Why didn’t they design the Boeing 777 with a side-stick?Funny that you should ask!

[@MrSuzuki1187]

I was a pilot for United when the B-777 was being designed. Our first one showed up at ORD in 1995. However, when it was being desgined, Boeing invited pilots from all of the airlines who were going to buy their plane and asked them how they wanted the cockpit to work. Those pilots universally wanted 2 things that the Aibus did not have. A control wheel instead of a side stick, and the throttles to move in when the autothrottles commanded a change in engine power. Their request was validated after an Air France A-330 crashed at night over the South Atlantic when the least experienced first officer (the captain was in the rest bunk) of the pilots had his side stick controller full back putting the airplane into a stall at about 37,000 feet due to a pitot tube failure. The more experienced pilot coudl not see that, and had no idea why they were stalling. After the crash, they put Sully Sullenberger in a B-777 simulator and asked him if the crash would have happened to a Boeing and he said absolutely not because the expericened pilot would have seen the control wheel fully aft and would have pushed it forward to break the stall.

[@ronrogers]

Might want to look at Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 6231

[@Jamenator1]

Definitely a relevant factor, but its up for debate whether a yoke would have helped. While perhaps less prone to that type of event, yokes are not immune from inadvertent dual control. Just recently some AF pilots in a 777 struggled for control for the better part of a minute during an ILS approach, not realising they were both controlling at the same time. The controls disconnected from each other as per design due to opposing forces, meaning the controls were temporarily moving independently, without the crew realising. A Virgin Australia crew almost inadvertently ripped the tail off an ATR 72 in 2014 after they applied opposing forces in flight, causing the yokes to disconnect and each elevator to deflect in opposite directions at high speed. The resultant forces from the asymmetric elevator exceeded the ultimate load for a brief moment and caused severe damage to the tail. It tore most of the attachment points between the horizontal stabiliser and vertical stabilizer. Luckily it did not fail completely, but the horizontal stabiliser was visibly bent. In addition to the crash which Ron mentioned, here are a few crashes due to stalls in planes with yokes, including a few unrecovered high altitude stalls. Birgenair 301, 757. Colgan 3407, Dash-8. West Caribbean Airways 708, MD-82. Air Algerie 5017, MD-83.

[@wotan10950]

@@ronrogersMy son and I visited that memorial site in Harriman State Park; we live about 15 minutes from the crash site. That catastrophe will always remain in memory because I was a passenger on an American Airlines flight from LGA to BUF at the exact same time. The Northwest was JFK to BUF. My poor mother was lying in bed with the radio news on when she heard that a flight from New York to Buffalo had crashed. She said that she actually levitated from the bed, thinking it was my flight.

[@eugeniustheodidactus8890]

....retired..... call me old fashioned, but I want YOKES, throttles + trim wheels that can easily be seen when moving.

[@DaveP-uv1ml]

Force feedback stick controls have been a thing in the games market a long time now. I even used to fly Microsoft flight sim on the computer years and years ago. Surprisingly it’s taken a long time for this to come into age and be a thing on the commercial side. I see Gulfstream is embracing it wholeheartedly all of their jets going forward are going to have them starting with the G 700 flagship. That though isn’t even required to fix what happened on the Air France they could’ve solved that by simply having a light come on the indicated when that was being used. To Airbus credit, the Air France crash the lessons of that disaster hit the company hard and you will see a lot of that in the design of the A350. It has a great deal of redundancy and alert messages. The way they appear really let you know much more when something like this is going on , it would probably be impossible to repeat the incident in an A350, even with those side controllers

[@bowzist]

I’m new to aviation, currently working on my commercial, I recently discovered you channel and really enjoy your videos, I’m grateful we still have old timers like you around to learn from. Keep them coming. Cheers from Minnesota

[@ronrogers]

Welcome aboard!

[@tomwilson1006]

Ron, tell him you’re NOT an “old-timer” yet! 🤣

[@ronrogers]

🤣🤣🤣🤣@@tomwilson1006

[@eugeniustheodidactus8890]

According to George Carlin, he's just an "old fart".

[@scottbravo3]

Can’t get enough of your videos. I’ve been binging them. Can’t believe I just now discovered you!

[@ronrogers]

Welcome aboard!

[@alexrebmann1253]

My father inlaw worked at Boeing during the development of the 737 in the 60s. He told me that Boeing was considering side sticks in the 737 but airlines were not interested. I have read alot about the air france airbus that crashed in the atlantic and how the side sticks was one of contributing factors in cause of crash.

[@ronrogers]

Yes, I will have a presentation that talks about the side sticks and issues.

[@AaronHarberg]

Ron, did you ever have the pleasure of flying the 757 with United?? Only one flight as a passenger on United in 1996 from Denver to Seattle and it was instantly my favorite aircraft.

[@vikos78]

This, plus the "Dial Input"alarm that did hardly sound, causing the pilot to ignore what the co pilot was doing.

[@fjp3305]

@@ronrogers That would be great

[@ronrogers]

No I didn't, but did fly it in flight test. I get senior on the A-320 and found I could jump directly to the 777 so I did. @@AaronHarberg

[@Pan1man4]

Thank you Ron for sharing your life's aviation experience and other videos. I have followed aviation since I was a 12 year old, I used to write to the then aeroplane manufacturers Hawker Siddley etc and the airlines here in the UK who sent me a lot of material that I used for my high school projects. Nearly 71 and share my interest with my grandsons now and so pleased to have come across your channel. All the best from Warrington,Cheshire, UK.

[@ronrogers]

That is awesome!

[@whitav8]

Ron, I ran the Research Cab at the IASL across from Boeing Flight Test at Boeing Field during the 777 development (1991-1995) and we had a portable side stick that I was supposed to keep "out of the way". We would invite you test pilots across the street and do some simple experiments with it but it was not to be visible otherwise. We were also demonstrating advanced displays (EGPWS on the MFD and forward perspective on the PFD) but EGPWS only made it onto the airliners after the 757 crash near Cali, Columbia.

[@tjanson1]

Sidesticks are better in my opinion because it allows more space, and flying is not like driving you fly with 1 hand so a stick makes more sense you always have one hand on the control and one on the thrust, the main thing I want sidesticks to have is both move when pilots make inputs for better situational awareness and it seems like Gulfstream has figured that out

[@mauricio7501]

I flew 737's, then 787 and now A320. Here goes my 50 cents on boeing vs airbus design: in the 737 it makes sense, it gives a lot of feedback from what the other pilot is doing and also from what the AP is doing. The moving throttles also helped a lot. Now, on the FBW boeing, it's a different story. The yoke is much smaller, and the required movements are much less compared to the 737. You can watch the AP doing a turn and the yoke barelly moves. The inputs are very small, and flying manually, with the boeing FBW logic and the trim reference system thing, I found the yoke very artificial particularly in pitch control, and too 'sporty' with the ailerons. The roll rate was super fast compared to the 737. Then I moved to airbus and honestly the controls are much more pleasant to fly. I think the sidestick and the airbus FBW logic (auto-trim) is way better in controlling the aircraft than the Boeing FBW, being much more precise. There is indeed a penalty not having the sticks interconnected, in particular during training flights. But so far, everybody survived. I don't think it played a big role in the AF447 accident. As far as I know, stall was not even trained in the sim during that time, since an airbus would never stall... like the Titanic would never sink. For me the yoke on modern Boeing FBW aircraft is just a big sidestick. The feedback is minimal, almost irrelevant in a normal flight. I found the elevator feedback to be very artificial. The only advantage would be on training flights. Basically you give small inputs into a computer that is actually controlling the control surfaces and the aircraft path. And for this purpose, the sidestick is much better, much more precise, even with turbulence or gusty winds. with the Boeing FBW logic, the yoke is almost useless in my opinion. Put a sidestick on it's place and it would be much better. Talking about the moving throttles, it certainly helps a lot, but it's logic can also be confusing. Have a look at the Asiana crash in SFO and the Emirates 777 in Dubai. It would never happen in a Airbus. I found the Autothrust logic to be far more simple than the Boeing Auto Throttles.

[@compu85]

You put a lot of care into these presentations. Thanks for sharing!

[@ronrogers]

Glad you like them!

[@grahamstevenson1740]

Coupled sidesticks might well have prevented the AF447 accident. A good idea IMHO.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

And isn't the takeover time ridiculously long? Isn't it like 40 sec to take complete priority? Most tragedys end in less than that.

[@MrMonoTracer]

Well, AF even managed to bring a 777 almost down with opposite yoke inputs….

[@beyondEV]

@@CapitalismSuxx That is for permanent takeover and lockout just pressing it and keeping it pressed gives you priority. remember panicked pilot is probably go buzz it, too. you can even do that if they're coupled (they do uncouple above extreme force, but to my knowledge both flight controls remain active.) so if you're copilot panic's and tries to stall the plane, you have to physically overpower his inputs on the controls. panicked people tend to apply a insane amount of force. The Air France pilots fighting for control of a Boeing over Paris were heard groaning and panting from exertion, while both believing the plane was uncontrollable. In reality the just fought each other. CRM is the actual defense. But it's a difficult to teach skill.

[@herceg6772]

@@MrMonoTracermy thought exactly. It’s not the plane, it’s AF something is wrong with.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

@@beyondEV lol there have been several tragedies where noone kept their cool to press this tiny button for anything more than 2 secs. The Airasia flight where the Capt was doodling in the CB section comes to mind. When he was done doodling he actually remembered to push that button but prob bc things were stressful, he had no concept of how insanely long 40secs would be.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

It is an honour to have you in my youtube, having these lectures! If you ever come to Sweden on your excursions, I'll buy the beer. EDIT: So funny you would mention SAAB, my dream employer!

[@sjnavaid]

being an 18 year old who hasn't even started training for my ppl, this channel is a goldmine

[@roloduarte3100]

True!

[@eugeniustheodidactus8890]

take it to the bank

Thank you Ron for a truly interesting insight! Your knowledge and stories are a real joy to listen to. Being a low time PPL instructor in a little aeroplane and only 300 hours I don't have much to say, but I appreciate the ability to feel the input of a student with the original fly by wire. In Norwegian "wire" means steel cable, so fly by wire has always been a little misplaced term to me! The "following but not controlling" as you mentioned helps detect abrupt input and if repeated helps reveal unwanted techniques. In other words helps me as the instructor to prevent dangerous situations and accelerate feedback to the student. I can only imagine what it is to try and detect a technique or behaviour without direct input or without linked controls. That is where your great experience comes in. For me that is still a long way to go. Thank you for all these various little insights that you give us in your videos. They might be little details and stories of times from the past, but interesting to me who is at beginning of mine.

[@PaulCopp]

Having flown both the B737 and the A320 in that order, my two wishes for the A320 was that the side sticks would be synchronised and the throttles would move, however IMHO in every aspect the A320 is a better tool to operate, and much less fatiguing.

[@boeingav8tr525]

Agreed!

[@MrSuzuki1187]

Paul, see my comments above. You are spot on.

[@PaulCopp]

@@MrSuzuki1187 I would still prefer a side stick as it gives you the space to fill in paperwork, eat your food etc, but I would want them to move together so that you can feel the other pilots inputs. Maybe the technology for this is too expensive, or too likely to fail?

[@PsRohrbaugh]

​@@PaulCopp there was a KZbin video that contemplated this recently with no firm results. Specifically, one of the American cargo airplanes has side sticks with force feedback / coupled movement. Even more - the sticks for the cargo aircraft had the same manufacturer as airbus.

[@abnercordero7093]

Thanks!

[@ronrogers]

Thank you so much!

[@Jeff-tb9kp]

Very interesting. I look forward to hearing your stories about your airbus experience as well as your thoughts regarding strengths and weaknesses vs Boeing

[@ronrogers]

Coming soon!

[@RallyRat]

Actuated side sticks seems like the ideal configuration. You could feel what the other pilot and autopilot are doing. Stick shaker/pusher can be implemented in software as well as things like vibration if both pilots are giving conflicting inputs.

[@KyleCowden]

I met Jim Bede at an aerobatics show while in CAP as an eighth grader (maybe ninth) and even got to sit in the BD-5J. Also saw it fly later. It had a side stick and I remember myself and a couple friends laughing our heads off when we saw "Octopussy". In that movie, Bond was slinging a center stick around like a ping pong paddle.

[@theegg-viator4707]

GAC (Gulfstream) WAS like that (yoke setups), but now it’s all going sidesticks that both simultaneously move for better SA.

[@rogerrees9845]

Great presentation...looking forward to the Airbus presentation now...Thank you...Roger...Pembrokeshire

[@Jim-fp3kt]

Love your content and wise perspective Ron. My perspective: ATR 72, B727, MD80, A320 B75/76, back to the A320. I find that when referring to past aircraft I flew the A320 tops the list. The ergonomics, the automation, the thought processes to redundancy the list goes on. Nothing is perfect however I really think Boeing should have sucked it up and gone side stick. I’m as patriotic as the next guy but I truly believe it’s a better product.

[@mrkc10]

Yes very interesting and informative Ron. Your level of knowledge and background is impressive to say the least. I never knew that about the Airbus side stick controls…not coupled. Yea that would be kinda disconcerting compared to the traditional control column. With your vast knowledge of the 777 from test & evaluation to flying it in scheduled service you certainly make a very interesting discussion. Thank you again.

[@ronrogers]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@rezamostafid8810]

This channel is goldmine even for someone who has completed their training ( 20 years ago ) ...

[@shoersa]

Very informative video. Thanks for posting. Lack of timely feedback from the movement of the OTHER side stick.

[@joemeyer6876]

Good on you for opposing non coupled side sticks.

[@ronrogers]

President of Airbus calls the president of ALPA and asks if all of ALPA hates Airbus, or just Ron Rogers. Will talk about this in a future presentation.

[@stratomech]

The story I got was that most of the Boeing pilots and engineers wanted the 777 to have side sticks. It was Kenny Higgins that made the call to go with yokes and for all of the reasons you gave.

[@novo6462]

Old joke- Airbus decided to design their Aircraft with a sidestick because its originally a French company, therefore the Pilots needs a dinner table 😆

[@megathumper777]

Flown Boeing and Airbus and I agree completely with you….. But the side stick gets my vote for 15+ hours of comfort for the trade off with 20s of terror in the flare 😅

[@rlsmith6904]

An STC for a side stick controller and tray table for the J-3 rear seat might have huge market potential. The gib can’t see anything anyway. I understand guys in back are enthusiastic. The French FA’s are for it, too. The biggest issue is finding +5 vdc on a Cub.

[@jeffmurphree2937]

Very nice and educational video! Keep it coming!

[@ronrogers]

Thank you! Will do!

[@MarKKirkmanAviator]

Space Shuttle sticks (RHCs - rotational hand controllers) were NOT coupled. When one stick moved the other stick DID NOT move. However, the stick inputs from both the Commander and Pilot were “summed”. If you put in 1/4th left roll deflection, and I do the same, the two inputs are added together.

[@ronrogers]

I was told by a Dryden NASA engineer that they were coupled. I didn't really see a reason for it but figured if she was incorrect, someone (like you) would point it out. Thanks.

[@fleetwin1]

Wasn't the lack of feel for what the other was doing with the sidestick a contributing factor to the airbus crash over the ocean? The junior FO was making some bad inputs, but the pilot did not realize it...

[@Nl-nn3ds]

I have always wondered what P-38 pilots thought about a yolk instead of a stick.

[@gzk6nk]

I thought you were going to say that French pilot found the table was handy for his glass of Malbec. 😀

[@RustyorBroken]

Peter @ Mentor Pilot has done a couple videos on this, one from each point of view. In his video theorizing Airbus switching to yokes he mentioned that Boeing concepted both a center stick as well as a side stick for the 7J7. Of course, it never came to be but they at least were considering it.

[@CapitalVideo]

Does the lack of feedback from either pilot position also mean that there is no tactile feel for the forces at play on the aircraft?

[@ManuelFSX]

I just got type rated for 737, flying the 777 is one of my dreams…

[@65gtotrips]

That’s so awesome 👏

[@larrythorn4715]

Wait wait wait, youre telling me if I fly Air France I can order a flight attendant? I've been getting a raw deal flying in the US!

[@johncantwell8216]

I wonder if pilots who have a lot of helicopter hours as well as fixed-wing prefer sidesticks

[@miguelcontreras3953]

I always wonder how pilots adapt or get used to the airbus side stick when changing seats if they are right handed or left handed. I just recently saw on KZbin a video showing an EasyJet FO going through CAPT training in which she was having a hard time during sim training as she was taxing the plane. she was right handed and being a FO for long time and looked shaky even during her 1st check ride as a junior CAPT.

[@ronrogers]

I was a Line Check Airman on the A-320 and I would jump from left to right seats depending upon who I was checking out and really didn't have a problem with it. I flew fighters with the stick in my right hand and flew airliners with the yoke in the left. Also had to trade hands flying the yoke in 727, 777 etc when doing checkouts so you get ambidextrous.

[@PaulCopp]

Never saw it as a problem personally, In any case, even with a yoke, you have to swap hands or it's going to be hard to operate the throttles!

[@miks564]

The sidestick is not used for taxi. I don't understand the example you provide. And precision is not as needed on Airbus. The pilots should give little nudges on the stick. ...computers will deal with the detailed corrections to compensate the little wind variations. It's easy to witness this work by comparing the work of a pilot with the sidestick and the work of all the air surfaces on the wing. ...and then compare it with the work of a pilot landing an analogue aircraft like the 737. Worlds apart

[@johncantwell8216]

I guess those old 707 pilots had it even more difficult, having to start the takeoff roll using the tiller for the nosewheels, and then switch over to rudder-pedal control while coordinating everything else. @@miks564

[@johncantwell8216]

I guess those old 707 pilots had it even harder: they had to start the takeoff roll with their hand on the tiller for nosewheel steering, and then switch to rudder-pedal control. And then do the reverse for landing.@@miks564

[@gerrycorbino66]

One thought I have about the side stick is that if you have two captain qualified pilots in the cockpit one is using his left hand to control the stick and the other is using his right hand. Perhaps I'm overthinking it but with the center yoke in either seat the pilots can use whichever hand they normal use to control the yoke. Anyway, I always enjoy watching your videos because they are so informative and interesting.

[@ronrogers]

You still need a hand on the throttles and that positioning changes depending up which seat you are in.

[@gilesbowman1189]

I've never liked the side stick. I'm right handed and don't have the same control with my left hand. I always feel out of control using my left hand for small inputs.

[@Sreybk]

Unless I was trained on a side-stick from the jump, I don't think I would want one. I would prefer a yoke - which was in the 172 I was learning in. Not sure what it is, but I would rather have something like a steering wheel in front of me. Maybe I'll do a Zoom call on my other channel with my cousin who flies for Jet Blue. My uncle was a captain for UPS from the ground up. He was never in the military or went to college, but he always knew and respected the former military people he flew with and later, his First Officers, which was cool. I think the story might fit my other channel. Good video, as usual, Ron.

[@therealrobinc]

Side sticks feel weird if one is right handed & sitting on the Left seat. Shouldn't it be better in a neutral center stick position like a fighter?

[@abbasrizvi9389]

777 has a beautiful cockpit.

[@edcew8236]

One of my buddies at Boeing worked on the side stick evaluation. He told me that the rejection of side sticks was more a rejection of the specific implementation that was tested rather than a rejection of the concept of side sticks per se.

[@ronrogers]

Yes, I am going to address the hard vs soft limitations design in a future video.

[@DaveP-uv1ml]

Apparently, Boeing favors large displacement controls as opposed to small ones.

[@VideoFlyer]

I would be interested in your perspective on the Boeing vs Airbus control laws. Boeing’s control law returning to the trimmed airspeed like a normal airplane vs Airbus’s constant g. I have flown various Boeings, including the 777, and I have also flown the 330. While I am fine with the 330, I prefer the 777.

[@ronrogers]

I am going to try and put something together on this. I wrote a paper 20 years ago on this subject and it was selected as the best technical paper of the year by the Society of Experimental Test Pilots, and I also won an Av Week Commercial aircraft Laurels award for it.

[@foureyedchick]

"Coming forward with the side-stick": Intro to The Six Million Dollar Man" with Lee Majors.

[@joes6089]

👍He would have been safe with a yoke, like the Bell X1🤣

[@SimonWallwork]

Is there a reason why Boeing couldn't fit coupled sidesticks that move together? It's always seemed to me that this might be the best option.

[@ronrogers]

At the time, there were not any coupled side sticks that were reasonably available.

[@chuckcarmichael7835]

"Support the weight of a French Flight Attendant". Pure Gold.

[@silverdrillpickle7596]

A French Fried Attendant?? Oh my.

[@parrotraiser6541]

Boeing's corporate view might have been an example of NIH syndrome, but there's definitely a valid consideration about keeping both pilots in a common mindstream. The left hand needs to know what the right hand is doing. Implementing that would complicate the sidestick design.

[@GunvaldRacing]

Thank you, this was very interesting and informative! I guess the Saab airplane you flow was Saab 340? If so, what was your impression? Cheers from Linköping Sweden (where the Saab factory is located).

[@ronrogers]

Visited Linköping many times. Enjoyed SAAB. And yes, did flight evals on the 340 and the 2000. Saw the Vasa on the second day the museum had opened!

[@haylieg2780]

Saab 340 still is my favorite turboprop.

[@SgtHulka_III]

enjoying your videos... thx!

[@ronrogers]

Glad you like them!

[@65gtotrips]

What about the ergonomic factor of being a right-handed pilot in the left seat with a left side controller or vice-versa ! - I mean that’s gotta be somewhat of a factor ? I’m personally right handed and wouldn’t feel as confident using the left seated joystick controller as my dexterity is in my right arm and hand. I.E. Fine motor skills - At least with the yoke, one can be either primarily right or left handed in both seats.

[@chuckyluv1314]

Appreciate your channel Sir. Boeing C-17 has sticks. So why do you thing they deviated with this AC? Just wondering. I’ve spent a couple thousand hours in a KC-135A model as a Boom Operator. Loved flying and attained Commercial Instrument rating but haven’t flown for many decades. Thanks!

[@ronrogers]

I have flown the C-17 and it has an interesting center stick that is modeled after the A-4 (high lateral pivot point). Now that you mention it, it is interesting why they went with a stick and not a yoke. I might have to look into that and my notes.

[@chuckyluv1314]

That would be interesting to find out as far as I know the C-17 is sort of an anomaly for Boeing. Thanks again and really enjoy your stories.Reminds me of the old days in the tanker. Did you ever air refuel behind a 135?

[@ronrogers]

Yes, in an F-4.

[@srednivashtar5432]

Surely the reason that the C-17 has a side stick is that it was originally designed by McDonnell Douglas rather than Boeing and so, and Ron points out, wasn’t institutionally tied into yokes? Side sticks are lighter, but more importantly for a military aircraft, its pilots, again as identified by Ron, will be used to using sticks throughout the training regime that put them in the C-17 cockpit in the first place. Hercules being a different kettle of fish, as it was designed pre-side stick era, and the J model just followed on from that for commonality. If it was designed today, I’d like to bet it would have side sticks.

[@ronrogers]

The C-17 has a center stick, at least the one I flew did. It is based off of the A-4 center stick.@@srednivashtar5432

[@RipRoaringGarage]

That was always my issues. Why doesnt Airbus connect the two side sticks? Ideally mechanical, but even electrical. You eliminate a very sensitive piece of bio-hardware, and thats human tactile sensation. Its not very pro CRM if you ask me.

[@ronrogers]

I agree and now it is technically more easy to connect the side sticks. Back then it was more difficult and of course, they will not go back and change anything.

[@RipRoaringGarage]

@@ronrogers Sadly, thats the case too often. They dont even see the upside, from a marketing stand point. It would be well spent dollars do come up with that system, as improved safety, and even retrofit kits for older aircraft. But like you point out, those Toulouse boys sure get weird about their planes.

[@noyfub]

It was interesting & informative.

[@stephenbritton9297]

Didn’t Gulfstream come out with a feedback joystick?

[@ronrogers]

Yes

[@The_Touring_Jedi]

I am not pilot, had once dream to be and know a lot about flying and mechanics. I have all possible licences for vehicles and boats(yachts) there is out there. One thing is in my bucket list. To go to Russia and have that Stratospheric jet Flight which they offer with Mig-29.

[@williampage622]

Is the Lear Jet picture reversed the door appears to be on the right side?

[@ronrogers]

Yes, unfortunately it was a slide that I inadvertently copied backwards.

[@N.California]

N.Cal: Not a pilot (48), to me that side stick looks dangerous. Maybe old habits do die hard, but my whole life seeing movies and knowing the standard has always been that control device being right dead center in front of you, between the legs, and centered on the body is a natural place to post up and take control. Plus, a person can use either R or L hands from either side of the cockpit.

[@boeingav8tr525]

Not sure you want to admit you’re friendly with Randy Babbit 😉

[@richarddastardly6845]

Wow, wish I was an A320 first officer 🧑‍✈️✈️

[@jamesgraham6122]

Absolutely agree.. a very valid concern.. as was adequately demonstrated by the crew of AF447. I can imagine though, a French pilot preferring a food tray over control of the aircraft :

[@cluelessbeekeeping1322]

Do you think they'll ever adopt a side stick?

[@ronrogers]

Not in my lifetime.

[@cluelessbeekeeping1322]

@@ronrogers 'Nother question.... The 737...think they'll ever make a Ground Up 737 (replacement?) One from scratch? That thing is starting to look bazaar with proportions...rudder, wheels, wings... It's like, build a new one, YO, you've gotten you're money's worth out of the tooling from that one. Actually...what do you think they'll make next? Which plane will be their next all new plane (just speculation, just your 2 cents worth)?

[@JoeMarler58]

Thanks for the informative material. However, I was not aware the US Space Shuttle control sticks were coupled so as to provide feedback between Commander and Pilot. Today, both Collins Aerospace and BAE Systems have separate "active sidestick" products that provide coupled force feedback between the sticks. During the development of the Space Shuttle control system, I thought that technology was either unavailable, perceived to incur additional failure modes, or thought unnecessary due to rigorous astronaut training. Related to this is the Airbus passive sidesticks do not have a stick shaker or stick pusher to provide feedback of impending stall. I believe the new BAE and Collins sidesticks can provide shaker/pusher functionality. But for those wondering why active sidesticks are not more widely used, those feedback systems have additional failure modes. It is not unknown for a false stick shaker activation to happen, on both yoke and mechanical control sticks. There was a debate on the 737 Max MCAS case about whether to provide a cutout switch for spurious stick shaker activation. A similar scenario could theoretically happen with spurious activation of coupled sidesticks. Active sidesticks in general seem good, but all factors must be carefully considered.

[@ronrogers]

Exactly, and I intend to talk about these issues in a future presentation.

[@beyondEV]

Sidestick input could be shown in a different way. E.g. light bars which show direct and strength of the input. Including Programming to warn the other pilot by some flashing light if there is either a extremely prolonged input or a extremely strong input. same way, could be useful to get feedback from the plane.

[@JoeMarler58]

​@@beyondEV On Airbus, that feature already exists. If both pilot and co-pilot make conflicting inputs, a warning light in front of each pilot labeled "sidestick priority" comes on, and every five seconds, an audible warning "dual input" happens. The pilot or co-pilot can take over by pressing the "priority takeover" switch on their sidestick. If that button is depressed for 40 seconds, it locks out the sidestick of the other pilot. Despite these features, accidents like Air France 447 have happened. That said, the A320 initially didn't have those features, but I've talked to A320 captains who flew then, and they never had any issues. This area involves the intersection of training, suboptimal human behavior in high stress conditions, and the human/machine interface.

[@jibeneyto91]

As both a pilot and aeronautical engineer, I don't understand why nobody went with a coupled sidestick solution yet. It seems like the best combination of ergonomics (tray table and such) and pilot-monitoring-in-the-loop, receiving feedback on what the other guy is doing; the best of both the Airbus (engineer) and the Boeing (pilot) worlds.

[@tristantriton8115]

I believe Gulfstream Aerospace already have. Unless you're referring to commercial airliners.

[@BobbyGeneric145]

G700 active sidesticks.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

The space shuttle has coupled side sticks so there is no good reason for Airbus to continue with their uncoupled ones. What I have read is that Airbus just wanted fewer things to go wrong. Idk, it's weird. The space shuttle had many problems but the sidestick wasn't an issue.

[@miks564]

@@CapitalismSuxx The reason is that it doesn't make much of a difference. But I agree it's nice to have and I've read somewhere Airbus is going to adopt it. However, with active sticks or yokes, we still don't know if the feedback is from the aircraft or from the other pilot, unless they opt to only provide feedback from the other pilot. There was a dual input incident with an Air France 777 in 2023 (EDIT: April '22) or so, proof that what matters is clear crew communication and team work.

[@beyondEV]

@@miks564 the feedback could be visual. so you could have like light bars (more light on the axis light up, more input / feedback from plane.) this would allow to show both separately. especially with a hud this could be helpful. otherwise it may rather contribute to stress, as it's on more thing to keep your eyes on. on the other hand, you could introduce a warning to the other pilot, if on pilot makes any huge input (with direction of input). one of the major factors also seems to be the startling effect. that's hard to simulate... when training for a emergency. but every now and then, put the pilots to sleep in the simulator and have them wake up to the blaring of the master caution alarm. coming out of sleep their brain likely will not remember that this is only a simulation.

[@mumblbeebee6546]

“Not invented here” is a powerful driver in businesses around the world :) But the feedback argument sounds very reasonable to me. However, I would have thought that by now that would all be just easy to replicate with actuators?

[@757MrMark]

Not to mentiopn, UAL was a 'kickoff' customer for the 767 & 777

[@friedtomatoes4946]

What I don't understand is why we don't have force feedback on the side sticks. It's like everybody just sleeps on it despite it being such an easy addition

[@ronrogers]

I am going to talk about that but it has a number of issues.

[@cornucopiahouse4204]

Very very happy they didn’t!

[@bobf354]

..."we want to be seen as a leader," no matter how antiquated that makes us look. I've flown both :B- 727, 737-200, 300, 400, and Airbus: 319,320,321 and AB 330-300 and 200. The only time you might ever wish for a yoke was during strong crosswinds, and usually by then they were out of limits for everyone anyway. If both pilots were on the stick, you got a very loud "Dual Input", in fact all the alerts on AB are attention getting. With Fly-by-wire tech there is no need to mechanically connect the sticks, the whole purpose is to save weight, plus at this level of flying pilots should be aware of who is flying ie: "I have the aircraft-you have the aircraft".

[@ronrogers]

That warning can be masked. Air France Flight 447.

[@AaronHarberg]

The first thing that goes in a stressful situation is our hearing though.

[@raviator9443]

Wait a minute, isn’t that an A-26 Invader? Not a B-26…?

[@ronrogers]

I remember there was some discussion of its exact lineage but I'm not sure if there was ever an agreement on that!

[@raviator9443]

Copy, so maybe there was both?

[@joes6089]

A is Attack-26; B is Bomber.@@ronrogers

[@fjp3305]

I think it was a mistake by Airbus not having the sidesticks coupled.

[@maxenielsen]

2.5 second response to large input on an Airbus? That really surprises me.

[@ronrogers]

takes a while to get that much mass moving.

[@777FreakyD]

The people in AFA447 wish the A330 had a coupled pilot control.

[@miks564]

There's a recent Air France 777 (2022-04) with a Dual Input incident. The pilots were fighting each other believing they were fighting the plane. What makes the difference is not the interface, is CRM. Communication, team work. And besides the FO could have taken the priority control from the other.

[@eugeniustheodidactus8890]

Ron, what's your opinion of BOEING these days ? For me, the MCAS debacle has shown me that they cannot be trusted. _( I did listen to a recording of a Boeing exec addressing our union where one VP said that they expected an MCAS event every 1.5 million miles flown.... and tragically.... they were right! )_

[@ronrogers]

My opinion is they were once a great company.

[@Iliketoboard]

Your Lear picture is backwards. 😉

[@ronrogers]

yes it is!

[@brooklyndrive]

Thanks Ron, maybe air France 447 could have been prevented...at times the side sticks were getting opposite inputs and there was taking over of control

[@ronrogers]

I will talk about that one.

[@dcxplant]

Coupled side sticks is the way to go. Too bad for Boeing's. I'll probably stay on the 320 fleet than fly with a parking meter between my legs.

[@miks564]

Because old habits die hard?

[@FitzArias]

I see this more as Boeing wanting to keep its own identity by leaving the yokes on. You see past Boeing classic planes, and their yokes all look similar. Both A and B have their own individual design touches.

[@JetPro11]

10 years flying an A330/A340, 22 years B737, 767, 777 and 787. Airbus side stick controller and their auto throttles are vastly superior. Throttles that don’t move - what matters is the airspeed (IAS or Mach) and vertical speed. WRT to the AF accident, that is basic flying skills, or lack thereof. Attitude and power, regardless of side stick or throttle position. Boeing - Not Invented Here. Don’t get me wrong, Boeing makes a fantastic product but their pride prevents them from acknowledging that Airbus and Bombardier do it better with a side stick.

[@Slatsovrspeed]

Common type certification

[@jppjames]

The 777 yokes are not mechanically connected to the control surfaces and the only way to monitor what the autopilot or other pilot is doing is through force feedback. If Boeing had put a side stick in the 777 they could have utilized the same force feedback system the yokes use. Airbus could add this to their sticks today if they wanted to. The reason Boeing uses yokes on their fly-by-wire aircraft is 100% tradition and pride and 0% system limitations.

[@deanc.5984]

Boeing use to be great from WW2 thru the 1999. Lately they stopped listening to the test pilots & listened to the stockholders & accounts. I'll never fly in a 737 Max, to many deaths & accidents.

[@anthonyvallillo422]

Boeing listened to pilots!

[@fishyfish7042]

lol french pilot was right.

[@brenthassler5917]

I don’t normally comment on videos - but I appreciate your content and just wanted to say I hope your address and phone number have changed from those business cards. You never know who wants to use that personal information to make your life miserable.

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for your concern but all those numbers are long dead. Oh, the Boeing ones might get you somewhere but they would say "Ron who?" The telemarketers and scammers already have my real numbers.

[@TLSFC5050]

Real airplanes have a yoke (set aside single and tandem seat)

[@cab6273]

Support the weight of a French flight attendant? How could he possibly know that?

[@PelenTan]

If I were dictator for a day, side-sticks in their current iteration would be something I would ban on any commercial aircraft.

[@miks564]

Sidesticks are fine even without feedback. There was a dual input incident in April 2022 with a 777 (Air France) google it. The best solution for interfaces is CRM. Proper communication.

[@therealrobinc]

Side sticks not moving in-sync as a visual confirmation was a bake-in disaster.

[@gilesbowman1189]

Because it's a real airplane...

[@bobcfi1306]

Interesting. As a CFI I always assume the other guy ( no matter how many hours they have) is trying to kill me.

[@ronrogers]

Very good assumption! Many have tried with me!

[@wearemany73]

I’m not a fan of the side-stick

[@buckwheat1070]

Because men like to fly airplanes. Others fly Airbus game controllers.