Why do big creatures live longer? | Geoffrey West | Big Think

Why do big creatures live longer?
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Scientists have observed that in nature, all things scale with size in a way that is mathematically predictable.
Similar scaling laws hold for things like growth and lifespan. As theoretical physicist Geoffrey West explains, larger mammals generally live longer because of the inverse relationship between body size and the rate at which cells are damaged.
By having this theory of scaling laws, “you can determine what the parameters are, the knobs that you could conceivably turn to change that lifespan,” says West. Instead of living to be 100 years old, humans could someday hack our cells to last for two centuries.
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GEOFFREY WEST:
Geoffrey West is a theoretical physicist whose primary interests have been in fundamental questions in physics and biology. West is a Senior Fellow at Los Alamos National Laboratory and a distinguished professor at the Sante Fe Institute, where he served as the president from 2005-2009. In 2006 he was named to Time’s list of “The 100 Most Influential People in the World.”
Geoffrey West is the author of “Scale: The Universal Laws of Life, Growth, and Death in Organisms, Cities, and Companies”, find it at amzn.to/2UpdHi4
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TRANSCRIPT:
GEOFFREY WEST: All things scale in a very predictable way and they scale in a way that's non-linear. We developed this very elegant theory that what these scaling laws are reflecting are in fact the generic universal mathematical and physical properties of the multiple networks that make an organism viable and allow it to develop and grow. I think it's one of the more remarkable properties of life actually. Just taking mammals, the largest mammals, the whale, in terms of measurable quantities, is actually a scaled up version of the smallest mammal, which is actually the shrew. They are scaled versions of one another. If you have this theory of scaling laws, you can determine what the parameters are, the knobs that you could conceivably turn to change that lifespan. So it's a fantastic effect, it's a huge effect.
If you have this theory of networks underlying these scaling laws, manifesting themselves as scaling laws, you first ask, you know, is there a scaling law for lifespan? Every time you double the size of an organism, you would expect to double the amount of metabolic energy you need to keep that organism alive. Quite the contrary, you don't need twice as much metabolic energy. Systematically you only need roughly speaking 75% as much. So there's this kind of systematic 25% savings. Metabolic rate simply means how much energy or how much food does an animal need to eat each day in order to stay alive. Everybody's familiar with that as sort of roughly 2000 food calories a day for a human being. So here's this extraordinary complex process, yet it scales in a very simple way. Life span also increases following these quarter power scaling laws.
The scaling of these quantities is determined by the constraints of flows in networks. Those flows, they are dissipative, which simply means they involve wear and tear. Just as there's a lot of traffic going back and forth on the roads, and those roads wear out, they have to be repaired. And so it is, the traffic through our multiple network systems produce damage. The reason a large animal lives longer than a small one is because the metabolic rate per unit mass or per cell, gets systematically smaller, the bigger the animal corresponding to these quarter power scaling laws. So less damage is done at the cellular level the bigger the animal. When a given fraction of unrepaired damages occur, the system will become non-viable, that is it can no longer be sustained. That gives you a calculation of maximum lifespan. If you were to do the best you possibly could, this is as long as you could possibly live for a given size of mammal. And if you do that, you can understand where roughly speaking this hundred years for a human being comes from. More importantly, what could you do to make that go from a hundred to 200, for example? And there's two pieces of that, one is you could decrease, of course, the wear and tear or you could increase the repair. If you think about the damage that is occurring from metabolism, one way we could decrease damage is decrease the amount of food we take in. It may not be so pleasant in terms of your lifestyle but this would predict that you live longer. There have been some controversial experiments on monkeys...
To read the full transcript, please visit bigthink.com/videos/why-big-c...

[@TheContrariann]

I like the new look of Big Think 👍 But please use DARK BACKGROUND as, 1. It goes easy on the eyes 2. Is good to watch at night, as most people use KZbin after work at night. 3. Gives better contrast 4. Even subtitles are visible against dark background DON'T USE WHITE📵 USE DARK BACKGROUND !!!☑

[@Monkey80llx]

Or change your screen to night mode?

[@TheContrariann]

@@Monkey80llx Well, it is, Dark background behing the man talking in the video !

[@aperture0]

@@Monkey80llx That's pretty dumb

[@phantomski1]

Lower your brightness ig

[@dahliafenr]

Simple: They have more hit points of course.

[@sushanalone]

Better heals too like Horde!

[@AdrianColley]

More time to accumulate spare Phoenix Downs.

[@michaelreich9714]

Mollusks are dying en masse in Canada. Hmm...."Hit Points". But what is the effect on the underlying biology. This could profoundly effect the "Hot Pocket" food chain. Surely a Gamer would know.

[@user-fw3tz5ns5s]

This old man's voice is full of wisdom.

[@AznVinc3nt]

Big Think: big animals live longer tortoise: heh

[@The1stHomosapien]

i have a tortoise the same age as me, 36. she still looks young and will out live me i guess. they say tortoises out live their owners.

[@Benderhino]

@@The1stHomosapien it's hard to treat a tortoise if it gets sick tho

[@michaelreich9714]

@@The1stHomosapien Just keep yourself & the tortoise away from Roundup. Poison is poison.

[@masternobody1896]

its turtle lol

[@rafaelrp07]

Tortoises have very low metabolism. It actually fits theory if you consider this...

[@simpl51]

Very interesting approach, and i feel there is more to learn in the details, the exceptions. For instance,within a species, you might expect this to show up clearly, but dogs work the other way, small breeds living twice as long as large ones. Or parrots, which can live up to 100 years, although birds have high heartbeats and fast metabolism.

[@maxsmart99]

In theory it’s a good theory but lots of exceptions to the rule

[@tommyls4357]

@@maxsmart99 Yea I agree. It's confusing because there are way too many exceptions. I googled for animals with largest life spans, and I don't really see a trend that larger the animal, the longer it lives.

[@tommyls4357]

I do like his theory on the consequence of global warming that mainstream science doesn't talk about.

[@booksgaming1426]

@@tommyls4357 You have to think of it a little differently than constantly looking for exceptions - rather, look for averages rather than tortoises and lobsters. Rhinos, giraffes, gorillas, elephants, whales, cetaceans, humans, large trees and plants, large shark lifespans, etc. Compare these creatures to their smaller cousins in the same order and they almost universally live longer, with the determining factor being size. Judging within a species is probably a bad example, because when you shrink something like a dog through breeding, the "lanes of traffic" and potential for cellular damage may yield different proportional results than from natural evolution, which might follow something like the 75% rule more closely.

[@Redmanticore]

it is factually false. sea creatures that have achieved biological immortality are very small. examples: hydra species. hydrozoan species Turritopsis dohrnii and Laodicea undulata. scyphozoan species Aurelia. larvae of skin beetles. some micro-organisms, like some endoliths have extremely long lives. in August 2013, researchers reported evidence of endoliths in the ocean floor, perhaps millions of years old, with a generation time of 10,000 years. some Actinobacteria found in Siberia are estimated to be half a million years old. in July 2020, marine biologists reported that aerobic microorganisms (mainly), in "quasi-suspended animation", were found in organically poor sediments, up to 101.5 million years old, 68.9 metres (226 feet) below the seafloor in the South Pacific Gyre (SPG) ("the deadest spot in the ocean"), and could be the longest-living life forms ever found. and we are not yet even talking about plants and sponges.

[@MonCadre]

I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about exceptions to this rule, like the naked mole rat and bats. Both have amazingly long lifespans for their size and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with their metabolic rates.

[@iamalsolegend]

Naked mole rates aren’t homeotherms, so I would think they do have different metabolic rates.

[@wilhelmsarasalo3546]

Small dogs tend to live longer than big dogs, I think.

[@HJ-yk8hd]

That's what I heard too XD

[@mikesimonian484]

Absolutely correct.

[@fitprotunes]

This is true...think its the same for humans

[@phantomski1]

Wouldn't that (hypothesizing/guessing) it be because dogs were usually much much larger before they underwent selective breeding? So their dna and whatever was made for a different and larger body? Might be a dumb theory please don't make fun of me 😅

[@mimovil8730]

Geoffrey West is such an interesting thinker - I find his thoughts and work on cities fascinating.

[@trickyd499]

good talk!

[@iseriver3982]

This is a great video. How you have more from Geoff!

[@metaverseplayer]

Big think, you’re awesome!

[@fburton8]

Great talk. The speaker reminds me of R McNeill Alexander.

[@davidregi7571]

Damn. A good content after school long time

[@viyusavery248]

But most animals share the same/similar OVERALL heartbeat count in their lifetime Elephant Shrews and elephants have about 1 billion heart 💓 beats for their entire lives even though the shrew lives maybe a week(s) and an elephant for decades Makes you really think

[@justindie7543]

@@indira.creates Not really, by this logic, a shrew would be like Neo in the matrix, able to dodge bullets due to it experiencing life over 5000x faster.

[@haghendowdy4750]

@@justindie7543 Indira never said nor implied experience of time was directly correlated with heartbeats here so it seems you're the one taking the illogical leap here

[@nomadpotato]

6:38 😔

[@antonyarulprakash3435]

In experiment results will be go on changing. simply We can get some new properties in each❤️🙏🏼

[@88HaZZarD88]

It seems like there is a Trade-off Live Longer or Live Stronger Not sure if I would want to lower my metabolic rate. I think we need to find a way to repair ourself.

[@enieh112]

Thermodynamics.. The thing that decides how much heat can be stored in your body.. Larger battery = more heat energy to fuel cell regeneration = greater longevity. This is my take on this question 😄

[@krishnaveganathar]

The slower an animal breathes the longer it lives. It’s called the law of inverse proportions.

[@lauravastag8170]

Yes.... yes it does ❤️🌎

[@davidregi7571]

Then why lions live shorter than us?

[@sacdaabdurhman]

Just because you failed at accomplishing something, doesn’t mean you’re a failure as a person.sharing some love from small KZbinr

[@Human-wg5ed]

the edits in this video go hard

[@badtothebone7613]

Interesting. Question: Why do certain shark and turtle species live far longer than a whale?

[@mtscisage]

because they are cold blooded and that factors more than the body mass its much more reduction in metabolism ehen you are cold blooded

[@badtothebone7613]

@@mtscisage thank you!

[@iseriver3982]

'if you have this theory of scaling laws' The best thing about biology is that it's laws are constantly broken. Naked mole rats, Greenland sharks, octopus, humans! So many animals that buck physical trends, life finds a way! (apart from the octopus, I put octopus up their because they normally live a year or two. They're the annuals of the animal world)

[@sirdopaminesjournal3292]

What about giants (gigantism in humans) that tend not to live long? And the Galapagos Giant Tortoise, for example, live to be hundreds of years old,.

[@user-fe2oh8oj2u]

I wonder if it would work on humans. If I am not mistaken, currently biggest humans actually live short lives whereas most of people living long are short or average at best. Maybe because biggest" humans are more like an "anomaly" for our species so our bodies are not yet designed for such "anomalies" ?

[@MsKoffeinjunky]

Maybe it has to do with walking upright. The heart on a taller human always has to pump harder to lift the blood to the height. Most other animals get bigger horizontally wich would not increase pressure on the heart that much.

[@elinope4745]

Yes, smaller humans who eat less food. 1200 calories per day extends lifespan.

[@user-fe2oh8oj2u]

@@elinope4745 , I agree that eating less helps. But saying "eating less extends lifespan" is technically wrong. I think it is more correct to say that "eating less damages you less so you can live longer".

[@user-fe2oh8oj2u]

@@MsKoffeinjunky , interesting theory. Definitely makes sense.

[@elinope4745]

@@user-fe2oh8oj2u actually it damages you more but deprived the body of resources needed for creation of new cells, so that they repair old cells instead of replacing them.

[@stephm4047]

So since I am quite bigger than my sister, I should live longer. 🤔

[@PriyankitaPant]

Most likely she’ll outlive you.

[@roydeisel1287]

@@PriyankitaPant depends how relaxed you are but fundamentally ladies are deadly calm and collective these days. They are so much mentally stronger than men, go girls, it's about time!

[@johnbush5325]

David Sinclair's work shows that despite scaling differences between species, within a species the smaller members have an advantage in terms of longevity. But, none of that might matter, stay healthy for as long as possible and we might live in an era where we enter a sort of amortal escape velocity. Because if we in the next 30 years develop tech that increases our lifespan by 30 years, that's thirty more years to develop more tech to push it out 100, and that's 100 more years to push it out 1000, etc. And since text now days advances at exponential rates, we might just be the generation to hit the lip and get pitted into that pocket. So eat healthy, workout, and vote for progressive healthcare in the meantime.

[@AG-cl8pw]

Do you mean to say that your sister and yourself are from two different species?

[@jimmytimmy3680]

@@johnbush5325 I was reading an article the other day that scientists estimated that the maximum human lifespan possible was 200 years.

[@mathieubarnes5324]

I genuinely thought the theory of relativity and time perception would have had something to do with it. I mean turtles live to be very old, but their size varies, and I'm sure their perception of time is dramatically different from that of a hummingbird. Far from being a scientist though, just a daydreamer. Haha! Very interesting video.

[@ineedtoeatcake]

As someone with an associates in physics, I’ll say that because we aren’t considering objects traveling near the speed of light relative to each other or large differences between the strengths of gravitational fields, neither special nor general relativity would be helpful for understanding why larger animals tend to live longer than smaller animals.

[@karabomothupi9759]

What's disturbing is not just your hypothesis but also that there are 4 people who agree with you.

[@davidekdal7190]

@@karabomothupi9759 lmao

[@ineedtoeatcake]

@@karabomothupi9759 You are easily disturbed.

[@eerohughes]

They have a slower metabolism

[@capedeh8225]

dude ... you sound like saruman , you should be a voice actor

[@littlevoice_11]

Immortal giants are clearly the next longevity obsession!

[@danielpalacios4848]

Wouldn’t it be true that people in the north live longer? Why do they come to Florida?

[@iratepirate4756]

That's the people who don't watch the Big Think and see what's going on

[@danielpalacios4848]

@@gorgthesalty oh okay I missed that. So doing sports is going to make me live less? Or would our cooling system working at its best be what’s best for us? Sweating and regulating temperature?

[@danielpalacios4848]

@@iratepirate4756 no I do my own big thinking. The premise and the theory were vastly different. Good premise. And the theory was crap

[@13Hangfire]

Unless you're a Great Dane...

[@ashr2526]

Not long left until life ceases to exist. Wonder if outer weirdly beings will find our ruins.

[@danielpalacios4848]

Doubt. Life is impossible to stop. Life is drifting away from our planet seeding the future planets. You have no power to declare life will end anytime within a reasonable amount of time.

[@ashr2526]

@@danielpalacios4848 I have no power, but the understanding that our planet is finite, and the human condition is recklessly emotive. It’s not a question of if, but when. I agree I can’t give a time as I’m not familiar with all the variables, don’t think anyone is realistically. Maybe this century, if I was betting man.

[@jomini8329]

Still, small dogs love longer then big dogs. Just example.

[@tinapatterson9234]

So... why is it that a parrot can outlive a human but a human can outlive an elephant?

[@priyashsharma5975]

ok

[@gloriaroma-sandiegorealest4037]

Each big creature lives longer, YET,single cell organisms as a group live for millennia, unchanged. That can’t be said for individual large species.

[@atlasbailly5439]

lots of research shows that metabolism is only connected to lifespan because of third variables

[@ratatouillerajowalo4971]

Going with the temperature of Africa based on it's geographical location, I can now safely say why the life expectancy of us Africans is that low

[@Jorge86295]

Smaller breeds of dogs all live longer than the larger ones. Macaws and lobsters can both life as long as an elephant can.

[@Sondergarden]

So cold showers and fasting?

[@RankinMsP]

So I can carry on eating EVERYTHING? 👀

[@GrabaPL]

Great, again someone get ahead with my theory... :( :D

[@scruffypugs1963]

you heard it hear first, big think said that size matters lol

[@MartinLichtblau]

So the less our body has to heat or cool itself, the longer our lifespan.

[@MartinLichtblau]

So, regulate your indoor temperature and dress properly so that you body doesn't have to expend energy for cooling or warming?

[@sathyaki]

That's what she told.

[@phantomski1]

Turtle/tortoise

[@TheMitchyevans]

Why do big dogs live shorter?

[@derp8575]

What about dogs?

[@celisachoo7900]

Why do some birds live longer than humans? Birds are smaller than humans…🤔

[@samellaclemente]

Birds are not mammals

[@celisachoo7900]

@@samellaclemente Well, this guy is saying that bigger statures live longer. In that case, I mentioned bird. What’s to you! Okay, then, mammals to mammals, Japanese people are smaller statures and mammals, they are known to live a longer life than big statured American.

[@ineedtoeatcake]

1) Do people in colder climates live longer? 2) Exercising uses more energy that needs to be generated with more food. Do the benefits of exercise outweigh the detriment of greater food intake?

[@benzykaram]

They don't worry about the middle class status quo.

[@TorrentsNicolas]

So we are messing with the metabolism of the Earth.

[@longcastle4863]

Macaws?

[@jordisaura6748]

Parrot

[@kingMadnus]

Peinguins are Seals ?

[@zeyad333ify]

Second

[@mehulrajgor6441]

Big think - size matters Random women's - offcourse it matters 😂

[@Plantandpeoplecarer]

The oldest Great Dane in the world is 7!!!!!! Only 7

[@KushMyCologneee]

Questionable theory

[@naeemtull2026]

Let me pack on the lbs

[@eng.minanagynasr]

Hahahaha .. make no sense when looking at : Elephants vs Tortoises

[@coda5934]

F

[@tarcioandree]

Bruh, and people are trying to lose weight so they can live longer...

[@Plantandpeoplecarer]

Except dogs! The only animal that lives shorter lives the bigger they are!!

[@evilfluff6634]

But with global warming one must look to temperature and spices. Like how many spices live before the ice age and how many died because of the ice age? Global change is not good for any spices that can’t adapt. If you reduce CO2 what about the plants? They need it to live and we need the plants to live. And carbon is the building block of all live on earth. Some trees like the giant red wood need fire for their seeds pods to open their bark is so thick to protect the tree from fire. And we as humans hunted pigeons so much if you was to go back in time 200 years and look at a flock of pigeons flying by it would take a day. The earth is out of balance we need to look at a way to balance it and not for global warming. Most north American predators numbers are to low to keep their pray numbers in control. And I love technology but that is doing more damage to the earth than a model T Ford with all the chemicals and poisons used to make the parts and batteries don’t forget cutting down trees to put up wind generators and solar farms. Plant a tree rise some pigeons grow a garden something. Don’t reduce reduct CO2.

[@tomsawyer8525]

Big animals may live longer but big people do not.

[@johngreene0129]

I'd be interested to know why this size advantage doesn't work regarding people with gigantism, nearly all of whom have shorter lifespans than average sized humans.

[@keishakiger8541]

That was my thought as well

[@Name-ib7wu]

Gigantism causes health problems.

[@kibetronoh2376]

Elastic limit.

[@phantomski1]

Humans were not meant to be that way, if the human dna was adapted to gigantism then maybe

[@ryanmc5315]

These are so knowledgeable..one video a day keeps dumb people away!

[@hatem4074]

Big think tend to lives longer than small think.

[@Kristers_K]

Along with exercise and proper sleep, our diet is crucial in prolonging our lifespan. Vegans in general live longer and are a lot healthier, at least those who focus on whole foods and not processed junk food. Populations who eat no animal products, or almost none, have the lifespan of above 100 years and they don't have a focus on any particular nutrients. Whole plant foods, particularly greens, herbs and spices, as well as fruit and vegetables, have a lot of phytonutrients which ''fight'' free radicals responsible for damaging our DNA, faster shortening of telomeres and thus faster aging. Albeit, even if we would achieve 200 years, which is plausible if our lifestyles were ''perfect'', so to speak, there would still likely be a limit without technological intervention. That being said, phytonutrients can increase the length of telomeres, thus increasing how many times a cell can divide and with enough understanding of genetics, you could potentially reverse aging. All the information already exists within our genes, it's just that we don't have understanding of it...yet, we don't have the ''key'' for the lock.

[@elinope4745]

They sleep more, a lot more. They don't gain waking hours.

[@HomersIlliad]

Ahh, so this is why your metabolism slows down as you gain weight.

[@sushilsubedi343]

seems like your mom's gonna live for 200 years

[@scribeofsolace]

Oof 😥

[@alpha_ray_burst]

So but like... how long does a blue whale live? That's all I wanted to know.

[@The1stHomosapien]

probably a few years at least. id bet on that.

[@existncdotcom5277]

.“I intend to live forever. So far, so good.” - Steven Wright

[@invox9490]

It is interesting to think that old tales talk about gods being like us, only bigger than us (giants) and immortal. Some truth there it seems. 😉

[@jerryjacobsunny5574]

Good time to invest in some crypto

[@AdrianColley]

You're inviting speculation, not investment.

[@ibn210ibn210]

What about the great Dane? Must be genetic defect...

[@ventusprime]

The scientific world ruined me. I am looking at that guy and say that guy not looks like a biologist nor a zoologist and why . why my brain sad that ?

[@thstroyur]

Because he's a physicist?

[@prateek2645]

Wow your mother must've been around for a thousand years then

[@kenshiarsyabayta473]

first comment!

[@RotaryPoweredRX]

No one cares

[@mrbeast5742]

@@RotaryPoweredRX yeah

[@TheContrariann]

I like the new look of Big Think 👍 But please use DARK BACKGROUND as, 1. It goes easy on the eyes 2. Is good to watch at night, as most people use KZbin after work at night. 3. Gives better contrast 4. Even subtitles are visible against dark background DON'T USE WHITE📵 USE DARK BACKGROUND behind the Thinkers !!!☑

[@PriyankitaPant]

This needs more likes!