Why do they hate us ?

[@jameshanscombe2530]

For some reason the West wing for me is inherently a part of this period in my life. I was watching Bartlett's MS disclosure the night of 9/11 Sydney Australian time, as in the episode ended and then it cut to an air crash in New York. all these years later I just pulled out this episode to watch again. Even in the light of everything we have seen since, Iraq, No WMDs, the killing of Bin Laden. It remains a truly beautiful reflection on terrorism and the Arab israeli conflict. God Bless Aaron Sorkin for his skill in writing and May He bless and hold the soul of John Spencer. Even in a television world of House of Cards, Mad Men and breaking bad, The West Wing is an extraordinary series and an absolute treasure.

[@starwarsgeek8]

One must tread carefully, for "They hate us for what they are" is an insidious and comforting, though usually baseless, explanation/justification.

[@GOP71]

By the way, while everyone is loading up their intellectual artillery on me, may I say I still liked this scene

[@janw491]

As relevant today as it was then. Brilliant writing

[@threesquared6720]

Its a pity that Lord John Marbury wasn't in the White House when this happened.

[@Elthenar]

Oh god yes, I'd have killed for Lord John to have made an appearance.

[@willowjumphart]

love the West Wing more than life, but the argument josh makes here is american exceptionalism taken to the simplistic extreme. The argument that islamic extremists hate america for its plurality is pretty wildly off-base and completely glosses over the very real role the U.S. and other western countries had in causing the adverse humanitarian, social, and economic conditions that would lead to the rise in islamic extremism

[@puncherdavis9727]

The problem is that Islamic extremism is built directly into the Quran it doesn't require an outside influence for it to be there. The whole premise the Muhammad had with his men was that of mercenary and conquest and trophies and wives. That's it that was the whole premise about the whole belief system is all about mercenaries Glory bloodshed getting the women. It's a 7th Century belief system which in its truest and purest form which is not subject or allowed to be questioned by anybody has the audacity to say at some point that everything that was written before this point no longer has any validity and everything must be followed from this point forward. The belief system is corrupt and based on power and bloodshed and it says it quite openly in the Quran. I'm not saying that people who believe in Islam are all evil or extremists but the belief system itself is not and never has claim to be developed for peace it is about conquest and always has been

[@MPDLR]

Well hopefully they "express" such to Europe - that has done it for centuries. Start with Paris. (Of course, I mean writing letters .......c;mion boys, write!!!)

[@vulcanicoliose]

I loved this show, and this was one of my favourite episodes, however I think they try to force somethings as the story goes, like they do when Josh is asked about the "success" of the IRA, tho wich he replies that actually there was no success, after all Ireland was still divided and the Ulster remained in British hands.

[@rogerw3818]

"They hate us for our freedom" is the most simplistic statement that was ever uttered.

[@lancer525]

And yet, it is also the most accurate. The principle is, distilled down to it's most basic and simple form, "We demand that everyone else do as we do, to validate what we believe we are" The unspoken part of that statement is "If you don't we are going to kill you, infidel" Complexity isn't a vice, but it isn't always necessary either.

[@falconnrr]

It isn't really from a season. It was a special episode shown after 9-11 that doesn't fit into the plot at all. It was made specifically for the attacks.

[@goodspelr]

The KKK does not have millions of Christians defending them, or refusing to condemn their terrible actions. If the KKK issued death threats to anyone who criticized Christianity, that'd be a fair comparison. The truth is that millions of 'moderate' Muslims think that death sentences for criticizing Islam are appropriate.

[@GOP71]

all I was saying at the end was that there are ways to disagree without being disagreeable, by questioning character or intellect.....

[@diabolical22]

wow - nuance! I wish I heard that more often by politicians (although Obama did make an impressively nuanced argument (for a politician) about race the other night)

[@RJY4356]

This was made only weeks after 9/11 it was an episode hurriedly written just for a discussion of issues right after the terrorist disasters.

[@carllandsness9416]

Needing major self-examination of American arrogance and dominance

[@hjpop]

IT also helps that no one can renounce the religion once they convert...

[@ranwolf76]

there's also the fact he let many Christian families leave Jerusalem unharmed. even families who couldn't pay the ransom

[@carllandsness9416]

A few points here with much more needed

[@mobiz711]

This episode was really condescending, and this is coming from a guy who adores this series - as attested by the 2 day binge of clips I am on, . They wanted to lecture to us, and rather than creating a story line that illustrated their perspective, they turned the audience into a bunch of high schoolers so they could bat us around with their opinions. Mind you now, I agree with everything they are saying, I just would prefer not to be lectured. to.

[@donnaclinton5578]

Nope as blank is to dems. He got that wrong.

[@Invetation]

@gwhyhate The Crusades were here too.. and when Saladin won his noble and chivalrous behavior was noted by Christian chroniclers, especially in the accounts of the Siege of Kerak, and despite being the nemesis of the Crusaders, he won the respect of many of them, including Richard the Lionheart; rather than becoming a hated figure in Europe, he became a celebrated example of the principles of chivalry

[@rugbynimbus]

Oh for fuck's sake. This show was written, shot, produced and distributed in two weeks following 9/11. Is it the best episode ever? No. Is it an outstanding lesson in Islamic relations? No. What it is -- what it provided -- was a moment of clarity when people were grappling with *why* they witnessed a horror. It gave a starting point for reason when all you could find on TV was the same depressing footage over and over. Judge it by that, not by this other horseshit. Judge it for what it was.

[@davidbennettracing538]

Would someone mind showing this to Donald Trump?

[@JayHa451]

True, but I believe that the Sunnis and the Shia are divided over organization of the religion, but I'm not sure.

[@larkmacallan4257]

The thing is, there are a lot more Islamic extremists than there are KKK members.

[@GOP71]

I never questioned anyone's patriotism. I said previously that there is a difference between having principles while letting someone else have their own principles vs. having principles that are easily tossed aside just to get along. Finally, did I ever use harsh wording to make my point, like you did in your name-calling? Wouldn't a true liberal want to respect all opinions and make a serious point like mr3856a tries to do below?

[@komendekeer]

No, that's a too easy answer. Because I am talking about a multitude of cultures in three continents that all had their own traditions. The only thing in common is christianity that values the individual and this leads to freedom. Islam fails to value the individual and for that reason the tribal traditions were stronger than the supposed rule of equality. But I also think that islamic ethic and law itself is in fact a summary of these tribal traditions that mohammed gave a new religious meaning

[@Belthazar1113]

Its too bad he is wrong. It would be nice if he were right, but alas, not.

[@earthstar393]

Well, he's not wrong. Why do you think he is? Not all Muslims are trying to kill you...

[@MsDDiddy]

@ModernBabylon: forgive me but since i havent even commented on this video for almost a year, i haven't any idea as to what you're referring to. compared WHAT to thousands of death resulting from terrorism?

[@GeorgeKofos]

I am Christian and I can tell you that my religion is the only one that has ever actually wiped another religion from the face of the planet... several of them.... As much as you can blame islam for anything, nothing comes close to that....

[@jeremywalsh519]

Nobody outside the KKK really supports the KKK, islamic extremist have widespread support.

Take a pit filled with snakes. All but two are benign and non threatening. Two are the most aggressive, venomous imaginable.... Would you let your child walk into that pit...or yourself for that matter? Sure, most Islamists are benign...but a certain percentage are "radicalized". Isn't is practical and sane to protect ourselves?

[@roxanajohnson2789]

Scott Nyob it practical and sane until your protection warrants the need of protection from those who do not deserve to the NEED for protection.

[@Ko252]

Ron Paul has side that longer.

[@MsDDiddy]

@DavidUK84: seriously? b/c i would say that conservatives would be much more offended than liberals about the acceptance of new ideas and beliefs that are different from theirs.

[@psychedelicchocolate5761]

This episode was out of place in the story, and this scene doesn’t even make sense. Not just the oversimplification of what josh is trying to talk about and what the substance is of his lecture, it’s that the kids wrote essays at a competitive level and made it to a White House tour, and josh was asking simple questions and the kids gave stupid answers.

[@lotsofburritos]

It wasn't supposed to be part of the story, but more like a special, if I remember correctly - it is considered an episode 0 (5th season i think)

[@presidiun]

@MsDDiddy About the ramification part may be i did not express myself clearly, I meant it in general. Be careful what you say, where you say it. As far as the brother part - it was meant as a joke. If i have offended I apologize. Just please don't eat me. :)

[@phishfearme2]

it's not "us" that they hate - it's non-Muslims - aka infidels - and in many cases its non-Sunni that they hate - why is this so difficult to understand especially when terrorists simply tell us that this is the way it is?

[@readinglts]

These were supposed to be gifted high schoolers. Shouldn't they have known the basics of the Islam religion and that Muslim Extremists aren't the norm? Every average freshman I've met knows this. I knew this when I was 8...

[@pepps779]

lol this writing is a fair answer to the question. The whole scene is setup to treat the audience like ignorant school children. Quite simply, acting like an arrogant prick to people is an easy way to make them resent you at the very least, especially when the arrogance is merely a front to cover for your own ignorance.

[@NewYorkBound]

Shouldn't it be "Islamic extremists: Islam," not "Islamic"?

[@ModernBabylon]

@MsDDiddy I actually laughed. You are genuinely comparing that to the thousands of deaths in recent years resulting from Islamic terrorism? Call that hundreds of thousands if you include insurgencies and civil war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[@ranwolf76]

And if I remember correctly there are rules for a Jihad that states what can and can't be attacked. something that the "Jihadist" seem to ignore

[@dorkmax7073]

Jihad means "struggle of faith". It has connotations of self-doubt and inner turmoil, but it can also mean fighting in the name of your faith. The Qur'an outlines specific rules for what is legitimate Jihad. First, its never belligerent. It can involve violence, but you can't be an aggresive Jihadist. A Jihadist may defend others or himself, but killing nonbelievers just becaise is evil, not Jihad. Second, it isn't self-harming. Jihadists may knowingly endanger themselves at the hands of others, but they aren't kamikazes. A man who is openly Muslim under threat of violence is undertaking his Jihad. Third, because Islam is meant to be a lifestyle and ideology, not just a religion, anything can be related to faith. Islam says that bearing children is a virtue of faith, so a woman who dies in childbirth is a martyr of Jihad. A person who overcomes a horrid disease while maintaining strength is committing to Jihad.

[@Matt-cz6ti]

Please tell me that the response 'because we're American' is not the view of most Americans. Because it's not just you. I'll grant you there hasn't been an attack on the scale of 9/11 to another country bu Britain, France, Spain, Russia. These people target other Muslims in Muslim countries. It's not just America.

[@OverLordthe1st]

Funny how a liberal could say Islamic extremism and not care about it back then, what changed?

[@OverLordthe1st]

CountJimbo Im confused who are you blaming the left or the right.

[@MsDDiddy]

@presidiun first of all, let me say that I've studied all over the world including the middle east and europe. america is where i received my high school and university education so i would say in terms of knowledge, i am pretty well rounded. second, did you even read the entire argument between me and modernbabylon because if you didn't, you shouldn't make comments to me. third, my definition of a child was simply stated to piss off the person i was talking to. satisfied?

[@MsDDiddy]

@ModernBabylon: i didnt say that being in law school corresponds to my knowledge of history. since you chose to disclose your educational background and insult my education in the process, i decided to do the same. however, in my first 3 years of college, i studied history and political science so i actually do know what i'm talking about. and i believe my definition of a child is spot on- someone with an underdeveloped brain who believes they are right when they're not. does that not define u?

[@presidiun]

@MsDDiddy If you have studied all around the world and if you are well rounded, you should be aware of what you say and that there are ramifications. Do you know what is spin control? If you don't then I would like to advise you to be perfectly clear in what you say, to avoid ambiguity especially in the western world where people make a big deal out of nothing. Try not to piss people off. It's not nice. P. S. By the way, do you have a brother named Dexter by any chance?

[@whynotbig]

@LinusandSally that is almost 6 decate

[@woodscraftlindsay789]

After the aired the Afghanistan Taliban kill women in a Soccer field line them up shot the in the head who kill them guy seen this on tv called Afghanistan tp tell them that played it out in real life

[@iamstinkynoreally]

Who sounds brainwashed? You offered no evidence the scene was wrong in anyway, you offered no counter argument and basically accused the opposing viewpoint of lying and propaganda. That isn't how you win an argument and convince people your point of view is correct. That's how you sound like a crazy person who's opinion can be completely discounted without a second thought.

[@ModernBabylon]

@MsDDiddy I'm at university, americans really need to start realising there's a difference. I'm assuming you didn't study history (or study at all?). My father is an historian, both my sisters have studied history, I think I can get away with taking the high ground on this one. Well since there aren't that many comments on this video it hardly took "scouring", and I don't really look at the date. No, I don't have a huge amount of studying to do at the moment, because I'm top of my year.

[@barbarabailey5464]

What about yourself?

[@presidiun]

@MsDDiddy First! You have studied history and 'political science' in the most information restricted countries in the world. Second! The definition given for a child, no idea where you read it and who is the idiot that wrote it, but a child is an individual who lacks certain amounts of experience and relevant knowledge, not because that the kid is 'underdeveloped' - unless it has a disease.

[@whynotbig]

@whynotbig well almost 5

[@EmilioReyes_97]

I really didn't like this episode, it felt forced and...honestly made me question if this whole thing wad funded by thr CIA or the NSA. Yeah talking about topics is what this show did but...this felt like a lecture, propaganda almost.

[@GOP71]

way too simplistic, especially since even mainstream Muslim's see Christianity like its a pestilence - plus this country was founded and expanded and became greater because of tolerance, not pluralism. There is a difference between "we'll just have to agree to disagree" and "we are both right , we are both wrong, lets live at peace with each other". Sorkin is my favorite tv writer, but that pluralism point is liberals' tightrope routine when trying to say they love this country.

[@MsDDiddy]

oh and can we be a little original w/ the name calling? seriously, doesnt do much for your intelligence if you just copy me. i understand you're just a child, but please, just humor me a little.

[@IslandSimPilot]

Oh, now here we go - all of the sudden it's "can't we all just get along" from Mr. "that-pluralism-point-is-liberals'-tightrope-routine-when-trying-to-say-they-love-this-country." I love it when people like you get called on the intellectual weakness of their premise, then turn around and play the moral high ground-walking victim. How trite. Which are you, "we'll just have to agree to disagree," or "we are both right , we are both wrong, lets live at peace with each other"? Answer: neither.

[@brainwasher9876]

Holy hell, what a preach fest.

[@AgentQQ8]

LoL

[@ModernBabylon]

@MsDDiddy no, i suppose not, but it does have something to do with how intelligent I am (as it happens they provide us with a decent amount of work, 100 pages a day and an essay per week, my university is fourth best in the world). but that's hardly important, and being at law school has absolutely nothing to do with what you know about history. on a minor note, your definition of a child disagrees with pretty much every political, medical and social definition in the world.

[@MsDDiddy]

@ModernBabylon: oh you're still in school? that explains it. how about you actually graduate with a degree, then i'll take you seriously. trust me, it's in the millions. it's history so it's not up to you to decide and it's not debatable. and actually, i was speaking of actual islam, not the terrorist fundamentalist crap. i had to go back a long way in the comments to see why i even wrote that. do u make it a habit of scouring comments from months back. dont u have studying to do?

[@MsDDiddy]

@presidiun considering i haven't even been on this video for almost a year, please enlighten me as to what i said that would warrant any ramifications? i didn't go out of my way to piss anyone off, just the asshole with whom i was speaking with who tried to insult my religion. are you lecturing him as well, oh wise one? and no, i don't have a brother named dexter and i don't think i would tell you if i did, person i don't know.

[@MsDDiddy]

ooooh nice comback. islamic terrorists are bad but not comparable to the dark history of the christian religion. you want to name people persecuted by muslims? two can play at that game. here are the people that were shown chrisian hospitality: 1.martin luther king 2. medgar evars 3. rosa parks, whose house was burned and stalked and taunted on the streets BY so-called CHRISTIANS 4. ppl. killed in freedom school bombings 5. denise macnair, girl raped by klan, police denied rape happened

[@Dabhach1]

Hmmm...Josh might just as well have answered his own question with "...as the Democratic Party is to Christianity".

[@AvangionQ]

Republicans are far more extreme than democrats are, but neither compare to radicalized islamists. www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lets-just-say-it-the-republicans-are-the-problem/2012/04/27/gIQAxCVUlT_story.html + www.brookings.edu/opinions/lets-just-say-it-the-republicans-are-the-problem/

[@hudeen]

shiiittttttt