Why Every BattleTech Fan Should Watch Fang of the Sun Dougram

[@RenegadeHPG]

Please check out Renegade HPG's sponsor Fortress Miniatures and Games at www.fortressminiaturesandgames.com/ For the full conversation with Chris check out, Talking BattleTech, 3D Printing, and Dougram with Christopher Wailes of Thunderhead Studio kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3_EkqdupahpfZo You can find the complete series playlist for Fang of the Sun Dougram here, kzbin.info/aero/PLK2xJVtk-0jP5-2gAO-SSQNiYjKmeqftF

[@Solon_The_Lich]

Yo, have yo watched Argevollen or Gasaraki? they have that Front Mission / Armored Core feel that Battletech has, but they were short lived, considering BT has lived this long due to the fanbase, despite horrible mismanagement of the IP and Harmony Gold´s Fuckery

[@damonknight2494]

thunderbolt doesn't have that, unicorn sort of has that but you'll love it

[@nachoakajrod]

I like the vid man, but your description sounds like the angry arbys guy interview😂😂😂😂

[@DIEGhostfish]

RIP that playlist.

[@RenegadeHPG]

@@DIEGhostfish Uh oh. Updated with a new one. We'll see how long that lasts.

[@70briareos]

You hit the nail on the head with your explanation of the difference between the "Super Robot" anime sub-genre and the "Real Robot" sub-genre. Dougram is an amazing series!

[@rexxo4957]

Votoms is one of the best and most realistic mecha anime of all time

[@onixfieroandscalemodelworks]

I would recommend votoms armored troopers. For me that’s the most realistic mech anime ever. The way it depicts the mechs as little more than walking tanks is more in line with the real robot genre than anything I’ve seen.

[@shuboy05]

Armored Trooper VOTOMS and Fang of the Sun Dougram actually share a creator! Both shows were created/directed by Ryōsuke Takahashi.

[@volcacius1240]

Im sure you know about it but. 008th MS team is also really good.

[@nitrokid]

VOTOMS is cool man. I like the sound of the mech's booster 😂

[@Bangcat]

Votoms is always a fantastic thing to recommend.

[@Soulessdeeds]

I was a Bradley mechanic for 15 yrs in the US Army. I worked on tanks and tracks and did battlefield recovery. I did it all as far as that MOS goes. And things I always thought would happen way back in the 90s when I first joined have long happened and are now common place. Remote turrets. Drone Aircraft. Drone fighter jets. Drone tanks. Everything is just an escalation in weapons and technology. If people in the 1950s saw our world today and its military tech. They would think we would also have space ships and colonies on other planets too. That's how advanced and unreal to them we would seem. 50 yrs down the road who knows where we will be. Definitely in space doing crazy stuff if SpaceX keeps cranking out designs. But also the idea of a Battlemech as we think of it from the game will never happen in our life time "knock on wood". But I know people are working on things that could eventually lead down that path. Never underestimate the military's willingness to spend retarded amounts of money on developing shit that may never lead to a new weapon. But they will still do it just to keep military contractors and company's happy. Do I think we will see walking robotic units armed to the teeth in weapons and sensors? Yes definitely. Will they be Battlemechs? Nah not for a LONG time but who knows. All we have to do is look at modern fighters and know that the F22 is already obsolete and the F35 already has a replacement on the drawing board right now. That's how fast things are moving these day's. This is all assuming we haven't nuked ourselves into oblivion before all this can happen.

[@stephenmiller2544]

There's a full size gundam statue in Japan, and Boston dynamics has robots that break dance and do backflips. I mean just Look at the way handle uses it's counterweight. I think we will definitely have mechs one day. You never know, there could be a scenario where air superiority was not viable.

[@sngooms]

The early to mids 80s were amazing for "real" robot genre and that went places that anime has never even got close to returning

[@gameprose4293]

Even the original Gundam was more grounded and focused on the horrors of war and the effects on the people. Like the fates of Rambal Ral and Crowley Hamon. A lot of the magical/super stuff didn't come in until they abandoned the Universal Century in the mid-90's.

[@Frostwulf1313]

Classic anime is just better in general. Most of my anime consumption consists of 80s and early 90s movies and shows.

[@gameprose4293]

@@Frostwulf1313 I wouldn't go that far. I've seen my share of crap anime coming out during the 80s and 90s, and there are some great shows coming out in recent years. The only recent anime I really complain about is Sword Art Online, and it wouldn't even bug me that much if not for the fact that I've had several SAO fans try to convince me that the .Hack franchise ripped off SAO. I do, however, mostly watch tokusatsu shows like Kamen Rider, Garo, and Ultraman. So it could be that my anime pool is limited so I happen to only ever see the good recent ones.

[@doomguy9049]

@@Frostwulf1313 yeah definitely

[@demgreens]

@@gameprose4293 SAO manages to make money hand over fist despite it's numerous problems - I'm convinced it's the Call of Duty of anime.

[@NomicFin]

Dougram's definitely a mecha anime that could take place in the Battletech universe. Which is helped by the fact that a lot of the mechs have Battletech equivalents (Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Griffin, Battlemaster, Scorpion, and Goliath are all from Dougram). Some Gundam series also have a similar realistic military SF feel, while others...don't (there's been a huge amount of different Gundam series over the years, and the tone between then varies a lot).

[@MrBCWalker01]

Dougram could be dropped into Marik Space without changing much at all.

[@shuboy05]

There's a good reason I loved 8th MS Team.

[@wither5673]

dont forget the thunderbolt, grasshopper, several tanks and light vehicles as well as some infantry uniforms

[@Hart501]

Fang of the sun is beautiful and in my mind it plays on the Draconis holonet every Saturday.

[@Solon_The_Lich]

Dougram, a "most excellent Battlemech"

[@Robloxman01]

That whole "This Clint is a complete shitbucket that's horribly optimized and utterly worthless in the context of the pure wargame aspect of Battletech, but in lore it's been in my character's family for almost 300 years, I've accepted entire contracts just on the promise of being paid in a spare gyro for it, I'm using the entire left arm assembly off of a completely different mech, it's got more gremlins and quirks than the best engineering miracle workers could ever hope to even catalogue much less resolve thanks to all the patchwork repairs and components replaced with parts not designed for this mech or maybe even for this weight class, and it's saved my ass more times than I can count so you can take your brand-new, just-off-the-factory-floor Atlas and shove it up your ass because you'll have to shoot me dead before I'll willingly switch mechs" aspect of early Battletech is what enamored me to the franchise to begin with, and it saddens me greatly that the franchise not only moved away from that in later lore and is continuing to move away from it, but went back and re-wrote older lore to make things less feudal and degraded. Things like entire planetary invasions happening over the rights to a depot of spare parts for half a dozen mechs because of how rare those war machines were are just gone from the lore more or less now and that's such a shame.

[@thunderheadstudio7388]

I feel this so much. This is still where my love of the setting lives.

[@rotwang2000]

I agree, we went from "OMG they got a MEDIUM battlemech !" to "Hey Joe, I'm having a recon mission in 15 minutes can you break out my other Marauder VI MAD 181Dr and configure it to my light recon/skirmish specs, the one with the double Capacitator Heavy ER pulse Blazer PPC's and the Advanced C3 Targeting computer and Artemis VI NARC integrated ATMMML's with combo TSEMP/APHE warheads; quadruple strength myomers and emergency teleport ? Oh and don't forget to swap out the armour with AES enhanced Hardened reinforced glazed ferro lamellar with improved Blue Shield ?" "Yes sir, hail to the Upper Lyran ComWolf League, the Reformed Blake's Confederation of Draconis Shark Spirits will not even see you coming with the new enhanced stealth systems I installed five minutes ago !"

[@Funkin_Disher]

@@rotwang2000 okay that earned a good laugh from me

[@Sensorium19]

I've never been up on the battle tech lore, but the old version you describe sounds great. As a story that gets me going so much more.

[@dark7element]

I agree that the proliferation of advanced technology in the post-clan era got very annoying, but there was a lot about that 'scavenger world' setting that didn't quite make sense to me. Like, if they couldn't produce enough battlemechs to replace their losses, and in many cases couldn't produce them at all, why weren't they forming more conventional armor and infantry regiments to compensate? That would seem like the sensible thing, and yet I recall seeing many times in the books saying that the late succession wars (2900s-3039) era were when mechs were MOST dominant, and conventional forces and combined arms didn't start coming back into vogue until the 3050s. And for that matter, fighting a battle... with mechs... that will get damaged or destroyed in that battle... in order to capture a depot with a modest quantity of replacement parts... so that you can repair your damaged or destroyed mechs... is a narratively unsustainable situation. I get the appeal of an environment of scarcity and desperation. But you sort of paint yourself into a corner when you make the setting work like that, because after a few more years of wars (and there have to be wars, this is a wargame) you start wondering why there are any more mechs to fight with, or why the powers would risk deploying their few remaining mechs on offensive operations instead of keeping them back to defend their capital cities.

[@Mechabang]

A Periphery or Outer Periphery series would sound so cool! Guerilla warfare with rebels that's fighting an established government or inner sphere power interests on their world, pre clan invasion. Make it based on Vietnam like "Ideal War" or something from the Afghan Soviet War.

[@Suodemon]

Do the story of the Periphery uprising before the Amaris Civil war

[@juamu1132]

that's the ourworl's alliance.

[@wyattarthur5275]

If you like Dougram you will also like Armor Hunter Mellowlink and Votoms, Mellowlink is really hard to find but it's on KZbin in low quality with subs, its set in the Votoms universe but its literally just a guy with an Anti Tank rifle and a motorbike vs the world as he migivers his way to getting revenge

[@whiskeycorridor90]

I have not watched Dougram yet, but I have watched other works by Ryosuke Takahashi. Though he has mode some super robot shows, he is considered the master of real robot mecha. Gasaraki, Blue Gender, FLAG, Layzner, and most importantly, VOTOMS. He puts an insane amount of mecanical detail onto his mechs to sell you on the idea that these are real weapons. VOTOMS really changed his game because he realized that a mech would be more realistic if it was only 12-15 feet tall instead of building sized like Dougram. So almost every real-robot show he has made since then has featured smaller, tactical mechs. His influence hit the industry hard too. We probably wouldn't have Code Geass if it wasn't for VOTOMS, and in turn, Dougram.

[@baronvonkrogglesteiniii5310]

OMG, literally an other person who knows about FLAG. I consider that one to be required viewing not just for mecha fans, but for all citizens of NATO or UN member states. Such an important story, with or without the superfluous mech.

[@shuboy05]

Heavy Gear actually borrows a lot from VOTOMS. The Gears are very similar in size to the Mecha in VOTOMS.

[@dakaodo]

Thanks for the great name drops for stuff to look up, guys!

[@franciscoduarteauthor]

Absolutely agree with all he said. Dougram is a quintessential military sci-fi show. It was made with great care for worldbuilding and how war changes people. I really loved it and people should really watch it if they like mecha and military sci-fi.

[@MemoBrunoPenaMarrero]

"it this heroic figure standing astride the field of battle like a god of war making his presence known"

[@trueakuma777]

I'm sold. I'll be checking it out soon! Thanks for the video and stay safe out there!

[@arsenalxa4421]

A question an Army buddy who was a Bradley crewman posed: "How do you PMCS a Titan?" I surmised that the unit with (insert Mech of your choice here) would have defense contractors embedded, because they get paid to make sure the equipment us supposed to work as advertised. It's a logistical nightmare. Let's look at it like this. I was a VLS tech in the Navy. We had thirty or so books on maintenance alone, detailing the functions of specific circuit cards, maintenance of fire suppression systems, computer software codes, etc. Our ship's Mk 45, 5 inch gun had forty books, because they had lots and lots of hydraulics and even more moving parts than my launchers. Now imagine how many tech pubs you'd need for, say, an Atlas? Pubs on weapons, fire control and weapons control, Neuro systems, myomer systems, heat sinks, yeet seat(Patent pending,) sharp bits, spiky bits, the button they to never press under any circumstances, etc. Though I have heard some 'mechs can be kept running with little more than basic tools and a third grade education. Maybe in the Periphery, anyway. House 'mechs get so much more attention. I digress.

[@Solon_The_Lich]

Yeet Seat (R)

[@watchm4ker]

A few things to consider as well: In 3025, there is no Military-Industrial Complex. There used to be. They nuked it. Or rather, their great-great-grandfathers nuked it. The manuals have been out of publication for centuries, but... that's no biggie, they got leaked all over the galaxy decades before everything went to shit, and after centuries of use, repair, patch-jobs and salvaged parts, the only mechs still operational are long past any 'teething troubles' and 'learning curves'. The Star League built stuff to last, which is why any piece of SL Tech is still worth its weight in coffee, centuries later.

[@CurtisAndersen]

Fang of the Sun Dougram was my first introduction for me when I was 6 years old in Wisconsin. I got the 6" model kit at Kay-Bee Toys and couldn't read the instructions because they were all in Japanese. I could only look at the pictures in the catalog and it fired up my imagination. It's still my favorite mech suit.

[@JCDadalus]

Dougram is the True Battletech origin anime. Everything about the 75 episodes I loved. I loved the entire thing.

[@thaddeuscosse9527]

I would even suggest Patlabor as well. It was overshadowed by the Gundam series.

[@CM-wv8ns]

Actually, i use that series as inspiration for local militia mech lance...two decent(ish) pilots in light mechs with proper support vehicles

[@thaddeuscosse9527]

@@CM-wv8ns that's an amazing idea. What I love about Patlabor is how the mechs integrate into regular life, like industry some other mundane tasks, which is kinda similar to the BT Universe. They aren't just for combat.

[@CM-wv8ns]

@@thaddeuscosse9527 after reading several battletech/mechwarrior sourcebooks and watching playthroughs of the original DOS PC Mechwarrior game i envisioned industrial mechs retrofitted by civilians to act as ad hoc militia mechs on backwater planets if they can't get decent battlemechs because they are considered so expensive. Those worlds would hire mercenaries for the 'bigger' jobs... Unless the locals would be able to logistically fund a 'Second Division (or is it Division Two?' It's been a decade or so since I watched that anime) police force specifically to deal with mech related incidents. I know in Bubblegum Crisis (and the different continuities) there was the AD Police...and that's like infantry-foot soldier level combat. Those 80s (and 70s?) mecha anime would at times bring up those issues when dealing with combined-arms military deployment--i mean sure there tropes of kids piloting special robots or female pilots in skin-tight flightsuits too.

[@Bustermachine]

Are we talking about the animated series or the movies? Because the Patlabor films are a lot more serious while the series tends to be rather silly.

[@CM-wv8ns]

@@Bustermachine i personally remember the serious movies of Patlabor dubbed in the 90s and a few issues of the Viz translated comics...if i had to pick a favorite, the first movie was more Battletech-ish like the novels

[@whitworth5s248]

5:00 - This is what I want too. I wish someone would make a MW5 mod that could really delve into the kind of plots we see in the novels. Where you land on a planet and you're stuck there until the job is done 6 months and a dozen battles later. The closest we get is the multiple mission sets where you have to bring multiple mechs to make it through because the game doesn't give you any time to repair between missions. It just feels like a disjointed string of randomized missions. I'd much rather have a mode where you can jump to a system, negotiate a contract with either side of a conflict, and go from there with a sort of choose your own adventure style story with a procedurally generated plot and mission choices that come with different degrees of risk/reward. There'd be a short window between missions for repair/reload, but you have to balance it to make it to the end of your contract.

[@chrisgoyeah414]

I recently just finished watching all of the 75 episodes of 'Fang of the Sun Dougram', and WOW, that overall real robot mecha series' was actually good!

[@Scarabswarm]

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give it a watch. By your description, it's right up my alley.

[@robertcavanna789]

PATLABOR has always been very gratifying in terms of more grounded mecha anime. My favorite kind.

[@watchm4ker]

Japanese police procedural with robots. From the guy who would later direct the first Ghost in the Shell adaptation. Kindof a perfect match.

[@michaelman957]

I watched at your recommendation. Was not disappointed. It's now one of a VERY short list of anime I like.

[@andrewboyce2703]

I just went and binged Dougram after watching this a few days ago. Thank you so much for making this video, I loved it even despite the 80s anime jank.

[@CSLucasEpic]

When the story is great, and the characters compelling, it does not matter if the animation is janky.

[@JPG.01]

On the topic of Mecha anime. Gundam has an offshoot that is Battletech-ish. It's Iron Blooded orphans. A small story with small scale battles. Even some mech-fu with axes and stuff. But these mechs actually sound and look heavy.

[@crazytiger800]

"Child soldiers from Mars attempt to escort a young woman who represents the Mars independence movement to Earth while being chased by the solar system's corrupt military force." Iron-Blooded Orphans is literally just Fang of the Sun Dougram if you replace Crinn Cashim and Professor Samalin with a Heero Yuy-expy (Mikazuki) and a Relena Darlian-expy (Kudelia). Mech salvage and maintenance is done in a very BattleTech-style, too.

[@JackJolleboi]

I started watching dougram a few weeks ago, now I'm planning a crazy periphery one shot/campaign where farmers in bodged together industrial mechs and salvaged scrap mechs defends against overconfident pirates thinking they only need to shoot up a few cows and make the citizens bend

[@GojiKaichou]

They recently brought Dougram back in Japan. New episodes have been released. I've not seen it on KZbin yet, and I don't yet know if there is even a fan sub of it

[@RenegadeHPG]

I have a couple copies of the new comic ordered and on their way from Japan. Looking forward to see what they've done with it.

[@GojiKaichou]

@@RenegadeHPG they sell the new Hasegawa model kits at my local toy store. It's still the classic Dougram/Shadow Hawk design, but with better sculpting and molding.

[@ctrouble2309]

What a passionate sales pitch, im downloading it right now

[@gameprose4293]

I'm literally downloading the Dougram/Shadowhawk STL files that Thunderhead Studio/Christopher Wailes has up on Cults 3D. Has nice Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, Warhammer, and so on as well. Thanks for introducing me to both Dougram and Thunderhead Studio!

[@matthewbirdsall9518]

This man's passion is real! Heard this rant before.

[@crypticsteel1772]

AYYYYY Nice to see dougram gettin some love

[@iDEATH]

Dougram is good stuff. What I really want to comment on is what was said about "...where Battletch lives...", which I couldn't agree with more. That sloppy, gritty, dirty quasi-feudal dystopia of broken down tech was what really cemented it into my brain once I got past that initial "Mechs are cool!" phase when I was a kid (got the box set for Christmas '85 when I was 12). All the Game of Thrones stuff was interesting, but I always liked it best as background world building with the real interesting stories being the ones told in those campaign books like The Fox's Teeth or Black Widow Company. I can't stand what happened once they took the mystery away from Wolf's Dragoons and turned them into Mary Sues, then the Clans...nope, 3025 is where it's at.

[@dark7element]

Battletech can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people. That's one of the beauties of having the different eras. The Clan era was made more to appeal to fans of the 'Macross/Gundam' style of mecha which puts the focus on glamorous super-vehicles and pilots who are 'born special'. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, I didn't get into Battletech until the game was already about 30 years old... I came into it from the 'warhammer 40k' hobby so I gravitate more towards the 'Jihad' and, more recently, the 1st/2nd Succession War era, where the gritty, small-scale skirmishes of '3025 Battletech' gave way to (relatively) massive formations, all-or-nothing frontal assaults and apocalyptic firepower. Some of my other friends are SO into the whole Clan culture thing that they mostly just wanted to do Clan-on-Clan stuff, not just because of their fancy tech, but because they dislike the groundedness and feudalism of the rest of Battletech and like that the Clan culture has a more fantastical, "heroic", superhero-y aesthetic.

[@gserhardt]

Agreed. I started with Battletech when the first box came out as Battledroids (still have it around somewhere) and loved it to death. After getting married, raising kids, etc and the group moved away from each other over the years, I left it all behind but recently got back in again, but I'm sticking to the 3025 stuff. The Clans were exciting at the time as a young man, but now over 50, I look back and realize the real magic was the 3025 era, where everything was just much grittier and less polished, and that classic Warhammer box cover paired so damned well with W.A.S.P.'s "Widomaker" song. Good times.

[@Solon_The_Lich]

"Not even Justice, I want to get Truth!" Looks like Mr. Lertoff will have an "accident" courtesy of Comstar

[@dakaodo]

The Internet is great for finding kindred spirits. :D I felt like I was the only one in the 90s who wanted to reject all that power creep Clan stuff, and hide in my 3rd Succession War hole like a little 31st century Luddite. XD One thing I think Btech's designers/writers struggled with was how to capture decades or centuries of technological advancement and regression, in a game-balanced way. The Tech Readouts clearly show the limits of the writers' ability to justify "older" designs and equipment versus newer, when the game rules and mechanics themselves didn't have a really robust game-economy model for doing this. They tried relying too heavily on weapon heat and range constraints. Why can't an AC/20 just be an autoloading 120mm tank gun? Why does it have to cap out at 270 meters, while an AC/2 caps out at 810 meters/27 hexes or whatever? "blah blah fire control systems" handwavium notwithstanding. :D B/c they struggled early on to create another way to assign game values to these weapons for balance. C-bill pricing and RPG-style availability ratings are more of a thing now, esp with computer game renditions of Btech.

[@thirstyviaduct]

I really appreciate this video 👍

[@Koniving]

For Gundam, the BT fans should watch the Universal Century timeline, the original more realistic/gritty universe for the series. 08th squadron is a good example. The "Gundam" is beyond the initial series is basically star league lost tech versus the first mechs...except the material is new and soon everyone has it and the battleground gets fair again.

[@a.d.samano7873]

Yeah, Dougram is good. Was able to watch it at last. It has a concept of the combined arms.

[@TheDwarfchucker]

Dougram was always on my radar, but I'm fully sold now.

[@DIEGhostfish]

And of course if you like Dougram the team went on to make VOTOMS.

[@SunnyE_Mechwarrior]

As a huge anime fan I've seen Gundam, Macross, Crusher Joe etc... but Fang of the Sun Dougram, kinda feel like the concept of the Battletech Universe vs. the other anime. The story of Dougram was some Rebellion is started on a remote world from a Oppressive Central government which could be earth (I don't think they stated)... which sounds like the Early years of the Battletech universe before during the age of Colonization before the age of the Star League. We do know FASA originally was a little lazy and licensed their mecha designs from difference anime and I feel that the original created must have known about the story line of Dougram. It really does seem like a foundation to the Battletech universe. However though it's amazing mecha designs the animation really dates itself.

[@watchm4ker]

It wasn't that they were lazy, it was so they could use the toys with their new game. This was the 80s, remember, and Japanese shows rarely made it over to the US, and when they did, they often completely rewritten (Robotech and Voltron being particularly drastic in their alterations, so they could fuse multiple shows into a single syndication package). What was just as likely, was their toy lines, licensed and completely divorced from their original setting. Transformers is probably the most famous example, with Marvel Comics and Sunbow hired to basically create an entire universe and storyline, from *scratch*, with only a few sets of transforming robot toys to work from.

[@IVIaskerade]

If you liked Dougram, the Gundam series Iron-Blooded Orphans is a darker and more grounded take on the horrors of war and how it affects young people fighting in it than most Gundam stories

[@dragonturtle2703]

The templin institute did a thing on this. There are advantages to combat walkers. Humanoid ones… les so, but even then there are still some (just probably not enough for anything larger than a protomech).

[@MilitaryStyx]

@@ForgottenSpartan1 ave imperator

[@hang_kentang6709]

my favourute part of battletech was learning that the origin of the battlemech was less about practicality and more about a company throwing in as much tech and firepower unto a single weapon system to cash in on that sweet government contract. their gamble worked because. 1. the head of the government was really desperate. 2. the tank company that got turned to slag failed to realize that the weapon that did them in was made by the same company that make excavators. 3. using warships to glass the enemy from orbit was finally banned.

[@dragonturtle2703]

@@hang_kentang6709 same.

[@vinoirma8225]

The whole series is a blast from the very start to the end, incredible real robot fights with that budged animations.

[@DIEGhostfish]

To be fair to Gundam Amuro's not fighting more than 4 or 5 to one odds till VERY late in the series. Though at that point he's also much more fully a psychic Newtype and that is something people may not like.

[@Zeithri]

It starts with a 2 on 1 fight. Then 3 on 1. And then it keeps escalating because Zeon are stupid and keep underestimating the combined forces of White Base, Guncannon, Guntank, and Gundam, and it's Core Fighters. As Amuro gets more intuned with his Newtype abilities, he becomes a better and better pilot to the point that the Gundam itself needs an upgrade with magnetic coating to keep up. Here's two things that people miss with Gundam when they disregard it in favor of Battletech; 1. If you want to compare what Amuro and Newtype is to something in Battletech, the closest would be the Clan Warriors that are genetically predispositoned to being amazing Mechwarriors. 2. The term 'Newtype' is a reference to WW2 where the Japanese called the atomic bomb for - NEW-TYPE.

[@williamcase426]

He does take on hordes of mechanized infantry and aerospace assets, even early on though.

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@williamcase426 Magellas and Dopps are terrible at their jobs though (And Magella scales are all kinds of fucked up)

[@MrPikaGammer]

@@DIEGhostfish the point of that was when it came to practical weapons like Tanks or Fighters the Federation does it better

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@MrPikaGammer Though a two gun tank with only two crew is a bad idea.

[@tba113]

Another series that sticks out as a grounded real-robot anime is Gasaraki. There are a few points I'm not entirely on board for, but overall it's pretty solid. A TL,DR description of it might be Evangelion, but written and directed by sane people not currently high on mushrooms, and with mecha designs by Shinji Aramaki.

[@sngooms]

Gasaraki plot is still far out there but it has some of the best design mecha out there

[@tba113]

@@sngooms Not going to disagree. Like I said, Evangelion but written by sane people.

[@xedrickOG]

Gurasaki is also a good one

[@TheRyujinLP]

A nice little detail on the mechs in that show is that they don't have the power to weight ratio to actually run (being first gen mechs, makes sense) so they instead not only amble but their knees actually extend slightly to increase their stride length upping their speed just a little bit more (for bipeds, after taking into account power to weight, speed is a factor of the square root of the stride length). It also does a good job showing how mechs could realistically be used in war. While yes, Battletech/Gundam sized mechs are stupid, mechs aren't inherently a bad idea, especially in built up areas like cities and forests and on bad terrain). They're also never going to be tank replacement which is another thing the show (and Patlabor for that mate. In the second movie a group of labors ran into a tank in clear field... it did not go well for them) got right.

[@tba113]

@@TheRyujinLP Exactly. IIRC, one character observes that mechs, while a technological marvel, are still ultimately just one more weapon system that will find its niche among all the others. Out of universe, the design team stuck to their guns on the robots being realistic, even when dealing with the studio. Apparently, one of the things the producers wanted to do was set up a line of models or toys to go along with the show, and approached Aramaki's team to ask how many different versions would the mecha evolve through over the course of the show. The design team's response was that the show takes place over the course of a single year or less, so neither the engineering teams nor the militaries the mecha went to would redesign the mecha that quickly unless there was something seriously wrong with it. They might rig up a double handful of special-purpose attachments for different weapons or sensors, but the plan was always for pretty much just one basic mecha frame for each of the two competing designers in-universe, because that's how real-world development and procurement work.

[@andrepakulak2513]

Well I'm inspired to watch it now. Seen the first few episodes than gave up. But now I will watch it all

[@davidtee5367]

regarding 8:51 singing a school song as they ride to war reminds me of the ending to full metal jacket

[@TheoLogiCultist]

I'mma check this out, thank you for the recommendation. As far as Gundam, I've only seen one; Gundam Thunderbolt, and that one...was dark. An incredibly gritty and shell-shocked movie involving PTSD, the horrors of war, and some of the most brutal mech combat I've ever seen. Would highy suggest.

[@watchm4ker]

Watch 0080: War in the pocket, 08th MS Team, and maybe the first season of Iron-Blooded Orphans. Mobile Suit Gundam basically *invented* the Real Robot mecha show, just before the 80s. It swings back and forth wildly between military drama and Super Robot show, but so many shows took those ideas and took them further than Tomino could get away with in 1979.

[@mkosmala1309]

Thanks for the recommendation

[@robertperry1780]

Armored Trooper VOTOMS wasn't too bad

[@lc7581]

Absolutely love this, and I'm glad other people like the little stories that BattleTech can tell.

[@himajinkazutaka98]

A feature of this anime is that at the end, the situation of the battle is influenced by political considerations, and the battle ends as a result.

[@tengufactory]

I had no idea about this series.. thank you..

[@calumdeighton]

I've started watching "Fang of the Sun Dougram" the last couple of days. And its definitely one of the best mech series. Only on Episode 14 at the moment. But I'm going to finish this series and see the ending of the Wolverine. Definitely need to get my hands on one of the mechs for my tabletop stuff. Thank you very much for the suggestion. Thank you.

[@saisolitaire]

Never knew this. Thank you!

[@Barbaros357]

I recently decided to do just that! I've spent some time lookign for the series and have finally 'assembled' it and I'm going to watch it. Cheers dude!

[@TheHussmanStuff]

Setting any BattleTech story in the Periphery automatically makes things 75% better.

[@burningchrome8622]

just started watching dougram based on your enthusiasm. im a huge og gundam fan and dont find it any harder to watch than any of msg when their not at their best.

[@gothbricks2000]

Great interview. I will definitely check this out. Cheers guys.

[@thecommenter9678]

0_0 I blame you! I BLAME YOU! This video made me loose sleep! MY PRECIOUS SLEEP!...... >..> because i binged anime for nearly 4 straight days! I exaggerate but no thanks for bringing this to my attention im a VERY hardcore anime fan, and a newfound hardcore Battletech fan. So this was great! How i missed this anime after 20 years of being an anime fan... boggles my mind! I WILL SPREAD THE WORD!

[@TheBrewjo]

Okay, I'm sold.

[@felderup]

i remember building dougram models as a kid, but now i'd be more interested in votoms, which could be built and used.

[@Icarusabove]

Sold me. Going to check it out.

[@tenchraven]

Agreed. I love the big, grand picture of Battletech, but I also love human stories- without the humans, human civilization is just empty buildings, fallow fields and rust. I saw part of Dougram many, many years ago, and my favorite Gundam is 08th MS Team. Even Macrosss, like Battlestar Galactica, would be worthless if it was just action. I don't remember the school song, but remember the end of Full Metal Jacket, when they are singing the Mickey Mouse Club theme in the middle of the Battle of Hue?

[@baronvonkrogglesteiniii5310]

I love Dougram, but I have a hard time recommending it to people. There's a lot it gets right, but also a lot wrong. Even for its time, the animation often dips below the level of acceptability. But the strengths are structural, and the weaknesses are weaknesses of execution. I would pay good money to see a well thought remake of Dougram. Because a small budget can be remediated, but good design cannot be imitated.

[@ceowulf69]

I saw the "Documentary" version of it, and now I will start looking at it as a whole (I know this is a year old *shrug*)

[@williamcase426]

It is never too late

[@ceowulf69]

it never is !@@williamcase426

[@wolfsigma]

Maybe take a taste of the new series 86 too. It starts out being obvious and tropy but then trick you and turns out to be a deep and emotional war story.

[@bots2beasts]

The new Legendary Heroes series is also good. No "mobile suits" unless you count the heavy assault armors.

[@Comicsluvr]

I have a question and you seem like the guy to ask: I remember seeing an anime many years ago that seemed to be based in WWII because you had what looked like Nazi mecha fighting an Allied mecha. The Allied unit would be carried close to the battlefield on a train and then the turbines on the back had to be cranked up to start the machine. If I recall, it was animated VERY well for its day and the old-school design of the mecha was awesome.

[@MrBCWalker01]

Kishin Heidan ("Geo-Armor Kishin Corps"), a very Super Robot OVA series.

[@leifs.202]

Dang, been looking for something like this for a loooong time. Got kinda tired of the magical gundams and kids with special powers, Fang of the Sun Dougram sounds absolutely perfect!

[@Koniving]

Armored trooper votoms is also a good one to watch.

[@MoreEvilThanYahweh]

The UC Gundam timeline (the OG timeline) is fairly grounded as far as anime goes and was ground breaking at the time against all the truly kiddy mecha shows, the gross hyperbole at the start of your vid was kinda unfair It's almost like Battletech set during a hypothetical "Star League never fell" timeline where technology got crazier, armies stayed huge and there are like a dozen Morgan Kells.

[@jal1656]

I would say that 8th moble suit team is probably the closest Gundam and Battletech get.

[@Insanemage2001]

I will also second 08th MS team if you're looking for that sort of feel. Aldnoah Zero is also fun if you wanted to see how Gundam would do the Clan invasion, the bad guys have all the one off superweapons, the good guys are fighting the war in the mass produced junk

[@thunderheadstudio7388]

The perils of extemporaneous speaking. I agree with you that UC Gundam is fairly grounded and deals with many of the same themes. I hadn't meant to imply that Mobile Suit Gundam (one of my favorite mecha series) is as guilty of many of those sins, though there are Gundam spinoffs that very much are. We also didn't talk about Evangelion, which is what happens when you take all the worst Mecha tropes in the genre and put them in a pot with a broth made of loathing, both the writer's self loathing and his loathing for the mecha genre itself. Good times.

[@daltonmccormick5221]

The OYW era of UC Gundam is mostly grounded, exceptions being most of the OVAs being gloriously grounded. But once you get into Zeta Gundam the Newtype space magic gets a lot more prevalent and harder to swallow. I would put Iron Blooded Orphans over the UC for a grounded Gundam show.

[@thunderheadstudio7388]

@@daltonmccormick5221 I didn't mention Iron Blooded Orphans, but it's a favorite of mine. It still has some goofery in it, but it's like a very condensed re-telling of the best parts of the UC timeline.

[@saraphys5555]

Have you watched the Japanese Starship Troopers? No, not that one... The one from the 80's made by Sunrise, the guys who made Gundam. This is them at their best, and it always shows the reality and cost of war. Of course, if you go into it knowing old Rico is the narrator, then you know he lives. But they never play it up as character shields... its always that the Terran Forces are competent, and that rapid responses are always there. Example; war games between cadet groups go ahead despite the fact the other team didn't give a responding communique. Because it's on Mars, the instructors felt it was just the other team going dark for an Ambush. Instead, during the war games, Zimm notices that 2 Martian survey satellites are down, and replays the logs, noticing a "Meteor storm" knocked out 2 sats. He then investigates the logs of the Objective training base, and notices that not long after the meteors, the base went dark...long before the training exercise was ment to begin. He then informs command of a possible Bug breech on Mars, and Fleet has the planet lock down by the end of the episode. Rico is saved because the Instructors (actually Zimm) arrives in time to save them, deploying in their power armour and live rounds to save their recruits. If you want another example of good "mecha" anime for Battletech, the the 80's Starship Troopers anime!

[@MrPikaGammer]

I have its fuckin great, it was like watching the book infront of my eyes and defined how the armor looks in my mind

[@banditsix2870]

My introduction to mechs and mecha was Zoids. :D I still have a soft spot for Quads in Battletech, too, due to that.

[@Graus4201]

I have to say the best Military anime ever probably is Legend of Galactic Heroes. Just the way they show two different factions and all the differences it just ground breaking. Its is even X years old now and hasnt been topped and it was only an OVA. i still cant believe it

[@watchm4ker]

... *Only?!* It ran for 4 seasons and was 110 episodes long! That outruns any Mecha show I can think of, unless you combine the UC or CE-era Gundam shows into one super-series, and even then it had a new series a few years ago that *still in production*.

[@lordvanazir1007]

well I'm sold, just bookmarked the playlist and saved for later watching. so when do we get an official Battletech anime?

[@watchm4ker]

Ask Topps.

[@mechafan1178]

What about votoms?

[@onithedemonslayer3142]

Have you watched the spin off armor hunter mellowlink

[@GuntanksInSpace]

VOTOMS was what Heavy Gear was inspired by (like how Battletech/MechWarrior took from Macross and Dougram) no?

[@gusty9053]

@@onithedemonslayer3142 One of my favorites :))

[@thunderheadstudio7388]

Personally, I found the main series of VOTOMS to be very frustrating. The combat animations are a mixture of good individual fights with pretty awful mass battles where they just recycle the same frames over and over of Chirico scooting and shooting and random bad guys exploding. You rarely know how many people he is fighting, there are just "a lot" and they die in droves. That said, I love the look of the mecha. The Scopedog is an absolute classic, and Heavy Gear is a wonderful miniatures game spawned from that look/feel. Then there's the big "twist" at the end of the first VOTOMS series that made me roll my eyes so hard I strained my ocular muscles. I hear Mellowlink is fantastic but I have not seen it.

[@onithedemonslayer3142]

@@gusty9053 yeah my too I love the gorilla tactics he uses like setting up mines and ambushing the mechs its awesome

[@TherealTenmanI]

Hell yeah, watching it

[@SulliMike23]

I saw Dougram and made it about half-way through the series. I have yet to finish the whole series. But I'm hoping to do that one day. It really looks like it could've been the show Battletech the animated series could've been had FASA got the rights to have a company dub it in English.

[@gadget19k76]

6:30, look at the Heavy Gear universe. Heavy Gear is a universe where Gears (mechs) are about twice the hight of a human and work in combined arms combat, they act as kind of super heavy infantry, being more mobile and maneuverable than traditional tanks, but not able to carry the heavy armor and firepower that a tank can, but at the same time can move faster and carry heavier weapons than foot infantry. They have their place in the order of battle and it makes sense, and honestly from a practical point of view would be more likely to be developed than mobile suits or battlemechs.

[@williamcase426]

I also love that that they have deployable wheels like those Heely skate shoes that were somewhat popular in the early 2000's.

[@gadget19k76]

@@williamcase426 ya the SMS (Secondary Movement System) also makes sense, as it lessens the wear on leg parts during long distance movement and is faster than walking allowing Gears to keep up with tanks if needed. As to feasibility in real life, maybe eventually.

[@MrPikaGammer]

Heavy Gear is a complete self admitted rip off of Armored Trooper Votoms

[@gadget19k76]

@@MrPikaGammer And? He was discussing the implausible and unrealistic idea of giant mecha. Armored Troopers Votoms and Heavy Gear are more plausible and would make more sense in a realistic combat setting.

[@MrPikaGammer]

@@gadget19k76 I was just pointing out that if you like Heavy Gear you'd probably like Votoms the thing that it took everything including most of its setting from

[@williamcase426]

Sounds good. I'll give it a shot.

[@70briareos]

Oh yeah, have you ever seen "Armored Trooper VOTOMS" yet? If you haven't go watch it. I think you'll like that one too.

[@crazytiger800]

The BattleTech franchise as a whole is just what happens when Fang of the Sun Dougram decided to have a baby with Game of Thrones.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Only Battletech came first and the Tyrion-Tywin final scene in Game of Thrones takes several elements from a scene in Michael Stackpole's Warrior trilogy.

[@jccraftmage2313]

Preach! 🙌🙌🙌

[@gordon2402]

Wow cool Thanks for the tip 👍🏻🎶🤖

[@ottawamonsterpocalypse7729]

Dougram is the best Real Robot anime.

[@nanorider426]

Thank you for this video. I know that FASA stole a lot from of Gundam and Macross but this is rather new for me. I will watch Fang of the Sun - Dougram now. 😃 My credentials: Gamemaster in three Battletech/MechWarrior campaigns over three decades (late 90's, early 2010 and now). My players have a mercenary company in the Periphery north of Steiner and Kurita regions. So spot on Christopher. 👍

[@fatcatofalltime2415]

Hey there! I am very glad that you enjoy Dougram but did you know that a certain someone is working on a 1080p remaster that is on KZbin? I would give you a link or a suggestion of where to find it but KZbin has a tendency to delete comments like that lol.

[@RenegadeHPG]

Awesome! Send me a DM with the info

[@fatcatofalltime2415]

@@RenegadeHPG Ok I am not really sure how to send a DM on KZbin so I will send one to your Facebook page.

[@gundampharmacist7348]

To be fair, a lot of more modern mecha anime do have this problem, but not all of them - Iron Blooded Orphans is an excellent example for a more modern take; and yeah a LOT of the classics are like this - VOTOMS, L-Gaim, Layzner, and as you mentioned, Dougram, are all definite must watches for ‘real robot’ fans.

[@razif6916]

Scopedog aka Votoms a must watch.

[@vali6717]

The other show not named was Crusher Joe, whose only notable addition was the Locust.

[@MrBCWalker01]

Leopard dropship, Galleon light tank, and two or three AeroSpace fighters also come out of that property.

[@kjohnson9306]

I've always hoped that some Japanese company would take the Battletech novel "Wolves on the Border" and make a series based on that.

[@RenegadeHPG]

"Wolves on the Border" is BattleTech at its best and you are right, it would make for a very good miniseries.

[@dakaodo]

Chris Wailes hit exactly many of the points I haven't wanted to embrace about both Battletech and mecha anime. It brought a lot of ideas back to me, some of which I haven't thought about in decades. Anyone who doesn't feel like reading a Gen Xer's sad little trip down memory lane is perfectly welcome to skip this comment. :D Otherwise, thanks to RHPG and Chris for provoking these thoughts for me! Unlike Battletech, Japan's manga/anime industry latched onto this genre like a fierce little terrier. There's a mini-series much more recent than Dougram called Obsolete, also available on YT. And I've seen snippets from another one called A Short Peace. Much more recently and somewhat better known, 86 isn't exactly "mecha", but it really plays the "war is hell" topic. Japanese storytelling has held onto its Akira Kurasawa/samurai code war stories and translated them really well on occasion into novels, film, manga, and thus anime. It's not all 100% award-winning literature for adults. Many of the emotional cues to elicit sympathy are kind of obviously engineered following clear formulae (as it is in a lot of anime). But manga/anime can often be REALLY GOOD at doing this (reference the science of kawaii and moe), so I don't mind losing myself for a few moments in a tearjerker or bittersweet cute scene, be it high school romcom or "war is hell". :D If I had wanted prize-winning literature, I can easily go read prize-winning literature. Manga/anime mil SF scratches a little itch between genres that has been hard for me to find elsewhere in mil SF. I feel like mil SF written in English doesn't quite embrace the grace notes and leavening of pseudo-artsy pathos and tragedy, the way anime melodramatically does sometimes. Stuff akin to the little girl in the red coat in Schindler's List. And it certainly doesn't make it into Battletech. XD I grew up playing the OG tabletop box set for years. Without directly knowing about the post-apocalyptic genre (never saw Mad Max etc), I'm pretty sure I absorbed a lot of that aesthetic through the Cold War zeitgeist. After finding Btech, I had to read several post-WW 2 slash Cold War nuclear holocaust books on my high school book list. The focus and pseudo "fall of the Roman empire" vibe of a lot of that writing was drawn from literary inspirations like Anglo-Saxon epic poetry, actual pseudo/historical accounts of soldiers from the Classical period through the Vietnam War, etc because sci-fi and specifically military SF back then didn't have decades of self-referential iterations to build into its own thing. I liked the early themes William Keith wrote in his Gray Death Legion books. Beyond Btech canon, I loved the idea of a plantary culture, prematurely severed from interstellar trade before it could achieve self-sufficiency, which subsequently fell into semi techno barbarism. The idea of going on a mission/quest to destroy/capture the last functional mech on a planet, which itself is just obsolete and half-broken junk. Outside of Btech, the author David Drake played up these themes of fallen empires in military SF in some of his stories. But I noticed that the themes of military SF evolved over time as the US economy and public awareness of political/military activity both changed from the 70s through the early 2000s. Like cyberpunk, many newer entries flesh out their respective genre, but sometimes an element of the spectacle wins out over the originally bleak story elements. Cyberpunk today has been criticized has all chrome, no punk. More like cyberfantasy that plays up the aesthesthetics but only uses the antiestablishment themes as a cue or prompt for flashy action. Mil SF today doesn't have the same real existential hopelessness of peak Cold War stuff like On the Beach or A Canticle for Leibowitz. Understandably, b/c fiction reflects the culture of its time, and impending nuclear holocaust hasn't been something on most people's minds since 1991. And Battletech was one weathervane in that tide of change. I loved the small lore blurbs in the original box set manual, that laid out a setting where interstellar FTL ship construction was DEAD. Nada. Zip. Mankind had destroyed the last factory, and we were committed to tumbling into this long tailspin as we cannibalized existing mechs and jumpships to limp along, fighting to be the last dying rat on the trash heap of civilization. Btech officially moved on, and emphasized the munchkin aspects of Lostech, the Clans, etc with the Tech Readout 3050. You can tell which part of the fanbase was the growing demographic. Battletech never quite built a solid and permanent rapport with fans of the Twlight 2000 etc "war is hell" subgenre of military fiction and science fiction. For that stuff, you just need to go read actual "war is hell" soldiers' accounts IRL like All Quiet on the Western Front or The Forgotten Soldier. As another comment below said much more succinctly, Btech can be a lot of things to many people. I chose to stay entrenched in the IRL late 70s early 80s era of mil SF that surrounded the Battletech that could have been. :D Just like retrowave (there's even a guy with a channel who posts Btech-themed synthwave mixes).

[@NewsOfTheInnerSphere]

Today I learned that this mecha anime existed! I did not know that this was a thing!

[@nortran11]

Votoms for the WIN!

[@kalashnikovdevil]

Other solid anime for Battletech fans: Area 88 (yeah it's jets not mechs, but stick with it!) 8th MS Team (should be mandatory viewing, good stuff all the way through)

[@sardaukerlegion]

Problem is that's a LONG series, i'll need 2 months to watch this one.

[@Wildcat144]

One point I often see too many people bring up. "Mechs make no sense. There is no conceivable reason for them to exist" No, there very much is. Mechs are not tanks. They do not perform the same functions of a tank. This is the Bradley is bad argument all over. The mech is not there as a vehicle to simply go over trenches or be a force multiplier. What is the duty of a tank in the modern age? Well it has a few, to be a force multiplier, and to fight other enemy tanks on behalf of the infantry. Now a mech can fulfill these as well, but that wouldn't be exactly what you would use them for. You could easily use mechs in more remote and difficult terrain that tanks and other vehicles have issues getting to. Jungles, mountains, swamps, and various other terrains tanks have problems getting to or being in. A mech was actually he rather stable in those environments thank a tank, while being able to bring the same firepower to the field. Tanks and mechs are not competitors. They are different classes of vehicle for different purposes.

[@SeismicWolf]

Gundam is more Magical Girl than Mecha....I love that hahaha

[@Mord12gp]

Just watched every episode. Daugram is not average, it can take on two or three combat armors and has PLOT ARMOR that is 5 miles thick. Dougram get hit and tanks damage that would one shot another armor.

[@SolomonSamson747]

You should also check out Armored Trooper VOTOMS