Why Atheism Makes More Sense

This clip is taken from an exchange between Trent Horn and Alex O'Connor, available in full here: • Why I Am/Am Not a Chri...
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[@CosmicSkeptic]

This clip is taken from an exchange between Trent Horn and Alex O'Connor, available in full here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mne8o5mBfbiJaM0si=AiR3Xlym49eX8A4V

[@Seratan144]

I choose to believe. I confessed my sins, asked Jesus to forgive me, and never looked back. Whatever doubts that may infect my mind from time to time I still pray, meditate, contemplate and believe. When People are asked, “Do you believe in God? It is either: yes, no or not sure. If one is not sure, that means they don’t believe. Since the atheist answers the question with no, that means he believes there is no God. The atheist says there is evidence that suggests the universe may be cosmic accident. They say a singularity erupted and created all of this. A singularity is something that exists outside of time and space. Nobody has ever seen this singularity. No one could tell you its properties. Yet they still believe it exists. That is faith. The atheists say they have evidence. Evidence means you are interpreting. How can any of us assure ourselves that we have no confirmation bias? We make mistakes. We are human. Evidence can be manufactured and dishonest. It can be misinterpreted. For these reasons lawyers, and not scientists run, the world. So, the atheist has double faith: Faith that there is no God and faith that the evidence is honest and well understood. I do not see myself as a proselyte. I am a humble wretch. I am not smarter or better than anybody. I committed to God. I have seen Him work in my life and the lives of others. It is not unreasonable to believe in God. Exercising my faith has brought me everything in my life that I value. My life isn’t perfect but I always feel the love of God in my heart. There is nothing better than feeling the love of God in one’s heart, in my experience. I am always confident and in a constant state of joy.

[@joshuataylor3550]

Obviously morality was selected for.

[@raya.p.l5919]

❤Jesus power. All sheep black and white are allowed level 1 portion of youth longevity digestion an self beauty Jesus energy wash tonight at 11 02 eastren. We don't think we are sheep because we don't know who the wolfs are. We have always been the prey. Negative energy will creep out yr feet tell it's time

[@joshuadressendorfer6712]

Is atheism just a cope for the responsibility of mitigating the consequences of our sin? Do humans find comfort in meaninglessness because it justifies all of their bad behavior and allows them freedom to lie, steal, cheat, and sin, with no consequence?

[@wet-read]

@@joshuadressendorfer6712 Do you really think that is or could be the case? Are negative consequences the only reason not to do certain things?

[@genzu6388]

My favourite part of the bible was when Alex said "CosmicSceptic is dead, I killed him."

[@StelBoy2008]

Yet his @ handle never died.

[@JohnnyPlsCumMe]

My few twitter mutuals still address me "Cosmic"... 💀💀💀💀

[@genzu6388]

@@JohnnyPlsCumMe r/notCosmicScepticbutok

[@audiebridge3103]

Did he just change it to appear more professional. Personally I love goofy youtube names

[@Finneseyou]

Why’d he change it

[@jeanne-marie8196]

Alex’ arguments, as usual, are so well put. His words bring questions one may never have considered thus causing critical thinking

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I've been struggling with the concept of suffering for many years ( both in the world and in my personal life ). So I also appreciate Alex's questions. Respectfully...

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

​@@augmentedfourth846 I tend to agree with you because I struggle with many of the same questions as Alex does. I'm a Christian believer. Respectfully..

[@macmac1022]

I find I often have asked the same questions before I see him ask them in a video. I still have some I dont think he has touched. Why do so many people avoid simple questions? Never seen him ask that and yet its something we see politicians do all the time. I spent 2.5 years figuring that out and trying to find a solution.

[@kettenschlosd]

i am an og fan id like to think. i distinctly remember questionimg his choice of study. But it paid of hard, he has develloped his eloquence and knowledge so much. Ive been watching him more recently, and while i always admired alex, these days he just strikes me as already being an intellectuel himself. i am so curius where he will be in 5 to 10 years. this sounds super soy but still somehow snobbish. as a non native speaker i have trouble hitting the tone at times. ill still hit send to not have wasted time. be informed that i am not actually this cringe and pretentious.

[@fragileomniscience7647]

Meh, he argues good for a theologian. But let's be clear, he aint no mathematician or logician, and it shows.

[@personhuman7778]

They never let the plant speak :(

[@claudiamanta1943]

That’s the Tree of Knowledge grown in a pot 😏

[@jasonlongsworth4036]

:///

[@RealBenda]

So eloquent, so gentle, so poignant. You inspire me, friend.

[@grahamstone1198]

Alex denies the existence of heaven, yet he sits on the brightest, most angelically blinding stage imaginable. Checkmate atheists.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

What do you mean by " most angelically blinding stage imaginable" ? I don't understand. I'm a Christian believer. Thanks

[@PennDraken]

​@@johnbrzykcy3076He means that the stage is very white and bright.

[@grahamstone1198]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 yeah, it was just a dumb joke about how bright the background is

[@johnpacino007]

🗣" Christianity is tacked on at the end to account for all the pitiless suffering on the evolutionary timescale. Really?🤔 What about humanism, animal rights, wokeism, the mantra of a fair and just society, etc.? Isn't that the atheist, naturalist attempt at idealism to account for suffering? Everything Mr. O'Connor throws at the feet of Christianity could equally be said, in good measure, for atheist naturalism. The problem is there's no redemptive power in the atheistic, naturalist worldview like there is in the Christian worldview through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! "

[@TheSpinkels]

To me it makes complete sense that religion began as and remains a tool to garner peace of mind, starting first to give a foundation of understanding by which to walk upon by those awakening in a world where nothing was known or certain. Comfort to know where you and everything in the world came from, and how the many natural forces within it work and operate. Furthermore, by personifying all of these aspects of reality, not only were they made to be somewhat less fear-worthy, but also by whatever tenets of faith tied to them, by rituals, sacrifices, and other such acts of devotion, it might be felt that you could exert some control over them, however small.

[@etherealstars5766]

I would also add that having a concept of purpose external to subjective joy would be a perfect tool for evolution. If we were to conclude that there was no objective meaning, we might think that extinction is the ultimate release of suffering because there is no purpose to proliferate.

[@psychee1]

One thing religion is very good at, is serving as a social adhesive. It is extremely good at tying people together into communities under common rules (and I think this is a primary function for which it formed alongside being a coping mechanism/providing answers to the unknown). This would be extremely useful to tie communities together beyond familial bonds. Of course, as the groups grow they tend to lean towards the more authoritarian side of things.

[@TestMeatDollSteak]

@@psychee1- Its adhesive aspect seems to be the most useful, the harder life is for a particular group. The more downtrodden, impoverished, enslaved, and mistreated a group of people is, the stronger their religious faith tends to be.

[@psychee1]

@@TestMeatDollSteak Absolutely, it doubles as a coping mechanism when life hits us hard. If life is hopeless and unfair it helps to believe in some sort of cosmic justice that will eventually square things.

[@TestMeatDollSteak]

@@AustGM - What would be the point of explaining oneself to an omniscient deity? An all knowing God should know why I’ve done literally everything in my life better than I do. If he needs me to explain anything to him, he isn’t all knowing. And, if God didn’t want people to “sin”, then he should have just granted us the same moral nature that he has, since he supposedly has “free will” and yet can’t sin.

[@theophilussogoromo3000]

As someone that lives in a poor and religious country, from my experience religion is a cope for people who have it bad in life.

[@kingriversea]

There are rich prophets and prophets that were offered every material things but rejected

[@fixpontt]

plus poor countries have bad education system, in order to repel religion you need 2 thing: relative good live and good education system in your country, every single country with these two religion slowly (sometimes fast) disappear, so neither poverty or stupidity can pull you back to religion

[@theophilussogoromo3000]

@@kingriversea it's very obvious what's motivating those type of people, and it's the same as the poor. It's nihilism.

[@macdonald2k]

​@@kingriverseaSimple. You are seeing the difference between the true believers and the ritualistic.

[@martymoo]

Brilliant! It's a rare treat to hear an informed discussion on this topic. I've been conditioned to expect a debate between a theologian and a scientist (usually either a biologist or an astrophysicist) rather than a more direct philosophical encounter. Refreshing and more dialectic. 👍 (I'm something of a scientist/mythologist/philosopher myself...)

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I agree with you. I'm a Christian believer but I do struggle with the same questions as Alex does. Respectfully...

[@fredrikfjeld1575]

That whole discussion between Alex and Trent is a bit of a let down. Alex answers wonderfully and goes through everything Trent takes out of context that he said or pushed on with statements Alex has never uttered or ment. However, Alex also lets Trent use that to not answer the question that Alex actually gave or to the statement that Alex actually gave. Trent rather changes the topic and pushes on Alex, while Alex lets it slip to the next topic without doing the same. which of course happens in almost all of these debates and might be what people like Hitchens and Dillahunty are best at: Keeping the others to the topic until they give an answer.

[@fredrikfjeld1575]

@nickers7409 yeah I agree. It is easy to enter into that mode since the other part just keeps on giving new arguments and never relent. I end up doing it all the time myself. It is even easier I would think for Alex to end up in that position, since he knows the arguments, the reasonings behind it and where the thought came from so well. So of course he has answers for it, so that is why he keeps on answering with his well thought out arguments and reasonings, getting caught up in that, not really noticing the slip the other person did. It can be hard to see it afterwards, but even harder to notice it while the discussion is ongoing.

[@bdnnijs192]

As a lifelong atheist. It never occured to me I should be a nihilist untill Christian evangslists tried to convince me I am so I need God to solve that. 😂

[@nikokapanen82]

Nihilism happens to honest atheists who thinks deeply. When they begin to actually ponder what is the meaning of life what is the point of living and especially why should you strive to be decent, selfless, humble, helpful, generous etc. person, here all the honest atheists acknowledges that even if you can feel subjective feelings to act decently, there is zero objective reason why should you.

[@gm2407]

Nihilism happens when the individual fails to provide their own meaning for their actions and goals. You get out of life what you put into it. If there is no one to do something for, do it for yourself.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

​@@nikokapanen82no such thing as an objective reason to do moral acts. Morality is by definition subjective, even if it is prescribed by a god. You can't get an ought from an is.

[@JoBo301]

what is the point of your life as an atheist?

[@lenglonr6198]

​@@JoBo301It's what you make of it. If you make your life about enslaving yourself to religion, then that's what the point of your life is about. If you make your life about caring for your fellow humans, then that's what the point of your life is about.

[@mr.c2485]

Religion is certainly our first attempt at dealing with suffering. We have since moved on…. Well…some of us.

[@tylere.8436]

Moved on to what? Secular insanity? Even with the advancements of technology and knowledge, has anything really fundamentally changed in the past few hundred years for the human condition? No, it hasn't.

[@jamba622]

Man I can remember when Alex was a high schooler already a bright thoughtful boy. Then it was off to Oxford. He’s become an awesome young man. Looking forward to many more years of his sharing his thought with us.

[@Cor6196]

Hell, I remember when he was in diapers and staring up at the mobile spinning slowly above his crib: "Ah, yes, Sammy the Lamby - good thing he's a Stoic 'cause his next stop's the Slaughterhouse. Now there's Dicky the Doggy - he's a Stray Cynic, thrown out of shelters, living in alleyways. But adjusting! "Oh! Kathy Kitty! She is an Epicurean, always licking herself and liking it! Now Peter Pig. He's a Platonist, and I don't like him! Perfect forms, ideal existence. The One! Get a grip, man! Move on, will you? "Ooh, Milly the Mouse. I like her best! British, and Ancient Greek when she was 3! How I look forward to Declensions! And Oxford, too, of course, but waiting is learning, I think. Therefore I am? "Now I'm wet again! I can't change myself, naturally, but I CAN change my attitude. Nursey gave me the Meditations for precisely these circumstances. Now where is it? Did I kick it out? Not on the floor!!! Nothing but suffering again!"

[@claudiamanta1943]

Oh, the declensions! I just Kant do Classical Greek. I’m going to throw a Post- Post Modernist tantrum as I’ve developed a terrible 3s Sartrian crisis. The world is pointless; nonetheless, I’ll go to Oxford to learn how to talk a lot about nothing.

[@jamba622]

@@claudiamanta1943 just cause you don’t understand it doesn’t make it nothing. It makes it something you don’t understand

[@claudiamanta1943]

@@jamba622 Did you just call me stupid? 😃

[@jamba622]

@claudiamanta1943 I've not even used or even implied the word stupid. How odd. I pointed out that not understanding something doesn't make it nothing. If you think that makes you stupid, that's on you.

[@theintelligentmilkjug944]

No, there's still suffering for people who believe. I'm a Christian and even I know that my life would be a lot easier if I gave up and just stopped praying, stopped acknowledging that there is a God, and stopped doing the will of God. Doing the right thing is never easy that's partially why I believe. Honest Christians who don't use God's name to oppress others know that being a believer isn't easy. Although ultimately there would be less suffering in the long term, for the believer in the short term it wouldn't be a functional coping mechanism.

[@RainbowSixIntel]

While you argue that being a Christian adds to your suffering rather than alleviating it, your position reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and benefits of religious faith, according to the very Bible you adhere to. First, the New Testament is filled with examples of faith serving as a profound source of comfort and strength in times of trouble. Think of Paul, who spoke of 'a peace that surpasses understanding' (Philippians 4:7) even while imprisoned. Secondly, the Bible itself warns against moral complacency. The challenges you're complaining about? They're not bugs; they're features. They are the 'refining fire' spoken of in Isaiah 48:10, designed to strengthen your faith and character. To complain that Christianity makes your life more difficult is to misunderstand its transformative aim entirely. Not to mention, you claim that life would be easier without the yoke of Christianity, but easier doesn't mean better. The Bible is replete with warnings about the ease of a life lived in sin and the ultimate cost of such a life. Proverbs 14:12 says, 'There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end, it leads to death.' Your argument that Christianity increases suffering in the short term misses the mark entirely, both in the context of the teachings of the Bible and in the broader scope of ethical living.

[@theintelligentmilkjug944]

@@RainbowSixIntel Okay I see what you mean the Bible does teach that trials strengthens our relationship with God, and I totally agree that an easier life doesn't mean a better life. I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that it adds to your suffering what I was trying to appeal to was the idea that it would be easier to do the wrong thing, but that doesn't mean we should do the wrong thing.

[@RainbowSixIntel]

thank you for acknowledging the points about trials and the quest for an 'easier' life. I appreciate your humility in admitting where you misspoke. I think the crux of the misunderstanding lies in conflating 'ease' with 'quality of life.' You're right: it's often easier to make morally dubious decisions, but the Bible teaches us that the easy path isn't always the right one. Remember Matthew 7:13-14, where it talks about the narrow and wide gates? 'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.' The idea here isn't that Christianity adds to your suffering, but rather that it equips you with the moral and spiritual tools to navigate a complex, often difficult world. The trials aren't obstacles but stepping stones, helping to refine us as the Bible suggests. Have an amazing day!@@theintelligentmilkjug944

[@theintelligentmilkjug944]

@@RainbowSixIntel You have a nice day too, thank you for your wise responses.

[@joannware6228]

Truly Becoming A Christian Is The Most Liberating Thing That Can Happen To A person In This Life.

[@wet-read]

Why is that, exactly?

[@lawrence1318]

@@wet-readBecause Christ sets you free from the pressure to try to be good.

[@joygibbons5482]

My experience was the exact opposite of that@@lawrence1318

[@fadesignyt]

Christ was a Muslim and god can not have a son

[@DCminh-pe9wf]

Personally, i think religion was made when people realized the strong can basically do whatever the hell they want with the weak, so they needed a stronger force, even if imaginary, to maintain order Remember the phrase "if fear of divine punishment is the only thing keeping you moral, than you're just a psychopath on a leash" i always get confused at this phrase, because, well, isnt it better to keep a psychopath on a leash? Once empathy doesnt work everything just fall flat on its face. Subjective morality implies there are no objective reason i ought to do anything Im an atheist, but i think religion, as a concept, is an incredibly useful tool for social cohesion

[@Graeme_Lastname]

Until they burn you in a pyre?

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

With humans morality 😇 is much more a cheerleader than a restraint. The more morals 😇 humans have the crueller, more fanatical, and more unhinged they tend to be.

[@Frogfish999]

Religion has historically been primarily used by the powerful to exert control over the weak so I don’t think it’s very successful at what you say it is supposed to do.

[@DunkeysLongLostSon]

By all accounts, no one created religion, it just happens once a community gets large enough. It seems farfetched to think that when it first started cropping up, it was used in that cynical of a way. Maybe organized religion, but not religion as a whole

[@DCminh-pe9wf]

@@DunkeysLongLostSon thats true, maybe im just reaching

[@macmac1022]

>>Is Religion Just a Cope for Suffering?"" I think its even worse then just a cope. When they say evil happens for the greater good, they are saying evil is good basically. And while they try and say morals are objective and from god, my questions show that is false as well as them saying the morals laws from the OT have changed. How do objective morals change when they are absolute? If slavery was at any time objectively acceptable, then that cant change if morals are objective. I have some questions that point out the problem of objective morals from god and the greater good being an excuse they do not even accept. People of all kinds please state if your christian or muslim, atheists, agnostics or any combination of those and then if willing participate in the test. As well, looking for 5 good moral theist questions for atheists/agnostics. #1 You see a child drowning in a shallow pool and notice a person just watching that is able to save the child with no risk to themselves but is not, is that persons non action moral? #2 If you go to save the child, the man tells you to stop as he was told it was for the greater good, but he does not know what that is, do you continue to save the child? #3 Is it an act of justice to punish innocent people for the crimes of others? #4 If you were able to stop it and knew a person was about to grape a child would you stop it? #5 Would you consider a parent who put their kids in a room with a poison fruit and told the kids not to eat it but then also put the best con artist in the room with the children knowing the con artist will get the kids to eat the fruit and the parent does nothing to stop it a good parent?

[@jamessaltlife]

The Bible is not literal my friend. Most of the stories are symbolic and carry with them a deeper, layered meaning than pretty much any written document in history.

[@macmac1022]

@@jamessaltlife >>The Bible is not literal my friend. Most of the stories are symbolic and carry with them a deeper, layered meaning than pretty much any written document in history."" Tell all the christians that say the bible is literal that its not, and let me know how that goes. If you want I can link you up with LOTS of them. And why did you avoid my questions? Why do you think nearly 100% of atheists and agnostics can answer my simple moral questions while less then 18% of christians will answer them and less then 6% of muslims? So what ids the deeper layered meaning of kill all but the virgin girls, you can keep them for yourselves? How about you may buy slaves from the nations around you? How about you are not to be punished if you beat your slave and they are ok in a couple days?

[@servantmapper8893]

So as a Christian I ought to respond: I'm glad that we can be civilized about this. #1: The thing is that as we all have sinned we all deserve to die, we all deserve to drown. So God is not immoral if He does not save us. (Actually He gave us a way out by dyig in the cross). So you can swap out the innocent person for Hitler, then you can tell me if it is justified to stand by and let him drown. I'd say yes. Albeit there is still thequestion of "why doesn't God save us anyway as He loves us so much?", which again He technically did on the cross, but other than that I cannot answer this question of myself. #2: Tbh, idk. #3: No, but none of us are innocent, God could kill us all today and He would be justified in doing so. Our sin is that bad. #4: idk, it is in a gray area. Nothing is gray to God, so He definetely knows, but I don't. I would probably still save him but that's just my opinion. #5: This is on the question of free will. Without free will there would be no sin, but also we would basically be robots. As far as I know it is more glorifying to God if we ourselves on free will choose to follow Him, than if we do it because we're programmed to. Also, since the only sin Adam and Eve could do at the time was to eat the fruit, and they did know that was wrong of them to do. I'm preatty sure that had they resisted the serpent's initial temptation it would be much easier to resist him moving forward. Because you've already prevailed before. So it is not unimaginable that they could have stood their ground. The reason why God allowed the serpent to tempt, was to test their loyalty to God. The same way Jesus would be tempted by the devil much later, and stand His ground. You mentioned good moral theist questions for atheists/agnostics too, and I do have the objective truth argument. If there is any objective truth and objective good and objective evil, that proves the existance of God. If not God, then who decides objective truth? It can't be us humans, because we all don't agree on what is true and what is not, what is good and what is bad. Neither can truth and morality be derived from the universe, as one cannot derive an "outh" from an "is". Just because the universe is a sertain way doesn't mean that murder is bad for example. Now before I dive deeper into this, I should probably watch the video as it seemed preatty sus. Nihilism is the logical conclusion of Atheism and not of Christianity.

[@ianbanks2844]

​@jamessaltlife Really ? In that case why have the religions concerned treated it literally as " gospel " ? And hence all the lies , torture , imprisonment , totalitarianism, forced conversation and insistence that it is literal ? No the problem is that religous people just can't stop lying and imposing their own views on other people . Physician heal thyself .

[@markjohnston8989]

I know this has been bandied about quite a lot so could you give me some examples Thanks in advance@@jamessaltlife

[@superduper7874]

I'd go one step further. Christianity isn't just a cope for nihilism, it, like Nietzsche believed, it causes it as well.

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

Ironic, seeing Nietzsche forward a fantastical solution of Ubermensch which can be considered just another form of coping with Nihilism, just vitalistic and life-affirming, making the mundane sacred and immanent itself of equal value to transcendent.

[@macmac1022]

Agreed.

[@pikapi6993]

then why is study after study showing that Christians are happier than Atheists? Why do Christians overall have a better mental health, physical health, social life, marital life etc.? Why is there less suicide among Christians than among Atheists? The evidence shows that Atheism is the cause for nihilism. Emile Durkheim knew this in the 19. century after researching suicide based on religious beliefs

[@Seratan144]

I choose to believe. I confessed my sins, asked Jesus to forgive me, and never looked back. Whatever doubts that may infect my mind from time to time I still pray, meditate, contemplate and believe. When People are asked, “Do you believe in God? It is either: yes, no or not sure. If one is not sure, that means they don’t believe. Since the atheist answers the question with no, that means he believes there is no God. The atheist says there is evidence that suggests the universe may be cosmic accident. They say a singularity erupted and created all of this. A singularity is something that exists outside of time and space. Nobody has ever seen this singularity. No one could tell you its properties. Yet they still believe it exists. That is faith. The atheists say they have evidence. Evidence means you are interpreting. How can any of us assure ourselves that we have no confirmation bias? We make mistakes. We are human. Evidence can be manufactured and dishonest. It can be misinterpreted. For these reasons lawyers, and not scientists run, the world. So, the atheist has double faith: Faith that there is no God and faith that the evidence is honest and well understood. I do not see myself as a proselyte. I am a humble wretch. I am not smarter or better than anybody. I committed to God. I have seen Him work in my life and the lives of others. It is not unreasonable to believe in God. Exercising my faith has brought me everything in my life that I value. My life isn’t perfect but I always feel the love of God in my heart. There is nothing better than feeling the love of God in one’s heart, in my experience. I am always confident and in a constant state of joy.

[@nikokapanen82]

Of course, a guy with a name "super-duper" believes that selflessness and love and humility and generosity etc. that Jesus and the apostles so deeply taught and called us to follow, is actually the cause of nihilism. Prideful super-dupers like Nietzsche always see Godly ways evil and the cause of evil.

[@Annibals]

I appreciate Alex not overlooking but voicing out the non humans when mentioning most extreme suffering

[@_wade_morgan]

That’s my knee on the right hand side of the screen haha! Awesome as always Alex and Trent

[@mattreigada3745]

I would take it a step further than Alex’s assertion that suffering is a requisite function of a selective process where it isn’t a requisite of intelligent creation. Not only is suffering a requisite function of a selective process, but it is necessarily emergent of a selective process. A being created by a creator could be created such that it possesses no capacity or ability to suffer. Such a being could be skewered through the chest with a hot iron and have no response or even simply laugh it off because it tickled. There is no necessary entailment that an intelligent creator endow you with the ability to suffer. However all humans within a selective process stand on the shoulders of millions of generations of individuals selected favorably. The lineage of developed instincts are inherited by the survivors, and those who have lost the instinct for pain and suffering will have long since died off. Pain and suffering aren’t just a necessary mechanical element of the process, but the very existence of pain and suffering as concepts, instincts, and experiences are necessarily emergent of the process. Else we could have been unfeeling golems driven by the unfailingly positive and loving whim of our designer.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

That is true as long as you presuppose that this supposed potential designer could not have designed reality in such a way as to have a process of species coming about which is entirely _different_ from a forcible selection process. Usually, the mainline religions assume their god-creature to be some measure of super-powerful. To claim that such a creature is restricted by our logic, by our understanding of existence, would be a clear anthropomorphization. Should we accept the potential of a god-creature existing, then the very first assumption we should make beyond that is that it is unimaginable to us; and not in the sense the Christians often like to say "god works in mysterious ways" every time one brings up the ridiculous and cruel actions of their god as written in the bible. But in the very way that makes us say "we cannot make _any_ inferences of how reality could be different". In other words, a creator god, if we assumed one existed, could likely create a universe an entirely different way, where suffering is _not_ needed to have us both exist and even thrive.

[@mattreigada3745]

@@lVideoWatcherl your opening prose are difficult to decipher, however if I'm understanding correctly I'm fairly certain the opposite is true. What I stated presupposes that a creator could have designed a reality wherein an alternative to forcible selection is possible. Certainly we could argue that perhaps such a deity could not design a more perfect mechanism, however as you noted that would contradict the potency assumed by most mainstream religions.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@@mattreigada3745 Oh, excuse me, in that case I seem to have misunderstood your comment. I thought you had argued that life couldn't potentially have arisen functionally without a selective process. My bad.

[@mattreigada3745]

@@lVideoWatcherl I mean, if we allege an omnipotent creator entity then the emergence of sophisticated life without a selective possible is necessarily possible. In a purely naturalistic universe I don't foresee an alternative to a selective process, but that's far from an assertion that one is absolutely impossible.

[@enlightenedanalysis1071]

I used to have the same view as Alex a few years ago. But I’ve changed my mind. Suffering is NECESSARY in this world in order to achieve greatness. I agree with Nietzsche that everything beautiful, tragic, meaningful and profound is BECAUSE of suffering and the cruelty that is linked to it. Without suffering or adversity there would be NO heroes, no sacrifice and no champions - because you would have NOTHING to fight for. How can you or anybody become a hero or somebody worthy of respect that we can honour, WITHOUT the presence of suffering or evil? Think of the most beautiful works of music, art or literature you have ever experienced. Nearly all of them are made possible and meaningful because of pain, hurt, loss - in other words, great suffering. Some of the greatest films ever made are about the personal struggle of someone against huge adversity, loss and pain. As for evolution, yes it is a cruel and messy process - but that cruelty also produced some of the most amazing creatures on the planet: lions, tigers, sharks, eagles, just to name a few. You cannot just look at the world and life through one lens or perspective. We should be able to APPRECIATE the power of our suffering and AFFIRM it as something good and necessary for growth, for greatness and beauty. Ask anyone over 50 what they cherish most about their life and I bet it has something to do with how they they were able to overcome their hurts, pains and suffering - it made them who they are. Some of the greatest scientists achieved their discoveries through personal risk to their health and great sacrifice. If your vision of a perfect world is Disney land where everybody is “happy”, good for you. Stay there if you wish. That is a nightmare for me. And finally, let me say that I am NOT a theist or believer of any religion. But the “problem of evil” in philosophy is too simplistic and naive - because it IGNORES so much. It’s the kind of argument that convinces the youth or less experienced. But those of you who can look back on your life and have it ALL repeated over and over again just as it was with all the pain, emptiness and occasional happiness (like the eternal return of Nietzsche), you may feel a sense of joy and wonder. Because what is the alternative to this beautiful and cruel world? Nothingness.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I appreciate your honesty. And your perspective regarding suffering is different. It makes sense and yet, within my heart, I still struggle with understanding the meaning of life and the meaning of suffering. By the way, I do believe in a Creator God. Do you mind if I ask, what do you mean by "greatness"? You said " Suffering is necessary in this world in order to achieve greatness ". Respectfully...

[@wet-read]

You sound like you haven't heard Alex's debate with Inspiring Philosophy a few years ago ("Would God Allow Evil?"), in which what you mention was addressed. Which is fine, there is a ton of content on channels like this one! Check it out tho.

[@enlightenedanalysis1071]

@@wet-readok thank you. :)

[@enlightenedanalysis1071]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 Thank you for your kind and thoughtful feedback. I appreciate it. You ask a good question. To be honest, I am not sure "greatness" can be defined or put into words. It is something to be experienced or felt. It is connected with something or someone that leaves you with a feeling of awe, respect and wonder. Greatness is perhaps the feeling I get every time I watch the ending of the 1976 film "Jesus of Nazareth". The loneliness, abandonment, rejection, pain of a man on the cross - the beauty and meaning of the Passion story cannot be understood or felt without the cruelty and suffering that is linked to it. Greatness is also the feeling we might get when listening to Mahler's Adagietto (5th symphony) or Barber's Adagio for Strings - those pieces of music cannot be understood by someone who has never experienced sadness and great suffering. Sadly many people forget the importance of this side of suffering, that it INSPIRES beauty (and potentially greatness). Perhaps the best thing I can do is to guide you towards two amazing books that deal with the subject of suffering in a unique way. The first is Dostoevsky's book "Notes from the Underground" (it's a relatively short book). The second is called "Beyond Good and Evil" by Friedrich Nietzsche. It's an easy book to read but it's also a difficult book because it challenges some of our basic or "safe" beliefs. I also suggest the videos made by the youtube channel "Pursuit of Wonder" - they may be just what you're looking for (especially the videos on Dostoevsky and Kierkegaard). Thank you.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

​@@enlightenedanalysis1071 Thanks so much for your time and effort to explain things and I also appreciate your suggestions. I need to research more in this different aspect of suffering and pain. I like the correlation you made between Jesus crucifixion and His suffering. Peace to you from Florida....

[@denizen7even]

Everything in life is a cope. The lies we say, the stories we tell ourselves. All one huge coping mechanism for the shitty existence that is being a human

[@theboombody]

Well, for it being so bad, thank goodness we live in an era when we get every classic wrestling pay per view for free on a streaming service that comes with the internet. I never would have dreamed of that as a teenager.

[@denizen7even]

@@theboombody 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂 Fair enough

[@joeturner9219]

I'm sorry you feel that way. That's a sad life to live. Glad I don't live that way and I have a relationship with God to give me peace, happiness and joy. The best thing is, I know it's not a lie ❤️

[@denizen7even]

@joeturner9219 Lol that peace is false. There is no afterlife. We only get one life to live, and that's here. On earth. There is no heaven or hell. You can make your life on earth a heaven or you can make it hell. That's it. Unlike you, I choose to not lie to myself to make me feel good.

[@RainbowSixIntel]

Whats the point then? If youre going to, on purpose, make yourself feel bad, then don't cry about it being a shitty existence, right? Just live as you wish. If believing in god helps, and believing in an afterlife helps, then even if the afterlife isn't real (and it just goes blank) who lived a more fulfilling life? If the afterlife is real, then you'll be proved incorrect, and if it isn't, you won't be there to prove me wrong.@@denizen7even

[@micahhook3576]

Thanks, Alex.

[@glennpeterson1357]

Nailed it!

[@cichlisuite2]

I'm curious to see the whole discussion here. Trent Horn's slow foot tapping that starts up as Alex really begins to dig into the depth of suffering (not sure how many uses of the word suffering it is that triggers it, but there were a fair few?) suggests to me a certain level of impatience with the argument or the emphasis that Alex makes there? I have a feeling he didn't really want to accept that you could characterise human (and non-human) experience as dominated by suffering.

[@mike990]

I want to ask Alex if our lives are dominated by suffering and have no meaning outside of suffering, then what's the point of being alive? And if there is none, then...well you can see where this logic goes. I don't think our lives are defined by suffering.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

​@@mike990To be truthfully honest, my own life has been pretty much dominated by the side-effects of cancer treatments for about 10 years. I struggle to understand why? But then I realize that there are many people who suffer, or did suffer, much more than I do. So the questioning about suffering is valid ( in my perception). I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you. Peace of God to you.

[@cichlisuite2]

@@mike990 One response to your question is that while suffering might be dominant in the sense that it is everywhere and a seemingly essential component of life on earth, that doesn't necessarily mean it "defines" our lives. We can construct or find our own meaning in our lives even while we experience suffering or see it around us. How anyone does that will inevitably be a very personal and individual thing. Some people do seem to rely on religion for this but it's not the only option. Alex is saying that the suffering was always there and it looks to him like religion was designed, at least in part, to avoid the problem that you posit when you say "well you can see where this logic goes" or to justify battling or enduring the suffering. That importantly though does not mean without religion we have no reason to live.

[@hannahs4779]

⁠@@mike990We create our own meaning for life. Religion is like a safety blanket that people use to whether the storms, it’s a very effective coping mechanism, but in no way is it objectively true. It’s natural to search for a reason in response to suffering because the truth that there is no meaning is too confronting for a lot of people.

[@mike990]

You can say "We create our own meaning" all day long but isn't that even more of a coping mechanism than religion? Your "meaning" would largely be irrelevant to me as whatever "meaning" I create would be irrelevant to you. At least religious folks can appeal to a meaning that is greater than themselves (if they're right) that has lasting and transcendent value. We don't have to think it's true, but it sure seems like its case for meaning is more compelling than a secular "make your own meaning" one. @@hannahs4779

[@rortys.kierkegaard9980]

Absurdism is best for dealing with nihilism…

[@davidnorris166]

Or Buddhism

[@die_buecher7090]

Or cats

[@flinngordon9994]

@@die_buecher7090 I second the cats proposal

[@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084]

After watching this, i then watched it again from a body language stance and it was interesting, i was observing Trent, his feet particularly as the further away a body part is from the head, the more difficult it is to consciously control generally speaking, his feet were doing some digital flecxtion, likely in response to Alex's comments. i couldn't say what that might mean tho because I'd first need to get a baseline reading.

[@MilesfromNowhere21]

Hello, Yes, Thanks!

[@carlossardina3161]

I think the argument can be flipped around just as easily. Nihilism is just a way to cope your failure to take responsibility. I think the appeal to evidence in science is a good appeal, though I don’t think the evidence is sways heavily one way or the other.

[@briansmith3791]

One universe with the inherent Physical Constants means the universe was fine-tuned from the very beginning. For me, that points to a creator.

[@carlossardina3161]

@@briansmith3791 I think there is a good argument to be made there, although, I find the counter arguments to be strong too, but at the same time, I don't think I understand the physics well of enough to say either way. I find Pascal and Kierkegaard's arguments about meaning and reason to be sufficient for me. On the reason part, I think the fact that there is a logic to the universe points to the need for a basis for this, and I see the fine-tuning argument as a kind of extension of this argument.

[@briansmith3791]

@@carlossardina3161 Good points on philosophy, although i find the counter arguments to the universal fine-tuning arguments to be weak. (See Dawkins 'Poetry of Reality' Q&A 'Aliens, God...' 32m-34mins). Dawkins accepts physicists' view that the Fundamental Constants are fine-tuned then offers two "solutions". One, that, when and if, we get a Theory of Everything, that will explain away the fine-tuning. That's promissory materialism, 'science doesn't support my view at present, but someday it will'. What if the ToE reveals evidence for a creator behind it all? Two, a multiverse. The atheist physicist, Sabine Hossenfelder says that "any idea of a multiverse is pseudo-science. We have no observable evidence for such a thing and are never likely to have".

[@briansmith3791]

@@carlossardina3161 May The Force be with you.

[@davidgalvez8741]

Alex is quite right here. Once you realise religion is exactly that, a coping mechanism, then you realise how truly scary and concerning it is that you find yourself in this reality without any reason why. If that doesn't put a knot in your stomach you haven't grasped what I'm saying. This reality is full of deep intense suffering, and we are all intimately intertwined in it. The most common day to day on this planet is day 1. This is much closer to hell than a heaven. It's the worst news one can face. It's such bad news its led hundreds of cultures over thousands of years to praise and worship fairy tales and nonsense. Because to truly acknowledge the truth is so damaging to oneself all that can arise is deep despair and depression. This happened to countless philosophers over the centuries. It is only the fact religion is so forced upon children that this indoctrination will often serve a person through their whole life, without realising the situation they truly find themselves in.

[@samuelmerkel2888]

You can believe religion is just that, but there's no way to confirm it. By the same notion, the denial of religion to all be written off, to choose to believe there's no greater purpose or being, is also a potential coping mechanism. A coping mechanism to shield oneself from the potential that the world is greater than their individual experience, and that there may be a right and wrong way to be that we ourselves don't wish to accept. As such, pushing out all such notions and deciding there is no real meaning can seem to be more appealing. My goal here isn't to insult or tell you what you are or anything like that. Merely to point out that without knowing the truth, both are effectively as likely as the other.

[@jasondean88888]

No. Not knowing the answer to a question does not default to a 50/50 chance that 2 random answers are correct. That's not how reality works. If you don't know where babies come from, does that mean that a bird delivery is equally as likely as some complex process that requires significant education to have a deep understanding of? One is a simply and easy to grasp solution, so it's probably more likely to be correct, right? I've seen birds....I've never seen a human egg. There is a foundational flaw in your assertion.

[@samuelmerkel2888]

@@jasondean88888 Your logic is correct, but you've inserted it into the wrong situation. Your analogy of babies being born is right. We have evidence that points in ways that allow us to make educated guesses, which raises the probability of one hypothesis being correct. In the actual situation at hand, we have no such evidence for any direction. There's no population to take samples of. There's no statistics. It's entirely subjective reasoning which changes from one mind to the next. So yes, they're equally likely.

[@davidgalvez8741]

@@samuelmerkel2888 there is no way to confirm that Dracula lives in my basement and every time I go down there he hides so I don't see him, doesn't make it at all rational to believe such a thing. And no, they are not equally as likely as each other, although I wish they were.

[@samuelmerkel2888]

@@davidgalvez8741 The difference, like I clarified a bit ago, is that you've been in your basement. You can search your basement for clues of Dracula, given that he's a physical being. While you could never technically confirm Dracula does not live there, you can definitely raise the odds of the possibility that he is not with a good confidence level. This same logic does not apply to the original question. That's what I've been trying to say. What you're saying IS good logic, but not for this scenario. It's being applied incorrectly.

[@youtubularTV]

Whatever answer you seek, that is what you shall find

[@Blu3wonder]

The behaviour panel should do a video on this. ❤

[@JD-ro7xe]

An apologist asked me once 'Can you find joy in suffering? ' I said 'Well, I think so. I'm having this talk with you, am I not? '

[@samuelcharles7642]

@@anglotarjamahNo, everybody clapped

[@Ara-gp4yj]

bros a philosopher

[@hypergraphic]

Great clip. To some degree I think all technology could also be viewed as a cope depending on your attitude towards it. How many of us can't go a day without our phones? It's not like life was so terrible for many us growing up without them. In the same way I think depending on your perspective, religion and spirituality and also culture can be viewed as a technology, or just a cope.

[@yomamasohot6411]

Sure, you can apply this philosophy to anything in life but there is a difference. Technology is real/tangible. It's based on evidence. It can be reproduced. It's not made up like god.

[@Danobot11]

@@yomamasohot6411Gods may be made up, but culture is real because we make it up. Culture too, is reproducible in a loose sense. Not quite as controllable as material technology, but there certainly is a clear difference between primitive and developed cultures.

[@luislozano6073]

I think that the important think to ask is: Does it work? Is religion an effective way to cope witth suffering? Does atheism provide a better solution for the suffering we ara entailed to?

[@spectrepar2458]

We'd have to do a cost benefit analysis. I don't interupt when my Patient wants to pray with their minister but i also understand that their religion does have costs to themselves and people around them. Different versions of religion have varying positive and negative impacts. One where they think god just wants them to care about the well-being of others, where everyone eventually goes to heaven, that has no moral problems with things that aren't harmful and commands people to make decisions that are beneficial in this life is probably not that bad. One that results in children traumatized by fears of hell, that demands we be brutal beyond benefit to wrong doers, that puts a lot of focus on issues that dont really harm people (safe sex, homosexuality, safe drug use ect), commands people make harmful medical decisions (refuse blood), that holds us in such a high regard above non humans that we dont have to care about animal abuse or requires us twist science is probably not worth the price. Of course i don't think we can just sit here and calculate the costs then decide to believe the ideal falshood however we can be more or less hostile to different beliefs based on how harmful they are.

[@joshh1997]

Job did say, "Is my complaint directed to a human being? Why should I not be impatient?" So there are times in the Bible when someone genuinely seeking God can be confused and appalled about why God has not answered their moral and intellectual objections. Christians should give this position more credit and not always prejudge.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I like your comments. Thanks for sharing.

[@joshh1997]

Thanks bro! :)

[@asherphoenix5584]

I still think Buddhism best accounts for the problem of suffering

[@serendipity8141]

No, it doesn't. It posits unsubstantiated metaphysics of reincarnation system, karma and nirvana which is purportedly the end of suffering.

[@Anxh007]

It just says suffering can end but also says it is like a lottery if it ended what's worse it tries to undermine suffering by blaming the suffered that he did evil actions in past life

[@Vangluss]

@@serendipity8141i think he’s commenting more on the fact that Buddhism has a better answer to the problem of evil/suffering in that it has the big theme of attachment to finite things causes infinite suffering. Karma/reincarnation is mostly ghost and goblin shit, but Buddhism is pretty spot on that the constant want of things can easily cause all sorts of negative emotions

[@faust8218]

​​@@Vangluss Yeah, but you can find similar nuggets of practical wisdom in Christianity as well.

[@pikapi6993]

have you guys researched what hell in Buddhism looks like?

[@bmar916]

Us humans always want a beautiful reason for everything. Death, loneliness, mass casualties, etc. We want a fairytale life. Unfortunately, the world doesn't have a meaning, we are simply more intelligent apes running around with inflated emotions that gets in the way of everything.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I think you are correct about " inflated emotions" . However I do think there is an absolute meaning to life ( besides personal meaning in an individual's life ). Respectfully..

[@Jarige2]

I'd argue it's not just painful, it's a potential death sentence for anyone who's depressed. For someone who's without hope, atheism offers no hope.

[@briansmith3791]

@@Jarige2 Agreed. I wonder at the underlying motives of the leading voices in atheism. Dawkins, Krauss, Dennett and others have said publicly that they don't WANT there to be a God of any description. They have it good, successful, clever, famous, wealthy, why do they need a God, a bigger picture? I pity their followers, led by the nose into an ultimately meaningless existence.

[@secretagent4610]

​@@briansmith3791You create your own meaning. Or you could just try the best you can to enjoy life regardless if there's a meaning or not. Maybe that's the meaning.

[@briansmith3791]

@@secretagent4610 Unfortunately, our "own meaning" is often utterly selfish and destructive. See the world today. If there could be a deeper, less selfish, meaning, would that not help our species? I'm saying a fine-tuned universe points to a purpose in Life, beyond our selfish motives.

[@existential_o]

Perhaps, an argument from desire is equally applicable

[@michael_leclezio]

well done sir, I'm up to 4mins 17 seconds, very good analysis of nihilsm in the bible. and escapism in god. or in fear. Fear makes us believe all sorts of things doesn't it? :) ok, viewing the rest now. big fan by the way, for a good many years! Cheers.

[@nealio6458]

As a Christian, I would say my religion is not a method of escaping or ignoring suffering, but overcoming it.

[@chandionadeem]

That was exactly his argument, man. That is, religion is a way to cope with the untold suffering of life and the indifference of the universe. Religion is the well-thought and well-organized system of values and norms (derived from myths and lies) that allows us to cope with such a harsh reality. So, all in all, it had its merits; but it also messed up big time. And in the current times, it is far more beneficial for all humanity to embrace the truth of our existence and work towards pragmatic solutions, and values that are actually good, and not just stick to the system that we think God has given us (translation: that a bunch of classic and medieval scholars have given us)

[@existential_o]

@@chandionadeem You’re missing Nealio’s point. Obviously, religion serves some sort of response to existential dread. That’s not the question. The question is, does religion precede existential dread, or does existential dread precede religion? If it’s the first, then religion is a genuine part of reality, and the argument from desire is successful. If it’s the latter, then religion is nothing more than a cope to existential dread.

[@chandionadeem]

@@existential_o Through arguments from evolutionary biology, psychology and anthropology, one can certainly say that existential dread precedes religion, let alone the supporting arguments of philosophers such as Nietzsche, Heidegger and Sartre. What science says, if put in simplistic words, is that we developed religious sentiments by using optimistic imagination by long toiling days in the wild (a friend in the sky). And there are also arguments from psychoanalysis, besides the Terror Management Theory, partly inspired by the book 'Denial of Death'.

[@existential_o]

@@chandionadeem Vaguely appealing to academic fields, and then claiming they all demonstrate existential dread precedes religion (clearly meant within its metaphysical form), isn’t advancing the conversation. I could perform the exact inverse of your claim, through your methodology, and arise to the opposite conclusion. “One can certainly say that religion precedes existential dread, let alone the supporting metaphysical arguments from St. Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, Alexander Pruss, etc.” To claim evolutionary biology demonstrates existential dread precedes the truth of religion (in its metaphysical form), is like claiming evolutionary biology demonstrates the falsehood of moral realism. Clearly, evolutionary biology is completely irrelevant to the metaphysical question of God and morality. Furthermore, to claim it even has the possibility of disproving religion or morality is to commit the genetic fallacy (base the truth of an idea off its origin). Personally, the argument from desire seems to dwarf any “death insurance” argument. Edit: You’re not well read in Sartrean philosophy if you’re claiming his argument against God is a problem for Christianity. Even Sartre himself wasn’t satisfied with it.

[@theboombody]

@@chandionadeem Values that are actually good. I guess the Bible's condemnation of adultery doesn't count as good for some reason.

[@Sam-gq1pn]

People can say what they like about whether God exists or not, but there has to be some kind of grand designer that matched Alex' chair to his shoes; the black suit and white shirt with brown shoes? A horrible choice, those colours are not an acceptable combination. But the chair??? Which perfectly matches the brown of the shoes??? I'm not sure that's a mere coincidence - we need to get Swinburne on this ASAP.

[@rinzhler6922]

Designer of his clothes. And his mind that chose to wear the matching clothes. Stop commenting the same Teleological argument(and it's derivatives) again and again.

[@maxonmendel5757]

mad props to TH for participating here. its hard, and the post Holocaust world, post 20th century world challenges everything. but glad smart catholics like TH are willing and mostly able to deal with post-modern questions. if catholicism fails to answer those questions sufficiently, then it truly fails to remain catholic. i desperately with G K Chesterton were alive

[@belladonna70]

excellent

[@Choedron]

It certainly depends on what religion you are talking about. Buddhism is way more than just coping with suffering. It is one of the most profound philosophies and can be extremely difficult to understand without many years of actual meditation practice.

[@youtuber7186]

The vast majority of buddhists don't actually meaningfully practice it. The same goes for hinduism, daoism, or following the teachings of Jesus, which all require intense meditative practice and genuine intention. I do agree with you that the eastern mythologies in particular have a lot of practices that are widely known to its adherents, but again, bar actual monks almost nobody actually take the genius practices to heart.

[@davidnorris166]

​@@Bendertherobot69420Buddhism presents no supernatural claims.

[@samuelcharles7642]

@@davidnorris166False. The concept of rebirth? Mara? Hungry ghost? Devas? Hell realms?

[@die_buecher7090]

I firmly believe that hinduism( buddhism is only a part of hinduism that became its own thing over time) as a whole with all its believes is the most complex and therefore fascinating religion that still exists. However, I would still not believe anything of it or take it more seriously than the norse sagas or the elderscrolls lore.

[@adamgrosjean369]

Is water just a cope for thirst?

[@Jeddacoder]

Water is real 😜

[@thenormalman8278]

Bro what are ya talking about

[@adamgrosjean369]

@@Jeddacoder Ah the materialists argument… that didn’t take long. Is love real, is wonder real,is any quale real? It’s different for everyone, it can’t be measured but it is definitely real for me. For the billions of religious followers, religion is most definitely real. Who are we to say?? Not me…

[@Lazronaut]

​@adamgrosjean369 the feelings religion give you can be real, but that says nothing about the claims said religion makes. I can get comfort from believing I will reincarnate in another life, and that comfort I feel is real; but this is not evidence that reincarnation itself is real.

[@adamgrosjean369]

@@LazronautI agree but it doesn’t make it false . It works both ways. I continue to have an open mind and will follow “ the truth “. It is a life long quest that will never be answered but it is interesting!!

[@kurtaikido2889]

Life’s what you make it, can’t escape it

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

But can we "escape" death ? Just curious what you think. Respectfully...

[@afterglow5285]

The sound quality is atrocious, is there any way to fix it?.

[@gonozal8_962]

opium, in marxes time, was used as a painkiller. important context for his quote

[@MrSeedi76]

Also, it wasn't even Marx who said that first but Voltaire.

[@ItsMyQuantMyQuantitative]

Religions just sound too good to be true for me. Just follow some rules for 80 years and then live in literal paradise after death?! That would be the best deal ever, a ripoff almost. Eh, if something sounds too good to be true, then it probably isn’t true.

[@theboombody]

Well, we can instantaneously hear the voice of someone hundreds of miles away these days and carry on a conversation with them. Back a long time ago that was too good to be true.

[@vorpal22]

I think it's important to differentiate between pain and suffering: pain is an actual physical response, whereas suffering is a state of mind. For example, I have an autoimmune disorder that can be extremely painful, but I am able to detach from that pain, allow it to happen, and say that at no point was I suffering. Indeed, pain can also be associated with pleasure for a surprising number of people. (Note that I am an atheist and I think that the idea that there is a creator god, especially one that is described in Christianity, is absolutely ludicrous for so many reasons that we don't even need to get to "the problem of evil" or "the notion of suffering" to dismiss Christianity out of hand as nonsense.)

[@georgesdanton7204]

A bit unfairly cut short, I really wanted to hear the response of the plant

[@alskdjfhgqzwez6723]

What is your biblical justification for a good God? Where does this all loving idea come from?????????????????????????????

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

Truth ✅. Agape is just authority respect, such as obeying your military commander.

[@pikapi6993]

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:33-35 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. John 15: 8 -10 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15: 11 - 12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John 13:12-17

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

Have you ever heard of *LYING* and *MANIPULATION?!*@@pikapi6993

[@alskdjfhgqzwez6723]

@@pikapi6993 sorry, but Jesus/the guy who the Bible says Jesus is has shown himself to be untrustworthy, and none of these verses point to an all loving God, plus actions speak louder than words, i can bullshit all day about love, then go home, breed mice and poke their skin with needles all day then burn them alive and then boast about that. I need a verse where God himself says "I love all people and by that I mean I want everyone to live happily ever after. Free will is demonstrably impossible, and if you love someone, you dont create them with pain receptors and a brain capable of immense suffering.

[@pikapi6993]

@@alskdjfhgqzwez6723 excuse me, your objection doesn't make any sense. Can you address each verse seperately? And can you show sources for your claims? You seem very bitter and angry honestly. Who hurt you? Life would be boring without suffering. Just think of your favorite TV show. Do you prefer the ones where people suffer and overcome challenges, or the ones where people are happy 24/7? One of my favorite series is Avatar the legened of Aang. So much hardship, but full of love.

[@lmaocetung]

I think if you continue on this path, you'll be remembered as one of the greatest philosophers of our time

[@euloge996]

No he is not, he is not the first to bring up these ideas

[@philipdillon83]

@@euloge996 The mark of a great philosopher is not neccessarily just originality. And news flash, almost nobody ever is original, were all working off of the people who came before, including the greatest philosophers ever.

[@lmaocetung]

@@euloge996 his attitude is what we need, it doesn't matter he didn't come up with the ideas he holds. When you think of almost any idea, somebody else probably thought of it already (Sorry for my English I'm not a native speaker)

[@mrbungle2627]

I don’t think people realize that Matt Dillahunty, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens are all very much anti-philosophy in a academic and polished sense. Alex is a little more philosophical than those bunch, however, he’s really not an impactful atheist philosopher. Graham Oppy is an actual atheist philosopher that publishes work. It’s peer-reviewed and is kept to a certain level of scrutiny. Painfully, KZbin atheists just appeal to dumb people that can’t read philosophy and enjoy EXTREMELY watered down and regurgitated arguments from actual philosophers.

[@bdnnijs192]

​@@philipdillon83 If you don't mind me asking. What is the mark of a great philosopher if not coming up with new ideas?

[@LittleMAC78]

I have always noticed a correlation between communities/cultures that have been historically subjugated in some way and their leaning towards religious belief. The very poorest in society seem to be religious. Of course, there are those who are religious and rich but they are in that position on the backs of the poor who have been sold the line 'blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth' which is essentially a call for pacification rather than rebellion against the ones doing the subjugation. The promise of a reward in the hereafter (inherit the Earth) is the same logic as a parent wanting their child to stop crying/being disruptive in some way through boredom because the parent has things to take care of - they may be out shopping, for example - and so they say to the child "If you're good now, you might get a treat later". The parent has their own agenda (the shopping in this example) that they need to address and they need to pacify the child to achieve that goal. The difference with the promise of a 'treat' in the hereafter is that it cannot be guaranteed but the pacification is still successful as the types of people who accept that offer often lack the ability or desire to question. Religion is a cope for suffering but it is also a tool to prevent the believer from taking control of their own life in the here and now, allowing the people who sold the religion to them to continue subjugating them on some level.

[@theboombody]

I've never been rich, but I pretty much achieved every goal I ever wanted. How is that not taking control over my own life? So what if I have to work 40 hours a week?

[@LittleMAC78]

@@theboombody that's up to you as an individual and I glad you're happy. There are exceptions to every rule I am curious if you are religious yourself and if anybody else related to you shares that culture/belief (if you are or also if not religious)?

[@secretagent4610]

Bingo! My words exactly! Those are the two main reasons for religion! I agree with everything you said!

[@iqgustavo]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🌌 Kant believed two things filled him with wonder: the starry heavens and the moral law, which can point towards theism. 01:06 😢 Suffering is a defining aspect of human experience, and the problem of evil is not just a response to religion but a reflection of the suffering that came first. 02:17 📖 Many religious scriptures, like the Book of Job and Ecclesiastes, grapple with suffering, offering solace through the idea of fearing God and following His commandments. 04:11 🌍 Examining suffering in both human and non-human experiences, we can question what we'd expect to see if Christianity or atheism were true. 05:08 ⚖️ The existence of suffering in the world raises questions about the nature of God and the plausibility of atheism, with natural selection rooted in suffering.

[@alexlainagudo6228]

If Christ didn't come down, I wouldn't understand "human suffering" I wouldn't understand the condition of people, why they die.

[@revlarmilion9574]

That doesn't make any sense.

[@presupping4eva]

@@revlarmilion9574this makes sense

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

Are you saying that because Jesus Himself suffered, we should understand "human suffering" ? Or are you implying something else? Respectfully...

[@wet-read]

Like others here, I must ask what you mean. Because, on its face, your comment is nonsensical.

[@alexlainagudo6228]

Atheism is very lonely

[@xoNatalieShaw]

Imagine feeling so pointless in life that you spend your time trying to convince people there is no God.

[@billwalton4571]

is funny how hes using God to be relevant in his life

[@secretagent4610]

Maybe his point is to save people from believing in oppressive dogma so that they can think for themselves and not live in fear of an invisible sky tyrant that will send them to a lake of fire because they don't worship him despite there being no evidence? Sounds like a great point in life to have.

[@billwalton4571]

@@secretagent4610 only Christ can save. These people will fade away.

[@secretagent4610]

@@billwalton4571 You mean that guy who tells you to obey slave masters instead of telling people to end slavery? You do know it says that in the Bible, right?

[@billwalton4571]

@@secretagent4610 God always sets the bar at the hight of holiness. Following the verse you refer to it says: "Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven"

[@ZK-56]

Yes it is

[@johnbrion4565]

Alex if you were God and Love how would you have made the universe? What should God have done differently with creation assuming beings of free will are a part of it? For example how should he have revealed himself to us and in what form?

[@MaverickChristian]

Great picture for the thumbnail in my completely unbiased opinion.

[@Echogem222]

Alex, everything you've said in this video implies you'd believe in the religion I believe in, Flawlessism. I think it'd at least be worthwhile for you to learn about it, I'd be interested in learning what your opinion of it is.

[@milantarbuk1039]

I actually think he would prefer my religion. Bimboism, the worship of the divine whore and the holy cock. I wonder what he would think of the complex intricacies of it...

[@Fontoflife]

Great clip. What theists miss however is that wonder at the universe and fascination at the moral world within isn't a necessary lead in to G-d. All it is, is an indicator that we live in a very fascinating universe. God does not necessarily follow from this. Theism does not necessarily follow from this either. All that does follow is that the world of creation, the world of evolution, and the world of mind is amazing.

[@blumousey]

I completely disagree with Alex when he says wild animals live existences of general suffering. There is great suffering in nature but also great success and happiness and satisfaction in wild animals, just like humans. Of course religion is an attempt to reconcile consciousness and reality. That is quite literally what it is. To think therefore you are outside it, above it, or can think around it, or don't need it, or shouldn't believe it, is the real delusion, in my view!

[@briansmith3791]

I agree. I think humans suffer much more than wild animals. As far as we know, they don't have complex thought. They don't worry about tomorrow, they live in the present moment. If they settle down at night and their kin has survived, and they have eaten that day, then it's been a good day. They have fear only in the presence of physical danger, unlike humans. Our minds causes much of our suffering.

[@Benboy1980]

The answer is ‘yes’ and it’s a form of control as well

[@MegaVega2007]

what if religion could be yes and not a form of control? believing in all the optimistic and supernatural elements of christianity to get that religious "feeling" or "high" people talk about when they pray while not taking it seriously enough to actually let yourself be exploited by church leaders

[@butterflyvision3084]

I think an additional problem lies in the tension between freewill/utility/grandplan type explanation for suffering and the idea of individual prayers and personal divine attention. Surely if the explanation for all suffering is some grand plan that necessitates it, it would be very strange to have this parallel system of personal attention and favors where some people (but not others in the same situations) have their prayers answered or get other advantages in life based on their relationship to god. I feel like the proposed solutions to the problem of evil cannot reasonably be squared with a god that interferes in your individual life. It's one or the other, either it's all somehow good and fair in the grand scheme of things, OR god is ultimately unfair and plays favorites with people who worship the right way.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

That's exactly my argument also. If one assumes the god-creature to be omnibenevolent, then _there is no evil_ in the universe. Which, arguably, could be said to be true - after all suffering is just part of human existence, and we are the ones calling it "evil" when it just is. But I don't follow this argumentation, and usually believers also don't, because most want to keep their notion of there being tangible evil in this world.

[@greggaygayakutami1402]

@@lVideoWatcherl God or any single person can't decide morality, morality is based on human interaction. This is why it is never conceptualized when noone is being done right or done wrong. This is exactly why the grand plan bs is just God being an evil machiavellian who thinks the ends justify the means. Hell, the ends are also immoral making him worse.

[@Grag235]

It definitely has to be the first one result you mentioned, cause there are multiple examples of Atheists living a good life without following God, and very Religious people suffering while following God

[@martifingers]

A very sophisticated version of Alex's thesis is to be found, I believe, in the work of Ernest Becker and the subsequent advocates of Terror Management Theory.

[@jjeshop]

Always has been.

[@Fontoflife]

Alex's bit on suffering is neat. Suffering and what gives rise to it in the starkness of the world and the human struggle to come to terms with it is what defines us and gives us our nobility and dignity as human beings. Why gloss that over with theism? Yes we can pacify that with the shadowy promise of an eternal reward. But why do that when we can plumb the eternal depths of our consciousness for the meaning that suffering provides us in our existence? That's my view.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I appreciate your comments but I don't understand what you mean by " we can plumb the eternal depths of our consciousness for the meaning that suffering provides..." Can you clarify somewhat what you mean? Thanks.

[@Fontoflife]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 Yes l can. First of all we create our own meaning in life through our experiences. Secondly, by reflecting on our miseries and suffering, we can put our lives in perspective by recognizing this is how we contribute to the struggles of life. All life struggles, we do too. And so by understanding that, we can come to a better understanding of meaning in our life, through understanding it. That's how you come to terms with suffering. By realizing it's the way of the world. And by overcoming it through struggle, you find release. Suffering loses its sting when you recognize it for what it is - "life." As in, "that's life." At least, that's my own take on the matter. We cope with suffering through embracing it, by using it to mould us as through fire. We refine ourselves through it, and use it to improve ourselves for the future. That way we can better achieve things in life.

[@Eloign]

The doctrine of the fall also explains it from a Christian worldview. Jesus suffering and resurrection is historically based not just philosophically based.

[@3DCounterApologetics]

Alex, I would actually take that idea further. Looking at The Origin and History of Consciousness, we could say: The oldest religions we have found - I will include spiritualities for ease with this use of the term religion - seem to come about a bit after the last Ice Age. With this in mind, it is indeed a cold and cruel, ever changing, world. As children, our parents are the gods, in a sense, doing what we do not grasp, bringing us food when we hunger, water when we thirst, and siblings - or life. And when faced with such horrible experiences, as life can throw at us, we miss our parents. We miss the times we were simple creatures, with our parents who could appear to make all our issues fade away. And so Abraham looked to the sun and said, “Surely if the sun gives way to the moon, then who should be above them?” It is the idea of a higher power to control, and make better all the fears and woes. In a pseudo-Peterson fashion, we could go further and say this is what the renaming of Israel was meant to demonstrate in a geopolitical manner - that is “Israel is named such because they have wrested with G-d and man”. Israel has matured and no longer needs a mythical parent. Now this is also where the ideas of harsh religiosity comes in to play. But, the idea is there, one could make the argument religion developed as you said.

[@ejwest]

This seems to be a classic example of the genetic fallacy. Similar to the argument about how one can predict the religion a person subscribes to based on his nation, this argument states that faith is invalid because some people might have faith to help them deal with suffering. Notice how this actually does nothing to undermine the validity of faith. The truth of a statement has nothing to do with the origin of the concept. Alex then goes on to make an argument based on the problem of evil which he mainly frames emotionally but then also asks how much suffering we would expect if Christianity were true. Putting aside the fact that the emotional problem of evil has no place in philosophy and that the logical problem of evil has been dismissed and abandoned even by atheist philosophers, let’s address the probabilistic problem of evil. Alex is arguing that, on balance, it seems more likely that God (if benevolent and omnipotent) would have not allowed so much suffering and evil and that given the existence of so much suffering and evil we can say with relative confidence that he doesn’t exist. There are three simple rebuttals to this. 1. We are in no position to even assess the probability of God having sufficient moral reasons for allowing suffering and evil. 2. The Christian worldview actually makes the probability of the co-existence of suffering and God more likely. Remember, the problem of evil is working with the hypothetical that God exists so I am not making a circular argument here. ‘If God exists, then suffering is a problem’ says the atheist. ‘Well if God exists, then it actually makes sense’ I can reply. Why does it make sense? On the Christian worldview: happiness is not the goal of life, life is finite and the afterlife is eternal, we are in a state of rebellion against God, the knowledge of God is a great good, to name a few reasons. 3. Relative to the full scope of the evidence, God’s existence remains probable. It is our job to examine the totality of the evidence to assess the probability of God’s existence, not only those aspects which affirm our atheism or our theism (yes, this goes both ways). God remains the best explanation of why there is something rather than nothing (see Kalam and other cosmological arguments), why there is order in the universe (see teleological argument from fine-tuning of the universe), and why objective moral values and duties exist. Although at first glance the problem of evil might cause us to doubt faith, paradoxically, God is the only solution to the problem of evil. Life is a short, meaningless, brutish chaos without God. With God, life can be a noble struggle where our suffering means something.

[@Nero-Caesar]

I mean when people thought lightning and thunder were Thor striking his hammer on his anvil do we really need to say more as humans we try and explain the things around us with our current understanding

[@briansmith3791]

Our current understanding in physics, is that the universe is fine-tuned. See Dawkins, 'Poetry of Reality Q&A Aliens, God'...32m-34mins.

[@Nero-Caesar]

@briansmith3791 yeah that's gonna be a tall order to prove

[@briansmith3791]

@@Nero-Caesar There’s no proof of God or no God. All we have is the observable evidence of the fine-tuned Physical Constants. In the end, it comes down to our individual beliefs.

[@briansmith3791]

To clarify, the universal fine-tuning argument precludes any idea of a God of Religion. There can be no physical interference in the universe.

[@Nero-Caesar]

@briansmith3791 it'll still need to be proven but if you're evidence is that video I'll have to check it out

[@robertarnold6192]

Love the outfit. Could rebrand CospicSkeptic as AestheticAtheist

[@marcussmall782]

'Fear God and keep the commandments' But fear in the same sense of Ps 139:14 'I am fearfully and wonderfully made'. This is not necessarily a fear that is about threat, it's about being careful in the face of that which is awesome. And keep the commandments. Our response to being in this wonderful and yet fearful and confusing existence, is perhaps a respectful wonder that we we are here at all, we so easily could not have been, and to live an ethical life. That's putting it in more secular terms.

[@TheVirtualTourist]

I became an atheist at the age of seven.. after my first contact with religion.. when I was sent to Sunday school.. and saw though it right away. Nowadays I see such labels that we choose to hang on our selves as meaningless.. because such labels are based on false assumptions.. and misunderstandings. Atheists confuse Christian religions with the Bible.. when the two are in opposition. I refer to both parties as the LITERALISTS.. though I must say not all Christians are so foolish as to read the scriptures literally.. and there are many who I admire.. However I feel no need to attach myself to any religion.. due to the fact the any attempt at collective group thinking lends itself to promoting human stupidity.. Many literal Christians still share the belief with their fellow atheists that the Old Testament is still valid.. while the New Testament makes it clear that too many faults were found with it.. so it had to be made obsolete.. Then 600 years later Islam adopted Moses as their principle prophet.. not taking into account that the new testament had already rejected him.. BIG MISTAKE.. "In Islamic thought. Moses (Musa) is revered as a prominent prophet and messenger in Islam, and his narrative is recounted the most among the prophets in the Quran. He is regarded by Muslims as one of the five most prominent prophets in Islam, along with Jesus (Isa), Abraham (Ibrahim), Noah (Nuh) and Muhammad." "Hence Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to you, MOSES DID NOT GIVE YOU THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, but my (metaphorical) Father does give you the TRUE bread from heaven.” -- John 6:32 But they did not listen.. This also demonstrates the writers of the New Testament.. were also rejecting the Old testament God concept.. the man in the sky.. that it is claimed Moses had contact with... but neither atheist.. or theists consider this... I wonder why. "Certainly, then, THERE OCCURS A SETTING ASIDE OF THE PROCEDING COMMANDMENT ON ACCOUNT OF ITS WEAKNESS AND INEFFECTIVENESS. FOR IF THE FIRST COVENANT HAD BEEN FAULTLESS, NO PLACE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOUGHT FOR THE SECOND." - "In his saying "a new covenant" HE HAS MADE THE FORMER ONE OBSOLETE AND GROWING OLD IS NEAR TO VANISHING AWAY." - "But their mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains uplifted at the reading of the Old Testament, BECAUSE IT IS DONE AWAY WITH BY MEANS OF CHRIST. The Old Testament is hardly the word of a perfect God then.. since it was judged by the later prophets like Jesus to be faulty.. weak.. and ineffective. Isn't that what atheists want.. to bring an end to the foolish beliefs of organized religion.. Well Jesus did what Dawkins could never do.. He trashed organized religion.. and that is true.. while atheists can only dream about it.. because they lack the power and authority that a Son of God has. The prophets are playing the system.. truthful.. yet deceivers.. like ancient hackers.. and in our times they can safely say... we're in! Atheism does not make a sense.. in several ways.. They still continue to talk about the Old Testament of Moses as if it were still in force.. never mentioning it was made obsolete by Jesus... Apparently.. Atheists share the same misunderstanding with Theists.. that the God concept in the Bible is a supernatural being.. up in the sky.. and this idea is popular among many who see themselves as Christians.. but is just based on a story.. The poet philosophers who wrote the Bible books were also story tellers.. We cannot even be sure if Jesus existed.. or was he just a character in a story written by wise philosophers at that time.. The same goes for Lao Tzu .. there is doubt whether he actually existed.. or was he the creation of philosophers. Personally it doesn't matter to me whether Jesus existed or not.. It is his words that are important.. not the man. .... WORDS ARE THE SPIRIT WHEN IT TAKES FLIGHT! When the prophets wrote - God spoke to them - we need to take into consideration they were poets.. so they could say such things.. and it would be understood metaphorically.. not in any literal sense.. like.. they were hearing voices.. William Blake.. who knew the Bible inside out.. explains what the writers really meant.. when he wrote.. "THE VOICE OF HONEST INDIGNATION IS THE VOICE OF GOD" "The prophets Isaiah & Ezekiel dined with me, and I asked them how they dared so roundly to assert that God spoke to them; and whether they did not think at the time that they would be misunderstood, and so be the cause of imposition. Isaiah answered: "I SAW NO GOD, NOR HEARD ANY, `in a finite organical perception'; but my senses discovered the Infinite in everything, and as I was then persuaded, and remained confirmed, that THE VOICE OF HONEST INDIGNATION IS THE VOICE OF GOD, I cared not for the consequences but wrote.' Then I asked: `Does a firm persuasion that a thing is so, make it so? He replied: "All poets believe that it does, and in ages of imagination this firm persuasion moved mountains; but many are not capable of a firm persuasion of anything." "Is it not written in your Law, `I said: "You are gods"'? asked Jesus - I John 10:31 "Do you not know that you people are God's temple, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” "Now God is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of God is, there is Freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of God, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by God the Spirit." "He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the SPIRIT IN OUR HEARTS." The New Testament clearly teaches.. God is a Spirit that either exists.. or does not exist.. in human hearts and minds.. in the form of the Spirit of Loving kindness.. Righteousness.. Justice.. Peace.. Wisdom.. Truth and Freedom.. and it is these core human values that the prophets ask us to believe in.. NOT A SUPERNATUARAL ENTITY! And this was the Spirit of God the Christ manifested to the world.. as the god-man... They are also the core human values that are central to Buddha's teachings. It is the atheist obsession's with the supernatural is where they are going wrong.. All the miracle stories are simply metaphors.. and allegory.. symbolism.. Anyone who takes them literally.. has poor reading comprehension.. and they can't blame the Bible for that. In fact we still use the same metaphors today.. Blind people lack understanding.. Deaf people do not listen.. Lame people go through life walking crookedly.. and dead people.. who Christ brought back to life.. are people whose heart has stopped working.. and Jesus came to heal them with his words of Wisdom And when Jesus walked above the high waves of the sea.. he was walking over those in power.. treading them down under his feet.. IT'S ALLEGORY.. NOT MAGIC.. (sigh!) JESUS WALKS OVER THE HIGH WAVES AND CALMS THE STORM - THE MEANING "Then, getting up, HE REBUKED THE WINDS AND THE SEA, AND A CALM SET IN. So the men became amazed and said: “What sort of person is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?” - Matthew 8:23 “He is stilling the noise of the seas, The noise of their waves and the turmoil of the NATIONAL GROUPS. He causes THE WINDSTORM TO STAND AT A CALM, So that THE WAVES OF THE SEA KEEP QUIET.” - Psalm 65:7 “.. in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error.” - Ephesians 4:14 “Ha for the commotion of many peoples, who are boisterous as with the boisterousness of the seas! And for the noise of national groups, who make a din just like the noise of mighty waters! The national groups themselves will make a din just like the noise of many waters. And HE WILL CERTAINLY REBUKE IT, and it must flee far away and be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind and like a thistle whirl before a storm-wind. “The wicked are like the SEA THAT IS BEING TOSSED, when it is unable to CALM DOWN, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” - Isaiah 17:12 “They have MULTIPLIED altars in order to sin. I proceeded to write for them many things of my Law; Just like something strange they have been accounted. THE NATIONS ARE FEEDING ON WIND and chasing after the east WIND all day long. Lying and despoiling are what they MULTIPLY.” The problem that Atheism shares with the Theists.. is.. what they BOTH mistakenly believe.. is based on false assumptions... The were no miracles or supernatural beings.. to disbelieve in.. in the first place.. Their big mistake was to listen to the literal Christian.. who led them astray.. “Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.” ― Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor

[@kurtaikido2889]

Suffering is even admitted to be the root of most messianic religions

[@Debbie338]

I only read the title of the video and my answer was, of course, “YES.”

[@kaylubproductions4517]

I believe, by looking at Ecclesiastes, that the summary given of it in this video - calling it a "nihilistic outcry" where the author simply "cannot understand why everything is so meaningless..." (3:10) - is an oversimplification. Solomon, as he is quoted throughout the middle section of the book (the majority of the text -- when "the Teacher" is speaking), *does* speak heavily on the meaninglessness of existence, but his conclusion for this meaninglessness is not nihilism that is then summarized by his copyist in the end of the book as "'Fear the Lord' etc. etc.". In fact, throughout the text, there are multiple "stops" where, after lamenting on the meaningless of life, he gives a reprieve that, in fact, the meaning to life is finding purpose-for-self through God. This can be seen in Ecc. 3.12-13 ("I have concluded that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and enjoy themselves... for these things are a gift from God"), and later, in Ecc. 9.10 when he encourages the listener/reader with, "Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, because there is neither work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the grave...", therefore, what Solomon is saying is, *because* life seems meaningless, quick, fleeting, *that* is exactly why it is worth living, because it can only be enjoyed once; his conceit that there is none of the joys in the life in the grave is not him saying there is nothing after life, but, rather, what comes after life will not be the same as what was in it, and that the "in between" - the time we are here on this earth - we can only enjoy our lives *fully* through the Lord.

[@karayi7239]

chill with the background im not tryna get flashbanged

[@r0flcopter]

How does he know that the nihilism came first? Does he have any evidence or reasoning for that?

[@AlexIsPsychotic]

U talk about some stuff that most literally can't accept it, cause it's in fact painful, that's what they've always been afraid of, having no meaning. They always tried to forget it by religious beliefs...

[@frankl34798]

i don't have a lot of fancy words to add to these comments. i don't proclaim to have too deep an understanding of much of what is professed here. my view point is simple and easy. i wish, oh how i wish, we would all spend a millionth of the time that is spent on wondering and thinking and arguing about what is going to happen to us after we leave this glorious planet, on concentrating on and rejoicing in the living of each miraculous moment. spreading some joy. spreading some love. remembering that all we really have is this moment here and now. that's why it's called the ... present. do unto others as you'd have done to you. love thy neighbour. then we would have world peace forever and ever amen/awomen. until then i live in hope, thank the good goddess above, below, beyond and within that there is always hope. love and peace to you and all, xxxxxxx

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I tend to agree with much that you said. I also don't have "too deep an understanding" and I actually prefer to not be any kind of scholar. I like how you said that we should spend our precious time "concentrating on and rejoicing in the living of each miraculous moment ". I'm a Christian believer but I think too many people spend too much time "arguing easier what is going to happen to us after we leave this glorious planet ". I'm not trying to negate the importance of such questioning but we need to spend more time "spreading some joy, spreading some love". I struggle with health problems that seemingly influence my daily life, including my lack of joy. So I seek answers through my beliefs in Jesus Christ. I appreciate your honesty because I'm tired of listening to the religious arguments regarding the afterlife. I hope I can become more joyful in this life and be a better example of love and compassion to others. Thanks for sharing. Peace to you from Florida.

[@existential_o]

POV: The most hateful Canadian

[@frankl34798]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 hello john and thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me. firstly let me say i'm sorry you are struggling with ailments that make life difficult for you. that must be very tough, and i wish you all the best as you go through that. secondly, let me say how grateful i am that you've been able to relate to what i wrote. it really does seem remarkably easy, and yet so many have failed. just because we believe different things happen to us after we die, doesn't mean we should be awful to each other now. that actually is rather absurd as there is no proof whatsoever of what happens ... yet. i'm not a religious person, in fact most organised religions have proven to me to be most disrespectful of what they claim to be all about. i prefer the term spiritual, and have more understanding of that as i age. recognising the spirit energy within everything, including me, is really what the meaning of god is, as far as i'm concerned. but i do love that jesus fella, what a guy. and quite a few other figure heads too seemed to have gotten it mainly right. and if we are to believe the different stories all about him, which i mainly do, he certainly chose a very clear path to being good and spreading some joy. i do urge you to remember the first commitment {as i like to call them, as if the god energy really wanted us to obey them, then we would just be made that way and not have our free will to complicate that}: thou should have not other god than me/thee. always remember you can go straight to the god energy. the energy surrounds us and is in everything and everybody - including you . you don't need a third party, like jesus or church or anything else. but if those outside things help, so be it. my 100% blind faith in this encourages me to be the best version of myself at all times in all ways with all people. i wish i could say i was successful with this all the time, but i would at least like to think that i'm getting there. there are others who would disagree. lol but it's a choice. it's always a choice. remember that and try to chose the choice of love. always, in all ways. may you be blessed with better health, find comfort in every single living thing that surrounds you, and may you heart be filled with love, love and then more love.

[@cannibalgrape9863]

I find the trick is to realize we are two entities stuck together. The human, who is purely thought within the brain, and the ape that carries that brain around. That ape is an animal and it wants animal things. It is designed to like when you do the animal things and it suffers when you fail to do the animal things. The human, in a sense, is beyond suffering. Yes, when the ape suffers we feel its suffering, but proper conceptualization can separate you from your ape, at least to a degree. In a sense, it is not that different of the concept of a soul, but one that works within the confines of scientific understanding. I have a saying, "the first human was truly born when the first ape gained the concept of 'I am'". We are the "I am", not the ape itself.

[@briansmith3791]

Yes, physically we are evolved apes. And how wonderful is it that we are animals and can feel Life within us? The mind cannot sense life, yet that's where we dwell 24 hours a day. This has been the core message of the Mystics for thousands of years.

[@gofaonepaul]

Suffering and pain act as a kind of measure of well-being. I think the religious sense is that well-being and therefore suffering isn't a representative measure of the moral life. The supposed ideal candidates (or loosely, archetypes) for these are peddled by religious stories. Faith in them is done in spite of both well-being or suffering to the extent of martyrdom. The sense of a well ordered life preceeds the sense of suffering as C.S. Lewis would say. The former is the assertion that such a thing exist and the latter is the isolated (imperfect) physiological measure of the thing. The PoE conflates the two. The sense of a well ordered life preceeds suffering and pain, which only measure how "far away" we are from it.

[@petrairene]

Buddhism provides a logically sound explanation for suffering, mind, the universe that is in accordance with all scientific findings. In fact, the Dalai Lama once said that should science find proof for anything that is not in accordance with the buddhist teachings, the teachings need to be changed.

[@mackmenezes4912]

Yes it is ,religion is a cope for the ones who can't accept shame

[@fadesignyt]

Islam isn't blind faith

[@CO-jt7ih]

The upper bodies produce words while, lower bodies communicate in their own way. Could somebody translate what their feet are saying? Especially feet of the gentleman on the right are desperately trying to communicate something...

[@ScarredRomeo]

“Verily, We have created man for toil and trial.” [Q90:4]

[@SnakeAndTurtleQigong]

👍🏻

[@joannware6228]

Exaltation of the Cross Daily Feast September 14th is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross (also known as the Triumph of the Cross). Early in the 4th century St. Helena, mother of Roman Emperor Constantine, went to Jerusalem in search of the actual locations where the events of Jesus' life took place. She found the True Cross which immediately became an object of veneration for the Church. Constantine built a basilica on Calvary marking the site of the Crucifixion and dedicated it on this day in the year 335 A.D. The basilica was later destroyed by the Persians and the true cross was stolen. This day also marks the recovery of the cross by Emperor Heraclius II who returned it to Jerusalem, carrying it on his own back and restoring it to the Church in 629 A.D.

[@joannware6228]

It's A Tragic Paradox That Post Modern Man's Rejection Of God Will Only Imprison Him Not Set Him Free.

[@cosmicmusicreynolds3266]

If everything was perfect all the time it you be a pointless and a non learning world. I understand that to much suffering can be stopped by man in science and politics. That is man not god 🙏

[@emaanserghini1919]

Also, why are we able to ponder upon suffering and existential nihilism at all? Animals don't seem to be afflicted with the same plight. We feel morally accountable for reducing suffering and for turning back towards God in times in need in a way which seems more plausible in a theistic account, especially one where the world is a testing ground for humans.

[@babbisp1]

Nts 1:50 4:10

[@Venzynt]

I disagree on the point of evolution being a result of suffering. I agree that existence is a strange, random circumstance with no inherent meaning. However, neither of the naturalistic processes of living and dying nor organisms adapting to their environment are predicated upon pain or torment. If a certain kind of beetle would better survive with a lighter color shell, that doesn't inherently require beetles with darker shells to be horribly starved or killed. Natural selection is an impartial process with no conscious intent.

[@thinkgreatapethink]

I’ve heard this argument about suffering being baked into natural selection a couple of times now and I think you may have a misunderstanding of natural selection. And I think you conflate dying with suffering. It is not necessary that individuals suffer for natural selection to take place - though undoubtedly they do. The “less fit” are not less fit because they suffer or because they die but because they reproduce less. Natural selection would still occur even if all animals lived a full life and died peacefully in their sleep, simply as a product of variation in reproductive output. Species cannot “suffer” only individuals suffer, but individuals don’t evolve only species or populations evolve.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I don't personally think that a religion is a "cope for suffering". But then it depends on what you mean by "religion ". I struggle myself with understanding suffering and pain. ( even in my own life ). I wonder if the confusion regarding suffering could be attributed to the concept that God's logic is different from human logic ? Have any theologians or scholars discussed this idea ? I could be wrong in my assumption regarding the difference between God's logic and human logic. I do appreciate Alex's understanding because many people struggle with suffering. Peace to all...

[@thenormalman8278]

To be honest i didn't understand what you said

[@servantmapper8893]

Humanity sinned and rebeled against God in the guarden of Eden, from that sin stemmes all future suffering. We've all broken God's commandments, thus we are all bad people, and we all deserve Hell's endless suffering. God does not do wrong in leaving us in our sin, but God is good and love us infinetely more than our sin. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16. This is the core of the Gospel. We all deserve Hell and endless suffering, but since God loves us He sent His only son (Jesus) down to Earth to be born as a human and live a perfect life and hen die on the cross and take all of our sins with them. He paid our bail, He endured our suffering, despite not having to, so that if we believe in Him with our hearts and confess with our mouths we can be saved. Through Him are we saved by grace alone through faith alone. If you want a video explaining it or videos explaining some other stuff about Christianity I'll give you some links. Why does God let bad things happen? (The problem of evil). kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnOsiYOoa6Z7aqM Christianity for beginners kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6KtdaB8g5x-eNk (by this logic half of Christians are noobs) lol. Anyway God bless you.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

Honest question. How would you even begin to understand "God's logic?" Where did you hear it and how did you verify that's what it was? If you did confirm it was actually the logic of God itself, wouldn't that be completely beyond human understanding?

[@servantmapper8893]

He let a book be written called the Bible.@@asagoldsmith3328

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

​@@thenormalman8278No problem. I'm sometimes confused myself. I need to take more time with my comments. Thanks

[@joshh1997]

We are quick, as Christians, to assume that God will always immediately make Himself known to people, and I know that is a fallacy. I say this because there was a period in my life, for around a year, when I could not believe or feel anything about Christ, His crucifixion, or any of the Scriptures. During this time, though I cried out continually and earnestly to God, He did not answer and I could not, for the life of me, produce belief. And I did REALLY try! During this time, I read the Scriptures intently and earnestly. I went to church and to Christian meetings, without feeling anything. It took me around a year to accept Christ as being real.

[@Cowplunk]

The funny thing is that it's just as easy to be a nihilist if you do believe in God. Any kind of horror can be excused or ignored if you just say the magic words "God wills it".

[@ethanweber-rh3pr]

But isn't that fundamentally different than nihilism? Even though something is absolutely horrific, there is the "promise" that there is reason behind it. Or that it is leading to something. That's different than nihilism

[@riskybiscuits688]

​@@ethanweber-rh3prprobably means fatalism

[@fadesignyt]

Islam isn't blind faith or nihilistic approach

[@samuelcharles7642]

Bruh do you know what nihilism is?

[@Cowplunk]

@@samuelcharles7642 Do the google for Nihilism Before Nietzsche.