Why BJJ beats Catch Wrestling

I've been thinking a lot about why it is that BJJ is so popular and Catch is not. Obviously there are a lot of reasons, but I think I may have stumbled on to one of the main reasons.
Let me know if you agree.
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[@Kurtwuckertjr]

It's the culture as a whole. I'm a BJJ brown belt with good Judo and Wrestling takedowns. When a wrestler, Judoka or grappler of any circle comes into the room, I love to have rounds with them and learn from them. Absorbing their best techniques into my Jiu-Jitsu is the goal just as much as I hope to absorb a new friend into my circle. At the few Catch clubs (and some "street realism" sorts of places) that I have gone to on occasion, I get nothing but grief. I don't tell anyone my pedigree, but if I end up in guard and hitting a sweep or sub, I immediately get the lecture about how BJJ is XYZ-ineffective FROM THE GUY WHO I JUST BEAT! This is frankly toxic, and super sad because the history of wrestling is incredible and important.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That is such a shame, and so not a surprise. BJJ has 100% made me a better wrestler.

[@Kurtwuckertjr]

@@EnglishMartialArts you’re doing good work! Your channel is awesome, and I’d love to see a renaissance of good submission wrestling come from it. 🫱🏻‍🫲🏼

[@jeanjacquesvovor8918]

Don't compare art compare the artist. This art is better than this art bla bla is the landmark of keyboard warrior. I am judoka too. Google senegalese lamb wrestling and if u think u can beat any of those guy s u will be disonest. It is not the art it is the person ,his level of skill that win.

[@LibertarianGalt]

If I roll with someone and they beat me I say thank you for rolling with me and we bow/shake hands. We're both there to have fun, just some people can't leave the ego at the door!

[@perfectsplit5515]

Haha - I had a similar experience doing Judo Ne-Waza while having a BJJ background. The pure judoka I beat would talk down to me based on rank.

[@awesomereviews1561]

Been doing Catch Wrestling since 2003. Here is what I can say about it. Catch wrestling is superior for street fighting/ real fight because the locks are objectively superior and designed to main you ( and not to make you tap) and it has an emphasis on being on top and get the job done quickly ( streets fights are rarely one on one so being on the bottom/spending a lot of time is a bad idea). But BJJ is better for competitions because rules are made around BJJ. It’s very frustrating to enter a competition and find out most of your tools are either forbidden or you can’t use it the way it was designed. Also Catch Wrestling isn’t magical in the sense that you will beat everyone that don’t practice it. In truth martial arts don’t work that way, the better fighter will win 80% of the time regardless of the style they are doing. You can’t teach talent.

[@KrisVic91]

Where do you practice?

[@J.M.Bracero88]

My brother practices BJJ, and 🇺🇸 folk wrestling and he agrees. Also BJJ has more skilled fighters on the count of it's popularity, availability and the amount of competitions out their, as apposed to catch wrestling, not many schools, and not many competitions. (Edit) Also the culture of shit talking that goes on in 🇺🇸 turns people off. Talking shit about other coaches makes your 🇺🇸 students go to the one your talking shit about. Very counter productive in 🇺🇸. Nothing kills a legit martial art faster than toxic shit.

[@nikes4444]

Why didn’t you mention multiple attackers when it comes to using catch wrestling in a street fight ?

[@notreallyafamousartist695]

Catch wrestling that is modified for sport is still absolutely phenomenal

[@HaroldBluetooth-uz1zz]

Wrong, bjj original was meant to be used in the street same as catch. Nowadays they are one and the same. Bjj is as much as catch as catch is bjj.

[@CrazyTom34]

BJJ black belt who has also worked some really good catch guys and have done a little bit of catch, and I really think you hit a nail on the head here, the catch community's culture is rough. I also think the way catch has defined itself as "not jiu jitsu" and coming to catch circles from jiu jitsu I faced all sorts of weird aggression, I'd attend seminars and then get like late night messages from other attendees out of blue telling me that jiu jitsu was making me a shitty grappler. One of my very good friends is an excellent catch wrestler who had been through drama after drama in that community and mostly summed it up with it not being worth it.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I really hope we can turn it around. There are some amazing people out there, and such a wealth of knowledge.

[@waynegoddard4065]

Enjoy your life basically. You can go to bad boxing gyms. My young friend I used to babysit wrestled. Flips off turnbuckles. Started not liking the place. Shows me VHS videos of him going mental wrestling. Keep at it. You know you.

[@bruceparker6142]

Curran Jacobs v Quentin Rosenzweig is why bjj beats catch.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Curran didn't do the art any favours, both in that fight and the way he behaved for a few years leading up to it. I'd rather point people at Josh Barnett vs Dean Lister if they want to see two high level folk go at it.

[@harmonicarchipelgo9351]

There's also the massive gap in sheer notoriety. The Gracie family used the first few UFCs as the Ultimate Fighting Commercial for BJJ which directly led to most MMA guys learning at least a little BJJ, especially in the early days. People are more inclined to practice the art they see winning interdisciplinary matches at the highest level. Catch came late to the scene and is playing catch up in an era where grapplers can't dominate strikers with no grappling experience for easy notoriety.

[@Leo-pg6lt]

Nah the Gracie’s beat a prominent wrestler with a lead pipe

[@MynameisBrianZX]

Catch wrestling did have a notable foothold in Japanese prowrestling due to Karl Gotch, and it spilled over in MMA when it peaked in Japan. The early UFC also had some fighters who primarily trained catch wrestling for ground skills. The way they fought wasn’t much different in practice, different styles’ practitioners may be fierce rivals but they freely traded techniques, tale as old as time.

[@George18798]

​@@MynameisBrianZXCatch Wrestlers like Ken Shamrock had labeled their style as "Shootfighting"

[@MH-zg5yw]

The Gracies never referred to their Jiujitsu as Brazilian prior to 93. The Brazilian moniker was part of the marketing.

[@Aitiustus0]

​@@Leo-pg6lt yes, Rufino Dos Santos!

[@henriquenakamura5752]

Before MMA and the Gracies blew up to their current popularity, Luta Livre was relatively common in Brazil. I remember hearing the name a lot when I was growing up, and schoolyard play-wrestling was almost universally called "luta livre". I even had a neighbor who trained it! Tatu and his students were notorious for winning Gracie challenge matches (with Leg locks, nonetheless!), and a lot of the old-school brazilian MMA guys like Jose Aldo also have black belts in Luta livre. Since Luta Livre is to CACC what BJJ is to judo, I think there are some interesting parallels. There are probably socio-economic reasons why even LL guys preferred to publicize their BJJ ranks instead (poorer people tended to gravitate towards LL instead of BJJ because gis were expensive and had to be custom-made), but I don't wanna get too much into this. Either way, I believe Snake Pit is making some waves here in the US because they've adopted some of that BJJ culture you were talking about. They're ok with people integrating catch into their jitsu or collegiate/folkstyle, their learning materials are straightforward, and I've seen SP-affiliated schools posting videos of their newer students just drilling. I've never been lucky enough to train at a gym that does CACC as its primary thing, but I've trained shortly under Gokor and Sambo Steve (who's obviously a sambo guy, but has some catch experience), and both coaches were 100% open and accepting of any grappling background. I've been trying to incorporate more CACC techniques and concepts into my BJJ, which has helped my grappling immensely. I really hope to see neighborhood CACC schools popping up in the next decade or so.

[@HenrikWittenberg]

Luta Livre is quite popular in Germany: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmnTY3mEiNxsqrssi=fnskl5bTemvKcZ6I

[@DanTheWolfman]

renzo is having Hugo Duarte Lutra livre guy open a new Renzo school

[@jojojo701]

I train Luta Livre and from my experience, the culture there is even more relaxed than in BJJ. I guess that can to some degree be attributed to it being trained without a gi so belts end up being a pure personal progress tracking device and not something to compare yourself with to others but thats just a guess.

[@dhalav]

it feels like that there is a certain "trauma" inherited from the 2000's when catch wrestling resurfaced and acted like a frog trying to be bigger than the bull because it was accused of being bullshido or a made-up style. Lots of infighting about who was legit, lots of bragging about being better than bjj, lot of fear about being perceived as illegitimate/fraud, probably a fear about catch techniques and principles being absorbed, rebranded and sold as new by bjj (which is a valid concern). Catch second birth was kinda rough but it's time to try growing past it

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, exactly!

[@MH-zg5yw]

There are a lot of guys that claim to know and teach Catch wrestling that are serious frauds.

[@vicarious7858]

I'm very much in the category of congratulating anyone who steps foot into a combat sport. Even if it's not for them at least they gave it a shot!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, that is how it should be!

[@Overdrawn_]

A nice comment

[@coytheboy]

Follow up pun.

[@waynegoddard4065]

I'll get my coat.

[@Irrational_Pie]

Well said. Gatekeeping an extremely niche sport is the best way to kill it. It’s easy to be the best in the room if a person chases off everyone who wants to try it

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes!

[@bobon123]

I completely agree with the point raised, I think it is an important one. However I believe that there is _also_ a more fundamental reason why CACC _cannot_ be as successful as BJJ. While BJJ is a gentle art that you can do at any age and with any body type, CACC is objectively more brutal, more focused on take-downs and the pain part of submission. Asides the overwhelming similarities translating perfectly between the two, there are techniques of CACC _requiring_ a very athletic body type, while BJJ is focused mostly on techniques that a smaller and less athletic person can apply against a bigger person. CACC will always be slightly more niche.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Very true.

[@FRforcing]

True, but that same is the reason why Catch will always be best approach for self defense in violent street situations

[@carlossssssss5492]

​@@FRforcingif you are that athletic

[@kingartifex]

I've travelled to numerous countries, and it is near impossible to find someone who teaches wrestling (be it sambo, catch, free style, greco roman etc.). If they do, its always a very hidden niche group with a very small pool of fighters. Bjj and judo to a lesser degree, on the other hand, are everwhere

[@1_Bad_Z]

Best explanation.

[@TheCCBoi]

I find it interesting, this was the same problem traditional JuJutsu suffered from in the 1800's. Everything was about winning and dominating your opponent - inside your school and outside. People were injured all the time from sparring or challenging other schools. When Judo came along, it offered a friendly and structured environment that was welcoming to newcomers - BJJ has continued this legacy and that's why Judo and BJJ have surpassed traditional JuJutsu - even though traditional JuJutsu is a more complete fighting system than either Judo or BJJ.

[@lewisb85]

As someone who does BJJ and JuJutsu (inspired by tim kennedy) I agree.

[@senerzen]

I don't think that was the real problem with traditional JuJutsu. Being more complete fighting system means it included dangerous techniques which are UNTRAINABLE and therefore UNLEARNABLE, because you never get to practice them full force. This turns TJJ into basically a warrior dance. Think of Aikido. The only time those guys got to apply their techniques full force was when they fought for real. The thing that was revolutionary about Judo was de-emphasizing of dangerous techniques in favor of trainable techniques. The root difference between Judo and TJJ is the way they trained. We fight the way we train. That is what allowed Judo to dominate TJJ.

[@TheCCBoi]

@@senerzen traditional JuJutsu sparred and competed like modern forms of JuJutsu like Judo and BJJ. It’s a myth that Judo practiced randori and traditional JuJutsu didn’t. jigoro kano carried on the practice from his root JuJutsu arts that he practiced. Traditional JuJutsu is more complete, because incorporated wrist locks, weapons training, etc (which traditional Judo and BJJ also included, until the became a pure sport and removed self defense components). Traditional JuJutsu lost competitions with Judo, because generally the first judoka would only competed when the opponent if they played by Judo rules. When they had to compete in open grappling, it was a even split or slightly in traditional JuJutsu’s favor. If you read the statements of the founder/s of Judo, they frequently talk about the brutality of traditional JuJutsu competitions. Often Traditional JuJutsu practitioners were considered thugs, and picked fights constantly - that’s why the new Japanese gov in the late Meiji era Japan were planning on banning martial arts practice (similarly to Japan’s sword ban). Additionally, Just because an art has kata doesn’t mean that’s all they do. Judo and BJJ have kata like traditional JuJutsu. Finally, Aikido comes from AikiJuJutsu - which is a completely different fighting system than traditional JuJutsu. There’s no comparison that’s applicable to the conversation. Finally, the whole point of JuJutsu os to have a spectrum of response. All JuJutsu forms have a range, everything from light applications (pain) to death/dismemberment. There are no secret death moves that the founders of Judo removed - they just selected the techniques that overlapped the most between JuJutsu styles.

[@TheCCBoi]

I also forgot to mention, Traditional JuJutsu was also more useful because they didn’t utilize the Gi as much. They sparred and fought in thinly layered shorts and no shirt, armor and gi. Their training would be comparable to many BJJ schools no-gi training.

[@senerzen]

@@TheCCBoi I live in Japan. I'm talking from first hand experience. Your claim that traditional forms of Jujutsu sparred and competed is factually WRONG. All TJJ styles are very similar to Aikido. They are so similar in fact, an untrained eye would easily confuse them. Don't be fooled when you read that they were/are doing randori. Aikido also has randori but it is vastly different than Judo randori. It's extremely light sparring at best. That is the natural result of using dangerous techniques like neck or wrist locks to throw someone. One TJJ style that comes up all the time which is claimed to have been doing sparring and ground fighting which supposedly defeated Judo is FusenRyu. It is a total MYTH. FusenRyu is still well and alive today. I've visited them. They have no ground fighting in their system nor sparring what so ever. Think of Aikido, and you'll get a good idea what FusenRyu is like, just like all the other TJJ. The confusion comes from the fact that their leader (Mataemon) was cross training in Judo and he was damn good at Judo too in addition to his Aikidoish FusenRyu-JuJutsu. You can search those TJJ styles on youtube and see for yourself, you know. Just make sure it is actually real TJJ (like Shinden FudoRyu, TakenouchiRyu, ShintoRyu etc) and not some (usually western) dude selling "self-defense Judo" under the name Japanese JJ. They do this as a marketing tactic where they will say "Judo is a sport. I teach real fighting." I feel like you are falling for this marketing gimmick. (Those scammers exist in Japan too. Just look at Bujinkan leader for the most obvious one, who claims to be teaching traditional Ninjutsu.)

[@rafaelbabar3494]

This has needed to be said for so long. I usually struggle to keep my comment short but this smacks the nail so sharply on the head that it really is the last word on this topic.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks my friend!

[@ScottPaterson]

Great stance on this topic Oz. I think the lack of a unified grading system will always doom catch to the shadows. There is also a definite element of people scrambling to be the one and only source of catch which as you rightly say leads to bashing other people's abilities, teachings and methods.

[@rudai123]

Very true. Saying you are a purple belt is meaningful in BJJ. Nothing standardized like that in Catch. There are 2 ways to keep members in martial arts. Belts and competitions. Catch has neither.

[@hiltonian_1260]

There’s also the question of promotion. The BJJ people have been much more aggressive about marketing and expansion. There’s a guy I used to know who started a little publishing house called Invisible Cities Press. Some guy named Gracie approached him about publishing wrestling manuals. Last time I saw him he was driving a BMW Z3.

[@naakaalastudio6655]

This is interesting. I am actually reading Carlson Gracies Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: For Experts Only manual from that publishing house. Please tell your friend to get this back in print somehow.

[@lewisb85]

I think the trouble with catch as well is that my dad told me stories of where when he started training with Don Vines (duel code Welsh international rugby player turned catch/pro wrestler), you had to earn your stripes to train with him Don was legitimately trying to run people off my dad told me stories of don tying him up in knots (ironically I use those holds in BJJ now). Also with this "your not a real catch wrestler" I'm not my dad is but I'm not I see myself as a catch influenced BJJ practitioner.

[@incognit01233]

Why build your fighting style around one that the creators of said was useless for self defense?

[@baoxidiaoyu]

Royce has said his most uncomfortable match was against wrestler Severn.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I suspect a lot of people would say the same!

[@DanTheWolfman]

​@EnglishMartialArts I started by training 2 years w Dan And also BJJ and also w Pancrase and shooto guys

[@andyedwards9222]

A fantastic point of view for life not just training. We should all be trying to help others climb higher in everything we do. .

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely!

[@vercingetorixwulf9298]

I've done Catch, it's amazing. Known also as Olympic Free Style ...... Now I do Savate at age 61 ....... great fun ......

[@johncasarino5627]

Catch and olympic freestyle are two different things, related but different. One has zero submissions, the other is all about submissions.

[@vercingetorixwulf9298]

@@johncasarino5627 ...... It had no subs in it. That's the one I was taught. But I was told they were both called the different names. Another student had told me ..... thanks .....

[@jonathanwaswrong3917]

All that being said, Savate is really cool. Big fan personally, that front spear/toe kick is devastating... God bless all yall!

[@davidemelia6296]

Savate at 61? You're a machine, my man.

[@rudai123]

Standardized belts or standardized competitions are the only 2 ways to keep martial arts members engaged. Catch has neither. (But I still love it, and compete in BJJ tournaments, which forces me to learn at some BJJ)

[@redclayscholar620]

But boxing doesn't have ranking belts either but it seems to be doing fine. Is it the belts that are the reason or is it that BJJ has better PR than catch wrestling?

[@aavinashchaliha7810]

McDojos supply belts.

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

Tbh I don't know the Catch community well enough to say if you're correct or not on how it is, but I think the approach you're talking about is the right approach. If you want to grow something, discouraging people who aren't at the top in skill level is no way to go. With any hobby or passion of mine I've always looked at if the person was willing to put in the work and enjoyed what they were doing. They might not make the gym's high competition team, but that's okay. Both types of people can certainly exist in the same group. Just my two cents.

[@danjames9248]

Excellent content and explores one facet on why catch hasn’t caught on as much as BJJ. Though I do think that this culture of exclusivity in catch does have exceptions. The Snake Pit in Wigan has done well to be inclusive and have formed a brilliant community. If only it could be replicated in the same manner BJJ has..

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I have a huge amount of respect for Roy and Andrea and what they have done, they have produced some fantastic wrestlers and have the most recognisable brand around. But they definitely suffered some years ago getting dragged into some of the crappy politics that was everywhere. It's to their credit that they've managed to get past that and are still doing what they do so well.

[@lewisb85]

My dad told me stories in the old school days of Don Vines trying to run him off because he only wanted the toughest students.

[@kevinlobos5519]

You talk so passionately about catch wrestling that now I want to try it out some day. Also right now I hate being south american, those fight team t shirts look lovely

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Do they not ship to you? That's a real shame.

[@kevinlobos5519]

@@EnglishMartialArts I think they do, but our currency devaluation is through the sky so I can't justify buying one 😅

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@kevinlobos5519 sorry to hear that. I fully understand.

[@kevinlobos5519]

@@EnglishMartialArts no worries, I can still spam "fight team" in all your videos 👌🏼

[@lewisb85]

The trouble is and I say this as someone who competed in Judo at the University level in the UK and does BJJ now, it's about classism wrestling was seen as distinctively working class in this country whilst judo was seen as more middle class possibly because when it came to the UK it was marketed to the middle classes in regards to costing etc who were already training jujitsu (particularly popular amongst ladies). When I went to public (private) military school the two martial arts as PE options were Judo and Savate (I did both). I see the BJJ/Catch wrestling thing as almost the same have we really moved on after a hundred years? Catch's marketing hasn't worked. I think due to stories like my dad has told about his instructor trying to run him off etc hasn't helped either, people focus on the horror stories.

[@LibertarianGalt]

The 60's saw a lot of University students/educated people bring over lots of Eastern culture and I think the working class had a visceral reaction to it. Bjj classes in city are in high demand now.

[@zachleprieur2871]

I wish the word "wrestling" didnt have a stigma. People hear it and think wwe or Olympic wrestling, both very boring and then catch is just noise to them. Getting them to see how it works and share it would be nice.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yep, there's definitely a bit of that.

[@CarlosVerdinOfficial]

Wrestling is boring? Wtf are you talking about? Olympic wrestling is about the hardest thing a civilian can do physically and mentally.

[@justinflott5133]

@@CarlosVerdinOfficial- 💯

[@justinflott5133]

Totally disagree

[@justinflott5133]

@@CarlosVerdinOfficial - I said 100% to you. Stop arguing with someone that backed you up. I wrestled in college.

[@J.M.Bracero88]

Why is BJJ more popular than Catch Wrestling? From someone who doesn't do ether, let me take a guess. BJJ is excellent in marketing. Thats it.

[@nthnpar01]

no. it's because catch wrestling is nearly extinct.

[@J.M.Bracero88]

No. It's because catch wrestling is a superior Marshall art and can't sell itself

[@nthnpar01]

@@J.M.Bracero88 a superior Marshall art should be able to sell itself

[@J.M.Bracero88]

Knife fighting arts are superior to unarmed combat arts and yet, people think it's stupid. People are stupid. You need to sell that shit property. You can't expect the product to sell itself to stupid morons who don't know any better.

[@naakaalastudio6655]

I think most people in the BJJ circle are not of that "purity" mindset. They are constantly on the lookout for new techniques. Funny enough when I heard of catch I went and bought takedown instructional by catch wrestlers. I would recommened people in that circle to work with each other and with BJJ practitioners not against. Hate BJJ all you want but its practitioners will simply absorb your techniques, heck maybe that will save catch. :)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I don't hate BJJ at all. I love it. It's saved my ability to grapple after a significant injury, and made me a better wrestler.

[@naakaalastudio6655]

I know you dont hate BJJ my comment wasn’t directed at you. Funny enough studying catch makes BJJ better for me as well. Simple things such as effective hand fighting I pick from Catch works wonders. 🙂

[@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145]

Have you ever done a vid comparing and contrasting catch wrestling with Brazilian jiu-jitsu? Talk about what the differences in strategy & technique. I don't remember if you have but if not that would be a great vid!

[@optimusmaximus9646]

Great video, thanks for posting. I share your sentiment. On a more general note, I've grown tired of saturation coverage of oriental martial arts on YT so this is very much a breath of fresh air. Cneers from Australia!

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Interesting video. All makes perfect sense. To be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that I am horribly old, I'd probably give catch a go. I really hope that it can get organised and get the recognition it deserves.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I worry its already getting the recognition it deserves...

[@ruiseartalcorn]

@@EnglishMartialArts Hopefully things will improve. You're certainly working hard at it :)

[@borgers7909]

In reality there is just grappling and different martial arts have 2 distinguishing factors: 1. Culture, who the art attracts and how it approaches training. 2. Competition ruleset. Iron sharpens iron and what people in the gym are training for determines what the martial art will evolve towards. The basic grappling techniques have been developed independently across the world, through natural selection: When sparing people end up finding out what works. The issue with Catch is that if you pull guard you are pinned in the ruleset. Someone that's only done catch wrestling doesn't know how to pass or play guard and will get clowned on by a top BJJ guy. All the top Catch wrestlers like Josh Barnett also have BJJ experience. Barnett has a black belt. Catch has a lot of effective attacks but it's fallen behind due to not playing guard. Ultimately Jiu Jitsu discovered a ruleset that was optimal for developing submission grappling: you can't win with pin or Ippon, submission is the on

[@RicoMnc]

The cultish, insecure behavior exists in many martial arts schools and styles, but mostly (in my experience) among the newer, less, or even un-trained people with loud opinions about it. Remember, the martial art you actually practice and train is very likely much better and more effective than one they don't...

[@ThatKenpoGuy]

I think accessibility makes a difference. It feels a lot more friendly and welcoming to walk into a BJJ school than the more rough and ready feel that appears to be the norm for CACC. Now, I will say I have not had the opportunity to actually visit a CACC school as there are none near me but I base my impression off what I have seen from documentaries and videos. Though that is probably not a truly accurate view, CACC has to consider it image if it wants to match BJJ marketing. Another thing I find slightly off putting about CACC is the tendency to talk a big game and act like they will totally demolish any of these pansy BJJers then offer excuses when Curran Jacobs is tapped by a relatively lower level BJJ guy, Quentin Rosenzweig. If you haven't seen the match, I would recommend checking it out. I would be very interested in hearing your perspective and maybe watch a commentary on that fight! Thanks for another insightful and thought provoking video!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Oh I've seen it. Though in the interests of me sticking to what I say in this video I'll keep my opinions on Curran Jacobs to my self. I did make a video on him some time ago though. It may still be up...

[@maksymmerkulow5196]

By the way, in ancient Egypt and Byzantium empire people practiced old kind of wrestling, which was very simmilar to modern catch. Later we can see catch-wrestling skills in the Medieval hand-to-hand combat. On the British Isles freestyle wrestling existed since the time of Tailteann games. It needs to write a serious science paper.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Something that comes to mind, because I have seen it in other combat-system classes, is the argument (or pretense of the argument) that being too accepting or commercialized will dilute the system. There is precident to this: kung-fu schools cropping up in inner cities next door to to the double-featured blacksploitation film and the latest from Hong Kong in the 70s, a karate dojo in every mall in the 80s, BJJ schools appearing on every corner in the 90s, etc., and too many of these focused on keeping customers. Still, there must be a balance found between sincerity of practice and teaching AND enough community support and financial viability to let a school continue to exist, and to be inviting and nurturing to newcomers and oldcomers alike. (To make up for the clumsy wording, I've just bought a t-shirt.) FIGHT T!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I knew you were my favourite!

[@bangermccrusher]

*Josh Barnett has entered the chat*

[@arkalonalan]

Gordon Ryan enters chat

[@dhalav]

and that thumbnail is *chef's kiss*

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It's not bad is it! 😀

[@s1r155]

I love catch but apart from sakuraba and josh barnett I don't know of any catch wrestlers who have successfully competed against BJJ. In order to compete with bjj, catch fighters have to be able to compete against the best in bjj

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely. The question is l, us that due to the art, or the tiny talent pool. And we can't ignore the fact that they were both coached by the late Billy Robinson.

[@kanewhitehead1522]

I prefer the principles of catch wrestling more compared to BJJ principles. I feel as though BJJ overcomplicates a lot of basic moves while catch tends to be more simplified (and painful)

[@frankiecal3186]

Why is their more Folkstyle Wrestler who have become UFC champions then BJJers.

[@HaroldBluetooth-uz1zz]

Maybe because more folk style players do mma than bjj people.

[@davidemelia6296]

Also: on balance, people's experiences with training in BJJ have been good (as far as I've heard/been told), but I've also heard some horror stories of sexual harassment, racism (in the context of training a martial art that was formulated by Brazilians and Japanese people - who'd have thought?), getting hazed because people didn't show up for EVERY class (like BJJ isn't an entirely voluntary activity). But then, I haven't heard of anyone's experiences with catch wrestling, except online. So I definitely can't compare the two!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

You get enough people, some of them will be bad apples.

[@BeepBoop2221]

The bjj scene has introduced me to the guy with dodgy tattoos who seems friendly but thinking about it later is because I'm white.

[@perfectsplit5515]

"I've also heard some horror stories of sexual harassment, racism" I would say the biggest issue is the sandbagging.

[@errolthomas9426]

Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do has Catch Wrestling elements added to it

[@saltygravy86]

BJJ won't hold a candle against Catch Wrestling.

[@TalesForWhales]

I am really great at the first part of BJJ... sitting down. If someone wants a piece of me I will sit down so hard!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It pleases me that I train in a fighting art that can be done sitting down. Just trying to figure out how to work in the coffee and cake.

[@RonOrGina]

VERY well said! We are all a comminity. I have been into both for many years starting with Shooto/Catch then BJJ.

[@ericfierro1693]

We in the HEMA and Wrestling/Grappling community need to incorporate more Ringen and bring it to the forefront. We need to stand out by going back to our standing submissions while the others roll on the ground.

[@doubleb222able]

So. Honest perspective. Take a Ford Taurus and put it against a Porsche 911GT, with very few exceptions. It won't matter who is driving, put me in the Porsche, and put Mario Andretti in the Ford, I will win 99% of the time. Why, because the car is far superior. So, what happens when you take the top catch wrestlers in the world and pit them against the top bjj competitors in submission only match? Now, we actually know how this ends the vast majority of times. The bjj guy submits the catch wrestler. The only time the catch wrestlers have in advantage is when you add rules that favor the catch wrestler. For example, pinning. Pinning is not a clear indicator of victory. As a matter of fact, escaping the vast majority of pins with enough time allowed is a skill that can be taught to most grapplers. 2nd, the idea that pin is somehow superior to the guard in self-defense is comical. I fully agree that you don't want to be on your back in a street fight. But you also don't want to be on your opponent with your back turned to other possible opponents either. Both positions are equally a disadvantage. You're just as likely to get stomped, kicked, stabbed, or whatever from that position as you are in guard. My point is, if catch were just inherently better, you'd see the catch guys winning more often against the bjj guys. Which isn't the case at all, that's why catch guys make a huge deal over winning. Of course, there are always exceptions to this. I'm sure they will be highlighted by someone. The exceptional few don't make the case for grappling superiority.

[@adam-k]

BJJ has a cool abbreviation. It would be less popular if it is only known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Nobody wants to say "I am going to my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu class" It was also televised.

[@NIRJFollowMeMinistries]

The Gracie killer was a catch wrestler undefeated against them Kazushi Sakuraba. Absolutely destroyed them I know because I did catch wrestling myself and even as a low level catch wrestler. BJJ I had no fear of them but BJJ fighters could not even handle me in the ring either. Catch wrestling is really a legendary style.

[@nthnpar01]

examples?

[@SwordTune]

BJJ has the ultimate marketing strategy of being infinitely flexible. Anything is BJJ as long as it works in their ruleset. And, honestly, I think most practitioners don't even really care what it is. Most casual people don't, anyhow. With catch and other specific styles, it's harder to be as flexible because they have an actual identity and style.

[@tapioperala3010]

Never done catch wrestling (hells, I don't even know what it's called in Finnish 😂), but if what you say is true of the community of Catch, you're absolutely right. Community should support each other and be there for everyone. Not berate, talk or look down on anyone, or anything like that. It sounds a lot like gym culture; some gyms just are not welcoming to new people, new lifters. And those gyms invariably die out. As for the Patreon "offer"... Man, you're putting up a hard bargain!

[@Aitiustus0]

I grew up with folk wrestling and though I've never done bjj I've still heard of it long before ever knowing what catch was. This art should be ubiqitous globally as much as all of the other disciplines are.

[@mgla517]

The culture of ‘sucking at BJJ’ is so ingrained into the community that B-Team, one of the most successful competitive BJJ teams in the world, successfully built an entire marketing campaign on being 2nd best

[@danieltiller1421]

Honestly, I think BJJ is superior to CACC for a bunch of reasons. 1. Ever since the days of Rolls (and before) BJJ has been incorporating elements from all the other grappling arts. We don't mind the art changing in that way - as long as it works better. CACC on the other hand is only taught on a small scale and most places try to focus on the traditional techniques from Gotch etc.. This is not how fighting arts should evolve.(This is more like what we see from arts Karate who have now lost most of their effectiveness.) 2. Just because it's better to be on TOP position doesn't mean you shouldn't focus on worse case situations. In many ways they need even more attention. This is why the guard and BJJ hierarchy of positions makes more sense for fighting. 3. There's a clear wrestling bias in the way fighting is covered in the USA and that bias leans heavily towards Wrestling. BJJ is the ONLY essential style in modern MMA. In fact if you look at how people approach MMA it's based on a BJJ framework.. Not Wrestling - we don't turn away or flatten ourselves out when an opponent moves around (passes) our legs. The strategy is all BJJ derived.

[@kanewhitehead1522]

Russian Sambo has clearly demonstrated that it's far more effective for cage fighting than BJJ, that's why the Russians are dominating MMA tournaments right now. BJJ is actually at risk of being replaced by combat Sambo as a staple for MMA.

[@danieltiller1421]

@@kanewhitehead1522 why because we have ONE Sambo Champion in the UFC? Not long ago we had Glover, Sterling, Oliveira and Nunes all as Champions at the same time. But there was no BJJ narrative - like I said the American media has a bias towards Wrestling.

[@quocphingo9807]

so do you have any ideas to improve Catch Wrestling ? even i'm from Vietnam but i'm still knowing this wrestling style

[@BlackMartialArtsSociety]

Last time I check Bjj borrowed catch wrestling move

[@Pifagorass]

The Gracie brand is smart - all about business. Set-up competition where nobody knows how to defend a double leg takedown, make mats very soft for judo not work, turn loss against Kimura legends of bravery😅. Make short classes with lots of warmup and games and minim grappling to get more private classes 😅😮😊 Calling club membership 'family' and overcharging everyone 🎉 Catch wrestling has lost in things to learn from Brazilians.

[@Headhunterhiggins]

Just held a catch wrestling event myself (video on my channel) and it was a blast. Everyone had a great time , though there’s no established catch wrestling community around here to come busting balls and talking shit 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@JeffMcDuffie72MeridianGate]

Catch wrestling gave Gracie jujitsu hissy fits in the past

[@billusher2265]

What makes catch a superior art than bjj?

[@williamw3501]

im a grappler. i practice both regularly. there's a lot of great techniques in both camps. and some flaws. for jujitsu i ditched the gi years ago. the guard technique is essential. however it rewards stalling and gives the illusion your safer on your back then you actually are. especially in a street fight with multiple opponents. also jujitsu neglects take downs. catch wrestling over values a pinning. by doing so neglects alot of aspects from the back. the thing catch is missing is a better competition system especially at an amateur level. ive thought about doing a hybrid style. 3 rounds scored 10 point system similar to boxing. socre is bssed on control. a 20 second pin automatically wins/ ends the round. that gives the bottom opponent the opportunity to use guard game but also initiates progress. a submission ends the match. have 2 jugdes score the match if. and the ref decides in the event of a draw. 🤷

[@lsporter88]

Actually, your logic is undeniable.

[@fredazcarate4818]

I could have not stated the obvious as well as you Sir. The comment was well said. If the truth must be told, it was quite uridite . We should have comradery among the practioners of Catch Wrestling. We had it when the art was in its infancy. What change? The culture that once supported Catch Wrestling has. Sir yours is the voice of reason. Once again thank you for sharing your martial insights. May The Almighty bless you and your family!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks Fred!

[@conwaytwitty8634]

Wrestling as a culture is so competitive. I had the same experience with boxing. If you “suck”, then you’ll hear about it. It is stupid. You hit the nail on the head.

[@danguillou713]

One more factor, that I haven't seen anybody mention yet. Pro Wrestling, you know the WWE thing. If you know *almost* nothing about wrestling, you might associate Catch-as-catch-can with circus performances and kayfab. And to be frank, that's about how much most people know. Cheers

[@gobbie466]

look up the matches against the founds of Gracie bjj and catch wresters. Gracie's were dominated, and they resorted to jumping and beating in the catch wresters in the street with weapons because they were embarrassed. They did that multiple times to different grapplers.

[@slickwilly6868]

If you arena judoka then you have to cross train with bjj and grapplers because of the IJF focusing solely on throws more than ground work

[@waynegoddard4065]

Please enjoy. Its a journey. Thank God

[@kampar82]

I'm the guy who keeps turning up without being able to submit anyone, because the other guys are improving too. But it's the attitude of the other guys, they almost dragged me from another class to roll with them when they spotted me.

[@dragoninwinter]

The Gracies have great PR.

[@benephelps]

One of the things that is best about bjj is that it is a sport, and it encourages sportsmanship. When the tap means the win, and your opponent tells you that you won by tapping, that’s real sportsmanship. There are jerks and brutes in every sport, but there’s a reason we don’t need referees to supervise the regular, weekly bjj class during rolling. You lose, you tap, you continue. Some folks who do karate, aikido, and other traditional martial arts look down on bjj (no pun intended), but I think there is more honor, humility, and sportsmanship in bjj because of the rolling, especially when you have a great group of training partners. Oss, Oz.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

100%! Oss

[@aavinashchaliha7810]

BJJ is Judo.

[@americaninthephilippines]

Catch is Bjj just more aggressive

[@nealaikin5973]

In my opinion, BJJ players tends to less brutal on newcomers, then catch wrestlers.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'd agree.

[@semesabrown8203]

Ive found the absolute opposite. Im a long time no gi grappler who just moved in with a catch wrestling housemate. Ive been welcomed handily to the catch wrestling clique by both him and his coach. Whereas my new bjj gym is the opposite. Any catch wrestling technique in a bjj gym is considered cheating.

[@piotrd7355]

Sakuraba.

[@borgers7909]

Ultimately there is just grappling and different martial arts are different rulesets and cultures. The cultures determine who the art is popular with and the competition ruleset determines what gets selected for in the gym while training, as Iron sharpens Iron. The issue with catch wrestling is that while it has made many valuable contributions to grappling, it doesn't teach you how to pass guard. The catch wrestling ruleset counts guard as a pin. Judo requires you to at least be past guard to get pin. As a result catch wrestlers don't spend a lot of time learning how to pass guard or play guard. The BJJ ruleset removed pins and Ippon (winning the match by throwing the opponent to their back) Submission and a point system that evolves around passing guard/playing guard and advancing to more dominant positions are the paths to victory. As a result BJJ got better than anyone at submissions, developed guard passing and guard playing (actual groundfighitng) to a higher level than anyone, and by prioritizing position over submission BJJ set things up well for MMA. One of the main criticisms Catch has of BJJ is "No leg locks" when in reality the best leg lockers in the world are BJJ guys. The Danaher death squad revolutionized the leg lock game in the late 2010's. This also highlights how "BJJ stole from x" is a dumb argument, grappling is still evolving. No Gi grappling is dominated by BJJ guys. MMA is dominated by wrestlers who then later learned No Gi BJJ. Josh Barnett has a black belt in BJJ and was heavier than dean lister in their match. It's good to cross train and my Jiu Jitsu game has some catch techniques but the anger Catch has towards anyone who wants to train another sport is self destructive.

[@justinquaid2610]

I think if you look at history then you find it to be the other way around. However, the two are starting to mix. A lot of the submissions were taking from Catch.

[@redearthpaul178]

I can see catch becoming popular - the bobble hat wearing, IPA drinking, bearded hipster would latch onto a English Martial art! Get down to your local micro brewery or independent cinema with some flyers

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Got to be worth a try right?

[@redearthpaul178]

There's a video on KZbin of a 'jonny huskey' seminar. He throws every move on full force, giving no time to tap before its on fully. If that's how catch wrestling is practiced im not surprised it hasnt caught on

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There's no need for that.

[@langsnek07]

Its the martial artist and not always the martial art that makes the difference In the proper context bjj is effective but no martial art is the best or most effective and martial arts does not exist in a bubble

[@matthewsteen9789]

Really enjoy your content. Do you think Catch is the ultimate form of wrestling? Say more than Folk style or Freestyle wrestling?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well they each have their place, but Catch is less restricted by the rules, and so offers more.

[@digs1223]

I've never done catch, the only question I have is why are they like that?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I think a lot of people saw the rebirth as an opportunity to be the big dog and decided that the best way to do that was to be the "heel" and run other folk down.

[@TonyqTNT]

Going against my own ideology though I do support my particular Juventus Football Club!!!

[@Philo68]

I knew there was a handsome lad under all that hair!

[@waynegoddard4065]

Bollocks. There's not a bloody t-shirt? I'll get my comments turned off now. Want one.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Check the video description if the link isn't showing under the video.

[@lastmanstanding5423]

BJJ started as a cult. I mean real cultish cult. Just look at the Gracie family historic connection to the Brazilian Integralism (a form of a Gnostic cult). What you described is cultish ranking. In every cult "inner" members have more "secret knowledge" than "outer" members. And "core" members have more "secret knowledge" than "inner members". While the cult leader has ALL the knowledge. This cult structure in modern BJJ is the belt structure you just described. Blue belts "bully" white belts and envy purple belts on their "secret knowledge" and so on... Add kimonos, special cult words like "oss", japanese/portugese techniques, and special cult hand signs. It is LITERALLY how actual cults operate! The only difference is that majority of BJJ schools will not try to completely control your life and convince you of group-deletion. (majority of 'em... not all) But the structure is EXACTLY the same. So you ask why is BJJ popular? Because cults are very good at what they do... absolutely amazing at marketing and propaganda. Absolutely amazing at making you feel like you are a part of a big family and making you feel like you belong. It's literally what they do! I'm not saying it's a very bad cult... it's one of the better ones... can definitely have a good impact on your life. But it is a cult! Now don't get me wrong: I do BJJ myself every week... the art itself is amazing, but the fluff around it is as cultish as cults get. Check McDojo youtube channel for more info on cults in Martial Arts. Check New Discourses on more info on Gnosticism/Integralism. On the other topic you mentioned. I've never communicated with the Catch community in real life. So I can't say much about gate-keeping you described (all the not-real-catch stuff). But I've seen Billy Robinson talk about his coach Billy Reily. He said Reily never had a positive word for him, only correcting him when he made a mistake. Real old school: _"If I give you words of encouragement you'll stop trying hard. So I'm only going to criticize you."_ And I must say I prefer the old school, honest, in your face approach.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Funnily enough I did a video on whether BJJ is a cult not so long ago. I came to a very similar conclusion.

[@lastmanstanding5423]

​@@EnglishMartialArts I think I've seen it already. :) But I came to my conclusion long ago, when researching Cults in general. And Integralism and modern forms of Gnostisism specifically. After getting deeply familiar with these topic only a short glance at the Gracie family history is enough to say without a shadow of a doubt that they were cult leaders. Then it's kinda fun to check what cultish rituals are leftover in each specific BJJ gym. People usually have a wrong idea of what cults actually are and how they operate. They expect something along the lines of "apocalypse-sex-aliens" but great majority of cults are a lot more inconspicuous. Anyway... it is not surprising BJJ is popular and UFC1 was "marketing genius" move. As I said: it's literally what cults do! And I also say again: I love BJJ as an martial art! Just because they operate as a cult doesn't mean there is no value to be gained. Pythagoras triangle cult in ancient Greece had some very disturbing rituals and beliefs. But that doesn't make a²+b²=c² wrong.

[@lewisb85]

As far as coaching goes catch wrestling was never very user friendly back in the day, my dad told me stories that Don Vines yes he did take a liking to my old man because like him he was a Welshman from where near he was from (Don was from Newbridge my dad is from abercarn) living in the north (Wakefield) but that didn't stop him beating the living piss out of him on a daily basis

[@lastmanstanding5423]

@@lewisb85 I think we need more of that stuff in this "modern" world.

[@mattmc9812]

Dont tell thst to the gracie hunter. He was a catch wrestler and he kicked 4 gracies backsides

[@waynegoddard4065]

I love this channel ☄️

[@gretashapiro4118]

Maybe because they incorporate so much catch wrestling and submissions into bjj , that's it's really not the same style anymore as 50 years ago when they couldn't beat catch .

[@rnkmode1876]

Everything being said, I would love to see Josh Barnett vs Roger Gracie in a Grappling match.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Me too. Maybe one day...

[@edddavids]

This guy only missed refering to the power of love.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

This guy?

[@alramadana]

hi iam from saudi arabai and thers is no catch wrestling clsases availble and i really want to strat catch wrestling how can i strat?

[@syedmuaazwastaken]

practice wrestling first, if you don't know how, just pin your friend to the ground and try not to get pinned

[@andrewdunn8778]

This fella looks like Michael Sheen crossed with a bear

[@EnglishMartialArts]

This fella? When you comment on a video who is it you think you're actually talking to?

[@daxmafesi]

It doesn’t bjj has stolen a lot from Catch Wrestling and Judo. Bjj beats those arts in bjj rules but not in mma or self defense

[@Swaze742]

The title was a bit misleading; it shoulda been "why bjj is more popular"

[@nthnpar01]

No, BJJ has BEATEN catch wrestling more often than not in the modern day when both players are on the same level.

[@conorfiggs234]

I’ve noticed catch wrestlers are too concerned with their own superiority to be taken seriously. For instance, I’ve heard numerous hookers say that learning to fight off your back is a complete waste of time which is so obviously untrue.

[@TheItalianGentleman2394]

Take the red pill and add some catch wrestling to your jiu-jitsu game. Also the complete science of wrestling change my jiu-jitsu

[@waynegoddard4065]

Hi! How are you doing my man? Your repeticiatiatly putting out vids man. Love it. That's a new (Kung Foo) word by the way.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

[@waynegoddard4065]

@@EnglishMartialArts What? LOL

[@lucharesu4725]

I like the profile pic. Catch wrestlers don't look like that anymore. Couldn't find a picture of Rickson Gracie to go with your vintage no soda drinking, grow your own food type old school catch wrestler? lol

[@lekcindr]

Where would someone go to learn catch wrestling (I live in zip code 80503, Longmont, CO)?

[@googlesmostwantedfrog147]

Catch Wrestling Alliance-look it up