Why does the Yijing have ‘backward-moving numbers’?

[@rickschrager]

It has always struck me that the backward moving numbers are related to the King Wen sequence in which (aside from tian and kun) the hexagrams are presented in (inverted) pairs. As the hexagrams are "flipped" the bottom becomes the top and the top becomes the bottom thus we have an apparent backward movement as we view the hexagram and its trigrams from the bottom to the top. This way the first line becomes the sixth line becomes the first line.

[@zhouoracle]

Agreed... I read your comment AFTER I already typed my comment...

[@MysteriousCenter]

I think you are on to something with the idea of numbers going forward and away. Another place we have numbers is the he tu and luo shu. Not only that, but these diagrams are used to determine the cycling of meridians in different ways in different cycles. This usage dates back at least to the yellow emperor's classic on medicine. Perhaps there is more to be found in this direction.

[@gustavovaca8873]

Stuck with this since 1991. Great interpretation. Thank you very much!

[@tristate0mind]

Very long time.

[@tristate0mind]

Amazing insight. Been wondering about this. Quite a long time. Happy New Sanxingdui to u friend! :D

[@YiTubeChannel]

Ah, Sanxingdui...now THAT is an interesting, intriguing and mysterious topic.

[@zhouoracle]

Here is my two cents: This sentence is found in the Shougua chapter therefore it is very likely the meaning of the sentence has to do with the trigrams as suggested in this video. "When the trigrams intermingle, that is, when they are in motion, a double movement is observable: first, the usual clockwise movement, cumulative and expanding as time goes on, and determining the events that are passing; second, an opposite, backward movement, folding up and contracting as time goes on, through which the seeds of the future take form. To know this movement is to know the future. In figurative terms, if we understand how a tree is contracted into a seed, we understand the future unfolding of the seed into a tree." "As in the course of the year, so in human life we find ascending and backward-moving lines of force from which the present and the future can be deduced." Where do we see those backwards running numbers in the text of Yi Jing? Here is one idea: All hexagrams in the received sequence are paired up. The rule for pairing up the hexagrams is that the second hexagram in the pair is a mirrored version of the first hexagram (whenever that is possible). For example Hexagram number 11 Tai (Peace) is paired with hexagram #12 Pi (Stanstill/Stagnation) so one may say that understanding of the future (which would be the second hexagram in the pair) is a matter of reading the first hexagram's numbers backwards, which is exactly what we see with almost all Yi Jing hexagram pairs including this pair: the second hexagram in the pair is nothing but the first hexagram read from the top to the bottom. In other word after the period of Peace comes the time of Standstill/Stagnation. Sincerely yours, www.zhouoracle.net

[@ClarityIChing]

Excellent - makes perfect sense! I think you've cracked it.

[@martijn9290]

Interesting! And all within 25 minutes ;-)

[@YiTubeChannel]

Amazing isn't it.

[@martijn9290]

@@YiTubeChannel yes, good start of 2021. You were mentioning the Siva doc. Would love to hear your take on it. Maybe another vid?

[@YiTubeChannel]

@@martijn9290 The Shifa manuscript is fascinating, but also carries too much riddles to be eligible for a proper video. At least for now.

[@yiwutcmmedicalenlightenmen922]

Thank-you - this is spot on! I puzzled over the meaning of this line in my youth when I knew no chinese. This interpreation makes a lot of sense. In Zhan Guo times there was a lot of scholarly attention on statecraft and the prevention of disorder in society. Shun and Ni werealso terms used to label normality and rebellion.

[@freedda1]

Thank Harmen. My initial, very layperson's response: I'm wondering if this might simply be a reminder that the hexagrams are built from bottom, or first line up to the sixth or last line; whereas in the Yijing, the line texts are written from the first line 'down' to the sixth. In other words, if you were to add an image of each line to accompany the text of each line, it would give you an upside-down hexagram, with the first, lower line being at the top and the 6th upper line at the bottom. Maybe I'm incorrect, or being too simplistic, but that's what came to mind as you were discussing these 'backward moving numbers'.

[@YiTubeChannel]

I think it is more than just a reminder of how hexagrams are built - the sentence has a 'because....therefore...' structure, and relates the numbering to 'knowing what is coming'. The reason that the text uses the 'normal' sequence of 1-6 might simply be because it makes more sense when you have to look up a line text.

[@freedda1]

@@YiTubeChannel - thanks!

[@mrmadmaxalot]

I have a random question not related to this video. When talking of correct and incorrect lines (that is, a yin at a yin place, and a yang at a yang place, or vice versa) does this relate to greater and lesser yin and yang? I have been assuming that a correct line is greater yin or yang, and an incorrect line is lesser yin or yang. It seems correct lines are 'stronger' where incorrect lines are 'weaker' and in more need of support from surrounding lines. Is this a proper way to think of this? Are there other ways to think of it as well? Thanks!

[@YiTubeChannel]

What you are referring to is called dangwei 當位 or zhengwei 正位 in the Chinese literature: it simply means that when a yin occupies an even position, or yang occupies an odd position in the hexagram, it is said it is zheng 正, 'correct'. In the books it does not have anything to do with taiyin, shaoyin etc - it is mainly used to explain the text of the Zhouyi. But your idea is an interesting one and I wouldn't say it is 'improper'. It seems to follow certain principles that are not alien to Chinese philosophy in general, or the Yijing itself, so it's a thought that is worth exploring.

[@ruotze]

To me a backward moving number is taking a large number like say 365 & adding the numbers together 14 to get a smaller number. Then adding 14 to arrive at 5. So the numbers are moving backwards to arrive at a primary number.

[@HenkMelching]

Top!

[@eoalvarez]

Nice. Isn't the result of the six lines the image of the gua? From the image can then one "reverse engineer?"

[@YiTubeChannel]

What do you mean by that, Edwin? Can you elucidate?

[@eoalvarez]

@@YiTubeChannel One counts up when they toss the millfoil or coins. When one already has the image, then they can pull apart the number

[@YiTubeChannel]

@@eoalvarez 'pull apart the number'?

[@Sorraiamustang]

Thank you for sharing your insights however I am not sure your interpretation is correct . It seems fairly obvious ( to me anyways) that this passage has nothing to do with the lines of a hexagram . It is speaking of the chart of the 8 trigrams or 64 hexagrams if you wish to extend it . Many scholars and books such as “ Sung Dynasty Uses of the I Ching “ have grossly misinterpreted this passage . Anyway the key to this passage is the Circular Trigram/ Hexagram chart NOT the lines of the hexagram . Thank You for sharing .

[@YiTubeChannel]

I think you are wrong but I am sure you can explain in detail what you think this passage actually means.

[@Sorraiamustang]

I don’t wish to give a detailed explanation to anyone only for them to claim as their own discovery or misrepresent it . Besides it takes the fun away from solving the mystery . ;) It is always best to take the advice of An Ancient wise master who once said. “ Penetrate things from the view point of things rather than from the view point of the self “. If this can be accomplished One may find many discoveries . What I will say that makes me doubt your theory is why would the passage refer to a hexagram when the Yijing clearly shows the prior heaven trigram chart connected with it ? Is this not a big clue ? Clearly the words in the passage indicates the prior heaven polar attributes within the diagram. Which in turn can be read in a circular forward or backward motion . The passage shows no hexagram relevance either in visual chart form or text unless I am missing something?

[@YiTubeChannel]

Yes, you are missing something when you say, "Clearly the words in the passage indicates the prior heaven polar attributes within the diagram" - as I explained in my video the text from the Shuogua describes a *feature* of the Xiantian Bagua, it does not describe the *complete* Xiantian Bagua. I could make several other trigram circles that contain the same feature of opposite trigrams and they would all confirm to this sentence from the Shuogua but they would not be the Xiantian Bagua. The text does not "show the prior heaven trigram chart connected with it" when all it does describe only one feature of this circle. And as shown by several authors, as mentioned in the video, the Xiantian Bagua is proven do be much later than the Shuogua. Also, the text does not refer to 'a hexagram' but to trigrams.

[@Sorraiamustang]

In ancient and present times many people have connected the passage and chart together. In Wilhelm’s book the pre-heaven chart on page 266 is connected with the passage. It doesn’t matter if these people’s views are right or wrong in making this connection . What is important is that the principles of the charts and passage conform beautifully together. You had mentioned that you can make several trigram circles. Of course you can, and they would all fit the passage. This however would be in disarray as the seasons, time of day, planetary cycles etc. would be completely out of order , so I don’t understand the point you are making there. The passage only fits with the specific order as it is. There is no need to mention any other order. As far as many authors claiming the chart appeared later in the passage, this could be true. No one can say for sure. Keep in mind many of these authors/scholars have also attempted to interpret many other passages unsuccessfully. The conclusions of these scholars are not necessarily ultimate truths. It is my understanding that master Shao connected this exact passage with the pre-heaven chart in TOTALITY . To him it was not just a feature of the chart as is your belief. Master Shao’s learning was intimately connected with pre-heaven and this passage is what motivated him to understand it deeply. Again ,to him it was not a feature, it was the entirety describing the process of reality. The process of this expression can be viewed either forward or backward, depending on whether you are analyzing the past or the future. The passage and the pre-heaven chart are interwoven intimately together. Master shao understood it quite well and utilized it efficiently. When the scholars attempted to describe the passage, the chart, or master Shao’s use of it .......is when the confusion began. And so it is to this day . Ps You May want to reference “ Huangji jingshi shu “ Translated “Supreme Principles that Rule the World” :)

[@YiTubeChannel]

*_In ancient and present times many people have connected the passage and chart together._* Not in ancient times they didn't - all commentaries that link the passage from the Shuogua to the Xiantian Bagua are from the Song dynasty or later - Wang Bi, Lu Deming, Zi Xia, Kong Yingda etc. do not refer to this chart. Which makes sense because it didn't exist in their time. *_You had mentioned that you can make several trigram circles. Of course you can, and they would all fit the passage. This however would be in disarray as the seasons, time of day, planetary cycles etc. would be completely out of order , so I don’t understand the point you are making there._* My point is that the paragraph from the Shuogua does not refer to the Xiantian Bagua - it only describes a feature that can be found in the Xiantian Bagua but can also be applied to other trigram circles. Also, the Xiantian Bagua was never meant to be linked to the seasons, planetary cycles etc. It's purpose was to demonstrate daoist _neidan_ 内丹 principles. That later sources do link it to the seasons etc. doesn't say anything about its original purpose. *_The passage only fits with the specific order as it is._* Nope, it doesn't. You don't seem to accept that the passage doesn't even describe an order - it only mentions the trigrams in pairs, that's all. *_It is my understanding that master Shao connected this exact passage with the pre-heaven chart in TOTALITY ._* Indeed, he did. Ans he was from the Song dynasty. Before his time no one connected the passage from the Shuogua to the Xiantian Bagua. *_Ps You May want to reference “ Huangji jingshi shu “_* No, there is no point in that. The video discusses the origin and history of the two trigram circles, and Shao Yong's work only affirms that the Xiantian Bagua did not exist before the time of Chen Tuan. After all it is explicitly mentioned in the classical sources that this trigram circle came from Chen Tuan, and that this is how Shao Yong got hold of it. You don't have to agree with my conclusions as presented in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpqVp36ieseFn68, but you can't ignore the facts as we have them (see the references in that video to sources that discuss this topic.)

[@ruotze]

It could also be that forward & backward moving numbers simply refer to addition & subtraction. In the advanced method of calculating a trigram it's necessary to subtract numbers until you arrive at the number 8 or less. Those are the numbers of the trigrams.

[@YiTubeChannel]

Interesting theory, but back in the early days the trigrams didn't yet have numbers. Also, the text explicitly says that the YI has backward moving numbers, it does not say that a certain numerical method has these. When the text says the YI has these numbers you might expect that you can find these numbers in the book and not somewhere else.