Why dual extrusion matters - First look at the Prometheus System!

[@jpjd51]

Tom, I really appreciate your videos, as a 66 year old retired engineer interested in 3D printing and drones you have been a primary influence in my life. I do many things to keep my mind active and engaged as it was when I was truly working. 3D printing and all the processes behind and in it fascinate me. From manipulating firmware, hardware, and software and actually creating 3D models I have found myself fully engaged. You being a native German speaker but firmly established in the English language have done a wonderful job communicating the subject to English speakers and I truly appreciate that. I know it takes a boatload of work to do what you do and feel like you deserve more appreciation. Though I was disappointed in the end of your live show on the Scienci mill I do understand your frustration and why you abruptly ended it. I hope you do produce a full review on that product because I am interested. Good luck in your future endeavors! John

[@stage274]

delanjp It’s awesome is in it? What a good hobby. And keeps you thinking to solve problems, thinking about efficiency and so on.

[@Caigefox]

I know I'm replying to an old comment but I have to say that I love how even when you are retired, you continue engineering as a hobby. I love people who have a passion for their craft. It's inspiring.

[@tkf5576]

6 years later dual extrusion is still not a big thing. Crazy that time flies so fast.

[@macelius]

Interesting re-watching this six years later.

[@3DPrintingNerd]

This looks like a VERY interesting system and I cannot wait to see you put it to use. Very curious about the stringing you showed and if it can get past that.

[@IshamPadron]

I love how thorough you are with the questions we should be asking for the various applications.

[@123jerro]

Doing multicolor printing doesn't really interest me at this time but, the ability to accurately print support interface layers with PVA does. Could you please do a segment using this kind of setup and the procedure for PVA interface structures?

[@LeonKnook]

As a suggestion you should take a look at the Felix Pro1 3D printer. This machine has also dual extrusion. What makes this printer special is that the two hotends are moving away from the model back and fort. Not seen this kind of technique before in other brands. When a hot end has nothing to do is swaps away and cools down a little bit, so no leaking or bouncing problems.

[@parker1ray]

Also purchased a pallet+. It did work, but if you printed a small print, the purge block was huge and wasteful. Mosaics reply was print it much larger or print many of the same thing. The problem was that it fused the same length of filament regardless of the amount required. If you only needed a tiny amount on the print, you wasted two feet of filament on the purge block!

[@3dpprofessor]

Great video. The problem with the disolvable supports,. or any case where different materials are used for supports, is finding two materials that will adhere while printing. This is proven to be the bane of making these things happen because one formulation will stick to one base material, but not another. There's, it seems, no one-size-fits-all solution as yet.

Flux capacitor came with this idea first and it is from 2014. www.thingiverse.com/thing:301982

[@ericsammut95]

+Cláudio Sampaio That is true that the idea is not new, but our implementation of this idea with The Prometheus System is the real innovation that allows it to actually work reliably and produce great results. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it! ;)

[@RaphaelRema]

Quick on the trigger... Nice to see you here Patola.

I see that your design is open, I only complained about it because I feared it could be patented and thus blocked for others to use. I apologize for that and I also wish good luck on it.

[@joejia1410]

Prometheus: *exists Chinese manufacturers: Its free real estate

[@Праведныймиротворец]

Coronavirus: hold on I'm talking brother

[@madhunugg]

can you shoot a video of this system working? doesn't have to be in a printer; just the filament switching

[@2awesome292]

To deal with infill for priming nozzles: Calculate amount of priming needed on each layer Compare that to amount of infill that is possible to put in model If too much priming needed: build column with appropriate diameter to put the filament in (also varying infill for that column, but tbh it shouldn't have to be nearly as big as the amount of wastefulness that is used now)

[@AcrimoniousMirth]

I love how as you said it was illegal you looked to the side as if checking with some secret agent that you were in the clear!

[@saraluvzalex]

If you wanted to use two materials that have different printing temperatures, you'd have to wait for the hotend to cool down or heat up while it switches though.

[@duncanstamps]

just now getting into 3d printing, one major draw back to this system is that you can't use different nozzles for example .4 for the outside then 1.0 for the infill, I'm not sure why this doesn't get more attention since it is sort of supported by cura through some fiddling.

[@williamsfarias7281]

the real advantage i can see in a dual printer is to print with water solve support material; because basics 3d prints have a terrible finishing comparing to injected plastic industries can make. To make a professional 3d printed piece you will need to prime, sand and paint it. But for the ones who uses a dual printer for any reason, thats a really good improvement.

[@CaBarry374]

As someone just entering 3d printing, in regards to the leaking hotends... That is only because the hole is on the bottom. With all the control systems on these, it would seem to be trivial to just rotate the hotend to be pointing up slightly when not in use. This would also help with detaching from the print to move to a new location, as less sideways motion would be required to perform that separation, thus avoiding any potential issues (which I've seen discussed in other videos) from the sideways force generated there. As I haven't had a chance to actually work with a printer extensively, there are things I might be missing that make this less of a sensical assertion and I would appreciate being filled in, were that the case.

[@VladOnEarth]

Just an idea about leveling dual extruders on Z axis. For everyone who is struggling. It is really near impossible to level them properly, so I just used a high grit sandpaper between bed and lower nozzle to make it right. i used 1000-2000 grit, which is really thin. Works beautifully ever since then and is perfectly even now. Not sure why no one came out with that, this was the first I thought and did it immediately :)

[@koitk]

We print some parts from Polyflex/PLA or Ninjaflex/PLA we use Cartesio W printer. The original extruders didn't print ninjaflex at all, after lots of trials and errors we ended up with two bondtech extruders. Because we use flexible filaments we can't use bowden type extruders. We have ordered Lulzbot TAZ 6 with dual nozzle but haven't received it yet...It probably took half a year fiddling to get the prints high enough quality so we could use them.

[@MosheKashani]

As I was watching I was thinking to comment that this has been done before by a few people (my self included). But after reading the comments I see that there are a ton of similar designs of this concept already out there. I have only been able to do this on the lite 6 because there's no re-entry problem but now I see the I can constrain the filament as it cools and use it on a v6. I'll need to try it and as always great video.

[@JShel14]

An excellent description of these issues, you even brought up some stuff I hadn't heard of. Thanks Tom!

[@jameshilferty5403]

It is hilarious that you posted this... Last week I was contemplating sending you a message asking about "Is dual worth it".... You are the man!

[@spikekent]

This does look like a very interesting solution Tom, I'll be keeping my eye on it for sure. Id love to see you do a review when it's complete. BTW My Prusa i3 MK2 is an awesome machine, it continues to impress.

[@kippie80]

Looks like a winner. Will be watching in the coming year. Ohh . been 4yr. :8

[@KyleCWong]

Hey Thomas, I've just discovered your channel, and I'm really learning a lot from your videos. I have previously 3D printed several times, but I never really got into the nitty gritty of it. I just ordered my first 3D printer - the Creality CR-10S, and I'm super excited for it to come. Excited to see more videos from you :) keep up the great work!

[@barenekid9695]

welll 4 years on.. You Guessed Wrong :-)

[@bobderick4119]

Wow this is really cool, such a simple concept compared to existing dual extrusion systems. Great idea I think.

[@stevenqneuk8]

I printed that cat model on my dual extruder printer before I calibrated it. I turned out with about a 2mm gap on the x axis between the colours. It did look cool but was a nightmare to tune in. This hotend looks like it could be a better solution altogether.

[@chloemcholoe3280]

this was 2-3 years ago but I love dual extrusion so much! I never had one but the possibilities are endless! I'm MOSTLY Intrested in TPU and PLA or PETG pla etc combinations and even more awesome water soluble filaments! I hope this catches on more in the future :) I already have bought an anycubic anyway ;3

[@madeoftickytacky]

one of the downsides not mentioned in this video was the water of material into the prime tower every time there is a filament switch. on small parts you could be wasting more material than on your prints.

[@buzzerco]

good info on the dual extruder , and helping to understand some of the issues. thanks

[@ultrapowermae]

You can tell by the ambient noise/music, this was a serious video!

[@bogdanSherback]

I have a custom large prusa with that type of bowden extruder, but only one of itit has MANY torque and it will grind a filament if you are going to fast. After this video, i'll buy a second one, probably buy or replicate this desing and hope it works! Great info Thomas! Thanks!

[@Mennenth]

Can't wait to get mine. Even if its experimental and not recommended according to their page, I have large format printer with an e3d volcano thats just begging for a 2 in 1 out upgrade. I'm right there with you on the water soluble support. Shipping should be any week now...

[@GodzillaGoesGaga]

So make the Y feeder a cylinder and you can have 8 filaments or whatever !! Having direct drive with smaller steppers would be great but the weight might be too much.

[@alistairurie2902]

So what happened? Did they ship or not?

[@thebeststooge]

Man, I sure saw an awful lot of ringing on those prints. Where you in a rush when you printed them?

[@thebeststooge]

***** Hmmmm. Thank you.

[@gusbisbal9803]

What is ringing?

[@RicoElectrico]

Waves at sharp corners of objects, due to vibrations in XY motion, usually from mechanical problems or too fast speed/acceleration

[@gusbisbal9803]

***** You mean not a rigid enough of a machine.

[@digibluh]

Any shaking really, the frame is one thing but even if the hot end isn't secure and shakes it will also cause this. the motors/belts do too, one easy way to see if it's motor/belt is to add more friction/resistance on the axis... if it's still there or not reduced, it's the frame.

[@IvanHandler]

I have a similar setup with my SeeMeCNC Rostock Max V3. It is currently still in beta, but the Y-connector works the same way. My main problem is that because the tool change retraction is around 110mm that I find the filament can fall off the spool after a tool change. As this happens more and more, the filament eventually gets tangled and hung which causes the extruder to grind away as the print fails. I am getting some ideas on solving this, but this is a real pain since it can take many hours before this problem arises and it also varies depending on how much filament is in the spool.

[@uhu4677]

Very detailed and informative video. Thank you! (Only the background music was a bit distracting. Maybe it could be quieter.)

[@green7449]

you didnt even mention the coolest thing, printing conductive filament into a print.

[@dfdfdfx3]

Yep.

[@SlEasyTarget]

that is because it does not exist.. (hint:: having bits of metal surrounded by a plastic matrix does not make a real conductor, at best it makes a printable resistor.)

[@lauej]

Owen Carter wires are resistors :b if its used properly, it can be really useful

[@infinite_dynamics]

Do you think it would be possible to run dual Prometheus systems, allowing 4 different materials to be used? Say to be crazy, a pva, fibre, pla and abs?

[@cooltablet2513]

Booker DeWitt i think e3d kraken

[@SlEasyTarget]

I think you just described the Prusa multimateriial upgrade..

[@matthewdavidson8920]

Of you program it right you probably could. That's a cool idea.

[@Nicoya]

I'm less worried about the hot end or extruder setup and more about soluble support materials, particularly ones that are compatible with PLA or PET-G. It seems like folks don't have much luck trying to stick PLA to PVA or HIPS, and there's very little info on whether PET-G (my current fav material) fares any better. I've heard some people are experimenting with using PLA itself as a soluble support and washing it away with lye, but that has some pretty obvious downsides like washing away your skin along with it.

[@GoingtoHecq]

I really want a dual nozzle system mostly for supports. Pla and petg don't stick to each other so I want two nozzles.

[@antranikian5127]

Hey, please make a video with 2 filaments and 1 extruder- cant find it and dont know how to do it... tried a few things but it didnt work... :(

[@Sevendogtags]

Does the peek guide inserted in the hotend, limit hotend's temperatures similar to E3D Lite6 where you can't go over 240-250C without creating dangerous fumes? According to Google, Peek's glass transition temp is only 143C.

[@Sevendogtags]

***** Oh cool, thanks for the reply! :)

[@app213]

Tommy can you make an experiment video on an idea about making a printer controller with the WeMos D1 esp32 (since Marlin 2.0 supports esp32) and ramps uno shield (since it's compatible with the WeMos D1 board)

[@synapticaxon9303]

Keeping that studio mighty chilly! How about some pasties for the next one? :) Cheers!

[@JessVideoDude]

Great review and in depth explanation of this product :)

[@ODYSx2]

compare this to the pallet ? It is cheaper that is obvious but what is more precise ?

[@pepe6666]

man that was so informative. you are a pro. cheers

[@PaulsR2-D2]

I found the music hugely distracting from a really neat commentary. One of the reasons I like your channel so much is for your comments...please can the funeral music (and where should i send flowers?) =)

[@T70781]

Awesome. Best video so far. Thanks for sharing.

[@hartk5353]

i dont know a whole lot about dual extrusion but with that Y adapter that brings two to one could you technically print a 3-1 or 4-1 and use 2 more steppers with those extruders and have a tri-extrusion, or quad-extrusion?

[@JustinJJHCS1]

having trouble setting up my Cyclops extruder thinking of installing 2 thermometers and jumpering E1 to E0 this way they will both still run without pissing around with Marlin 2.0.0

[@amrunwerhekau9001]

Nice Video. But would be even nicer, if it was stated, that the prometheus system is "only" the feeding nozzle / extruder part FOR a printer, and not a complete printing system. :) (I really hope I did not miss you saying this! :) ) Cheers

[@LucasHartmann]

I have a diamond extruder clone on the shelf, do you Hehe any tutorial video on how to set up slic3r/cura for multiple extruders? How to set the waste to tower, more specifically.

[@BrainSlugs83]

Can you combine multiples of the Y chambers together to get more than two materials?

[@rickzfpv3118]

Tom I know this is an older video, finally 2 years into 3D printing I am starting to do more multi color prints and I am wondering if this system is still available or if there is an updated system like this out there. I would like to stick with a single hotend system

[@MeeKaaH]

do you know what firmware this is compatible with? marlin?? thx

[@MeeKaaH]

cool thanks i might be cooking up a similar setup on my own for my next printer

[@enricodare835]

try marlinkimbra.it

[@matthewguiher3248]

Looks rly cool Tom. Though it’s a bit pricy tbh. Yes you pay for quality but I was able to get it to work on my Tevo tarantula by printing a Y splitter from thingiverse and buying another standard NEMA 17 motor. About $20 to get it working. I bet the prometheus performs a lot smoother and faster, but for anyone who wants to just test the concept just go ahead and do what I did.

[@SpeedDeamon95]

+Thomas Sanladerer Fuck ya man!!! Your my hero when it comes to 3d printing!!! I plan on setting up dual extrusion once I can get my pain in the ass (hictop prusa i3) printer working. Do you think the multi-material-upgrade will work fine with dissolvable support material?

[@makersbox5625]

how about the robox, that had dual extrusion with one print head?

[@makersbox5625]

+Thomas Sanladerer I guess you mean the quick fill head, but the robox v2 offers a dual material print head aswell.

[@astasna]

I guess you could do 4 materials and more With that guide for the filament.

[@kerbycarter1537]

I have a 2-in-1 hotend that works like the Prometheus that you show (Aibecy 2 in 1 Out Dual Color Metal Hotend Extruder Kit, from Amazon). My problem is the slicer program ( Cura) does not feed the material back in the same every time. It doesn't matter what I put in the Gcode, it still does the same thing. Any advice?

[@Fluless]

Isnt the e3d cyclops doing the same in a smaller form factor?

[@ericsammut95]

+Sungod3000 The Cyclops is a different kind of solution that feeds 2 filaments into the same melt zone and out a single orifice. The Prometheus System switches between filaments and only feeds 1 filament at a time into the hot end. This has a few advantages. It does not have the issues that the Cyclops has with color contamination. It also does not "cook" the filaments like the Cyclops does. Finally, the Cyclops has complex internal geometry which leads to increased extrusion pressure and decreased effectiveness of retractions. Printing with The Prometheus System gives you the quality of a single hot end with optimized internal geometry for easy extrusion and effective retractions.

[@stevelaminack1516]

Any update......have you found a "hassle free" multi-extrusion system? I tried a Chameleon MKII and it is a royal PIA and I am almost sure the only person that has gotten it working is the creator.

[@vitormhenrique]

I guess it would not work for different filaments that require different temperatures....

[@philippe9625]

Do you plan on doing a test video in the near future ? I take your reviews as very informative especially when you test things !

[@philippe9625]

Sure but as the funders should receive their product in November, i was thinking that the prototype should be very close to the first batch of products. And the claim of it being a revolutionary system should be put to the test, dont you think? To detect any major flows. The goal would be to help people deciding whether they should support the project or not, by "estimating" the level of possible deception... This video surely let me a good feeling about this system but I WANT MORE :p

[@alchemistTi]

is that extra power from the stepper motors enough to push flexible filaments?

[@parasox6203]

Great video as always, this is a really interesting system. How much print time do you have on the Prometheus system? Did you see anything that would potentially cause problems?

[@karandex]

So it looks like i can make it at home. Just need that peek barrel instead of my ptfe in lite 6

[@ericsammut95]

+Karan Chaphekar It is a little more complicated than that. I would recommend reading through all of the details on the campaign page to understand the difficulties involved :) Thanks!

[@TheSullivanPrellwitz]

Tom I find this very interesting, could we get a video of you installing and printing with this system? Possibly next Sunday's live stream? ;)

[@Z-add]

In ultimaker 3 the support is water dissolvable.

[@johncastle6824]

Can you install it on a ender 3?

[@dgusw]

Will there be a review of this system... would be nice to see it work on your i3 (included the needed steps to make it work). The workflow with the slicer would also be interessting to see.

[@stage274]

Can I hook this up to the predator Anycube. I really want a fail extruder single nozzle system. And I need the large printing base. To make the parts I want to make.

[@RVJimD]

Interesting ideas, has multi material progressed any by now 2018?

[@AK-ne5nn]

Hey Thomas, Enjoy your videos and using it to get up to speed with the 3d printing system. I am late to the game! Very curious, this video was from almost 5 years ago. How is the dual extruder doing? Thanks!

[@nunyabiznis817]

The best way to have multi-extrusion is to have independent extruders and hot ends. Multi Z-axis. this would be expensive, of course.

[@jordan10o52]

Can you use this on the ender three

[@calebanstey5391]

Very interesting! I've been looking at dual extrusion for a while now and was thinking about getting the GEEETECH A10M but if I can order this and stick it on my Creality Cr-10s, why should I get a new printer? How easy would setup to the Cr-10s board be?

[@supergeodotca]

Is there a list of compatible 3D printers that this system would fit into?

[@ericsammut95]

+supergeo.ca The Prometheus System should work with any FDM printer controller that can handle 2 extruder stepper motors! This includes the RAMPS, RAMBO, RUMBA, etc...

[@Serachja]

nice... could this system even be expanded to more than just dual filaments? like 3 or 4? :-)

[@Jayr1787]

As always info I can trust. Thanks brother! Cheers!

[@anonymousperson5548]

Wait, so can I just replace the extruder on my 3d printer (Tronxy x5s)?

[@hyperhektor7733]

any news on the dual extruder market ?

[@TylerDurden404]

can you do a review/tutorial of the diamond hotend?

[@tcurdt]

Hm. I believe when I see it. Right now I find the BCN3D SIGMA system much more convincing. Would love to see a review of it btw.

[@ModularIsl]

what makes a printer dual extrusion and can any printer be made dual extrusion

[@mrjsutphenEDU]

Pretty much yes. Any printer can be made dual extrusion using this method with a few firmware changes and, stepper motors and 3d printed parts.

[@Veptis]

I got a Flyingbear P902 and i saw a few people in the FB group having dual extrusion already. it's a topic I want to write and talk about but I don't think I will try it myself. is the priming tower solid? couldn't it be used for high density infill?

[@kevinc801]

One big flaw in this design......If you're using two different materials chances are you would need to have different temperatures for both. Thats why dual extruder printers have two hotends !!!!

[@xbing61]

different temperatures for two different material is not a really a problem that is if you are using S3D you can simply make processes for each material and set a different temperature for each process

[@mora9077]

Thank you so much for this video. I need to ask how can I add the second extruder for the control board. I am working in anet a8. Thank you

[@dungeonsdoodads4306]

I'm getting a Monoprice Mini soon, would this be able to be attached to it easily as well? I heard that it's extruder replacement was easy, but I am a novice so this is uncharted territory for me.

[@km5405]

its 2018 and im still waiting for it to become more economical.

[@Twin_Flyer]

Its now 2020 and its still expensive, costs more then my 3D printer did!

[@LukePettit3dArtist]

Angus just did a patreon video on a new filament that you might find interesting for just this application of support removal

[@MakersMuse]

Shh Luke! :P Haha, but no seriously this could be a pretty cool way to use it.

[@LukePettit3dArtist]

Here I am sending all these people over to your patreon site and giving nothing away, geez I should draft a bill for my services hahahaha

[@MakersMuse]

Haha that is true. I really do appreciate it. I was only joking :D

[@LukePettit3dArtist]

hahaha me too

[@briansouth9325]

Quick question, do you store your filiment on those wall racks? I usually keep mine in the bags with silica packs to avoid water absorbstion

[@extremewirehead]

is this the sametechnology used in the prusa i3 mk2? I assume it uses a similar idea since there seems to be a motor as well

[@hunterrobertson5369]

What about the E3D cyclops?

[@billpealer]

how is this that much more fundamentally different than the cyclops dual feeder?

[@ChipMonkeys]

Will the A8 printer controller support a Dual extruder? If it can not, can I update the controller? Thanks!

[@Spice]

I don't think the board it comes with has a second connection for another extruder, so no. You'd have to replace your board with one that has two.