Why aren't incentives working for Singapore's falling fertility rate? | Deep Dive podcast

[@marymary25960]

"who will care for you when youre old?" You should already be planning for your elderly phase and NOT relying on your children. When we bring children into this world you have to know they owe us as parents absolutely nothing. Many elderly in homes and elder care complain their children don't come see them at all. Don't rely on your kids to take care of you, be an adult, plan ahead, pay for assistance, don't be lazy and entitled.

[@s._3560]

Yes, that's the Western beliefs system. They leave their elderly in care homes and pay for it with the elderly parents money. Some just live by themselves independent lonely, sometimes die alone. Again emphasize one's independence and cold refrain "nobody owes you anything". The Eastern beliefs are more family and community oriented and interdependent. Grandparents look after grandkids. They help out their kids for life. Care for one another for life. When the elderly are weak and sickly and can no longer contribute to the family or care for themselves, the younger ones show their appreciation, in turn by caring for them and not abandoning them.

[@Zucker2007]

Honey, SOMEONE's children will have to take care of you. Who do you think you'll be paying? And given the growing number of old and shrinking number of young people there simply will need to be mass abandonment of the childless old in the next 40 or 50 years.

[@ABC-ed8cg]

“who will care for you when you’re old” is the most selfish qn. Ppl who breed think it’s okay to birth another being into this hellhole and forcing him to deal with his own old age when the time comes just to make themselves feel better about their own old age?!

[@Zucker2007]

@@ABC-ed8cg Oh girl, quick to judge when you say "don't judge me" huh? ;-) Just saying that you are not entitled to receive ANY support from ANYONE when you're old and there simply won't be enough young people to do it anyway. That's a fact, whether you like it or not.

[@heatherramaekers7178]

@zucker2007 you're right, someone else's children will be PAID to take care of me in an environment where they work a certain amount of hours and get to go home to their families and have days off. Imagine being an only child and being expected to have both parents move in with you and have to quit your job to care for them 24/7 unpaid. Having to put your own life on hold, not being able to find a partner or have children of your own for the next 20 years all because your parents had you for the purpose of taking care of them in their old age.

[@poorpotato7623]

Why should I suffer to bring another being in to suffer? My kids will be saved from the stresses and drudgery of this life and having never existed, will not feel deprived of the joys they missed out on. The state is worried because there will be less soldiers, nurses, tax payers to perpetuate its will. The state does not care about the well being of the born, only what it can extract from them.

[@andrewchan5153]

So true. I'm 38 with no kids because I don't want to bring a life into this world to be used as the state's fodder being force into taxation without representation and forced military service with no freedoms. Such a cruel world, I think I am doing the moral thing.

[@Zucker2007]

Oh dear. Your life sounds terrible 😨Are you in a war zone?

[@ABC-ed8cg]

Exactly!!! Same thoughts. I’m an antinatalist and VHEMT supporter.. Ppl who think otherwise are deluded..

[@frankchong5585]

Agreed. I would add society, environment / climate issue, economic issue, how less forgiving future is going to be.

[@s._3560]

Too stressed and overpopulated, too expensive. When both parents have to go out to work full-time in order to survive, the children will hardly see their family. No moral guidance, no family warmth only maids. Kids confined to school from morning till sunset, grow up stressed from studies and CCAs, parents stressed from OT work. No time for family or community bonding leads to less social cohesion and less inclination to have children. No job security due to constant intense competition from other nationalities. Wages constantly undercut. Increasingly expensive and shrinking homes resulting in less personal spaces, which leads to more conflicts. Cars priced 4x that of developed countries, hence family members cannot privately converse during travel journeys and cannot explore together on road trips. Cut-throat atmosphere and constant refrain of "nobody owes you a living'' to citizens makes our country feel less like a warm loving home but more resembles a cold, calculating profit-driven company.

[@zhixuanchen6914]

Absolutely, the price of economic success is what we are paying.

[@blueamenaa749]

I agree. It's too competitive and stressful. I have 3 kids and they re teens. They don't want kids. The future is scary enough.

[@steventay5834]

@s._3560 You clearly stated all the reasons. If I can't give my child happiness (spending quality time with them, giving them a good education, etc..), then I will feel very guilty!! I rather not have a child

[@kelvinfok]

The simple answer is that one side sees kids as assets while the other sees them as liabilities. Some people view monetary, career advancements and achieving personal goals as the only form of abundance. While others think that relationships and a big family are all that matters. If one is bent on not having children for any reason, they should not be compelled or be persuaded. Let those who want to have kids, have them. There’s no right or wrong, only cause and effect.

[@steventay5834]

kelvinfok I neither see them as asset or liability. But I will have a responsiblity to give them happiness and this is never easy. What happens if I die prematurely at say 40.

[@sapphireaqua]

11:40 The awe inspiring and admiring faces of others panelists when she talked about how she want her kid to be in top form. 12:08 The almost disbelief and kind of disapproval faces of the panelists when she said she don’t force her kid to be anything anymore. There, one of the problem. The parents and kids are stress non stop from their own expectation and others starting from pregnancy to adulthood. Endless worrying of their life. It is not surprising if not everyone would want to go on that experience for 20+ years of raising one kid.

[@zhixuanchen6914]

That’s the root cause mate - kiasu-ism that is ingrained into our minds, a by-product of the economic success we had for decades which emphasises greatly on internal competition or “Nei Juan” (内卷） as the PRC Chinese would call it.

[@andrewchan5153]

The state needs to extract every ounce of energy from you and your kids, from peer pressure to forced military service, everything is laid put from the moment a child is born. Better not to give birth, it's the moral thing to do unless you can raise them up in God's way and refuse forced military service.

[@steventay5834]

@sapphireaqua I am a father with a different mindset. I never stressed my daughter. She has a very happy childhood. I am always very concerned about her future. What will happen to her when I go to heaven? Will she have a happy family of her own? Countless worries for me!

[@simpleslowlife2158]

This conversation has missed the plot. Singapore is a highly-competitive, elitist n materialistic society -- we celebrate consumerism over culture -- where white-collar professionals are not protected from working 10-12++ hrs a day, n young single adults struggle to move out of their parents' home (many staying until 35 yrs old n beyond) due to high costs n housing policy. This is creating a generation of exhausted n stressed adults with little room to blossom into healthy n happy individuals. Many women are in survival mode n trying to cope in this environment, which is not conducive for families n child bearing. $8k or similar payouts don't make a dent in this situation. Allowing more flexible work, sabbaticals, egg freezing n more fertility support into early 40s is the way to go, while also focusing on changing the narrative in this country.

[@benjaminmtang]

because throwing money at a problem without a holistic, structural approach to addressing the issue is doomed to fail.

[@hammongster]

Well said

[@simplyxdelish]

The reality is that even in the younger generation, some men still believe main caregiving duties fall on the women. I just had a young baby and my husband does not want to step up. Till date he has not changed a diaper on his own. When asked why, he gives many reasons why he is not able to do so, eg he doesn’t know how to change a diaper, or he needs time to get better. He has been shown how to change a diaper time and time again, he just blatantly refuses to do so. Being a new mother dealing with newborn challenges alone is extremely stressful. I have no intention of repeating this again. One and done.

[@kereuee]

That’s weaponized incompetence.

[@VioletCandyz]

Well the good news for you if you happen to be married for a few years when you get a divorce you get half the assets + alimony while men gets none.

[@joannahe419]

Not only that: society even expects women to do everything. Even MOE Sparkletots and primary school teachers keeps on calling me on kids matters when I told them to call the father? Shouldn’t the govt step in to support and change mindsets?

[@s._3560]

Worse, some of these men their hearts are not with their family, but are regularly visiting massage shops, since there is such a proliferation of them in neighbourhoods now, no longer confined to just the City nor Geylang. With availability of social media, a smorgasbord of cheap free-lancing regional women advertise themselves daily. How are hardworking ordinary decent women who have to juggle both caring for their children while working meant to compete with these? How does one build strong family ties with all these circumstances ? Our country has becomes extremely materialistic, money driven, less socially connected, less family-oriented as a society. Only 20-30 years ago, everyone was only a few degrees of separation from each other, now we are diluted as a society in moral values and social ties.

[@ecclairmayo4153]

It's crazy that I had to scroll so long to find this comment. They denied it here in this interview, but the interaction at 6:10 tells us all we need to know. Men generally can "get their life back" rather quickly, while women's bodies and lives are irreparably damaged many times for life. Holly and her mother's experience is typical of women around the world. Women without children can see that there is an extreme amount of stress on women when they have children. They also see the expectations of women to do domestic work and outside work, elder care etc haven't changed but men's small expectations of parenthood largely hasn't changed. That, coupled with the cost of living even before you have a family should leave little wonder why the birthrate is plummeting the world over.

[@gweejiahan9336]

13:10 I don't think majority of people will think that current environment is safe. Yes that is no aggressive danger that threatens our physical lives, like in Africa, Gaza, Ukraine, Taiwan etc, but the labor market, the economy, the inflation, the cost of living all these are stressors when its unstable. I would say all these environment factors are also very critical. if some couple earns enough to have kids, but competition in their job sector is high, the turn over rate is high, the job security is low, they know they have to hustle non-stop, These people are always stressed, they know if they don't move up, they are stagnating and at risk, they don't know if they will have a job 5 years down the road. The whole Singapore is like that in varying degrees across industry sectors. The government knows this, that's why they keep asking people go upgrade themselves using skillsfuture to keep their skills relevant. Giving incentives and subsidies are just bandaids, you can't live off the subsidies and incentives, and in the end they are not forever, but the job hustle never ends, the lack of job security never ends. This is the key problem in my opinion

[@s._3560]

Coupled with a lot of cheap labour from neighbouring countries permitted to work here and undercutting wages here.

[@coolocean11]

When family with young kids wants to get a family car and have difficulties because of high code but what some more and ministers response? I think the gov should encourage the high earners and ministers to have more children instead….average singaporeans have no time for this

[@jameslim5112]

The more educated people are, the better they understand the reality of life. There’s too much concerns to be worried about and having a kid just involves so much more….

[@tonywatson5704]

Birth rates fall as countries fall for one reason: there’s no need. With pensions, healthcare, developed financial products people don’t need large families to provide for them in non-productive years. Free of that burden people will pursue self-actualisation goals. When this need falls away personal liberties take prominence and people are free to have fewer - or no - kids. Or not even form a household at all. A big part of this is greater focus on career. This pursuit necessarily means delaying family formation to focus on education and work.

[@nastyayoyo4963]

Worse than 'there is no need', children are now 'luxuries' with a lot of downsides.

[@Zucker2007]

Yep, and those exact system will collapse in the next few decades. Then things will get interesting.

[@possiblylucky]

What can help? Take happiest country in the world for example - they have 12 months of paid maternity leave.. this will rly help with new mothers adjusting to the new lifestyle and saving cost of not having to send the baby to infant care etc

[@AnAntinatalistSpeaks]

Having children should not be encouraged but should be discouraged as far as possible because it is unethical Catch a man a fish, and you feed him for a day Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life But create a man, and you create a lifetime of hunger that didn't need to exist in the first place.

[@penguin6700]

It's very hard to be a working professional mother who has to take care of more work after work hours, housework and child minding. Getting a maid brings me additional problems. And I am expected to contribute as much if not more at work as all my colleagues who do not have children. I have 3 children now. I love kids but it's hard. Quantity compromises with quality. What would make me willing to have another child would be the possibility of working 50% of what I am doing now and still earning a reasonable sum of money. This allows my family to have dual income and yet time and energy to take care of my children well.

[@robocop581]

Meh. Having a maid brought me and my wife additional solutions, not problems

[@shurakishi4707]

@@robocop581 a maid can bring more problems if they have 1) debt problems 2) family problems 3) secretly having boyfriend locally while employed. 4) stealing from employers etc. I am not exaggerating. All mentioned here have frequently occurred to anyone who hires a maid. They are indeed a headache to have if they come with problems.

[@robocop581]

@@shurakishi4707 Meh. I've had maids since 1994. All our Helpers have been generally good, especially our recent one who's been with us for 14 years. As for your experience, too bad and so sad

[@shurakishi4707]

@@robocop581 i do not say this from personal experience of having a maid. I say this from the perspective of a healthcare professional, I see patients who are domestic worker employers citing these issues of their maids. I even see maids who come in for their check-ups and ask me what to do they are suddenly pregnant.

[@robocop581]

@@shurakishi4707 So what? That's anecdotal. My friends all have maids and they're all satisfied. There are 400,000 maids in the place I reside in. Do the math and see how many bad cases there are from 400,000.

[@JJ-rp2df]

Divorce loss of house, kids, pension and income etc is the unspoken real cost of families

[@changetheworldforbetter]

Having children requires a lot of sacrifices. We are now so self-centered that we are not ready to sacrifice our personal freedom for the kids. The education system should focus on the importance of having family bonding, mental health, and community spirit.

[@SK-lt1so]

What nonsense-people have kids then hand them over to maids, schools, after school tutors/programs. They have no time for kids they gave birth to, because they work like dogs just to survive in a ridiculously expensive city.

[@wildpasta]

One can’t be self-centered towards things or people that don’t exist. How can childfree people called self-centered to the children they *don’t* have? lol

[@ABC-ed8cg]

I think you’ve misunderstood the meaning of self-centered. Self-centredness is the wanting to pass on genes at the expense of the planet and animals. The existence of humans = 92.2 billions animals slaughtered a year & > 115 million animals tested on in labs every year. Wise ppl would choose not to perpetuate a mindless cycle of animal suffering! You may think your 2 kids make no difference to environmental degradation but that’s what billions of others think too. Imagine the cumulative effect of damage. There’s no selfless reason for having children, so please try again!! I’m an antinatalist and a VHEMT supporter (look these terms up!) so of course I won’t be having kids. Antinatalism-- It doesn’t make sense to drag another innocent life from the void into a life of inevitable stress, suffering, accident, illness & death just because you want to have kids. “who will care for you when you’re old” is the most selfish qn. So you think it’s okay to birth another being into this hellhole and forcing him to deal with his own old age when the time comes just to make yourself feel better about your own old age?!

[@changetheworldforbetter]

​@@ABC-ed8cg Having children and raising them needs to sacrifice a lot. It is not everybody's cup of tea. Those who don't have kids think having a kid is like buying a toy from the store and keeping one corner of the house to collect dust. After some time we discard that toy for another new one. If you understand the life cycle of living things, you would know it is part of nature to eat each other. You better stop living in a delusional theory and world. Nobody promises you an infinite existence in this world if you do this or that. When you get old, you will rely on other people's children taking care of you. You are not making any sacrifice, we are sacrificing our time, money, freedom, and space so that you are well taken care of in your old age. Period!

[@Deady4u]

Self-Centered? More like selfless even buddha like. Only those who are insane or are wealthy as hell will bring a child into a hellscape battlefield

[@MatthewKanwisher]

Funny they are excited about 4 weeks maternity leave ? Even in Thailand they have 3 months. Europe they have 12 months

[@Duperman2494]

Because we are singaporeans and we absolutely love going to work

[@koalatheworld]

@@Duperman2494 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@gavinlew8273]

Rubbish policies

[@ignatiusryd2031]

4 weeks maternity leave only placed SG maternity leave in par with Indonesia. Ironically, many Indonesians now wanted the maternity leave to be extended at least in par with Thailand to ensure the maternal bonding between the mother and the baby before the mother have going back to work.

[@katherineYKX]

Singapore has 16 weeks maternity leave. They are referring to paternity leave, which is 4 weeks.

[@rching7700]

Well if you see the Salary : Expense ratio you will know... it's NOT rocket science

[@shurakishi4707]

Some of the panelists just shrug off the concerns that current couples are facing and seems to be of the view that raising kids actually does not seem to cost alot or much effort is needed. Do note that when you gave birth to your kids a couple of decades ago - the costs are different. 4rm flat BTOs back then cost about 100-150k. Now they cost at least 400k. Household salaries have increased, but definitely not as much as 3 to 4 times more. Not forgetting the cost of everything else has increased tremendously. I hope the panelists know that for a young couple today, raising a kid is not as easy as it was in the past. The work people do are more and more demanding and there is certainly a constraint there. Not all work can have flexible arrangements. There is a limit. Costs keep rising, it is then a matter of survivability. If you can't survive, what makes you think a couple can bring another life in?

[@pearlyung]

The truth is, not many like babies and kids. No brainwashing or money will work.

[@ssuwandi3240]

They love them just as accessories. The stuff to carry around. Pitiful children. The abuse came in early days

[@VioletCandyz]

The truth is you don't like kids and probably not mature enough to handle the responsibility.

[@pearlyung]

@@VioletCandyz Nope. Plenty do not like babies and kids.

[@VioletCandyz]

It's important to recognize that generalizing about any group can be misleading and oversimplified. Women, like men, have diverse preferences and attitudes towards children. Some women love kids and look forward to having them, others may not be interested in having children, and many fall somewhere in between. Just as it would be inaccurate to say "many men don't like kids," it's equally incorrect to make such sweeping statements about women. Personal experiences, cultural influences, and individual life choices all play significant roles in shaping one's feelings towards children. Moreover, societal expectations and cultural norms vary widely, influencing how women perceive and express their interest in having children. In some cultures, women may feel more pressure to express a desire for children, while in others, career and personal development might be more emphasized. It's also worth noting that many women choose professions involving children, such as teaching, pediatric medicine, and childcare, reflecting a genuine interest in and affection for children. This indicates that broad generalizations fail to capture the full picture.

[@pearlyung]

@VioletCandyz Well nobody admits that fact. Writing long justifications does not mean everyone likes babies and kids. Plenty obviously don't.

[@NathanNoon]

Its interesting how no one on the panel is talking about how relationships or the lack thereof is also a concern. Marriage rates are also down big time

[@anglo-saxonconnor817]

The evil empire can still rely on accepting migrants and foreign labour to offset low fertility turn over rate in Singapore. So its not a big problem for them anyway.

[@Duperman2494]

Naturalisation is the way to go! Who did the 60% vote for?

[@AyakoTachi]

Most places with incentives, the incentives aren't great. Try an experiment - Free apartment. Stipend enough for one parent to stay home. Ticket out of military service. Free tuition. (Worth a try in Singapore at this point...) People aren't going to completely change their behaviors for nominal amount of money and a relatively nominal time off work.

[@kaister901]

People can have all the kids they want. I am not having any for a plethora of reasons. One of the crucial ones being, I don't want my kids to deal with the climate crisis. Using paper straws and skipping plastic bags are just feel good actions. They do little to actually help tackle the climate crisis. A recent IPCC survey shows that the majority of scientist expect a 2 to 3 degree increase in global temperatures with current measures. If we want to avoid that reality, we need to go cold turkey on fossil fuels right now. That is realistically not going to happen anytime soon. So, good luck to the kids that are being born now. You may say your kids will have air conditioning to survive. Unfortunately, the plants and animals that they need for food won't have air conditioning outside.

[@ABC-ed8cg]

Exactly! I find it laughable when ppl with kids talk about wanting to be environmentally conscious. They should first look up the carbon footprint of one single human. Just in the first year of a baby’s life, 2500 freaking soiled diapers are thrown out. Existence of humans = 92.2 billions animals slaughtered a year & > 115 million animals tested on in labs every year. Ppl who breed think their 2 kids won’t cause environmental degradation. That’s what billions of others who choose to breed think too! Imagine the cumulative effect. Ppl calling the childfree as selfish is the lamest. They’re the selfish ones. Breeding at the expense of everything! We are not just animals acting on base instincts without thinking of consequences. Contraception exists!! Subjecting future generations to a life of stress and finally old age and decrepitude just to have someone take care of us in old age is an iziotic vicious cycle and it can end somewhere. I’m an antinatalist and a VHEMT supporter.

[@Ruth-os4mi]

Pregnancy sucks. It's risky and painful. Yuk!

[@steventay5834]

I must give my child a happy home.. and this means I need to spend quality time with my child. Also, I need to have ample money. Given a choice, I rather remain single.

[@lesliesia5142]

Tax incentives for the father please. Most family will not consider more than 2 kids because likelihood one parent will have to stop working, and there is no additional help provided to the father while mum consider staying at home. It may be easier to convince those have 1 or 2 kids to have more children, than to convince those who decided not to have kids at all.

[@pov72]

Lets increase the wages so we can bring back 1 income families and 1 parent can stay home. All families who have kids should get 25% off their new homes but manage the speculative issues involved.

[@Duperman2494]

1 income household? Lol dream on...the gov had put in too much effort over the years to encourage women to get educated and join the workforce, because growing the freaking economy and growing our reserves takes precedence over everything else. Even our public housing prices are based on a dual income affordability unlike our parents generation. Having a single income household means less money for ah gong, and ah gong will ask you to wait long long.

[@ssuwandi3240]

I don't envy people and their homes. Just envy the Banksters and the tricks to refinancing😊. The second thing I would envy is naturally people without debts.

[@wildpasta]

Finance is not the only reason why people don’t want children. There are alot of downsides to having children and money can’t counter those downsides.

[@siewmj1]

The wolces are crying because there is not enough sheep to give birth to give them lambs to eat

[@Olvlmathscience]

Well, people here have been busy with their roles ever since their first day they are born. When they are finally kind of more established in life when they could do something for themselves, the society wants them to have kids. It’s fine for those who already have having kids as part of their life plan, but not every has that. In the past people have genuine reasons on why they need to have kids, so they would be motivated to give birth to a few. However, I believe the need to have kids has diminished in the modern society and men and women want to pursue what they want more than waiting for another 20 years so that they can do whatever they want. They would be too old by then. Such issues can never be solved by the government with money.

[@Kalimatullah_Yoh1-1.14]

PROSPERITY/MATERIALISM, AND COMFORT are the main culprits of falling fertility rate

[@KelvinLow-j5i]

The most common excuses for not having kids... 1. Not enough finance 2. Too stressful 3. No time due to career 4. People too self centred 5. Physiological issues to due lateness in settling down. The above sums it up for most, with the exception of 1, the rest sets in due to delay in having kids at a later age. If we look historically, people in the past have kids much younger, did their lives or career end with that... I don't think so. It is a red herring, a self fulfilling concern. Humans are very adaptable, we have been so cocooned in today's world, so safe... We need a push. If men can sacrifice to do ns for sg, for security reasons, what about childbearing, is that not a security concern? Let our gals have kids at 18 to 20, the best child bearing yrs, they will find a way to balance family and work, no excuses or fear... As for finance, it will work itself out, most people in sg has no objective issues with finance, just cut back on expensive cars, rolex, lv or trip overseas.

[@Callsign-Blade_RunnerSG]

No, I do not agree that the first month isn’t necessary for fathers to be around because “they couldn’t do anything”. In fact, Husbands being around in the first month is just as or if not, MORE CRUCIAL because their wives needs to recuperate after birth as well. Not to mention the likelihood of Post Natal DEPRESSION due to inadequate rest coupled with a crying newborn would certainly makes things worse. It’ll also lead to the rise of mother/child suicides which unfortunately has been on the news lately. Lastly, Not everyone can afford nannies and they might not even have siblings or Grandparents around to turned to for help. So adequate Paternity leaves are important.

[@ecclairmayo4153]

Exactly. I was shocked to hear that men don't have anything to do. That's why women have opted out of dating and marriage altogether. There is still very little expectations for men and too much on the woman. A man should care for his wife that has had a major medical experience. Cooking for her, cleaning, making sure supplies are stocked etc are necessary

[@s._3560]

@@Callsign-Blade_RunnerSG They can definitely help by changing diapers, bathing & feeding baby, running errands, doing the grocery runs etc. Men also produce oxytocin when helping to care for the new baby as well as his wife. All these activities are an important part of the family bonding process. Men who refuse to help during this time, would not be understanding nor empathetic towards their families and most likely playing the field outside.

[@DarkPa1adin]

Besides money, there's also space constraints. In US (non big cities), big houses are affordable. Space wise, they can live comfortably with 10 children.

[@notyourbestie]

before as humans our only problem is to hunt food and look for mate. now, our boss, our jobs, our salaries, our partners and the gifts/life we give them, our families who needs financial support, who likes us, who doesn't, social media, house prices, stock market etc. see the difference? we made our lives too complicated, we already removed the basics we do as humans in the equation. we skip meals, sleep less, sx less all bc of the other musts that society have set in our minds.

[@TheYoli182]

Thank you. The powers that be made this problem and getting mad at their subjects when we don't reproduce.

[@tanhql]

Parenting should be a paid career. If the mother or father quits his/her job to be a full time parent, they should receive monthly salary from the government and that salary should be on par with their last received salary, with yearly increments like a regular salary and of course, increments with every additional child.

[@nilnil8072]

Men are still valued by bringing in the bacon, if they do less work and later dun get promotion .. they get blame. No men leave a women when they dun bring in the money, women leave men when they don’t instead.

[@gotthecutenessoverload1086]

Hard truth. 33% more likely to divorce if the man loses his job according to the Times.

[@notyourbestie]

you know what the next generation's problem would be? more competitive society where their talents doesn't give them money anymore as everyone are as talented as they are. another is them being too independent. our society right now is busy making a living, less time is spent to family. add that aside of taking care of kids during at home is we also spend so much time with our phones, that's less connection to them and them becoming more individualistic, very introverted.

[@HeavenlyUmbreon]

salary is low everywhere cant even catch up to inflation and gst hike

[@chilieping]

Yes, the only way is to ban tuitions and make Singapore a more equal/less competitive society. Take China as example, before it transformed into capitalism, people there had high birth rate despite the fact that many were starving, but now their urban birth rate is miserable, I heard Shanghai is even lower than Singapore.

[@ocswoodlands]

truth is simple. 0 kids - FI (RE Optional) by 40/45 yo 2 kids - work till 60 yo. i have 2 kids myself and i am not sure if its good for my children to have children. getting married is definitely good though...

[@robocop581]

I'm 60 with two grandchildren. Pure joy and excitement for me

[@Junipup]

Coming from a mother who left her job to take care of kids full time. The reason some people have children is the joy of raising them, apart from other functional reasons like bonding as a couple, bringing families together and someone to care for you while you are older. Personally costs make people think twice about having more children so while cost subsidies help, cost is not the sole reason why people want to have children. Think about it... I do not want to have children cause children are "cheap". I want to have children because I value the experiences and joy they bring, and that pull factor is one consideration I feel we have not explored very much yet. Hence that is the same reason why I took this "work" break, to take care of my children.

[@wildpasta]

Not everyone sees children as joy. Promoting that raising children is joyful is not gonna work.

[@libiskit]

​@wildpasta it's a joy that no amount of amount of logic a childless person or couple can ever figure out. And the work part, yeah that is so well advertised through anecdotes your friends tell you, so the only way (apart from financial) is to inspire ppl Oh by the way, anecdotal I have alot of friends who earn more then me and still complain abt having kids, to me it's just mindset - we need to encourage ppl through positivity and hope

[@jeremyyip1945]

Life in a postmodern successful economy is all about propping up inflation. No incentive can match that. We are well past the point of evolving into homo economicus. But we’re not alone on this journey - Italy, Japan, South Korea, New York… all have basement-level tfrs.

[@Xephaholic]

It all stems with not having enough income? The normal or middle income is 3-4k. We have so much bills to pay as an adult. Has our salary increased within the years? nope. Has the bills increased over the years? yup.While you try to justify why you always have to raise the bills , but when we asked to justify why isnt the salary raised.Why isnt the QOL raised ? No one said anything...?? sure , there are policies but they are just panadols for cancer. The core issue is that we dont want to bring up children that has to suffer like us (millenials). We end up as adults who try to buy back all the items we wished we had as a child. We already have issues with living from day to day as fellow adults. Not to mention having to bring up a child. We have medical bills to pay for , installments, baby diapers , baby milk , etc the list could never end. Also , we need our child to remain competitive. Bringing up a child is not like ordering mcdonalds. its a life long commitment. You still gotta worry about your child till you pass away. (im not a parent but this is what its like having a child) this is considering my child is PERFECTLY HEALTHY. How about you look at how the other countries are able to provide so much union support , even being unemployed allows you to have the same QOL (Quality of life) as working. That is when the AI will come into picture..? Universal Wage? If everything is cheap, its just a matter of time we blow up with fertility. Dont have to worry about anything , just making child all day. Look at the older generations or those who live in farms? Just doing your work and then make babies at night. Food is abundance. Space is abundance. Why are we overcomplicating things?? Look at the response for WFH. Everyone was asking for it , but they are just GUIDELINES. there's no OBLIGATIONS to follow at all. THEN WHY RAISE UP IN THE FIRST PLACE? its like telling a litter guy to stop littering , untill you threw out fines and it stopped. That was the way it had been for Sg too. wanna stop something? fine them ? WE LACK UTTER WORK LIFE BALANCE. WE LACK HAPPINESS. WE LACK of SO MANY THINGS for the middle income families. While all the support is given to the poor. The middle struggle to get any because they dont fall in any of the categories! its like the middle child born in a family with the lack of love! Singapore doesnt even seem to be a place for our own singaporeans anymore. My thoughts is this , we live in EARTH. Why should I suffer living in my own home country when there are other stuff out there which is much cheaper and better? its the same saying as all the bosses here too. " Why pay Sg when I can get cheaper workers out there ? " Sure , I could leave Sg too. It's just going to turn into a trend where we Singaporeans leave and turn into brain drain. if any , things were so much stable when LKY was around where he addressed core issues with reasonable plans to tackle. A few hundred dollars is just a drop in a bucket when it comes to raising a child. you can say we are the best at everything , but you also forgot one thing. We are also BEST at giving politically right answers to save troubles. so do what you want and see if the reports are true...? I personally dont trust reports anymore. Its like HR department saying they keep secrecy when doing exit interviews.

[@kakaboo]

yep its mostly because the adults are suffering now so they feel like like they don't want their child to suffer the same things in the future. everywhere so crowded, suffocating. apply 1 job got 100-200 hundreds of applicants, can't even get interviews. take mrt see ppl with pram cant even board the train sometimes. see your colleagues with children send them to childcare center, but the childcare center so slack, everytime ask them to bring back the kids over small issues, childcare center close for events etc.and so on.

[@koalatheworld]

Thank you for speaking up. 👏

[@jamesmadison3108]

That work home narrative.. its just not doable for everyone. U can't expect a McDonald's staff in the kitchen working from home. It's really based on job scope.

[@aaronwee5956]

That's a lot to unpack, but which other country is better to raise kids? Singapore is tough, but other counties got other problems to deal with as well.

[@jamesmadison3108]

@aaronwee5956 that is why there are lotsa people in Singapore who love to whine and complain but never know what other parts of the world are facing. We are very much better than them in alot of aspect. Apart from wages, we have stability, security, safety, good opportunities to upgrade ourselves to earn a higher income. The people who complain are just good at one thing, complaining. In Singapore with the abundance of opportunities, one can upgrade oneself to earn a better income to enjoy luxuries and much more. Remember, we can be born poor, but if we die poor, it's our fault. Stop complaining and do something. No one owes us a living.

[@ethan5819]

We only have good infrastructure, support for economy. But look at our infrastructure/cost for infants and children as well as inclusivity for Special needs. It is tougher.

[@a.r6208]

need to build bigger more affordable flats+ 100K baby bonus + free local uni for all kids if they get accepted + need to make it affordable for single income households to survive in SG. No two ways around it. Truth is a lot of women don't mind not working and will have kids if its financially viable in Sg. Onus is on govt to bring housing/land price valuation reforms + baby bonus reforms + labour mobility reforms to give Singaporeans more peace of mind to have children. Sg is a very very very cut throat place. A lot of policy makers don't feel it because they are not exposed to the competition anymore once they lock in their govt scholarship.

[@angiemf9033]

Live within one’s means. If one is looking for free hand outs then one is not having children because they want to. They have chn for freebies which is very sad

[@Duperman2494]

Gov always stresses prudence, PRUDENCE! Just because a few of us can afford to rent black and white houses doesn't mean you can. PRUDENCE!

[@aislinggormley4731]

Society has spent years telling women that having and raising children is not valuable. It has been seen derogatory to expect men to lower themselves to do "womens work" Women are chastised for staying home and raising children (costing tax payers money), being a working mother (neglecting children), and working part-time (chastised for both). We can see true equality, and its not caring for men, children and holding down a full time job. Previously, society remained stable due to the unpaid and unrecognised work of women. We are recognising our value, and choosing our own happiness now. It won't change unless we see true equality.

[@Duperman2494]

True equality? Sure, come serve 2yrs of national service with us along with 10 cycles of reservist and don't forget the annual ippt.

[@gotthecutenessoverload1086]

Lol, didn't serve NS still talk about equality 🤣🤣

[@gotthecutenessoverload1086]

@@Duperman2494 women here get 2 to 3 years headstart in their education and careers compared to their peers and they still have the cheek to cry inequality.

[@Fakeslimshady]

Wait, what? Society is recognizing women's work, therefore... women aren't doing womens' work? Make it make sense.

[@libiskit]

​@@Duperman2494my wife holds a job down and takes care of my 2 kids without helper. Yet her boss still as the cheek to tell her that she is not pulling her weight when her work is a few hours late... now that my friend is inequality

[@anglo-saxonconnor817]

❤Because one time handout schemes doesn't help at all. In the past the whole system is better than today. The cost of living and speed of inflation is way lower and the moment you are able to raise your kids into adulthood or uni they can figure out what to do in the working world on their own with lots of prospects, opportunities, professions and promotions to entice them to figure out how to spur on by their own will. In today time this system have been corrupted and destroyed already so there is no point in forming families and giving birth anymore. The moment politicians and corporates merge together this world have already been ruined. Their alliance can only benefit and grow themselves fat for a generation time only at the expense of eating up everyone else futures away. Thats why the entire world is crumbling and weak in foundation nowadays. I see it as karma and retribution as these are all man made choices. The rich and callous will of course mock at the working class as usual but in the long course of time actually all will not be able to pull through once the bottom deck are pulled away. But humans being humans as long as the consequences doesn't reach us in our lifetime we couldnt care less in life. That is where the problem lie.

[@AStarVlogs]

It’s funny that the actual reasons many of us have to not having children are not discussed. How do you solve a problem if you are going the wrong direction?

[@knockitdown20]

Great topic and touches almost every couple in Singapore. CNA should have a whole series discussing this because it is about Singapore's survival. For example each episode could focus on one key aspect of raising a child, or another format could be each episode based on the phases of childhood eg. infant phase, preschool, primary school secondary school etc. Also please note that not all first world countries have low fertility rate so our "experts" shouldn't just surrender and say "it's inevitable". Look at Australia. Look at United States. They have a healthy fertility rate. please learn from them

[@gavinlew8273]

It makes far more sense for a child to be born in Australia than in SG. I'd love to settle in Aussie too!

[@doodlemecrzy8075]

Kids take a lot of time, energy and money for responsible parents. They are 20+ year projects that can turn out normal, well or truly bad. When we start out at 30+ , there is a biological-financial limit on how many we can have that's why most couples end up with 2 max these days. I have seen couples in their late forties retrenched with school going kids that have no access to social security, those are terrible situations. Also we need to consider saving & investing for our retirement. Those who have 3 or more either tend to be better off in terms of family wealth, have strong family community or belong to the impoverished class where they do not plan or take precautions.

[@EXie-df5pk]

Why are the people in the interview so old? Shouldn’t they get people who are in the right generation to answer the question?

[@Steven.Chia.Singapore]

hey...who you calling old! 🤣

[@demo1234-w6l]

Selfishness is in every individual. Back then ppl give birth becos of ROI. Now ppl, don’t give birth also becos of ROI. U want birth rate to go up, u must make giving birth into high ROI thing for the ppl. Since, the dawn of time, all events are trigger becos of ROI. Remember,ROI is not is not only quantitative, it could be qualitative.

[@HaziqRosli-d6v]

Because EXTREME CRAZY COSTS > pathetic chicken wing incentives. ($1.5 MILLION PUBLIC HOUSING > $10,000 baby bonus) Wait for BTO? BTO takes over 5 years. Is this a government-mandated test to see how long can you stay with your in-laws before you divorce? Rent is not even an option now because there's no price regulation. If a family cannot survive on a single paycheck with an income of $5,000 a month without grants and subsidies, Singapore is too expensive. Let's not play with words like 'household income' when multiple generations with 2-5 contributors are forced to stay in the same household. That is the bar - one paycheck, one household, $5,000 a month, no terms and conditions. I dare you to say 'affordable housing' to that.

[@jamesmadison3108]

But why u peg to a 5000 salary? You have to be logical as well. How you expect a 2 adults with kids to survive on 5k? That's low income if u compare that globally with first world countries. Don't compare to third world or developing countries. Be fair in your debate, not just whine and bullshit.

[@HaziqRosli-d6v]

@@jamesmadison3108 $5,000 is the median income. Duh. Mr Obviously Foreign James Madison doesn't belong in this conversation if he doesn't even know why I peg to the commonly known $5000. Oh and btw, why don't you explain the 0.97 fertility rate according The Bullshit Tales of Mr James Madison. Enlighten us oh master of the universe.

[@wtfbbqz]

it's the money. I have 150k cash and after buying my house and getting married i'll be left with almost nothing let alone have a child

[@libiskit]

if you save you will make it. And yr salary will increase. Be encouraged . PS I'm not that old myself. In my thirties

[@Farmersyoungseniors]

1st word to describe…”Lazy” 2nd word to describe …” selfish “ Is she the right person to be interviewed?

[@Technoking83]

Save Singapore dollar and quickly retire and spend it on another country makes more sense than having babies

[@Jeff1255]

Too expensive. In SG, you either stay low or go high. Ngl the subsidies and financial aid for low income families is quite stonks. Meanwhile , Middle class = Suffering class

[@tobyc8668]

TLDR, I see the key reason is modern, educated woman see a strong need to keep up social appearance among their peers in terms of material/career aspects over having a child to contribute to the country.

[@chezcake]

I do not agree with the point where Crispina points out that parents opt for private preschool as compared to pcf sparkletots. The preschool system is not so robust to consider lower income earners for priority when they sign up for "cheaper" preschools such as Sparkletot. We had a hard time getting a placement for my kid, when I see parents driving Porshe SUV and picking up their kids in sparkletot uniforms.

[@derekwhittom1639]

My parents were not poor. My dad is a multimillionaire now, my mom died with about $1.5m in assets. 35 years ago when I was 10, we had a typical middle-class life by those standards. When I calculate what a typical family breakfast, lunch and dinner for us (2 parents, 3 children), would cost today, it’s about $15 a day. In today’s money. The expectations have grown to such an incredible degree, it’s insane. My mom would make french toast on sundays. For the family in today’s money, that’s like $3-4 maybe. For the family. My mom would regularly make cookies. 4 dozen for about $10 in today’s money. People are getting a dozen crumbl cookies delivered to them for $80. What insanity to spend that type of money on a treat. Yet we think it’s normal.

[@derekwhittom1639]

Children aren’t expensive. It’s the enormous crazy expectations that are so expensive.

[@PeaceHopeLight]

One child here costs one million dollars. Nobody can afford

[@frankchong5585]

What Steven proposed, i'm pretty sure we will see positive sign birth rate

[@gabrielvideo3852]

The experts and gov are not willing to take bold radical moves to improve fertility rate. I have a radical idea which might do it. Universal basic income for families with at least 1 kid below 18. Provide all the basic supplies for kids at no cost, free baby milk powder, free education, free meals, everything free for a kid until they become taxpayers themselves. It takes a village to raise a kid, so all tax payers have to chip in. Without financial worries, people will be more willing to have kids. With such uncertain market conditions now and jobs are less secure, people think twice. If people did not need to work to support their kids, im sure they will have kids.

[@mic5391]

Should be for families with 2 or more children!

[@Fakeslimshady]

Don't forget womens charter

[@Sllee93]

0:32 wow this shaming of new generation not replacing…I guess this stigma is here to stay. Thanks CNA.

[@libiskit]

ironically, it works both ways, met alot of folks who shun children and think they are nothing but difficulty and trouble and expensive... all while drinking their $7 bubble tea.

[@pov72]

Benefits are widely seen as short term while kids are long term, if all tax benefits can be to when kids turn 18 instead of immediate to the 1st 7 or 12 years.

[@tawanium]

We humans did this onto ourselves. Maybe we are just over informed of too many things making us too stressed as a result. Dr. Norman made a good point about people procreating even under starvation and poverty. Our current generation is materially so much better off but it doesn’t seem to be enough. 😅 oh dear

[@eddyng6067]

Food , life style are also play an important role in producing babies.my family got 10 children. My uncle's first wife got 10 children. The second wife got 3 children. Back then 1950,1960 people consumed natural food without preservatives, not many canned food in those years. life without stress. My eldest brother was 20 years older than me. Pregnancy is as easy as ABC

[@robinsoncrusoe8855]

social media plays a big influence on how young people think, they see influencers not wanting kids, they just travel, own pets, vlog food, do nothing. These false influencers give people illusion to crave that lifestyle too. Others will say they don’t want to bring life in this messed up world, global warming, etc.. i don’t really buy that. Humans are resilient beings, we’ve been through a lot and future generations will thrive.

[@koalatheworld]

Steve Chia is so funny with the "I don't give my numbers" 😂😂😂😂

[@norman6499]

When u at work, u worry about kids, when u with kids, u think about social media. These type of parents are abundance in sg…uncommitted people…super involved father? Yea right, easy to say…spend 5 mins with kids can also be super involved right?

[@ecclairmayo4153]

Exactly. The interaction starting at 6:10 tells us everything we need to know. The man says he got his life back rather quickly. Women do not have that luxury. The woman next to him even talked about the physical toll of childbirth for life.

[@tkmnus2023]

A bigger cash payout for marriages and childbirths would be needed to incentivize, once the cash is large enough it would encourage all sorts of creative solutions, faster and earlier matching industry and marriages, full time parenthoods, more foreign spouses, more babies by already productive couples etc. The meagre amounts currently do not reflect the existential crisis, which can be addressed by monetary solutions now, which can be paid for by attracting more foreign talents and business.

[@Sththy]

The population can’t expand faster than the number of flats being built. The chronic shortage/lag of BTOs is the root cause.

[@Djiejejdj]

Sorry but one child is miserable. Im an only child and for the child 9 out of 10 it is horrible. Especially if female and our parents becone senior or no longer around. If youre gna have just one kid on purpose just have NONE.

[@donnylimlin5348]

Because the incentives re not enough to cover the rising cost .

[@neoweemin872]

Worst come to worst Singapore just return to Malaysia...LKY era is over and new Singaporeans will forget his struggles and find the easy way out ..

[@lissalow]

Because women have been sold the dream since they were young: 'You should be a super successful CEO. You should work hard and be a globe-trotting, power woman.' So we slogged out guts out studying for 20 years. Obviously we want to keep pursuing our careers. The vision in our mind has been cemented - smart, beautiful, powerful. A stay-home mother with her old tshirt and shorts, messy hair and crying children - that seems like the opposite of successful. Nobody tells us it is good to dream of becoming a mother. Nobody tells us how important it is to raise the next generation of singapore society well. No alumni is given the stage to share about how they grew up and became a housewife - only the career women. We see articles about women in the navy and airforce - amazing, truly. But where's the article that applauds women who are homeschooling their 5 kids or women who quit their jobs as doctors, accountants or teachers to become a stay-home mother? They exist, but they are not recognised. Change your words, change people's mindset. Then the outcome will change too.

[@ecclairmayo4153]

The image you described for the single mother- does that sound appealing to you? Why would any sane person aspire to that? You literally just described an overly stressed woman. That's the very image women without children see in their everyday lives and they know what's behind it. They understand the interaction in this video starting at 6:10 where the man says he got his life back fairly quickly and the woman next to him and the story of her and her mother...not so much. Even the woman's body is ruined and essentially sick for the rest of her life many times. Women see this and can use their brain. Nobody is selling them a dream. They are smart enough on their own to know what is best for their lives. They can see one option is most likely a life of seemingly never ending stress, health problems worry. The other is not. That, coupled with the cost of living and trying to keep up economically with children..and there should be little wonder why women are choosing not to pursue family or even date at all.

[@markfish1113]

Its $$$ issue, u give each couple 100k baby bonus, locals will date and make babies. Cheaper to import foreigners though.

[@EXie-df5pk]

totally, try giving a hundred k per kid, let’s see the result!

[@d15z1sux]

The more educated and the more developed a nation is the lower the birth rate.

[@norhishamisa3187]

With housing needs such as BTO difficult to get despite applying many times for married couples and singles those 35 and above and also jobs hard to get despite applying many times, I am sure you can imagine what will happen if Singaporeans have lots of children.

[@muhdfarhan7720]

You need to have 3 broods to replace yourself and your spouse. If you have two, you are just replacing yourself. Also.. give us who is not making babies via race and also age group. At the same time, the salary can't keep up with the pricing of BTO's new launch. Coz it's being affected by resale prices.

[@andrewchan5153]

Why is the government complaning about declining birthrates when this pleases their WEF and ESG policy overlords who wants depopulation? Anyways being born into such a cruel world and forced to do forced military service, might as well not be born at all. I liken this to Singapore facing retribution for its years of forced military service.

[@sr3821]

Where in the world incentive for having babies gives desired result?

[@LonganLee]

We must not suggest its due to Stress in the city as its politically incorrect

[@Ruth-os4mi]

Population collapse . . . Good : For families. Bad: For corporations.

[@nilnil8072]

I wonder does the numbers it include those born overseas ? If you see the number of women marrying overseas men, are their kids counted ?

[@pov72]

Having kids is such a joke with light jokes and eyes rolling with the presenters now and it will evolve to firmer nays in the future years.

[@caligula4725]

Foreigner will gladfully takeover your job when you are on leaves

[@AceAce-po7wo]

Kids are great, who is going to send you to old folks home when you are old?

[@marymary25960]

You should already be planning for your elderly phase and NOT relying on your children. When we bring children into this world you have to know they owe us as parents absolutely nothing. Many elderly in homes and elder care complain their children don't come see them at all. Don't rely on your kids to take care of you, be an adult, plan ahead, pay for assistance, don't be lazy and entitled.

[@lingjw]

Money is not important? Oh come on! Sponsor everything for my kids and I will have as many as I can. The grants ain't working because everytime we get the grants, the people providing the basic necessities sees it and increase their price in tandem! They can sit all day brainstorming about why fertility is dropping when the answer is just right before them. Makes you wonder are they distracting us from the problem? End of the day when nothing is done, the population will collapse.

[@mrpolarbearrrrr]

We have foreign talents from 🇮🇳 to compensate for the low fertility among Singaporeans.

[@ratedchamp1]

We should encourage couples to marry below 25 years old , it might be a radical idea , but women after 30 face to much stress from work and demand to much from husband , confinement nanny , confinement meal etc etc , scaring couples away . A younger women would breast feed and not be to worried and stressed

[@Keonggreen]

I understand stress from work but many adults below 25 are still in their education phase. Most in uni. Studying can be a very consuming day to day activity too.

[@libiskit]

that's precisely why we should shorten up uni and high school by one year each... honestly 4 year course .. ppl just play , or force themselves to do 5 to 10 internships... or both.. might as well finish uni by 21 for girls and 23 for boys - everyone start work earlier, live life with some financial backing and then marry earlier

[@charmaine8512]

It is not about wealth _ it is about choosing to follow the modern trend or live like our ancestors did _ be family focused OR OR OR career focused. Women in Arab countries are still family focused but many of us in developing countries are wanting to chase the developed world career path. No way one should have children if women prefer career. Dont have kids as the kids are at the mercy of government _ not elders or neighbourhoods

[@blurgirl79]

the world is different now, we can't compare with the past.

[@gabrielng3449]

I feel very sorry for holly's son. She literally is dissing her son on tv

[@cheros8949]

only one reason in my mind.. i think that happen when women go out working.. if the economy demand women for go out working, that will be happen tho

[@ChirpyTwitty]

Char Siew or kids.. ? I choose Char Siew 😂😂😂

[@steventay5834]

The main concern is money lah. No more job security. If government gives me $500k per baby, then ok

[@KelvinLow-j5i]

OK, but u have to sell the baby to the govt too.

[@Hermantan]

a discussion that solves nothing.