Why Did My Bees Die? Warre Hive Deadout Autopsy.

It’s a sad day here at I Damanda Homestead as I checked on our hives late this winter. They are both dead. So, now we will open up both hives and try to find out what happened. We owe it to our bees to learn from our deadouts to become better beekeepers.

[@carolcampbell2041]

I have a Warre Hive as well. Had my Hive for 3 years. This Spring they were all gone. Not a one left in the Hive. I have a new group this year and things seem to be going well. It was so fun seeing someone else with a Warre Hive. I think I need to treat for Varroa Mites too. I really enjoyed your presentation!

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Great! I'm so glad! That's interesting about your hive. Were there dead bees, or all just gone? Good luck for this year, keeping bees is a learning process!

[@RCHeald]

Sorry to hear about the death of your hives. But I am inspired by your videos about Warré hives so have decided to build one this winter and set out next spring (2024). Hang in there. We do need bees!

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Good luck! I think warre hives are definitely the way to go for small or home apiaries. Much better for the bees! Thanks for the comment!

[@patricialumpkin2204]

Yes I thought the same and lost my 2 warré hives also. So I am going to monitor the mites and treat appropriately with a safe oxalique acid treatment which is allowed in organic farming. I am the same as you. Not giving up either in fact this makes us stronger and we need to help them. the only difference with you is that I had not a lot of dead bees in my hives. Keep going Here we also have the asian hornet just to add to the complex world of bee keeping Love from South West France

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Thank you so much for the comment. Completely agree! We are also on the watch for the asian hornet here. I think our winters are too cold for them thus far but that is changing. Sigh. Good luck!

[@eastsussexbeesandwildlife5801]

Always sad to lose colonies, we have the same ups and downs here in the UK, we have varroa but fortunately no small hive beetles and the invasive Asian Horney is now in the country. Hope this year has been better for your colonies.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

So very true, but we have to persevere. It's the best way to find colonies that will be gradually better able to tolerate varroa. How bad is the Asian hornet? Those things look scary!

[@eastsussexbeesandwildlife5801]

@@idamandahomestead4221 still early days, they are breeding and successfully overwintering, but numbers not too high yet. I think they are here to stay, the healthy and large bee colonies will be ok, I think, going to be a case of survival of the fittest. All the best, Peter

[@geddins14]

Amanda, I did my first check on my 4 colonies. I think 2 of them are dead and your video helped explain what may have happened. It was very informative and helpful. Thank you!

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Hello there, I am so sorry you may have lost your hives! I am glad the video helped, it's a learning process. My feral hive that I overwintered I think is doing alright, maybe the locally adapted bees are better able to cope. Take care!

[@sararassner]

Sorry to hear that you’re bees died. It’s always a sad sight. In my region, you can expect to lose 1/4 of your hives each winter on average, so with only two hives you might be unlucky and lose both. Definitely look into ways of treating Varroa before it gets out of hand. Best of luck for this season!

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Thanks for the comment, I agree that I will definitely need to monitor and treat for mites this year. Beekeeping is not an easy thing to do especially with climate change, mites, pesticides...etc. We owe it to the bees to keep trying though. Best of luck for you too if you're a beekeeper!

[@kplowman1911]

An honest and informative video on the subject, not so easy to do. Ironically I watched your first video on Warre hives to learn about them. I have been keeping bees for a while now and have tried top-bar, Langstroth and my own hybrid designs. I have leant a lot about hive design over the years and what seems to work best in my area (Tasmania Australia). What attracted me to the Warre Hive is the inner cavity size and the ability of the bees to build comb as they please. However from my experience, I think the walls need to be much thicker and or insulated. Also, it may seem counter intuitive, but the more sealed the hive the better, this way the bees can maintain the air conditions they require as well. There have been some resent findings that mites don’t like the hotter humid conditions which bees prefer to keep - if they can.. Do the Warre Hives have a breathable top that whicks moisture away? And thanks for both of your videos on Warre Hives, keep them coming.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Those are interesting thoughts about the thicker walls. I have heard of some people who are insulating the outside with cork (much like the bark of a tree). I like that idea better than using a less breathable material. I feel like the closer to the natural environment of a tree the better as this is where the bees have evolved to live. The warre hive does have a breathable top, that's the wood shavings in the "quilt box" which is above the hive boxes and under the roof. It's interesting about the mites not liking hot and humid conditions, I will have to look into that! Thanks for the comment!

[@davecavana1031]

I couldn't agree more. I super insulated my hives including triple insulation on top. Good luck mate

[@davecavana1031]

​@@idamandahomestead4221look up the condensing hive. Teach you how to insulate.

[@runningdogapiary5009]

The woes of treatment free beekeeping. Sorry for your loss

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Thanks, I think this is always a learning process. Take care.

[@ericshaun6078]

Where did you pull that one from ?

[@idamandahomestead4221]

@@ericshaun6078 I'm not sure what you're asking, sorry.

[@ericshaun6078]

@@idamandahomestead4221 Sorry I was replying to the guy who doesn't like the natural way.

[@frenchiepowell]

Thank you so much for your video. I've got a Warre hive and am awaiting carniolan bees coming in this year. My plan for mites is not only maintaining a smaller hive to encourage swarming, but rather than a screen, I'm going to try an Eco floor (living floor?) In a sense, I built a shallow box for the bottom that has an entrance hole higher up, and will be filled with rotting wood and leaf litter. The hypothesis being that the tree hollows in nature foster this detritus ecosystem that has predators for fallen mites and other pests, rather than allowing them to crawl back up; a symbiotic ecosystem with the beehive. Who knows if it'll work, but I'ma try it lol Thoughts?

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Hello there and thanks for the comment! I like the idea of the living floor. I wonder if you could order some predatory mites to inhabit your floor? That would be cool! As far as maintaining a smaller hive to encourage swarming that is a great idea except if you live in a cold climate. My hive swarmed late in summer last year and they didn't build up enough of a population to last the winter. Sigh. But, the idea is a good one, seems a natural way to keep bees. Good luck!

[@frenchiepowell]

@@idamandahomestead4221 true true, I got the idea of the smaller hive from Thomas Seeley's research with wild honeybees in New York, and so I'm fine in Southern Pennsylvania, but it makes sense that Canada and colder than New York climates may require different strategies. Not sure if I'll order any mite predators or just cross my fingers that the ecosystem will work itself out... I'm lazy (hence the Warre hives and natural beekeeping), so I might just let them fend for themselves with the couple strategies already. Fingers crossed. I'll also be setting up hive traps to attempt to draw in wild bees to populate an old top bar hive of mine.

[@iditarod4081]

Nice video, never seen mites before, they are bigger than i thought.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Yeah, I hadn't seen them before either, sigh. Things are looking good for my hives this winter though so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks for the comment!

[@MaynardFreek]

Amanda, If I may offer a suggestion or two of how to control the Small Hive Beetle and Varroa Mite problems that affect pretty much all be keepers. I've had these same issues and what I found that works is; #1 Scott's GrubEx spread around and under the Hive's that breaks their life cycle every 4 months to address the Small Hive Beetles and maybe along with using Peppermint candy inside the Hive's to force them to evacuate the hive. This can easily be researched and verified. #2 Barnyard Bee's channel has a video on how to use Oxalic Acid which is affordable, easy to use and effective against Varroa Mites and the necessary components can be mostly purchased from Amazon. I honestly believe that using your Warre system, which is a good system, and these technics I've mentioned will help you succeed with your beekeeping!

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Hello there and thanks for the comment! I appreciate your suggestions! I am going to try the oxalic acid and I will look up the other things you mentioned. I agree that the warre is a good system, closer to a natural hive environment. It's a learning process. Happy beekeeping!

[@jamskinner]

You can also use thymol to control mites.

[@nbeizaie]

So sorry to hear that :(

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Thanks, it's all a learning process I suppose. :)

[@nbeizaie]

@@idamandahomestead4221 yes, We are trying to manage nature and of course nature is always one (or 10) steps ahead. We just need to learn as we go :)

[@idamandahomestead4221]

@@nbeizaie that's the journey. I am always learning and improving (hopefully!). 🙂

[@FloatingIdeasonanarrowboat]

Sad to hear this happed for you. Perhaps you can find a locally adapted swarm or two. And expanded cork is very inexpensive for cladding your hives to make them more insulated.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

I would love to get a local swarm! I was thinking of making them into bait hives and putting them on my roof or in a tree to see if I could get one. Not sure how you do that otherwise, local beekeeping organization maybe? I haven't heard of the cork cladding but I will look it up. I definitely don't want to use anything synthetic! Thanks for the comment!

[@FloatingIdeasonanarrowboat]

@@idamandahomestead4221 I'm going to try too this year. Never kept bees before, so don't have any comb. Everyone says comb is the best lure. Good luck. M

[@FloatingIdeasonanarrowboat]

@@idamandahomestead4221 this what put me onto the cork for hives. Not warre though. I believe it is used for exterior cladding so should be OK outside. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoWboGmGf7p2j9E

[@idamandahomestead4221]

@@FloatingIdeasonanarrowboat I love that cork idea, more like the inside of a hollow tree! Not sure how I could adapt it to a warre hive though, without some serious MacGyvering! Points if you know this reference! Or, maybe you're too young?

[@FloatingIdeasonanarrowboat]

@@idamandahomestead4221 he was much more clever before Stargate 😉

[@itacaperduta]

Hello, I am writing from Italy, and I speak English badly. Be lenient for my mistakes. I understood you suggest that varroa is one of the causes of the loss of your swarms, and that you are considering, even reluctantly, to treat your hives. I would like to point out another method of getting rid of varroa, which has been successfully tested for more than 10 years by a Belgian beekeeper, Mr. Geert Steelant. Its method is based on the use of a mite, called "Stratiolaelaps Scimitus", which is predator of varroa. It requires a wooden box 300 x 450 mm of inner section (for Warre Hives), mesh from below to prohibit access to animals. The box is filled with sterile soil, on which a lot of 5,000 predators can be bought on the Internet. (this predator is widely used in agriculture). The hive is placed on this box, but with a mesh floor, not the closed floor that you use. (You will understand that predators must be able to climb vertically into the hive, and killed varros must fall to the ground). The adulterous predators climb into the hive to kill the varroas. They pierce their shells, and the varroas fall on the soil, where the larvae of predators wait for them to devour them. Mites do not touch waxes, honey and bees. Two beekeeping friends and I tested it this year, and after a month, the counting results are excellent: after 72 hours, we counted on the greased paper 4 varroas for one of the hives and zero varroa for the other two.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Wow, that sounds like a great idea! I am totally going to research that! In Canada we are not always able to import things but I will check it out. If I can do it then maybe I will film it and how successful it is. That way other beekeepers would know. Thanks!

[@mhyjek]

Consider formic acid. I'm using it in my warre hives. Even small and weak colonies survive the winter at eastern Poland after treatment twice a season in spring and fall. I'm using pure 95% formic acid given on ceramic plate to top of the top box under the quilt. formic acid is fully organic and does not remain in the hive and combs. It is a reasonable compromise that will allow the bees to survive.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Yes, I was thinking about some naturally derived acids as treatment, at least until I can get varroa resistant bees. I'd love to do natural selection myself to breed resistant bees but I just don't have enough hives! I'm so happy your bees are doing well! Hope spring comes soon for you and your bees. Thanks for watching!

[@ac5040]

@@idamandahomestead4221 From Wikipedia: Formic acid has low toxicity (hence its use as a food additive), with an LD50 of 1.8 g/kg (tested orally on mice). The concentrated acid is corrosive to the skin.[12] Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, it has specific toxic effects; the formic acid and formaldehyde produced as metabolites of methanol are responsible for the optic nerve damage, causing blindness, seen in methanol poisoning.[49] Some chronic effects of formic acid exposure have been documented. Some experiments on bacterial species have demonstrated it to be a mutagen.[50] Chronic exposure in humans may cause kidney damage.[50] Another possible effect of chronic exposure is development of a skin allergy that manifests upon re-exposure to the chemical. Concentrated formic acid slowly decomposes to carbon monoxide and water, leading to pressure buildup in the containing vessel. For this reason, 98% formic acid is shipped in plastic bottles with self-venting caps.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

@@ac5040 I completely agree that the dosing is crucial here. Any acid can be as mild as lemon juice or as corrosive and toxic as the most concentrated sulphuric acid. I think too being aware of how the product breaks down in the natural environment and it's half life and metabolites. Luckily I did study organic chemistry so I will be able to ask the right questions. I think of the choices acids are less persistent in the environment and pests are less able to develop resistance. I will be researching lots and lots though!🙂

[@ac5040]

​@@idamandahomestead4221 Hi, Amanda! I appreciate our friendly discourse. I love science, but unfortunately, science doesn't have all the answers and can't anticipate all the consequences of its findings. There have been many instances throughout history where substances that have been initially deemed safe have been later banned due to potential harm to humans and other living creatures. For example, asbestos was once considered safe but is now a known carcinogen, while DDT was once used in farming but is now known to be toxic to wildlife. In the case of formic acid, there is a chance for unforeseen consequences as well for both humans and bees, as neither would be exposed to such high concentrations of formic acid over a long period of time in nature.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

@@ac5040 I completely agree, right now there are many companies making chemicals that they report are "safe" but are actually likely carcinogens and endocrine disruptors. I do hear what you are saying, so it's a tricky issue. I want to keep bees and I don't currently have access to bees that are resistant to varroa. I am thinking about turning my hives into bait hives to see if i can catch a swarm. That would be the best solution because hopefully they would be better adapted. Otherwise, I will have to purchase bees and then use the screened bottom board to monitor for varroa. At least then I hope to know when to use treatment and the least possible. Do you have any experience with bait hives?

[@ac5040]

Great video, thanks! Well, if you decide to start treating the bees, maybe warre is not the best option for you? There is a person in Canada who builds warre hives, keeps treatment-free bees, and makes treatment-free honey. You may want to check him out, he could be selling mite-resistant queens that you could buy. He says he does absolutely nothing with his bees and warre hives - not feeding the bees, nor even painting the hives. Part of the natural selection is letting the weaker colonies/queens die off. It's hard, but that's the consequence of treating the bees for decades, making them unable to survive on their own. Wild bees in Japan/Russian Far East developed natural resiliency to mites, because they were allowed to deal with the mites on their own, without human interference. Just my thoughts.

[@ac5040]

rebel bees is the name

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Thanks for the comment. I agree that treatment free would definitely be my preference! However given that the varroa mite is an invasive species the western honeybee hasn't had a chance to evolve along with them. So, they don't have natural resistance to the mite or their viruses. If I had a lot of hives I probably would try to select for stronger hives but since I don't I would have to keep replacing them if they didn't survive. I am not prepare financially to do that, so I will have to use organic methods when necessary. I do love the warre hive and don't plan on giving it up, so I will have to find a compromise. I have heard of Rebel Bees and will definitely see what they have in resistant bees. That would make things so much better! Thanks for the comment!

[@ac5040]

@@idamandahomestead4221 Hi, Amanda! I am sorry, I re-read my original comment, and my tone wasn't the best. I am in the same boat as you - I don't have a lot of colonies to do 'natural' selection. I purchased bees from two local sources, and I picked the ones that are supposedly mite-resistant. Here in the state, US Department of Agriculture shipped in bees from Russia with mite resistance. Several associations since then focused on maintaining/improving the Russian strain. Based on peer-reviewed publications, they found no difference in temperament and honey production compared to other strains dominant in the US. I was surprised to find out how many treatment-free resources and bees are available these days. After learning about treatments and how these chemicals won't leave equipment and even surrounding soil for years, I know for sure, I won't eat store honey or honey from treated bees anymore. But of course, it's a personal choice, and 99.99 percent of Americans are fine eating hormone-treated pork. Anyway, sorry for the long rumbling post. There is also a bigger picture of helping bees, as a species, to finally adapt to co-existence with mites. I will 'sneakily' post this link here to science-based info and leave it at that :-) Thank you for your patience with me! Wishing you all the best, from one Warree beekeeper to another! www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.org/natural-selection?fbclid=IwAR3srdVUQpqY-x9fF6bIOWpHIZXjuyk-tODoMPz0aUylUMlI33kl1NSMWng

[@idamandahomestead4221]

@@ac5040 thanks for the link I will definitely check it out. I haven't heard of anyone here in Ontario that is selling the mite resistant bees or queens. I would love to be corrected on this if anyone knows of someone! I did check out Rebel Bees and they have lots of really good educational stuff, but they don't sell bees. Sigh. I think I will start with getting screened bottom boards for my hives so I can at least know if there are mites present. Then I would probably try powdered sugar, thymol or oxalic acid. I definitely wouldn't use any synthetic pesticides! Don't want to eat that! Take care and wishing your bees a happy spring!

[@ericshaun6078]

How do you know it was mites to blame please ? Also, if you're worried about rodents and scavengers why not put the hives on stands ?

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Hello Eric, thanks for the comment. I'm not sure that the mites were entirely to blame, I can only guess based on what I'm seeing. It may have been a multi factorial problem, but the weather was good, they had enough stores so those weren't the issue. I have the hives raised up on blocks and have a mouse/vole guard so it wasn't that. One hive was strong and the other was weaker, but they both didn't make it. So, based on what I saw I am making an educated guess. I am planning on using a screened bottom board from now on so I can track mite levels better to have more information about what's going on. Thanks again!

[@ericshaun6078]

@@idamandahomestead4221 Thank you for the great tutorials, I have made a few warres this year with varroa mesh floors and white correx bottom boards seperated by 1 inch batons inbetween. I don't like plastic but the bees never come into contact with it and it can be pulled out and cleaned with no protection from bees needed. I melted a teaspoon of pure coconut oil and dripped a couple of drops of spearmint oil into it, then smeared it all over the board. The idea is that the mites will get stuck in the greasy oil and unable to climb back up. I didn't touch the colony all winter and when I removed the correx board in spring a load of dirt came out. The bees which had moved in themselves on the solstice survived the winter and are now busy. I didn't feed them sugar, just going to leave it until four boxes are full before I steal the top box. Really don't like the sugar thing. Hope you have a successful year and it's great we can learn from eachother.

[@idamandahomestead4221]

@@ericshaun6078 that sounds great! Did you get a lot of mites on your bottom board? I am curious about whether that would be one way to keep the population on the adult bees down. That's awesome that you had a swarm move in! I am hoping for the same thing. Damn, bees are expensive!

[@MAQ123]

no, the world doesnt need bees as it is now repeated in the mainstream media. fact is the honey bee is not a native insect in the America, and plants were doing just fine with out it. There are other insects which are able to pollinate. The story about the bee pollination is mainly led by these massive almond farmers. Do you really think what these people are doing is good for the environment?

[@idamandahomestead4221]

Hmmm, it's an interesting thought. You are definitely correct that honeybees aren't native to north America. However, native bees are also in very steep decline and suffering from similar problems to honeybees. So, if we can help honeybees we may help them as well. I agree that farmers who grow monocrops like almonds and cart the bees from one place to another are detrimental. This should not be allowed, let alone the amount of water and pesticides used. Given that honeybees were introduced hundreds of years ago I think our agriculture has evolved with their support and honestly I am not sure that native bees could do all the pollinating of our food crops. What do you think? Thanks for the comment.