WHY ARE HELICOPTERS SO EXPENSIVE TO RUN??

[@robertclifton7710]

I'm 73 years old and know i'll never learn to fly a helicopter but love your video and living vicariously through them and have watch all your KZbin videos , Thank you for such a positive force.

[@ahcmit]

Derek Piggot was 80 and still flying competitions, you are never too old. You just need a P2 safety pilot

[@bertjesklotepino]

@@ahcmit and perhaps a huge bag of cash?

[@richardcarr7702]

Yeah, me too. I have a zillion fixed wing hours (airline), but have always envied you guys. Your skill and your machines amaze me.

[@ahcmit]

@@bertjesklotepino Not at all he flew a K6 worth about 6k you can buy a fan para motorglider for 3k just look into it and see whats affordable failing that get an rc model

[@bertjesklotepino]

@@ahcmit True compadre. You can fly cheap if you want. Gliders, paramotorgliding, etc etc. BUT, i assume if you want to fly a helicopter, or even own one.... i assume you have to have a reasonable amount of cash. I wont say that it is completely impossible for many people. BUT, for a lot more people it is for ever and ever impossible, just because of the reasonable amount of cash. :) Btw, i already am an armchair pilot, with FSX but will get the newest version shortly. And i already have several rc models. BUT i also have flown a few hours, introductionflights so to speak..... and well, that is just something different. RC does not compare to actually flying yourself. Paramotorgliding or just a glider (perhaps with a small engine to launch yourself or whatever).... i think that is possible for me to do. Perhaps a ppl also, but its not just the bag of cash but also the amount of hours one needs to spend to keep it up to date etc.... Not possible for everyone unfortunately.

[@helifixer206]

Aircraft mechanics have a saying, "You know the only cheap thing about an aircraft? The owner.... I have worked on helicopters for over 20 years and I feel that I should clarify a couple things that he said in his presentation. "Infinite Life" parts are also known as "on condition" parts, this does not mean that they will last forever, "on condition" parts are subject to inspection, and if the wear, damage or defect criteria is exceeded they would need to be overhauled or scrapped depending on the manufacturers instructions. He explained the life on main rotor blades and rotating components very well though. I would also like to add to that for the composite Main Rotor Blades on his trainer, they may have "infinite life" but I have never seen a main rotor blade that lasts forever... I work on Airbus H125's (AS350B3e) and their composite Main Rotor blades have a 20,000 hour life limit, but I have never seen or even heard of a blade that actually made it to 20,000 hours. They don't have catastrophic failures, but one day, upon inspection, a defect will be discovered that is not repairable and then you are replacing a blade. The problem there becomes that you calculated the operating cost of that blade based on the 20,000 hour life, (AS350 blades are 45k each so $45,000 USD/20,000= $2.25/hour/blade), and if fails at say 10,000 hours then your operating cost effectively doubles and you didn't charge the helicopter out at the direct operating cost of 10,000 hours so that blade just cost you $22,500 USD... So 10,000 hours worth of value from that blade just came right out of the owner/operators pocket, not a good day to say the least. Plus then you are buying a new blade for $45,000 and paying someone like me to install and balance the machine... So on his training machine since it has "infinite life" blades operators normally don't calculate any operating cost to them and the manufacturer doesn't include that in their Direct Operating Cost (DOC) estimates. So you can really get caught with your pants down as an operator/owner because there was no budget planning in place for replacement, very high risk to say the least. I would rather see a reasonable time life on a component so that I can plan/budget for the replacement cost and I can be assured that most of the time parts will run their full time life. There is no such thing as "Infinite Life", it is just something marketing people say to con you into buying their stuff and it makes their DOC look better on paper when they sell it to you. I love working on and flying in helicopters but I would NEVER own one, care and maintenance is an endless expense and most parts are massively expensive. As the old saying goes, if it flies or floats it is cheaper to rent than to own...

[@helifixer206]

@@JE-ed6te Ah you know the one... Just trying to keep it PG for the audience. LOL

[@NETBotic]

Let me fly it and things will get much more expensive.

[@frankspavale9967]

Robinson blades and other components have a 12 yeas life or 2200 hours . For those who don’t fly a lot , you are buying a 12 year helicopter ... now that will be expensive per hour and after 12 years the machine I worth very little.

[@motorsrotors2127]

😂😂🤣🤣🤣😂

[@montgomerygray4390]

66505pt

[@lornasilver6706]

N why is it that I DOOOOO ACTUALLY BELIEVE U MY LOVELY lol omgoodness hmmm!!!!! XX loves yah

[@theophiri3870]

John ur gonna be dead before you hear the price 😂

[@scottstrang1583]

Awesome video. Thanks

[@williamcolt1073]

as a pilot that has only flown Robinsons I find them to be incredibly safe when operated correctly as well as maintained in the same manner, frequently i find places abusing them to their absolute limit and its concerning for me. I feel there needs to be a change in how these things are maintained, sure you can do the minimum and get max profit, but pilots definitely will be at risk . I think its a much better approach to have non limited components but a strict standard with a margin of error built in to what you can repair, because that increases inspections and decreases replacement parts decreasing overall cost.

[@cindygirlification]

I now understand another reason why we never got individual flying vehicles people predicted in the ‘50’s .

[@AGermanMan]

Wow - never occurred to me it could be that expensive to maintain and operate a helicopter. I love your channel and man, I would love to take the plunge at some point and realize a life long dream! Thanks for all your great content.

[@matsv201]

I would say one of the major issues with component wear of a helicopter is the collective assembly and really what it does. Not only does it have loads of tiny components with a lot of stress, it also stresses the blades quite significant. On top of that, a helicopter is pretty much always driving a very high power rating throw a shaft that is really not spinning all that fast.

[@richardcarr7702]

When I was a child in the 1950s, I was hooked on the Whirlybirds TV series. Been fascinated by copters ever since. Remembering The Cast From This Episode Of Whirlybirds 1957

[@philemonkoskei9512]

In Africa Kenya, very informative stuff from you,never had a helicopter ride before,but feels like Iam already in one when I listen to you.

[@kencohagen4967]

My father in law was an electronics engineer. He showed me how they rated electronic parts, which was basically what he’s talking about. He used 66% of a components failure rate to rate its use. If it failed when it was run at 100 watts he would rate it at 66% of that, or 66 watts. This provides a margin of safety for the end user.

[@tonykarlsson5609]

Been working a lot on the Cabri. Realy nice helicopter. Some child issues but they sorted them out in the end. The switch to the fully composite fan might be my fault 😏.

[@RoadRunnerLaser]

I fly an autogyro in the UK with a Rotax 912 powerplant. Every 5 years we have to replace all of the engine’s rubber components (all tubing, engine mount bushes, and carb diaphragms). I’ve just had a 5yr service done which cost around £2700. The rubber in the same powerplant on a microlight is replaced “on condition”. Microlight pilots love us when we throw away our rubber. They take our cast-offs and use them in their aircraft because they are generally still in very good condition. This time, I had most of my rubber hoses replaced with silicone ones which won’t need replacing in 5 years. Hopefully my next “rubber replacement” will be a little cheaper and will justify the additional cost of using silicone this time around.

[@RoadRunnerLaser]

Emmanuel Benjamin Mercado Rodriguez - For the most part, I agree. However, there are things that a heli can do which a gyro cannot, such as a zero airspeed hover (whereas we can only manage zero GROUNDSPEED hovers for which we require sufficient wind). We also cannot land vertically nor can we take off vertically, not even with jump takeoff. Jump takeoff will only get you off the ground vertically, we cannot continue to climb straight out. Helis do have their place, especially for such things as oil-rig transport, rescue, air-ambulance, etc. But... in terms of “bang for your buck”, initial outlay, fuel costs, maintenance costs, etc... Gyros are incredibly capable aircraft.

[@nks9694]

No, you aren't 'rambling'. Good insight to the rotor blade life limits. Didn't know about the concept of 'infinite' life limits on rotocraft. I deal with heavy transport cat acft everyday and my world is FILLED with limits. AMM, MEL, FIM......everything has it's limits. Your videos are the best. I'll get up there someday.

[@christopherbeddoe406]

I'm getting started in aviation and am justifying the expense of ownership by first getting a big chunk of money saved/invested. Returns on that big chuck of money will offset costs and I can use that investment account to cover expenses for the rest of my life. Basically, 100 hours a year in a small plane costs about $15k annually. (Not including purchase price) So I conservatively estimated I'd need to get $150-200k saved before purchasing. If I were going to do the same thing with a R22 I'd need closer to $400k.

[@leosoto4174]

Hi Misha...I love helicopters turbine or combustion but a little scare of altitude specially when the pilot bancks it. And I also love watching you videos.... you're really good explaining the overall

[@rbrtjbarber]

One big factor in the cost of parts, components, & complete aircraft is the premiums for product liability insurance. Back in the '80s, after some high-profile crashes & lawsuits, those premiums amounted to more than the cost of materials, labor & overhead. It got so bad that Cessna actually stopped building single-engine airplanes, and cut back on their multi-engine piston twins. Once Congress passed laws limiting liability payouts, the industry slowly began producing aircraft again. I've been away from the industry for years now, but I 'd be willing to bet that those premiums still make up a large part of the cost of components and aircraft, especially helicopters.

[@PassportBrosBusinessClass]

So basically you’re saying a lot of the parts TIME OUT or AGE OUT and need to be replaced at intervals. It’s a pretty helicopter 🚁 Very very expensive over time tho. I love that glass cockpit technology and the fenestron.

[@TheBeingReal]

Just like any aircraft!

[@desertduck44]

Hi, Love the videos thank you. I work as a car detailer here in the UK and have been asked by clients to clean their helicopters etc. There is a complete lack of information regarding the "do's and dont's" of cleaning these machines. Any chance of a video on how you care for your helicopters please.

[@Intrepid175a]

I think that's a good question!

[@helifixer206]

Hello Desertduck, that is a great question and depending on the manufacturer of the helicopter you are cleaning there will be different levels of information available to you. I will generalize and tell you that most modern helicopters will have instructions for cleaning in the maintenance manuals for the helicopter (usually in the standard practices or servicing sections). The owners/maintainers of the helicopters should have access to this information and be able to provide it to you. Typically you will even see "approved" soaps and cleansers and sometimes warnings about the use of certain cleaning agents on specialty metal parts (magnesium, titanium etc..). Here are some general tips/rules on helicopter cleaning: 1. DO NOT use high pressure washers, typical house tap pressure is fine but no gas or electric pressure washers, they can fail seals and push water to places it should not be... may even kill someone... 2. Use an aircraft approved soap like Zep Aircraft Cleaner II (just an example, may not be approved for the helicopters you work on). Not super cheap but works well on bugs and exhaust carbon deposits in my experience. 3. Rinse extremely well, all soaps are typically corrosive in some form (acidic or alkaline) so great rinsing will save expensive corrosion problems down the road. 4. Be aware of where you are spraying water and getting soap, you don't want to get water/soap in pitot static systems, engine air intakes, or fuel tank venting systems if possible. Once again a guy with a hose that pushed water up a tank vent HAS KILLED PEOPLE so it is an important consideration. I hope this helps you out and doesn't scare you too much but I feel it is necessary to mention the bad things that can happen so that everyone is aware, might save someone's life.

[@desertduck44]

@@helifixer206 Many thanks for that information. Some great tips there. Appreciate you taking the time.

[@vanelive09]

I'm not related to helicopters in any way but i love this channel

[@stoneyislandranch9783]

It's good to see this because the low life capacity of some parts are rediculous considering today's technology capabilities.. I'm looking to get a helicopter but those blades $$$$

[@alexpalios2570]

I hope to find a set of expired blades like your R44 just to test my diy ultralight helicopter. Dam! We are so far away. Thanks for sharing all these information to us.

[@tgeier1987]

You can build a Park-style sitting bench for your ramp from these Robbo-Blades... 😀

[@jakobschoen6499]

tgeier1987 Brillant Idee.

[@joen220]

Great and helpful information. Thanks

[@victorf.wertheimeriii234]

Robinson will probably never change cuz that's a heck of a good business model that guarantee in business you never really owned a Robert and you rented for about seven to eight dollars per day if it's sit still and never flew the gimbal is definitely much much better value in the long run

[@jimbob3201]

Wow ! That’s insane , you have to be a millionaire to own one , but at least now I know why it cost so much to learn how to fly one , a dream of mine that will never come true , just a truck driver that struggles day to day , but I’m so happy you make these videos , it at least gives me a chance to see things I may never see , ty so much for taking your time to put together all these wonderful videos for us to enjoy , god bless you and your team for the awesome entertainment , and giving us the opportunity to learn a little more each day ,

[@marsgal42]

Nice helicopter. Nice parts. Nice price tags. :-) My plane has no life-limited components, though there are inspection/overhaul requirements. The engine is specified as 2000 hours/12 years between overhauls, but in non-commercial service I can run it until it falls apart. It's currently 1300 hours/28 years SMOH with stable oil consumption, good compression and not making metal.

[@motorsrotors2127]

And this is the direction the helicopter industry needs to move towards. It is mindblowing the costs of BC Helicopters' Cabri G2, even having some or most of the components being "infinite life". I'm sure they'll pay out the purchase price of the helicopter itself withing the first 10-12 years.

[@commanderofkesariyaknights]

U shud focus on making apple pie

[@fargknob]

As far as upkeep......product liability, and lawyers. Turbine engines are meant for higher altitudes thus the richer fuel burn down low. I love working on them and sneaking a flight in once in a while...IMHO, since the dollar is worth maybe 0.10 now, everything is expensive. Great video....thanks.

[@philippebernon4835]

Très intéressant... comme d’habitude ! Thank you

[@pravinsable4058]

Very informative .... So is it worth buying preowned helicopters ....?

[@TransferAir]

A lot of things & all this without the calculation of having an Hangar, a Mechanic for the maintenance, etc. .... =/

[@barryaugustine5550]

Very informative. You do a great job. Your videos cover so much and I'm learning. Thank you.

[@metakmoto]

Awesome video! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights.

[@vincedenimarck6498]

Excellent Video as usual, your experience is admired

[@gym_bob]

Have you ever tried the smaller copters like the mosquitoes? '

[@keithsuggs7935]

I was looking for why to make a pitch link is $1200 for a threaded rod and socket assembly. It's like the lug nuts on your car costing $250 each.

[@DreadDoctor]

Once again,like everything else in aviation, we come back to liability imho. What the MFG's your talking about are doing is shifting the liability OFF themselves and on to the operator by saying "this part is on condition". therefore the operator now takes on the liability of when to replace said component. A bad thing? Not necessarily . But it is a change in dynamics as far as legality goes. I for one would not necessarily trust "Joe Mechanic" as saying "sure, those blades are still good after 7000 hrs". vs the MFG "who KNOWS when they will fail and says, Replace those blades at 4000 hrs.. also, as you alluded to, the MFG is protecting themselves, so they make you replace components quickly. There is definitely safe time left on most components, but once again, you are trusting "Joe Mechanic" to inspect them properly and make a judgement call. I think in the big picture it will have to play out in the court room because you know someone is going to push limits and kill someone by flying a part to long. Having said that, there is also time left on parts above what the MFG says they can do. Its an interesting subject and will be interesting to watch play out... Great video. Always enjoy your vids..

[@dieterhalbwidl4667]

Great information, thanks! Be safe!!

[@Jzemire]

Love your videos guys!! Wish I could leave Ontario to come visit you all in BC. I'm trying to start my Commercial Rotary Wing training but have been running into trouble doing so. Love all the videos, great source of experience and knowledge ! :)

[@Yippynutsmacker]

Seems like bell is a cheaper helicopter to buy, but its behind in technology and safety, and like you said it wears out too fast. Why did you get that r66 when you could of bought a slightly used ec120 which would be cheaper and safer in the long run.

[@tonykarlsson5609]

The EC is a nightmare when it comes to parts now. Waited for a exhange MGB for 3mth. And the torsion spider we had to motivate why we should get the part they had on stock and not their other customer.

[@daveogarf]

Thank you, Misha!

[@siddheshshigwan9875]

Hey, please make a video on how much in total does it cost to be a helicopter pilot before you get a job

[@stealhty1]

Fatigue= Money,,,great footage Captain

[@benhuot6852]

Great video, well explained... Funny that it's somewhat similar to RC helicopter

[@johnjennings8085]

The REAL high cost of operating helicopters is liability lawyers and lawsuits! You ding a helicopter and see how fast they show up!

[@airgaborpara3824]

Very good episode!

[@jackielee5815]

I like learn about helicopter is very good to know.the man should write about helicopter a book

[@av8tor261]

Components have cycle and calendar life as well. TX blades need the hacksaw OH. What out for bogus parts everyone.

[@bigmd1343]

You should make a bench from the old blades

[@mendozaconsultation]

What medical conditions PROHIBIT you from ppl license and for the Mosquito type that NO license is required, do you have to get medical clearance.?

[@regwatson2017]

You know this channel is so good that it kind of reminds me of shows that reveal magician's secrets. Are you sure that Helicopter Pilots Associations don't hate on you ? :-)

[@pepelepew2142]

thank you great INFO!

[@antoniohernandezg-monge6332]

Hi do you know Konner Helicopters? And wat do you think about?

[@iamkrishnan2636]

Very useful information

[@CarloPuntarelli]

How much does it cost to get a PPL on helicopters ( Cabri G2 )

[@germanfdr1]

Hi! I'm an airplane pilot and want to be a helicopter pilot. How much is the hour?

[@dcclyde575]

Imagine if you owned and operated a f22 raptor all by yourself. 🤣

[@christopherbeddoe406]

Yeah. All us Americans are footing the bill for that together. The only thing more amazing than the plane itself is its price tag. $334 million each @ $70k / hr. 4770 hours of flight = cost of a new one.

[@billyboblillybob344]

Your perspective is that of an end-user. The OEMs want your money. If you factor that into every aspect of your perspective, questions such why an OEM doesn't want to use composite rotor blades become a bit more clear. Also, what if that engine has a variant that is used to power an airplane instead of a helicopter. Engine times are based on hours and/or cycles. A helicopter cycle isn't the same as an airplane cycle. The engine isn't working nearly as hard powering an airplane as it is a helicopter. What does work in your favor though is that money-oriented OEMs will eventually lose out to performance/customer service oriented OEMs...for what it's worth.

[@mikercflyer7383]

Great information.

[@ssscnc6663]

hi sir can you please post for how to make wings videos

[@amitraaj8180]

I'll do that ,sir .. I'll make that helicopter which will also be in budget of second and third tire group of society and also by taking care of their safety as in case of airbag in car ... there will something for helicopter ..and many more 😊

[@Romefreak]

Can you do a video of landing on a carrier ship?

[@awesomo660]

Jesus Of IRL probably kinda hard for them to find a ship for them to land on in Canada

[@Kosmonooit]

I wonder how electrification will improve this, like electrical tail rotor, eliminating that gear box

[@PassportBrosBusinessClass]

I think the problem with electric rotors is electric motors have instant torque and aren’t auto-rotatable

[@CamiloMartinezAldaya]

@@PassportBrosBusinessClass Actually they are, in small planes you can even regenerate some electricity on the way down. The problem of the battery weight still remains.

[@davidmacphee3549]

SpaceX is looking at these problems for its new wings. They seem to be going all electric now eliminating hydraulics

[@Realcjs]

Just by the parts on Amazon and you’ll save big $$$$$

[@Afrocanuk]

They're even cheaper on Aliexpress.

[@maximusjoseppi5904]

waiting for guimbal to make a 4 seater.

[@Novadean1]

Just waiting and see ? For a 4 seater makes sense ?

[@Novadean1]

Yes I knew the experience !

[@tonykarlsson5609]

They have been working on a 4 seater for a while but no time for release last time I spoke to them

[@peterrowcliffe747]

The g2 are the best

[@arifsimon]

why cabri not making 5 seater ?

[@ssscnc6663]

HI, CAN YOU POST HOW TO MAKE WINGS VIDEOS

[@peterbird8161]

An S92 Tail gearbox costs more than that Robinson

[@mirkomania]

Aren´t you able to run parts on condition instead of lifetime? Or do you have to run them on hours because you are running a commercial flight school or ATO?

[@andreashutterer4740]

20.000 a piece.... my goodness...

[@cheapdope]

Fine I'll look into paramotors

[@aircraftsandtrains2309]

I flown the cabri g2

[@Steeyuv]

The 505 is a modern machine...but not in all ways.

[@1Maklak]

This explains why commercial rescue helicopters can cost thousands to tens of thousands of dollars per mission and it's better when hospitals or government agencies operate them at a loss.

[@ssscnc6663]

How much length a single blade,R22

[@SUPER_HELPFUL]

This video hits me right in the poor

[@rt0110]

Can i buy those timed out blades for novelty?

[@rorymcloughlin2023]

Is that a house next to the hanger? How could someone live there with the noise of helicopters taking off and landing, hope they love aviation

[@vitzkydrew1225]

Nice!

[@whathasxgottodowithit3919.]

It is possible to make a small fortune in aviation, however you had better start out with a large one :-)

[@wmc91]

Qual nome desse helicóptero e fabricante.?Obrigado #🇧🇷

[@jamesswannjr.7777]

How about if I brought a hewy i guess i spell it wright

[@thesearcherman6652]

How does a helicopter company generate enough profit from sales alone, to stay in business without time rated spare parts sales? Thanks!

[@awesomo660]

The SearcherMan the hourly rate for flying a helicopter accounts for the replacing of the parts and they spread out the price of single components over the lifespan so you might have blades that last 5000 hours and cost ten thousand dollars each so it would be 10,000 divided by 5000 which is 2 and then 3 blades is 6 so it’s costs 6 dollars an hour to operate the blades on this imaginary helicopter and then you do that for every single component and add fuel and instructor cost and you finally have the hourly rate to run the helicopter So it’s less like they are paying big bucks to replace these parts every few thousand hours and more like they are paying it off over the course of the lifespan of the parts I hope that makes sense

[@orisonsquirrell]

Because they're cool as duck!!

[@brianmestdagh916]

What helicopter is this

[@jguillermoii]

Wow. How do you run a business where maintenance cost will cost you two arms and two legs?

[@DraGon-cg6ge]

model helicopter?

[@xtremediycreations]

Theres probably like only 200 dollars worth of material in one of those blades.

[@sherwinsalvatori6997]

Hmmm after watching you i think i go to a hobby center and buy ma a rc heli

[@gorrion.pr.600]

What about when refueling, the toy,? 🤔

[@lornasilver6706]

Hmmm yeah interesting question my lovely!!!!!

[@a.g.8871]

50k for a tail boom??? I know aviation is expensive, but how can you justify that price tag from a manufacturer's point? That's maybe 3 square meters of aluminum and 100rivets on a robinson and maybe some bearings for the driveshaft. And the manufacturing won't take too long I guess. So maybe, MAYBE, 2-3k is a justifiable price tag. I'm just talking about a bare boom, no gearbox or anything. Oh boy, that way I'll never be able to buy me one of those.....

[@beandrive]

No one likes to talk about time-sensitive components, It seems like only governments and big businesses can operate these as they do. It is kind of like watching a Rolls Royce commercial while eating a $5 pizza-pizza and driving a 10-year-old KIA while living on social security. Just say'n.

[@ToyManFlyer1100]

Like they say... Fly for a hour...Work on it for 8 hours....

[@ursushorribilis1092]

I see no reason whatsoever that a helo blade should cost $20,000.000 each. That is robbery and they charge it because they have a monopoly on the product.

[@vladimator1842]

Excuse me??? Sorry, I'm just now getting the "Get tuu da Choppa" bug and been watching KZbin videos on helicopters for about 2 months now, but just from this video right here, i now found out that one single blade costs $20k or higher?? Nooo....I'm seriously shocked by this info, for real!! I thought that one such blade wouldn't cost more than $4 - $5k by using my common sense alone!! I've determined those prices, just by knowing of the manufacturing techniques alone, and just how much material and effort really goes into building one, it isn't as complicated as let's say... putting a chopper or a plane kit together or even buying a new transmission for your car, or an engine! Why so damn expensive?? I can't come to understanding the logic behind it! To me, it just simply shows a technical scheme being enforced here, or trying to boost up these prices since they're built good enough and not much serious maintenance is needed on them, etc! $20k? still hard to process!! For that price, knowing you can't just buy one blade at a time, you gotta buy the whole kit, if you have a 3 bladed rotor, you can almost if not, buy another helicopter like a Mosquito, or a used Robinson, whatever. Even a plane if you're into fixed wing stuff! Omg 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@kennethiman2691]

I was going to buy a helicopter. Decided to have a bonfire of $100 bills instead.

[@coronapack]

20k a piece? What a Rip off

[@handreard]

Haw much??????? 🤔

[@ellonysman]

I still see the Great Pumkin GELP flying...are you still getting some work and helping BCH survive the pandemic? Hope so. (Woa, Mischa, the gray is coming in a lot now, lol, I know, stress related)