Why do we talk about the game like this?

confer greater context when giving an evaluation

[@jackmist]

I have to agree with you on this. Even though I don't play competitive, i'm tired of entire decks being completely dismissed for even the slightest perceived flaws. And a lot of the time it's not even "I don't see this being meta, but i can image some casuals having fun with it" it's "this won't ever see play, why did you even bother?" and I just hate it. When the new Ice barrier cards were announced, alot of people definietly understood how good they were for the deck, but an almost equal amount of people dismissed it since "a few good cards won't help when the rest of the archetype is bad" as if the structure deck didn't exist. One yugituber whose name i don't currently remember even looked at their new synchro and said "I wouldn't use this in Sword Soul". Of course you wouldn't, it's *Ice Barrier* support! I guess that also fuels my gripe that for a boss monster to good these day it has to be summonable by every deck that has monsters in it.

[@lulzvg]

For sure. It's not just a competitive thing and maybe I should have focused on that a little more? I tweeted about it a bit afterwards because it's something I see in all kinds of hobbies. You want to do an off the beaten path build in an RPG? Decently often if you ask around or dig for information so you can be more informed doing the build you'd be met with opposition because "there are better options". I *can* understand asking if someone is sure or giving them the information and adding on "this other build is really good if that doesn't work out". But yeah, complete handwaving most of the time. With YGO it's kinda insane because someone out there will prove "oh you can acclimate this deck to the format" and it often has a natural progression of people being even more obstinate about the deck being "bad".

[@jackmist]

@@lulzvg Yeah. Sometimes it feels like the playerbase has forgotten that yugioh is a game made to be enjoyed and that not every new deck has to break the format over its knee or even be rouge.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

yugioh is just a game for people who wanna play 1 deck and that's it

[@BananenBread]

Preach. I was really surprised how people dismissed these cards because they don’t make the turn skips easier. The people who complain about the deck dying to droll are the ones who play these super janky FTKs… that immediately die to droll. You usually can easily establish Draconids + mu Beta under droll.

[@maunabesanika]

I agree with you. I played so many video games and i've lost count on how many people questioning my character/deck build, i usually goes with what looks fun or something like "hmm if i combine this with this it should work" Of course not all of them works as expected and not always comes from my own thought, im not that smart, if i see interesting build i would copy it lol. Then i would adjust the build so it fit my playstyle I also usually only play multiplayer co-op game with my friend because they would never ask any question before i tested it, and give feedback so i can improve the build or completely abandon it, sometimes they would even try to use my build lol I dont say that following the meta is wrong, they're meta because of reasons, but believing that they're the only playable build/strategy is a different thing A wise streamer once said "every build is potentially viable as long as you play it like a decent human being" It was said on a moba stream tho, not sure how it translates to a card games lol

[@lulzvg]

I think there's truth in that statement in general. There's always going to be a lot of factors in consideration but at base the potential for viability exists.

[@nisedyna3579]

Considering you play Cardfight Vanguard, this also reminded me of a card and deck called Greedon Masque. A new boss unit for the Greedon deck which was known to focus on multiple vanguard swing and hit high number while sacking triggers, at first most players dismissed the cards due to it lacking the third restand aswell as the 15k+ power therefore no big number but whole and behold the deck became meta thanks to it. At first I dismissed it myself too, I dont understand why play it over base greedon until I saw a couple build online, deciding to give it a second chance after an underwhelming testing session (I was building with multiple battle in mind without realizing the flaws behind it) and now the deck adopted an entirely new playstyle different than before although still retaining the vanguard swing but focus alot more on rear and control aswell now. Like you said in the video, people dismissed a card due to it being something that doesn't allign with the deck current playstyle or well the bias that a player developed that they instantly pass a card out as worthless. Ngl I learned my lesson after the Greedon fiasco with the added mistake of building the deck wronged and not experimenting with it which lead to a wacky personal experience as I can confirm as someone who deadass made the same mistake

[@lulzvg]

Oh yeah I saw that in real time & its a good example. I've spoken poorly of Masques decks b/c of the inherent inconsistency that exists when trying to integrate the playstyle as well as the impact they had on the game's overall landscape. But for the individual bosses? They are valid options (mostly). Greedon and Lia are pretty unique cases. For Greedon even with the new support you can build into the old playstyle and win on the back of multiple restands but as you mentioned Greedon Masques allows for a different axis of play and the benefits of that are were definitely impactful enough to make it just as worthwhile as the base form if not better. Lia meanwhile benefitted a lot from running both Masque and Vivace b/c they provided tools that compliment each other but it also wasn't the most common train of thought. I do think it's fine though b/c it's a given we won't always see the options. We just need to be mindful to not be obtuse.

[@yusheitslv100]

I think the issue might be that people are used to a deck playing a specific way or doing a specific thing that if the new support doesn't fit either of those 2 molds, "it's bad." (Essentially familiarity bias.) It's a part of why I have trouble playing Dragon Link (and eventually dropped it) since I'm too used to ending on Borrelend + Savage.

[@empireyouth5791]

So I am going to admit I am not the smartest at the game or even understand many Of the ideas behind deck building, But I feel the problem and why this mindset happens is because of time investment plus extremely rapid meta-shifting, while Yu-Gi-Oh is not the only complicated game Learning what makes a deck good and how to play a deck by itself can’t dissuade anyone from experimenting with it “ what do you mean I can play D/D/D in a more controlling way where I can recover if my opponent Nibiru me and have other interactions aside from three negates, having three negates is better I’ve already invested 15 hours into figuring out the best play depending on hand trap I don’t need to spend another 15 and whatever this is” The very idea of re-learning a deck feels unnecessary unless the new way it’s self already proves to be worthwhile without your own input basically i’ll prove me wrong mentality and for the second reason being extremely fast meta-shift, Learning what’s the next Meta figuring out what your favorite deck can do to it and seeing if you are going to go with it and incorporate it into your deck or how you’re going to spec your deck to win against it also takes up time and brain space These are my two takes and I can honestly be wrong, I am horrible at constructing decks and evaluating cards as usually I just net-deck and then customize from there. So maybe what I’m talking about is actually extremely fast and easy and I’m just bad at it but I thought it was worth giving my take

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

you dont need to really be smart just net deck the latest meta stuff and call it a day

[@GenesicShinZyraelKai]

I don't understand why people aren't open to the idea that certain decks can be opened to different avenues and be allowed to work equally well or in some cases, better. They usually need other people, typically influencers, telling them that "Oh hey, your deck has Route B now and guess what, it's better played this way". Most of the time TCG players don't explore unknown avenues, and it's up to the OCG to that first. TCG then picks it up when influencers spread news about it, only then will people see its value. Funnily enough, this mentality even extends to custom cards.

[@novalaxia]

KZbin recommended this video to me amidst the sea of "MTG player reacts to YGO card" content that hooks me in like a child to Cocomelon, and I think your approach to TCG discussion videos is something that feels sorely missing in the space. I won't comment on the topic(s) you covered in this video because you are honestly very correct with your hypotheses (and I am long out of trying to bat for YGO discussions as a content creator lol) - however, I do legitimately think you'd pop off really hard and foster some really good discussions if you had a decent microphone, and somewhat of a rough script/bullet points to hopefully better focus some of your (still very valid) arguments. Sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking a little bit, this is otherwise a good video! You've got a ton of very engaging insights throughout your similar videos, so I hope you foster some good discussions in future!

[@lulzvg]

Thanks. I think your assessment is on point and the mic thing is something I'll def fix when I can afford to. This 100000000% wasn't scripted much. I mostly made this one out of exasperation so I'm glad the cobbled together nature of this doesn't take away much. I do script/bullet point to some degree but think a few of the vids end up suffering due to the mic b/c I'll end up needing to re-record things and other aspects of the video def suffer due to me pushing things out hastily. It's quite reassuring to hear things like this b/c as long as I've played this game and tcgs in general it feels the points I've wanted to touch on would frequently have a lot of general pushback. People being more willing to engage w/ alternative povs a of late helps a lot.

[@zerosypher0114]

6:52 the real reason for that is because of Meta Worship. Where in you have people who look at the hottest shot like photon and gush in Master duel or Duel Links then comes along Atem or another high ranking duelist that clapps it down on a high ratio. To be fair, these are good archetypes but the average duel links decks aren't the gospel. But I think people ride the tier lists too much for both tcg, games and everything else. Tournament decks that win competitions don't even need to be the sexiest thing out there and people don't think about that possibility. Maybe in duel links but not in reality.

[@guilty_neco]

DUEL MASTERS MENTIONED

[@-Siknakaliux-II]

omg same The logo kinda looks like the Drago symbol in Beyblade lol

[@Danielss250]

interesting video, I agree completelly , I hate how hard it is to just talk about things, ppl can be so dismissive. It happens in a lot of games, but ygo I feel has it the worst. I THINK? this is slowly changing in the ygo community in the last year or so, but I could be just coping but I think some bigger creators have kinda talked about at least tangencialy and it got ppl thinking. Don't quote me on that tho, like I said I might be coping. YGO is perceived as a very broken game and if newer cards don't have a very apperant way to be used in really broken combos than most ppl don't even bother engaging. It's a sad reality we live in. YGO is very unique in the fact that there is no rotation and most cards are here to stay forever so in theory there is os much that could be done, and those legacy time wizard formats really prove this point, since the meta in every single one is completelly different from when that format actually happened. Basically witha bit of time consideration and discussions, entire new strategies were formed and so on. Also what game is it at 9:10?

[@lulzvg]

Etrian Odyssey V! It's one of my favorite series. I think that the videos MBT, APS, Farfa, Josh, Jesse, and others have put out discussing some of these things has done a lot to help shift povs I do think any instances of discussions help drive people to taking a step back and thinking about it all. It's really disappointing that dismissal is often the base reaction to different things. Like I'm often unsurprised by some decks performing well but it's only because it's usually something I looked into. The fact they did is/should still be exciting, right? But often times you get anything from dismissal to attempts at discrediting the performance. Which is insane b/c regionals are still 10 round events before top cut oftentimes.

[@sepheiba]

word! well said

[@user-qc1ff3st7r]

I think this issue is more rampant in casual to semi-competitive settings however. I don’t mean to sound gatekeep-y but the most competitive players I know tend to be pretty open to trying things out, even if they don’t agree with the initial theory. And I know you mentioned it in another comment but MBT started this conversation a while ago, and one part of it comes down to the fact that Yugioh makes itself very difficult to evaluate cards compared to other games. This issue still exists in Magic, but not to nearly the same extent from my 10+ years in that game, and that’s partially due to how much easier card evaluation is in that game (and it’s still hard sometimes!) Basically, we are all going to encounter this dialogue about “unplayable” cards in our irl communities because frankly that’s what most of them are; casual to semi-competitive. Their priorities aren’t in the right place to evaluate cards in a way that doesn’t match convention and I don’t blame them because the game doesn’t prepare you for that in any way imo

[@lulzvg]

I don't think any of what you said is in any way gatekeep-y. I'd like to think the casual to semi-competitive bit is the case on average but I've also seen those who consistently go to and perform well at events have a similar purview & inclination towards dismissal. So I think what you said is totally on point and I don't blame people not having the perspective for evaluating things on those alternative axes. It's nonetheless frustrating that it seems to stretch beyond that into competitive discussion in this game in particular more so than any other I've played. Been on YGO since 2001 for extra context. Dunno why but OCG cards were in local stores and some people had family who could tl.

[@alicepbg2042]

1:00 - who the hell said that? the lock IS the issue

[@lulzvg]

?

[@alicepbg2042]

@@lulzvg in the video you said some people said the card would be bad even without the lock.

[@lulzvg]

@@alicepbg2042 Ah. It was a pretty common reaction and argument I saw in general throughout the day in a few places. Twitter, disc, forums, etc.

[@u.a.perfectace7786]

A reasonable response? Someome actually reads Yugioh cards and assess them fairly? Breath of fresh fucking air. I am being serious. Whether casual or competitive, no one reads card effects. Without them being looked at, hardly anyone considers potential applications and interactions. Cards only suck if they require heavy investment with little to no pay off, have When effects, are unsearchable, and/or too situational to be useful (worst cases rely on your opponent to do a specific action).

[@lulzvg]

Even then stuff like Exo falls into that last category and still aren't on that level of bad. But nonetheless it's engaged with less. Bit sad that having the quality alone is enough for a write-off.