Why Are We STILL Using Old RPG Rules? | Try This Instead!

[@AdlerMow]

I learned to play in early 2000s on a homebrew 2d6 using 4 stats (Str,Dex,Int,Cha) plus a class. I was in awe when I tried D&D and spend 2h making the sheet and only 30min playing. I want lore, artworks and random generators, not rules, but guidelines and common sense.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Sounds fun! Sometimes that's all you need, depending on what kind of game you're going for.

[@AdlerMow]

@@ElderGoblinGames I played for a year and had stabilished a base, run a ring of spies and was about to start a new faction, before the GM moved! But looking at my sheet, I had improved 6 hp and 2 points, one in each atribute, because the GM didn't think improve more than one point in the same atribute in was realistic without magic. But all the loot and friends made mean that our group still got ahead. And we played many modern and horror oneshots with the same rules. So I laught at people that think that you need 500 pages of rules to have fun.

[@Sun-Tzu-]

I'm a game designer (both video games and TTRPGs) and you're the only other person I've seen to point out that becoming more powerful as your enemies do is an utterly redundant system that just simulates progression without actually having any. All of these are valid criticism of the d20 system, but I don't think we should get rid of it. I think we should just find other additions and less reliance on constant rolling over and over again.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Agreed. Some games do it well. I'm mostly thinking of games like Pathfinder, where you're rolling a D20 and adding like +10-30, but then the AC might be 40... I have no qualms with the d20 itself, more so the idea that a game would mimic growth, all the while raising the DC's right along with that growth.

[@Sun-Tzu-]

@@ElderGoblinGames I'm writing an RPG right now that tries to rectify some of these problems by having PC go through actual growth in order to level up. So it's not XP or milestone based, they level up by overcoming a struggle.

[@billjones3963]

The only thing for me is that the point of leveling is to show growth, I’d hate to play a game where all my stats stay the same. And you don’t necessarily need to increase the hp and ac of the enemies, you can show them their growth by having them fight weaker enemies or have them encounter stronger enemies. It’s on the gm to find the right balance. Call Of Cuthulu has some interesting mechanics that allow even the most trained characters to be killed by anyone.

[@Helen-and-Katarin-Juska-law]

VERY NICE AND BALANCED review with illustration of many great points. NOT for us, but anything that exposes new ideas to the ttrpg community has to be good. Wish you best of success with the channel. You have our continuing support. Stay well, stay safe. Helen and Katarin Juska-Law and Terri and Robyn. Eastern UK Fenlands

[@philliphessel6788]

Different strokes for different folks - or the same folks at different times. What you’re showing here is probably not to my taste, but as the proverb goes, if we all liked the same things, what a haggis shortage there’d be!

[@ElderGoblinGames]

I love that saying 🤣 Mazes isn't my all time favorite, I just think it's doing some daring things and really breaking the mold. There's so many games out there that are just clones, it's always refreshing to see someone try something totally different. But the pendulum swings pretty hard for me in terms of what kind of games I'm excited about. It's mostly dependent on what my life looks like and how much time I can dedicate to any given system.

[@EpicEmpires-pb7zv]

Mazes is a great fun game. Generally speaking more complex games like 5e are designed to give you around a 60% to 70% chance of succeeding at something you're good at. More than that and it's too easy, less than that and you get frustrated because you miss so often.

[@bigbiggoblin2873]

You have a very chill demeanor. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Thanks, I am true neutral after all!

[@EldradWolfsbane]

Very well filmed. Very well edited. The substance is deep and it's completely different approach to the subject matter. Bravo sir! WAIT! Only two videos? MAKE MORE!

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Thank you and thank you! I will. I'm brand new to this whole KZbin thing, so they may be a little slow to release at first, but if I feel I can make it worth my while I have plenty of ideas!

[@EldradWolfsbane]

@@ElderGoblinGames unlike me, who just does videos every few months, you're actually doing high quality productions. Looks like you're in the Appalachians? Moving to the mountains soon myself.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

@@EldradWolfsbane I am! I'm in the Western North Carolina area. A lot of great views around here. Perfect for the kind of filming I like to do.

[@Caitlin_TheGreat]

I'm a fan of simple dice systems. This one sounds pretty good, I'll check it out later. I think that the 2d6 system that PbtA uses is also quite good. It _can_ have the inclusion of modifiers, but generally up to +3 at the maximum. I think that's fine. Either way, you always know what you're aiming for: higher than 6. If you get 10 or higher, even better! I think the tiered success is also great -- when I first started out with D&D and its ilk, I found that I was often disappointed with the black & white pass/fail nature of how it worked. And also the numerous modifiers to deal with and the massive potential range for the target number. Aside from the dice, the other elements of a PbtA game may or may not be for someone. That is as it is. But the core 2d6 with universal target(s) is fantastic and I love it. And I agree that "levelling up" is just a needless illusion where you're running in place. Except... it _does_ change the game. In D&D there's a reason that (depending on the edition) there's a certain range of levels that are ideal and the rest of the levels are sub-optimal or even detrimental to having fun. And you can get drowned in _too many_ character ability options. I think ideally a game should cap how many bespoke abilities a character has -- ones that have their own paragraph(s) of rules text -- and as the game progresses you don't keep getting more, but can (and probably should) alter the ones you do have to fit with things that have happened in-game. Maybe keep it at about 5 total. Each should be quite useful, maybe even somewhat broad in scope (for versatility), but keep it at about 5 because it's so much easier as a player to keep that in mind and be able to fairly quickly work your abilities into the game without needing to pause to leaf through a book or read and re-read notes on your character sheet (and regularly forgetting about some entirely until you see it's on your long list of abilities gained from levels).

[@ElderGoblinGames]

I'm a big fan of PbtA. I have Dungeon World and plan on getting a copy of Monster of the Week (I believe that's PbtA).

[@josephgreer2291]

Good video and this is kind of where I am currently with my outlook on ttrpg’s. I have a newfound appreciation for simpler rules games. Some of it comes from getting older and having less time to run and play games. I’ve been playing since 88 and love the hobby and have designed a few home brew games and have found that they have been getting more streamlined and story focused and less mechanics heavy. I still like interacting dice mechanics cause everyone loves to hear that clicky clack, just not as fond of number crunching and math.

[@MemphiStig]

You've got a cat, a baby, and a hobby. That's all you need for a yt channel! From what I've seen of this game, it's a brilliant change from the usual. Really want to try it out.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Two cats, actually! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@ChelseaCribbsMusic]

My favorite character was the Vegas grandma

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Makes sense, knowing you

[@shadowmancer99]

I'd find that incredibly limiting. I am crunchy person, though there are systems where there is too much to be sure, this would be WAY too light.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

The pendulum swings for me, depending on what my life is like at that time, and how much freedom and flexibility I have for prep. Right now I have a 7-month-old daughter so the lighter the better! But one of my all-time favorite role-playing games is Warhammer Fantasy roleplay 4th edition, which is quite crunchy.

[@AdlerMow]

You should give it a chance and get a feeling, anyway. I used to like crunchy games. Now I know I like the lore, the artwork and the random generators, not the math. Guidelines and common sense doesn't slow you down like rules do.

[@TheArcturusProject]

I was a crunch fiend until I tried to DM a legit game of hackmaster 4e and it BROKE me. Rules light for life.

[@shadowmancer99]

@@TheArcturusProjectLOL...Ya I think everyone has a limit....lol.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

@@TheArcturusProject I'm not familiar with hackmaster, but now I'm curious lol

[@TheAnimeAtheist]

I mean the logic follows. If we're convinced that we can't change the approx chance of outcome, then the increases that happen on both sides are pointless, so just get rid of them. There is another route though, it's to realize that the chance shouldn't stay the same approx., that there needs to be value in increasing certain stats. Which is to say, if we want to keep things crunchy, then hard baking these parameters in like we see in PF2e is a bad idea. And if we'd rather keep the chance the same, then we might as well make the system more lighter and narrative.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

All solid points. Which raises the question of what kind of game you're playing at the end of the day. If it's for newbies or one-shots, then it probably doesn't matter. But yeah, a longer running game with lots of nuance you probably still want variable DCs.

[@carmillachoate]

Meanwhile in an alternate universe where Werner Herzog talks about RPG design...

[@ElderGoblinGames]

I don't know if you realize how huge of a compliment you just gave me. Werner Herzog is an absolute legend.

[@carmillachoate]

@@ElderGoblinGames It 100% was intended as a compliment

[@alexg6353]

FWIW, video of landscapes and you walking around in costume is way more fun than the meme cutaways- it’s more personal and less distracting

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Thank you. I just only have so much of that kind of footage. And it takes me a while to shoot it. So if I did straight footage it would run out quickly and there would be a lot more repeat scenes.

[@alexg6353]

@@ElderGoblinGames makes total sense, just really like your approach to topics and hope your channel grows!

[@ElderGoblinGames]

@@alexg6353 thank you very much! If it ever makes me money, I might be able to get a proper camera and make it an excuse to do longer filming sessions. The shots don't look bad for a phone, but it eats up my storage space really fast.

[@doomhippie6673]

I somehow didn't understand the mechanic - a little too much talk around it for a person who is slow on the uptake. A fighter always rolls a d8? another class always a d4? why would I want to play anything else than a fighter (which btw I ask in any rpg). And you never get better at what you do? So no learning curve for the character? No development? hm.... sounds nice for a one-shot. And that's about it. Still thanks for pointing this game out.

[@AdlerMow]

Because it is not how high you roll, but if you roll specific numbers. In Books skill you need a 2 or 3, so a Fighter (D8) will roll it 25% of time, but the Paragon (D4) roll it 50% of time, so it's weaker at fighting but good at knowledge and magic. Clever, hugh?

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Maybe I focused too much on the chance factor and not enough on Mazes. I'll do a whole review of Mazes at some point so stay tuned!

[@quickanddirtyroleplaying]

The point @eldergoblinhighmage made was that, as the PCs get more powerful, their numbers grow, allowing them to take on greater challenges. Since both the PCs and the challenges they face grow together, the dice probabilities largely stay the same, so doing the math is functionally pointless while being a time sink. If a task is very easy, by and large, it's quicker to simply let the PC succeed automatically rather than waste time rolling to see if they have that off-chance of failing at a 90% or better success rate. If a task is tremendously hard, by and large, having the PC attempt that 10% or lower success rate dice roll is also largely a waste of time; their time would be better spent finding creative ways of making the challenge manageable. For a game system to incorporate getting better without inflating the dice modifiers (or using them at all, for that matter), the thing that changes is what is relatively easy, challenging, and tremendously hard for them. Relational change as opposed to numerical change, though vertical character development remains.

[@dennislaffey]

But the DCs going up as the PC numbers go up ISN'T Old School RPG design. It's very New School. Real old school RPGs do have that sense of growth and accomplishment.

[@quickanddirtyroleplaying]

@@dennislaffey From my understanding, with old school RPGs, the GM creates the world in a way that is largely independent of the PCs' current capabilities. The world is the world and the PCs are free to explore parts of the world that have challenges that are nigh-insurmountable to them if they are able to and if they so wish. However, if the players intelligently determine which encounters are likely to kill them (and avoid them) and which encounters they can either very reasonably overcome without dying (whether through sheer power and/or clever tactics), they're typically playing within a certain range of probability (60-75%), by and large. This typically persists regardless of the PC's power because they will tackle greater challenges with commensurately higher DCs (AC and saving throws are forms of DC). The numbers are going up, but the probabilities are relatively the same. This emphasis on vertical growth simply has the effect of changing the window dressing, so to speak. The feeling of growth and accomplishment is different (though no less valid) than what the math demonstrates. THAC0 of 20, here's your AC 7 monster (roll 13+ to hit). THAC0 of 15, here's your AC 2 monster (roll 13+ to hit). And so on and so on. The relative level of challenge largely stays the same, even when you factor in a PC's horizontal growth, because the challenges they're trying to face (at a minimum) will also have a commensurate amount of horizontal growth as well. The changing of the window dressing keeps things "feeling" fresh, even when the math stays largely the same. At least, this has been my experience when I first got into the hobby with AD&D 2nd edition. Once I discovered other TTRPGs, I never went back to 2e nor any other old-school game, because they were a restrictive mess.

[@kauecarvalho8012]

Great Video! Thanks for introducing me to mazes

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Thanks! I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

[@euansmith3699]

Thanks for an informative video. Seeing you fall down a hole in the long grass gave me a giggle. 😄👍

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Falling down in holes is one of the things goblins do best. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@gingerwhiskered]

I’m always in favor of more RP and less long division! Another dope video, both visually and audibly.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Short division is the true killer! I love all 3 pillars equally, but math isn't one of them!

[@RialuCaos]

Sounds too simplified for my tastes. A lot of the enjoyment, for me, comes from crafting a build and seeing how well it does. I can enjoy random chance but I do not want it to be the sole factor.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

I'll have some videos about crunchier games in the future. Stay tuned for those!

[@Superskirtskirt]

Mazes sounds really cool!

[@ElderGoblinGames]

It is! It's a fun read and full of great ideas/ mechanics!!

[@colbyboucher6391]

I know that this isn't going to appeal to you because clearly you're not a fan of crunch in general but here goes: The idea that target numbers inevitably go up as your character gets better, leading to the same % chance for everything ultimately, is a decidedly d20 problem that roll-under d% systems don't have. In my "forever RPG" (still not the only I play) Mythras, your character's skills range from 0-100 and you always roll under your skill. Difficulty mods for checks modify that skill number, meaning that you're still left with much better chances of success on a Hard check (One-third less than your normal skill, or just -20 if you're lazy) at Boating 80 than Boating 50. Also, many skills are fail-forward, like failing Athletics making you become fatigued rather than making you actually fail to accomplish something. So as your Athletics skill goes up, you'll straight-up just get tired less often. Combat? As your Combat Skill goes up, even if the enemy's goes up as well that means something, it means they're literally more capable of parrying your attacks but that doesn't stop you from bashing them in anyways because they're trying to block your bigass greatsword with a dagger. Meanwhile your HP just never goes up. It's not a thing that happens.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

I do like an array of games, despite the somewhat dramatic title. I think roll under systems also solve a bulk of the problem I discuss here. Especially % systems. It's much easier to quantify the percent chance when you're working from 1-100, whereas a lot of D&D DCs feel a bit arbitrary (to me) and leave GMs throwing a dart at a board hoping it's close to the difficulty "feel" they're going for. I plan on discussing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay when I get a chance, which is a fairly crunchy roll under system that I'd love to run someday.

[@MisterMisogynist]

Great video! I've definitely began leaning more towards lightweight systems. Btw, where is the clip at 0:43 from? Do you know the name of that RPG?

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Yeah, that's Baldur's Gate III by Larian studios. It got a bunch of awards like game of the year.

[@MisterMisogynist]

@@ElderGoblinGames Thanks! I actually meant the image of the clipboard with checkboxes for levels of Attractiveness, Intelligence, etc. I can't tell if that's a TTRPG or some kind of bizarre personality quiz lol

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Ooooh! That's not a game, it's from some old 90's ad about job interviews haha.@@MisterMisogynist

[@jeffallen559]

I think people like to see improvement in their character mechanically as they play through a campaign. I could see a system like this okay if you want to play one shots.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Agreed. I think a system like this shines best with new people or when someone cancels last minute but you still want to play something. I'm actually developing a system right now that is some simple strip down rules but with lots of character advancement options. It's one of my main beefs with rule's light systems is that they often don't offer much for character advancement.

[@jeffallen559]

@@ElderGoblinGames you could take a look at FASERIP the original marvel game by TSR. That game sort of fits that bill and is easy to learn.

[@lustforlike]

Mechanical improvement is a form of advancement, but not the only one that can keep players satisfied. I've played The Excellents a lot - a sibling game to this that uses the same dice system - and the characters in my campaign grew mostly by making friends. By the end there was very little they couldn't accomplish, not because they got bigger numbers on their character sheets, but because they knew and were friends with so many NPCs who could help them out in a bind. The numbers continually going up is a nice progression, of course, but I think it's worth considering others.

[@jeffallen559]

@@lustforlike I could see that working for some people as long as the GM and players were stellar role players, but like everyting else its on a bell curve and most of the people I see are pretty mediocre.

[@Demonskunk]

The reason numbers go up in RPGs is because folks like that feeling of progression. The idea of number go up is that you’re not capable of reaching even higher numbers, and now the previous numbers you struggled to reach are easier. The problem comes when difficulty is arbitrarily inflated. Why does moving THIS boulder take a dc25, but the same size boulder 2 levels ago was only a dc20? That was a big problem in the Pathfinder/3.5 era. I feel that 5e fixed that by preventing your numbers from constantly increasing and locking DCs in place in logical places. I don’t really like the idea of a system where my chances for success don’t change? Math or not, I need a sense of progression. Your argument focuses entirely on what Mazes DOESN’T do, and I feel like you don’t make a good case for why it is great, besides ‘no math’.

[@drunkendelver1966]

To me, a reliance on math and modifiers slow a game down. My motto is "Low hit points, high adventure". Any system that streamlines the math to facilitate quick adjudication is my jam. So far, my favorites have been Dungeon World and Savage Worlds for their (mostly) hardwired target numbers and generally lower HP and damage mechanics. Mazes looks pretty cool too. I'd certainly be down to try it. :)

[@danacoleman4007]

Did you just wake up?

[@Level1Mook]

I love Mazes!!!

[@timbuktu8069]

The problem remains. You play a simple game and then at some point you need to make a ruling. That rule gets written down in a notebook. As the game continues more rules follow. Before you know it your on your 5th edition and some wise ass is telling you that games should be simplified.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Some prefer lots of rules, some prefer flexible rulings. Sometimes I prefer tacos, other times I want pizza. There's no right or wrong answer. Cheers mate.

[@timbuktu8069]

It's a constant struggle, like keeping your workspace clean. My biggest problem is the players that DEMAND a hard and fast rule for everything. But good luck with your quest.@@ElderGoblinGames

[@human.0170]

I like your video but my only problem is that perhaps you recognise some aspects that make the game fun, there are more different aspect that come from a core idea you do not raise in this video

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Fair enough! It is a pretty pointed video. I like to keep them relatively short. There are lots of aspects to many of these games that I enjoy! I do more in-depth covers of games on my read comment review videos. Check those out!

[@elgatochurro]

New games don't even have tension. I moved to SWADE to get some damn tension in the have and simple to follow rules

[@ElderGoblinGames]

I love SWADE (assuming you're talking about Savage worlds). I need to do a read-along of that one!

[@elgatochurro]

@@ElderGoblinGames yea, main draw to me was the rules are just simple, and evne dming it is simple, and even then its jsut really really simple, anything i deem not worth my time or what i wanna change is really easily done

[@ogreboy8843]

IMO the juice of TTRPGs is ultimately in players making interesting hard decisions for their characters. Interesting hard decisions often require a degree of opacity: I have a good idea what will happen if i choose A or B, but I'm not totally sure. Randomness - sometimes achieved with dice - is thus an ingredient game designers (and GMs) can use to build interesting hard decision points for their players. If you choose A, you are rewarded 90% of the time, but 10% of the time you face a catastrophic punishment. If you choose B, the chances are 50/50 but the punishment is nowhere near as bad. Which would you choose under what circumstances? What would your character choose and why?

[@Ashtor1337]

To understand why numbers need to get higher you should study human psychology and if you want a great example look at fortnights gameplay and UI. But if you don't it's simple. The overwhelming majority of people see something as bigger being better. This includes TTRPG players. That's the primary reason that narrative driven TTRPG systems do not sell as the number country ones it is easier for people to understand I have big number I do big number I did great thing.

[@mibbles2371]

May I ask where you got your pipe from.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Sure! I got it from a local pipe shop near where I live in Western North Carolina.

[@cosaicole7139]

You look kind of like shadiversity and thanks for the content

[@DBArtsCreators]

Fate. Chance. Destiny. And being worthless because you aren't developing as a character. My extreme and unfair criticism aside, it looks like this game is a system meant for those who don't want to have their characters improve over time, but just want to experience a quick dip into a world. Bad for long-term campaigns, good for one-shots & (maybe) short-term campaigns.

[@danacoleman4007]

I HATE alliteration!

[@Dr_Dorian]

Ha.. I am #100 😂

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Thank you so much!!! And welcome to the Goblin Gang!

[@danielmiller3596]

...you aren't using old game concepts. If you were, THAC0 would still be a thing, and death save wouldn't be.

[@Naren25]

I don't think you really made your point. Criticize new-school rules by claiming that DCs and ACs inflating with hit rolls is pointless (fine point), but doesn't mention old-school rules at all. 2/10, must try harder. Maybe read an old school game?

[@joshmccaleb3540]

I've never been able to get behind games without DCs, because it makes so much about the world meaningless. Climbing a sheer castle wall on a rainy night is no more difficult than climbing a steep hill, and you can stab a dragon just as easily as an earthworm. I want the GM to have levers to pull to make monsters and obstacles feel different (aside from just narration)

[@lustforlike]

Assuming it's the same as other Polymorph system games, there is a lever not mentioned here - advantage or disadvantage. There's another angle, and I don't know if it's called out in the book, but you can make any challenge harder (in any system, including d20 games) by requiring more successes: "You succeeded on your boots roll, you get halfway up the castle wall. You're now hanging precariously, in the rain." I still doubt it's the game for you if you want those kinds of granular controls, though!

[@MiguelAngelSanchezCogolludo]

Because we are playing ROLEPLAYING games, not STORYTELLING games.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Interesting. Genuinely curious, what are your games about?

[@MiguelAngelSanchezCogolludo]

@@ElderGoblinGames players interact with the shared imaginary world though their characters as "people in the world", not as "screenwriters" deciding what's more dramatic for the character.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Sounds like a great story to me!

[@MiguelAngelSanchezCogolludo]

@@ElderGoblinGames You will hear stories told by players AFTER the game is over, drinking beers in a bar but players don't think in "story terms" during play.

[@vumerion5481]

The eternal debate of the community : narrative systems versus simulationist systems.