Why Dr. Stefi Cohen Thinks You Don't Train Hard Enough!

[@TheJeffNippardPodcast]

Hey guys! I'm back with interview 3 of 5 on the question of how hard we should train in the gym! Next I'll be uploading my conversation Eric Helms and finally Greg Nuckols. Then it's onto new topics :) If you want to check the full compilation video, you can do so on my main channel here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJvcdZSujtWKbtE Peace!

[@pattymelt-go3fv]

Please...every study you reference you have to tell the listener WHERE they can read the study.

[@skinwolf]

Jeff: How often are you maxing out? Stefan: Almost every training session. Jeff: 😳

[@deejayspillz]

You can get away with that when 💉

[@shahaf75]

Everyone lifts pretty at 50% That's just gold! I love her perspective and I think this is one of the best fitness\strength conversations I've ever heard!

[@LostTheBattalion]

Love how you navigate the topic and express your disagreements in a respectful way throughout

[@jayb555-r9k]

There’s so many themes that run through all these episodes. It always comes down to balance and where do people prefer to apply that stress. It’s funny also how people have opinions that try to restore the balance back whenever the environment seems to go too far one way as in: “you have to go to failure always” “no why bother just do as much as you need” “yeah but don’t use that as an excuse to be lazy”. I really think it’s important to separate conversations by level of experience and goals. Training at the elite level is nothing like the beginner or even the advanced. You make sacrifices that people who’s life don’t depend on their performance, wouldn’t make.

[@jon.a]

I agree, but the people watching apparently care enough to watch a bunch of hour long videos about how hard to train, so they probably are enthusiastic about training

[@Yupppi]

You also have to separate the elite training from other people because to become elite you pretty much need to be a bit special to go to that length, you don't just become the best of the best by going to the gym and train hard, the best are special individuals. They need to train to their best potential, but it's a different potential than for others.

[@lucabalestra1638]

This was so interesting! Thanks Jeff and Stefi.

[@Yupppi]

Personally I really like Mike Israetel's method. It really doesn't leave you questioning if you're doing enough. You start from light and sort of warm up to it, you increase weekly and at the end you're doing at the limit you can stand, and when your feedback is that you no longer improve, you take a step back and start again. In that system you don't need to be good at estimating RPE or RIR, you'll end up at your limit and can maybe adjust it to be more effective cycle based on RPE/RIR. No longer you guess where you should work, and if you're not gonna do it for longer or don't like the defined cyclical training, you learn where your range currently is and can apply it to more continuous system, where you can autoregulate by noticing how well you recover and how much the RPE per session was to adjust. It's interesting she says that she comes from very bulgarian like training style, which has been proven to be a method to drive a ton of people through the grinder and see who can tolerate it, wasting a ton of people in the process but picking up a couple genetic freaks who can excel. On the other hand there's the Sheiko programming that was thought to be perhaps the best ever, and that was definitely based on that RPE concept and progression from light towards the goal and managing sub-maximal intensity. I don't think you can freely apply that bulgarian mentality and method to general trainer who is not genetically special, they want to progress as well despite not being able to tolerate that intensity. For example listening to Eric Helms and Jessica Buettner (ridiculously good IPF tested champion lifter you know), it doesn't sound this brutal, but more controlled progress. Of course you also need to try hard, but this sounds more like do or die every day. Like she gives an example of a beginner female doing 50 kg max squats and being able to do that every day - what's a beginner? My weight in squats is nothing impressive, actually very very humble, yet I can be seriously sore for 3-4 days after good squats. I'd wage there's far more individualism in it. It's difficult to follow what her real thoughts are, when she sort of seems to go from one end to the other - one moment she's saying a beginner can max every day, that she maxes out daily, then she also says that there's long recovery times and preparing periods.

[@giuliam2531]

There's no comparing Mike to her. Talk about incommensurability

[@rockyevans1584]

@@giuliam2531 agreed, he was nothing to talk about as a powerlifter

[@giuliam2531]

@@rockyevans1584could agree, but I was obviously meaning the other way around

[@cako666]

"This wave of RPE6 sub-max boys" has got to be one of the finest insults I've ever heard lmao

[@vignesh1065]

Sick burn!

[@stefanosstamatiadis740]

Only 5 mins into the video I can tell you: I love this podcast format (I just discovered the channel) and I love Stefi. As she said sometimes we need a more integrative approach in order to combine accumulated knowledge with empirical evidence and I think the podcast is such a great tool for that. Can't wait for more content!

[@BakedJake27]

I really respect her answer for 51:35. Most genetically gifted people are not nearly as self aware.

[@BakedJake27]

Also thank you both for an informative podcast!

[@boxerfencer]

This is awesome Geoff! Solid gold.

[@masonturner2124]

I loved this conversation, I thought it was super thoughtful and when there was a disagreement it was handled with tact. However, I think you guys agree on more than you believe, it’s just a matter of how the questions were framed and how she answered them. I would say the biggest misunderstanding that you two were having were the position from which the questions were being answered. Jeff I believe was asking the questions from the position of “what is the best way to develop strength”? While Dr. Cohen was answering the questions from the position of “what’s the best way to maximize one’s genetic limit of strength”? More or less. It is a trite statement to say that one’s own experiences influences opinions and feelings, and I think this was on display here. Greg Nuckols has outlined 3 main ways to develop strength: 1. Increase muscle mass to genetic limit, 2. Technical Proficiency, and 3. Neural drive (aka as she calls it intensity). Jeff is more averse to relying on neural drive because when pushing “hard” in the past, he has gotten injured. Dr. Cohen, on the other hand, stated that she is a genetic “freak” when it comes to muscle mass, so likely hit her peak for her body type before even powerlifting. She gained technical proficiency easily bc 1. Had a weight training background 2. Started powerlifting 6x a week. This would allow her to gain technical proficiency faster than average. At that point, to go above what her “genetic potential” for strength is is to train “balls to the wall” with insane neural drive. This goes for the best in the world too, because they have already maximized 1 and 2. She is most likely discounting the importance of 1 and 2 because in her own experience, those came extremely easy and the neural component was the factor that led to the most direct gains in strength. The truth is, where someone is in their training age, cycle, and time spent with these lifts will most likely determine which of these factors plays the biggest role. The average powerlifter, as Greg Nuckols has noted, just simply needs to get bigger in size and spend more time with the bar. I highly recommend checking out Greg Nuckols article “YOUR drug free muscle and strength potential” to find your own genetic potential.

[@stevendibble5739]

Does your ability to adapt to stress depend on how much gear you take?

[@joelhayes9607]

Yes, gear allows you to adapt to more stress faster

[@valkyraehighlights5896]

He basically implied that at 41:15, let her rock though she is still impressive even if she’s enhanced

[@jjw4600]

Someone on gear recovers faster and can tolerate more volume but the intensity should always be there natural or not, no ways around hard work

[@chrisw9445]

Love all these comments . Yes yes and yes

[@kevinlopes548]

The absolute best podcast i have ever heard. Love Stefi, a true champion

[@luiscaminero9145]

7:12 "You don't achieve greatness from casual effort." wow

[@GustavoSilva-ny8jc]

This was sooooo awesome!!!!! This was the first interview with Stefi that i saw and i'm in love, i think she's what i aspire to be. Strong, resilient, determinent AND diligent (and with a 4x bodyweight deadlift hehe). It's so cool to see someone defend the Intensity approach when i used to think that Volume and RPE were absolutes because people that i respect used to talk about them all the time. I actually experienced both extremes and while there were other factors playing out, when i was focusing more on Volume and Suboptimal work i was REALLY unhappy. I wanted to do more, i wanted to push harder, but i had to "follow the plan", and my training (and life) started to be governed by fear. I think that always going for slow, consistent, progress and never doing more than the minimum necessary it's not my style. But i learned a lot by doing this!! And i think that today i land in a mixture of the two, is intense BUT with self preservation (i take more care of the recovery side now). Please, do more interviews with her!!! I think it was more elucidating to hear you talking with someone that you don't fully agree then let's say Eric Helms for example (i loved that interview too by the way, and is a great complement to this one).

[@CarubiChips]

This was a great session! It's refreshing to hear a healthy discussion with respect. I feel like the one thing that this also pointed to is the mindset. If it's not committed correctly and wholeheartedly then you've set yourself to fail/make mistake/injure yourself.

[@ryanlee6291]

Love see her perspective on this

[@BingBong956]

We really need more of these, awesome content.

[@dannydevries4077]

Very interesting. Thanks for gaining her perspective Jeff.

[@MrNixey]

1:43 I thought he said 'your lips are crazy' lmaoooo, she just looked a bit weirded out😂

[@reke9942]

I thought the same initially loool

[@ianpier16]

I have a feeling Stefi also has great genetics for tolerating extreme exposure to intensity without getting hurt. But I'm sure fatigue management also plays a huge role there. I think most of the times I've gotten hurt it was a combination or technique fatigue and loading, never a single issue really

[@weisscoaching]

Exactly. Every time I follow a training plan I get hurt because sometiems it takes one extra day for injury to happen. Considering how you feel and what you can tolerate is essential. Being able to train long-term without getting injured is the most important factor. 🤘

[@ianpier16]

@@weisscoaching yeah that why older guys like John meadows say train when recovered and not a specific time frame because time to recovery is more variable than a weekly program allows. I think steffi also doesn't follow a set week though and probably does a heavy session whenever recovered not necessarily a set number of days apart

[@weisscoaching]

@@ianpier16 I'v ebeen reconsidering my own training in regards to recovery and intensity and I noticed I still wanted to fit into 7 days training patter for no reason. I mean, I can do 9 or 10 day blocks before taking a complete day off, depending on the intensity. Actually extending allows me to get more low intensity done.

[@ianpier16]

@@weisscoaching yeah I think when training a client who works full time and trains around work it makes sense to go weekly of they can't come on random days. But if you manage your own training, there is no reason to do it like that in a 7 day week. I know mike Israel advocates training arms and shoulders almost every other days and legs like every 3 to 5, so in that manner your weeks will never be symmetrical but rather sometimes split up, sometimes full body but it becomes a headache to custom design a program like that for clients and completely ridiculous if they even miss one session. If you have the average beginner there is no reason to go so complex tbh

[@weisscoaching]

@@ianpier16 I did not reply sooner but I can only agree.

[@Risjinalosnvai]

“You don’t achieve greatness from casual effort”

[@ab3585]

Is there a way to be smart and honest while taking PEDs?

[@chichoquesada]

Stephi had a really good point. What you do outside the gym really matters!!! I met people that uses PED. At the gym they perform great but outside the gym they are not paying attention to the “when nobody’s watching training” PED goes to the body but we need to work the brain too. No drug can do that. You have to do it natural all the time. So if you take good care of the outside the gym training you can workout harder faster.

[@jasonhardy8634]

After watching the entire conversation, I found myself disappointed - which is not how I normally feel after watching a Jeff Nippard video. While they had decent debates on each topic, the problem was that the difference in their training modalities, personal experiences, even upbringings, PED use, etc. impacted the way they interpreted the question and negatively impacted their ability to effectively debate the intended topic. For this to have been more effective, I think Jeff would have had to bring concrete examples of the topic. For example, videos of someone lifting to 0 RIR, 2 RIR, 4 RIR to debate what type of form breakdowns each of them would deem permissible. When talking about frequency and intensity, they could have discussed an actual written program that one of them had written or found another coach's program. "Too much volume" to Jeff meant "not enough volume" to Stefi because Stefi likely disagrees with Jeff's known opinions on intensity (referencing her comment on RPE 6) and vice versa. But without debating an actual specific program, video of the execution of a set, etc., they were just debating their own principles against their perception of the other's. I also felt like Stefi was changing her answers as they went on - which could either be due to Jeff not being as clear as he needed to be as an interviewer or Stefi attempting to subtly back down from her prior statements through clarification. Either way, I would love to see another debate where they discuss these same topics but leaving less open to interpretation.

[@giuliam2531]

I agree. Also the level of the guests and their scientific background is very heterogeneous....

[@ibanarrambide]

I didn't expected that opinion about maxing out etc... it's very interesting, because she is an elite powerlifter, and others people in this sport are elite too but with sub max training (like russ), the podcast was awesome

[@lordvoldemort917]

She's on PEDs so keep that in mind when you take her advice.

[@ibanarrambide]

@@lordvoldemort917 i thought about it, maybe one day i will experience her method, but that was interesting to hear the opposite of what we often hear about fatigue etc...

[@lordvoldemort917]

@@ibanarrambide I can tell you from personal experience about failure training on compound lifts, it is a very stupid idea if you do them more than once a week. I fell in trap trap of let's listen to what the other camp has to say back in January listening to Greg Doucette. I squat 2 times a week, barely could add 10 pounds a week, pulled my Glutes Medius, had to stop squatting for 2 weeks. After covid restrictions went up in my country have been following RPE and Squatting 3x a week mix of RPE ( 8 on 1st session, 6 on 2nd and 9 on 3rd and last session of the week) and can easily add 10 pounds per week for the past 8 weeks.

[@ibanarrambide]

@@lordvoldemort917 i also think that shooting for RPE 10 every week is dangerous, and i really don't want to be injured, so managing fatigue with the RPE system seems to be the safest move😅

[@diegorecuay2852]

@@lordvoldemort917 The people she competes against are also on PEDs

[@sorrisocdo2759]

I think the truth was in the part where Stefi said, that basically after a point, improvement comes with a risk, that everybody has to decie whether he or she take it. So if a client would show me a bodybuilder's picture and ask me to make him look like this, I'd most likely say: How far are you willing to go for it? And also I would make sure he understands the health risks behind having a competitors look, or performance rate. If he still wants to do it, then it's his decision.

[@duppercut6104]

Love Stefi and the whole hybrid crew 👍

[@ocdmusictherapy143]

Thanks for your channel great info, always good

[@rafaelmccloud8406]

Two of my favorite people!!!! Yessssss!!!!!!

[@martapinto2681]

Great one!!!🙌👏

[@erriconeale6924]

You are an amazing lady with a wealth of knowledge Stefi. Thank you!

[@romanstravels6390]

DANG JEFF @41:20 THE QUESTIONS ARE WHYLIN

[@reeferfranklin]

My only contention with this is that RPE of 10 is the last rep you can do without any form breakdown, on e you've reached the fatigue level of a form breakdown that first sloppy rep was RPE 11.

[@ToanTheNomad]

What if you happen to just misgroove slightly? Do you just rack it at rep 6 when you know you have done 10 reps of it before? I think RPE applied without context is more of a limitation vs. facilitator for progression. There’s also a difference between form break-down and bad form. Where do we draw the line? People assume that maintaining good form is black and white but realistically it may vary. Proper technique/execution trumps proper “form” in my opinion.

[@connorlewis4675]

Hi Jeff I've trained on and off since I was 16 but I'm 22 and now and have been on a strict bulk barely any wavering I've seen great gains all around I'm happy about, what I was wondering is if I keep my protein up would adding in cardio allow me to burn some of the excess fat I've still got while still being able to put on muscle as I am still fairly new to lifting again and haven't maxed out beginner gains. Great pod btw.

[@lordvoldemort917]

Cardio is good for your overall health but lean bulking and cardio don't go well together if the aim is to Maximize muscle gain. You can still do cardio for health reasons but make sure you continue gaining weight for your lean bulk. Outside of edge cases you can't really put on muscle and lose fat. Specially if you are in a caloric surplus like on a strict/clean/lean bulk.

[@connorlewis4675]

@@lordvoldemort917 Thanks bro helpful ive just been on a bulk since not long after this the extra fat isnt even a bother kinda makes me look bigger even if it is just fat haha but i know its optimizing muscle gain too xxx

[@rockyevans1584]

@@connorlewis4675 yeah definitely stay gaining while in the newbie stage, no one recommends beginners cut weight

[@ItsSnipz2]

Love this

[@Kotsos541]

So what I'm thinking after this interview is that your 5-day full body program should be the most optimal for both advanced and beginner lifters. Stefi explained why high frequency should work for beginners and you mentioned why it is the best for advanced lifters in your video. What do you think?

[@chrisknickerbocker388]

Nothing against Cohen, she's impressive no matter what, but she's clearly not only enhanced, but she's actively avoiding the topic while selling her products & services. This is misleading because it leaves the consumer thinking they can get her results with her products or philosophy, but they can't. She needs to come clean that she is enhanced so her viewers & customers don't have unrealistic expectations.

[@naskrajuciszy]

Do you really think you can improve only on juice? Do you really think her programs will work only if enhanced? If so you really need to relisten and internalize "you don't acheive greatness fr casual effort". Enhanced or not.

[@aspenwagon04]

She is a professional athlete. Should we make all of them do that, or just her?

[@mpnothanks]

hooo boy ya done it now

[@rockyevans1584]

No one thinks a 25 time world record holder is natty. She isn't going to admit to taking illegal substances on video ya bozo

[@sampats89]

She's a top tier athlete. Bottom tier human being.

[@slmiller988]

Whenever Stefi is talking, the look on Jeff's face is like he's listening to his girlfriend explain why she's leaving him.

[@bryantambracc]

I think Stefi is saying that beginners don't have the capacity to push themselves that hard. They don't have the ability to do it. They can try but that's not their true max even with that weight. When you're advanced your lift ratios become crazy and that's when you develop the capacity to use all that power as an output.

[@ariconsul]

Jeff confronting his powerlifting experience at 18:40

[@BrandynMakes]

What I got from this: go hard but don't go crazy

[@lukibear2130]

She sounds tougher than Jeff 😄

[@matt7984]

I wanna see that video of Stefi's 455 1 rep you mentioned!

[@Hvuntokrul]

Pretty sure it's the one around 1min into the video, in the intro:)

[@brandonyoung4910]

@@Hvuntokrul yeah but she killed 455. 10x

[@Hvuntokrul]

@@brandonyoung4910 I believe that's what everyone's referring to:)

[@kamikaze885]

This the Stefi that just got arrested?

[@spr6577]

yes lol i was checking to see if she went on this podcast like i remembered

[@Ak353-d7u]

Is there something wrong with Stefi's eyes and eyebrows

[@lukeharris2622]

✝️💪

[@justmeandmy]

The only reason the more volume == more growth curve should have ever been thought to be true was because of rampant steroid use. Natty's don't have a work ethic issue, they have a recovery issue.

[@MrDevinferreira]

Love Stefi Cohen, very intelligent woman.

[@romanstravels6390]

So as a Jr Kines major studying to be a PT, I think it’s important to realize that Stefi is speaking as a top athlete for top athletes because most of what she’s saying really contradicts what is taught to PTs during practice

[@rockyevans1584]

...😅

[@mrddcass6540]

Stopped watching once she said only listening to science is the same as only listening to anecdote.

[@beninbryant455]

Train Bulgarian = roided to the gills

[@emneemne]

Dude.. she is not a doctor

[@cwm8565]

She is