Why Are Sonic's Friends Hated?

[@destroyerkitty9434]

Sonic’s cast being so panned makes me sad because the rich cast of characters is probably my favorite part of Sonic as a whole.

[@SonicTheory96]

I agree wholeheartedly

[@bluekel615]

Same, that's the best part imo

[@blackwhole3389]

Start reading the IDW comics. Its more about the other character than sonic and the stories are also cool

[@LannyLeArtist]

Yeah

[@Oli6906]

Same. I love the other characters almost more than Sonic himself

[@Chucklestheechidna128]

Without side characters you get a super repetitive story of protagonist against an antagonist and no depth to it

[@tailsprowerfan2729]

That’s the 2010s I’m a nutshell

[@loiiysailor1177]

It just broing

[@robertlupa8273]

@@loiiysailor1177 It's just Boeing

[@loiiysailor1177]

@@robertlupa8273 what?

[@brandonwilliams6119]

@@tailsprowerfan2729Completely unrelated but I feel Megaman 9 was the start of all that Nostalgia Pandery stuff many games would do later on. Lol we even got Megaman 10 in 2010!🤣

[@Gnidel]

I think the problem is obsession with Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Shadow. They get more spotlight than the rest, usually it's either them or nobody. Instead they could have done some crazy mixes and matches with rotating and new cast. How about a game about criminal underworld with Rouge, Fang and Babylon Rogues? Or a story about Chaotix solving a case for Blaze? Sideline the main cast for a bit to leave place for others.

[@latemanparodius5133]

Alternatively, keep it at Sonic + 2 others, but swap the other two every now and then. Instead of Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, why not mix it up? Sonic, Amy, Shadow? Sonic, Cream, Vector? Sonic, Rouge, Espio? Keep Sonic, since he's the titular character and for those that just want the go fast experience and expect him. The various playstyles and personalities of the other characters lend variety of stories, while limiting it to just 2 avoids the problem of not enough dev time to the other characters' routes. Expand on the interactions of the others. Heck, after enough variations, maybe try branching out with Sonic universe non-Sonic games again. Seems like they keep trying to do so every now and then, but fumble somewhere along the way. Depending on the character, perhaps an entirely different style of game might be possible. A Stardew Valley-like game centered around someone like Big might be fun. Raising Chao as the livestock, fishing, etc. Maybe include a minigame of listening to some other character's tale of what they've been up to, which involves playing an old school level.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

​@@latemanparodius5133 funnily enough, Sonic being chums with Espio or Vector would probably make the most sense, seeing how one of them could definitely try to help Sonic with an investigation or something, while Knuckles IS LITERALLY THE GUARDIAN OF THE MASTER EMERALD, WHO SHOULDN'T EVEN LEAVE HIS POST Either that, or bring back Mighty and Ray

[@tatsuostatic8567]

Yeah this obsession with those four is overused. I was tired of Sonic always interacting with Tails and Amy. I'm fine with him and Knuckles talking. For Shadow, I hate it

[@bowmaj8666]

They mostly use those characters because they are the ones who will least likely get unfairly criticized for some bonkers reason or another.

[@johnpett1955]

I would like a game about Team Dark. (Shadow, Rouge, and Omega) and I'd like them to be friends like they were in heroes and 06 for once.

[@internetloser2336]

Please give us more Blaze Sega. She has so much untapped potential and she absolutely needs more love.

[@SonicTheory96]

A Blaze centered spinoff game that takes place in her dimension or kingdom would be sweet imo

[@internetloser2336]

​@@SonicTheory96the best about Blaze is the fact Sega hasn't changed her character too much over the years from her first appearance in Rush. She's definitely still retains her low tolerance for mischief attitude but is also pretty friendly once you get to know her. I'm honestly kinda glad Sega has been leaning more into her Rush rendition rather than her 06 one a bit more over the years.

[@RW1A]

Id love to have a console blaze focused game unlike the only two ds games shes playable in. I love sonic rush...

[@tatsuostatic8567]

Blaze and a few characters are the only ones that fans still love. So much potential and yet they continue to not make her playable and give her more roles

[@parkergreen2704]

There should be a joke in the games where Blaze chases a red dot.

[@ZenithintheMaking]

Sonic is a cool, free spirited adventurer who fights for good alongside the friends he makes along the way. The fact that he keeps meeting more people who has relevance into every new adventure isn't something that shouldn't happen. But it's more so the fact that the people that ALREADY exists just fade away without a reason anymore as time moves on. Making the cast TOO large without any of them having lasting character development or not bringing them back to games soon enough to REMEMBER how they developed. I don't think this will ever change. It's massively disappointing and it is a big issue if this drags on. But our love for the characters can pull through an all sorts of other ways even if Sonic Team won't 😊

[@jimmyhook4852]

Especially like say... Blaze the Cat for example? :3

[@ZenithintheMaking]

@@jimmyhook4852 yeah sure~ Including Blaze 💜🐈👑

[@jimmyhook4852]

@@ZenithintheMaking :3 Man I tell ya... I still hope she can be playable again one day. That is my Sonic fan dream for life, especially with me being a diehard Blaze the Cat fan. X3

[@sliceninja4546]

Blaze legit has a whole dimension that you could explore. The same with Silver since he is from the future.

[@jimmyhook4852]

@@sliceninja4546 Got that right. :)

[@servedbot7377]

Sonic with many friends = more spin off games potential. I personally want SEGA to give sonic a break once in awhile. Sonic forces was a good start by allowing players to be a custom character.

[@banjo9158]

Unfortunately I think Sega don't have that many studios that can work in many spin-offs for Sonic games, and if they have Sonic Team working on them, than they will have less time to work in a Sonic game, that will probably get rushed, so time is the thing that can't be wasted.

[@servedbot7377]

@@banjo9158 if the game is a success, they can hire hardlight to make spin off games for them while sonic team work on the main titles

[@banjo9158]

@@servedbot7377 They did hire Sumo Digital to make race games for them. so it is possible, but Sonic Team would probably want more control in say, something like a Tails solo game.

[@bowmaj8666]

While I do agree, I think after Sonic 4 it's safe to say that Sega have almost given up trying to give any character other than Sonic any spotlight, especially after that annoying character countdown that they did leading up to the release of that game. God, that irritated me. It was like they were just winking at all of their harshest critics going "Yeah, look! See? Sonic's lame-o friends won't be coming in and ruining this perfect Sonic game! Yeah, we get you, we're on the same level!" All the while ignoring all of the people who actually like these characters. Seriously, no franchise should ever have to cater to people who don't like it in the first place.

[@This-is-a-commentt]

If you had the heroics, personality and word view of sonic, you’re bound to make a lot of friends, let’s be honest here

[@MysticMorigan1998]

Yeah like, he's super friendly. His personality is the same as the guy who genuinely asks how you're doing and is always pretty happy and preppy all the time. He's a nice person and fun to be around, and will even stick up for someone when someone is wronging them.

[@LuznoLindo]

The sad thing is the people who hate Sonic's friends so much are likely people who have no friends at all in real life. I don't see someone who hates the fact a fictional character has companions having much of their own.

[@lezlue2273]

The way I see it, the problem isn't that there's "too many characters," the problem is that the characters never get utilized in stories or game play, which makes the characters look useless.The problem isn't the number of characters, it's how Sega never uses them for anything meaningful. If Sega would just use the characters and use them in stories that are actually well written, then no one would be complaining about "useless characters" cause the characters wouldn't be useless. I never hear anyone complain that SA2 had too many characters in it, of course not, because in that game you got to play as someone besides just Sonic and each character plays a meaningful role in the story.

[@snakey888]

The problem with sa2 isn't that other characters were useless, but that they and their crap gameplay overshadowed the good gameplay.

[@khaosklub]

that's only because people forgot about the other characters. once you complete the game, you can just play through sonic and shadow stages. the other 2/3rds of the game was not as enjoyable

[@YourUncleBenis]

@@snakey888 WRATH OF ZEUS! ⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡

[@YourUncleBenis]

The IDW comics have stories where the side characters are pretty well used, and the original comic characters fit in perfectly.

[@kitsunephantom6155]

@@khaosklub Speak for yourself, bro - I loved all of SA2

[@TheLastBabyMan]

I think we need more Eggman friends to balance it out, like canonize the Battle Birds and Egg Bosses for future stories and spinoffs.

[@banjo9158]

Or just bring back Metal Knuckles

[@FatherOfGray]

Was going to say something like this. The problem with Sonic having so many allies is that it makes Eggman seem like less and less of a threat when all of those friends are actually fairly competent and all Eggman has are his comparatively mostly incompetent creations. I know the Zeti crew had mixed reception, but I feel like Eggman having more flesh & bone allies (even if they're only allies conditionally) is a step in the right direction to level the playing field.

[@neonoah3353]

Problem is not with the sonic characters that are added, or with the amount, but with the fact that they are 1 and done, rarelly they get more screen time or importance, amy, who is a very close and important character, took so long to actually have some growth to her character, imagine any side characters that are 1 and done...

[@t-wrecksthenerdasaur7468]

I don't have an problem with Sonic's friends, but I think the issue, at least within the games, is a lot of the times (at least in the past) Sonic Team has not done a great job making these characters fun to play as. Lots of people like Amy, but prior to her more recent appearances (Origins, Superstars, Frontiers DLC) she has been pretty awkward to play as. Even Knuckles had issues in Adventure 2 and '06 despite being a very popular character. It seems like Sonic Team is on a perpetual grind and just doesn't have time to test these characters out and fine tune them to be fun to play. Of course SEGA seems to have responded to these issues by thinking fans hate Sonic's friends, rather than they just hate the way they play. I'm actually happy to see at least some of the other characters being playable again in more recent titles, especially since it seems like they learned their lesson and are making them more fun to play as. Here's hoping Dream Team is good...and also ends up on anything other than just Apple Arcade -_-

[@Ranni]

Great video! Sonic is a globe trotting adventurer, I find him having friends all over the world to be a crucial aspect of his character. Having his friends introduced in mainline games only deepens Sonic as a character and fleshes out his world.

[@SonicTheory96]

Perfectly stated 😁

[@supersonicmario56]

Strange how no one complains about Mario's friends who don't have much substance to them (the only exception being Rosalina). At most they all have some kind of quirk to their personality but that's it. They never really expand upon them in creative ways. Luigi x Daisy for example. They've hinted that these 2 have a thing for each other but they don't do anything with it. Or Wario. They don't expand past anything that says more than "he's greedy". They've even implied that he's the wittiest Mario member (Mario Party 3) but they never focus on that, just "Wario is greedy". But when someone like Shadow the Hedgehog gets an in-depth backstory, a story that respects that backstory, and the character development with supporting characters to boot, it's panned for being "edgy".

[@pinksywedarnoc8017]

I feel like Mario games they never expand on the characters because they don't focus on stories on a higher level from the start and I am okay with that because they don'tneed too. Plus they have been playable way more times than any Sonic's friends.

[@supersonicmario56]

@@pinksywedarnoc8017 Only when spinoffs are involved. At least with Sonic you'll often get to play as the other characters in both spinoffs and various mainline games. Rarely is a character other than the Mario Bros playable in a mainline title, besides the Toads (and technically Yoshi)... Only just now with Wonder has Daisy become playable.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

@@pinksywedarnoc8017 but Paper Mario though

[@Squirtle_Squad_Supremacy]

Yes though Mario's Spinoff games go crazy but the mainline games just go Mario Luigi Toad (not even the main Toad, just these random ones) Yoshi is a tool in game except for Wonder Peach is damsel in distress Bowser is villain And everyone else is kinda gone, they added easiest mode Nabbit, and easier mode Toadette for WiiU though In conclusion Spinoff > Mainline Mario Games

[@SBaby]

Honestly Sonic's friends are the best part of the Sonic franchise. I think the people that hate them are the people that just want a brainless game with no real plot and Sonic running fast. But that's not what Sonic is. It hasn't been what Sonic is since the Adventure games. In fact, I'd put it this way. The people that hate them are trapped in toxic nostalgia (Sonic started out alone in the first game, but gradually gained friends along the way). Mind you, not all nostalgia is toxic, but some is. Any kind of nostalgia where one feels that their past is more important than someone else's future is toxic nostalgia. The only Sonic game in existence where Sonic did not have allies is the first game (and its versions for the Master System and Game Gear, and neither of those are canon). Imagine if every Sonic game was just Sonic running through levels and fighting Eggman at the end. What would be the effective difference between them? Why would anyone want to just basically buy the same game over and over again? Sonic's friends are what makes the games dynamic, and what makes them diverse. The fact that he has allies that are often playable in the games is one of the things he has in common with Mario. Better yet, imagine if the creators of the Mario games said one day, 'You know what? Mario's allies all suck. We're going to get rid of them.'. Then they retcon them all out of the franchise and only have the games be Mario fighting Bowser. You know how boring that would get really quickly? Allies are important in a long running franchise.

[@TheSwordsman100]

Heck it wasn't the case in the original Classic Era either, its just that the US and European branches overly simplified the lore and made up their own stuff that gave off that impression. Chaos was implied in 3 before he debuted in A1.

[@verdragon5591]

Double heck, concept art for the original Sonic The Hedgehog showed Sonic in a band with other characters, so he's never _really_ been alone

[@GoldLight73]

That last paragraph hits especially hard, because Nintendo DID basically do that for Paper Mario. It went about as well as you’d expect.

[@SBaby]

@@GoldLight73 The difference with Nintendo though is they learned their lesson (at least it appears that they did). Also it wasn't an outright retcon. They just weren't included in the later games.

[@supermaximglitchy1]

“Why would anyone want to just basically buy the same game over and over again?” tell that to the FIFA series

[@YoMamaBih]

You can't tell me that characters like Blaze and Shadow don't enhance the story when they're utilized in a realized story. I miss them because the stories in the past couple of games have been dry.

[@nomnom2407]

Nowadays, we hate that Sonic's friends aren't playable as often.

[@lasercraft32]

The Mario series has a huge cast of characters that Nintendo underutilizes, and that fans love to see... And Mario characters have little to no story or characterization usually. Just think about how its like for the Sonic Franchise, which has a lot of expressive characters with deep backstories and interactions. Its sad how Sega threw them under the bus.

[@e-122psi3]

I think the big problem with the supporting characters was that there was this long period where they weren't that, SUPPORTING. As in rather than being built around Sonic's universe and to help develop it, it was happening the other way round. Characters were no longer interesting variations of Sonic's core gameplay with a balance of the traditional mechanics and new abilities, but completely abstract styles nothing like Sonic, with the normal gameplay taking a increasingly further back seat. Same with the story and backdrop. When Shadow came in especially, everything converted to befit HIS character, this dark anime town world that Sonic looked like an alien in. There are many creators within the games and comics that even admited they didn't give a crap about Sonic's original world or even Sonic himself and I think that is where these new additions started to become more insufferable for me. They were becoming the centerpiece and taking away the identity of the franchise. There's no problem letting characters have a big moment in the limelight, we got that as early as Knuckles, but you have to remember the core they are meant to be built around. I think that's why Sonic '06, ironically a title outright called Sonic the Hedgehog, was considered the last straw, since it spent the overwhelming majority of the time forcing these other characters and gameplay concepts onto you with a very small percentage being traditional Sonic (not helped by the execution being wonky at best, it was variety over substance). Sonic didn't have too many friends, he had too many lead characters who don't co-exist with what builds the franchise. It's why the recent return to multiple characters is being better recieved because ultimately the core of Sonic is still there and you have the choice of liking these character or not.

[@DSmith3279]

Couldn't have put it better myself. Sonic's friends weren't a problem until they started to overshadow Sonic. So people started to reject them and everything they stood for. I mean, that's why part of the marketing for Sonic 4 was meant to hype people up over the fact that Sonic was the only playable character and was the sole focus of the game back when the sentiment around Sonic's friends was very negative. For crying out loud, in 06, Sonic felt like a background character in his own game. While he and Eggman were screwing around with the nothing burger struggle for Elise, Shadow and Silver were center stage being the true stars of the game. Facing down and interacting with the new threat of the game and being in the midst of the main plot line. So yeah, back then the "Anti Extended Cast" sentiment was warranted and that's why alot of Sonic games afterwards steered away from "Sonic's stupid friends".

[@SBaby]

@@DSmith3279 The problem is that it's easy to overshadow a character that has all but no backstory or character arc in a franchise that becomes story driven. The supporting cast in Mario games overshadows him ALL THE TIME (because that's what happens when you have a mostly silent protagonist, everyone else has to be larger than life), yet they were never a problem and Mario remained successful. And that's because Nintendo just went with it. They accepted that the supporting cast would overshadow Mario and often become more popular than him. So they made the games less about Mario and more about the world he is in. You still play as Mario, but the world that the Mario games take place in, is now its own character instead of just an obstacle for Mario to get past. In Sonic, until quite recently, I would've been hard pressed to actually figure out where the hedgehog even originated from in canon. In the games, it's still difficult to do. And while he has a personality, he's never given much in terms of an arc, outside of things that relate to - you guessed it - the SUPPORTING CAST. When you have a franchise that relies on story development, you need to develop ALL OF IT, and not just parts of it. Otherwise, Sonic needs to become a silent protagonist, which is never going to happen. Since this won't happen, then the goal has to become giving Sonic a real arc. And I don't mean a new random character shows up and makes him a knight for a day or a werehog for a week. I mean an actual full-on character arc where he discovers over the course of many games things about himself and his race that nobody ever knew beforehand. Why are there so few Hedgehogs in the world? Why does he have the speed he does? And where did he come from? These are things that can be addressed in the games, and by all accounts Sonic should be interested in getting answers to these questions. Hopefully Ian Flynn does this, because it's needed badly. Do this, and maybe the supporting cast that they're afraid of overShadowing Sonic with will stop overShadowing him (hint - they did this with Shadow and it led to one of the most popular Sonic games of all time; big shocker, people actually LIKE having character arcs in their Sonic games).

[@stephaniejohnson5361]

luckily Sonic team is learning their lesson. Instead of making a new playstyle for each character they are making all of the characters have Sonic's playstyle but with unique abilities. Similar to the classic games

[@e-122psi3]

@@SBaby I feel like a key difference with Sonic and Mario is what I mentioned, Mario's cast are still designed to compliment Mario's original world and style. For Sonic it slowly became the other way round. '06 was Shadow and Silver's world, a dark anime backdrop that Sonic and his earlier co-stars barely flourished in. His mechanics were also so unpolished because they prioritised making totally different gameplay styles for these characters over making a solid conventional base first like they in the 2D games. A simple protagonist to me isn't the problem, sure they might not have much of an arc, but they can still be vibrant and likeable and have good dynamics with their cast. Winnie the Pooh and the Muppets for example are loveable simplistic characters. The issue is that despite trying to give the aura of a likeable character, they arguably tried even LESS for Sonic than Mario in that era, making him a background character with an overly flawless personality. Even games like Lost Worlds and Colours, which people slam for having limited stories, I can at least appreciate for showing off Sonic's fuller personality and potential with chemistries.

[@nightwish1453]

I do think rush, rush adventure and unleashed handheld it best in the same vein as the classics did where they had a small list of characters present but their purpose made sense to the story they wanted to tell. Rush adventure’s story does feel like classic sonic just taking advantage of being able to provide more context to what’s happening

[@saffie.taffie]

This is a pretty interesting question. One thing I did notice about the other franchises you mention in the video is that they are not video games. I feel like a lot of that dislike comes from how different the gameplay was starting with SA1. I was thinking about Mario’s playable cast, specifically in Wonder. While they do have a few differences between them, they all for the most part play the same, so the choice of character is, for the most part, cosmetic. That’s why I think people are more welcoming towards Sonic’s classic cast, since they all play mostly similar, with their own spin on things. I think deviating too far from the core gameplay style will def turn off a some people from these characters.

[@SonicTheory96]

I agree, I think that some people really don't like when the gameplay style is switched up on them which is probably the difference maker when it comes to the movies I used to draw comparison. And like you said, while games like Mario have some differences between the characters, they overall play the same.

[@tatsuostatic8567]

Basically the classic era and even the Advance series, fans enjoy the gameplay because some of the characters play the same but with their own unique skill. It kinda works because I do remember Sonic Advance and I had a lot of fun playing with everyone

[@saffie.taffie]

@@tatsuostatic8567 yeah kind of, though I was more referring to general audiences/gaming community.

[@utopian4769]

I think it's because most critics haven't seen these characters in the hands of a writer who knows what they're doing. There's many reasons as to why the Adventure games are glorified and one of those reasons is because those games went out of their way to make the characters out to be more than just an archetype, not even in just the writing of the game but there's even character in their theme songs. Before Frontiers, there was a thick layer of flanderization that messed up the characters over the course of the games. Tails development revolving around being brave and self sufficient was undone when he suddenly becomes a coward in Forces, Shadow is written to be this edgy Vegeta stand in despite not sharing much in common with him outside of having alien origins, Knuckles' obligation to the Master Emerald has been heavily neglected despite being the foundation for much of his own resolve, Amy being a obsessive fangirl who constantly chases after Sonic, etc. For most people who don't know anything about Sonic outside of pop culture and memes, it looks like Sonic's friends are just one dimensional cardboard cutouts trying too hard to ride the coattails of other popular franchises. We as Sonic fans know this isn't true, and that Sonic has earned his place in the mainstream, but one of the consequences of SEGA mishandling the series is how much they've validated the loudest critics by constantly proving them right, and how people see the characters are unfortunately an example of this.

[@michaelodunlami3718]

Mario had way too many friends too and nobody complained about that.

[@quickup7530]

​@@orangeslash1667You have zero capability of trying to understand other people's views. 2000s Sonic fans were more reasonable because they were capable of critical thinking. You 2020s Sonic fans are just incapable of comprehending anything other than your view

[@orangeslash1667]

@@quickup7530 Wow it's amazing everything you said was wrong, nothing you said was right. I didn't say anything about getting into Sonic in 2020.

[@pinksywedarnoc8017]

​@michaelodunlami3718 Yeah because they are brought up way more than Sonic's friends. Mario has WAY more games and most of his friends and sometimes enemies are playable multiple times.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@pinksywedarnoc8017 The reason why Sonic stories is inconsistent is, because even the staff is inconsistent. Shiro Maekawa the writer of Sonic Adventure 2 left Sega after the Black Knight. Worst of all Yuji Naka, the creator himself left Sega during the making of 06. Without him there nothing stoping Sega from changing the characters.

[@JasLamArr91]

Mario can have as many friends as he wants, but when Sonic do it it's bad.

[@cirnosnumberfan6449]

Like Nabbit, who just randomly shows up with no explanation, and it's now a part of the Mario crew, even though we know next to nothing about him, and probably never will.

[@Chucklestheechidna128]

People have a bias against sonic and I don't know why

[@tatsuostatic8567]

Maybe because Mario's friends are more interesting and cooler. Can't really say for Sonic's friends when some of them aren't all that great

[@cirnosnumberfan6449]

@@tatsuostatic8567 Rosalina was the last good Mario character, anyone after that are either forgettable or not interesting. Meanwhile the new Sonic characters like Sage, Tangle and Whisper just keeps fans more invested.

[@tatsuostatic8567]

@@cirnosnumberfan6449 That is true, fans are invested in the IDW characters. You know, nobody seems to notice this but me. Whenever there's a new character in the Sonic franchise that is introduced, it's mostly a female character. Examples like Sage, Surge, Lanolin, Trip and even Ariem are an instant like from the fandom

[@joel1245]

If Sonic doesn't have friends then the game franchises will be extremely empty with just Sonic and Eggman.

[@bloodmoon7018]

Another great example of the general industry hypocrisy that surrounds the franchise, whenever Sonic does anything another franchise does everyone has a problem with it.

[@ligtningdog6399]

Let's be honest here. When Sonic does something, more then half the time, it's subpar/worse than other franchises.

[@bloodmoon7018]

@@ligtningdog6399 Okay, and when Pokémon releases subpar, broken, and/or buggy games like they’ve been doing for the past three years every laughs it off because they “had fun”and gives Gamefreak and TPC every excuse in the book while showering the franchise with endless praise despite its declining quality far below the standards of modern day JRPGs yet no one ever wants to call that out.

[@ligtningdog6399]

​@@bloodmoon7018 Pokemon is different. That isn't a fan base. That is a CULT! Between the games, toys, shows, youtubers, and r34, Pokemon has built up so much good well over the decades that some people are just programmed to like it. Sonic, in the other hand, has not been about to build up good well.

[@bloodmoon7018]

@@ligtningdog6399 And somehow that “good will” absolves them of any and all criticism? Because people are “programmed to like it” it shouldn’t be met with the same scrutiny? I love Pokémon and I absolutely despise the direction they’re taking it. If you truly are a fan of something then you should be willing to criticize it no matter how harsh it may be, that’s how things improve. They should be getting the exact same critiques levied at them like Sonic does, their good will has been sinking ever since X and Y. If what you said was true then the Sonic franchise would’ve died long ago and considering how Sega freely lets people use their copyrighted IPs music and build whole games using their copyrighted IP I’d say that good will isn’t something they’re missing which is more than I can say about a certain DMCA happy company thats name starts with N. If it wasn’t for the fanbase Sonic wouldn’t still be here and it’s not like we’ve never seen Sonic Team make a good Sonic game before either.

[@ligtningdog6399]

@@bloodmoon7018 Did I say Pokemon was above scrutiny? No. I said those guys were crazy. Pokemon fans would enjoy the same slop over and over and over, but it's constantly above-average slop. They only gotten seriously bad with Pokemon Violated and Scarred. But Sonic is anything but constant. For every good Sonic game, there is 2 or 3 bad ones. So despite what crazy fans are like, nothing is above criticism. Pokemon isn't. And neither is Sonic.

[@naturalace5375]

I thought the hatred for Sonic's friends had died down in recent years. I guess not?

[@ayylmao8031]

I think the overall hatred for the series will always be prevalent as long as it exists, no matter how good or bad the franchise gets.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@ayylmao8031 The problem is, the only thing people want is speed. If the character isn't fast like Sonic then it's immediately hated. However in a 3d game it's hard to due that without making the character a carbon copy of Sonic. For example the developers found a way to make Blaze the Cat as fast as Sonic, but also standout in Sonic Rush. In Unleashed Blaze wasn't needed because there's a way to customize Sonic speed and control. Sonic Generations did something similar.

[@ayylmao8031]

@@orangeslash1667 Yeah, sometimes I believe speed is the series biggest accomplishment and simultaneously its biggest detriment. Not only do the levels have to be constructed 5 times bigger than a traditional 3D platformer but it also leaves little wiggle room for other playable characters with unique movesets.

[@snakey888]

@@ayylmao8031 Speed isn't the issue, seeing how many variations of speed gameplay Sega has made as is.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@ayylmao8031 This would explain why Yuji Naka and Sonic Unleash director Yoshihisa Hashimoto left Sega. Even they may have run out of ideas.

[@Red-jt6uu]

1:25: the “too many friends” phenomenon is a very common complaint in anime and manga, particularly shonen. Either characters get introduced with the expectation that they will be important later on only to be sidelined later (basically the entire side cast of Naruto after the time skip) or they add characters that do absolutely nothing besides be cheerleaders for the main character (Yugioh and its spinoffs).

[@TheLetterS_Rebooted]

i think its because every new character became a main character in most series a charater would come along for one adventure and then they'll leave but with sonic the characters just keep coming back and alot of the time they dont have much of a reason to come back and thats probably one of the reasons the characters became so one note because its hard to make every character have depth when theres so many of them

[@annonymousannonymous9586]

Well I'm sure the same can apply for the Mario franchise, they have a bunch of characters that found a lot of love despite having appeared in very few to only one game, yet Nintendo doesn't really bring much attention to those characters very often and puts more focus on Mario himself, even though it would be fun to explore other characters besides Mario every now & again.

[@KittStargazer]

One thing I'd like to see them do more of is make more animal characters that are not either main playable characters or have huge parts in whatever story line they appear in. In a lot of the games it seems like whenever one is introduce, they're always apart of the story or cast of playable characters. Wasn't really till Sonic Boom before they broke that trend and made normal animal characters that were just there to be a character and flesh out the world. In other games though, they'd go to huge rich cities only to find that the inhabitance were more often then not just humans. The general idea is to make the world feel more lively and believable that there are plenty of animal characters that could at any point become more allies for sonic or even against sonic going forward. That new characters don't just pop in out of the blue and exist because of a new game.

[@jordan-the-hound2323]

I just want a mainline game where I get to play as Silver and Blaze again.

[@Crispeaks]

I think a good move would be to start cycling characters once they get a good feel for making it work with the core four (+ Cream) in Dream Team. If Dream Team solidifies that they can make multiple playable characters work again, begin making stories and games that could only be done with Sonic, character A, character B, and character C. All three of them can be old characters, maybe a new one can be made for one.

[@Pepperknight341]

Personally, I think reason stems from Sonic 06, where people blamed Sonic's friends for how the game turned out, when it was just Sonic Team rushing the game out.

[@andrewgreeb916]

To be fair every character in that game played poorly, the speed characters were more bearable though

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@andrewgreeb916 Actually Blaze and Shadow were the best, Blaze's equivalent of the Homing Attack Fire Claw is faster, more responsive and isnt stiff.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

It’s very cool how Sonic has gotten 3 back to back new characters, Sage, Trip and Ariem. And they’re all females too! They’re all cool and interesting characters can’t wait to learn more about Ariem when Dream Team becomes available.

[@AH-is5yg]

sad part is that Sonic Side characters from TV and comics usually get a lot hate and we hate how they treat Sonic and the other main characters. We would like to have only Sonic and the video game characters only and we would like to see more of them in TV and comics including their own solo stories in tv and comics.

[@spritvio639]

I think people didn't like Sonic's friends because of the alternative playstyles that came with them. Back a few years ago when the Adventure games were getting hate a lot of people said they just wanted to play as sonic because they didn't like the mech shooting or the tresure hunting.

[@khaosklub]

exactly

[@bowmaj8666]

But I remember when Tails first debuted. He played exactly like Sonic, yet people still threw hatred on him. Heck, some kids back in the day were even saying crap like "No, Tails ISN'T Sonic's friend! He's just some annoying kid who follows Sonic around and gets in his way! Sonic hates him and desperately wants to leave him in the dust!" Stuff like that is all just unfair hate bias, people seem to have that with practically every character who isn't Sonic, and it's tragically never gone away.

[@artistanthony1007]

That's still honestly dumb, they aren't Sonic especially Shadow and Blaze, them having their own gameplay including moves and abilities with maybe a few things from Sonic yet altered a tad or with their own flair is what what was needed since that game and we & the other characters need that.

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@bowmaj8666If anyone has that ridiculous mindset like IGN, fxck them.

[@bowmaj8666]

@@artistanthony1007 That's what I've been saying for years. However, Sega don't seem to want to listen to reasonable and constructive criticisms, because they're too busy listening to overly critical critics whining "Urgh, Sonic got too many stinky friends, get rid of 'em or I'm never playing another Sonic game ever again, REEEEEEE!"

[@Kattlarv]

I think the main difference is that: Characters in ex: Star Wars are there. And rarely return. Outside of the "main cast". And then the story is over. While Sonic is a recurring franchise. That HEAVILY over-saturates. Like: If we compare to Mario. We have like: Mario, Luigi, Evil Mario, Evil Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and a toad I guess? With Sonic... We have Sonic, Evil Sonic 1, Evil Sonic 2, Evil Sonic 3, Evil Sonic 4, Evil Sonic 8, Evil Sonic 14 Evil Sonic 25, etc. And like: Professor Ghost man is VERY much a Luigi only thing. But if like: Knuckles run into some guy, that guy is then brought in to play ice hockey with everyone the next year. And then shows up in the main continuity comic. And if people return after like, 5 years. They are all "Wait, who is [green knuckles clone]? - Oh that Buckles. - What happened to [purple knuckles clone, chuckles?" there's just SO many characters and clones and various randos, that you have NO idea who is a relevant character, or who will come back. As: They scapped beloved characters to replace with some chuckletruck that everyone hated, and insisted on keeping around for 10+ years. Then added some NEW one instead of bringing back the old, etc. It's all just very... convoluted. A bit like how ex: Justice League or Young Justice got really cluttered by the end, trying to follow 29 main characters each episode. All while having 4 Flash's and 7 green lanterns at the same time. And as stated: Many are just... old characters, but re-branded. Causing some of said heat butting. As they COULD just have brought back character X. So: If any new fans like this new character Y, old fans are just angry as that *could* have been X. And that ALSO mean that X is likely to never return as well. Gameplay I can def see being a thing too. As, some did play... horribly. And was just out of sync with the rest of the game. Sonic games do need more planning to include "too different" characters. As it's always been high pace in some way.

[@TheSultan1470]

Hmmm...

[@benjamincounter931]

they got multiple playable characters right/in a way that everyone can dig like the first times they did it. Make them have a sonic-esque playstyle with different abilities that still make how you play one char vs another different. It seems to be basically what dream team is doing but its a mobile game 💀

[@MayanFrighter100000]

The only reason why Sonic’s friends are hated is because of a few factors, one is that they appeared in a terrible Sonic game, and two is some characters' controls are terrible depending on which game you’re playing them in (look at Big the Cat and Silver the Hedgehog), three is that some have been poorly written in certain games that submit that view to the general audience. Four is the focus on adding too many characters in one game that desperately needs more refinement and time in the oven (look at Sonic 06 as an example). Also, I would love to see a video about Sonic Villians or Archie Characters who should come back, need expanding, and would be great for the IDW comics. Plus can you make a video about how the IDW comics turn Zavok from a boring Bowser to an unrefined Knightfall Bane of the Sonic Universe?

[@pinksywedarnoc8017]

My issue with Sonic's friends is the dev's never do anything or that much with Sonic's friends anymore. They just become cheerleaders for Sonic after their debut game and/or just quickly fade into nothing and don't show up ever again.

[@stratospherica]

Agreed. Until recently there's been very little to the supporting cast except for how they relate to Sonic. I think more recent titles have at least added some meat to the core cast (Tails, Knuckles, Amy) and let them interact with each other without Sonic (particularly The Murder of Sonic The Hedgehog).

[@Piss_Off_Plz]

Just as Sega intended really. After all, Sonic is a mary-sue.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@stratospherica The problem is, the only thing people want is speed. If the character isn't fast like Sonic then it's immediately hated. However in a 3d game it's hard to due that without making the character a carbon copy of Sonic. For example the developers found a way to make Blaze the Cat as fast as Sonic, but also standout in Sonic Rush. In Unleashed Blaze wasn't needed because there's a way to customize Sonic speed and control. Sonic Generations did something similar.

[@johnpett1955]

Well, as for why Silver hasn't appeared much in recent years is probably because at the end of 06, his journey was complete so he had no reason to be in Sonic's time anymore. Kinda similar to why we haven't had Chip from unleashed make a return. As for Ray and Mighty, to be fair, they were pretty obscure before Sonic Mania plus.

[@patrickcarter2829]

I wonder how a solo Silver game would be? We barely see where he comes from.

[@johnpett1955]

@@patrickcarter2829 one that takes place after Sonic 06 might be interesting.

[@Iwidelyoutliveeverything]

they just keep adding one-use characters that latch onto the series like a tumor long after the initial game. there are too many too juggle, even if some of them are decent

[@SuperflyMiceguy]

Tails is my favorite Sonic character. If I can't play as him in a Mainline Sonic game, I won't play it. Which means Boom was his last playable appearance in a 3D Sonic game. Sonic 06 was even further if you don't count Boom. Sonic Frontiers DLC was a godsend in terms of allowing players to play a (relatively speaking) good Sonic game with multiple playable characters with fun and unique movesets from each other. Amy got a massive glow-up with her tarot card abilities too. I'm excited to see where SEGA goes with the extended Sonic cast going forward, as now we have Rouge and Cream in Dream Team!

[@Yuli_Ban]

Great video, and I fully agree with the take that friend hatred is lame. However, lend me your time for a moment to explain why this sentiment exists. I swear it'll make sense with the full context. As someone whose favorite character is Blaze, I've long been defensive of the expanded cast. I've been actively a part of the fandom since 2006, and I was _there_ at the absolute nadir of blowback against the friends between 2006 and 2011. However vitriolic you think the discourse around Sonic and friends is now or was at any point in the past 5 years, you can't even begin to imagine how mean-spirited and radically reactionary it was. 2007 being the worst. You say it's a loud minority of fans. Circa 2007, the loud minority _was_ the defenders of the friends. The vast, overwhelming opinion by fans, critics, haters, and the general public was that Sonic as an IP had lost its way and had ever since 1994. It's honestly astonishing in retrospect how overwhelmingly negative and Genesis-only the discourse had become. Loads of game journalists who still hate Sonic post-Genesis either came to prominence or got their start at this time, and they're still stuck in a mindset that acts as if Sonic 06 was the most recently released game in the series. And let me challenge this notion that Sonic gets flamed for things other series regularly get away with. He absolutely doesn't. The exact same vitriol that led to hatred of Sonic's friends was levvied against other series. Some of the most infamous examples being Metal Gear Solid 2 and Halo 2. In these games, you enter with the base expectation of playing as a specific character, only for the game devs to sideline you with being _forced_ to play as characters you might not have wanted to play and didn't care for. And _that_ is the nuance. People come to Sonic games to play _Sonic_ first and foremost. Having optional side characters is fine, but having multiple mandatory characters with their own gameplay styles causes frustration, especially when the game is janky. Sonic's gameplay in Sonic Adventure isn't perfect and could use more spice. "So instead of programming 5 other side characters, why not focus on Sonic?" Imagine a Mario game where you only spend a fraction of the time playing as Mario and the core game feels raw, a Sly Cooper game where the titular character is only a bit player in his own game, a Ratchet and Clank game that's screwy and glitch-filled because the devs decided to spend dev time adding 6 other characters mandatory to complete the story. That is what happened to Sonic. His friends recieved the same reception as Raiden in MGS2 or The Arbiter in Halo 2- who absolutely were despised by players and fans at the time. Coupled with increasingly scattershot game quality crashing and burning with 06, and you get to the hotly hateful perspective that existed ever since, where Sonic Team's complete inability to realize the rising tension caused such an explosive reaction to the point where some fans now despise the idea of Sonic's friends even existing on principle. Circa 2007 onwards, "Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Dr. Robotnik, Metal Sonic, badniks, there's your cast, now make a game" became codified. I'm honestly surprised Sonic Team managed to brute force Amy into that considering Genesis fanboys hated her all the same regardless of her debut year.

[@TheSultan1470]

Hmm

[@treena9930]

I read the Archie comics (still upset it was canceled). I loved the freedom fighters. That being said. IDW is better in how they manage to juggle the cast. My main fear when I started reading IDW was, "Welp, I better hope I like Whisper and Tangle, 'cause they're going to appear much more than my favorites." To my shock, despite still having a significant role. Those two don't take away anything from the rest of the cast. The comic even does things like giving Chaotix their own issue or an arc that features Knuckles. Really shocking! Sometimes Sonic isn't seen. Which I love cause it shows how good this cast is. Also, I agree that the gameplay factors in the likeability; even beyond that, the polish would be excellent.

[@stratospherica]

So true! I think some of my favourite issues have been the ones where Sonic either is absent or has a less prominent role, because it lets the other characters riff off of each other without Sonic being the focal point. Deepening those character dynamics instead of always making Sonic the hub of the wheel has probably been what made the cast more palatable. Hell, The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog was, I'd argue, really good exactly because Sonic was absent for most of it, letting all the other characters interact in a relatively low-stakes environment (for the most part).

[@treena9930]

I understand the series is called "Sonic the Hedgehog" but I think of Scott Pilgrim. You can have some stories not about the main character, and give some love to the side cast.@@stratospherica

[@stratospherica]

@@treena9930 Yeah I totally agree. Honestly I'd be down for some more spinoff games where Sonic took a backseat too.

[@ridd_L12]

I don't hate that he has so many friends I hate that only like 5 of them stick around and the rest slowly disappear

[@loiiysailor1177]

No body is slowly disappearing , Sega just want people get use to the main four plus Eggman besides they bring Rouge and Cream fully playable

[@TheSwordsman100]

I don't consider professional critics like IGN and people like Egoraptor to actually be fans since they actively hate the franchise. Like you said most actual fans don't have a problem with the supporting cast. Big's story isn't even that bad considering how quick and easy it is and Big himself is a really fun character and really shines in other games. As for Silver? I don't understand why a minority are holding 06's faults as a whole, which Silver had little to no part of, against the concept of supporting cast? Thats hyperbolic, seriously if it bothers you that much and you're that obsessed over gameplay go play Project 06. As for the whole Archie vs. IDW thing, I suspect there is more to it than just characters is causing the spite for these fans as this doesn't seem to be the case for other alternate continuities in Sonic and I know several other fans besides myself that grew up with Archie but also like IDW. Maybe the whole IDW being canon to the games being a status they feel unfairly granted in conjunction with the IDW cast?

[@Kurayamiblack]

After only watching the intro, I want to intentionally offer my thoughts before watching the rest. I think it's because too many of these characters only feel relevant when Sonic is actually there. They have different backstories but until Sonic shows up, none of it matters. The world feels like it's only alive when Sonic is present. Alot of these characters show up for a story, vanish when it's over, and rarely affect one another. Aside from Sonic's closest characters (Tails, Knuckles, and Amy), most of the cast don't interact with one another and the things they deal with never cross paths or interfere with one another in a meaningful way either. All these fantastical places and world changing events become irrelevant until Sonic sees that 1 character again and even then it sometimes goes in a different direction. Long story short, each character represents grand but isolated events that Despite having Sonic in common, rarely connect. And then suddenly everyone's at a picknic table like they're all best friends when half of them seem like they never even met. 😅

[@dcbandit]

I can guarantee that most if not all Sonic fans love the large cast of characters. Go to any toy section and look at their selection of figures, I can guarantee that almost if not all of the characters are out of stock, leaving all the rereleases of Sonic. Sonic with skateboard and grin, Sonic with ring monitor, Sonic with yada yada. Nobody wants more than one or two of the same Sonic, but everyone wants their favorite.

[@yaloolah42]

Maybe if Knuckles just had his HAT and SUNGLASSES back...

[@snakey888]

In games like Sa1, 2, Heroes and 06, Sonic and the iconic series gameplay was effectively relegated to a sideshow, and especially in sa2, Heroes and 06, became a minor part of the games. Imagine buying a Sonic game to play a Sonic game only to find out that only 1/3rd or less of it is Sonic gameplay. And what's there suffers from poor camera, controls, physics, automation etc. So instead of polishing the core gameplay, they instead implemented a bunch of other unrelated gameplay styles, all of which were half-assed in their own right. Doesn't help that they completely missed the point of the criticism with Unleashed. Sure, now it's just Sonic, but still a significant part of the game has nothing to do with Sonic gameplay.

[@EddyTheLion]

He needs more friends ❤

[@Dairunt1]

I don't remember this being a problem in the Adventure games; I guess this is a thing starting with Sonic Heroes as there was a pattern that they would add new characters, underutilize them and then forget about them. Every playable character was vital in Adventure 1 and 2, yet in Sonic Heroes the plot was paper-thin, in Shadow the Hedgehog they provided little to no help for Shadow, in Unleashed they were glorified cameos as they had next to no impact on the plot, only for Generations to turn them into personified "level complete" signs.

[@snakey888]

It was definitely a problem in the sa games, moreso sa2 as the other characters had a lions share of the gameplay, and their gameplay wasn't good, or even resembling a Sonic game.

[@fumetsusozo]

Personally I feel to many obsessive Sonic fans view everything from a bubble. Sonic is an adventure series about him traveling across his world & universe... so of course that means he is going to meet new friends & enemies by default from the very nature of it being an adventurous setting... it would be illogical & flatly dead without new characters! Other adventure series rarely ever deal with this "problem," it is a freak oddity with the Sonic franchise for it to be such a big topic to ever worry about.

[@michaeltaylor788]

Yea never made sense to me.

[@rumbleroller2154]

I DO wonder if I'll ever see another Bunny Rabbot. I kinda had a soft spot for that half-robotosized southern-bell..

[@dylanjones4889]

The issue is the characters are utilized well for like one game and then thrown out to just be a cheerleader in the newer games

[@MrsNeedlemouse]

As someone who grew up on the Adventure era games, I gotta say the biggest appeal of the franchise for me and the other kids back then was always the big cast of characters, basically nobody I knew had Sonic as their fave, we always loved the other characters like Shadow and Knuckles and playing as them was a big bonus for any new Sonic game.

[@abnormallyawesome2062]

I love that there are so many characters in the sonic franchise. It makes the world seem bigger and actually lived in. They give back drop to the world as whole, even if they arent always featured in the story. They arent suppost to get the spot light all the time, that's what the main cast is for and they should be the focus. In my opinion it makes the side characters more unique and beloved. Its a breath of fresh air when we do see them and the story gets more interesting. Like "oh! Havent seen them a while! Yay!" "Wonder what big thing is gunna happen now that this character is here... they have to be here for a reason." Its that little bit of extra and rare spice to the story that makes it that much more good. And honestly, it just makes since for sonic to have an nearly endless friends list... for his extremely friendly and accepting personality type, and the fact that he's a world traveler and fun/thrill seeker, it really just fits with his protagonists/hero type. It would be very weird for someone like sonic to be a loner for no reason. Dude is literally the ride or die friend, so yeah, he's gunna have a few- hundred. Lol!

[@thomashatch3673]

Big is a good example of a character that warrants criticism, especially in SA1. Most of Sonic's characters are alright, I like a great many of them, but when they're poordly implemented, it understandably gives people a distaste for them. As for outright ill-conceived Sonic characters, the only one I can really think of that I genuinely dislike overall is Silver. Cutting him out of the franchise forever would be a significant improvement. His storyline in 06, was the weakest part of the game, gameplay-wise and narratively. Removing him from the franchise would be nothing but a boon, he ever had a good story, and his presence in Forces made no sense either. Also, the games that features these characters need to be not just good but also emphasize Sonic's cool factor while providing other characters with compelling stories of their own and fun gameplay that doesn't stray too far from what makes Sonic generally work. It's understandable when people get tired of the friends when their stories fall flat, the dialogue is boring, and their gameplay isn't up to par. Well-conceived characters can be used poorly. Tails and Knuckles are great by design, for example. Tails and Knuckles were awesome in Sonic 3 & Knuckles and the Adventure games. But then they sucked in Sonic Forces and Sonic Frontiers for the most part. Knuckles, Shadow, and Blaze are my favorite characters by the way.

[@ramenbomberdeluxe4958]

I think much of the hatred came well before the recent eras of Sonic, which, fair is fair, kinda DID drop the ball on the side characters. See, you all probably know it by now, but for a while, Sonic had a MASSIVE spike in hatedom, he became THE punching bag for gamers everywhere, and everyone from ProJared to GameGrumps just kept slandering and slandering and SLANDERING the games. Even the good ones like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2! At best, some folks would concede that Sonics 1-3 (and knuckles), CD, and Mania are good, and PROBABLY might feel generous enough to give Generations a pass, but it often went from "it has merits but i dont personally like it" to "so actually these games are all as bad or close to as bad as Sonic 06", and it became a disingenuous mess.

[@JDueler11]

I know what you mean. I like the characters, but there are just too many of them. The biggest concern I had was there are now too many female characters. I usually have no issue with it, since it may compensating for the male cast. But there are too many of them now. Sticks, Shade, Trip, Tangle, Whisper… A majority of new male characters become villains in the IDW comics, and there’s not a whole lot since the main villain focus is on Dr. Eggman.

[@joeboosta6309]

I dislike the fact that for a lot of years the feature of multiple playable characters got abandoned in the Sonic games, with the other characters only showing up in cutcenes, and I'm truly annoyed about the fact that they made Shadow be an edgeloard when he previously wasn't like that. I've been planning to download P-06 after I learn how to do that, mostly because of how much of a fixed version of Sonic 06 I've heard that it is being made to be, because that game does have multiple playable characters, and because they weren't written wrongly in it. Please may Silver not continue to be playable in only that game and spin-off ones, I want him to be playable in future mainline games too! I don't think that we have to worry about what Shadow will be behaving like in the third movie because the director, (Jeff Fowler,) was involved with the production of Shadow's own spin-off game, so he has knowlege about what Shadow was like in the early 2000s and I've also heard that he's a big fan of that totally cool "Ultimate Life Form," hedgehog character.❤️🖤🦔

[@valmid5069]

Can’t wait for more analysis and content!

[@baval5]

Thing is, how many of Sonics friends to people actually dislike? Maybe the Chaotix, particuarly Charmy. Some people dislike Big the Cat. Maybe Amy in the past but not anymore. Thats about it.

[@michaeltaylor788]

The people who dislike the other characters are a minority and gather around the internet 🛜 to make echo chambers to make themselves seem bigger

[@loiiysailor1177]

it could be from critics opinions cause people to think we don't need Sonic friends , but reality his friends are amazing, people are just stuck in the past , its fun with more characters it's broing it just Sonic and Eggman, if people don't like Sonic friends then this series is not for you either ingore them or leave the franchise

[@loiiysailor1177]

@@Skycrusher insulting me makes you feel good?

[@TheSwordsman100]

The guy seems to be a Games Grump or some other old KZbinr fanboy going off his the other time he replied to someone, so hes not happy SEGA isn't buying their crap anymore and has stopped going with the Meta Era's direction.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@loiiysailor1177 The problem is, the only thing people want is speed. If the character isn't fast like Sonic then it's immediately hated. However in a 3d game it's hard to due that without making the character a carbon copy of Sonic. For example the developers found a way to make Blaze the Cat as fast as Sonic, but also standout in Sonic Rush. In Unleashed Blaze wasn't needed because there's a way to customize Sonic speed and control. Sonic Generations did something similar.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

Funnily enough, even Eggman and Sonic working together is brilliant. If it was similar to other stuff where the main guy hates the main bad guy and that's it would be boring. Here we have Sonic, who, no matter what Eggman does, still doesn't fully give up on the guy. In Lost World the scene of Eggman "sacrificing" himself to save Sonic was pretty brilliant

[@Nothavinit00]

I rarely ever see or hear folks doing this anymore. It was heavily prevalent in 2009, but nowadays....not really.

[@michaeltaylor788]

Yea I mostly hear love for the characters now and wondering why some characters haven’t appeared in recent games like shadow.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@michaeltaylor788 The problem is, the only thing people want is speed. If the character isn't fast like Sonic then it's immediately hated. However in a 3d game it's hard to due that without making the character a carbon copy of Sonic. For example the developers found a way to make Blaze the Cat as fast as Sonic, but also standout in Sonic Rush. In Unleashed Blaze wasn't needed because there's a way to customize Sonic speed and control. Sonic Generations did something similar.

[@michaeltaylor788]

@@orangeslash1667 only a small amount of sonic fan hate the other characters they care more about story and character development when it come to them the people who hate them are just loud and use the internet to sound bigger than they really are.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@michaeltaylor788 The general public doesn't care about story, they care going fast. Since some people have issues with the multiple play styles of SA 2. It gives them a reason to not like them.

[@michaeltaylor788]

@@orangeslash1667 nah the character are fine like I said before.

[@latemanparodius5133]

Mix up who the main characters accompanying Sonic are every now and then. Instead of Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, perhaps Sonic, Espio, Rouge would yield a different tale? Sonic, Amy, Cream would certainly have a different feel. Sonic, being the titular character, would likely have to be included, but Sega has put out Sonic Universe games that didn't have Sonic as the main focus in the past. They always seem to stumble somewhere when they try focusing on someone other than Sonic, though...

[@jacksonvoet8312]

I like most of his friends, and despise their lack of use and such.

[@Mari-lg1wk]

which soundtracks did you use in this video? they sound great

[@SonicTheory96]

Every song in this video is from the "Spark the Electric Jester 3" ost

[@Mari-lg1wk]

​@@SonicTheory96 thanks!

[@CrazyFoo501]

I've always liked Sonic's friend. But a lot of times the gameplay isn't handled well especially Big the Cat in Adventure. Sonic '06 had a lot of good ideas but due to rushed development the execution was terrible and at least a huge portion of Sonic ans have hated the idea of playing as multiple characters ever since. Ironically Project '06 showed how the supporting cast should be handled but Sonic Team still haven't gotten out of the habit of rushing games that need more polish. There's been a lot baffling decisions too. Big being clunky and boring in SA1 was the worst of it. Another example in SA2 having Eggman in Gamma style shooting platformer made sense. Putting Tails in one just to match Eggman's gameplay was a terrible idea and didn't work the way his SA1 gameplay did. Knuckles' Emerald Hunt was somewhat polarizing in SA1 but in SA2 they made the levels a lot bigger to the ire of the fanbase. But the bigger levels never bothered me in of itself save like two levels, it's the fact that the Emerald radar only tracks one Emerald shard/collectable at time that really drags down Knuckles and Rouge's gameplay. There was 0 reason for that. Having a telekentic in Sonic '06 in Silver was an interesting idea, and grabbing debris and enemies with your psychic powers to throw was fun. But he was unnecessarily slow especially when the cutscenes showed his powers can give him a boost. He needed more than a groundpound move to stun enemies so they can be grab, calling his point bank slap with a terrible hitbox pitiful would be an understatement. Ultimately the biggest problem is the lack of of time, effort, and money Sonic Team has been willing to put into developing the side characters, not the characters themselves.

[@Sanimatez7865]

I haven’t played Sonic much but I do enjoy watching gameplays and cutscenes online, what I’ve noticed is that the plot seems very repetitive for a while. Eggman comes up with another plan to cause trouble, and Sonic and his usual group go to stop him and than occasionally we search for the Chaos emeralds. Although I can’t complain much since I haven’t played much of the games, I definitely would love to see the game that invents a way out of eggmans story and more into either new villains or possibly an older enemy that hasn’t been mentioned in years. Or maybe a story that brings eggmans story to an end after many years, either he’s finally gone or he joins Sonic side as maybe an anti hero, similar to Shadow joining Sonic. Cause we’ve seen from time to time in other games when they are forced to work together that they could be a unique duo. Even if he’s not part of Sonic team his tale as the villain would stop finally.

[@michaeleanthonyjr]

One thing that always bothered me was how the creation of new characters would push older characters to the side First there was Sonic, then he gets his friend Tails Then you get his first rival, Metal Sonic Then you get his second rival, Knuckles Then you get his most iconic Rival, Shadow Then you're reminded that characters like Espio exist in Soinonc Heroes Then sonic Rush gives us another Sonic counterpart and one of the most uniquely designed, Blaze, who gets very little to do and even has her original lore retconned Then there's Jet in Riders Then there's Silver in 06 Then I think they stopped making new Sonic counterparts after that point and just focused mostly on Sonic as the only relevant and playable character in games like Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and etc. It has a sorta similar issue to Dragon Ball where Goku's rivals kept being overshadowed by new rivals Krillin > Tien > Piccolo > Vegeta and those overshadowed characters still stick around anyway to contribute very little in the grand scheme of things

[@Multi-fandomEldingArum]

I fully agree. I did get into the franchise because of Sonic’s character, but Silver is my favorite character because of his interesting backstory, his kind and optimistic personality, and his powers. I agree that people may find gameplay in 06 annoying, but 06 did have a bunch of problems, and Project 06 did improve on Silver’s gameplay. I do hope that Silver and some others do get some more spotlight in the games soon. And they don’t deserve all the hate thrown toward them.

[@SonicTheory96]

Silver is such a cool character and I'm really hoping that we see him as well as other more in the future 😁

[@Ability-King-KK]

It's because Sonic's friends don't play like Sonic. That's why they're hated. People loved Tails and Knuckles back in the Genesis days because they played like Sonic with one or two differences. Once _Sonic Adventure_ happened, Sonic's friends were given their own playstyle so they could be even more unique and true to their own characters instead of being "another Sonic". This is also why Shadow is pretty much the second most popular character in the franchise, because he's pretty much a Sonic clone in terms of gameplay.

[@flameosaurus1832]

The problem is that a vast majority of them just aren’t fun to play as

[@theheroneededwillette6964]

I think it’s more that people hate how they’re frequently neglected by Sega in terms of plot, especially outside their debut.

[@justsans.]

Honestly, the only time the cast actually gets done right is mid-late Archie and IDW. It felt like each character had at least one comic they starred in, or at least had a few pages to themself, to just be like “hey, these characters still have personality”, and the games sorta... strips that from them.

[@khaosklub]

The simple reason is that sonic's friends in the 3D games always lead to annoyiing gameplay. sonic fans want fast moving platforming. in sonic 2 and 3, extra characters had unique movesets in a fast paced platforming game. in contrast, sonic adventuree, knuckles is a RNG scavenger hunt, amy about walking away from a simple robot in a boring and slow game mode. gamma is a spamfest shallows 3rd person shooter thing. big is fishing. if all the characters played like sonic's game mode, people whould have been fine. adventure 2 had 1/3 of the game being the scavenger hunt, and 1/3 being gamma's gameplay, when people just wanted fast paced platforming. sonic heroes got rid of the alternate game modes that people hated, but made you play the game 4x over with teams that required awkward mechanics. the 4 times were barely different too, so it really felt like playing the same game 4x. shadow the hedgehog almost came close to that speedy platforming, but was mission focused and relied too much on guns. it was a weird game, people just wanted good speedy platforming in 3D. sonic 06 was overall bad. the friends in that didn't particularly matter, because all game modes were terrible, and everyone was horribly implemented. you liked silver in that game, but most people hated everyone in that game. people don't complain about sonic's friends in the 2D platformers... because they play as they should in a sonic game. amy in the advance games, origins plus and superstars plays waaaaay better than amy in adventure 1. she plays like an alternate character in the same game mode as sonic. nobody hated cream in advance 2 and 3, but weren't fans of her in heroes. it's just that sega team insists on not giving the fans the simple thing they want. look at unleashed, does the same annoying thing, with only 1 character playable. but playing as sonic, it's a runner, and playing as werehog, it's a brawler. people aren't playing sonic for a brawler, and forcing two game modes like that in a game rubs people the wrong way just like forced stealth sections in action games. generations and forces force you to play alternate modes of sonic instead of just sticking to a 3D game and a 2D game separately

[@snakey888]

Nailed it!

[@Starktech98]

SEGA needs to give Sonic team more time to develop their games/stories for all the side characters in the series instead of overworking them💙❤️🦔

[@quickup7530]

Why? People here defend all Sonic crap Sega puts out

[@ligtningdog6399]

Or, hear me out, why doesn't Sonic Team just not try to cram all the side characters into every game?

[@orangeslash1667]

@@ligtningdog6399 They might be cramming them in foe fanservice. Why are they doing this, Sega has changed since 2010 kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5CkfomFqrhnmpo

[@bloodmoon7018]

@@quickup7530 I think you’re confusing them for Pokémon fans.

[@bloodmoon7018]

@@ligtningdog6399 Outside of spin-offs, they haven’t done that since 06, and even then, there’s nothing wrong with having a large cast of characters so long as you use them properly which they have done in the past.

[@tlst94]

What if Big was replaced by Fang the Sniper(8:35 center) in SA1? How'd the latter's story and gameplay have played out?

[@NosBlueade]

As someone in the too many friends camp, I can personally say for me it's not that the friend count is too high, it's that they all are so capable that Sonic ends up looking like the weakest member of the groupings, especially in gameplay when they have all their abilities AND are essentially as fast as Sonic. Takes away from what's supposed to be this anomalous "chosen one" protag except when it does make lore sense like Shadow. In other words, I never see a discourse about Goku having too many friends although I'll admit that example has developed something of the opposite problem, however more fans tend to be accepting of it.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

Yes, but then you have people complaining about little things like "SILVER IS TOO SLOW!!!" in 06

[@lukehendriech3812]

I like most of sonics, friends, rivals and associates with some exceptions though they're more just annoyances to me like Cream and vanilla (though I love that Vector is down bad for Vanilla) but I still like that they exist

[@Sonic-VA-]

The reason why is because the writing (Aka the 2010's) made them bland and for the people in 2000, during Archie's writing with Ken Penders made them very weird.

[@TheSultan1470]

Well, ok, the Archie comics had no significance to the games whatsoever.

[@cheeseburger1293]

I just want to see silver, blaze, shadow, Omega, and a few others get more attention. Silvers my favorite character and I would love to see another team up between sonic, shadow, and silver again in a new game!

[@firestriker3580]

Bruh most people don’t think Jar Jar is annoying

[@SuperMetalyrics]

I hope they show them again, I always thought it felt awkward and creepy when mist of tyem disappeared and tyen only Tails, Knuckles and Amy cane back for YEARS!.. Like it was as if they killed off all the others...

[@chernagast6754]

The issue stems from the people creating the games and comics. They give us just enough to like the side characters or become attached to them, before unceremoniously killing them off, abandoning them, altering major components of their characters (example: Sally suddenly becoming a lesbian for her dead childhood friend after 25 years of being Sonic's girlfriend), or violating the intended spirit and origins the creators of the characters had for them. It may sound hyperbolic, but this steady string of abandonment, re-shuffling, re-interpreting and outright character death borders on a form of mass emotional abuse thrust onto the fandom. Sega knows how to get you interested enough in the characters to get you attached to them, and then with absolutely no more concern for the people who love and financially support their IP, turns them into hollow cash-grabs. There is absolutely no consistency to the character depictions, and people who like the way Shadow is now are going to clash with those who liked the older versions, thanks to that. The fanbase, especially those of us who have been there from the start, have taken enough beatings to look at new characters as baited hooks for money that will eventually be yet another let-down or infuriating twist later.

[@SBaby]

To be fair, in the comics, it wasn't entirely their fault. Many of the characters were eliminated because of Ken Penders' little temper tantrum (seriously, he is by far the single most toxic person connected to Sonic; think about that for a second).

[@ligtningdog6399]

To add on to what you stated, the world building for Sonic IP is a complete clusterfuck. It's impossible to truly write and develop a ever growing cast, if no one can agree on the setting. Mobius? A western creation, so games never use it. Earth? No, because that has humans and no talking animals. They come from Sonic's world. What's the name of Sonic's world? ..............................................................................He's from Earth. That's to say nothing about major, earth shattering events being ignored. The Death Egg, the moon, the Black Arms invasion, the moon, Dark Giga, the moon, Eggman taking control of the planet, did I mentioned the moon?

[@joeboosta6309]

​@@ligtningdog6399 That reference of the moon that you mentioned was probably about the event from SA2 in which Eggman blew half of it up with the use of the space colony ARK's eclipse cannon.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Wait when did that Sally thing happen? I don't remember that. Pretty sure that's just a fan ship.

[@ligtningdog6399]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 From my limited knowledge, the Sally/Nicole relationship was plan that Ian (or at least someone in his writing staff) had for the post-reboot era of Archie comics. Since Sonic is official not allowed to be romantically involved with anyone, they wanted to jump into "that" bandwagon. It's like the Geoffrey St John thing all over again.

[@ShadowoftheMask]

Looks at title: Are we back to 2010s now? I kinda feel like Sonic's friends hasn't been hated in long while ever since Blaze became popular since we are kinda pass now "Sonic is bad because they have different gameplay styles" and more "Sonic is bad because sega keeps mishandling franchise" x'D

[@christopherbradley7149]

It’s mostly just because they’re cringe. Sonic as a franchise is cringe which is why the only people really into it are fans. It’s stuck in this weird place where the writing and acting is clearly meant for young children, but young children aren’t into things like Sonic anymore. They’re into Fortnite, Snapchat etc. I enjoyed Mania a lot because the annoying characters didn’t tell goofy Christmas cracker tier jokes constantly.

[@SorceressRose]

Honestly, when it comes to like Sonic games, I do prefer the casts not consisting of only Sonic, Tails, Eggman and Eggman's henchmen, it's why I don't think Sonic Colors for console was the best, but really liked the handheld version more, because it brought all of Sonic's friends together. Even Sonic Lost Worlds was a hit and a miss for me, because even though Amy and Knuckles appeared in Lost Worlds, they didn't make much of an impact on the overall story. Also the Boom era was also weird, because obviously they focused on the main four, but it was an alternate world, where we only see Shadow and Vector appearing, but nobody else. So many characters were in a blank space for awhile. Also it's funny, IDW has become such a success that Ian Flynn wrote for Frontiers and made the comic characters canon, even though they haven't made a canon appearance in a actual canon Sonic game other than a mention from Sonic. However I am still wanting and desiring the actual return of the Knothole Freedom Fighters, plus introducing Mighty and Ray into modern games canon with updated modern designs, like they did with the Chaotix, who were the last classic era characters to be introduced in the modern era with Heroes.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

Because those people just want Sonic and Egg- sorry, Robotnik only on a loop. Even Mario got Luigi.

[@dvoremay6683]

Id kill for a more populated sonic game. Like even if he was the only playable character setting a game in the idw comic world would be awesome. With the different missions mostly being small scale adventures rather than saving the world.

[@crossfire34]

Sonic has too many characters. Not because of the amount of them, but because of how little they're used. I swear, since 2013 there has been a new character in every game and so far the only ones that reappeared was Zavok and Sage if you count Murder of Sonic That doesn't even include the characters thst came before 2013. It's been years since many of them have appeared in the mainline games at all.

[@rc9145]

Big the cat gameplay could actually be really fun like imagine using the fishing rod to swing around and keep your momentum going and belly flopping to gain height/kill enemies

[@Masonicon]

Cream the Rabbit are the most underrated Sonic's friend

[@joshuathomas5062]

sonic's friends should play a bigger role. especially in 'Sonic and Mario at the Olympic Games'

[@MarvinMartinez2001]

Archie definitely had its weirdest moments though

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

Sonic's friends often feel like when Mario enters a water level, as opposed to how they should feel like when you enter water in Rayman Origins. It should stay snappy and fast but change it to a degree. There is often a slowness and clunky design which holds them back and when you're going slower and smelling the roses it only amplifies that some of the roses are decayed, just like the werehog in Sonic Unleashed. You're exposed to the bad for longer while exposed to the good for shorter for speed fans.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I think the main problem is BALANCING the whole cast, rather than the cast itself

[@GuiltlessGear]

ill never forgive sonicteam for giving these people any power. Because of them, sonic's been stuck in this dull limbo for 15 years.

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

The shooting stages in SA2 is the biggest reason why people hated having multiple characters along with Sonic Heroes where we have to beat the 4 campaigns JUST TO BEAT THE GAME!!! I beat Sonic heroes. I don’t have a problem beating 4 campaigns but, some do have a problem with that.

[@AbdulAhad-hx1ft]

I just wish I could see a modern version of Mighty and Ray again. They did it in the Archie comics and it was really cool, but for some reason it seems sega is dead set on making classic sonic and his world a dimension rather than a younger version of modern sonic and seeing as the only time we’ve seen Ray and Mighty in recent years is in that “dimension” I highly doubt will see a modern take on these characters again