Why Are We the Biggest Problem with Salmon Run??? - Splatoon 3

[@Bigsp00n]

It would be helpful if there was a mode similar to Hero Mode, but for Salmon Run. A more in-depth Tutorial mode compared to what there is now, that can help players learn more of the skills or "tricks" needed to play that mode. Because Hero mode is great in teaching new players about how to shoot, swim, use the new Squid Roll and Surge, and how to do various other things. But when it comes to playing in a more PvE mode like Salmon Run, a lot of players don't know some of the various techniques or tricks like Luring Slammin Lids or Flipper Floppers closer to the Basket or with what weapon and when it's a good time to head to the shore to deal with enemies like Big Shots or Stingers

[@RiahGreen]

I think the issue people have with the ranking system is that players who are "highly skilled" and players who are "just good enough" are treated the same. While yes, the current system does give better players a harder challenge, losing because of something you can't control (teammates) in a skill based game is never a good feeling.

[@cirlu_bd]

I play SR for the fun, I love this mode, but EVP40 to EVP140 is more often than not NOT FUN. I don't want to have to carry the entire team, I want to be part of a team where everyone do their job correctly, be a well oiled cog in the bigger and greater machinery that crushes salmonids. Having to be the master cog is tiring, I don't want to have to go through this to get to "the good part" of salmon run ! My ideal checkpoint system would be : if you reach EVP600 on a map, you get to start at EVP200 on that map for the rest of the season. I haven't got a silver badge yet, I'm a bronze badge collector for now haha, but this would give me more incentive to aim for that goal. For now, Salmon run is hard at first then get easier between EVP100-300, and I don't like that. The easy part is locked behind your ability to carry a whole team all by yourself, and I guess it's fair, the game become easy BECAUSE I play with other dirty tryhards who can carry a whole team by their own after all. But still, I have to do that carry part every two days if I want a good time playing Salmon Run, and I'd prefer if I could just tryhard a whole lot at the start of the season and don't have to worry about it for 3 months, and just enjoy running over salmonids as a little well oiled cog in the greater machinery of the team...

[@splattuning]

Hey, now that's actually a pretty good idea. I feel like it's a balanced compromise. By requiring players to get a considerably high rank, it's really only picking out the people who have put in some real effort. Then they aren't at such a high pay grade the next rotation that it gives an unfair advantage. It also wouldn't greatly diminish the dedication required for the climb to 999. Great idea and great comment.

[@sumpumpkin9109]

There's a big difference when the challenge comes from the game and when the challenge comes from the teammates. Having 4 players play as good as you still keeps the challenge because the game is hard based off the skill of you and your teammates (the rank). When you have only one good player on your team, the game doesn't compensate for that and the game is hard but you are down 2 teammates. Sure you can just "clutch up" or just leave but it still doesn't matter since it is really easy to get carried into evp, that's why people aim for evp 100 to 300 to find competent teammates to grind for the 999 since the lower skilled players will be stuck below 100 and players that know what they're doing reach the higher evps

[@sumpumpkin9109]

also it does kinda suck you can't get money from salmon run anymore past the super bonuses, I think they should bring it back but lower it if they want

[@splattuning]

I really do understand this complaint. But the video was more to highlight the occasional elitism with the community. The issue isn't the difficulty with some teammates. The problem is the feeling of doing all the work alongside players who don't have enough experience. But it's not really their fault. The rankings are set up to push people into a higher rank than they're ready for. But it's too easy to stop playing to preserve rank or use specials to grind to the 3rd wave to not lose points. One change I would make is -5 points for a 3rd wave loss at EVP 0. It shouldn't be possible to just hang in there until the next rotation. People need to demote to actually learn.

[@chillsgaming1900]

For me, low evp is annoying cause you have to babysit and make sure you stay alive. I dont find it hard, just annoying. After 200 though, I have lots of fun. I like reaching hlm (when I have the time) because then I know for sure everyone knows what they are doing and I dont have to go out of my way to make sure we dont lose

[@splattuning]

I know what you mean. I should have made it more clear, but I was trying to make a stand against elitism in that video. Not your comment, but some comments, felt like the person wanted an easy time getting rewards and who cares about anyone still learning the game. But I do think the rankings are set up in a way to push people up higher than what they're prepared for and has mechanics to allow them to stay there indefinitely even if demoting would be beneficial for them.

[@chillsgaming1900]

@@splattuning Ohhh I see. Yeah there are a lot of people who refuse to play once they are at evp 0 and just wait for the next rotation to try again. They should definitely make it harder to reach evp, maybe make profresh 2 and 3 require 200 points instead of 100?

[@splattuning]

@@chillsgaming1900 Either that or remove EVP 0. If you drop to that point, you automatically demote. Something like that. Winning more matches would give them points faster anyway. So it's ironic that people cling to the ranks when it's hurting them.

[@cosmo2590]

idk i disagree that higher hazard levels and bad teammates provide similar challenges as imo theres still a big difference between failing because you were overwhelmed as a team and failing because you couldnt carry hard enough. at the end of the day splatoon is a team based game and at the moment you start having to succeed despite your team and thinking of them as an unreliable hindrance, the teamwork aspect of it kind of goes out of the window

[@RedOphiuchus]

It's honestly impossible for the ranking system to be "better" based on the fundamental design of the mode. The game demands that you be familiar with and skilled with every single weapon in the game to truly be good. If you understand the unique challenges of the mode really well but only truly understand a third of the weapons, you're going to be able to get into EVP and maybe even fairly high EVP in a lot of shifts but inevitably be thrown into other shifts where you have no idea what you're doing. Unfortunately, a multiplayer game means that players of all skill levels are going to be in your games and it's best to accept that everyone is at different places in their splatoon journey. I think EVP needs more checkpoints because I don't think you should have to put in a minimum of 6 hours each shift before you can even begin practicing the mode on its highest difficulty. It's a huge barrier for people and teams that wish to catch up with overfishers but struggle to find 8+ consecutive hours to play together. I don't think the badge system should be holding this feature back as much as it is. Especially since you can cheese all the EVP badges by having friends manually demote periodically, preventing the hazard level from going above 250% as you approach 999.

[@splattuning]

I didn't realize that about playing with lower Evp players to get the badges. That's definitely sneaky. And it kind of makes sense with some of the people I've seen with those badges.

[@RedOphiuchus]

@@splattuning yeah most of my group has gotten our 999s that way. We don't really bother putting them on though, just our max hazard badges because they are certainly more honest. Even doing this method it's still an absurd time commitment that we really only bother doing this way because otherwise it's hard to find that many consecutive hours to get everyone together. If there was a checkpoint system we would absolutely use the more honest approach.

[@splattuning]

You know what they say? If it's in the game, it's not cheating.

[@nategthepigeonlord2683]

I want the rewards but why are the worst salmon rewards from splat 2 800 bronze scales and my favorite jacket from the juice parka 30 gold scales. I’m a pvp player not a salmon run player.

[@splattuning]

Yeah. That's crazy. I've played almost every salmon run rotation since the game came out for around 4 or 5 matches and have maybe earned 30 gold scales. I get that they want the scales to be some sort of stretch goal, but it's kinda ridiculous.

[@fredskelet2284]

just learn to carry if they are so bad and you are so good :/

[@omegacanon]

I've said it since the beginning just make a salmon ranked mode it would solve all those problems. Also evp checkpoints

[@splattuning]

There's a lot of changes that could be made, but they're definitely trying to strike a very careful balance. But this just seems like my best guess for why things are the way they are.

[@agentblackbird9435]

I’ve heard some people say checkpoints would be bad because it’d make EVP badges easier to get. Idk how to feel about it

[@splattuning]

If they changed it sooner than later, it could have been done. I feel like too many people got them now and they might feel as though their efforts no longer have the same value.

[@Dinosaurprince]

Yeah no. Weapon sets, which bosses actually spawn each round and stages have a huge impact. The randomization will destroy you if it so chooses. Add to that wonky bomb physics and lag and you got yourself some pretty dire situations. King Throwing teammates are also a major problem. Got 300 and up points to waste? Good. Let’s save time and throw rounds. This will make our meters rise even faster. Screw randos!

[@agentblackbird9435]

Me with 999 Marooner’s Bay badge but doesn’t use it:

[@splattuning]

I know what you mean. I don't use some of my most prestigious badges either.

[@trickygamer555]

How do you even manage anything beyond 200 on marooner's, that map's really weird to play

[@agentblackbird9435]

@@trickygamer555 I played during the rotation with all Grizzco Weapons

[@splattuning]

Doesn't take anything away from it. You still had to invest the time.

[@chillsgaming1900]

​@@trickygamer555kill kill kill

[@eclipse_eternal8178]

For big run, it's entirely luck with teammates unless you play straight away, at often awful timezone (well for me anyway) and go straight to the higher VP ranks where the top people are so you have a fighting chance to get a high score. For the last 2 big runs, I've played for like a majority of the time but since i was stuck at around 50-200 vp as i started playing later I only managed to get a high score for silver both times :(

[@splattuning]

Plus depending on the waves, you can get really lucky or unlucky. If you don't have a roller on a rush wave, you might barely get through. If you have a dynamo roller, you might get 60 eggs. Playing longer is definitely rewarded due to having more chances of having better luck. But yeah, big run ranking isn't something to get hung up on. There are some things just out of our control.

[@ZtotheMills]

I only play Salmon Run as my daily win for the catalog XP and the better payout for winning. I keep demoting myself to stay in low rank cuz I don't enjoy the challenge and I'm not very good. I could consider a higher tank for the the shell rewards but those seem way too tedious to grind for, so I just ignore them and hope they never add anything I might want... I'd be fine if some items weren't locked behind spending shells though....

[@splattuning]

I don't think it's that much higher of a drop rate for the scales anyway between the ranks. I mean not a significant enough difference that it makes them that much easier to get considering that it usually takes at least 4 matches anyway.

[@slurples149]

"The badges weren't created to be gained" tell that to people who have 3 gold weapon badges on their splashtag.

[@splattuning]

I don't know what the automatic closed captioning said, but the line was "gamed". Sorry for any confusion.

[@ArtAngelMouse]

Me: I think under EVP 200 is too easy and can be solo carriable. I just want to stay in higher ranks for difficulty. Game: Starts giving me teammates that gets splatted 5 times or maybe even 8 deaths in every rotation. Me: Stays and plays with them anyways because its carriable, but it doesn't personally feel challenging for me because I'm not really getting splatted or struggling myself. Idk what the matchmaking is but does the game think I'm actually good? I personally thought that EVP freelance even in low rank was really good until recently where it feels I'm just carrying players. They have five splats because I ran around to revive them. Its a team game, I love cooperation, I am going to revive you no matter how far away you are. But I'm not a fan of artificial difficulty of "we'll give you players that should've fallen out of EVP but are afraid of demoting". I think profreshional is a nice rank, I find a lot of nice players there. ...Idk, I think its a little weird people complain about profreshional as some kind of elo hell or that freelance is so terrible that you should only play in pools or servers or friends. I'm just playing for fun and rewards, so it kinda doesn't matter if low EVP matchmaking is weird.

[@DaniRavioli]

Last month I dropped from over 100 VP down to lower Profressional. I thought that only happened to bad players and not to people like me 😢. But now I know that it can happen to anyone.

[@splattuning]

Nobody can be at 100% all the time. It happens. Plus there are some particularly challenging rotations. That's not even considering your luck in terms of night waves. So yeah, nobody is bad in EVP. But there will always be some people better than others. Don't worry about it and just have fun.

[@YouMayKnowMeAsNate]

Okay there’s a ton of sarcasm and devil’s advocacy in this video so tbh it’s hard for me to figure out what your thoughts are vs others’, but if I understand correctly, you’re okay with higher skilled players having to carry lower skilled players because the challenge makes it more fun. By that logic, shouldn’t we match S ranks with B ranks?

[@splattuning]

Well I feel like it probably wasn't as clear as I hoped. The point was that a lot of people say they want challenge, but it's that they really want are rewards. Badges, scales, grizzco points, whichever. If they're so good, the supposedly bad players shouldn't be holding them back. And on the other hand, the players who feel like they are being held back by allegedly bad players won't admit that they aren't as good as they think they are or else they wouldn't have any trouble. But in general, yes. If players truly crave a challenge, it's there starting at EVP 40 if they actually think their teammates are so bad. I feel like I'm still not being clear. What I mean is that elitism is one half of the problem and greed is the other. That basically sums it up. The issue players have is that they're guilty of playing for rewards, but they don't want to play alongside less skilled players because they feel as though they're too good for that. So checkpoints are only to segregate the player base to keep the "good" players away from the "bad" players. Edit: And the difference between salmon run and battle modes are that one is pvp and the other is not. That being said, they do exactly that. Ranks aren't the end all be all. I was playing against players with the S+ badges when I was A rank due to having a high enough win ratio. So I think salmon run could have better matchmaking. But I only agree if it helps all skill levels rather than high skilled players.

[@YouMayKnowMeAsNate]

@@splattuning I do feel I understand your position and arguments better now, so thank you for the clarification. For whatever reason, the complaints that you are hearing from people are very different from the complaints I’m hearing. I can’t remember a single time someone said salmon run wasn’t hard enough. The majority of what I hear is that salmon run is *too* hard (not because of the mode itself but just that teammates are not nearly as good). I do think that part of this complaint is people having the unrealistic expectation that they should be winning most of their matches rather than ~50%. On the other hand, I think (and I think we agree) that you are matched with players with widely varying skill levels, especially in EVP. In Splatoon 2 the hazard level max was low enough that you could win even with bad teammates, but Splatoon 3 raised the max hazard level enough that you need teammates to actually be luring and such to win. I don’t think people are unjustified to be angry when they did the best they could but a teammate died 8 times in the first 2 waves. Challenge due to not doing things as efficiently as possible is something players can learn and overcome. Challenge due to teammates (effectively) griefing is frustrating and feels uncontrollable. The goal of matchmaking should be to match players with as similar skill as possible. Personally, I think ranks need to be much longer. Ranking up and down in just a few games simply is an inaccurate measure of skill. Instead of 100, it could be 300 each. Not only does this give more room for natural fluctuation within a rank, but it also slows the change in hazard level so there isn’t as large increases or decreases in difficulty within a couple matches. The second complaint I always hear is how grindy scales are. Firstly, scales awarded are insanely RNG based. This wouldn’t be as big of a problem if there was some way to exchange scales of one type to another, but still. Secondly, the prices for items in the shop can be, not just arbitrary, but mind-bogglingly wild. A banner that costs a lot of scales makes sense as a chase item. The cheapest piece of gear, though? 100 bronze! It’s a regular piece of gear! You could buy something like that for 10k cash!

[@splattuning]

In my previous video, some people were complaining that they want to start at a higher difficulty because it's not fun at EVP 40. But it couldn't possibly be their true reason for complaining. It just seemed elitist. Negativity like that can drive people away so I wanted to address it. And the scales are something even I can't perfectly explain. They're meant to be long term goals, but tying them to rewards as they are makes it feel necessary. Like the slopsuits, which are purely cosmetic, essentially taking months to get is a bit much. But again, it's the carrot on a stick to keep people playing. So there's a very narrow balance to keep. They can't be obtained too fast or it defeats the purpose. Overall, I feel like they did balance things relatively well across all aspects, but I do think changes could be made. I can't give them too much flak because at the very least, it's not as if there are in game purchases which they could have done to make a lot more money. But they also know that poisons the well. So overall, it was a video saying like chill out, people. Just have fun and stop worrying about cosmetics and rewards. You know?

[@leotumwattana]

I play for the challenge and enjoyment. I am one of those guys with gold badges. People grow when faced with challenges appropriate for their skill level. They don’t grow by being carried, nor do they grow by floating around as a life buoy for most of the game. A challenge is only such when there a possibility of success. If not then it’s just a waste of time. This is true for strong players and weaker ones. From the perspective of stronger players: Depending on the weapon, there is a limit to how much one person can carry. Making some matches impossible to carry no matter how good they are. Making it just a random roll of the dice. Luck. Not challenge. From the perspective of the weaker player: I can’t image how it is fun to be placed at a hazard level where I do nothing but die and be forced to just float around as a life buoy for half the session crying for help? How do I even get better when I’m spending most of my time dead or being carried to more deaths and floating around? I don’t think having checkpoints is elitist. As having them not only benefit stronger players, but also prevents the weaker players from wasting time playing games beyond their current skill level, feeling dejected and not getting the proper chance to practice and improve. In short, asking players to carry is a slog for them and a disservice for the others.

[@splattuning]

@@leotumwattana But wouldn't checkpoints just exacerbate the problem that less skilled players have? If they got into evp without being ready, now they have even less of a chance of winning. And while I would agree that the correct solution is that they need to demote anyway to gain more experience in the mode, they aren't necessarily going to see it that way. If they already understood that they needed to demote, they would just voluntarily do it. So I think that it wouldn't teach them anything. They would just get discouraged. The problem is that the whole ranking system needs redesigned to truly fix the problem. For whatever reason, it's intentional that a large amount of people of varying skill levels are grouped into evp 40 at the start of each rotation. The issue is that they want to reward the good players quickly to get into EVP. But the less skilled or less experience players are also on that accelerated path. EVP doesn't really need changed. Profressional needs more points in every rank. But if you win every match in a row or get a certain amount of eggs over the quota, you can jump up more points. So Profressional would take something like 200, 300, and 400 points in the previous ranks to get into EVP. Maybe not such a steep amount, but something like that. It would actually give people more time to learn the game before being thrown into EVP. The skill level would probably be adjusted too. Pro + 3 would have to be the same difficulty as EVP 40 at the high end of the ranking. But checkpoints seem like a bandage rather than actually fixing the problem. People need taught what they're doing wrong. So either we need to do that or the game needs to do it. But either way, checkpoints only separate the players with knowledge from the players without knowledge. And people can't be expected to seek outside resources.