Why don't we use double decker trams any more?

[@zaphod4245]

HK's trams are really fun to ride on, and I always find it so surreal there how it feels like the UK in an uncanny way. All the little things (road signs, street markings and furniture etc) are the same as in the UK, but then it's a massive tropical asian city full of skyscrapers and 30 degree heat.

[@BACConcordeproductions]

im from HK and yeah, its a really fun way to travel

[@BibTheBoulderTheOriginalOne]

No trams, but Gibraltar has that 'similar' feeling, while you only have to look at the population to know you're not in England...

[@stephenspackman5573]

Though it spells “bus” with a 巴, which is a little disorienting.

[@gdclemo]

@@BibTheBoulderTheOriginalOne ... or the weather! But Malta has that too. Lots of red post boxes and things everywhere.

[@johnmurray8428]

I was a regular visitor to Hong Kong in the 1990s, riding the trams and the KCR. I enjoyed every ride.

[@gospelman7222]

As a small boy (I'm 79 now) I remember riding on the top decks of Leeds City Tramways just before the system closed. Probably, track maintenance was running down, but the ride upstairs was a amazing, lots of lurching, with people hanging on for dear life as they tried to remain in their seats, no doubt convinced that the tram was on the brink of derailing and catastrophe. I didn't care, though - I loved it as only a small boy can!

[@johnjephcote7636]

Yes, I too remember the London trams on the conduit on the Embankment and under the wire in Woolwich-that lovely long and curving front upper deck seat. and then ten years later in 1962 riding the last weekend on a Glasgow 'Cunarder, upper deck again.

[@EdwardChan.999]

The double decker trams in Hong Kong started out this way, they didn't use to have roofs!

[@johnmurray8428]

@@gospelman7222 oh happy memories.

[@MrBreadman1966]

There has been several plans to reinstate the Leeds Tramways all of which have hit a dead end. But this year more plans have been put forward for a tramline between Leeds and Bradford using a number of disused railway lines. This appears to be getting some traction if you pardon the pun...

[@jrwtalbot]

Hong Kong’s tram network is of course an example of an original tram network that never closed. They use double deckers exclusively and have had them since 1912 (thank you Wikipedia). They’re easily the best way, though not the fastest, to get around HK Island.

[@EugeneMurray-z1b]

The Ding Ding!

[@haroldinsley171]

And very much the cheapest way to travel

[@davidpierce3217]

To honor this video, I watched it in two windows, one atop the other

[@SS-qo4xe]

My vote is for Hong Kong. Guess we need a fundraiser to make a Hazzardous trip to Hong Kong Island. All aboard!!

[@TheShortStory]

As someone who journeyed the other way, from HK to the UK/London, I second this. Experiencing one of the most modern, effective public transit systems in the world and comparing it to one that is old, underfunded and outdated (yet remarkably performant thanks to the heroic effort of the people that work on the network) has radicalized me to the benefits of transit.

[@Braveplantt]

welp, I'm neutral, there has been an increase of non-english speakers there because mainlanders start coming into hong kong, destroying our unique Anglo-Chinese culture

[@vincentng2392]

@@Braveplantt In the bar district of Lan Kwai Fong, you now hear Mandarin more often than Cantonese and English.

[@ianhomerpura8937]

​@@vincentng2392 mainly because of Shenzhen - it's the largest Mandarin-speaking city in Cantonese-speaking Guangdong province, right smack between Guangzhou and Hong Kong.

[@andrewnorrie2731]

If you're in Hong Kong, why not come to Taipei? Taipei now has two tram lines. One is in Danshui, with two branches, and the other in Shisizhang, near Dapinglin.

[@caw25sha]

1:32 "The driver complained there was nowhere for him to sit so we got an old dining chair from the local dump and nailed it to the roof."

[@phaasch]

That was for the Postilion. Despite his chair being wooden, he still got struck by lightning.

[@nathanw9770]

😂😂😂

[@nsv674]

@@phaasch Trees are also wooden and still get struck by lightning.

[@phaasch]

@@nsv674 I'm sure you must be wondering why I made such an apparently random statement?

[@nsv674]

@@phaasch Random statements are the norm for the Internet.

[@RoyalWolf99]

Melbourne Australia is also an amazing example of a tram network that never closed, and of course holds the title of the largest (by length) in the world, making it a must visit!

[@sprconan]

As a Hongkonger I would say besides being a legacy network, Hong Kong trams also has a factory to build their own trams, since there simply aren't any alternatives. It also survived two attempts of abandonment, first in 1978 (due to construction of MTR Island Line), then in 2015 (partial).

[@ZeBoy85]

Hong Kong actually bought Comeng trams built in Melbourne by Comeng in the 1980’s they were Z and A class trams and like Melbourne some are still running in Hong Kong to this day but like Melbourne they’re being phased out for modern technology.

[@thomasli8242]

⁠@@ZeBoy85 I believe what you are referring to are the light rail vehicles operating in the light rail network in the North-East part of Hong Kong. The system that HK people normally refers to as ‘the tram’ is the one that exclusively use local built, very traditional double decker trams and have over 120 years of history. The light rail system, on the other hand, is very new compared to the trams, which started in 1988 and feature more modern style vehicles. I believe it is called light rail instead of trams as the vehicles are high-floor and require a platform for boarding.

[@michaelwright2986]

@@thomasli8242 And then, of course, there is the Peak Tram: not a tram in any ordinary sense, which it took me a little while to discover on my first visit. Good ride, but.

[@AAA839]

@ZeBoy85 what you said is the north west light rail. Yes it can consider as tram.That a bit different when we talk about tram and light rail in Hong Kong. When talk about tram we usually refer to Hong Kong Tramway in Hong Kong island. Peak tra. Is funicular railway.

[@Braveplantt]

fun fact, our millennium trams are indeed designed (and maybe built but I forgot) in Melbourne!

[@blau1296]

Greetings from Hong Kong ! Most of our double decker trams came from the UK in the 50s. While most trams running right now look and feel modern, the vast majority of the fleet still uses the British built chassis from the 50s. It’s just that their body work has been updated and their camshaft controls replaced by VVVF

[@LargeFormatEnjoyer]

Swansea's tramway was not only being the first to carry fare paying passengers, it also had the largest trams in the UK. There's only a front cab left of one now, nothing else

[@NR23derek]

I's heard they had a bit of the train and pestered my dad to take me to the museum to see it, probably the year after it has shut, I'm guessing around 1965 or 5? It wasn't on public display then but one of the museum workers took us around the back to where the front cab had been stored. It was all overgrown and looked so sad. I assume it was tidied up and put on proper display eventually.

[@dancedecker]

@@NR23derek Yes. You'll be pleased to hear that it was.

[@johnjephcote7636]

I remember one of those being burned by vandals, left unprotected in the early days of the Middleton Railway (Preservation), Leeds.

[@thomasgibbs7239]

Hong Kong’s tramway is interesting because its use has changed to a far shorter distance service. Most people hop on and off for a short ride (it’s only 20p a trip so why wouldn’t you) that means it serves more of a micromobility niche than the big quasi-metro systems we use here. It’s really cool to see it still in use though and very fun to ride on!

[@vincentng2392]

Is the current fare of HKD 3.00 more like GBP 0.30? (Even at this price it's still a steal.)

[@ArchOfWinter]

The MTR is certainly faster, but if you're hoping on a metro, it's not for one or two stops. The tram services a lot more stop between each MTR stops on the Island line. $4.9 HKD for one or two stops, $5.90 HKD for three or four stops, then even more. It isn't that much, but it adds up. So for a short distance, the one time flat rate of the tram is the way to go if your trip isn't urgent or you don't need air conditioning.

[@NR23derek]

When I was a kid we used to go to mumbles for our summer holiday and I have very vivid memories of the Swansea to Mumbles tram. It used red double decker trams, often two cars coupled together and the view from the front seat upstairs was just amazing.

[@Flipper-1201]

Whilst they were tramcars undoubtedly, it was always known as the Mumbles Train.

[@NR23derek]

@@Flipper-1201 To be pedantic wasn't it actually the Mumbles railway? But you're right, it wasn't called a tram although they were tram-like. It did have a short section of street running near the train sheds, but of course most of the line was along its own segregated route like a proper railway. It was a truly wonderful railway.

[@Flipper-1201]

@@NR23derek I meant colloquially, my Mum is from Mumbles and she said it was always referred to as the Mumbles Train. I think it was officially the Swansea and Mumbles Railway. As I child I was always intrigued that there had been two railways running along the sea front between town and Blackpill, but they were all swept away. The station was still at Oystermouth, I don't know if thats still there as I moved away 44 years ago!

[@NR23derek]

@@Flipper-1201 Dad was from Neath (Skewen), hence our summer holidays there. I last visited a good 20 years ago now, the pier station was still recognisable, albeit as a car park.

[@madduckuk]

After one was involved in the death of Alan Bradley the stigma of the double decker tram as a murder machine never went away.

[@dancedecker]

Absolute BOLLOCKS!! I'm a guide at Tramtown and the STAR of the show is balloon 710. Everyone can't wait to see her. And when I do my own tours, the most asked question by far is where was Alan Bradley killed? It's felt that 710 did humanity a favour from the responses i get every time I do a tour, without exception. 😂

[@NeilAscott-n1s]

Melbourne, Australia has a very extensive team network. Whilst it has no double decker trams, it’s the longest tram network in the southern hemisphere. Also a damn good reason to miss that winter of yours!

[@michaelwright2986]

Yes, go to Melbourne, Jago. They kept their trams! Also, it is the birthplace of the best variety of football ever invented. But the weather is intensely variable. If you want **reliable** dry warmth, verging on excess heat*, in January, Adelaide is the place, and they kept their one little tramline, but have also got a light rail now. *Most people find temperatures over 40* Celsius a bit trying. Though there's an immense excitement in Adelaide about 8.30 in the morning: already warm, and you can feel the electricity building up in the air as the eucalypts start exuding resin, and if you meet someone on the street, the approved greeting is "Gonna be a stinker."

[@jimtaylor294]

If Down Under gets itself some DD Trams... then I'll have a reason to visit 😌👌

[@ZL1GHZ]

Bit off topic, but all the suburban trains in Melbourne are Victorian as well.

[@MattsModellingMemories]

As a teenage tram fan in the 80s, Melbourne was an exciting place to grow up. The last of the open W2 and W5 cars howling along the clearways, conductors to talk to, all the best sights and sounds.

[@lachlanmcgowan5712]

Melbourne is still running with the "longest tram network in the world" title, but it will probably lose that title to Paris fairly soon at current rates of construction. Melbourne hasn't built any major tram extensions in years.

[@norbitonflyer5625]

I think the loading/unloading and other considerations are more important than you suggest. A single deck vehicle, whether bus or tram, can do so much faster, doesn't have space taken up by stairs, and is fully accessible to wheelchairs, pushchairs, and others who find steps difficult. A single deck tram can be almost any length you want, thabnks to artriculation, but a single deck articulated bus is more of a problem as it isn't on rails so needs a wider swept area on curves as the rear part will not follow the same track as the front part. There is also a practical limit to how big you can make the engine (or batteries), which is not an issue when the power is being supplied from an overhead cable.

[@eechauch5522]

Yeah, he kind of brushed these points aside too easily. I think the reason he did, was because the UK seems to completely ignore all of these problems when it comes to buses. Running double deckers as city buses is just as impractical then double decker trams. There is a reason double decker buses are quite a rarity outside of the UK for city transport. Loading times are incredibly important to enable frequency and speed up journeys, so an articulated bus will almost always be the better choice.

[@jamesaitken5653]

Exactly. If you've ever ridden in a HK tram during the day, you'll soon realise how impractical they are. They're much narrower than double decker buses, trying to squeeze a family with young children off the top deck and through the rush hour crush and out the doors at a stop is quite a buttock clenching experience. Mind you, they're quite interesting and staggeringly cheap. But not an efficient transport mode

[@aDifferentJT]

There are significantly more drawbacks to long buses than long trams. Articulated buses are problematic for safety and manoeuvring. Bi-articulated buses even more so. These are what motivate double decker buses and do not apply the same way to trams.

[@jonistan9268]

The problems of double decker vehicles just seems to be actively ignored in the UK. I'd say it's a cultural thing, buses have always been double decker so they have to continue to be this way, regardless of whether it's practical. Trams however were removed and society forgot about them, so the new ones can be built the European way. Buses continue to be double decker though, just because they've always been this way. This isn't the case for any normal city bus anywhere in the world. Everywhere else I've been so far, double decker buses are very rare and exclusively used on long-distance or express services where an articulated bus would be impractical or offer too few seats. The ratio between seats and standing room is different to single decker buses, as the top deck is usually just seats with no standing room. I like that you can nearly always find a seat on a London bus because of this, but that doesn't mean it's a good solution all around, otherwise it would be done like this globally which it isn't. They are more flexible in traffic though, which is useful in London with its narrow streets and sharp turns everywhere. You can't make the same moves with an articulated bus in London, so switching to those would be difficult on many routes. And many routes are pretty long-distance too, simply because the city is so huge, so you might be able to justify the double decker anyway. Besides, an articulated bus in London (and probably the rest of the UK too) can't really unleash its full potential of being capable of loading and unloading passengers more quickly, because realistically you need to force everyone through the first door in order to make sure that they pay for their journey. Other places don't seem to have this issue.

[@wileysneak]

@@aDifferentJT they have articulated busses in cardiff

[@sr6424]

There is another tramway with double decker trams - Seaton! There are a few trams which where built less than 20 years ago!

[@jacksonmacmanus1001]

Seaton would fall under the heritage tramways he disregarded because all their trams are either scratch built to heritage designs or regauged heritage trams, and the line is an old branch line railway so its not an original tramway like Blackpool and Douglas

[@seeitsayitdoggo]

A big one is always Accessibility. It's effortless for anyone to get on and off a modern tram as there is no steps at all in the vehicle and you can board from any of its many doors. This keeps dwell time down considerably. Wheelchairs, strollers, etc. can also just get on and off with no issue.

[@jmi5969]

Yes. Perhaps it works in low-traffic, low-density areas (but then there's no real need for extra space, anyway). Not in big cities. A standard 27-meter articulated car in my city is rated for 265 passengers (at 8 per square meter)... double the area, that's 530 passengers but same six doors. Bones will get crushed.

[@TheTransitNomad]

They're so cute and romantic! I really wish the world had more of these. Great video!

[@Kastle57]

The highlight of Beamish museum (North East of England) are the trams that take you round the site, and they are double decker trams.

[@roderickjoyce6716]

As a former volunteer at Beamish, I have to say that, delightful though they are, the double deck trams are a complete pain on very busy days. The platforms and stairs are very narrow, and we are a lot bigger than our great-grandparents. Boarding and especially alighting take ages. The Gateshead single decker, with its longitudinal seats, is much easier to load and unload.

[@johnjephcote7636]

I took my rapier sword in its belt in my rig (C19th ''Courtier to Count Orsino) for a Crich Steampunk weekend. It was no trouble even to sit down on the upper deck of a 1952 Sheffield Roberts tramcar.

[@haweater1555]

Hong Kong trams not only dare to use narrow gauge track ( 42" ) but are also single trucked - just four wheels on such a tall top heavy vehicle.

[@AAA839]

They had test with a couple single deck trailer car during the 1960s - 1980s But it proven not beneficial to the operation.as it is so noisy and the car is too heavy can't run on the route to Kings road (Now Tai Koo City) As the gradient a bit high (1:19.2). The car not had enough power to finish the route. Passenger not too keen for trailer too.

[@gottfriedheumesser1994]

In Austria, there have never been doubledecker trams due to the overhead lines. There was a very curvy bus line that was served with short double-decker buses, but it turned out that these buses needed much time to get passengers out when crowded. So they were replaced by articulated buses, and the time in stations decreased significantly. But there are now double-decker trains in use on the one hand for short-distance traffic, as the stations would get too short, but also for high-speed trains going at 200km/h maximum.

[@mdhazeldine]

It is quite funny to me that the UK has double decker buses and single decker trains, and mainland Europe has the reverse!

[@fritz46]

That's because the UK is probably the only country in the world where road vehicles have a larger permitted height than mainline train vehicles.

[@laszlokaestner5766]

I think part of the reason is that modern trams work on a different concept to original trams. When first introduced the concept was very much like that for omnibuses and trollybuses and followed on from that of stagecoaches. The concept for modern trams is more akin to trains. In many cases trams are introduced to replicate previously lost local railways and as you point out several have replaced trains one for one. Modern trams are a form of mass transit system with fast loading/unloading, fixed stations and so on. It is significantly different from the way previous trams used to operate hence why previous styles of trams including double-deckers do not fit the bill. On a similar note this is also one of the reasons why trollybuses haven't made a come back despite the obvious environmental benefit of electric power.

[@TheStobb50]

Most of the double-decker trams that run at Blackpool are old Sunderland corporation trams. I can just about remember the trams going back to the old depot on Fulwell Road at the end of the day. I can partially remember the noise they made I would hide under the table. You good at sending me down memory lane,thank you

[@AtlanteanAN69]

The island of Aruba has a 4 vehicle tram system operaing in the centre of the capital Oranjestad, which starts at the port and runs through the mai shopping area. When we were there in April 2023 Imanaged to photograph the red double-decker in service, the cars are different colours, Wikipedia states the rest of the fleet consists of a blue double decker and one green & one orange single decker. Wikipedia states the system was opened in December 2012 and the cars operate on lithium batteries, supplemented by hydrogen fuel cells.

[@KeefJudge]

With a large pinch of "I'm not an expert" salt, I'd argue the Volks Electric Railway isn't a tram because at no point does it share space with other vehicles. It has its own segregated route set apart from the promenade road (with quite a few pedestrian crossings along its length to access the beach), so I guess it's a light railway.

[@coastaku1954]

You should come to Toronto some time! We have a Subway system, an extensive tram/Streetcar network that never closed, and a commuter/regional rail network that exclusively uses double decker trains! Also that Regional Rail network also runs a regional bus service that uses coach busses and Double Decker busses!

[@TheMusicalElitist]

One of the best Transit systems ever!

[@eattherich9215]

@@TheMusicalElitist: I think so, too. I pestered my relatives to take me on every form of public transport. I loved the GO train and was up those stairs as fast as my old knees could manage. 😂

[@coastaku1954]

@@TheMusicalElitist Unfortunately it's being ruined by a Conservative provincial government...

[@TheMusicalElitist]

@@eattherich9215 lol! Same here!

[@TheMusicalElitist]

@@coastaku1954 figures!

[@MattMcIrvin]

Boston's Green Line subway is a descendant of its old street-level and elevated tram network, and it all started with a tunnel from Park Street to Boylston built to get the vehicles off of congested Tremont Street. Going by old photos, Boston did have some double-deck trams in the 19th century, but the tunnel was built for single-deck trams, and all the Green Line branches go through it, so that's what the Green Line uses to this day (and the Ashmont-Mattapan trolley line, which uses older-generation vehicles from that system). However, the MBTA does use an odd mixture of single- and double-deck cars on its commuter-rail trains.

[@Dave_Sisson]

Hobart also had double decker trams on a rather steep and curvy network of lines.

[@ktipuss]

The only Australian city that used electric double-deckers. Sydney briefly tried using double-deck trailers behind steam motors but than went down badly; the upper deck was in line with the smoke exhaust!

[@tankmicr00man]

Great video, and thanks for the shout out for the Isle of Man's horse trams (sadly a shadow of their former full promenade route to the ferry terminal). I would urge all who appreciate vintage trams and railways to visit the island whenever they can, the summer months are best!

[@thomasburke2683]

Blackpool's heritage doubledecker trams, if they ever resume service, have no problems because there are no bridges over the tramway, but most cities do have overbridges somewhere. When older tramway networks were developed in the late Victorian era, trams, especially horse trams, were very slow. Also the public were expected to take care of their own safety. Today, if we had double-decker trams, accelerating from 0-40 in ten seconds, people would fall down the stairs, accidentally or otherwise and instruct their legal advisers to demand extortionate compensation. The trams would then be restricted to very low speed.

[@katrinabryce]

If the bridges are over roads, then they will be mostly fine, because they were designed with double decker buses in mind. In the USA, they have streetcars and trams which are two different things. Our old tram networks are what they call streetcars, they only run on the road. The new ones are what they also call trams, they have a mix of street running and dedicated rights of way.

[@dancedecker]

@@thomasburke2683 They will be back next season

[@solidflyer286]

@@dancedeckerthat’s not what they’re saying

[@mallettdw]

@@solidflyer286 Depends on how you interpret "suspended"

[@jacksonmacmanus1001]

@@dancedecker "Suspended Indefinately" does not traditionally mean Back next season, so unless the backlash and outrage and petitions about them cutting the heritage trams go somewhere, then they wont be

[@Thommygun-qv7um]

It is kind of interesting to hear that one reason for the lack of double deck trams is the fact they needed to bought from abroad where no one produces such vehicles. Alexander Dennis became the sole provider for double deck buses (for public transport, excluding coach buses) in recent years. Even Berlin started to buy them after MAN stopped producing them. Also, a nomination for a massive tram network: the RNV network in Mannheim, Ludwigshafen and Heidelberg, germany. Around 200 km of tram lines.

[@katrinabryce]

Wrightbus in Northern Ireland also supplies double decker buses. Most of their examples are found in Dublin and London, with some in Hong Kong and Singapore.

[@matthewlongstaff3112]

We also get double deckers from BYD and Yutong (China) and MCV (Egypt), while Ashok Leyland/Switch (which has British links) build double deckers for India. It's European makers who don't seem to produce double deck bodies, unless you count coaches.

[@alanclarke4646]

Jago, I'd say that as the rails for the Volks Electric Railway aren't inset into a road, that it's not strictly a tram. Also, can I mention that when the depot for Worcester's trams was demolished, they built a co-op on the site. ( The co-op closed in 2022 and has lain empty since ).

[@jacksonmacmanus1001]

that means that most of blackpool isnt a tramway either then, coz most of blackpool's tramway isnt inset into a road either, only the mile from Fisherman Walk to Fleetwood Ferry and the 530 yards Of the new extension from Talbot Road to North Station is actually set into a road, thats 1.3 miles of a 11.2 mile tramway

[@gavinathling]

@@jacksonmacmanus1001 I think if any of it is, then it's a tram. The Volks is not inset into a road at any point.

[@finndriver1063]

I truly wish the Swansea and Mumbles railway had remained in operation. It would be cool to still have the first passenger railway operating today, and it would be a great link to have in an area with such terrible traffic and wide hostile roads. You can still see the remnants of the Slip Bridge, which connected the park to the beachfront and was removed in 2004; with near constant quiet discussion about replacing it ever since. Alas, it seems Swansea's own council can't even see the benefit of a 20mph road, so I doubt it'll ever happen, especially after the ftrmetro debacle.

[@troelspeterroland6998]

The Copenhagen tramway which was developed by a British company in the 1860s used to have double decker trams. They also ran double deckers with a (single decker) trailer. The double deckers were discontinued in the 1930s so that the roads wouldn't have to be lowered so much under the new railway viaducts built in those years. There are a couple of double deckers running at the Danish tram museum.

[@Evemeister12]

Double decker trains are a great idea. Ive done them in the netherlands and switzerland.

[@crazyboutferrets]

They do them in France too, I'm on a trip to Paris and I went on the double decker RER today

[@jason38321]

Tramway nomination: Toronto's TTC streetcar network. Loads of interesting history.

[@gregoryworth84]

Also the largest and highest ridership in North America and in continuous service since the 1860's

[@rollertoaster812]

0:20 Yeah, you should do a video on the trams in MY city, the original stomping grounds of the Peter Witt streetcar! 😂 just kidding, those tracks were abandoned 100 years ago, and the light rail metro we have now is embarrassing compared to, well, basically all of Europe. Always enjoy your videos. Keep it up!

[@watcherzero5256]

You missed out one important aspect. The length over fixed axles that can negotiate a tight corner is limited and a longer wheelbase vehicle would detail, so to add extra capacity they added an extra level. Nowadays we have articulations that allow the frame to pivot around a rotating bogie allowing long vehicles to still negotiate tight curves. In theory if designed specifically for British gauge and utilising high platform doors where you either ascend or descend to a saloon from the entrance way, by reserving some interior space for equipment that's normally fitted on the roof or below the floor, and having some single deck accessible carriages... a modern double deck tram could operate within British gauge. Just as you see some double deck commuter trains in relatively compact gauges in Paris and Japan.

[@backwashjoe7864]

I am happiest to be the staircase to his upper deck out of all of this year’s you-are-the to-my phrases 😊

[@jgodfrey546]

Informative as ever, Jago. Hard not to wonder how ladies negotiated those 2nd level tram stairs with the long skirts of the day

[@jacksonmacmanus1001]

very carefully id imagine

[@kaitlyn__L]

Someone else says their nan simply refused to go on the top deck. That's one way around the problem, I suppose! But yes, when I climbed one of these tram stairs in the transport museum my girlfriend got an awful lot of upskirt opportunities 😅 (I actually have some good photos from that angle, haha)

[@MarkDibley]

As a Brightonian, The Volks Railway goes nowhere infrequently and expensively. It's definitely a beach novelty ride rather than a tram 😊

[@patrickovsiu]

As a one-time visitor to Brighton I have to agree. Could have been more useful if someone had extended it into the marina.

[@ricktownend9144]

Good video, on what could be an important topic. I think the faster loading/unloading of single-deck trans (and buses) may be a bit more important than you suggest, and is probably a factor in why cities around the world in general do not use double-deck vehicles: the combination of faster boarding and using better frequencies to deal with increasing custom should lead to a virtuous circle of more people using public transport.

[@rainyfeathers9148]

Double the fun! A bus that I think could be a tram is the 18 because it's pretty much a straight run, can't picture it ever happening but it's fun to dream😊💭

[@megapangolin1093]

Trams are really the best form of transport in cities, they are the dominant force on the roads and command the respect of other road users, and they don't get slowed by traffic. The trams in Basel make the whole city work, they are well located and are reliable, clean, efficient and on time. They are the true arterial transport solution. It would be great to have them more ubiquitously dominating London's transport network. Great video, Jago, listening is like meditating.

[@johnjephcote7636]

I still remember the conductors of The RT ('bus) double deckers 1950s/1960s asking if one wanted "to go Inside" or on "top", a hangover from the days of open top vehicles.

[@tonys1636]

Well remember standing in the queue for the 601 trolley bus from Kingston loop to Thames Ditton loop, the bus came around and the close to 100 people started to board, first day of Bentall's sale, we were about to board and the 'clippy' shouted "on top only please" as lower deck full. Nan said "we'll wait for the next one, only 10 minutes". She refused to travel on the top deck since tram days. At least now at the front of the queue.

[@thirdrail9295]

You should add San Francisco to your travel itinerary. We have five LRV lines] that are a combination of subway under the main shopping, throughfair downtown and then street running on the outer half of their lines. In addition, there is a surface line that runs the length of market Street And then turns when it gets to the ferry building and goes to fisherman‘s wharf. It uses vintage PCC’s , vintage Milan Brill cars and includes other heritage cars that are run on occasional basis, including three Blackpool “boat“ cars. In addition, there are three narrow gauge cable car lines that use two different styles of equipment. Worth a trip.

[@emjayay]

When BART came along the plan was to underground the streetcar (=tram, now light rail) under Market street on a floor above BART, then they would surface (one route after going through the long Twin Peaks tunnel, and one where it branches off before that to go west and through a shorter tunnel on its way to being outside again). So the surface streetcars ended. Then a few years later they came back, with a loop at the end around a few blocks instead of going into the Twin Peaks tunnel at one end and an extension around the north waterfront at the other. Then a new line several miles down 3rd street near the east side. Not just a hit with tourists but a regular part of the transit network. No AC but SF doesn't often get hot. Back in the 1940s there were a lot more, some replaced diesel or electric buses with the 1950s push to buses got going across the US (and West Berlin). The under/overground light rail cars are modern (replacements for the disasterous Boeing-Vertol original fleet) but the all-surface ones are vintage.

[@ADAMEDWARDS17]

Your point about old railways being converted to tramlines is a key reason for double deckers not working as the old railways cannot take double deck trains or trams. Also speed of loading through multiple doors makes quite a difference. In Paris the newer trains on suburban lines have gone for single deck trains but with shorter wider cars for 2+3 seating (but done properly, not cramped UK style) rather than double deckers which usually can only have two sets of doors. Imagine the Elizabeth Line with half the number of doors but twice the passengers in the peak. Double the stopping time at each station, slower throughput for the entire line. I think a trip to Paris to meet The Tim Traveller to explore this is called for. I'm sure a bistro or two might be fitted in. "You are the glass of red wine to my steak frites" or something!

[@francesconicoletti2547]

Yes the Sydney Metro was revelation going from the 8 car double deckers of Sydney Trains to 6 car single decks of the Sydney Metro would seem to be going backwards until you factor in that single level. One level floor continuous for the length of the train, doors no more than a few steps away from wherever you are on the train. No choke points of steps or isolated carriages, no doors squirrelled away at the far end of carriages. The speed of getting on and off must help significantly in lowering travel times.

[@anorthedge4422]

"In Paris the newer trains on suburban lines have gone for single deck trains". Nope, the reverse. All the newer RER trains are double-deck, except where loading gauge restrictions prevent their use, such as the tunnel under the Seine. The outer suburban SNCF lines, where the traffic pressure is less, have had new single-deck trains. Macron has spent a lot on new trains, but also new lines.

[@TheScillonian3]

We used to have double decker trains in South East London from 1949 until 1971 running to Dartford

[@railfanunionpacific]

In America, we have something similar to a double decker train called BiLevel Coaches or cabcars which are usually used on push pull commuter services

[@puikepuck]

Oranjestad in Aruba also has double-decker trams, and those are less than ten years old

[@1258-Eckhart]

Oliver Bulleid designed a class of double decker EMU for the Southern Railway, but due to the constraints of the UK loading gauge, he had to stagger upstairs and downstairs seating, meaning that sitting downstairs, your head was inches away from an upstairs passenger's feet.

[@peterdean8009]

And... heat rises so upstairs was unbearably warm.

[@barneypaws4883]

Very good of you to mention the Swansea and Mumbles railway Jago. That too was a double decker electric tram, sadly no longer with us.

[@michaelwright2986]

When I were a lad, people still talked about "going inside, or on top" when deciding which deck of a bus to sit. Conductors, too: "Plenty of room on top." A hangover from the early days. I don't suppose this proves anything except that I have now entered hypergeezerdom, but I'd be interested in when those expressions went out. I was expecting young Jago to refer to it, over the pictures of early buses. On the plural of "bus": neither way of spelling looks right, but Shorter Oxford records both "buses" and "busses", preferring "buses": and I must say, "busses" makes me think first of a series of archaic kisses. Before anyone suggests "*omnibi", NO. The -bus part of "omnibus" is a dative plural, "for everybody", not a nom. sg.

[@philroberts7238]

Yes, I remember as a kid my mother saying we'd sit 'inside', rather than upstairs. I could never understand why she used to say this, because they were clearly all 'inside' to me.

[@christophermatthews6972]

Busses is more common in the USA.

[@michaelwright2986]

@@christophermatthews6972 Thanks for the info. It's a bit odd, because normally US spelling prefers a single consonant, e.g. "focused" rather than "focussed." But nobody expects consistency in language.

[@danielnew1]

There was a design concept a few years ago for a modern double deck tram for Stockholm. They also had double decker buses on urban routes in the past.

[@robinpetty3180]

Finally! the rediscovered epilogue episode of 'Here Come The Double Deckers'.

[@chriswood5205]

Great video. And thanks for the credit (1:06). I've been watching your videos since those desperate days in 2020 when there wasn't much anything else to do. Great to know I've been able to put something back.🙂

[@namenamename390]

Now that you mention it, it's interesting that Britain loves double decker buses, but doesn't have double decker trains, because I think across the Channel, it's the opposite. Most western European countries have lots of double decker trains, France even has high speed double deckers, but our buses are mostly single deck, and articulated if extra capacity is required. Most double decker buses I've seen here are those tourist city tour buses, presumably for the better view from the top deck. Berlin is the only mainland European city with a significant double decker bus fleet for regular passenger service that comes to mind.

[@wilhelmvonn9619]

There have been one or two attempts at double decker trains in the UK, but the problem is "Loading Gauge". This is the maximum height and width allowed for trains, which has to be defined so that they don't hit things like bridges and platforms. Other countries developed their systems after the UK and can use larger trains.

[@roderickjoyce6716]

We don't have double-decker trains because our railways were and are built to a smaller loading gauge than railways elsewhere. Two double deck trains (classification 4DD) ran on the Southern Region of British Railways from 1949 to 1971, but the upper-deck compartments were extremely cramped, and the awkward layout made boarding and alighting slower than on conventional SR multiple units. It was easier to run longer single deck trains to cope with rush hour traffic. Railways in most other European countries have generous clearances than in the UK (and Ireland, despite their broad gauge), so double-deckers are a practical solution on busy lines. Apart from the upper deck, double deckers usually have a low floor downstairs, wide doors and stairs to the upper deck, Even so, taller people can find the upper deck window seats rather cramped.

[@andrewyoung749]

@@roderickjoyce6716 cramped yes, and useless for those taking a long distance journey re luggage, which on a paris-marseilles etc tgv is, you know, loads of people. the racks above the head accept maybe a briefcase so you have to dump your luggage including quite small stuff all over the place. badly designed in that way, which is a major way if you want people to think 'ooh this is great ill never fly to bordeaux again' or whatever...

[@kimvibk9242]

If you are ever in Denmark you can see our newly (re-)opened trams in Aarhus and Odense. Copenhagen will get a tram/light rail in 2025, and we also use double-decker trains. Double-decker busses, however, have gone out of use.

[@hairyjedi]

A good suggest would be here in Sheffield. We’ve trams that magically become trains and share track with the national railway network on the Rotherham extension.

[@RoccondilRinon]

You touched on it here, but I always assumed the lack of double-decker trains in Britain was due to the tiny loading gauge.

[@SeverityOne]

For the short period that Malta had a tramline - something that few Maltese are aware about, as opposed to the railway - they used double-deck trams as well. In fact, the ornate friezes in the Porte des Bombes gate in Floriana were removed, so that trams and their overhead wire fit underneath.

[@thomaszinser8714]

May I suggest the Karlsruhe tram network? It's probably well outside your normal range of travel, but it has a really cool long-distance system where a number of lines borrow otherwise-disused rail lines to get to fairly far-flung exurbs.

[@caitlinmcclare1271]

Such a shame that Blackpool have 'indefinitely' suspended heritage tram operations, been expecting this for a few years though as they have steadily decreased heritage operations.

[@andrewyoung749]

to be honest i always thought they gave the heritage operation to enthusiasts as a way of maintaining good relations at modernisation and never really wanted it. tnh im not interested in the new ones at all so id only go to Blackpool for the old trams, but then that means im not even close to the main market.

[@dancedecker]

@@caitlinmcclare1271 it is merely "paused" whilst the heritage cars can be retro fitted with a new safety system. They will be back next season.

[@dancedecker]

@@andrewyoung749 You could NOT be further from the truth. When the upgrade happened in 2012, the council knew very well the "lure" of the heritage trams and so went to great lengths to ensure they could run alongside the Flexity LRV's. This pause is purely to.allow the C fleet to be retro fitted with a new safety system. When.done, they will return.

[@magnemoe1]

Loved the double decker bullet trains in France. More so then I found the bar 😺

[@stevetaylor8698]

Modern "trams" are really light railways and a very different beast to the trams of old. I am surprised you didn't mention electric trolley buses which probably have more in common with trams than their modern counterparts with the obvious exception that they don't run on rails.

[@jananias2985]

Mumbai doesn't have trams anymore, but we do have london style double decked buses. You can see the last vestiges of the tram network near Flora Fountain.

[@Cuttlefish2202]

That "not trains, though" comment was some excellent foreshadowing.

[@chrissaltmarsh6777]

I just remember double-decker trolley buses in Bradford. Which is nothing to do with trams, apart from the wires up above.

[@warmike]

Moscow had them in the 60s.

[@haroldinsley171]

There were double-decker trolley buses in Bournemouth when I was a school boy

[@bertspeggly4428]

There were some double-decker trains on the Southern Region. I went on one as a kid. And surely VER is an electric narrow-gauge railway. I rode on a double-decker tram through the Kingsway tunnel on the last day of the London trams. My Dad was good with things like that.

[@WillKemp]

Victor Harbor in South Australia has a double decker horse-drawn tram to Granite Island (where there are penguins!) 🙂

[@peteedwards]

Has anyone thought about the Sydney Trains they are double level but not overall much taller as they put the lower deck nearer the rails. Also they only have one entry on the lower deck the stairs being inside so It does not take any longer to load at stations as you can assend to the upstairs as the train is moving.

[@mewosh_]

I like to imagine a futuristic solarpunk London with doubledecker articulated trams on the streets

[@BenutzerWalter]

If you ever are around, I think you'd like the tram system in Brussels!! Antwerp, Ghent, Charleroi also have interesting systems each with some unique features, albeit smaller.

[@haweater1555]

The overhead wire is impressively high. Here in Canada, the light rails power wire is barely any higher than is required for trucks to pass underneath.

[@paulsengupta971]

I can't help thinking that references to the upper deck are a euphemism for intelligence. "He's a few seats short on the upper deck."

[@allthingsgerman]

I look forward to the video about the double decker trains that were trialled in SE London / NW Kent :-)

[@geoffgovey9093]

Hi Jago. How about a video about Luton to dunstable busway? Quite an interesting history of the route cheers Geoff

[@b_altmann]

I really like the double decker trams. They were enormous in size, going by the specimen they are keeping at Acton Depot. And Kingsway was an underground station for them. Would be nice to still have one heritage line with those in London.

[@trainticketboy]

Yes please to a double decker train video! Was amazed by the ones in the Netherlands.

[@silverutopia]

Yes, please do a video on the Hondekop :D

[@mikecollett9152]

enjoyed the vide clip, in video scene from west midlands from snow hill to wolverhampton base on disused railway line. also on hoilday in scotland ,managed get see museum of transport in GLASGOW feature in clip

[@joermnyc]

Toronto has a lovely tram network. Haven’t been there recently so I’m not sure how the new fleet of longer low floor trams are (the older ones were single car and high floor.) TTC subway is also quite nice.

[@brianfretwell3886]

Blackpool didn't order new double deck trams. I expect that was due to the fact that setting up a plant/production line to build them would be too expensive. They did have new bodies made (in the late '70's/early 80's for some using old bogies and control systems) by a bus manufacturing company though. The strangest thing I saw was one year they had the use of double deck trams (they only used them in the summer/autumn then as double deck ones needed two conductors to collect fares) was ended the day before the end of the illuminations. To keep up with demand the actually RAN double deck ones, but as they had stood down the extra conductors the stairs to the upper deck had boards across them so they couldn't be used.

[@RicciChoi1109]

Hong Kong has a justifiable reason of keeping the original double-decker tram network, where the MTR Island Line (the subway/metro/underground or whatever you call it) was built literally straight under the tramway. It is because the Island Line has 5-10% less capacity (when compared to the other two lines with the same specifications, Kwun Tong Line and Tsuen Wan Line), due to the lack of space in Hong Kong Island for building enough ventilation shafts. Keeping the tram network actually helps to ease congestion on the MTR by diverting passengers who travel for 1-2 stations, or they are not in a hurry.

[@pacificostudios]

It's a mystery why UK--or at least London--loves double-decker buses. Double-decker buses take up less curb space and can turn tight corners, but Europe and Asia cities have many narrow streets, too. The Bendy Bus controversy was legendary in London. Here in North America, the time to load and unload passengers, combined with lighter ridership helps determine that double-decker buses and trolleys are never used. However, double-deck passenger cars are used on almost all passenger train systems outside of the Northeastern U.S.

[@galashery7264]

I rode on the top deck of the HK trams. 10/10 would recommend. If I recall correctly a good part of the interior was even wooden

[@wintersbattleofbands1144]

Nobody makes common sense interesting like Jago. I think this is my favorite KZbin channel, and I've never been to England.

[@25thjays]

Last week I was questioning this exact topic wondering if you had any videos on it. I guess now you do 😂

[@willscottytv]

Blackpool announced a couple of days ago that the heritage trams are to be no more. Cracking timing on your part 😂😂

[@PtolemyJones]

Funny, I just finished a fun little detective novel that took place in post WW II London, and the upper deck, while not critical to the story, did get discussed a few times.

[@erwallace1]

Something I’ve been wondering for a long time, especially about Blackpool… thank you 😊

[@erwallace1]

Although of course Blackpool has some double deckers too

[@erwallace1]

As old heritage things

[@derekantill3721]

I have used double deck trams in London, Blackpool and Hong Kong. The real answer if you want to get along quickly is single deck as this speeds up loading and unloading. The same problem is with buses , if you want to get along quickly an articulated bus beats a double decker every time.

[@rapideyephotography9782]

That was a double exciting video young Mr Hazzard.

[@MattsModellingMemories]

I wonder if part of the uptake of double deckers in the UK was because they became popular when single-truck trams were the norm, as it was easy to put a double deck body on top of a four-wheel truck at a time before electric bogie cars weren’t a practical proposition? And then, when the technical issues behind practical bogie cars were ironed out, they stuck with the double deck option to further maximise capacity. Longer dwell time at stops wouldn’t have been an issue in the early days because an extra 30 seconds at a stop was still quicker than walking! I grew up in Melbourne, Australia, and was a young fan in the 80s when bogie cars up to 60 years old were still in service. No need for double deckers because the next tram wouldn’t be too far away.

[@hypercomms2001]

I would more than welcome you doing a history of my city's tram network, but a small problem... I live in Melbourne, Australia..........

[@Jimmy-x3t]

Sydney has double decker trains which have been around 50+ years (obviously modernised and a recent new fleet came online). Paris, USA to name a few have double decker trains. But Melbourne has the extensive trams compared to other cities around the world.

[@RobertScott-pp6gj]

Did you know that London did used to have a double-decker train line? I forget which one it was but IIRC, it ran pretty-much easterly from London Bridge, a failed experiment which lasted for a few decades in the middle of the 20th century. Interestingly, Paris still has one, or at least, still did around 16 years ago when I was last there, also towards the east.

[@kaz7953]

Very insightful. Now as you briefly mentioned, I wonder why the UK doesn’t do double decker trains. Other countries I know have double decker trains but hardly any buses.

[@terrymoore9388]

Thanks Jago Another great video and as you said maybe one on double deck trains would be good

[@prairiewolfo9274]

Nice video. Thanks for posting.

[@admiralbeez8143]

I’m heading to HK in February. Whenever I’m there I ride the double decker trams.