Why did Saruman Turn Evil and Hate Gandalf? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth

[@GeekZoneMT]

Hey guys, I'm sorry if I sound a bit off in this video, but I was recording with a really annoying cold 😅 Anyway, as always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!

[@kevinobill4818]

I do find the betrayal of Saruman is very meaningful and enjoyable. Too bad, he didn't live to see another light of days.

[@ldx8492]

Np man, hope you're getting better! Needless to say great content as always

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks guys! I'm better now though it was so frustrating to record this 😂

[@SharonKofoed]

Hope you feel better soon!

[@NerdoftheRings]

Great job, my friend! Way to power through the cold! 💪

[@SinnerChrono]

I love how iconic and masterful a performance christopher lee gave as saruman that its nearly impossible to imagine saruman as looking any other way

[@Junebug89]

Funny, I was thinking the same about Ian McKellen's Gandalf!

[@herachiles]

Lee was a diehard Tolkien Fan, he said he met Tolkien himself, read the books at least once a year and spoke the black speech partly. It was just too perfect.

[@sorearm]

Perfect casting of them both

[@dcarman686]

The two best performances were Gandalf and Saruman. Christopher Lee and Ian McClennan followed by Gollum Andy S.

[@fatbean2000]

I also heard that he wanted to be Gandolf originally and already had the role filled.

[@yourstruly4817]

The most important question is, when did he abandon reason for madness? And why did he sing the trololo song?

[@ldx8492]

His voice is a pathway to many abilities some considered to be unnatural

[@GeekZoneMT]

the trolololo song was a result of thousands of years of pent up annoyance

[@Rahis_0]

lol

[@fromnorfolkwithlove]

I see what you did there 🙈

[@jimwoodman8158]

the trololo song contains great mystical power

[@thestarkknightreturns]

The little details written on "Unfinished Tales" about Saruman badnouthing Gandalf's smoking habits but low-key envying him, while disguising himself and going to the Shire to get some pipeweed, and Gandalf knowing all about it but keeping silent instead of chastising him for the hypocrisy, are plainly hilarious....

[@AmiraMekkaoui]

I just love how petty this was XD!!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah I had loved that part! Seems so trollish on Gandalf's end :)

[@Joey-rs7uq]

It's also kinda sad. Saruman wasn't made evil, he just slowly ruined his perception. Gandhalf could have intervened and drew some sort of connection to him to fill the gap between who Gandalf was and what Saruman slowly chose to perceive him as. He's not only overly prideful, but is also a personifed representation of someone who lives in an ivory tower. They could have been such good friends if Sarumans insecurities were dealt with in some way.

[@thestarkknightreturns]

@Eric Konschuh it's in the Unfinished Tales book. Istari chapter if my memory is correct. And perhaps elsewhere in that book.

[@tsuchan]

@@Joey-rs7uq Oh, I don't know... his name isn't far from an anagram of Sauron. ;-)

[@SharonKofoed]

Saruman was a total tragic fallen figure. Had SO much potential, but let his thirst for power and his self doubt plague him and turn him dark.

[@Nick2014B]

However, I feel like the best stories have this happen

[@mrmoviemanic1]

I think in his punishment he is banished never to see Valar again but I like to think he wondered about Middle Earth and see's it come into a time of great prosperity might in some way humble his spirit. I think it's a perfect punishment for all his evil.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

There is some irony in that had he remained true, the Ring would have likely have ended up on his very doorstep. Those with evil and suspicious hearts see their own corruption in everyone else. Conquered by pride and hatred and obsessed with haste and paranoia he tried to play both sides against the middle and brought them all down on top of him.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Great point admiral!

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

@@GeekZoneMT thank you, Saruman and Denethor have always fascinated me as characters.

[@bluesbest1]

Boromir: Let's pass right by Isengard. Aragorn and Gandalf in this scenario: Yes, going through friendly territory of powerful allies all the way to Mordor sounds like a very good idea.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

@InSanctvs A traitor may betray himself and do good he does not intend.

[@connielingus8385]

Such is the fate of the enemies of the Empire! Fitting username for the topic of treason.

[@luispablogonzalezv4522]

Master Yoda: Twisted by the Dark Side, young Saruman has become

[@WillEnglandComposer]

😂😂😂

[@NumbuhONE]

He literally betray the good guys in both series 😂

[@noowanna]

Young? Isn't he thousands of years old?

[@Edward-W]

@@noowanna he was created at the same time as Sauron, Gandalf and all the other maiar. So literally at the beginning and creation of the universe

[@1ofHenrysMen]

@@NumbuhONE both series? Wdym

[@howardlanus8467]

It seems like a common theme of evil is that it never starts off as evil. It's like gangrene; it starts with a little cut, something that most people wouldn't give a thought to and so ignore it, allowing it to fester and become infected. Once it gets a foothold, it becomes much harder to fight off until eventually it takes you over completely. If you had been humble and self-aware you would probably had taken better care of that wound, much as those who create without wisdom or caution leave themselves vulnerable to corruption and evil.

[@gandalfthewise8282]

Saruman was jealous of my swag ;)

[@GeekZoneMT]

AYE! ;)

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Nah the beard Man jealous of your Beard is Saruman.

[@connorphilipp]

Why are you "gandalf the white" but have a picture of gandalf the grey pfff

[@حسينمانوس]

Fuck man where is my weed

[@rieJW]

The last straw was when you stole his private shampoo and turned your hair white

[@Paulafan5]

It seemed like the other 4 Ishtari were corrupted in some form or another along the way. Radagast did some good, but he could have done even more and was "distracted". The blue wizards, they likely did some good before being corrupted or distracted from their mission. Gandalf was the only one that stayed true; perhaps it's because of the Hobbits he stayed on the path. I'm pretty sure that Bilbo and Frodo played a role in keeping Gandalf on the true path.

[@sebastiaanvanveen3719]

And the fact that in the time Gandalf (before the Third age) was actually afraid to do it. Because as a maia was shy and modest, but because he believed in his self he could overcome his fear. He succeeded in his mission.

[@SantomPh]

Gandalf also had Narya, which helped encourage and motivate people around him. He also avoided being in one place for too long like Radagast and Saruman, to avoid partisanship or complacency

[@jessebrown1996]

Technically we know very little about the blue wizards so it's impossible to know if they were actually corrupted

[@Skelstoolbox]

No tolkien revised things, the blue wozards did great good. One was named "east helper" and the other "darkness slayer" in their language. yeah, if they hadn't influenced things in the East, Gondor would have fallen to sheer numbers alone that Sauron could have called up from that vast area of the continent.

[@BlueMeridian]

Yes, to say that the wizards were created for good and their objective was to seek out and defeat Sauron they didn't do a very good job (of course except for Gandalf).

[@TetsuShima]

Saruman: "So you have chosen...death" *A few weeks later* Saruman: "Hey, Gandalf. Do you still have that two-for-one coupon than can get you an extra life at the Pearly Gates?" Gandalf: "Sorry, already used it." Saruman: "Oh, crud"

[@GeekZoneMT]

biggest Oof moment in Middle-Earth

[@christophermusante6508]

Interesting... actually there are two lives AT the pearly gates. [his][HIS]... but at that time will be some math to go on. Division by zero if you will. Scary huh?

[@asasipogi]

Whats the pearly gates?

[@jamesferris2664]

Am I the only one that knows this is a quote from the Nostalgia Critic?

[@canonkingsley6569]

Saruman will remember this.

[@Yabuddy53]

What’s so interesting is that Christopher lee was upset that he was not chosen to play Gandalf. The jealousy crossed over ! Haha

[@Iruka1991]

Although it was more becuase he was tolkien friend and he told him that if there was ever a movie about his books. He would be Gandalf

[@Yabuddy53]

@@Iruka1991 yup, but I just can’t picture Lee playing a friendly character. Lol his very deep booming voice just says villain to me. Same as his roll with count dooku. Just my opinion though.

[@mrbibs350]

He played death in dis world. He’s simultaneously scary and lovable. Letting his granddaughter use his rib cage as a xylophone for example.

[@psychotripnerdstuff]

Dude...the LAYERS to Saruman. It's unreal. I can't say I sympathize with him, but Tolkien made such a believable portrayal of a human being (not literally, but you know what I mean). The paranoia, the slow corruption of his morality, likely without him even realizing it. The little justifications, the corners cut, the lack of faith in those around you, assuming everyone is just as bad as you...there is so much humanity in this character. It's stuff like this that makes me love Tolkien. I'm not actually the biggest fan of "traditional" fantasy, but I adore Lord Of The Rings because Tolkien uses these tropes and ideas (many of which he invented) SO DAMNED WELL. Example: that whole exchange with Gandalf blowing the smoke rings. On a surface level, it's just your usual "mysterious wizard being mysterious" trope. But then you stop and remember that these "wizards" are mighty, ancient, angelic beings whose brains are likely working on a higher level than you can even imagine. They don't NEED to speak to communicate. Symbolism, metaphor, and simple gestures carry just as much weight to these people. Also, when you simplify it, Gandalf basically just told Saruman off by blowing smoke in his face. So it's still relatable to the average person despite the flowery language. In short: the "trope" WORKS here because it's not a trope. It's a purposeful piece of storytelling that enhances the world. THIS is why Tolkien is a timeless master of fantasy. It all comes back to this intentionality. Every sentence, word, even LETTER is there for a reason. It all enhances the greater story.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah I agree! I think he's one of the more grey character in Tolkien's works. And he's so very human that it's hard not to empathise a bit with him. His negative feelings and fall to evil are sometimes mimicked in the real world :(

[@WillEnglandComposer]

Yes, I was amazed by these things too. Also, I guess it might have hurt my feelings if the elves didn’t give me the ring of fire. But I hope that I would have had the courage to tell someone it bothered me and I was resentful, and ask for help.

[@WillEnglandComposer]

“Galadriel... (sigh) Can we talk?” 😂

[@KeppyKep]

Really interesting. Didn't know that Saruman initially went to the Easterlings.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah, it's interesting how 3 wizards were sent there in total. I suppose there was more work to be done in those lands

[@SantomPh]

@@GeekZoneMT the East is at least double the size of the west- the Blue to the Misty is one distance, the next mountain range is double that and the Red Mountains are double that (regarding Dwarven realms). Rhun on the map is a large, empty space that one wizard could not possibly cover

[@Phoebe5448]

It's a shame we don't know more about the East in Tolkiens works. Couldn't imagine how scary it would be to be completely ruled by Sauron. Considering that these people were indoctrinated from birth to see Sauron as an Emperor-God-King. I'd love to hear more about the Blue Wizards while they were there too.

[@ellerj641]

6:03 "Now Saruman's paranoia had grown to incredible levels..." You sure it's not the pipe weed?

[@GeekZoneMT]

I think he might have had some edibles

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Whatever he was smoking....it made him turn different colors...DMT edibles

[@andrewhodyss9092]

@@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615 it made him turn different colors lol

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Or at least his Grateful Dead coat was changing colors.

[@672Kevin]

I found your discussion of the potential for creative power to fuel vanity unless one possesses the wisdom to avoid it (from around 10:30 on) both enlightening and insightful.

[@jonathanguitard984]

Right or wrong, Tolkien often painted those who aligned with craftsmanship and innovation as easily corrupted. Both sauron and saruman were Maiar of Aule to start. Only Aule was immune, as he lacked any sense of ownership. I think it shows Tolkien's lingering hatred of the destruction in ww1, the first truly mechanical war

[@leviwillis7775]

I like to think it's because innovation progresses far faster than our wisdom to fully comprehend the scope of our actions

[@riyadali4082]

Was still racist though.

[@leviwillis7775]

@@riyadali4082 What is racist?

[@jonathonrobinson6081]

@@leviwillis7775 Styling orcs on Africans and dwarves on Jews.

[@marcelinauy9037]

@@jonathonrobinson6081 okay, that's too far of a reach there.

[@holicekaderliiii6787]

They couldn't have picked a better actor to play Saruman then the late Christopher Lee. Not only was he an excellent actor but he absolutely adored JRR Tolkien's work. I heard that he would read the trilogy once a year. I only wished they didn't change his death from the book.

[@Phoebe5448]

Same here. I did like Sauruman's death in the movie too, the whole "killing a wizard three times" thing, but too bad it was only in the Extended Edition. Love Christopher Lee's performance in LOTR.

[@terrymiller111]

SIR Christopher Lee. Just like Sir Elton, Sir Eric, Sir Mick, etc. (yes, I'm serious)

[@SquirrelASMR]

@@Phoebe5448 do you have any idea of what kind of noise someone makes when being stabbed in the back? *B E C A U S E I D O* . . ." _-Christopher Lee_

[@simonperring2546]

Saruman and Sauron were both Maiar of Aule (the smith Valar), and both fell into evil under the influence of a powerful evil being. Originally Sauron fell under Morgoth, and then in turn Saruman fell under Sauron. There seems to be a chain of falling going back to Morgoth.

[@samuelbattershell3413]

Mairon's (Sauron's real name) was a being that desired order and saw the actions of Elu and the Valar as negeletive parents. He knew Melkor was going to be an abusive parent, but with Melkor there was one will, while the Valar had 13 wills that competed with each other. As for Sarumon, he is a deal more complicated

[@DownFromTheDoorWhereItBegan]

Two words: Longbottom Leaf

[@GeekZoneMT]

These Hobbits always causing problems >:(

[@Zoey--]

The downfall of Sauron clearly. Shire smokeleaf.

[@samuelyoung5721]

“You smoke too much Pippin”

[@joshuah.4496]

@@GeekZoneMT The wraiths weren’t looking for the ring when they went around asking for “Shire” and “Baggins”. They were just trying to cold cop that danky dank Shire Leaf and Bilbo was the only middle they knew of to the plug

[@TheKansleren]

Makes you paranoid... ;D

[@zenqqa]

I used to hate saruman then overtime I realized he was pitiable. A being so wise and strong brought down by his own jealousy pride and fear. I agree with everything said in this video

[@solongsuicide9]

*then 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@dumblenutz5561]

@@solongsuicide9 ah yes, grammar nazis in 2020, with a facepalm emoji to boot you are almost as pitiful as Saruman himself

[@nickmetalhead666]

@@dumblenutz5561 AHAHAHAHAHHA nice one !

[@seabass1180]

"He crafted his own lesser ring of power". I don't remember this and would love to know more about it.

[@dimarg00]

Same here, first time I hear about this and would like to learn more

[@Hashbeast]

Some hobbit has it somewhere. Helps it with it's fishing and dancing. Plus it doesn't stumble so much when it's wasted.

[@georgechapman9688]

@@dimarg00 it's the part of the book when Gandalf goes to him for council.

[@phoule76]

Tell me, "friend", when did Saruman the Wise abandon reason for madness?

[@Thespeedrap]

Good scene Saruman had no compassion and love look at that scene on how he pushed him in the wall after Gandalf said that jyst saying😕

[@Seriously_Unserious]

@GeekZone - I think the word you were looking for for much of that episode to describe Saruman is Narcissism. That trait, it's the main thing that opened the door for Saruman to turn to evil. That and the fact that Sarumon studdied the tools and tactics of evil on top of his narcissism was a deadly cocktail for the white wizard. “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich W. Nietzsche

[@tbrighton8531]

An underrated character in my opinion. Characters that fall to evil are always interesting to look at. I think its always a shock how relatable they can be at times.

[@aldeen9190]

Because you are evil that is why u can relate to them

[@psychotripnerdstuff]

Hey Carl, I was reading some comments in the uruk-hai video and they got me thinking: How did Sauron feel about Morgoth? Both before and after his banishment? Did he respect him? At least as much as a Dark Lord can respect anything? Aren't there references to Melkor worship among Sauron's forces? I'd actually love an episode on this if possible. I've always been both fascinated and perplexed by Sauron's actual beliefs and motivations.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Hey man I was actually planning to cover that very topic soon! :)

[@psychotripnerdstuff]

@@GeekZoneMT Awesome! Thanks, dude! I love your videos!

[@christossymA3A2]

If i recall things right when in Numenor Sauron persuaded the Numenorians to worship Morgoth as a form of god

[@guldronrendar7688]

“Saruman is in pain, terrible pain!”

[@SocietyOfTheSpectacl]

I always got the feeling there had been a battle between Saruman and Sauron Through the Palantir, and Saruman had lost. In the meeting with Gandalf , he says nobody is strong enough to resist. Meaning himself. Saruman: "You did not seriously think that a hobbit could contend with the will of Sauron? There are none who can." Good back story though, definitely his Pride was too big.

[@GeekZoneMT]

hmmm to be fair that bit doesn't happen in the books

[@bluesbest1]

That becomes so much more ironic when you consider that Pippin of all people was able to glean all the info they needed while giving nothing in return, completely triumphing over Sauron, something no one else had ever done, save Isildur.

[@bluesbest1]

@Eric Konschuh Oh yeah, "The enemy thinks you have the ring." If he actively thinks it's in Rohan/Gondor, then he would never think it's already by Minas Morgul. And even better, if he thinks they're about to use it against him, that might force his hand or something.

[@gamelordkiller3344]

@@bluesbest1 you dare badmouth Pippin!!!??

[@ElDuderinoh]

@@gamelordkiller3344 how is he doing that at all? You’re really dumb man. Like seriously that’s not funny at all.

[@beatleblev]

For all the joy Aule derived from creation and making, he was never possessive of his creations an was always willing to collaborate or share. He too had experienced the grief of nearly losing the creations he loved the most. Indeed, it was because of his willingness to let them go, that Eru had mercy on him and breathed life into the Dwarves he had made in imitation of the Children of Eru that were to come. He also bore the suffering caused when Melkor toppled the Lamps he had made to light Middle Earth and ruined the symmetry of the shaping of Arda. Through this grief, he never became bitter and possessive over the things he made or their loss. It was Aule alone who showed pity and empathy toward Feanor, when he was asked to unlock his Silmarils so that the Two Trees might be brought back to life. Unfortunately, generosity, empathy, and finding joy in the making rather that the owning of a thing were traits he was unable to pass on to his students and kin.

[@landonletterman831]

Moral of the story: If you're gonna smoke the Shire leaf, do it like Gandalf, because you want to, and not like Saruman, because it made Gandalf look cool! Or am I missing the point of the Lord of the Rings....

[@Parasmunt]

I wonder if Tolkien was a toker himself. He associates psychedelic substance use with sympathetic characters

[@Hashbeast]

Lord of the Smoke Rings basically

[@brandonolson6299]

Hope you feel better soon GZ! As always, great content. Your key framing has gotten much tighter, I like it!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Cheers Brandon! Yeah I prefer it this way, I think I'll set it as the new standard :)

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

By assuming flesh, and indeed human appearances, they became fallible. Moreover, Saruman was - like Sauron - a Maia of Aule. That can't be a coincidence. Lastly, like Radagast, some of the Istari just kind of forgot their original mission - it had been thousands of years after all - and became preoccupied with the ostensible short term goals they had. It's kind of a metaphor for the whole 'divine being having a mortal experience' kind of thing.

[@wrybreadspread]

Saruman's attitude toward hobbits is a litmus. He despises small things... "..you hobbit-lordlings, riding along with all those great people, so secure and so pleased with your little selves...Gandalf would look after your affairs... ...But you must go dangling after him, dawdling and talking, and riding round twice as far as you needed." Gandalf, on the other hand, esteems them. "My dear Frodo...!...Hobbits really are amazing creatures, as I have said before. You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch." Did Sauron detect Saruman's lust for the One Ring from afar? Like Morgoth perceived Ungoliant's lust for the Silmarils? "Lightly he made this vow, as he ever did; and he laughed in his heart. Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser." And the acquiring of Orthanc is a precursor to empire, a conqueror's turf. "But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived - for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower..." Gandalf, on the other hand, remains a wanderer all his days in Middle Earth, like Aragorn, a free agent, so to speak. ‘But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.’

[@kdaltex]

Gandalf should have picked up on Saruman’s pride and jealousy and spoke to him about it directly.

[@MrCheesyBaconBits]

Just finished the trilogy again and was wondering this, thanks for clearing some things up.

[@GeekZoneMT]

You're welcome my friend!

[@chuytorres9794]

Gotta say your final statement about saruman, was wise, I felt some hatred and bitterness towards a person that I loved a lot, felt the world against me but this video and LoTR in general helped a lot. Thank you.

[@johnnyklit]

One of the best videos you’ve created to date. Perfect length, Nice flow in both narrative and pictures, Rich in detail, great balance of facts and speculation and also the topic itself binds a lot of the Key characters and events together. Well done!🔥

[@georgechapman9688]

All the videos are like this 🖤

[@soul6180]

Last time I was this early was 3,000 years ago, when the strength of man failed.

[@GeekZoneMT]

ISILDUUUUUUUUUUUUUR!

[@TheFilthyFinch]

CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!

[@rojhatcaglayan7402]

@@TheFilthyFinch No.

[@TheFilthyFinch]

@@rojhatcaglayan7402 ISILDUUURR!

[@Phoebe5448]

But the hearts of men are easily corrupted...

[@christianbolze7092]

Hey :) i really love the video. Nice compilation of facts and ideas - but Saruman was stronger than Gandalf, when they first went to Middle Earth. He bested him in Orthanc and locked him up there - but Gandalf was his superior in compassion and in forgiveness. Saruman never forgave Galadriel for example, for her idea to put Gandalf in charge. So im not sure about the power thing - after Gandalf came back, its another matter. But before? Saruman was above him in terms of that. And Gandalf even said that it was Sarumans machinations, that drove out Sauron out of Dol Guldur - not Galadriel.

[@ghrosenb]

Saruman's big mistake was choosing a human form which looked like Christopher Lee. Hard to do that and not end up being the bad guy. He's lucky he didn't end up being a vampire.

[@therakshasan8547]

In the Books Saruman did Not join with Souron . He wanted to replace him . Then again the Movies had just the barest of similarities to the books.

[@SantomPh]

He acted like Sauron's ally and was indeed a lackey in truth-without the Ring that was all he was

[@VojislavMoranic]

Wait i wandered off from Serbian music i am drunk. But i am intrigued, Kosovo can wait, let us hear of Saruman!

[@GeekZoneMT]

I like your priorities 👊

[@burstcity3832]

Gandalf arrived later on a different boat so he might have kept the secret for a good long time, possibly until the incident with the Dragon? Cirdan is one of my favourite Elves, having never met Olorin, to give Gandalf his ring of power was an astonishing act of wisdom.

[@mosa3712]

Jealousy, hatred and the desire for power/wealth, this is why the world need more Gandalfs and less Sauromans.

[@tabletopgeneralsde310]

Great video about the fall of Saruman, thanks for sharing.

[@Timelord2001]

Saruman's betrayal was really a very perilous thing for all of Middle Earth, considering the balance of power between good and evil that the Istari were supposed to be there to *correct.* Evil was too strong, so 5 Istari (Wizards) were sent to restore balance, and give good a decent chance. But three of them basically went off to do their own thing, and of course the leader, Saruman, actively betrayed his / their purpose. Since only Gandalf held true to his good mission there in the material world, the task of balancing out evil's advantage of strength became *much* harder. It's a true wonder Sauron didn't win, and we can see how chance played a major role, esp in the One Ring's final destruction. Things could've *easily* gone the other way. My question is why Gandalf (at least in the Peter Jackson version of "The Hobbit"), couldn't remember the names of two of his colleagues? He forgot Pallando and Alatar altogether, and only made brief mention of Radagast when his help was needed. Sheesh, Gandalf, they're your friends!

[@rieJW]

Ooo the first hunter theme, bloodborne music fan I see, good tastes my dude. Aside from that, I never knew Saruman had that much layers to him till this vid, good job lol 👍👍 Personally from that last question, I’d like to think that if Saruman stayed good, he and Gandalf would be friendly rivals. I can picture 2 old wizards at the green dragon smoking together and just chilling if Saruman had decided to open up to Gandalf and be friends with a positive and nonchalant rivalry

[@franciswalsh8416]

You nailed it, Saruman was jealous, but also tormented by the thought of not being in charge. He is the most tragic of all of the characters of LOTR. He was doomed.

[@TheMessyGentleman]

Your content is top tier! Your scripts and delivery is masterful. Keep up the brilliant work, good sir!

[@mitchrowell371]

Love coming back from camping and seeing my favorite KZbin has published a new video!

[@knessing7681]

Saruman smoking hobbit's pipe weed; that would explain, at the end of the Two Towers Movie where Merry and Pippen found 2 small barrels of Long Bottom Leaf pipe weed from the Shire, after the battle of Isengard in a store room/pantry.

[@dahemac]

One of your best videos. Excellent good. Much appreciated.

[@Tyln93]

Christopher Lee is the only cast member from Lord of the Rings who actually met JRR Tolkien!!!

[@Knttsq]

Nagaroth music in the background is a nice touch.

[@CHMichael]

5:50 - pipeweed makes me paranoid too.

[@NewMetallica]

Excellent video! Quick shoutout to the Gehrman soundtrack from Bloodborne at 8:06. One of my favorites!

[@beardedpanda5086]

Wow! That’s crazy! I think I feel bad for Saurumon. What was happening to inside of him is something that happens to almost all of us at some time or another in our lives, envying others, falling into the trap of self-importance and wanting to be respected. That’s a whole other level to him I never considered.

[@musprutten7946]

now i can finally see why saruman feels that way with tgandalf hiding the ring and so on

[@d.t.7819]

Oh man, when even your arch rival holds your words as gold (Saruman listening to Gandalf as he mocks him)

[@vibalite395]

Best video yet. Very enlightening.. Didn't know some things you said . Made the story make more sense . Brilliant

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man!

[@JacobSmith-rh2sr]

"FOOL OF A TOOK! THROW YOURSELF IN NEXT TIME AND RID US OF YOUR STUPIDITY!" -Mithrandir, highest & wisest of the Istari

[@hithere8753]

He got usurped by a pot smoker and his buddy who fried his brain with shrooms.

[@Hashbeast]

He deals in bails of herb that's why he has his little wagon haha

[@jonathonrobinson6081]

Don't underestimate pot smokers.

[@4everfighter]

As time goes on the pics get better and better

[@JLB456]

It kind of does make one wonder if Tolkein had a ring fetish or something.

[@landonletterman831]

He said, keenly avoiding the subject of Hobbit feet!

[@benjamingrezik373]

rings are a luxury item, expensive, coveted. But also small and innocuous. Rings are often worn to show achievement or commitment. like a wedding ring, or super bowl ring. But these rings are peculiar, they dont represent power and achievment, they create it! and they dont symbolize commitment, they demand it! Like a normal ring, they are a luxury item, coveted, and extremely valuable, ESPECIALLY to the wearer/user. Perfect analogy for an addiction.

[@landonletterman831]

@@benjamingrezik373 I don't know if the rings are as synonymous with addiction as much as with drugs themselves. There are good ones, and their are bad ones. It will be self destructive to let your desire for any of them run unchecked, but there's still that one that you want to avoid at all costs. Gollum is tho poster child for addiction in this story, while the rings are the drugs

[@Hashbeast]

@Dziordan1 I think it's more about the cock rings, but I'm sure there was plenty of rimming going on in Tolkien's life.

[@BlimpMcGee]

I'm so glad I found your channel, great stuff, I rarely instantly subscribe and turn on notifications after watching just one video in a channel.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

I have almost no knowledge of lords of the rings lore, but this was very interesting. Also, that beautiful white palace music as the outro.

[@ericgiguere1618]

That was just brilliant, I loved your insights into Gandalf and Saruman.

[@nythrius4326]

I know that Tolkien didn't write an allegory for Christianity, but I'm getting some pretty strong vibes of the Pharisees here.

[@gentlemancharmander4411]

I think it’s more like Lucifer. Angelic being who gives in to jealousy and envy and betrayers his own kind

[@benjamingrezik373]

he did say lord of the rings was a "very catholic book" but that he didnt like analogy itself :)

[@Thespeedrap]

@@gentlemancharmander4411 Lucifer was jealous of Jesus that's why he was trying to stop him from coming and dying on the cross ✝ and saving mankind.

[@Thespeedrap]

@Frizzurd Loki that's Thor's half brother.

[@Thespeedrap]

@Frizzurd You is there another Loki that's real I know Thor was real in mythology.

[@danielrosen2219]

I would have thought Saruman deserved a less harsh punishment than Sauron. Another point is that while I never understood why Saruman went to the shire when for example he could have gone to the Easterlings. I didn't understand why he ruled as a harsh destructive tyrant either because he wasn't gaining from ruling that way. Could his being ensnared in the palantir have driven him insane?

[@steakismeat177]

I don’t think he abandoned his mission. I think he was holding true to his mission. I believe his betrayal was part of the historic song sung in Valinor. The battle of the Hornberg is such a major part of the story that there is no way they did not know Saruman would turn. Or if they didn’t know then only Illuvatar truly understood the song being sung.

[@janmichaelvincent2157]

"Tell me..... Friend, when did Saruman the wise abandon reason for madness"

[@tyuio4907]

Hey Karl Big fan here. I have one interesting topic suggestion for you man. Can you try in future videos to do something like versus series. For example taking 2 characters and based on lore comparing them to spirit power, will, physical power etc. There are some really interesting ones Faramir vs Boromir, Aragorn vs Witch-King and others. I know this kind of analysis might be really hard, but based on your unlimited middle earth knowledge

[@dylantorres2496]

One of my favorite videos so far! Great job! Love your work!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Cheers Dylan! It was a really fun topic to research! :)

[@ukrpgfan4029]

Hello it's Friday....(Time of writing).

[@GeekZoneMT]

I got your weekly lore covered brother!

[@darkomen5689]

@@GeekZoneMT Sister and thank you. Everytime your notification pops up i stop what im doing to geek out. :} I consider life to short to waste and your content is so well scripted, your research delved so deep to uncover the heart of the mountain. So to me anything you post is worth EVERY SECOND. Thank you. xxx

[@GeekZoneMT]

Awww thanks I really appreciate it! It's humbling to have such a wonderful community! :)

[@The-Real-JD]

Short answer: Saruman drank Whine and Gandalf Smoked Weed they were natural enemies

[@Limubi1]

A very interesting deep dive into this characters history. There was a lot here I didn't know, so thank you for broadening my understanding :)

[@OldieWan]

Well done! Yet another great video to add to the epic logs of your work. You have earned a POB from me @GeekZone! Pat on the Back!

[@immydubby5789]

Oh now I know he did get the longbottom weed from the shire

[@oliver4693]

As I walk through the valley of the Isengard of death I take a look at my life and realize there's not much left 'Coz I've been blastin' and laughin' so long, that Even my Gandalf thinks that my mind is gone But I ain't never crossed a man that didn't deserve it Me be treated like a punk you know that's unheard of You better watch how you're talkin', and where you're walkin' Or you and your homies might be lined in chalk I really hate to trip but I gotta, loc As I grow I see myself with the one ring , fool I'm the kinda G the little hobbit's wanna be like On my knees in the night, breedin' orcs in the moonlight Been spendin' most their lives, Livin' in the Tolkien's paradise

[@phoule76]

Fools!

[@orobis2934]

Underrated comment.

[@Janettemay64]

Thank you for your wonderful analysis. I also love the kool graphics you use to illuminate your commentary.

[@johnt.inscrutable1545]

Your comment about the art of creation giving one a sense of power and accomplishment or even superiority that can lead those with weak personal wills or moral fiber down the path of destruction is spot on. This is true of the feeling one gets when wielding any power. And thus why I believe those who seek power through any means including election should not be allowed to hold it. Only those who truly don’t want to lead or hold power should be allowed to do so. And even then no one should be burdened with it over long lest it weaken or break them as well. Thank you for your excellent videos. With much Metta, JTI

[@Rinzler2099]

Nice choise of soundtrack, love The First Hunter

[@darkomen5689]

GeekZone = The ONLY zone for me.

[@GeekZoneMT]

bruh

[@darthkek1953]

Archer's Danger Zone is Zone #2

[@Armageist]

A platitude - "Good creates, evil corrupts" 10:53: Counter platitude - Creating can lead to self corruption. Clearly destruction is the true answer.

[@PrasokourC]

Saruman is a really interesting contrast to Sauron in terms of their roles as antagonists. Sauron is focused entirely on his own plans and desires, and puts all that focus into acheiving his ends. His psychotic determination to dominate, coupled with his own power and strategic cunning, are what make him dangerous. Saruman, to me, represents a different kind of evil. Sometimes evil is petty; it doesn't have grand designs, and is motivated by a surprisingly childish needs. In Saruman's case, the need for recognition and validation. We just don't see that in Sauron. It's laughable to think of Sauron caring what others think of him in the same way that Saruman did. Saruman's brand of evil isn't presented as outright destructive as Sauron's - at least not yet - but it's still pretty nasty, and Gandalf notes that even a de-powered Saruman can do 'great mischeif.'

[@camerongray3985]

I appreciate the hollow knight music and how well it fits the video!

[@peanutwars]

0:24 OMFG his eyebrows lmao

[@istari0]

Great video! I have no sympathy for Saruman. He clearly had flaws early on as he became jealous of Gandalf during the council of the Valar when the decisions were being made about which maiar would make the the istari and go to Middle-Earth. Had he remained loyal, he would have achieved much honor and acclaim for all he did and the victory of the Free Peoples would have been easier with his knowledge and power on their side.

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Always great! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK! Your videos are amazing. Maybe one day, our paths will cross. Until then friend, stay well, and keep vigilant.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks Jared! I'm certainly keep this going for many years to come! :)

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

@@GeekZoneMT Real quick...who would win in a fight? Azog vs. Helm Hammerhand...

[@penitentpotato1344]

What if it was just because Saruman was still very much in his role of an evil Sith lord?

[@georgechapman9688]

I think he just saw the hobbits as easy prey ⚰️🩸🩸

[@kidd1991]

I hear Gehrman, the First Hunter from Bloodborne in the background hehe

[@BlindBison]

I always thought that there was more to it than just ego. Saruman may have believed that if he ruled he genuinely could improve the world and make it a better place where the ends justified the means in his mind. He may have grown frustrated with how difficult progress and organizing the free peoples were and he may have thought he would not bend to the ring, but could use it to force others into a society of law and order.

[@MichaelLeo]

If Gandalf was deemed "mightier", why was he not sent to the East where there was more to over come?

[@johan.ohgren]

He was deemed mightier by the people of Middle Earth. And I guess there's some cultural/political reason why Saruman was appointed leader by the Valar and not Gandalf.

[@GeekZoneMT]

3 wizars were sent to the East to be fair, perhaps it had to do with their individual characters?

[@ellerj641]

@@GeekZoneMT So Saruman and the two blue wizards? Would Saruman have done something to them, or would he have seen something happen to them which aided in his downfall?

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah those 3. I'm pretty sure Saruman never harmed them, though we do know that the Blue Wizard had also failed in their mission :(

[@therealjay3819]

With his knowledge, Sarumans prediction were that Sauron would come back and most likely conquer all of Middle Earth, which they got really close to. Saruman wanted a future, so he abandoned reason for "madness". Many men would of done the same, act in cowardice for a secured future, by betraying is own people. I do not believe Saruman hated Gandalf, he truly wanted him to join him and Sauron in their conquest, it is simply that Gandalf refused the offer and Saruman had but no choice as is betrayal was exposed.

[@W0lfbaneShikaisc00l]

From a perspective of someone who creates sometimes himself, it is easy to see how praise of another who did not do anything as outstanding can lead you to amass hatred for that person and even despise the one giving the praise and over time they build up until you no longer acknowledge the praise you receive yourself, seeing them as mere sympathetic gestures for someone ignoring your work. This should be regarded as a lesson in keeping true to ones ideals in creation rather than seeking acknowledgement in good work which you yourself worked hard towards.

[@EyesofOd]

Do you have a video "what happen to saruman spirit after death?" That would be interesting to consider

[@JReed7560]

When he died, that bound was broken and, as such, his spirit was “freed”. As with all the Istari, Saruman was a Maia who was truly incarnated by the consent and authority of Eru. His spirit (fea) was truly bound to his body (the hroa). When he died, that bound was broken and, as such, his spirit was “freed”.

[@enigmaticvaran6597]

Gherman's theme works really well for Saruman

[@nemesis637]

Very nice video Karl. As always!💕

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks buddy!

[@murderc27]

The lesson: Before evil comes pettiness. A lot of it.

[@vilrugan]

Gehrman's theme fits well with your video, nice 👍