Why Didn't the Nazis Build an Ocean Liner?

[@OceanlinerDesigns]

DID YOU ENJOY THIS VIDEO? :) Why not support my work on Patreon at; www.patreon.com/oceanlinerdesigns OR join as a KZbin member for cool badges and emojis!; kzbin.info/door/sE8PTncfn2Vga48jH46HnQjoin Supporters on Patreon and KZbin enjoy perks like early access and behind the scenes and bloopers! ▶MORE OCEANLINER DESIGNS; Were People Trapped Inside the Titanic When it Sank?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYKzhq2Oa6-Gerc 5 Ship Design Fails: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6Suf4p7qNJnqJo How Did They Steer the Titanic?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYvIXpiuqpeFeLc

[@concept5631]

Honestly I really wished the Nazi's had built this. Wasting resources on projection products instead of the war effort was a tried and true Nazi tradition. Might've even shortened the war a bit.

[@CMDRturner]

Hell ye I enjoyed

[@chrishorst1318]

Great info and video. Its amazing how big of dreams nazis often imagined, too bad the real life nightmares they created dwarfed even their sweetest of dreams such as the liners in this video. Its amazing the United States has held the blue rib all these decades and still now! Idk why any1 would take a cruise, when they may do an ocean liner crossing instead?

[@ccllvn]

FYI, in german the "V" in Vaterland is actually pronounced as "F". It's as if you'd say "Fatherland" - Americans tend to say "V" like the "W" in "West" but this is so uncommon in the german language, that if in doubt, the "F" is just more likely to be correct.

[@xmtryanx]

And Europa is 'Oy-rope-ah'

[@prairiedoggy1]

Yes, Mike referred to it as “fatherland”, fyi

[@prairiedoggy1]

Yes, Mike referred to it as “fartherland”, fyi

[@darthbluecat0478]

@@prairiedoggy1 FYI, no he didn't. The name of a ship is not translated between languages, as they are proper nouns. The ship is under no circumstances named Fatherland. The ship's name is Vaterland.

[@allangibson8494]

As in Volkswagen - “Folks Wagon”…

[@C.Fecteau-AU-MJ13]

The Titanic and the Nazis... This guy knows what the internet wants.

[@puertoricanboy100]

We still need an Oceanliner build by cats for cats and we have a trifecta!!!

[@CMDRturner]

Fax tho

[@HumanHamCube]

Both are a story of grandiose hubris that crashed spectacularly with mass casualties.

[@tjenadonn6158]

It would be the ultimate SS Clickbait! No pun intended.

[@DARKESTELlTE]

​@@puertoricanboy100 titanic 2 built by cats for nazi cats

[@baronvonjo1929]

I was a amateur maritime historian or more just passionate about it after years I thought I basically knew everything about major ocean liners never heard of this. Makes me so happy to have the feeling of learning something new.

[@Gapsx1eGewehr]

Literally same. For many years I was only well-learned in the history of the Titanic and Carpathia which are, as respectfully as I can say, the most basic in this community. I then started to research other liners like Lusitania, Mauretania, and Aquitania, all three of which remain my favorites. And then I got into warships which is a whole different ballgame altogether, but I'm sure you get my point. It's such an interesting topic!

[@Kasartsart0]

There is another subject you need to look at. Not to learn, you were likely schooled on it growing up. However, after reading your comment, it is clear you need to "re-learn" it. Grammar. Just an observation.😮😊

[@baronvonjo1929]

@user-nm9qh9tr3y I do have a habit of typing too fast and not proofreading. But also, in general, I find English to be incredibly difficult. You would not want to hear me talk in person. English is my only language but I like to say it's not my first language. Retardism is. Because I do be stupid.

[@ErzArt]

I expected to hear about Wilhelm Gustloff, but I discovered 2 projects unknown to me, so interesting anyway! Very good work!

[@jaquigreenlees]

The Wilhelm Gustoff has the war crime of being sunk tied to him, kind of the wrong message for this video.

[@nos9784]

I guess gustloff, as a cruise ship, does just not qualify as a liner, But I don't really know. Might have do do some research into Gustloff's top speed and suitability for transatlanic travel.

[@pogonator1]

The Wilhelm Gustloff was a cruise ship, relative small, 25484 tons and with a top speed of 16 knots it was much too slow for an ocean liner and never got further than Madeira (the Bremen had 55600 tons and a top speed of 29 knots).

[@rich_edwards79]

Robert Ley too. Pretty little ships but not anywhere in the same league as the big transatlantic monsters.

[@verttikoo2052]

@@rich_edwards79 Biggest maritime disaster in the history

[@ninob.]

Omg finally a video about that topic! Love it! The Vaterland (2) is my favourite what-if ship if not my most favourite ship of all. You can clearly see she was designed by Yourkevitch. I inspected the deckplans and found many similarities to the Normandie. Her condition after the war wasn't that bad too. Sure she burned because she was used to store wood and the front deck was blown up. But I have a picture of her in a book and much was still there and she was floating. I don't understand why she wasn't given to for example Canadian pacific because the only thing that needed to be replaced was parts of her steel because she was empty.

[@Daniel_Huffman]

A minor note: The _St. Louis_ was not powered by steam; she was a motor ship, and as such held the prefix "MS."

[@wyster14]

Honestly, Italian ocean liners are some of my favorites. Absolutely beautiful ships like the Rex and Andrea Doria will basically live forever with how gorgeous their lines were

[@dalekinthewater4708]

Call me basic but I do love a good British-Built Liner they feel so elegant

[@codyroycroft9064]

I like the way titanic looked

[@johnvanzyl2960]

It is always impressive that a young man like this is passionate about what he does. Keep up the good work!

[@oriontaylor]

German shipbuilding infrastructure was quite badly crippled in the aftermath of Versailles restrictions, in particular losing many of their larger slipways capable of building ships in excess of 600ft in length, while those that remained were utilised by naval construction in the 1930s build-up (being the only available slips for constructing anything of heavy cruiser size or larger). AG Vulcan’s Hamburg and Stettin yards lost their largest slips, and Schichau at Danzig and Howaltdstwerke in Kiel were similarly crippled. The supporting infrastructure for most of the largest yards was also subject to destruction by the orders of the Inter-Allied Commission of Control, meaning that the ability to fabricate frames, plates and other material at the yards was limited or eliminated entirely. Germany never quite managed to get back to the level of its vast pre-WWI shipbuilding industry, which even then was still far behind Britain’s.

[@Kasartsart0]

Brilliant😊

[@NonsensicalNauticalRambings]

If I’m thinking of the right ship, it was a Hamburg Amerika Liner named Viktoria. Beautiful ship, like all Hamburg Amerika liners. Edit: Never heard of Amerika or the second Vaterland, nice to learn something new.

[@surayajamaludin3289]

Hamburger

[@marhawkman303]

Perhaps the most famous Hamburg-Amerika ship was the Steiermark... though more commonly called Kormoran. Yeah... the Kormoran that sank in the Indian Ocean near Australia... that Kormoran.

[@NonsensicalNauticalRambings]

@@marhawkman303 I can see where your coming from, but I feel as if the most famous (and deadly) would be the Wilhelm Gustloff.

[@marhawkman303]

@@NonsensicalNauticalRambings hmm hard to compare that since two very different reasons for that claim. But yeah, both highly notable in their own right.

[@stigjohnnynaustdal4844]

The Vaterland had a gorgeous design. One of my favourites, even she never got to sail.

[@Kaidhicksii]

I respect your opinion.

[@sometimesiwi]

personally im not a fan of almost any of the german liners bridges including vaterland the only good german liners with clean bridges are just Bremen and imperator to me and the vaterlands bridge design messes it up for me although i love her clean normandie inspiration

[@dougmessenger3783]

Just recently subscribed. I definitely appreciate the quality programs that you provide on here. I watch these videos over and over again... Can't seem to get enough information on this channel, very interesting and keeps me well entertained! Thanks again!

[@2nicnag2]

I was watching a different channel on a ship capsizing, but saw your video right below and immediately switched, I enjoy how you tell history/how engaging you are plus our teenager is a HUGE military history buff (on the evolution of equipment and how men like Hitler rise to power). I can’t wait to show him this video!

[@IvyroseGullwhacker]

My best friend lives in Hamburg; he can almost see Blohm & Voss from his apartment. It blows my mind to see images from Operation Gamora, because it's completely different from the city I love and visit today. History sends chills up my spine like nothing else.

[@davidhudson3534]

Great video! I might argue that Nazi Germany did make a move for the fastest Atlantic crossing, and succeeded by far with the Hindenburg. Sure it didn’t have the capacity of an ocean liner, but if the point was prestige and symbolism, Hindenburg was in a whole other league. I also imagine zeppelins would need less of a subsidy, just from logistics alone. When the Hindenburg exploded, there was already a sister under construction and another on paper. Such a tragic shame helium wasn’t used.

[@davidkorlin4312]

Exactly. The Nazis were more than happy to use the airships, first the Graf Zeppelin and then the Hindenburg, as their prestige projects--much to the chagrin of some of the airshipmen.

[@davidkorlin4312]

If memory serves, Hindenburg was originally designed (around 1930) to fly with helium. However, the US wouldn't sell helium to Nazi Germany when the ship was finally completed (1936).

[@rosiehawtrey]

@@davidkorlin4312 Yeah but there was also the fact there wasn't enough helium to fill her and it would have taken years to make the shortfall up.

[@shipfusarelaifu]

@@davidkorlin4312 yeah that is right, thats why they went with what they did. But to be fair, zepplins days were numbered even if the Hindenberg disaster hadn't happened.

[@torgeirbrandsnes1916]

Great vlog as always! Norway did not have the biggest, fastest or prettiest but we had the Grand old lady of the north Atlantic the S/S Stavangerfjord. She sailed from Scandinavia to Canada and the U.S between 1917-1964! Her final duty? Hotel ship for the 1964 olympics in Tokyo! If you need some more info pls let me know. My father sailed in her. Keep up the good work! Be safe!

[@phillippvongrahl9569]

A very well done and informative post! The Hapag shipping company was one of the world's largest freight shipping companies and considered the operation of purely passenger ships to be uneconomical after the First World War. The three sister ships of the "Fatherland" type should in any case be able to be operated economically without government subsidy, which is why a medium-sized six-day ship was chosen, which would consume far less fuel and be far better utilized. From 1940 onwards, the three Liners were supposed to replace the four turbine ships "New York", "Deutschland, "Hamburg" and "Hansa" on the New York route. Hapag had been publicly advertising the new "Fatherland" on posters since 1938. The "America " from North German Lloyd was intended to replace "Bremen" and "Europa" from 1942 onwards. "Vaterland" and "Amerika" were the first ocean liners on which the tourist class would have had more space than the first class. The tourist class was the largest growth market on the North Atlantic in the 1930s, while first class stagnated. The two shipping companies' plans for the construction of new ocean liners had not been questioned by the Reich government, although the ministries involved knew full well that the shipyards would be needed for the construction of the navy's large battleships. However, the Nazi government wanted to keep the German population believing in peace for as long as possible and in 1938/39 it commissioned the two large new cruise ships "Wilhelm Gustloff" and "Robert "Ley" through the Nazi union German Labor Front leave for cheap vacation trips.

[@pastramilad]

oceanliners and wwii have been two of my special interests for years, i am so glad i found this video, best of both worlds

[@toddkurzbard]

Both of these vessels were covered in the book DAMNED BY DESTINY, but it has probably been out of print for close to 40 years (I got my copy in early-mid '80's). I believe, though, an updated version has been printed, under a different title that I can't remember.

[@richatom71]

Another brilliant episode .

[@hughie522]

I hadn't heard of these two proposed ships til today, so thank you!

[@Doctor_HB]

So nice to hear about that. Especially when you live in Bremen like me. AG Weser has/had such a big History here and so much Ships were build here. Sadly in the mid 1990's they went bankrupt and on the old area of the shipyard now is a Shopping Mall called "Waterfront", former "Spacepark" which was a huge fail. One of the few things that's reminds of the "AG Weser" is the a tram stop nearby, called "Use Akschen". It's Plattdeutsch (literally translated to flatgerman), a german dialect spoken in parts of northern germany, for "Unsere Aktien" (Our Shares) a nickname for the "AG Weser" as the AG stands for "Aktien Gesellschaft" (Public Company).

[@RavenCaptain1830]

Really interesting video. Would love to see an Alt History featuring America/Viktoria. Maybe the Allies attempt to seize her and the crew scuttles they ship or maybe she is involved in Operation Hannibal only to fall prey to submarine and air attack. Her design is neat and I would love to see a full rendering. This prompted me to do cursory research other ocean liner designs of the late thirties that could have been if not for the intervention of World War II including a particularly hideous design concept for the French ocean liner Bretagne. Would love more content on never built ships.

[@Kaidhicksii]

So you're just seeing that design of the Bretagne now? XD I'm more interested in an alt timeline for Viktoria without the war, on how she would've faired against other liners from the 40s-60s.

[@blank_earth]

Man that liner looks beautiful, with that funnel it looks very modern for its time

[@splicetape9435]

Any plans on a video about the Cap Arcona? It was the German liner that was used to portray the Titanic in the 1943 German propaganda film.

[@skarthik1296]

Great video and a really informative one. The ships in this video were really amazing.These designs are the ones that i would like to see. I always had a soft spot for german oceanliners in my heart, of course british oceanliners are legendary but there was something about these german oceanliners which always makes me just admire them all the time. i wish i could see all these oceanliners infront of me but thats not possible.keep up the great work and lots of support from india.

[@danielintheantipodes6741]

Your happy smile never fails to cheer me! Thank you for the video! I live in hope of you creating a video about the old Marco Polo. It is quite amazing to me how little information there is about it. Yet it was a very popular ship in its day.

[@bariumcolbalteinsteinkoolaid]

Interesting fact in regards to the Nazis using the name “Amerika” for their super ocean liner. That was actually one of the first widely used code names given to Adolf Hitler’s personal train in 1940. The code name changed in 1943.

[@K1ddkanuck]

I hope this leads to another set of alt-history videos similar to the ones for Titanic and Britannic!

[@ronjones1077]

Great history lesson. Thank you for your in-depth research.

[@ijnfleetadmiral]

I've seen a drawing of Vaterland's planned running mate...she would've looked slightly different and been named Bismarck. Never knew there was to have been a third ship as well!

[@adrianghandtchi1562]

I was wondering since you focused on German ships can you make a video devoted to MV Willhelm Gustlaff? It was originally supposed to be a cruise ship and then it was used in the war efforts which caused such a horrible death to so many people many civilians included. Especially if you can shed some light on the design of the ship especially the interior and maybe compare it to the wreck and The controversy of the further damage the wreck had endured.

[@trynnallen]

and if Vaterland had been finished prior to the war and fitted out, would likely have suffered a similar fate. The Russian subs, at the end, were practically unopposed in the Baltic and shipping movements, especially large ones like the Vaterland would have been a juicy target to a lurking Ruskie.

[@merthemarijberkhout3814]

The only channel that i use the bell on is yours. I love your videos 😁

[@OceanlinerDesigns]

Yay! Thanks for watching :)

[@merthemarijberkhout3814]

@@OceanlinerDesigns thanks for making these amazing videos

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

Great show Mike! Those are two German ships I never knew about and it's a wasted day if you don't leaarn something new. Viktoria MIGHT have given Normandie and Queen Mary (and later the Queen Elizabeth) a real run for their money if there hadn't been a war. Vaterland? Not so much, that one strikes me a strictly a workhorse, not a racehorse. Built to do a job and do it well but without any panache. Thanks for posting! You know, by his birthday in 1939 Hitler was sitting on top of the world, starting a war was just plain stupid. He had everything he wanted but it still wasn't enough. He took his superb military machine for a test drive around the block and in the end put it and his country in the ditch.

[@Kaidhicksii]

You said it perfectly. Big, big shame.

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

@@Kaidhicksii Here's the thing. As more than one historian has said IF there had been no harassment and persecution of the Jews and IF there had been no persecution of opposing politcal parties and IF there had been no war considering what he accomplished in six years Hitler might have been remembered as one of the most remarkable statesmen in European history. But it was not to be.

[@Kaidhicksii]

@@wayneantoniazzi2706 Dang. So he really threw that all away, huh?

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

@@Kaidhicksii He sure did. Look at the state of Germany in 1933 and then look at it in 1939.

[@monsieurcommissaire1628]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. You're right, though.

[@manugamer9984]

As an Italian, I remember the Rex... it won the blue ribbon, was very modern in its design and was also the biggest ocean liner ever built in Italy up to the 1990s. It was hit by incendiary bombs in 1944 and was scrapped in the 1950s... such a tragedy. It served its propaganda purpose masterfully for years: unfortunately, he too was a casualty of the war.

[@MikeDelaney-ie4je]

Really enjoying these documentaries. You mentioned the South American run for the Hamburg Sud Line. One of those liners on this run, was the Monte Rosa. At 13,882 GRT it was a lot smaller than the liners on the North America crossing. The ship was used by the German Navy as a recreation ship for the Tirpitz in the Norwegian Fiords. This was necessary as the Tirpitz only had accommodation for short forays into the North Atlantic. After a number of unsuccessful attempts to sink the Monte Rosa, the ship was handed over to the UK. Used as a troopship and renamed HMTS Empire Windrush, the ship carried some of the first immigrants from the Carribbean to the UK. Might make for an interesting subject for one of your documentaries?

[@mixalism1318]

Wonderful work as always- the interwar German liners are quite interesting (I think the Patria had a oval lounge, flowing into a tea room with an opening glass ceiling - quite the image!) if not massive. The lidos on the HAPAG ships were stunning.

[@F.R.E.D.D2986]

One thing that must always be remembered: Germany doesn't have a lot of resources, if the question is, 'why did *blank* not happen?' It is more then likely, resources.

[@gd88467]

Yep +other projects taking said resources i.e German Plan Z for capital ships.

[@seltexmx]

As always, great video: Interesting, factual and fun. Thanks for the upload.

[@Gnoccy]

Must have been quite the metaphor for the people in Hamburg at the time, seeing the blown up Vaterland as part of their skyline.

[@rraddena]

This was an excellent video. Learning so much from you especially history that I was never taught in high school (my high school was not very good). Keep 'em coming.

[@tomlindsay4629]

Amerika/Victoria would have been amazing; 5 props!

[@marekkopton2546]

This is the perfect example of an interesting ocean liner content.

[@doeixo]

wow that first ship was a stunner

[@MsSteelphoenix]

Very interesting information, and well-presented... but what I like best is the subtle shade! 😆

[@1940limited]

The St. Louis is famous for it's ill fated trip in 1939 from Hamburg to Cuba, the US and Canada in an effort to save about 900 Jews onboard. No country would take them so it returned home, where about 250 of its passengers did ultimately die in concentration camps.

[@PeBoVision]

Excellent video as always Marc. I can't see the Victoria surviving far beyond the war, had it been built to it's original specs. A commercial liner requiring government fuel subsidies would not be popular on the market, and post-war Germany was hardly in an economic position to refit her or operate her. At best she would have been slowed to a crawl by reducing the powerplant and total propellers and sold to a cruiseline for pennies on the dollar. At worst she'd have been salvaged for her raw materials. (The latter more likely)

[@odenviking]

Thanks for uploading this intresting tidbit of oceanliner history. you are doing a great work in filling in the gaps . 👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@jackseymour1757]

Fabulous review. I’d heard of the ship but didn’t know that it was so close to completion.

[@HurrpyDurrDerp]

>12 years Yeah but only 6 of them were peacetime. There's no way an ocean liner would've had commercial success after 1939.

[@andrewporter1432]

A little known event took place when the battleship Bismarck's hull accidentally hit the passenger liner Vaterland, which was moored at an adjacent pier on the day the battleship was commissioned. The collision caused no damage but did bend Bismarck's flag staff. There are several pictures of the event that can be found online.

[@Erik_Wulf]

Oh wow, I am german and I am a ship fan, but I have never heard about those ships. I wish the Naziassholes would have never started this stupid war and the holocaust and instead would have realised all the ambitios buildings and vehicles they had in mind. I would realy like to see those ocean liners in real, not just on paper. Great video, thank you:)

[@gd88467]

@@lagresomadsl Wow you really are delusional.

[@torgejh9189]

Ist einfach so. Wenn der Hitler und seine Mannen nicht solche geistesgestörten Schweine gewesen wären, hätte Deutschland heutzutage wahrscheinlich auf einem Level mit den USA, China, oder Russland sein können. Unser schönes Deutschland hatte und hat das Potenzial dazu, aber wir sind einfach immer schon absolut scheiße darin, unsere Führungskräfte auszusuchen.

[@duckface81]

thats what happens when you let the far right rule your country dont vote for antidemocratic parties, people

[@cruzebear70]

Vataland would definitely be the budget choice. But besides that I do not think most people would choose it for other reasons.

[@SaturnCanuck]

That was great. I always love how you well-dressed in your videos.

[@anthonyxuereb792]

I read somewhere that the QEII design was also influenced by the Normandie and on closer inspection I have to agree.

[@ikkelimburg3552]

What about the Wilhelm Gustloff? It was build as a cruiseship for the nazi-organization Kraft durch Freude in 1937 (designed for 1800 passengers), was named after a Swiss nazi, christened by Adolf himself and finally was sunken by a Russian submarine at the end of WWII and became the biggest maritime disaster of all times with an estimated 7000-9000 casualties (number varies)

[@foxstarline4997]

I respect you for this!!! We must remember history as bad as it was...Germany had some beautiful ships!

[@NonsensicalNauticalRambings]

Indeed, and most had short careers under the German flag.

[@ccllvn]

Scharnhorst is gorgeous

[@connorbranscombe6819]

@Christy Li Bismarck sunk on its first mission lol

[@Matt-fl8uy]

True, but if it had been built it likely would have been built with slave labor.

[@PreservationEnthusiast]

Hitler would probably have used his Ocean liner as a prison camp and execution facility for Jews.

[@shelbycoffey7441]

Never heard of this at all, very interesting!

[@mnhoss2100]

Good report as always sir

[@josephd9190]

Would have enjoys to see how the superliner would have looked if completed. Great info and video thanks!

[@Tzvi092]

Realizing that it is technically off-topic, but also the only ship mentioned in your report that ever sailed a historically noteworthy voyage, I was a bit curious as to why you did not mention, regarding the St. Louis, the voyage referred to, and even documented in film, as the "Voyage Of The Damned" and the long-term impact its fate had in the chronicles of the time.

[@OceanlinerDesigns]

I plan to cover that in much greater detail soon :)

[@kevman1171]

I find these ships fascinating, the ones that never were. Did you know there was not one, but TWO finished beautiful 30,000grt Swedish American Line Stockholm’s built in the 30’s? So hard to find info on them, they were stunners for sure. Interesting to note they were built in Italy, who would later lose their Andrea Doria to the next Stockholm.

[@MacAdvisor]

I must point out, America did not side with the Allies due to the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US declared war on Japan, but not the countries in Europe. Germany, however, had aligned with Japan and, as a consequence, declared war on the US due in response to the US declaration against Japan. Only in response to the German declaration did the US declare war on Germany. The stand with the Allies was due to Germany's own actions.

[@teutoncross3817]

This is ignoring everything pre-December 1941. First, America had been sending lend lease equipment to aid Britain for months at this point, which, although not a declaration of war, is already choosing sides. Second, America cut off vital trade to the Japanese and this embargo would have starved the newly industrialized Japan. This embargo was put in place because of japan’s territorial expansion, however Japan saw America’s embargo as hypocritical of the US because of their expansion into the pacific (see the Philippines ). The Japanese saw no way out of this material good starvation other than declaring war on the US. Always ask the questions ‘why’ when you see a seemingly irrational action or opinion.

[@seventh-hydra]

I don't mean to be rude, but that's just factually incorrect. The US had aligned with the Allies long before. For example, the US had been sending equipment to the UK for a while. Not just bullets, but full on warships. Even before that, it made sense for the US to align with other democratic nations. And the allies it stood with in the previous war. The way alliances work, by the way, is that if someone declares war on you, your allies declare war on them. Ergo, getting involved with a fight with Japan is also getting in a fight with Germany. Just as if someone attacked Britain or France now, NATO would stand united. FDR's pre-Pearl Harbor wartime plans all revolved around a conflict with Germany, his speeches frequently spoke of the Nazi threat, and it's agreed by most historians that he sought to get involved. Post-Pearl Harbor, the ETO is also where most of the US resources went. The only truth is that Germany's own actions led to it. Their aggressive expansion, alliance with Japan, and anti-egalitarian government made them a prime ideological enemy to the US. This isn't to say anything is "good or bad," it just "is." That's the meaning of being a historian.

[@MacAdvisor]

@@seventh-hydra The US was helping out the UK, but was officially dedicated to neutrality. Much stuff was routed through Canada. While FDR wanted to strongly support the UK, he was constrained by an anti-war Congress. Congress declares war on Japan on Dec. 8, the day after the after the attack, but doesn't declare war on Germany until the 11th and only after Germany's declaration. The attack on Pearl Harbor completely changed the isolationist sentiment in the US, almost overnight. Had Germany not declared war, but stayed out of the Pacific conflict, the might well have been a European war and a Pacific war with little overlap.

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

I have to point out that Germany was under NO obligations to declare war on the United States just because Japan did. The Axis pact was a mutual defense pact, not a mutual agression pact. Up until December 11th when Hitler declared war on the US he seemed to have learned one of the lessons of WW1, that is, keep the Americans OUT. Why he changed his mind is anyone's guess. Maybe he thought the Japanese would help HIM out with his war on the Soviet Union? If that's the case he should have gotten an "I'll do this for you if you do this for me" agreement with the Japanese but no effort like that was made. And the Japanese didn't lift a finger in Asia to help such as attacking Siberia and tying down Soviet forces there. Post-war in the Nuremberg interviews Goering, Ribbentrop, Keitel and Jodl stated they all advised Hitler against declaring war on the US but he wouldn't listen.

[@MacAdvisor]

@@teutoncross3817 I am not suggesting Japan's response was irrational, but it certainly didn't help their position. The attack on Pearl Harbor was, nevertheless, foolish. The US sneaking some food and war materials to the UK and blocking steel imports to Japan is one thing, the US mobilized for total war was another thing entirely. I understand why Japan considered the attack, but not really why they did it given the obvious results. Yes, going up to the biggest, baddest dude on the school yard and hitting in the nose may earn one some street red, but it also gets the sh1t beat out of one. Putin wandering about Ukraine getting his soldiers's @sses kicked is one thing, lobbing a missile at Hawaii would be a very different thing.

[@paullacey2999]

Truly "What Ifs"....Fascinating👍

[@jehoiakimelidoronila5450]

*FIVE* propellers on a ship design that big...?! Never knew of any vessel having 5 props, as far as I know. And fake smokestacks??? This is the 1st time I've become aware

[@hairydonuts6024]

Only just discovered this channel but I'm hooked despite knowing next to nothing about ocean liners. Perhaps, the main reason is it's very well scripted, researched & presented. Nice job. Thank you!

[@deckjacobson4230]

Here's a hypothetical: The nearly complete "Vaterland" is...siezed by the United States after the war as reparations and given to the United States lines (again). She is renamed Leviathan (again).

[@merafirewing6591]

Lmao.

[@num65ku11]

The first picture looks like the type of picture I'd take on my Nintendo 3DS.

[@kee1haul]

If Ancient Architects and Oceanliner Designs got together...

[@Schlipperschlopper]

Dont forget the wonderfull modern and elegant Wilhelm Gustloff / Robert Ley class! These elabourate single class cruise / liner ships were the ships of the future, they might have build them larger and faster for transatlantic service. Did you know that they even planned ships and planes with nuclear power propulsion?

[@giovannirastrelli9821]

They were cruise ships, nothing to do with this topic.

[@Schlipperschlopper]

@@giovannirastrelli9821 Yeah but they were most modern passenger ships of its time!

[@giovannirastrelli9821]

@@Schlipperschlopper Doesn’t matter, it’s not the topic of the video.

[@dexterity___]

For anyone interested, look up the “Strength through Joy” program the Germans created for their working class

[@panther7748]

There might not have been any german super ocean liners, but the stories of some of their "smaller" ships is still quite interesting and even tragic. The "Saint Louis" mentioned in the video was involved in a quite disgraceful and tragic story shortly before the outbreak of WW1. It transported german Jews emigrating (fleeing) from Germany, but no nation wanted to grant them asylum, so the "Saint Louis" had to undertake a thousands of miles long odyssey through the Carribean and back to Europe. Some passengers were finally granted asylum in Britain and France, but some were still murdered in the Holocaust later on. Another story involves the NDL's "Columbus", which had been laid down before the outbreak of WW1 and was only finished in 1924, being the only big ocean liner that remained in german service at the time. In late summer of 1939, she was crusing around in the Carribean when she received the order to sail to a neutral port. After several failed attempts she was interned in Veracruz in Mexico, but was finally given the order to attempt a "breakthrough" to Germany, against the wishes of her captain. Outside of US waters, she was confronted by a british warship and scuttled herself. And then there ate of course the tragic stories of the "Cap Arcona" (also mentioned in the video) and the "Wilhelm Gustloff", a cruise liner build by the Nazis. In April of 1945, the "Cap Arcona" was turned into a prison ship for concentration camp inmates, who suffered from truly hellish conditions, perhaps only comparable to the infamous japanese POW ships. She was then tragically bombed by RAF planes on the 3rd of May 1945, only a few days before the end of the war in Europe. Between 6000 to 7000 camp inmates/prisoners died in the sinking of the "Cap Arcona" and other prison ships that day, many of them burning to death, drowning or being shot by british planes and german soldiers. The "Wilhelm Gustloff" transported thousands of german refugees across the Baltic Sea, fleeing from East Prussia. On the 30th of January 1945, she was sunk by a soviet submarine, resulting in the death of perhaps as many as 9000 (!) people. To this day, this is the deadliest sinking of a single ship in all of naval history.

[@centamangila1217]

Another story concerned Hamburg Sud's Cap Norte. She tried to return to Germany from Pernambuco in Brazil by assuming the name Ancona and flying the Swedish flag. Well, the ruse didn't work - she was captured by a British cruiser and her passengers and crew were interned as POWs for the rest of the war. The name of the British cruiser - HMS Belfast.

[@alexandergroppe448]

Please, please do a "what-if" video of Viktoria! Considering the relentlessness of the Nazi propaganda machine, I wonder what her interiors might have looked like - the contemporary Art Deco, the Neo-Classical (as reflected in Speer's 'New Berlin' city renderings), or a fusion of both. While the Germans have long been known for their mechanical prowess, it would have been a real challenge for them to compete with the likes of the Normandie in terms of aesthetics.

[@johnhooper7040]

e in a similar style to a Nazi era railway dining car I travelled on. A style I described it to someone as Nazi-deco! No doubt the ship's interior would have been full of Nazi symbolism with plenty of portraits of the Fuhrer too.

[@merafirewing6591]

​@@johnhooper7040 I would imagine those being stripped off if she survived intact throughout the war.

[@swiftmirage3461]

Love the video as always, and I'm sure i might not be the only one to mention this but wasn't the Wilhelm Gustloff an ocean liner completed under Nazi Germany? I might be wrong on my Terminology of it being an ocean liner for all I know, that being said a video on its life and fate would certainly be an interesting topic for a future video I think given its the worst maritime disaster in history if my memory serves!

[@Daniel_Huffman]

Surprisingly, despite taking the appearance of ocean liners, the _Wilhelm Gustloff_ and her sister ship, the _Robert Ley,_ were cruise ships. While owned by the German Labor Front, they were respectively managed by Hamburg Süd and HAPAG until the war broke out.

[@xmtryanx]

Gustloff and her running mate Robert Ley were the two first mass market cruise ships! They never really did ocean voyages. Gorgeous vessels!

[@PaulMcElligott]

Small nitpick. The P.1000 was known as the “Ratte” (Rat), not the “Monster.” The P.1500 Monster was a completely different project, basically a Schwerer Gustav railway gun on a tracked chassis instead of rails.

[@philipr.3509]

another nitpick: p1500 never existed and the p.1000 designed by Grote was never called ratte in ww2.

[@mikemancini313]

Germany did build an impressive ship in called the "Berlin" in 1925. The ship later sank in 1945 and it was beached but the Soviets refloated the ship and it continued to sail for over 40 years. The ship was over 60 years old when in 1986, the ship sank again. This time over 400 people died in the black sea.

[@nixops]

I was going to mention her too... Admiral Nakhimov , she really had an eventful career.

[@mikemancini313]

@@nixops Yes. 1986 ended up being a bad year for the Soviet union.

[@trevormillar1576]

Who built the SS St Louis then? The ship in the movie "Voyage of the Damned". It was destroyed in an air raid on Hamburg in 1943.

[@WojciechWachniewski-st1zm]

@@trevormillar1576 Not so fast with destruction. The SL, a sister ship to the MILWAUKEE, HAD BEEN heavily ruined by bombs at Hamburg, but did not go to scrapyard immediately. Hamburgers used the wreck as a... floating hotel for some time. You know, ships do not want to die. By the way, one ship of that 18.000-ton pair had a KDF episode in her career. ♍

[@SamiltonAdventures]

Cheers for this!! If the Vaterland had been completed and used as a troop or hospital ship, maybe the war would’ve gone on a little longer or taken a turn in another direction. Churchill estimated that the Cunard “Queens” shortened the war. I wonder, could Germany have been more successful, if given utility of such ships? Possible food for thought in aid of another “alternate history” episode…

[@davidjones332]

The "Queens" shortened the war because they could move thousands of US troops to Europe quickly and in relative safety. Germany had no comparable need for large-scale sea transport, and if they had tried something spectacular, like a sudden strike to capture Iceland, the chances are that the Royal Navy would have sent them to the bottom in short order.

[@Erikaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

No. It would not have prolonged the war by even a single day. People vastly underestimate how badly outclassed Germany was post-1943.

[@n8pls543]

@@Erikaaaaaaaaaaaaa As well as how utterly doomed the regime's power structure made them, from the start. In a sense, their government was formed of institutionalized corruption and cronyism, which was great for the beneficiaries of it in the short term, but was only ever going to lead to the dramatic collapse that ensued.

[@adriannegrillo8394]

Very nice video. It was quite enjoyable!

[@Jack-tx2ve]

This is a great channel. I am also fascinated by ships. Subscribed.

[@matthewbowen5841]

Mike, you make some awesome videos on interesting topics with tons of quality. For some reason, your comment section seems to attract nit pickers. Keep doing what you're doing buddy!

[@j3dwin]

Keep up the good work!

[@christoffellner84]

Being interested in Naval WWII Warfare, i did realize that the Nazi Government actually planned to convert TS Bremen and TS Europa (TS stands for turbine ship) into Aircraft carriers. But due to the reversal of plans to construct u-boats instead of capital ships and the fear to loose such a capital ship lead to a halt on that (not to mention that one of those turbine ships was lost 1941 to fire anyway). Sooo, would Vaterland II had been finished earlier, i am pretty sure it would have been used for the wareffort and might just have been sunk as other ships were. If it had been lucky, it might have survived the war such as the other TS did, only to be scrapped in the late 50ties. Serving in a country occupied with reconstruction and the growing competition of Airplanes won't feed the needs of such a big vessel. Simple as that.

[@Kaidhicksii]

*That tank looked insane.* 🤯 Really cool to see you do a video on these two liners that never were, as they're among the most fascinating. To give my thoughts on them: Viktoria - whose name I now understand to be German for "victory" and not in reference to Her Majesty the Queen - was easily my favorite of the two and is one of the greatest liners proposed. It's a shame she was never built in some way, shape or form. She looked a _bit_ odd - guess that single giant funnel was just throwing me off a bit - but oh boy she would've been a beast. She almost certainly would've given the United States a run for her money. Vaterland, I'll admit, I'm not really a fan of. Similar reason as to why I'm not crazy about the America either, even though that one was a fine ship and I have the utmost respect for her. The ship was just too small and stout for my liking, and in my opinion, not the best choice to bear the German name for "fatherland" after the original 950' leviathan. On one hand, she and her two sisters (I'm inclined to think they would've been referred to as males like their predecessors, but since I don't know that I'll just stick with she) probably would've been very successful, providing a steady, economical service between Germany and America. But on the other hand, not being world beaters, I doubt they would've stood out against the likes of superliners such as the two Queens and the Normandie. I guess I know what side I'd be on if faced with whether to build a pair of smaller liners or a single superliner. Nonetheless, it was a huge shame she was never completed, especially since she was actually launched. So close. I'd love to see an alternate timeline on what if either one or both ships were built. Preferably Viktoria though. You ought to cover more unbuilt liners like the Super-Oceanic or Theodore Ferris' twin Leviathans someday. :D

[@smittenthekitteninmittens2679]

It looked too big too actually move regardless of engine and would have definitely have gotten bogged down or stuck if it did!!

[@davidmccann9811]

It should, it weighed over a 1000 tons and had the guns of a battleship. Ironically it was called the P.1000 Landkreuzer (Land Cruiser).

[@trailrunnah8886]

Cone of Arc does some great tank videos, and profiled that giant tank in one of them.

[@Ul.B]

You should have seen the monstrous railway plans.

[@stevenmoore4612]

Fun fact Germany holds the distinction of building the first four funneled ocean liner the Kaiser Wilhelm der Große one of four Kaiser-class liners. This led to Cunard building the Mauritania-class and then White Star to then respond with the Olympic-class with Brittanic being the last four stacker to be built. It’s crazy yo think how absolutely monstrous the Amerika would’ve been if the Germans had actually built her. It’s a shame that once again war got in the way of the German shipbuilders from showing their true potential in building such massive ships.

[@Maritime_History]

Uploaded 51 seconds ago! Nice!

[@timorieseler276]

Props for trying to speak german. 👍 Blohm & Voss is more like Blome & Foss. The V sometimes is like F and sometimes like W. In this case F.

[@Maddog3060]

5:22: "If built... deposing the Queen Mary and reigning as the largest and fastest ship at sea for the foreseeable future." Yanno, until the British would have sunk her.

[@jerrycoob4750]

I like to think that in Kaiserreich (an alternate history mod of Hearts of Iron IV where Germany wins WWI) one or even both of these fascinating ships get to see the light of day. Maybe Vaterland II also has one or two sister ships built to replace the Imperator-class?

[@Malbeefance]

Excellent presentation. Well done. To your question: If either or both of these ships were completed prior to the outbreak of WWII, I suspect at least one ship would have made a trans-atlantic trip or two. After that, either hostilities would cause the vessels to be hold up in Germany or used as supply ships for the Atlantic raiders. If the ocean liners were used in the Atlantic, I doubt such noteworthy vessels would escape detection and destruction for long. I can see them interning themselves to avoid destruction and then taken as prizes after the war. If the ships were hold up in Germany, I can see them being used as troop transports on the Baltic. The ships would have a longer service life in this second possibility, but I see their fate as being far worse as the communists would either sink the ships during the fighting as a result of combat or the communists would sink the ships after the war for target practice or break them up for salvage.

[@ninob.]

the communists definitely wouldnt have sunk or scrapped one of them. A great example are the Albert Ballin and Hamurg because they served until the late-70s / early-80s. Both ships were build in the early to mid 20s and both sank in WW2 but were salvaged. The other two Ballin-Class ships were given to the other allied powers so the Deutschland and the New York were scrapped. Four other HAPAG ships that were also given to the soviets and survived until the late 70s and mid-80s and those were build in the late-20s and 30s. Surely the soviets would have taken the completed ships and make them into the ocean liners that were proposed in the 30s and if they were completed they would have sit in the harbour during the war and taken refugees from the east to the west at the end of the war risking to be sunk like other ships that did that job

[@benji299]

Not the video I was expecting to see today but I'm not complaining.

[@jonathanbower863]

Yeeeaaahh such great content! Keep it up Mike Brady! Still waiting for a QE2 video (or is it too new for your tastes?)

[@OceanlinerDesigns]

Cheers Jonathan! No way, QE2 is definitely on the list!

[@blazentoast5356]

I love your videos man. I love the old ocean liners before air travel was a thing. It's great to see all this info on them. Keep it up man.

[@Graham-ce2yk]

A more interesting question is what was Viktoria's planned running mate, these ships were usually built in pairs, so that operators could have ships crossing the Atlantic in both directions (e.g. One would head to the US, the other would head to Gemany.) in the case of the British the whole Cunard/White Star situation complicated things, the loss of the Lusitania also affected this, until the Queen Mary was built in the 1930s Mauritania didn't have a proper running mate since from memory the Aquitania (A good subject for a future video) was not intended as a fast runner.

[@TheModelingNut]

You kind of illuded to this, but it would be fun to do a "What If" video on these ships, like the Titanic one a few weeks back. May be interesting to see what the entire world would have been like if Germany had won, or at least drawed. . .

[@efnissien]

What about the Wilhelm Gustloff? She was Built in 1937 she was in service for about a year, and was 684 ft long. Admittedly she wasn't a trans-Atlantic liner but a pleasure cruise liner.

[@giovannirastrelli9821]

Cruise ship, not an ocean liner.

[@matthewcox6615]

There were three sister ships that NDL built during the Nazi period. They were the SS Scharnhorst, Potsdam and Gneisenau. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Scharnhorst_(1934)

[@jeffrigby189]

A fascinating history and what a beautiful ship the "Vaterland" would have been. I'm curious though, as to why younger commentators always refer to the "Queen Mary" and don't seem to remember the 'Queen Elizabeth" which was slightly larger and of roughly the same speed. It is true that the latter didn't enter the Transatlantic service until after WW2 but when I was a boy, while they were often mentioned together, the "Queen Elizabeth" was possibly the best known as she was largest ship in the world for decades. Certainly they were both well remembered here in Sydney when so many Australian soldiers left for the Middle East on them.

[@OceanlinerDesigns]

In this context it was because Mary was the revolutionary first liner of the pair that took and held the Blue Riband and fired the German leadership up :)

[@verstraxil..-tajikistan]

Aye, Mike, When are you going to make a video on your books by C.O.M. Sir James Bisset, Id love to see more content on the fire of Carnival Freedom! From Harold