. But this very minor kind of 'racism' you speak of has little to no impact, except in people who look for racism everywhere and in everything, or seek to be offended at the drop of a hat.

[@brentnorton1602]

I heard an interview about the front two pages about in the 50th book. I will not promote Wotc or spend money on this book.

[@MithraMax]

43:40-43:59: would be nice if you turned this into a Short.

[@Wraithing]

18:55 The Merry Mushmen are French - shipping across the 21 miles of la Manche (English Channel) used to work better before Brexit, now not so much. Price to Dover (UK) and Chicago was the same on the Kickstarter, despite an Atlantic crossing and four thousand miles of difference. - - - Interesting talk on the D&D politics of today trashing the past to control the present and future. Really, in terms of all the 'isms' it's amazing D&D and many of the RPGs of the day were as progressive, accepting and sensible as they were. Especially when considering the youth of their creators and how creating an RPG necessitated the creation of societies, nations and whole worlds - with only access to available printed books and encyclopaedias, not today's far more easily accessed Internet text, image and video libraries. Great mention of 'Paperclip' and the huge leaps forward in ubiquitous and essential technology after WWII. So many dodgy experiments by vile humans have made our contemporary world. By comparison, I'm certain the '70s and '80s TSR gang were paragons of virtue.

[@MarkCsigs]

I watched your video because I wanted to find out what all this "newfound hate" was, because I'm not hearing any ... and I still don't know. I don't doubt you have the experiences you have, but I've no idea where you're finding all this "hate". Local gamers? Game stores? Conventions? I follow a ton of creators on KZbin and Twitch and I'm not hearing any of this hate. All you ever attribute it to is "people are saying". I guess we just know different "people".

[@Thegaminggang]

I actually discussed where some of this new wave of bad blood originated due to the release of the recent history of D&D book and some claims within. The reaction of some old school gamers and former TSR employees have been to say claims being made about Gygax are downright lies. For you to comment I just attribute things to "people are saying" is pretty disingenuous since I pointed out where the claims of Gary Gygax being sexist, as well as original D&D creators/creatives were racist, are made. ~ Jeff

[@MarkCsigs]

@Thegaminggang okay! I just didn't get that "all this hate" referred to one book (that I dont own, haven't read, and dont intend to buy). I misunderstood and thought you meant it was more widespread. Thank you for clarifying.

[@Thegaminggang]

It's actually far more than that.The book is just what's been the latest spark. The allegations of racism, sexist, and more against the creators of D&D have been going on for a while. If you follow 5E you must have heard some of this in the past.

[@robozombie9026]

All the hate is coming from the losers that see nothing but racism and try to put it where none exist. They are people that are never happy and if you are will do everything in their power to bring you down and destroy what you love.

[@guldcat1619]

The reason is because old school style gaming and its various systems are gradually taking away market share from WotC and so must be attacked and, given that WotC only hires a certain type of person, the only method of attack they know is lying, rewriting history, and shame and collective guilt. If they had talent in the house, they would go on the attack by making a better product, but that's not something WotC has the ability or the resources to do.

[@n.ludemann9199]

afaik the scandal was that Frank had rescued a manuscript of Temple of Elemental Evil (or another classic module, I am not sure...) after Gary Gygax was fired and The Dragon Lady had thrown away many manuscripts. Frank did not turn it over to Gygax at once, but kept it for decades. Recently when he needed money for medical treatment, he tried to sell the manuscript, and was heavily criticized for it. So he handed over the manuscript to Gygax Estates. Or something like that... I did not look it up though, but it is what I recall...

[@direden]

WotC is trying to steward the brand and celebrate the 50th anniversary. (I'm not saying they're doing a great job.) I don't think they're trying to shit on Gary. However, if you're talking about Gary you have to acknowledge that he was sexist. And TSR did publish Orcs of Thar. Which was certainly problematic. The problem nowadays you can't have a nuanced conversation... because people are so reactive. It's fair to celebrate the creation and creators of the game. But it's also fair to acknowledge that they weren't perfect people. Context and nuance is important.

[@yourseatatthetable]

Hmm..

[@deeebeee1758]

Hey, man. I am still watching this most mornings with my coffee, though I wish I'd been watching the stream last night. What you are describing is outrage marketing. It's a way of marketing something, usually using social media, by getting a small group angry in order to capture the attention of a larger group. This could be a textbook case. It seems to be the only arrow WOTC has in their quiver now. Basically, they are exploiting the TSR years, in a counterintuitive way, by pointing out all the flaws, rather than doing what would make sense to most people, which is to celebrate the history of the game from year dot to now including the TSR years. A few people get mad, but, the gambit is, more people get interested. It is very cynical. Virtue signalling by corporations was a form of outrage marketing. Fly the rainbow flag and get the chuds frothing, but gain a larger audience for Dr Pepper or AIG Insurance or some other kind of corporate crap. There is history, there is context and then in another category altogether there is marketing. Thanks for the vids, man, I love them.

[@Thegaminggang]

That's it! Outrage Marketing! That's the phrase I was trying to remember last night. I knew there was a term for it and had it on the tip of my tongue. Thanks! ~ Jeff

[@vorpalbite4745]

CULTURE WAR. The classic struggle new generation vs older generation

[@Xpun-oi2zz]

New ? Naaa. they've hated for a long time now. Fuck wotc

[@ArcaneCowboy]

People got sick of the OSR players and their attitude that they are somehow playing a better game.

[@galinor7]

They are. I think my games are best. Obviously, or otherwise I wouldn't be playing. them, would, I. If I thought your games were best, I'd be playing your games. It's kind of simple really. 5th players think 5th is best. Uggh what an attitude! Personality I don't like 5th.

[@shallendor]

I was called sexist by a woman, because i spent a few extra seconds while leaving a store to hold the door open for her after i had held the door open for a guy that was entering as i left! They do live in a sexist country, since the U.S. Declaration of Independence declared that "All Men are Created Equal!", but say nothing about women! : ) D&D was played by people that didn't fit in society, Nerds, Freaks, Geeks, and those of us that were into Band, Choir and Theater! D&D is Satans Game, and WotC willing bought it! : ) Satanists of the Coast? Satan is what made D&D popular! WotC did fire at least 1 bisexual nerdy woman!

[@itchytoes4412]

Is this newfound hate? Thought the hate has been there for a few years already.

[@Thegaminggang]

It's a new wave of it.

[@itchytoes4412]

@@Thegaminggang interesting, I tried 5E but didn’t care for it much, I’d still play 1st and 2nd edition anytime though.