Why Does D&D use these 6 Ability Scores?

Where did D&D's 6 main stats come from? How have they changed over time? Let's use our Intelligence-or maybe Wisdom?-to find out! ▶️ More below! ⏬
*Get Bob's Bases & Businesses through these links!
💥 FREE sample: / 92046905
💥 Full version on Patreon: / shop
💥 Full version on DTRPG: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...
▶️ Daddy Rolled a 1 video: • D&D: Why 6 Ability Sco...
💥 Bob World Builder merch: my-store-f02975.creator-sprin...
RPG resources (affiliate links)
🎲 DICE*: www.onlycrits.com/bobworldbui...
🛒 BOOKS: www.amazon.com/shop/bobworldb...
🧙 MY BOOKS: www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/p...
📚 BOXED TEXT*: dscryb.com/bob
*use discount code "BOB" !
Thank you for all your support, and keep building :D
00:00 why even ask this question??
01:11 why dnd mental stats are dum
03:22 the sexy origin of dnd ability scores
05:49 when charisma was wayyy overpowered
07:26 why we roll for stats today
07:59 how ability modifiers took over
09:09 character stats matter!
#dnd #dungeonsanddragons #osr

[@BobWorldBuilder]

This video got delayed, so now you can get my Bases & Businesses through any of these links! 💥 FREE sample: www.patreon.com/posts/92046905 💥 Full version on Patreon: www.patreon.com/bobworldbuilder/shop 💥 Full version on DTRPG: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/464217?affiliate_id=1987166

[@lancemagmer9701]

2e skills and powers split each of the six scores in 2.

[@sordesmax6238]

1:57 no. intelligence is your computing power. wisdom is your self-awareness.

[@davidioanhedges]

Not knowing the difference between Wis and Int, is on point for D&D ...and many others - Bows require strength much more than dexterity, and swords require dexterity more than strength (unless they are used as iron bars with an edge) Wisdom is spotting something is odd - Intelligence is working out what is odd Wisdom is recognising it's a trap - Intelligence is knowing how to disarm it

[@Marveryn]

for me int should just be replace with the word knowledge instead. Int means how much acquired knowledge a player has particular in their field of expertise, but wisdom is applying that knowledge in functional ways. So a person could be a reader but if he has low wisdom then he be like clift from cheers. He can toss you a lot of fact but he would haven't any idea how to use them into a working plan. Aka he may know how to build a raft but he would not consider making a raft cause the idea of using that knowledge wont come to him unless someone else bring it up.

[@shamanspointofview8083]

It is an interesting problem, we solved it by making the following Intelligence - the ability to figure things out and teach or understand Wisdom - the things you know like knowledge skills Wit - your ability to think rapidly, improvise, or hold your resolve against fear humor or other social skill

[@Lycaon1765]

In history intelligence and wisdom was literally the same thing. That's why the most prominently Int-based caster is called the "wise-ard" ;)

[@shamanspointofview8083]

@@Lycaon1765 Sp why then is it wisdom that you gain but you’re not intelligent if you can’t learn or figure things out, they aren’t hard to understand tbh, wisdom just gets screwed by also being the awareness stat, but six stats have to many issues with overlapping uses, using 3 or 4 just makes this problem worse

[@mbg4681]

Wisdom is knowing when to apply intelligence, often by virtue of experience (which is why wisdom is seen as the province of elders).

[@MalloonTarka]

Dexterity being the stat used for bows makes sense from a game design standpoint, but real bows need more strength the bigger they are and the harder and farther they can shoot. Warbows (~170 lbs draw weight) were wielded by _very_ strong individuals.

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Yeah bows used in medieval warfare, as I loosely understand, were for shooting in a massive volley as far as possible--all strength. Fantasy characters are usually trick shooters making impossibly accurate shots--dexterity.

[@iCarus_A]

PF actually has a subclass of ranged weapons with the Propulsive and Kickback traits, both of which rewards higher strength by translating strength into damage. I think it makes sense that Dex is used to describe accuracy though.

[@MalloonTarka]

@@BobWorldBuilder I'm not sure how (un)important dexterity was in warfare - I'd have to look that up. But for adventuring to be realistic (which is not a goal in and of itself, mind), even trick shooters wielding warbows should need strength too. It doesn't matter how dexterous you are if you can't pull back the string. It _could_ make for an interesting trade-off, game-design wise. You could give higher-power bows a minimum strength requirement, just like heavy armor. Ranged weapons are often just stronger than melee weapons, so this way you could give ranged characters the choice of sticking with lower-power bows *or* having to have both a decent strength and a decent dexterity stat in order to wield a higher-power bow. You'd need to make the difference between the bows (the damage dice) actually matter for this to work, though. :/ As of now the most effective ranged build uses the 1d4 hand crossbow, and it's most effective since it gives you an extra attack.

[@MalloonTarka]

@@iCarus_A Interesting! Thank you.

[@kevoreilly6557]

Dex with missile weapons is hand eye coordination that have more to do with hunting than warfare In the former shots are linear, need to strike to kill quickly to stop adrenaline spoiling the meat. Warfare, arc of fire and draw speed (1 shot every six seconds) is more critical (area of effect essentially)

[@muddlewait8844]

One of my favorite passages in all of D&D is the description in 3rd edition of what it means to have a 0 in an ability score, which I use as shorthand for what each ability represents. If you have Strength 0, you can’t move anything else. If you have Dexterity 0, you can’t move yourself. If you have Con 0, you are not alive. If you have Intelligence 0, you cannot think, learn, or remember. If you have Wisdom 0, you don’t know anything else exists. If you have Charisma 0, you don’t know that *you* exist.

[@meathorse]

The charisma one is pretty clever.

[@unholywarrior9007]

If you have 0 syrup you can move your lungs to breath

[@commandercaptain4664]

Cthulhu: 0 Charisma is my bread n' butter.

[@marcelhoermann8213]

@@meathorse really? I think taht one is the worst ^^

[@GOREilla.]

Good ol' times. Before 3.5 edition Ranger was the BEAST, high dex provided dual wielding AND archery.

[@MegaFrog]

I like Shadowrun's 8 (10 technically but mainly 8) stats, because it feels like D&D but if the confusing bits were more clear. The interesting thing is that the mental and physical stats actually mirror each other. Body is your physical toughness, Willpower is your mental toughness. Agility is your physical speed, Logic is your mental speed. Reaction is your physical reflexes, Intuition is your mental reflexes. Strength is your physical influence, Charisma is your mental influence.

[@Xplora213]

In some respects the mirror is better but in others it Is far worse - only because it encourages even more stat whoring than before.

[@kasane1337]

To be fair thought, "speed" and "reflexes" to me seem really intertwined. I wouldn't know how to separate these two, especially in the mental mirror image.

[@lecommentar9851]

​​@@kasane1337Speed alone doesn't matter if you can't actually react to an attack. High reflexes doesn't have anything to do with speed, it actually just means being able to instinctually react in an evasive manner to attack. Low speed high reflex is someone who'd keep trying to dodge but fail, while high speed low reflex is someone who would dodge most attacks but gets hit by the majority as his body reacts too late.

[@kasane1337]

@@lecommentar9851 That makes it sound like one skill without the other is almost useless - which doesn't help the point that I find it difficult to meaningfully separate these two. After all, if I have to invest in both skills simultaneously to get any benefit for combat, then why not combine these into simply dexterity or finesse?

[@lecommentar9851]

@@kasane1337 well I never made points about anything regarding that, I just explained what both mean.

[@Goregothe]

I'm a fan of the 9 Attributes from Classic/Old World of Darkness. Strength, Dexterity and Stamina are your Physical Atts. Charisma, Manipulation and Appearance are your Social Atts. Perception, Intelligence and Wits are your Mental Atts.

[@gabriel1rodrigues2]

I like the new one where appearance is usually Merit. Makes more sense it to be a merit, that you are incredibly pretty, than make it compete with other fundamental things.

[@digitaljanus]

I liked the New World/Chronicles of Darkness revamp where it clarified each category had a Power stat (Strength, Presence, Intelligence), a Finesse stat (Dexterity, Manipulation, Wits) and a Resistance stat (Stamina, Composure, Resolve), and appearance was a purchasable Merit.

[@13eaewe7m3thso]

​@@digitaljanus i mostly prefer this line up but i feel like the overlap between "resolve" and "composure" is way too big, especially since they both also already overlap with willpower, and it's a shame to lose perception (the coolest stat) in favor of a third stat that does the same thing as two others

[@frankb3347]

It makes sense for a game focused more on Social encounters then D&D. I like Ars Magica's Strength, Stamina; Dexterity, Quickness; Intelligence, Perception; Presence, Communication.

[@WolforNuva]

@@13eaewe7m3thso Big agree on this. Way too much overlap, given the way the system works, when I played I could almost always convince the storyteller to let me roll whichever I had highest whenever one came up, unless it was written into a rule that you always use a specific one. When I played more regularly I could probably explain some of the nuance, but yeah just far too similar.

[@rynowatcher]

I will throw it out there that a lot of the od&d players intuited that rolling under your stat was how you passed a check. This was not in the rules, but it was a common mechanic circulating in war gaming circles in the 70's. They added a skill system in BECMI and non-weapon proficencies in ad&d that was a home rule everyone was using that they just officially codified, like a critical hit on a 20 or a fumble on a 1. They also did not have rules on little things like picking locks, moving obstacles, or how to tell if food was poisoned or bad other than eating it; the initiative thing was the dm making decisions on those things so you could do anything. There was not uniformity as some dm's also decided the outcome based on your ability score; ie, you have str of 8 so you auto fail bending the bars, but the fighter with str 18 auto passes with no dice rolled. Like I said, there were not rules for this but it was generally agreed on that the game designer meant the score to in some way impact these results, but no one used the same method till they codified it. They often used x of 6 charts or 3d6 roll under stat too, as d6 were most common dice. There are rules in the ad&d dmg that tell you how to play with poker dice, d6's, d10's or percentiles; it was wild.

[@colbyboucher6391]

I think a lot of this is down to D&D being THE RPG rather than AN RPG you could play. So to a lot of people the rules must've been more like suggestions on how an RPG is played, conceptually. Hence Gary's worry about people realizing that they "don't need the rules".

[@rynowatcher]

@@colbyboucher6391 the original rules are extremely poorly written ("high Gigaxian" as sometimes called) and contain a lot of jargon that you had to be a war gamer in the 70's to understand. There was a reason they made subsequent editions; ie, they do not really have a clear explanation for monster moral because that was such a common mechanic that every war game used. It still happens today where the rules for Cairne or Five Tourches Deep, for instance, require you to have played d&d and understand certain concepts in d&d order to play it. If you did not have the context, you would make up all sorts of fixes to make the games playable and fill on the gaps. There are still arguments about the BX specific use of Magic Missle for osr players who wanted to recreate the rules that revolves around if you can cast it and release when you got a target or the spell travels its range over a time limit of its duration for a limit of maximum distance in a set period of time. Generally, I would say it still happens today and for the same reason. Ie, in 5e d&d, most people do not run social encounters RAW because they are very strangely presented and most of the rules are in the dmg with some layout issues. No one uses CR as intended and everyone kind of makes their own work around to get desired results, and we are talking about the most played and highest selling rpg. Playing an rpg RAW is a rather new concept that they started to push in 3e for branding purposes. Even games like GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, and Cyberpunk expected the gm to cultivate the rules and only use the ones the gm wanted to for their game; heck, half the rules in GURPS contradict themselves between books up to the 3rd edition.

[@abyssimus]

Yeah. First time I played (3e with a DM who'd previously been running AD&D), I guessed that I was supposed to be rolling under. DM caught that and was impressed.

[@TheL4W]

Rolling under or equal is the main concept of all rolls in The Dark Eye and personally I find that pretty intuitive. The Dark Eye in addition uses 8 abilities and strangely enough they all make sense. You crit on a 1 in that system and fumble on a 20, so whenever Professor Dungeonmaster tells people "may all your rolls be 20s", I hope that he is wrong. 😂

[@colbyboucher6391]

If this is gonna turn into a discussion about Roll Under in general, BRP is the way as far as I'm concerned. You have a 66 out of 100 in Boating? Alright, roll under 66 unless I say otherwise. You've got a 66% chance. EZ.

[@OnslaughtSix]

Shout out to Bob for putting the big number in the big box, even though Ryan Stiles is about to start a fight over it

[@chaqalaqalaqa]

Big number goes in big box

[@LeMayJoseph]

Thanks, I hate it

[@fatalgravity]

Never realized it was supposed to be that way lol. I like the modifier in the big box because it's easier to see at a glance for me.

[@normanlennox4949]

It's completely arbitrary. Do what works for you.

[@nathannguyen1431]

​@@fatalgravity exactly, idc if I'm 16 or 17 cons, I only need to know I have a +3 every time a cons check or save comes up 🤷‍♂️

[@graphthis2249]

Back in the day Wisdom was more in line with willpower, which I think in 5e got moved to Charisma. In 1e it was explained as 'intelligence is knowing smoking is bad for you but wisdom is being able to actually quit'.

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Yeah I find it interesting that games today using the STR, DEX, WIL trio then kinda leave intelligence to the player themself rather than the character.

[@graphthis2249]

@@BobWorldBuilder I don't like to yuck other people's yums but I don't know if I would enjoy that approach haha. I think it would make more sense to replace wisdom with perception, flesh out sub skills a little better and then combine intelligence and wisdom as wits or just intelligence. Then take the wisdom based skills and divide them between charisma, intelligence, and perception accordingly.

[@graphthis2249]

@@BobWorldBuilder Just because I like 6 ability spread :)

[@digitaljanus]

No, the save to resist most charm and compulsion magic is still usually Wisdom, and only occasionally Charisma.

[@rayquaza5059]

@@digitaljanusWillpower is split between Wisdom and Charisma. For saving throws, Wisdom is generally used. Bur for executing your will unto others, Charisma is used. You use your Charisma to force others to change their will and do as you command.

[@daddyrolleda1]

This is Martin from Daddy Rolled A 1, and I wanted to thank you so much for mentioning my channel in your video! I really appreciate it! I'm glad you found it helpful in your research for your video. Cheers, and happy gaming!

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Happy to credit your research! Keep it up!

[@kevinlamb2129]

Great video. A lot of your younger viewers might also not be aware that in early days stats served another purpose beyond the ability modifiers because prior to the existence of non-weapon proficiencies (skills) if a player wanted to perform a task not accounted for in the rules then the DM was advised to decide what stat the task was tied to and then have the player roll a d20 and success was achieved if they rolled *under* their ability score.

[@NotAnAlchemist_Ed]

And the beauty of it is that we don't need a table of skills. Just roll for the score that makes most sense.

[@VaGuS343]

Bob. There is something many people forget about the 3 to 18 portion of the stats. That is that rolling 3d6 causes a bell shaped 'normal' distribution with the majority of rolls will be somewhere in the middle mimicking real life. That makes characters at the extremes special. In Ad&d there were ability checks where you had to roll under your score on a d&20. Adding fun randomness that way

[@commandercaptain4664]

And now we have Marvel's Fantasy Avengers, with skills micromanaging abilities and where average is considered a dump stat. Honestly, I don't know why Wizards doesn't just jump the -shark- gun and have players roll a base 8+d6+d4 for a range between 10-18.

[@bossked1563]

​@commandercaptain4664 I think the reason it's evolved that way is due to how difficult it is to increase your stats. You only get ~4 increases usually, and those compete with any feats you want to get for mechanics or flavor. So when people design their characters, it's with the general assumption that 4-5 of their attributes are not going to change meaningfully between levels 1 and 20, even though the encounters and DCs are going to get tougher and tougher. The best way to counter this, I think, is to break feats out into their own thing and to give lots of mediocre DCs throughout the game. BG3 did a fairly good job of this, especially since you don't start with a stat over 17 iirc (meaning 2 of your 3 ASIs to get 20). But that part I think is about the DM setting proper expectations - you won't feel bad having a +1 Int at lvl 15, feel free to get that Chef feat instead, Barbarian.

[@VaGuS343]

I play a very home brewed ose version of d&d. One fun house rule I use to make leveling more fun is that on character generation I use the 3d6 come what may version in sequence BUT at every level the player rolls a d20 once for each stat and if they roll above the stat it increases by one. It's a level up ritual. This means that low stats improve quick. I love it and it's very well received

[@Alex-cq1zr]

​​​@@commandercaptain4664 In reality, levels 1 and 2 in old-school were the deadliest, resulting in characters with luckily rolled stats and skilled players surviving. So, many level 1 people were average, but it was the extraordinary who survived So, in a way, modern character creation just streamlined that, making you roll the result of the meatgrinder, not have to go through it and such. Tone of modern dnd is also different, as, unlike West Marches of odnd, where characters were doing one shots in inconsistent groups, it is now campaigns with consistent groups focusing on larger stories. And, as characters take more time to make and have more effort invested in them from the get-go, them dying easily would not work well. Wonder if story modules in which all pcs were important to the plot and thus revival was common were the precursor to this I think modern and old-school dnd are very much different beasts made for different playstyles... not that i like dnd5e. I hate dnd5e and overall prefer more narrative focused games but eh - DnD4e seems to be the best "modern" dnd, embracing the heroic tone and not being afraid of leaving it's sacred cows behind... sadly WotC didn't handle that edition well, resulting in many problem of dnd5e being born from trying to not be like 4e, aka not be like the edition which fixed a lot of problems...

[@MLN89018]

Very cool giving Daddy Rolled a 1 a shout out. His videos on D&D history and the old-school books are really well done.

[@daddyrolleda1]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate that! Cheers, and Happy Gaming.

[@mishagaming1075]

He used to rule the 1?

[@shasta_creates]

Playing BX clones with hirelings shows how powerful Charisma used to or can be. Rolling into the dungeon with a small army is WAY better than going alone. Also, hey Bob! Love your work. Keep it up!

[@Geostelar4920]

I like having the 6 stats as a balance between the different character attributes, as I feel 3 is often way too little, especially for mental stats

[@s-o-tariknomad6970]

it works for most of those 3 stat games because most of them are Hack&Slash Dungeon Crawl games first and for most. Mainline D&D is a bit broader than that, so needs more stats.

[@bryceholland905]

Some of those 3 stat games are OSR, so they expect players to use their own mental abilities instead of relying on their character sheet.

[@sneakyalmond]

@@s-o-tariknomad6970 i'd say most of the 3 stat games aren't hack & slash games.

[@ramirocarnicer2503]

@@s-o-tariknomad6970 Not really, many MUCH broader games still choose to only use 4 stats. For me Intelligence and Wisdom are kind of annoying and should be 1.

[@plop0r]

The mental abilities don't have to be stats. You can have sub 'stats' or abilities under 3 main stats and still create all the archetypes you have in D&D

[@danieldonnert3747]

You really missed out, Bob. It could have been "Bob's Biblio to Bases and Businesses". You were almost an official TTRPG character there.

[@BobWorldBuilder]

It was tempting to throw my own name in there just for the alliteration! haha

[@Tom_Het]

it can be useful to distinguish between someone's ability to solve technical/logical problems and their ability to stay calm or have a gut feeling that they shouldn't trust someone depends on the focus of the game

[@normanlennox4949]

I love these analyses of systems and their history. It's not only fascinating in its own right, but it offers great ways to think of things, awesome ideas for adapting/changing, and inspiration to take those adaptations/changes further or in new directions. Great work, sir.

[@alexbarrett3832]

When I design my own games I use four core stats. Brawn, Wits, Charm and Finesse. I think there is something to be said for the old tri-stat system of Mind Body and Spirit, but I prefer a bit more granularity in the games I make.

[@grantstratton2239]

Made a game of my own in grad school. As I recall, the stats were Fitness, Finesse, Perception, Intelligence, Willpower, and Charm. Mainly, it was recharacterizing DnD stats to remove overlap and vaugeness so that I could have each stat cover roughly the same number of skills. It ended up with some interesting results, such as in DnD what would be different schools of magic covered by different Stats (e.g. Divination by Perception, Enchantment by Charm, Evocation by Willpower), and that lead to a classless / custom class system where you would choose favored skills instead of a class. It was a fun and different way of approaching things.

[@alexbarrett3832]

@@grantstratton2239 Nice! Sounds like a fun project.

[@horrorsage1346]

Mutants and masterminds and a few others have fighting as a core stat that just kind covers how good you are a hitting and not being hot and I really like this

[@dew-it8744]

“Charisma used to be the most powerful stat in the game” used to be? I think it still is

[@davidioanhedges]

Dexterity is, it's used for more things - unless you are a Warlock then it's used for more

[@dew-it8744]

@@davidioanhedges I guess you’re right. I was gonna say it’s the most powerful because arguably the best classes use it and persuasion/deception are one of the most powerful skills to get you out of a situation. However, even most of those classes use dexterity and persuasion/deception is not all powerful if your DM rules social interaction differently

[@amelialonelyfart8848]

I think Charisma is not the most powerful stat but the most universally useful, next to maybe dexterity. Every class can benefit from it, in almost any system. It's also just the most fun, so almost every character I make, I invest some into it.

[@feral_orc]

dex is pretty useless for some characters but charisma is objectively good for everyone

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Charisma is definitely the king of stats for multi-class spellcasting, considering it's used for the primary spellcasting stat for . . . 4 classes? It's pretty powerful if you're multi-classing between any combination of Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, and Paladin anyway. Really, it's INT that's taken a pretty big hit in terms of utility in 5e compared to prior editions. Wisdom seems to be the most balanced of the 3.

[@josephcarriveau9691]

Bob, old school Charisma was far from overpowered. Each of those hirelings cost you (and your party) a share of the treasure and XP. That high charisma character with a half dozen henchmen is a financial liability, not an asset, to a lot of old school parties.

[@njfernandes87]

How often would they come out of the dungeon alive?

[@Tacticslion]

@@njfernandes87Gotta pay off their families for henchmen death or you lose the power to have henchmen because of a bad reputation.

[@BigSlimyBlob]

Meat shields were expensive, but given that the first priority was to survive, that the second was to succeed, and that the third was to get EXP and wealth... I understand why these old school gamers considered Charisma to be the most important stat. If you finish your adventure by saying "Woah, the bill's gonna rough on that one but we did it", you're way ahead of the guy who ends his adventure by saying "I could have gotten 10% more EXP if I'd lived".

[@munninn3823]

@@BigSlimyBlob They can be almost too expensive especially if they DM has you pay for your training. Meat shields can and will turn against the party and if they keep dying good luck finding another one

[@ColonelSandersLite]

@@munninn3823"if they keep dying good luck finding another one" That's what press gangs are for... :P Of course, I'm kidding. Sort of.

[@gewdguy6972]

Personally love the complexity of 3 mental attributes. I like that someone can be smart in different ways and it reflects on the rpg. You also forgot to mention that ability score damage existed in 3.5 so they were theoretically different kinds of health along side HP that's my leading reasoning as to why the score existed.

[@the11382]

Ability score damage technically still exists in 5e, see the Shadow. It drains strength, which gets restored on short or long rest.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Ability score damage has always been a thing? Not just 3.5. Pretty sure I remember seeing rules for it at least as far back as my old AD&D box set, and even in 5e there are special attacks that drain ability scores, plus often serious injuries (like losing an eye or a finger or something) will have a DM adjudicate ability score decreases (even if temporarily until you can get some major magical healing like regeneration).

[@MrPalp]

Nice video. My favourite attribute spread from an RPG are the 9 (Kinda 10) from Chronicles of Darkness. They are Intelligence, Wits, Resolve, Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Presence, Manipulation, Composure. A big reason for that is how they are clearly used and divided. First they can be divided by mental, physical and social with 3 in each in the order I wrote them. But then also like this: Power: Intelligence, Strength, Presence. Finesse: Wits, Dexterity, Manipulation Resistance: Resolve, Stamina, Composure Those two relations and that each of the three categories have all three gives you a very clear picture of how and when each are to be used. There is also a Size attribute. It always irks me when RPGs do not have a size attribute! Iti s more secondary though as for human like adult characters it is almost always 5, except 6 with a merit (Kind of a perk). Important for non human stuff though, or children.

[@stevdor6146]

Well. Size matters, but its (usually) not something you can add points to as you level up. I think thats a clear distinction from ability scores (which can improve over time) and character traits (static effects)

[@MrPalp]

@@stevdor6146 Yeah, I agree, it is usually treated differently in that manner.

[@linkatronic]

As someone who dabbled in making their own system, it's hard to escape the shadow of the DnD's six stats. Thanks for the breakdown and history!

[@shamanspointofview8083]

As a designer myself, it’s easy tbh, you just have to think outside the box, for instance, my system accounts for light medium and heavy armor by adding power as medium compared to light armor and heavy armor being dex and strength respectively I added other stats to spread things around Like for instance, why not have a magical stat? It’s easy to see why all spellcasters are mental and social stats over something specific to their abilities like dex and strength are to their classes

[@shamanspointofview8083]

also, I call this belief the “ogl curse”, it has even effected video games, movies, literature, and more

[@Ixarus6713]

​​@@shamanspointofview8083 I personally _may or may not have_ borrowed Fates's magic circuits system. (With custom calculators for it!) It adds some bonuses to spells depending on your other stats and gives a better look at how powerful different nagic users actually are, as well as implementing a magic disabling mechanic, potentially even allowing the complete destruction of their ability to spellcast. (Yeah it's still a little flawed as it uses your spellcasting stat as the initial calculation value, but I think the cool applications outweighs that.) I remember seeing another video which suggested something akin to a "badassery" stat, (Edit: Chutzpah! That was it!) which determines how easily you do something completely mad. I'll probably implement both because I'm a sadist. 😂😂

[@shamanspointofview8083]

@@Ixarus6713 we used a training system ranging from untrained to master, each stage adds more to the rolls for to hit and skills, this makes skill level matter a lot, also, spells and weapons have added functionality as their training levels go up

[@Subject_Keter]

I personally hate the Six Abilities so I use Fallout Special system, i feel like that generally shows a character potential over DnD

[@jamesanderson6769]

Excellent breakdown Bob. I always told my players that Intelligence was your book smarts and Wisdom was your mental alertness. I think it is easiest to explain the difference by giving examples of characters who have a high stat in one and a low stat in another. The absent minded professor has a high Int and low Wis. They know a lot of facts and can figure stuff out, but are generally unaware of the world around them. Animals on the other hand have a low intelligence and high wisdom. They may not be able to figure out how to solve problems, but they are hyper alert. In other words, Intelligence is how much you know about the world, and Wisdom is how aware of it you are. Two things that usually get rolled into these two stats are cunning and spirituality. Depending on the setting these attributes might be more relevant. Edge of the Empire splits Intelligence and Cunning and I really like the way they do it. Intelligence is your book smarts and Cunning is your street smarts. And all the rogue skills like picking locks fall under that. One of the things that bothers me is when a game has stats that are only important for the class that uses them and I think 5e falls victim to this. Yes, each class has a stat that is important for the job they are meant to be doing, but being lackluster at something should matter beyond a suggestion to role play your character. My 3.5 half orc barbarian has an abysmal intelligence score and it bites me one way or the other most game sessions.

[@dustronyt4565]

my favorite example (maybe not precise enough but still) on Int n Wis difference is Int is when you won't eat poisonous berry cause you have read about it in a book Wis is when you won't eat it cause you saw someone got sick after doing so x)

[@shocknix]

Hot Take: Using only Modifiers and Combining Mental Scores is only popular because most designers don't think outside the box. Certain features could be bases on score (You have 15 power points because you have a Charisma score of 15). Or having skills or features change based on which mental score you use. If I roll a 17, I should have 17, 17 + X, or 17 - X of something. But no one ever thinks of what that something could be.

[@stewi009]

My favourite part of this video was Ryan Stiles just hanging out in the background and not getting referenced at all. Welp, I'm off to buy that buildings book, because that's an area of D&D that Shadowdark still hasn't solved for me, and I'm willing to bet your rules will be simple and clean enough to just slot right in. Also... something about... supporting my favourite creators... or some sappy shit like that.

[@bc4198]

My favorite alternatives that I've seen are in "Amazing Tales" and "Lasers & Feelings" 😊. "Kids on Bikes" is good, too. But nostalgically, I ❤ tables 😂

[@matheuscordeiroKH]

When thinking about a system to play some specific sceneries with friends, I used as stats "Strength, Dexterity, Vitality (basically constitution), Mind (intelligence and wisdom together), and Soul (Charisma, Magic Power, and Lucky, together). And I made the status a lot lower, so I don't need to use modifiers, just the stats itself, I haven't played a whole table yet, but at my tests, this is being a lot simpler to write and to adapt to any world I want to play

[@The_memory_be_green]

i adore how this channel is basically a dnd history show sometimes

[@bigboxofstuff]

Great Video! It's important to me to let you know I have been watching for a while and every video I get something out of. Sadly I started getting into playing just before 2020 didn't even get to play until it was mostly over and was still doing that online and then the whole OGL thing hit. So just getting started with TTRPGs was difficult for me. But thanks to you, Critical Role, DND shorts, professor DM, the Dungeon Dudes, Jocat and so many others I got to fill the hole not being able to play was filled. I want to thank all of you for what you do! Have a great holiday season and a great new year!

[@lyowin]

In the system I am currently developing I changed wisdom to "Senses" and never looked back. Never once had to explain to players the difference from intelligence and it reflects whatever skills wisdom should encompass.

[@Pijetlo91]

In my own TTRPG system, I've narrowed it down to 4: strength, dexterity, intelligence and wit. Strength and Intelligence would be acquaint to "raw power" whereas dexterity and wit would be "finesse" with using such raw power. I feel like it's easier to balance and still does a decent job at describing the characters in an intuitive way.

[@rommdan2716]

Hmm... I don't know, stats numbers not being a multiple of 3 doesn't feel right

[@shamanspointofview8083]

@@rommdan2716agreed, I added more, and 9 didn’t fit properly so we ended up with 12 and it’s perfect

[@shieldgenerator7]

how do you determine how much health a player has?

[@Pijetlo91]

@@shieldgenerator7 pretty much everyone has 100 HP (some species have a bit more or less but that's the jist of it). And at every level you get to choose talents and some of them increase your maximum HP. This makes it that it's not a viable escape strategy for your archetype barbarian to rage and jump off a cliff.

[@Pijetlo91]

@@shamanspointofview8083 What are these 12? How many (if any) skills does your system have?

[@MagusDouken]

I think the way I like to differentiate Int and Wis is Learned Knowledge vs Applied Knowledge. You read up on history and arcana, but you had to work on your perception and survival traits to make the key notes that aid you.

[@josephpilkus1127]

Great video and I thoroughly enjoyed your time on RFC and your story of attending PAX Unplugged in my city.

[@paulschirf9259]

Favorite game ability scores? Human Occupied Landfill (HOL) uses Meat, Feet, Mouth, Greymatta, and Nuts. These are basically Strength, Dexterity, Charisma, Intelligence, and Resolve respectively, but like most things in HOL, they need to be expressed in a way that makes the inner 12 year old want to giggle. A few of my favorite skills are: "Operate Starship and Chew Gum at the Same Time", "Whining Until You Get What You Want", and "Making Sharp Things Go Through Soft Things That Scream and Bleed".

[@amelialonelyfart8848]

I know this is not super related but it for some reason reminded me of the old WWE RPG that was based off D&D to at least some extent, and used the core six in really weird ways. Apparently John Cena was a "Wisdom-focused" wrestler.

[@beancounter2185]

I loved the editing in the first several seconds of the video. 😊

[@frankb3347]

Would be cool if you covered the SHAZAM hypothesis and the influence of Ars Magica on the evolution of the mechanics from 3E onward.

[@daddyrolleda1]

As far as I know, that SHAZAM hypothesis is mine that I mention in the video Bob linked to on my channel (at least, I've never heard it before and if someone else has mentioned it, which is entirely possible, I'm not aware of it!). Cheers!

[@frankb3347]

@@daddyrolleda1 I believe you were the first to propose the hypothesis. Sorry I couldn't remember where I had originally heard it to credit you. It's a intriguing idea. I think you're really onto something there.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

WTF is the SHAZAM hypothesis? I even looked up the daddy rolled a 1 youtube channel and none of the videos had that in the title, so a little help identifying this obscure reference (google turns up nothing other than the SHAZAM movie) would be nice.

[@frankb3347]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe the early creators of D&D were influenced by the comics they grew up on. A very popular one at the time was SHAZAM. Which stands for the Wisdom of Solomon, Strength of Hercules, Stamina (Constitution) of Atlas, Power of Zeus, Courage of Achilles, and Speed (Dexterity) of Mercury. It's not an exact match with what is found in D&D but it's pretty darn close all things considered.

[@Odds_And_Ents]

i recently made a character for City of Mists, and really liked that things like stats and abilities were all simple phrases you make based of your character concept. Now i do like games with hard and fast mechanics, but sometimes its fun to play something with a unique take to help me come up with more unique characters or ideas.

[@AlecSorensen]

In creating my homebrew, I used 10 core stats into two categories (talents and archetypes). This allows you to mix and match stats and "class" to create 25 unique combinations. You don't have to design class combinations to make the fighter class "work" with different stats. You simply create characters a fighter whose prime stat is their intelligence. The 5 that represent your talents: *Charming* (charisma), *Deft* (dex), *Smart* (observation/knowledge/reasoning) *Strong* (str + con), and *Wise* (intuition/knowledge of supernatural powers or beings). The other 5 represent your archetype or class: *Creator* (anyone who makes and repairs), *Expert* (anyone who focuses on knowledge or investigation), *Fighter* (fighting and protecting), *Prowler* (sneaking and manipulating), *Traveler* (from low level skills like running/climbing to vehicles to navigation and geography). Basically, you can roll against both your talent and your archetype if they are relevant and add your successes. So *Smart* *Fighter* could roll against both on a question of tactics/reading opponents/research on warfare, but only against *Fighter* for swinging a sword, and only against "Smart" for researching politics. Obviously, some pairings are going to be quite common, such as Smart Expert, Deft Prowler, and Strong Soldier. Some are rarer: deft expert, for example, has little overlap between quick reflexes and research, although quick reflexes/quick observational skills might be the perfect way to represent a streetwise orphan. You can't use more than one talent or archetype at a time (and by default characters just start with one of each), but you can develop breadth (or "multiclass") by putting experience points into any talent or archetype you desire.

[@fortunatus1]

The difference between Intelligence and Wisdom is epitomized in the differences between the two characters Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. Tony Stark is as smart as they come. The most brilliant guy possibly in the whole MCU. But he is reckless, self-absorbed, abuses alcohol, and womanizes. He's so smart that he cannot fathom that the first thing that pops into his head is not always the best thing to do. Steve: "Stark, we need a plan of attack!" Tony: "I have a plan... ATTACK!" A wise person, like Steve, is thoughtful, discusses plans with others, exercises good judgment, acts based on past experiences. He doesn't usually do the first thing that pops into his head. He pays attention to details among people (perception/insight) and animals (animal handling) not just in engineering or science. It's the main reason why Steve is the leader of the Avengers and Tony is the science guy.

[@the8626]

so basically intillect vs decision-making.

[@francescobianchi595]

Are you THE Bob THE world builder? (Jk kidding man, love your content). Keep it up!

[@connordarvall8482]

Fun fact, there's a game from the late '70s called RuneQuest which was originally modifying parts of D&D. The flavour of their fantasy world is a lot less scientific and a lot more animistic. As a result, Wisdom, being no different from Intelligence, was swapped out for a stat known as Power. Power is an odd concoction of spiritual strength, luck and favour of the gods and spirits. Charisma became a powerful magic stat as most sources of magic are autonomous beings with personalities and opinions. As a result, it is used to dictate how many spells you can carry as it dictates how many spirits were willing to hang around and how many favours your gods are willing to give you. Additionally, they added a new stat known as Size which improves damage and initiative with melee attacks at high levels and improves your stealth and agility at low levels.

[@malcolmhays2726]

Gary Gygax's other role playing game, Dangerous Journeys: Mythus expanded on stats a bit. Each character has a Mental, Physical, and Spiritual TRAIT score. Each Trait is broken down into two CATEGORIES. Each category is further broken down into three ATTRIBUTES. So you start out with a total of 18 ATTRIBUTE scores instead of 6. It actually worked out pretty well for the most part. Attribute scores determine your starting skills and abilities. Your Trait scores determine your current max potential in mental, physical, or spiritual areas. There are no modifiers as used in Dungeons and Dragons. Instead, the Attribute scores do reflect how well you are able to perform any skill. Each Vocation (class) starts out with a base level in certain skills and then adds combinations of attributes to determine the final score, which can be improved over time through study, training, education, experience, and practice (i.e., spending XP to increase the skills).

[@richmeads1897]

I may be unhealthily obsessed with this topic, and it's surprisingly hard to find good deep dives on stat design, as a thing. Really good to see a video on it! I have a real beef with D&D's physical abilities - specifically from the perspective of easy readability, and presenting clear archetypes to new players. STR, DEX, CON makes sense for war games (Att / Movement / HP works for units on a battlefield). But for portraying *character* archetypes they're woeful. Ask a new player to imagine a high strength character, and it'll probably be a big, muscled type. Then ask them to imagine a high constitution character and they'll... basically imagine the same person? That's two out of six stats (33% of your conceptual design space) dedicated to the 'big strong guy' archetype, with tons of redundancy and overlap. Meanwhile, DEX is left doing the heavy lifting for everything from archers to monks to fencers to thieves to acrobats to gunslingers. I find it hard to imagine being strong, but not resilient and hardy. So STR/CON doesn't seem like a hugely important distinction to design in such a granular way. On the other hand, I can easily imagine how your ability to do parkour doesn't make you a skilled locksmith or card shark. So DEX feels way too broad. The STR/CON/DEX triangle is also a bit unbalanced in terms of mechanical function. STR is primarily an attack stat, CON is primarily defence, DEX is... both? Admittedly 5e has reigned this in from 3.5's utter dominance of DEX-based dual-wielders, but still: A first-time player will read the above and think "Well, I'll obviously take DEX, then. It does both." How to fix this? In my games, I either: Merge STR and CON into a single "toughness" stat and pair that with DEX. Or I split DEX into two stats, eg. 'agility' and 'finesse', in order to better match the att/def pairing of STR and CON. Does anyone else have thoughts along similar lines? And does anyone know where I could find more in-depth discussion of this part of game design?

[@n4tune8]

This is also one of my favorite subjects, and I agree on many points with you. Personally, I like to use Fortitude, Reflex (agility), Perception (precision, memory and intelligence) and Willpower (charisma) as stats in my games. Dexterity is too broad, covering both hand-eye coordination and movement based agility. Wisdom doesn't really mean anything... you acquire it by getting older, more mature. I could go on and on about this... peace!

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Yeah, it's not perfect, but I like the STR, DEX, Willpower trio to summarize character abilities.

[@digitaljanus]

Can your average powerlifter easily run a marathon? About as easily as a long-distance runner could press 400 lbs over their head I'm guessing. All attributes are going to be over simplified abstractions of things that are way more complex in real life. Like you imply, there's no one size fits all approach that will work for every game, it depends on what fantasy the game is trying to embody. In the 1970s D&D that was more survival horror than heroic fantasy and a not insignificant number of low-level dungeon denizens had poison that instantly killed you on a failed save, the realistic randomness of sometimes physically unimpressive people surviving things that more fit or athletic people succumb to was justified by the randomness of rolling a low STR and high CON. Gary Gygax's canonical example of 18 Constitution was Rasputin, who was allegedly fed poisoned tea, poisoned cupcakes, poisoned wine, and then shot in chest with a revolver, none of which killed him. It took another 2 bullets to finally kill him. (In reality this account was probably greatly exaggerated, but other people in the real world who weren't built like Captain America have survived incredible injuries that killed more physically impressive people.) For the record the Cyberpunk 2020 TTRPG does have a single stat, Body, for strength, stamina, and resilience--no idea if its modern iteration Cyberpunk RED does the same.

[@shamanspointofview8083]

Um hey, I use 12 stats and have been designing ttrpg systems for two decades, I’m down to talk, you have discord or Guilded?

[@stevenclark2188]

I kind of liked West End's literal separation of Dexterity and Agility where dexterity is what you used to fiddle around trying to defuse the bomb and agility was what you used trying jump for cover so you don't lose another clone.

[@ingiford175]

Paranoia?

[@xheralt]

@@ingiford175 The Computer Is Your Friend.

[@ingiford175]

@@xheraltComputer: 2+2 =5 please recalibrate your equipment accordingly.

[@romanista77]

Great video Bob! Would love to see more content like this!

[@dmnyght8247]

I just picked up the Bases & Businesses PDF from ya, as it sounds like a good idea, was really cheap, and I am also a fan of your TY channel! :D

[@DorsonKieffer]

I love the way that Frontier Scum handles ability scores. They use 1d4 - 1d4 = the modifier. Gives you a range of -3 to +3. Simple.

[@davidioanhedges]

That's an initial range of 7 - DnD has an initial range of 5 which can go up to a range of 7 ... do the modifiers change Frontier Scum ?

[@DorsonKieffer]

@@davidioanhedges Yeah. They can.

[@SlocumJoe7740]

Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility and Luck. is a far better Stat layout. I love D&D but always have been a Fallout Fan since the 90s and Luck being a Stat is once of my favorite touches

[@half55-qo1tq]

Unfortunately it's not that easy to incorporate luck i a board since it affects almost anything

[@half55-qo1tq]

I like fallout and it's stat system, but in first 2 games agility is way too powerful

[@yuvalne]

+

[@noukan42]

​@@half55-qo1tq it depend. On a d100 system is easy. Even +18 won't break anything and it would ve much less than the "proper stat".

[@alexo_pog]

the fallout layout really is superior, the characteristics make sense and luck can be removed from the set if needed

[@grr-OUCH]

There are three reasons to keep the numbers: 1. They allow you to have a way to roll attributes (even though I personally prefer point-buy, as do many game systems that I play). 2. They allow you to increase them incrementally. In D&D this is done by levelling up or taking Feats that improve an attribute. 3. They allow you to have races, spells, and magical items that increase (or reduce) them by increments (usually +1 or +2). "Basic" D&D had a flat modifier that is more like how it is in 5e. AD&D had tables of all of the effects of each attribute modifier. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution had the most. Intelligence and Wisdom mostly just gave bonus spells to Wizards and Clerics. Charisma had a limit to the number of henchmen and some other modifiers, but in most groups I played was generally a "dump stat" because we usually did not bother with hirelings.

[@JKevinCarrier]

The old DC Heroes RPG had an interesting array of stats. Each character had 3 Physical Attributes: Dexterity, Strength, and Body, 3 Mental Attributes: Intelligence, Will, and Mind, and 3 Mystical Attributes: Influence, Aura, and Spirit In each category, the first attribute determines your chance to hit with that type of attack, the second determines how much damage you do, and the third is how much of that kind of damage you can take before being knocked out. Outside of combat, you used the same Attributes for skill rolls. If Batman is searching a crime scene for clues, he'd roll based on his Intelligence to see if he found anything, and his Will would determine how much information he gets from it. Very elegant, and no ambiguity about what each stat means or does.

[@sinemi3]

Call of Cthulhu has Appearance, so there's that. Also, size. One thing that you didn't mention is the way that raw stat numbers worked in 2e (and I believe 1e with unearthed arcana?), with the roll under ability checks (and proficiency checks), which is basically what d100 games use today, adding some kind of level of success measure (WFRP and CoC).

[@elfbait3774]

There is some merit to having more stats and that is granularity. By having sice as opposed to 3 (or however many fewer) you create more axis along which modifiers, conditions, effects and any number of other game rules can be constructed. Too few stats can lead to a game feeling too simple and, potentially worse, bland and without texture.

[@shamanspointofview8083]

I’ve been playtesting my own system for almost a year with amazing success, we have 12 stats and play testers love it and it’s not complicated or hard to learn, it’s actually very intuitive when you can guess which stat, property, or skill you need to do something

[@elfbait3774]

@@shamanspointofview8083 I have always been a fan of systems that split Dexterity and Agility/Speed. You can be good with your hands but not overly nimble.

[@Efrello]

The real problem is not the number of stats per se, but the fact that to be great at all your class fields of interest some classes only really need one and some others need three. Edit: Ant the disparity of importance in connected abilities and related saves.

[@shamanspointofview8083]

@@Efrello tbc, we solved all these issues with more stats and added properties, no playtesters in a year have had issues understanding them, or what they are used for, it is the number of stats, dexterity can’t mean all it does in the game, you could have crap Ballance but be amazing at picking locks, and the properties Ames this even simpler, by having three properties to a stat, you can spread out what each stat is and therefore decrease the overlap to darn near non existent

[@shamanspointofview8083]

@@elfbait3774 in my game, vitality and movement speeds come from your species and race selection, this has also allowed us to make classic versions of fantasy species while also turning trends on their heads, for instance our game has a race of elves who are very much warfaring and against magic, and a set of orcs who are magically inclined But yeah, we have twelve stats and it works amazingly well

[@ProfessorAragorn]

When I first read about how DND uses the 6 ability scores back in 3rd edition - I was all like "These are the abilities we all need to have in life" and to me it makes sense. People can be strong but not fast or agile or they can be agile but low in stamina. You have smart people all the time who will have a low wisdom score because all they've read is accumulated knowledge. And being popular and good looking and able to interact with on a social level is perfect for Charisma. I think Wisdom is more about sensation as well - intuition versus cold reptilian logic. A high intelligence but low charisma/wisdom character is often putting their foot in their mouth and overlooking obvious solutions. A high wisdom character with average intelligence and low wisdom probably doesn't talk much but is observant and picks opportune moments to spout sage wisdom to a more charismatic person who can lead better whereas a high charisma, low intelligence, average wisdom character will mispronounce words and make mistakes - but by god they are so good at commanding a room/audience and able to own up to anything that could shame em.

[@stevdor6146]

Bullies always had the best charisma in grade school

[@csdn4483]

Couple things, even under AD&D and 2E, your attributes played into aspects of rolls and damage. They affected physical damage, they affected your AC, they affected your initiative, they affected your saves. Only when it came to magic, they didn't do as much (outside of your saves). Also, Comeliness didn't come in until 1.5E with Unearthed Arcana, up to that point it was a function of Charisma. In 2E, it was an optional rule and only there if you wanted it, otherwise it fell back to Charisma again for looks.

[@linkow]

I have no idea if this ever occurred to Gygax when coming up with the basic attributes, but it always made sense to me, and I suppose he instinctively came to the same conclusion as many others before him. The whole thing is very elegant. Human nature has been divided into three parts since ancient times. From Plato's tripartite theory of soul: epithymetikon (bodily desires), thymoeides (reflective passions), and logistikon (intellect and thinking), to Freud's personality theory: id (instinct), ego (reality), and superego (morality). It seems you can endlessly break reality down into three parts, especially when it concerns humans, and they will always relate to the three core of the human soul: Body, Heart, and Mind. Guts, heart, and brains. The individual, the culture, and the society. Instincts, feelings, and thoughts. Even the Bible seems to recognize that. Jesus was tempted to turn stone to bread to sate his hunger (Body), to make a public display of power, jumping from the top of the temple to show his pride (Heart), and to accept rulership over every nation without having to go through the pain and humiliation of the cross (Mind). He overcame every one of the three and thus he's said to have been tempted in every aspect of human life. Add to each core an active and a passive aspect, and you get the 6 basic attributes. Body: Strength (Active) and Constitution (Passive). Heart: Dexterity (Active) and Charisma (Passive). Mind: Intelligence (Active) and Wisdom (Passive). You can also note that STR, CON, and DEX are physical attributes, while CHA, INT, and WIS are mental (or metaphysical) attributes. The Heart has one foot in the physical world and the other in the metaphysical world, sitting between the Body and the Mind, like it always does.

[@valutaatoaofunknownelement197]

I've never noticed that correlation between the body, heart, and mind before. Great comment.

[@Briandnlo4]

I remember “Comeliness!” It was introduced in an issue of Dragon Magazine, and I happened to pick up that issue. It was our back-in-the-day version of UA. Here’s something you’ll almost never hear. I LIKE how Shadowrun does Abilities. They have eight, essentially the same six as D&D, but with DEX split into Agility (active/offensive) and Reaction (passive/defensive), and WIS split into Willpower (passive/defensive) and Intuition (active/offensive). This keeps either of them; especially in the case of DEX in D&D; from becoming the god stat you can mix-max a whole character build around. Note: When I describe an Attribute as “active/offensive” or “passive/defensive,” I’m speaking in terms of whether you’re rolling with that stat to resolve the outcome of your own intentions, or if the GM is having you roll with that stat to resolve the outcome of forces acting upon you. If you’ve never played Shadowrun, it’s a “Dice Pool” system using only d6s scabbed from your Yahtzee, Parcheesi, Sorry, and Monopoly games. You want the biggest dice pool possible, and each of your stats; Abilities, Skills, and some gear, are true numerical reflections of how many dice they put into your pool. It gets nuts. When I run a game, I bring 68 d6s, split among three dice trays.

[@Baalek1]

One thing i appreciate about Against the Darkmaster, a retroclone of MERP (with some D&D elements) is that it's dropped ability/stat scores altogether, turning what would be the modifier into a number which plugs directly into skill rolls.

[@pupstarproduction15]

So happy to see daddy rolled a one get a shout out. I really been enjoying his historic walk though of tsr. But again another banger videos from you bob

[@mangermatilla1538]

Good lesson thank you for the video ☺️

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Nice history lesson Good stuff

[@ChrisNihilus]

Having played several dozens RPGs, I think the best set of stats in term of completeness and clearness are those from World of Darkness. It's a 3x3 matrix, with Physical, Mental and Social stats, and Power, Finess and Resiliance. So you have 9 stats but each is very clear on what it is and where to look for it. Mental finess is Wits, Social resistance is Composure, Physical Power is Strenght and so on.

[@Gemini-Lion]

The way that I recently learned to differentiate Intelligence and Wisdom is best explained by the difference between Investigation representing intelligence and Perception representing Wisdom. Wisdom is used in quick pace without attention to detail. Intelligence, however, is when you call upon previous experience and lessons previously learned, or paying attention to the the little details. Medicine makes sense for this explanation of wisdom as well, since keeping someone from dying is something that requires quick thinking.

[@kyokasuigetsu8485]

Love the human evolution/degeneration transcribe into DnD version.

[@indef2def]

In Korea, tomato is very common in a fruit salad. Meanwhile, low-WIS Americans put pineapple on pizza!

[@user-jt1js5mr3f]

That makes me a high-WIS American, I suppose xD

[@maromania7]

salty and savory goes well with sweet and acidic, it's the entire reason tomatoes are used for the sauce to begin with.

[@user-jt1js5mr3f]

@@maromania7 and some tastes just don’t work for some people

[@mostlyghostey]

I’ve always thought of intelligence as having general knowledge, gained from books, lectures, or life experiences and wisdom is knowing how to implement that knowledge safely and effectively.

[@theGhoulman]

@1:58 my buddies and I loved Boot Hill. I don't remember much except my pal Greg had a sharpshooter named Molasses. :D

[@AchanhiArusa]

That poster above your computer was the cover of the very first Dragon Magazine I ever owned (it was a Christmas gift from a friend who has now passed away). Anyway, Perception was an ability score that appeared in Dragon 133 which resurfaced many years later as the Senses Score in Gamma World 4th Edition. When Greg Stafford made Runequest he added a Size stat, replaced Wisdom with Power, and Charisma with Appearance (much like Comeliness, just not as disruptive) and Call of Cthulhu added Luck and Education. And Social Status was an ability score in both Traveller and later in "A Mighty Fortress" for AD&D 2nd. Ars Magica divided Charisma into Presence and Communication AND Dexterity into Dexterity and Reflexes (that last division made it into ShadowRun and Mechwarrior). White Wolf used the same physical stats as D&D, but had a trio of Social and Mental Stats. Buck Rogers XXVc (which used 2nd Edition AD&D as its Engine) added a Technological Knowledge (TECH) as a stat. And AD&D 2nd: Skills and Powers used subabilities Strength was divided into Muscle and Stamina, Dexterity into Aim and Balance, Constitution into Health and Fitness, Intelligence into Reason and Knowledge, Wisdom into Intuition and Willpower, and Charisma into Leadership and Appearance.

[@1965GJS13]

Who remembers AD&D v2.5 (aka: "Skills & Powers"), where there were actually *12* stats!? Each of the basic 6 stats were split into 2 sub-stats, so Strength was split into Muscle & Stamina, Charisma was split into Leadership & Appearance etc etc. Then you rolled the main stat and then assigned the sub-stats how you wanted, as long as they averaged no more than the main stat, and were no more than 2-points different. So if you had a 15 Strength, you could have up to a 17 Muscle, but then would have to have a 13 Stamina. Boy did the character sheets get complicated......!

[@ingiford175]

I kind of remember another system that had like 4 base stats and 2 stats under each, but can not remember what it was.

[@Whitewolf1984p]

Inteligence is knowing the entrace ahead would be a GREAT place for a trap. Wisdom is knowing how to spot the trap

[@danielcrafter9349]

They're both knowledges; they're the same thing, just from different approaches In the same way that swinging a great axe and swinging a great sword are different approaches... but they're both Strength

[@MyFireVideos]

Hey Bob, thanks for the video.

[@digitaljanus]

The most interesting stats system I ever saw was from this indie RPG (whose name I unfortunately forget) I played at a convention once. The creator mapped the stats to body parts. "Head" was your stat for knowledge checks and perception/investigation, and I think social checks, but the scenario didn't have many opportunities for the latter. "Torso" was anything stamina related, the ability to resist damage, poison, etc.. "Arms" was generally anything more fine motor control/hand-eye coordination related, like fighting, shooting, throwing, crafting, picking locks and pockets, etc. "Legs" was anything gross motor control related, like jumping, climbing, swimming, stealth, running. (I think there was also a "Spirit" stat that represented luck, willpower, resistance to mental attacks, and possibly magic ability but the scenario we played didn't have magic.) But you could negotiate in cases of overlap, like arguing your Arms could be useful in a climbing check. I only played the one game with it but it was interesting enough that I'd be curious to see the design used again.

[@SeamusDobbin]

I know that Monsters and Other Childish Things uses a similar dice pool system and that's a personal favorite!

[@GOREilla.]

Man... What a great work you've been doing around here, uh? Just found out your channel and love your style, it's like my table: we make the rules after all, let's have fun. I started DnD at 3rd edition, and played other ones before, like the White Wolf universe. And after all this time, they're all almost the same rules, it's about the fantasy!

[@QuadalupeThe3rd]

Intelligence is your ability to solve riddles and pussles and thinking in tricky situations. Wisdom is knowing your surroundings and what something is. Intelligence is when you calculating 3×3 and finding the awnser. Wisdom is knowing the awnser is 9.

[@haydenbuters4659]

At 2.28 the corner text reads: "Nice perception there, bud". Saved you the pausing video game.

[@llywyllngryffyn8053]

I started playing D&D over 40 years ago. I stuck with it from Basic D&D and AD&D all the way through D&D 3.5. I also owned Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes RPG and a bunch of other stuff that TSR (The grandparents of the game, before Magic the Gathering made Wizards of the Coast so rich they decided to buy it out) So, I've seen a lot of games and stat systems. I've played a few games that had really short stat lists, like BODY, MIND, SPIRIT but I've also played them with 10 or even 15 stats. The reason for all the stats is simple enough: if you are playing a Role Playing Game to Role Play, you frequently find it hard to accept that "This One State" covers so many things. The D&D stats do make a lot of sense. Much more than what you put into this video. Back in the second edition of D&D, (I am pretty sure it was 2nd at this point) they divided the six Stats up into 2 sub-stats. You didn't 'Have' to split your stat, if you didn't want to, but you could, if you wanted to customize your character and make them more interesting or more effective. For instance, your Strength Stat was broken dwon into Muscle and Brawn. One of them affected your damage with a weapon and the ohter determined how much weight you could carry and not be encumbered. If you really wanted to be a damage dealer but were less concerned about carrying a ton of gear on your back, you would shift two of your stat points toward teh Muscle side, subtracting them from your Brown. So you would have a 16 STR for instance, but you would have an 18 Muscle and a 14 Brawn. (2 was the limit) So you could dish out damage as if you had an 18 natural STR but you could only carry gear as if you had a 14 STR. They had division for each stat and they made a lot of sense. WIS was Intuition and Willpower BTW. DEX covered manual dextierity which was just called AIM since that is the part that most people wanted and Agility which affected your AC. Over the years, I've found that people who just want to play for the Beat-em-ups are happy with fewer stats, most of the time, while people who want to really have a defined character to Role Play with are happier with a few more stats that make things make more sense. (Just because your Character has big bulging muscles like a weight lifter, doesn't mean he can run a marathon, or up six flights of stairs, or dodge an arrow, or shrug off a taser. Just because you can do a SUDOKU in ninety seconds doesn't mean you know how to talk to girls or can determine when the shop keeper is lying to you about the quality of the product. Character archetypes tend to have contradictory elements that don't make sense unless you can show how they differ. The skinny rogue who can't pick up the portcullis but knows how to unlcok it with a sliver of metal.. or who can dodge arrows because they are wiry and nimble... Speaking of which, you could have someone who was a Fat, Slow, Rogue who was still a master locksmith with all of those stats back then... tougher to do now. If you have a +5 Dex mod, you have to accept that someone who can pick a lock can also dodge arrows even if they are missing a leg. (Well OK, I suppose missing a leg probably ges you a special circumstance penalty, but you see what i mean.) Being able to manipulate things with your hands does not automatically translate to being agile. Being Stubborn doesn't mean you make wise decisions or are empathic. Just because you are physically attractive, doesn't mean you know how to win over a crowd of people wit your words.

[@elwourmo993]

I always liked how german TTRPG DSA did stats: dex is split into manual dexterity (picking locks, crafting, complicated handmotions) and agility (flips and sneaking), courage is it's own stat and the wisdom analog is called intuition to clearly show what it means. your attack stats combine from three of those, swinging a sword needs courage,agility and strength. shooting a bow needs strength, dex and intuition etc. the System can be a bit clunky but I like that different attributes are needed for a single action and you are free to specalize into one or keep them even. As a DM I usally tried to reference that. the elven fighter is an elegant swordsman where the dwarf just puts all his power into the strike and another human fighter is never afraid to trade blows with opponents and trust in his armor to take the hit.

[@haydenbsiegel]

For the MUD I was designing before my current D&D campaign I wanted to create my own system. I don't think it would work on a table but on a game where the PC is secretly rolling dice it does. I did it as follows. Physical Attributes Strength - Physical ability to lift, drag, or pull objects. Fortitude - External ability to withstand pain or damage, ie scratches upon the flesh or a punch. Constitution - Internal ability to withstand pain or damage, ie poisons ingested or sickness. Dexterity Attributes Coordination - Hand eye coordination, ie balance, ability to react, and grace. Quickness - Speed and swiftness, ie speed at which someone runs or how fast they can react. Awareness - Ability to perceive one's surroundings, ie spotting something or ability to notice something that can be reacted to. Mental Attributes Intelligence - Theoretical knowledge, ie academic pedigree and amount of subjects or skills known. Wisdom - Empirical knowledge, ie life experience and amount of knowledge about a subject or skill. Intuition - Creativity, ie realization of an opportunity, random inspiration and luck. Attractiveness Attributes Beauty - Physical attractiveness, ie first impressions based on appearance or physical presence. Charisma - Social attractiveness, ie impressions made based on dialog or after prolonged contact. Cool - Ability to remain calm under pressure, ie not crying due to a wound or ability to deal with mental stress. Magic Attributes Power - This attribute is hidden from the player and represents the player's magical abilities from birth. Control - This attribute is hidden from the player and represents the player's ability to control their magical abilities. Spellcraft - This attribute is hidden from the player and represents the player's knowledge of magic.

[@MatsJPB]

I like brawn/speed/smarts/charm as abilities (with varying synonyms depending on setting). I see those as the main approaches one might take to problems; brute force, being quick and nimble, thinking about it, or getting someone else to to help you out. Complemented with a bunch of skills.

[@crabman3144]

I'm writing a homebrew system that uses basically the same four stats; Strength, Speed, Mind, and Charm.

[@AlteredGames]

The secondary benefit of hirelings is also, well as you saw on that blackmoor character sheet, old D&D is pretty deadly so when you died you got to take over one of your hirelings (whose max level is one less than yours, as they also gained XP). I also use some of my hirelings to help run my fighters castle in a OSE game we are playing right now, they also had a loyalty score which the DM rolled each month so they might leave and you looked for new ones.

[@Mysteltainne]

Im personally fond of the explanation that charisma is the ability to exert your will, whether that be on people for talking or on the universe for spellcasting.

[@joelsasmad]

I recently broke down some stats for a Dnd inspired game just for fun: Strength- Damage for melee weapons Dexterity- Hit rates for weapoms Agility- Avoidance Spirit- Willpower/Magic Awareness- Perception Intelligence- Knowledge Skills/Spells Known Charisma- Social skills

[@Crazor2000]

bit of off topic but, bob shouted out seth skorkowsky two times in the video. I honestly recommend his channel. he is an ttrpg reviewer and content creator. while most of his reviews are not dnd (mainly Call of Cthulhu and Traveler amongst others) He does post interersting things like RPG Philosophy, where he discusses aspects of the game, from why murder hobo's exist how to deal with them, too how to deal with metagaming. he also posts good system neutral advise on playing ttrpg's, like backstories or player etiquette

[@ivanrichmond3524]

I know people who played OD&D and Holmes Basic back in the 70's, and they tell me that the DM just decided what the ability scores meant. In some modules from that period, you can see examples of this. In Tower of Zenopus, the Holmes Basic sample dungeon, it says that there's a fast flowing underground river and that only people with STR 15+ can swim across. "B1: In Search of the Unknown" and "B3: Palace of the Silver Princess" both have portcullises that can only be opened by a combined STR of a certain amount, like 30. So, there was a very rulings-over-rules feel to old-school ability scores.

[@MegaChiliMac]

Bonus points for using Andre to illustrate strength. :D

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

World of Warcraft (the RPG I am most familiar with) has 5 main stats: Strength, Agility (instead of Dexterity), Intellect (instead of Intelligence and Wisdom), Stamina (instead of Constitution), and Spirit (instead of Charisma). However, these stats of attributes don't work like they do in D&D at all, since they don't do dice rolls. Instead, Strength increases your character's melee damage and is the primary attribute for classes that focus on melee, like Warriors; Intellect increases your mana pool and magic damage and is the primary stat for casting classes like Mages; Agility increases ranged damage and the ability to dodge and is the main stat for ranged classes like Hunters; Stamina increases the amount of hot points and is therefore very useful for all classes, but especially tanks; and Spirit, the least useful state, which mainly just increases how fast your mana regenerates. There is no need for a stat like Charisma, since characters can't persuade anyone else to do anything. There are also lots of different secondary stats (too many, in my opinion).

[@Haexxchen]

I like the shift to: "learning how to have more fun playing RPGs together." I don't play DnD and don't indend to ever. But I consume a lot of DnD content, because it is such a huge community with lots of great input from people.

[@chubbyninja842]

I run a homebrew system that's evolved over many versions and I've weeded out all the stuff I found doesn't actually add to the game. My most recent cut was all of the stats. As it turns out, you don't need them. Everyone is going to build their character in a certain way to optimize their "power set" and at the end, everyone is rolling with roughly the same modifiers for everything they do. The fact that there is a modifier is superfluous since it all equals out in the end. It's an additional step with additional math and rules that if you just drop it altogether, it changes nothing in actual game play other than everything goes faster and is easier to understand.

[@BIGBENMACDOUCE]

Oh I see you played DC20 by the dungeons coach ;). I hope this game becomes big !! Good video as always

[@lukebortot7625]

I remember reading somewhere that the 6 ability scores where basically just taken from a page in the SHAZAM comics. On the page they say that SHAZAM has the strength of Hercules, the Wisdom of Solomon, and so on. I can't find the source of this right now, and they never gave any credit to the comic, but apparently Gygax was a big fan of comic books and SHAZAM was one of the most popular at the time. This theory has never been conformed but it definitely is very plausible.

[@daddyrolleda1]

I mentioned that in my video on the History of D&D's 6 Ability Scores (the same video Bob mentions and links to in his show notes). I've never heard that theory before and made it up independently but it's very possible that theory has been put there before. I was just coincidentally reading a SHAZAM comic while working on notes for my video, and it made sense to me. Cheers!

[@lukkaredwolf3534]

I know that this is Heresy, but I do have to say that I appreciate the Storyteller Systems attribute breakdown. Three categories: mental, physical, social. Three varieties each: Power, Finesse, Resistance. Physical Power - Strength. Physical Finesse - Dexterity. Physical Resistance - Stamina Mental Power - Intelligence, Mental Finesse - Wits, Mental Resistance - Resolve. Social Power - Presence, Social Finesse - Manipulation, Social Resistance - Composure. It does add a lot of breakdown and make it easy to define.

[@tellmeaboutyourgame314]

I've been working on a game for a couple years now (I need to playtest this thing at some point lol). It's intended to run action/adventure stories, maybe with sci-fi or fantasy elements, dealer's choice, but the conceit is that the events are happening within a Hollywood movie. Therefore, the three 'ability scores' are Screen Presence (Charisma/Will), Genre Savvy (Intelligence/Wisdom), and Stunts (Stunts)

[@jengibs]

The Full Version of D&D Stats Explained w/ Tomatoes : Strength is being able to crush a tomato. Dexterity is being able to dodge a tomato. Constitution is being able to eat a bad tomato. Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad. Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad. Credit/Author: tan620

[@pepijnkooij2830]

I was hoping you would include the AD&D 2nd Edition sub-ability list! I always found those quite useful in explaining the normal abilities :)

[@lyrebirb83]

as someone tyhat started near the start of 3.5 can you give me a 60 second elevator pitch?

[@TonkarzOfSolSystem]

​@@lyrebirb83 "Subability" scores is an optional rule where player could divide one or more of the six stats into two subability stats. So strength would be stamina and muscle, dex would be aim and balance, constitution would be health and fitness, intelligence would be reason and knowledge, wisdom would be intuition and willpower, and charisma would be leadership and appearance. Players double the base ability score and then divide the number between the two subability scores (with some limitations). I guess the idea is to allow a greater granularity in character definition and thus support a wider range of character concepts. Not sure how well it succeeds though.

[@ilovethelegend]

What the mental stats are and what they represent is literally described in the book. The tricky/confusing part is how those stats manifest in-game. Like... investigation and perception, for example. Even by the book, the difference between the two isn't really clear; If you're turning a room over looking for something like a hidden key, is that investigation or perception? And then there's the fact that almost every effect that calls for a mental save calls for a wisdom save, especially charm and dominate effects, which kind of steps on Charisma's toes a bit as the stat that represents the force of your presence. Also, there are few edge cases where what your ability score actually is DOES matter; ability damage being the most obvious. Most of the time, there might not be much difference between having a strength of 12 or 13, but when that shadow slaps you, it might make the difference.

[@demetrinight5924]

I have used a comeliness score in some of my early games when I first started playing D&D. But I had it rolled after all the other stats were rolled and distributed where people wanted them. I didn't really have it affect anything unless a player wanted to flirt with an NPC. One player had an 18 comeliness but an 8 charisma. He played his character as attractive but awkward. He was really the only player to use the mechanic. But he used it really well. He had an NPC girlfriend that fell in love with his awkwardness. She was a rogue and he was a fighter. They started dominating the combat portions of games.

[@shadedergu9921]

I always used to describe mental stats like this Int: The ability to process and understand information. One's ability to learn information and handle a lot of information Wis: Is one's resolution of will. The Will/Resilience half of Willpower. One's ability to resist temptation or intuitively know better Cha: The "Power" half of willpower. One's ability to influence and assert its desires over others and the world around them. In the case of the Bard and Sorcerer, sometimes outright warping the world around them

[@hollow6517]

I'd like to share a way i used to solve some Stat ishues; when i used to be a Master in D&d games i would always ask the players to roll for Two Atributes at a time, like "Rol Str and Dex" when they would attack and so on. For everu combination of Stats i gave a name, that would automatically create like other 15 "stats"or so. Worked pretty well :3

[@SSkorkowsky]

Comeliness in the 1e Unearthed Arcana was a glorious hot-mess. Racial Modifiers were all based on human standards, so even dwarves thought each other were ugly, while everyone wanted to bone an elf (which I suppose is true). Then Charisma modified it further. So while all the other stats had the usual 3-18 bell curve, Comeliness was all over the place. It wasn't too difficult to have a PC with a 22 Comeliness which caused a spell-like fascination on you. Most players probably used it as a dump stat (at super-low level people attacked you for being so hideous) but we always had at one PC who was overpowered hot.