Why are Magic Schools LIKE THAT?

Why are Magic Schools in Fantasy always modelled after 20th Century British Boarding Schools? Is it Rowling or Le Guinn's fault? Or is there a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of magic and worldbuilding occurring? Let's discuss.
#fantasyworldbuilding #fantasy #worldbuilding #magic #magicschool
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[@PeekABeeGaming]

The convenience of a boarding school for storytelling is that there are no parents around. Sometimes it is the simple things. That is one of the main difference between stories like harry potter compared to the bureau of magical things. Lockwood and co is an example of another way to do it but it has a more narrow focus on the storytelling (which is a strength for that story type).

[@freelancerthe2561]

10 years old is the minimum requirement to become a qualified pokemon trainer, letting you wander the world and wilderness on your own, and access to a fairly comprehensive network of support facilities; all of the goal of creating contestants for regional fighting tournaments, competitions, and several sectors of fashion, entertainment, and care facilities..... all feeding into each other to become the world's central economic driver. Competitions are Sports events that draw in huge crowds; which is presumably what funds everything else in a cascading effect. How else can bunch of 10-20 year olds make a career going to contests with no need for external sponsors, no discernible source of income besides taking each other's money by wining 1v1 skirmishes, and no functional trade skills that are applicable outside the overall competition network. And its well established champions usually go on to become ranking members of the competition scene's supporting organizations.... gym leaders, regulators, celebrities, researchers, breeders, etc. And despite all that.... they STILL have schools explicitly geared toward educating competition trainers. It has all the benefits of a Hero's Journey format, but without requiring some kind of motivating tragedy or trauma to get the adventure under way.

[@PeekABeeGaming]

@@freelancerthe2561 Pokemon rarely highlights the underground fight to the death matches, not to mention all the terrible injuries that must occur to chldren under the age of 12 who are hunting down strong pokemon. I am a robot. I can put my arm back on but you can't. So play safe. OOooohhhh the 80's commercials.

[@evanpereira3555]

@@freelancerthe2561 I think there is two things, the first obviously is gameplay limitation and the second that our character is a prodigy (people dedicate their all life to battle and somehow we defeat them).

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@PeekABeeGaming it does actually highlight the _opposite_ of the terrible injuries fairly frequently, once you stop passing things off as just cartoon logic and notice the various other ways that the pokemon world's humans are ... kinda monstrous themselves. lance can order his dragonite of near-legendary power to blast a man into a wall with a beam of pure destructive energy, and the man doesn't even lose a fingernail. fighting type specialists will regularly spar with their pokemon that _embody_ the concept of physical fitness and mastery, and even kids that don't commit to training more than their pokemon can lift up some _incredibly_ heavy pokemon without even breaking a sweat. and even if they don't have the same capability to blast out fire or lightning out of some sort of orifice, psychic powers are common enough among them that it's the premise of a generic trainer class, plus there's the rarer talent of aura sensitivity and whatever spiritual abilities that channelers and the like have really, the concern over letting kids going to tall grass likely has more to do with the mental trauma of being pulverized by a gang of rowdy spearow or houndour or whatever, rather than the threat of permanent disfigurement. it's not as though serious injury doesn't exist in the pokemon world, but the pokemon and trainers alike are all durable motherfuckers that'll go down from pain and exhaustion far, _far_ sooner than a broken limb or serious burn

[@kovi567]

I think you put the cart before the horse again. Magical boarding school is not a convenient setting for a fantasy story. It's an escapist fantasy about your arguably most... intense and chaotic part of life being, quite fraknly, less boring and mundane. That's why they are so popular: It's not familiarity in an otherwise alien setting, it's the "upgrade" of an already familiar setting. Just a little dip in fantasy, not full-on immersion.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

It depends if it is a magical school in a magical setting, or... if it's straight up Isekai like Harry Potter.

[@kovi567]

@@kamikeserpentail3778 Helli Copter being an isekai is something that I hate being said... but also can't help but agree with. Regardless, it may be just my personal experience, but from my view, if there is a magic boarding school in the setting, then it's the main point, ergo my claim up above stands. Best example against this notion I can remember would be from an anime, Jobless Reincarnation, where it has a school arc but otherwise it's a "generic" fantasy.

[@lonjohnson5161]

I think the most obvious use of a magic school is a compulsory school for kids with magic. They need to learn how to control their powers and, more importantly, be instilled with the belief that there is someone more powerful who can ruin their day. It doesn't even matter if it is one person who is more powerful, a group who collectively is more powerful or even a sufficient uncertainty as to who is more powerful.

[@rhisands2063]

I always liked the approach taken by Terry Pratchett's Unseen University in his Discworld books. Taking students from the time their magical ability first manifests, which can be any time from nine-twenty ish, and their strategy for making sure all students get through their education intact is... they don't. It is to hand a bucket of ooze back to the grieving parents with the statement "well, we warned them not to do it". And if the parents want to sue, well, the University has a whole frog pond full of lawyers who thought they could sue the school.

[@pedroff_1]

Also, it's nice it shows magic is seen as a skill by them, but as an art by witches

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

12:30 Many high schools in the US teach driving to their students. Not all, and I couldn't find a current percentage, but definitely many.

[@Grungeon_Master]

Wow, I had no idea! Isn't that wildly inefficient? Unless the school hires an outside instructor and takes individual students out during lesson time? Hmm.

[@DanielMWJ]

​@@Grungeon_MasterI know mine had a sign up for it. I think they essentially just networked you to a certified driving instructor, possibly from among the teachers.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

​​@@Grungeon_Master Considering that only 31 states out of 50 require ANY driver's ed before trying for the test, my guess is there's a lot to improve in those systems overall.

[@joelkreissman6342]

@@Grungeon_MasterYeah, it’s usually an outside instructor who comes in for a couple weeks. Often after usual school hours.

[@evanhornbeck5946]

@@Grungeon_Master Whenever I took Driver's Ed in high school, it was an elective and an actual class period that we would take for 9 weeks. The school had a bunch of old junk cars and a mock driving course that included a parking lot and stop lights. We would spend the class period on the course. We would each get five days of open driving where we were taken off the school grounds. This was usually our lunch period, but if another teacher was cool, they would let us out during their period to drive.

[@NotreDameKoor]

What I miss here is a discussion on mage schools as a means of controlling magic. Many schools go out into the world to find people with magical talent to take them to the school to be trained. The Council of Sorcerers in the Witcher tv-series does this, the Aes Sedai does this, the Jedi Academy does this. All of them are also powerful organisations with their own political and often military influence. Taking the pupils away from their parents serves the purpose to cut them off from outside influence, to better mold them into loyal members of the organisation. Hogwarts is special, because in the HP world the wizarding world is its own thing that exists parallel to the real world. Mage schools in HP serve as entryway to be allowed to be part of this wizarding world, at least for talented muggles.

[@greenguy369]

I had a similar thought. This is how the academy in the Image Portfolio works as well. Once your powers manifest, you fail to register as a student at the school at your own risk. (Yes. ⚰️ They flat out tell the protagonist in book 1 something like, "If you hadn't come to us on your own we would have eliminated you.")

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

If the magic school also taught written, history, math, philosophy, creativity tactics, magic language that Separate from regular language, and so with specialized spellcasting class We can do the same way how medieval knight did from page, squire than knight

[@bajabrainblast6075]

In my D&D setting, the dominant "magic university" is operated by a militant magocracy and used almost exclusively to turn promising conscripts (ages 18-19) into proficient military officers and scholars to contribute to their nation. In a semi-realistic setting, military academy settings should be considered as alternatives

[@TeresaBlocker-zm7bj]

also considering a fireball is basically a grenade, firestorm an airstrike, and wish a nuke... yeah they better have military training/loyalty to their country before being able to be anywhere near those dangerous weapons!

[@bajabrainblast6075]

@TeresaBlocker-zm7bj And even more basic spells would revolutionize warfare. Mages could specialize as radiomen, sending messages telepathically far distances, and transporting massive amounts of personnel and materials with higher level spells (gate, teleportation circle, etc). The possibilities are endless

[@freelancerthe2561]

Wouldn't that be the underlying premise for the magic school in Owl House? Except, you would actually call it a trade school, seeing as how they measure aptitude in a field, and force you to specialize it.

[@bajabrainblast6075]

@freelancerthe2561 The Owl House is a good example, though incredibly restrictive because of how Belos wanted to control magic (and those were middle/high schools). I wish we had gotten to see what the other schools on the Boiling Isles looked like.

[@TeresaBlocker-zm7bj]

@@bajabrainblast6075 well until someone casts anti magic field or zone of silence, then the wizards better know how to use a sword, or gun.

[@twelfthknight]

I think Rowling's universe is really lacking in making the adult Magical World feel particularly substantive, that the fantasy kind of ends when you hit 18 and everything after that is sort of vague and confusing. There's no magic university, nor a scholarly discourse to dig further into, and most adult professions wizards & witches are expected to transition into are thinly sketched concepts. Throw in her lamentably shallow concept of schooling applies to the entire world and it gets even worse. That's not an issue when you're writing about that escapist school life fantasy, but see how well it lasted when you got into the Fantastic Beasts franchise starring full-fledged adults.

[@DanielMWJ]

Hogwarts makes more sense if people coming out of it with NEWTs are basically interns. So, senior apprentices that are expected to have the basic skills already that can then be adapted by masters/business owners to produce basic for-profit goods and services with minimal supervision and guidance while they are taught further practical skills and mastery. It cuts out the need for masters/business owners to deal with unproductive junior apprentices. Or to have to deal with teaching general skills. Of course, Hogwarts doesn't seem to teach general skills besides basic magic!

[@nomadzophiel]

Some American high schools have vocational programs like that. They replace all classes after lunch in senior year and prepare you for entry level positions in fields like auto mechanics. . . so Harry Potter book 7 is the magical British version of Grease. 😆

[@qq-wy7zs]

A better system (and note that it now being the best system doesn't necessarily make it unrealistic) would be to have 2 (ish) years of general studies, magical law, politics of "the Wizarding world," magic safety, remedial math and reading for people who don't have that before hand, and basic introductory courses for various professions. Then follow this with specific courses more like college than high school. At least in Harry Potter.

[@wereguy]

I'm kinda disappointed. You want to discuss magic schools, but you don't mention Unseen University or Strixhaven, or the multiple teaching methods discussed for the various Traditions and Conventions in Mage: the Ascension. You also don't discuss the centuries-old European university system, which would seem to address many of your criticisms of the British boarding school system.

[@larstollefsen1236]

This, I was about to comment on a similar line of thought. Hogwarts makes no sense to take 6th graders and ruin half of their education. The College of Winterhold, writing problems aside, is far more natural.

[@Grungeon_Master]

Well, if you want a video about universities, I do have one of those, in which the unseen university gets a mention, as does the centuries-old European university system. But this one is about schools...

[@larstollefsen1236]

@@Grungeon_Master That seems a rather random line to draw. A video about education should mention places of education. The fact that you already have a video focused should warrant a mention of it with a plug to said video, not a complete omission. Even better you could have drawn contrasts and comparisons between the two. Like how a magical primary school should have all the subjects needed for a GED with basic spell theory while a college or university would likely be more focused on more advanced magecraft.

[@MauroDraco]

It’s always possible to do more and the scope of things you’ve suggested is very wide… it takes a few words and no afterthought to say “research lol this”, but actually doing this is a lot of work. You know? I think the video has a great length, explores the theme sufficiently with a well thought structure. And Tom’s suggestion to look for more on his universities video, should encourage you to check it out first instead of triggering complaints of how he decided to divide the topics.

[@MauroDraco]

@@larstollefsen1236 Universities are, both historically and even functionally, a different beast than schools. Tom’s proposition was to talk about “magic schools”, clearly laid out to how it’s done in HP and similar troupes. It is not about education at large… Isn’t it enough how much work he does to publish these videos? That’s a hard and very time consuming job

[@georgethompson913]

You seem to forget that universities originated in the middle ages, and these taught students everything from philosophy to astrology (and occasionally nevromancy).

[@nctpti2073]

Not to mention guilds.

[@blumiu2426]

Universities are not schools.

[@TheAnalyticalEngine]

At the risk of going "um, actually" - whilst apparition tests are held at Hogwarts, they aren't administered by the school, nor are licences to apparate issued by the school. A government-approved instructor goes to the school and gives lessons to students if they are old enough - the Ministry of Magic then issues licences to those who have passed their apparition tests And (in the United States anyway) there are schools where pupils take driving lessons (plus, they start learning earlier than here in the UK)

[@Dreamfox-df6bg]

There is another question to be asked. Why is Magic being taught at a school to begin with? The existence of Hogwarts pretty much cements the Ministry of Magic's authority over all things Magic in the UK. It might not have been like that in the beginning, but somewhere along the way it became that way. Also, the Ministry needs skilled Wizards to keep itself running.

[@crownlexicon5225]

What i enjoyed about Dungeon Dudes' take on Magic School is that Mages are rather ostracized. Historically, the mages ruled as Sorcerer Kings and were overthrown by nobility and the church. Magic School provides a safe place for mages to learn free from prejudice from commonfolk. Additionally, there is the aspect of research at higher levels, but the base corriculum seems largely about not blowing oneself (or others) up (unintentionally, anyway) While, yes, its a d&d setting, so player characters focus more on combat, the school itself is majority researchers and noncombatants.

[@finisterre2415]

I think, one of my favourite types of 'Magic Schools' is the Prequel-Era Jedi Order from Star Wars. an interesting mix of english-style monasteries, and trade schools - along with the ability to work for high school drama-like stories to take place.

[@Wolfsspinne]

Over here in Germany every kid under the age of 18 is obligated to attend to what we call "Allgemeinbildende Schule" (roughly 'general educating school') where they have to learn about languages as well as maths, sciences, ethics & religion, sports, arts and music. With that cultural background an equally 'general educating magic school' only ever made sense to me, and still does after this video.

[@joelkreissman6342]

There’s a number of real world magical traditions that refuse to teach hormonal teenagers anything and only start “apprenticeships” after they’ve gotten some mileage under them. Don’t take my word on this, but I think it was Kabbalah that used to be restricted to middle-aged and older married men.

[@NevisYsbryd]

There usually were strict constraints on who was eligible to be taught it that generally correlated with age, yes.

[@zednumar6917]

To study kabbalah you have to be over 30, married with children, and have a deep knowledge of Jewish law, religion, and history.

[@Avigorus]

My brain is going to a fanfic, Harry Potter and the Natural 20, where Milo (a trope & system-aware Wizard from a D&D universe who gets thrown into the HPverse with the explanation given a while later) hears the description of Hogwarts and think it's brilliant that the students get to fight each other in the hallways and wander the forest to fight monsters and whatever to earn XP and level-up (he operates by level-ups and has extreme difficulty comprehending that everyone else learns incrementally through practice and study, not to mention how different the biology winds up working especially with healing, and then he gets addicted to Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans cause the flavors overload him cause he's used to no description outside of plot). EDIT: other fanfics had for example America teaching magic at summer camps and secret classes at college teaching a far more scientific variation than Hogwarts did, another had the teaching handled exclusively by home schooling due to how they wanted to break away from European tradition, etc... there's a lot out there

[@Grungeon_Master]

I've read the whole thing more times than I've read the original books. It's soooo good!

[@tnt_rebel2796]

I always appreciate your videos, and how far in depth you go with them. I actually take your video concepts to heart when making my own fantasy world as to make it as believable as possible, in short thank you =3

[@JakFool123]

One small gripe I have w/ Magic Schools: who does the cooking, cleaning and other tasks to keep it running? It's really like how most fantasy centers around nobles and heroes and servants don't have names, are barely mentioned or somehow apparently absent. This bothers me the older I get and notice the devaluing these jobs/tasks get.

[@Coffy-chan]

That's pretty... realistic. Honestly.

[@FarremShamist]

Well.... In HP we have the answer, and it's slavery there.

[@justinterry8894]

Unless their a actual character. With plot significance theirs no reason to mention the cooks or staff. like how in some non fantasy books taking place in a school they don't always talk about the lunch lady because it's irrelevant to the story.

[@elderscrollsswimmer4833]

At least Harry Potter does tell you: it's the house elves. Percy Jackson's summer camp is a bit vague; they just have magical plates and goblets apparently. Then again, they all have a deity for a parent. They do get some tasks around the camp though.

[@wereguy]

I think my issue with this video is that you come so close to talking about magical paradigms but stop just at the precipice. The best magical education system for any particular world is going to depend entirely on that world's magical paradigm. And HP's magical paradigm is mostly hocus bullshitius. While Unseen University makes perfect sense for the Disc, given that their primary job is deliberately NOT doing any magic and the damage they do when they DO use it, so the most powerful are given the luxury of eating lots of large meals and generally faffing about.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

20:12 In the Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey, the coexistence of multiple religions with one centralized school of magic (of a very peculiar kind) works pretty well IMO. The books also illustrate how a single state religion combined with the use of magic(s) can end up in a very bad place. (anyone new to the Valdemar books should consult the Valdemar Wiki for the chronological order of the books, it differs a LOT from the publication order. Above all: read Exile's Valor before By the Sword)

[@hasseo195]

The book: Guild of black magic (or similary to that) is very good with the question: "Why are school?". In the prequel was it standard, that 1 wizard had 1 apprentice. Sometimes more. He teach the student magic and the student had to work for the master. The problem came, when a other nation attacked the country and killed a lot of the wizards. With there death was all there knowledge and discovery lost. After the war ended, did the survived wizards decided, to make a guild and school, where they are teaching the students together magic. WIth this way, was they able to teach them more fields of knowledge. More specialist was created (they had later 3 branches) and, the knowledge was collected and not owned by a single one. Magic is something that is allways showed as very complex. Where you have to learn many fields. A school make simply sense for that (question is often, how to pay for it). Master-Apprentiece relationships mostly works, when magic is rare. Or, dont have the base knowledge for the school (like Mushoku). Or, dont have the money for the school. Myx critic by the school setting (and learning magic in overall) is: Why are they allways trained to be fighters? And learn attack spells from the youngest age one. Whe all know, how kids are. Esspecialy bullies (and in extend, there victems). Giving them practicly weapons with no security is extrem questionable. Why is it so rarely, that the schools are focusing mostly on non offensive kind of spells. And offensive magic is later one teached by fighting organisations and so on (ok, reason is: for storytelling^^). It becomes even more questionable, when it is even expected, that not every student will survive the school years. Hogwarts is even one of the best school settings in that part. A other reason for school is than, that its a easy set up to have all the necressary character at one place, without needing explanations, why the people are at that place.

[@douglasphillips5870]

Unseen University is really an allegory for academia. As a center of magic knowledge and research it fits with the skill based wizardry that was talked about. But, it also addresses the prestige of academic achievement making wizard a social class as much as a job

[@MrCafitzgerald]

This is why I like hte system in the Millennial Mage by J.L. Mullins, in it the "magic" school exists to teach basics and gives students a broad foundation and knowledge in what they could specialize in. Admission is based on if they have the physical capability to generate magic power at a certain level. On graduation they get the title "Mageling" and need to find a master to teach them one on one in specific roles and watch them in the most dangerous period of growth. Once the Master is satisfied will the be told how to achieve full mage status.

[@pedroff_1]

I like how Discworld, which shows there are the wizards, that teach magic in an university and treat it as a skill, while the witches treat it as an art, needing a lot of attuning to nature and having some degree of fllair, due to the most powerful kind of magic, "headology" (psychology), which is basically convincing people that you are indeed a really powerful witch. One of the books that delves most into it (at least from the ones I've read so far) is "Equal Rites"

[@brendantuthill6491]

I think the ttrpg "Wizard" is a great way to have such a magic school. Anyone hypothetical can learn the hyperspecific gestures and vocab words to manipulate reality into a given spell result, and hypothetically failing to cast a level 1 spell doesn't generally mean level 9 results. There's no wild magic, no associated primal sources holding sway, etc. Just success or fizzling out.

[@dragonturtle2703]

Magic might have such a structured schooling system if magic is really dangerous and the state wishes to have strict control over it. Thus state run mass education of anyone with the aptitude (and accepted).

[@jetdragon5921]

The Mage Errant series by John Bierce starts out with a magic school. It does everything right like you descirbe

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Most are just a convenience to keep the Characters together. I have seen different style 'magic schools' but they all end up having to deal with the same narrative problems: A random collection of characters with different backgrounds, made other players at that. The expectation that the collage will play into the mechanics of the game, such as levelling up for more spells. With the cap stone being, of course, our stories often require the sort of hierarchies that just seem normal in a 'British collage' setting. Then there is the fact we are lazy: Most of us are western, and we all grew up with a 'school system' that we are going to mimic.

[@beardyben7848]

If you are going to teach someone to bend the odds of reality, and you believe the ill-will can be ritually weaponized...I would want people with emotional maturity and hormonal balance to have that information. I would also argue for requiring a developed ethical structure for dealing with the world. These conventional and reasonable concerns tend to correlate with someone who is much closer to 22 than 12. That said, taking on a kid around 10 to teach them ethics, self-discipline and tools for emotional regulation and resilience is also agreeable. An apprentice can be tutored and given life guidance. Such kids could be ready for greater responsibility by 16, having 6 years of mental and emotional preparation, and experience managing the hormonal rollercoaster. There's also age appropriate skills to teach. For instance, practically no one is mature enough to ethically deploy mental and emotional manipulation magic. Honestly a realistic approach would be to teach defense against enchantment, as mind/emotional control is practically indefensible morally. D&D sleep is terrifying to deploy against other humans. Great, now I'm have moral quandries about level one spells...Magic is legitimately terrifying. Horror based on D&D type magic in my next project, apparently...

[@krispalermo8133]

Anyone with a 2year old that refuses to eat their food or go to sleep at a reasonable hour will understand How & Why the two spells Sleep & Charm Person are the most used on daily casting. b.) DM being sly, player cast Sleep at a group of guards, three gnolls and four orcs. Call high or low roll of the die/dice. The gnolls eat the orcs and then take a nap. Play up how brutal the gnolls are to get the Players to feel bad for the orcs. c.) Three guardsmen at a road check point, wizard cast Sleep. One guard strips down and turns into a wolf with belly up to the sun and starts to snore. Second guard runs off in terror leaving his unfinish mug of beer. Third guard kicks up his feet and finish the other guys beer. Did the remaining guy pass or failed his willpower or fight/ flight reflex not concessional realizing how much danger he was near a werewolf ? Is he also a werewolf ? Why did he just let the other guy run off ? d.) .. Sleep .. bar maid is WotC3e 3rd-level rogue with 6ranks Bluff and sneak/flank attack of +2d6dmg. You are sitting at a table, and the maid lends in with a big smile and deep heavy sigh saying hello you like my necklace ? The hits you up across the side of the head with the beer pitcher. Roll fort vs DC10+dmg delt to resist knock out.

[@Stranj100]

MtG Strixenhaven is more like a college with divisions in magical language, magical anthropology, magical performance, magical mathematics, magical biology.

[@Wojtek36762]

Great discussion! Wanted to shout out a magic school novel I read last year that hits all these tropes, but clearly considers and earns most of them. In R. F. Kuang’s Babel, magic comes from linguistic translation, where a person inscribes similar words from different languages in which they have deep fluency into opposite sides of a silver bar, and the silver draws power from the subtle differences in meaning. The story is set in Victorian England, and the British Empire is the leading force in using this magic. The combination of silver and cultural knowledge as the power base for empire gives magic a very clear allegorical role. Because of the depth of language understanding required to inscribe the magic or create new spell pairs, the best translators are people with early fluency in two or more really disparate languages. The magic school, Babel, is a college within Oxford into which a small number of students are directly accepted for their existing linguistic skills. The University is keenly aware of its role as a keystone of imperial power, and goes to great lengths to locate and even create potential translators from all corners of the Empire and get them to Babel. I hadn’t considered before watching this how this makes the magic deeply academic and something to be studied in a class that eventually moves to an apprenticeship relationship at the upper levels with the only experts in your language. Each student has individual worth and talent that’s connected both to their unique background and their academic aptitude, and as they advance, each one is of personal value to the Imperial project. That serves as excellent setup for the “involvement with dark powers,” these students start to understand the Empire’s role in the world and their home countries and consider how to resist it. Also a big fan of magic as an allegory for capital because you can establish that while a silver bar with a trainer operator could cure hundreds of people a day of certain diseases and halt pandemics across the world, most silver is being used on casual luxuries for the wealthy in the imperial core, or to strengthen the warships. I really enjoyed Babel for how it fit the magic into the politics of the world and connected it thematically and mechanically to the students’ identities. The way the setting’s magic really feels like an academic discipline that you’d set up to teach at Oxford is an angle I hadn’t noticed until you started talking about all the versions that don’t work like that. Kuang herself studied at Oxford as a Chinese-American, and works very hard to set the school at Oxford specifically, and not just at Fancy British Boarding School.

[@G-Funk42]

Are you sure that Charles Xavier's school for mutants in the X-Men doesn't count as a "magic school"? In storytelling, magic doesn't have to be limited to the medieval understanding of what magic was.

[@MartinRudat]

I'd argue it's more the art school version of magical school; no two mutants are alike, they each do their own thing, the school can only provide mentorship and a space to practice in safety for honing those abilities... that they are _also_ a school is sort of orthogonal to that, except that becoming an active mutant occurs during your school years.

[@predatitor4183]

For nobody discovers all the dangers that the childer are exposed

[@emilspegel9677]

The premise is really more a matter of how the magical system operate inside the world, with Harry Potter's setting being very specific in that there are essentially a separate species of humans whom can do magic. In Dnd terms they are all sorcerers, whom posses innate magic, but they seem to require tutoring for the magic to really work beyond random effects caused by feelings. Hogwarts started as a center for this kind of activity, which where effective since the population of potential students was and still remain low. Its education probably has evolved with the growing needs by wizarding society to maintain its varying specializations, mixed with a great degree of tradition and social influence from mainline British society, which many wizards and witches still had to relate to and interact with. There is also the fact that there seems to have been a kind of shift within their society, as dwindling wealth among the established families have driven on a more vocational direction for the school. This is analogous to the private schools of Britain, which came to focus on educating the affluent upper and middle classes to take up positions within government. Taking dnd and other settings, the traditional wizard is more inspired by either the classical master/apprentice system (as mentioned) or is more than heavily inspired by the universities of Europe, starting from medieval times and on. Often here there are certain institutions which are noted for their expertise in magic specifically, in turn drawing students focused on that subject to venture there. This is quite analogous to European settings, where there where schools which evolved as strong centers for different fields, one example coming to mind being the famous Medical School of Salerno which attracted students from across Europe. Many academics dabbled in esoteric subjects, as these where not yet debunked, and some would supplement their income by acting in the capacity of court wizard at one of the many varied courts of Europe. Indeed in history what we consider magic developed among the learned classes, with those engaging in the attempted practice often already possessing an academic base to work from. Magic was an extension of philosophy, religion and science, with many of the influential authors and persona associated with European magic operating within a common framework of theory and the goals often being very esoteric, the end goal of the learning being perfecting the soul or communing with god among other things.

[@maxmouse2099ad]

I went to a high school that was a vocational/career academy specializing in visual communications. Everything was taught at the honors/college level. I imagine in my fantasy universe something similar. Schools specializing in artifice, healing magic, magical defense, etc. So having a core curriculum around one particular aspect of magic not only makes sense to me, it's my lived experience.

[@davidsantos1299]

Im loving this video! Yesterday on dnd reddit I mentioned your channel as one of the underrated ones, because of the fascinating ideas you have about worldbuilding with the magic system that dnd uses. I did however mention that I didn't love the way you speak (which felt really jerkish of me). Which is totally innacurate for this wonderful video. In older videos you employed a rethorical style that I identify with academic circles (and philosophy teachers in particular) which feels less relaxed to me, but is probably perceived differently by others. But I really like the method you employed in this video. Having said that, I hope you always use whichever method you enjoy the most, and you have a subscriber for life.

[@motherreaper7287]

The thought and care you put into these topics is wonderful. I'm not so well versed on history, but I'd tend to think that a lot of magic would have its roots in very early humanity, we see some very complex religious rituals in Egyptian scrolls, and I can't even guess at ancient Mesopotamia. Whether or not that coincides with a time of shamanism, I don't know. Suffice it to say i can see it first revolve around farming, fertility, worship, recitations, rituals, and maybe potions.

[@MauroDraco]

Thanks, Tom! Nice insights and discourse!

[@matthewparker9276]

My school did have a unit on driving safety, and included in that unit was guiding us through the process of applying for a driving license. Admittedly my school was connected to a trade school, and did offer a selection of trade certificates, but this program isn't associated with that, nor specific to my school.

[@YawdroGaming]

Great video! I haven’t thought this deeply about this topic! I always just accepted it on its face depending on the story.

[@onlirier2993]

This video came at the perfect time, I've just been devising the history of the educational system in my fantasy world, which at the time of my story has twin roots in both trade schools and in religiously founded institutions devoted to scientific and philosophical research. It's not magic school, just regular school, but this does provide some great background information which I was desperately lacking, so thanks! Although, since my magic system functions to its fullest potential when viewed from a scientific lens, I can definitely see a shift in priorities of that educational system as the existence of magic gets pushed into the mainstream and industrialization continues...

[@WikiSnapper]

As always, thank you for another fantastic video!

[@Primalmoon]

My U.S. schooling went the route of everyone getting the same general education for the first 8 years (with some minor "choice" of "electives" in middle school but really you didn't have a choice and it was just random assignment with a requirement that you had to get at least 1 gym class and 1 health class over the course of the year...), and finally in high school (4 years) there was a split and some specialization could happen. There was still some general education, but there was also the ability to take classes focusing on "College Prep" vs "Vocational" (going to immediately go into working after high school, or even going to drop out and this will be the last schooling you get before going to work). Maybe take an art class or an extra chemistry class. Or try out one of the vocational classes where you learned tradeskills like wood working / metal working / architecture drafting and CAD software / agriscience. Which could lead into work-training programs and off-campus jobs if you went far enough. Or other "arts" like football practice or band. Or pre-military education via the ROTC program. The choices here were up to the student, but even if you were going for the College prep route, the exact mix of elective opportunities and scheduling subtly encouraged you to at least try out some of these vocational classes as some of them still tended to be useful skills to learn as part of basic home maintenance. And this gave some opportunities for networking and social mobility in that there would be "college" kids and "vocational" kids in the same classes. A woodworker might see how useful it is to pay attention to that trigonometry class when a college route kid figures out the angles for a cut much more quickly, and college route kids learn to respect the people that actually stick with those trades.

[@Tazirai]

I'm glad you mentioned it from a European perspective. Because it wouldn't be the same everywhere. My girls great great grandmother was a yotuban priestess.and learned from her aunt, who learned from her mother. So her skill with "magic" came from a 300 year old lineage. If this was her ancestral homeland. It would have been taught to most of the girls in that town/village.

[@Cotfi2]

The "boarding school novel" was a common setup in British popular fiction at the turn of the last century, and Rowling stole liberally from them once she realized they'd been out of vogue for generations and were ripe for revival. At that time, the US was gobbling up "Tom Mix" and other local-boy-does-good potboilers that moralized the value of hard work and perseverance, so the US audience didn't even have that historical awareness. Rowling discovered a whole subgenre she could hijack for her worldbuilding, and the first Harry Potter novel ticked all the boxes.

[@rzrx1337]

That's a lot of inflammatory words, did Rowling shit on your plate?

[@VallelYuln]

It's an inflammatory way of speaking about something many authors do. The facts aren't wrong, but the phrasing does a disservice to the actual quality of the storytelling in those books

[@wtr3059]

Look mate, I'm all for criticising her for the actual shit she does, but "stealing" from a genre? "Hijacking" a subgenre? Really? This is ridiculous. Your post, without the unneccessary bashing that would apply to pretty much every author out there, is interesting nontheless

[@doyga5977]

In my story, i have the diverse types of magic users (Mages, Clerics, Druids, etc.) have their own type of "school" and the type of teaching, like the alchemists are more like the "default" type of magic school while say, witches are more like the olde private instructors that go to a student's home and teach them their stuff. I think that putting multiple teacher types also helps greatly, like some teachers having more practical classes, while others do off-plan things to better show the intrincasies of the magic.

[@ethans9379]

How is magic as a trade different from magic as a skill? I couldn’t quite grasp that in the video

[@bajabrainblast6075]

I see it as *how* the magic is used. Magic alone as a trade can be used for monetization such as entertainment, crafting, or communication. Magic as a skill is the study of magic for the sake of magic. It's like the difference between learning carpentry as a trade (job) or as a hobby (skill).

[@qq-wy7zs]

Generalization. Math is a general skill that can be applied to a lot of things. Carpentry is a specific trade focused on selling furniture. Or in magical terms. Draconian language is a skill that can be used in many professions. Alchemy is for making and selling potions.

[@ninjabreadman22]

Magic school is an idea that's easy to sell. Boarding school kids read. It's close to having a captive audience in a way, and it even helps reinforce the hegemonic idea that even the arcane and unknown can be catalogued and meted out under the prussian model, through the socratic method of pedagogy. It's a way to standardize something spiritual, vague, and confusing.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

To be fair, if your magic or world building, hinges on, or confirms, any kind of deity, religion should be part of literally everything. I also like the idea of different schools and educators existing, with different philosophies on what magic really is, and how best to teach it.

[@greenben3744]

The worst thing about the Harry Potter world is finding out it doesn't exist. The worst thing about Harry Potter is finding out how many are out there. Children shouldn't be property!

[@laurencefraser]

... Doesn't take much awareness of the things going on in that world to make one Very Glad it doesn't exist, honestly. The abuses perpetrated against non-magicals are Constant, even before getting into the normal childhood and teenage awfulness, now amplified by magic, nevermind the racism, terrorism, and so on going on in the broader wizarding world... and that's just in Britain.

[@adamcampbell2787]

Not sure if I missed it or not, but it's worth noting that the college of Roke Island is not the only avenue of education in Earthsea. It's more a place where the really talented students go for a higher-level education, but generally magic is learned via a master/apprentice relationship and treated like a craft. There are weather-mages whose whole job is to manipulate the weather for their home island as necessary. Mages might work as shipwrights and make ships that are reliable or have an easy time navigating home. Magic in the Earthsea novels is generally very practical and used with much restraint, which is informed by LeGuin's Taoist beliefs.

[@prosamis]

Lovely video! Interesting topic. It got me thinking of expanding on the schooling system in my world. One faction there has a culture that venerates military achievement with the highest rank under the emperor are the dragonslayers Made me think about how an education system could be founded to support that goal along with the other well venerated skills and positions in the culture

[@alexmiller9249]

This video couldn't have come at a better time, fantastic.

[@Josh-ye9ol]

The way I usually look at this. At least from a dnd table mindset is magic depends from two fields. Invoke magic, or getting your magic from an outside score. Druids, warlocks, clerics fall into that field it is involves gaining the attentions of outside being to provide you magic. And natural magic that comes from the world and study of it. Alchemy, potions, sorcerer's, wizards, bards so on. Magic that comes from a deeper study of the natural world and how it works.

[@omegalettexyphonophore3111]

15:00 - exactly. There is this bias I guess towards making school the way the modern schooling does it because that's just what we grew up being a part of. I know I had that bias when making my own story. It is annoying because it just invades like a virus but if you notice it, it becomes really jarring, especially things like magical schools. Had to search up the old methods or "academies" and guild systems to know how schools were before schools we know today. Great video by the way, it's good to be aware of these things. Context really matters on this matter.

[@David13ushey]

In my story, most mages get an apprenticeship that varies widely where the priority is to teach them the basics of channeling mana, focusing it through an element, and forming it into a spell. However too much apprenticeship tends to stunt a mage's development, as they tend to think their master's method is 'best'. Academies are for mages that aspire to higher, more recognized forms of magic. The school teaches theory and guides a mage to become a wizard, or a sorcerer, or a warlock, or a witch. All do magic, but in different ways. What the mage does then is up to them and where their magic is useful. Some mages use the peripheral skills of language and math to persue non-magical careers. Of course when you graduate, it's not uncommon to apprentice under a different mage to learn a contrast of mage theory. Around their 40's, they're expected to take on students and apprentices as well.

[@Primalmoon]

One advantage of the mass magic education system is it helps preserve one of the traits of magic users of them being wise old people that know about everything that end up talking over the lay person's head without realizing it. In a world where the random lay person doesn't go off to school, but wizards do... You don't go to the weird old wizard who lives in the woods only when it comes to specifically magic potion making because that's all he studied in school... No, you expect the wizard to make potions, predict the future, know the properties of all manner of nasty beasts that might go bump in the night, know some special cures, break enchantments, act as a king's advisor, possibly cast curses, give cryptic clues to adventurers, and invoke powerful spells that make you believe in miracles. Isn't that what a modern generalist education is all about? I took chemistry classes (potions), learned some world history (so I can make predictions about how other events might play out), biology classes (so I know a bit about animals and general health stuff), health classes (eat this fruit and that scurvy will go away...)... Some economics classes that I only vaguely remember so I may mumble a lot and be cryptic about it...

[@soren3569]

Funny thing--many US schools have Driver's Ed classes. It's how I learned to drive. So... yeah. On the broader subject, Hogwart's 'system' works, but only IF you assume that there is, indeed, further education that is more specialized. Hogwart's then serves as something akin to the Sorting Hat--instead of matching your personality to a House, it determines which area(s) of magical aptitude are of the greatest interest to those who are magically gifted. Indeed, it might have formed as a result of the founders realizing that the older 'apprentice/master' system often resulted in mismatches that squandered magical talent because someone who had a natural knack for combat magic wound up with someone who is only capable of teaching herbalism. But I agree that it only works if there is, essentially, a system of colleges/trade schools that serve as more in-depth and focused study of a single area of magic. If, OTOH, it is supposed to serve as the whole of the training, then the 'study everything all at once' approach is folly, as you suggest. Of course, this discussion also ignores a key factor--audience. Hogwarts and anime are targeted at youth--not necessarily young children, but most at least are meant to be of interest to teenagers. And teens mostly know the traditional educational models of Western society. (Japan's system is similar enough to that of Europe and North America to translate pretty well.) So a big reason for the current mode for the Hogwart's style is that it provides an easy buy-in for the target audience.

[@thadgray3701]

This was a great video, much appreciated. I have been wrestling how to reconcile the DCC sorcerer magic user which seems more oriented towards the art approach vs the DCC Dying Earth Magician magic user that seems like it favors more a trade style or perhaps even the “weirding way” of Dune. Your arguments helped me visualize it better.

[@jymbreitbach967]

"can you imagine a school taking time out of its syllabus to teach its students to drive?" Yes I can it's called driver's education and it happens every year here in America

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

This is accidentally very timely: I just started watching The Bureau of Magical Things on Netflix, and by episode 3 I am having a LOT of questions about the organization and effectiveness of the education of young magical beings. Comparing with Earthsee or even Hogwarts has not helped yet, more to the contrary. (continues to watch from 7 minutes onward)

[@romanrambler938]

I think Naomi Novik justified the magical school pretty well in her Scholomance series, while also having a powerful and dangerous magic system. Yes, the school is very dangerous with lots of students dying before graduation, but they have a better chance in there than out in the world where magical monsters can come after them more easily. It was also originally built by the wealthy just for their own children, but later they opened it up to poorer students to provide more meat shields for the rich kids. Meanwhile, poor students are willing to take the risk because, on top of it still being safer than spending puberty outside, they have a chance to get accepted into an enclave (basically fortresses for the rich) by helping a rich kid make it through school.

[@ivanpenz8780]

Awsome video! I'm thiking of running a magic academy campain and I love your takes on this kind of stuff

[@adam-k]

Learning in the middle ages was pretty much like going to Oxford, Cambridge or the Paris colleges. That is a college originating from the middle ages. Authors copy those colleges because they are the known middle ages colleges. If you want to depict a university that is standing for a thousand years you can just copy one.

[@SusCalvin]

The empire in WFRP has magic colleges. It also has similar elite schools for law, engineering, medicine etc. They are close to renaissance education centers. Exact curriculum is loose, students go to one lecture or another around town. You are probably supported by a patron or family. Most people are not part of these elite schools. They apprentice under a guild master or pick up skills on the job. There is no school for hedge magic, boatmen or barber-surgeons.

[@SusCalvin]

In Shadowrun, there are few special magic schools. Magic is a very specialist education inside the greater education system. MIT&T has courses on element magic as well as programming and fire engineering.

[@mecha-sheep7674]

One can also find inspiration into antic institution like : - pythagorean sect/schools and Plato's academy - Nalanda's university (indian bouddhism, grammar, medecine, mathematics, logic, astronomy, alchemy) - Academy of Gondishapur (medicine, philosophy, theology, science) in zoroastrian Persia - druidic "colleges" were probably similar to pythagorician school, teaching a variety of subjects but probably had even more political power.

[@Alche_mist]

The magical Lyceum in my DnD world is pretty much a hybrid of Plato's academy, medieval European universities and modern-day research university. Is it full of plot holes? Nyeeeh, probably. But it's fun, imaginable and useful for the passing adventurers (go ask a specific researcher about something in their purview - for example, this one professor specializing in weird and possibly cursed magic items, their reverse-engineering and innovation, _of course_ knows a better version of Identify ritual and has a professional curiosity in the weird stuff my PCs tend to bring her).

[@JAH711]

Now you gotta give us some magic schools

[@literalacorn8523]

If you haven't yet, I'd recommend the Scholomance series by Naomi Novik. It depicts a school that has quite specific reasons for being an all in 1 magical education that is horribly unsafe for growing minds.

[@kelpiekit4002]

Bedknobs and Broomsticks has the mail order magic course for a fun bit of difference. I do quite like magic learning from Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell (I admit to having only watched the tv show at this point) where magic is learned by deciphering it from a load of theoretical books. It holds some similarity to Discworld's Unseen University approach where magic seems to have a large knowledge base threshold before arriving at even minor casting, much like schools teaching Shakespeare but not ever expecting students to write a Shakespearean play.

[@mecha-sheep7674]

Murim-like world have martial-arts sects, with various "peaks" that could interest you : - alchemical (usually not the protagonist choice) - formation/array (usually not the protagonist choice) - divination (usually not the protagonist choice) - something something martialartsy (usually the protagonist choice) - others (varying depending on the world) Thing is, they all need each others, thus their presence in nearly the same place. The "education" is often separated into two phase : - generalist education, where kids/students (age varies) learn a little of everything - specialist education, dispensed in master/disciple relationship, usually after some kind of ranking competition, where most senior masters get to chose first their next disciple Then, there often is another separation, between outer-core disciple and inner-core disciple. And when the martial-art sect falls on the "demonic" side of thing (in the chinese sense of the term), students who fail to reach a certain level and to join the inner-core often become slave/disposable canon-fodder for the rest of their lives.

[@GoranXII]

I think the Unseen University from T. Pratchett's _Discworld_ series mostly avoids this trope. Admittedly, it features the staff and (theoretical) teachers far more than the students.

[@DiakosDelvin]

Which is only reasonable as UU has considerable... wastage among students, be it from expulsion, explosion, possession or quitting the third year because you 'd rather play it safe and take up shark-juggling in Fourex.

[@GoranXII]

@@DiakosDelvin We don't actually know the loss rate amongst students. given that wizards come about by being the eighth son of an eighth son, you'd have to imagine that the number of students enrolled each year isn't terribly large to begin with.

[@rhisands2063]

@@DiakosDelvin The UU's approach to student safety is hand the bucket of ooze that was once a child back to the grieving parents with the comment of "we warned them not to do it". Having the talent to do magic is far more common than having the talent to survive being able to do magic is.

[@Coid]

A D&D crossover fanfic I ran into a number of years back called Harry Potter and the Natural 20 made the observation that Hogwarts is spectacularly dangerous and thus a wonderful place to earn XP in a semi-controlled environment, or at least one where you had reasonably reliable access to a safe place to rest between encounters.

[@jocelyngray6306]

Interesting you mention Religious education, my setting's main university is run by the Church of Chivalry and trains knights, priests, and the nobility. The nobles come from the ancient Knights' family lines, but non-nobles (who can afford it) can learn at the university.

[@doodlePimp]

I think viewing magic as an art form is the best option for maintaining mystery. Unfortunately it is the worst option for converting magic into a game system or giving readers a sense of power levels.

[@KynMites]

I'm stealing a second comment here. Mass education *should* be about standardization. "Everyone who graduates from this school should have this base line of knowledge." I will grant you our modern system could use work, but that is still a valuable thing. If your society operates on writing, then everyone better have the same opportunity to learn writing. If you are relying on people working it out as they grow, you will end up with people who are overly specialized in one area and incompetent in others. With Harry Potter, I think part of what it gets right is that every student needs to have a chance at learning all the basic disciplines. After 5th year, they can choose to drop classes to specialize in those that might go towards their career. Those lower grades need to provide a baseline for both real-world day to day activities everyone uses (see reading writing and basic maths) as well as the foundations that will eventually lead to specialization. Not everyone needs to learn high-level herbology, but they do need to know the common types of plants that they might interact with day to day. Those children who will eventually go on to be herbalists also need a chance to find out if they are interested in the subject before they dedicate higher educational time to it. For young children, learning should be formal enough to prepare them for the level of formality they will be expected to have as an adult, as broad enough as to be play-acting their possible future professions.

[@RedAngelSophia]

Can I imagine a school that takes time out of its day to teach students how to drive? Well - I don’t know about the High School _you_ went to - but the one _I_ went to had a class called “Driver’s Ed”. So yes - it’s easy for me to imagine a school that does that because when I was that age I _attended_ one.

[@fiendishrabbit8259]

That "historical anomaly" of valuing education for its own sake is by now over 2500 years old and has been continually available to the people who could afford it since the 15th century (taking a brief 1000 year break between the collapse of the Roman/greek academies and the new universities beginning to be influenced by the renaissance ideals). Ie, the liberal arts ideal of education (the trivium and quadrivium for 7 arts in total). This isn't british. This is a pan-european ideal of education that has only fallen out of favor relatively recently because of the impossibility of actually learning in all you need to know in a specific subject within a human lifetime (but was the norm before the 20th century). It's been restricted in the past because of economic and class consciousness, but all of the nobility (anyone who was anyone) as well as the rising meritocratic classes of the 16th-19th century. The main difference in the Harry Potter universe is that they're expected to be done with it while they're young, while in Early modern Europe it was a way of keeping young nobility usefully occupied until they were ready to take responsibility for managing the estates. In the Harry Potter universe the wizard society is very much a society of economic surplus, of meritocracy (although there is pure-bred vs muggle, in effect talent matters more than heritage) and a universe where they need to find and nurture the people with broad talents. So academies makes some sort of sense in that regard. However. You're also missing the point where the Harry Potter schools are not just schools, they're also centers of power. Means of control. They have schools because they don't want apprenticeships where some talented dark lord of wizardry rises out of nowhere where he was taught by some secretive wizard mentor (which would definitely have been an option for many of the more powerful families). They want them learning in public and under the eye of authorities and a group of wizards keeping an eye on personal proclivities so that they don't get blindsided as easily. They still get blindsided, but that's beside the point.

[@Direblade11]

Turns out me arbitrarily deciding that my magic boarding school requires rich noble learners to hire adventurers who are willing to go collect materials in exchange for education wasn't an entirely bad idea, I-I think.

[@Trantion]

As I said on Mastodon, the magic class I'd like to see is the class at bard college where they learn how to insult someone to death

[@j3tztbassman123]

My thoughts, the Schools operate some what like GuildHalls, whereby the students are apprentices; and must be able to demonstrate a reasonably mastery over certain tasks.

[@DuskyPredator]

I guess that I was thinking this wouldn't really be relevant to my current idea being worked on, seeing as the plan is more mid to late 20th century university, where magic is just a skill like math. But then I did think that the idea is meant to be after a time when more classical idea is in thr past. So I think that I might put the university in mind that at one time the magic skill trained had it be more of a boarding school, and since transitioned into older students not needing to stay on campus, and more mundane subjects. Some things to hold over along with the sphinx labyrinth built into the most out of the most out of the way areas.

[@dracos24]

21:00 I've always considered that the strange relationship between catholicism & anime has roots in Japan's unique relationship with christianity just as the nuclear bombs influenced a lot of the early anime.

[@Jamoni1]

My take away is that Dumbledore is running a world class learning institution without so much as an Associates degree.

[@joshuapolacheck8879]

Have you read The Troubled Girls of Dragomir Academy by Anne Ursu? She takes the logical implications of the craft system and embeds it in a world deeply stratified by class and gender (where boys with magical potential are apprenticed to men who live as sorcerers on literal aristocratic estates).

[@frostdova]

good video Grunge!

[@JamieAlice92]

Even before Rowling outed herself as a terrible person, I always thought Harry Potter sucked and the entire school system made no sense at all. The students aren’t even taught how to read and write … or count!

[@4mobius280]

The students entering Hogwarts are ELEVEN. In most parts of the world, ELEVEN year olds are able to read and write AS STANDARD. Certainly in Britain

[@JamieAlice92]

@@4mobius280 English and maths classes don’t suddenly stop at 11 tho

[@4mobius280]

@ True, but something as simple as basic reading, writing and counting are all skills that the majority of eleven year olds are capable of.

[@JamieAlice92]

@@4mobius280 would you be happy going through the rest of your life with the reading comprehension of an 11 year old?

[@4mobius280]

@ No. But your initial post claimed that they couldn’t even count.

[@SiqueScarface]

15:15 I have to intervene here. In the last 2500 years, education for education's sake was the privilege of a few, but for them, it also was a requirement. An aristocrat in Middle Age Europe had to learn Music, Literature, History, Law, Warfare, foreign languages and a trade. Peter I., Zsar of Russia, famously was a learned shipwright. Louis XIV., the Sun King, was a ballet dancer on a professional level, even considering today's norms. And in the Renaissance, the ideal of the wellrounded knowledge, the Universitas, was imprinted on people who could afford it. There is a reason, why it is called university - a Middle Age invention of a place where you could learn all human knowledge, be it Medicine, Theology, the Law or Philosophy (basically "Miscellanous Knowledge") - still reflected in today's doctoral titles. The idea was taken from the Antiques, where the philosopher, the man knowing everything that is to know, was the Greek ideal. There is a reason why King Philipp II. of Macedonia had chosen Aristotle as the teacher of young Alexander, later known as the Great. The big problem with today's education is that it no longer can provide for the ideal, which was held up from 500 BCE to 1750 CE. There is too much knowledge out there, and a lifetime of learning is no longer sufficient to even get a glimpse of everything. That's when the specialist arose - the person with intricate knowledge of a special field, but at most superficial knowledge of everything else. And it was no longer frown upon, as the former ideal was aknowledged to no longer be feasible. That's why I think Hogwarts still make sense: At least give young people a broad education on every important topic, so that they can grasp what is out there. Specialization comes later, when they have found the field they can excel at, and feel comfortable in.

[@nctpti2073]

To the extent that magic is formally learnable (classical wizard in D&D), why would there not be formal institutions to teach it? Given how powerful magic is, why would there not be formal institutions to regulate it? When magic is innate, rather than learned skill, then learning how to control that innate power is arguably even more important to regulate and teach. And at what age teaching should begin comes down to at what age it becomes accessible to those who can wield it. This is likely wiser than someone uttering some word they think is nonsense and burning down a neighborhood or worse. J K Rowling is British, so why would it be surprising that Hogwarts is patterned after British schools?

[@tomgon3D]

Short answer: Don’t think about it. Long answer: HP has a soft magic system and the whole setting works better in comic or animated form. It all relies on massive suspension of disbelief and just enjoying the ride. Applying real life logic ruins the - no pun intended - magic

[@daniell1483]

I was thinking the exact same thing about anime being obsessed with Christianity/Christian imagery. Watching anime is like seeing Christianity from a non-Christian point of view and regurgitating the half-digested remains back at us.

[@Coffy-chan]

It's beautiful.

[@evanpereira3555]

Be the Christian Japanese think you are.

[@BewareTheCarpenter]

If magic requires rare and expensive components, running off a demonstration for 1 student would be wasteful when you could show 100.

[@StephenHinojos]

What's interesting is that many of the criticisms he is giving on Hogwarts here on similar to ones I have heard about American education. There are even High Schools in the US that teach driver's ed. So Hogwarts just sort of lines up with what we know about education state side.

[@dakotalange2858]

I mean in terms of specialty in magic there is a difference like necromancy vs healing magic so there would be diverse teaching methods for magic

[@isaaclloyd7508]

Wouldn't that depend on what your interpretation of necromancy is since traditionally necromancy was a type of divination to learn the secrets of the dead that in modern times became more closely related to making golems or puppets out of dead bodies. Although more recently it began to be reinterpreted as the manipulation of life and death in which it can heal and harm in equal measure so it may actually be more related than one first assumes.

[@orchidburch1214]

A magic school is necessary for my world. Magic shows in a child at around age 7, and the students must be sent immediately to the school to learn to control emotions. Otherwise, any uncontrolled emotion will send magic in unexpected and often dangerous directions. The school has enough mages to control the childish emotional magical outbursts until the students learn to do it. Classes are given in healing, history, government and other areas to prepare them for their future roles. But no one can leave the school until they can control their emotions. Those with the highest magical abilities are groomed to be part of the ruling class. However, the school plays a small part of my trilogy. The central time in a mage's life is when the dwarfs make a magical crystal for each student. The stones are used to put the student in touch with the Creator. Following the Creator and protecting the populace from swordsmen who used to control the poor with weapons is their purpose. Of course, they don't always do it right and sometimes protecting the poor is forgotten when they pursue other topics. (otherwise, I'd have no stories to write.) But the system has worked for almost 1000 years. Not many mages are disbarred and even fewer are imprisoned for not controlling their emotions.

[@EvelynNdenial]

the master/apprentice relation to start, then magic users of similar specialty join together for its various benefits turning into a sort of guild, that morphs into many many proto colleges, these colleges band together into a university, a problem develops with students joining the university being underqualified, someone with power recognizes the need to establish a private school to teach all the basics needed to begin university. now you have magic hogwarts, only it's all math history writing etc. and the fundamentals of magic and a bit of theory towards the end. all the good dangerous stuff gets saved for second year and on uni students. less magic school and more school but with a bit of magic. still some room for hijinks but the stakes are lower.

[@devinlupei5071]

Magic schools are recent? Are you sure? Romania has legends of a boarding school underground where young boys are taught how to control the weather, deal with spirits, and get dragons.