Why Fantasy Races RUIN Immersive Roleplaying Games

[@matteopapaiz]

I believe what you are saying is the precise reason why people choose to play non human characters. I am not saying you are wrong but it is in essence a paradoxical argument. Also I remember the guy who asked why the aliens in the Star Trek series were all humanoid and the producer asked him if he knew some non humanoid actors looking for work.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

badass

[@kitirena_koneko]

As an aside, one of the reasons why I was drawn to Farscape was because of the non-humanoid aliens. I like most of the Star Trek series, but after a while I got more than a little sick of TNG's "Enterprise goes to alien planet no human has gone to before, meets aliens that look like people from Southern California with funny squiggles on their foreheads".

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@kitirena_koneko facts look up Donghua(Chinese animation) the mythical creatures an godlike changed people who feast on spirit beast taming an alchemy food kick so much ass then 8583 races that look like Spock

[@kitirena_koneko]

@@senritsujumpsuit6021 So, it's essentially China's answer to anime? Yeah, Asian folklore and mythologies make some of the stories of Faerie from Europe look downright tame, and if you know anything about the Fair Folk, they AIN'T Tinkerbell!

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@kitirena_koneko Donghua has been around for a long time it rapidly evolved with the last two decades series sporting varying visual styles one can mimic a painting while another has thread lines through it as it it was woven traditionally on top of being far less scared to hyper parody an meme with there shows coffin dance has been used for pete sake :3

[@redeye3869]

Frieren Beyond Journey’s End does a really good job portraying elves and their alien concept of time in a unique way.

[@RandomPerson-b1s]

By that logic, even human characters can ruin immersive roleplaying. In most games you play as individuals with experiences, lives and cultures completely different from our baseline, and not many people are good at interpreting that. Even worse, not many RPG authors even tell you what you need to know in order to interpret those characters correctly. As in information on their daily life, on their religion, on their outlooks, on their tradition. You kind of have to wing it, same as the fantasy races, and I think it's part of the fun of RPGs, see what people do with their characters.

[@k4pn0]

but but I worked so hard on my tiefling horns

[@HighShepherdLopes]

To be fair. Tieflings technically ARE humans. They are just cursed with demonic heritage and blessed with cool horns!

[@kitirena_koneko]

If it's any consolation, I worked hard on my catgirl ears and tail, nyao.

[@chucklesdeclown8819]

I mean, your right, i dont know what its like to live like an elf or a dwarf or even a race thats a bit further outside humans like lizzardfoak. But the thing is, we dont know whats going through the heads of the large majority of living things. I dont know what its like to be a bear, i can only assume that it prioritizes its survival based on how it acts through observation but for all i know, a bear could have a divine nature to it, what does it think about and dream about durring hibernation? Does it have ambitioms and goals behyond my comprehention or does it think about simple things? As far as i can tell, we havent really tried to look into other animals brains very extensively to see what they're thinking about. We can only guess and i dont think they're devoid of human experience. Fantasy races arent nessesarily either. Going back to fantasy, I think its hard because you can guess what they're thinking about but you can never truly know but the issue is trying to make an educated guess doesnt nessesarily have to be devoid of human emotion either because lets be honest, most fantasy races are still full of human emotion. If we go back to elves, they're often depicted as isolationist and on a high horse which arent nessesarily emotions "alien" to us. We just dont nessesarily know how those apply to being an elf at all times and im not a pro actor so lord knows if i tried to pull that off id certainly fail but i think there is a certain charm to that as well. We're trying to think behyond what we normally do as humans but cant completely get past human elements because thats kind of been ingrained within us day 1. However, i dont think all that should be a reason to not play these races even inserious games, i actually think it should be a reason to give them a shot more often.

[@HontounoShiramizu]

The problem is even worse if you take into account that it's not just a difference between a bear and a human but with a bear-like race that despite it managed to create a civilization. Without a social/economic structure every fantasy race even if sentient would be pretty much just a quirky animal. Very few settings ever tried to establish those as anything other than "humans with a very strong accent on X aspect" because it's near impossible to imagine that.

[@chucklesdeclown8819]

@@HontounoShiramizu that's true too, and even when it gives you more details some dms just throw that out to make it easier for roleplay. Take kenku from 5E, for example, according to their lore in MM and if I recall some other book, they can only speak in mimicry(they must mimic other people) and cannot have an original thought. How do you roleplay that? forgetting that their execution method is actually quite creative with (which I still have a hard time believing they came up with that if they can't have original thought) how would you go about playing someone/thing that can only speak in things they've heard in the past while also not being original. What even counts as an original thought? Anyway, dms(or at least so I've heard) scratch that to make them easier to roleplay but you kind of got rid of what made them unique in the first place.

[@RedGamerFox]

@@chucklesdeclown8819I think it’s less that kenku can’t have original thoughts and more that their vocal function can’t create typical lingual speech patterns unless they have some preexisting auditory reference, kinda like how some settings make it so changelings don’t have their own facial features and have to adapt them from another person they’ve seen. I’ve seen some interpretations for this limitation not apply it to when they speak auran, which is the default bird/air-based creature language, so kenku _do_ have their own voice and speech patterns when speaking auran, just not other languages.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@HontounoShiramizu Pathfinder 2E has awakened animals with detailed description on how they work same with awakened items via a recent new heritage for Poppets this is just the tip of the iceberg for how much worldbuilding the team writes

[@decadesyearoldthingsreview6595]

Call of Cthulhu GMs continuously hitting the table upon the realisation they can’t portray beings beyond our comprehension

[@thefrabert]

There is a point to this. Modern RPGs incentivize players to view race as a block of benefits rather than a change in the way a character interacts with the world. To make it worse, many of the newer races don’t have a broad enough literary background to provide an example of how to roleplay them. However, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that playing as a nonhuman race is impossible in an improvisational setting. An underestimated hobbit (Tolkien) and a timeless elf (Frieren, not Tolkien) both stay very close to the core of humanity while possessing a singular characteristic that sets them apart. By rolling back the gameplay differences and possibly incentivizing players to choose human characters, it should be possible to bring these classic perspectives to an immersive fantasy game delivered by players committed to the in-depth roleplay it takes to make it work.

[@TrillTheDM]

To be clear, I don't think that playing a non human race is impossible. What breaks my immersion is when creators give too much consideration to making fantasy races TOO alien that they essentially make them impossible to play. At that point I don't even know why you'd allow them to be a playable race in the first place. That is contrasted by the first point where I explain that creators giving no consideration to these fantasy races is just as immersion breaking i.e. Human with pointy ears. I do think there is a middle ground where you can have a distinct and interesting fantasy race that is able to be roleplayed without having to rely on basic fantasy tropes. Just takes a bit of work both on the creator and the player's side. That is ultimately rare in my experience.

[@RandomPerson-b1s]

@@TrillTheDM By that logic, most creators don't even give that much consideration to the humans and their culture. And even to what kind of life people with certain abilities might have led, or how those abilities influence them.

[@TrillTheDM]

@@RandomPerson-b1s yes.

[@Drakelis]

So I watched this and sat with my thoughts on it a little bit and I've come to several conclusions: 1. At this stage in my roleplaying career, someone not playing a particular race/species/kin/whatever exactly as they "should" at all times, is not immersion breaking for me. I am more focused on the overall story, what are the themes we're telling, and how the characters are working together and their interpersonal stories. The fact that someone doesn't roleplay an elf 100% accurate at all times doesn't bother me and if it does ruin immersion for you, that tells me you should figure out why that ruins the immersion. 2. Even if a human player cannot 100% reflect a given race during play, the whole point is the roleplay challenge of it. We are -playing a role-. I am a human commoner all the time in my real life, there's very little challenge to play a human in a fantasy setting. To me, trying to play a Klingon Counselor in a Star Trek game is more interesting than trying to play a human one. I'm currently playing a Lizardfolk Redemption Paladin in a game. The challenge is: how does a Lizardfolk reflect the ideals of the Redemption oath. If I just played a human, I would likely end up playing the stereotypical redemption paladin, with little variation. The challenge of the roleplay comes from the racial choice of a creature that thinks so differently from a human, from myself. THAT is the immersion, that is the challenge. 3. Fantasy and Sci Fi as genres are not supposed to be simulations of environments and situations. At their core, Fantasy and Sci Fi grew out of a desire to tell stories that reflect something about society or the past present and future through an altered lens. Do you need different races to do that? No, but the contrast and differences allowed by it enhance that commentary. Taken to tabletop games, this feels like the same argument of: "Well your roleplay wasn't very convincing to the me, the DM, running this NPC guard, so you have disadvantage on your Persuasion check." 4. Taking this argument to its extreme conclusion, the perspective of something not being able to be reflected accurately all the time breaking immersion means there should also be no magic or other fantastical elements, because those elements aren't reflected in your typical medieval fantasy setting or RPG game. Which turns this into just historical roleplay. Which, if you want to do that, fine, but just know we're talking now about two very different experiences at that point.

[@HontounoShiramizu]

All true. I would even argue that in extreme example most modern humans wouldn't even be able to properly roleplay medieval peasants or burghers since the common conceptions of them are mostly either missing (hardly anyone wanted to write about them during medieval times), deliberately distorted (by renaissance authors writing propaganda to criticize previous system) or written by people that had very little in common with them to even begin to understand them.

[@TrillTheDM]

Unfortunately a lot of your response is built on a straw man representation of what I discussed but I'll respond in good faith. 1. That is your perspective and that's a fine approach to roleplaying. My issue isn't that somebody doesn't roleplay correctly all the time, it's that elves haven't been given the appropriate consideration from the very start, from the player or the creator. 2. I fully agree and this point is made based on the straw man that I think people not roleplaying accurately 100% of the time is a problem. The problem I have is that the majority of the time people aren't even giving the considerations you're giving to your lizard folk character. I also don't agree with your thoughts on human characters and tells me you should figure out why you're so limited in your portrayal of human characters that you'd have to rely on a stereotypical character. 3+ 4. Never said they should be. Nothing about these points addresses anything I said unless you just misunderstood the point of what I was saying.

[@sanja2776]

@@TrillTheDM No, you said that playing fantasy races is breaking immersion for you because people can't play them "correctly" (my understanding of your thoughts). In that same vein, magic aslo breaks immersion, every other fantasy element breaks immersion, and then we can just play "Knights and peasants" (and since the records about peasant life aren't exactly copious, I doubt we can do that either). Me personally, I never play humans in any of my TTRPGs, because making my fantasy/sci fi race (prefering dragonborns and ysokis) different from humans is my own personal challenge and special enjoyment in the game. Do I do it right? I have no idea, as you said, we don't know any ysoky or dragonborn. Do I and my coplayers have enormous amount of fun? Hell yeah, we do. How do I know that? Laughter and year long campaigns. I cannot say that you are wrong in your oppinions, I can only give you my personal, subjective oppinion that your thoughts are a complete opposite of what a good fantasy game is. And I'm sorry that your playing experience has brought to this video, it certainly hasn't been good.

[@TrillTheDM]

@@sanja2776 Massive misinterpretation and assumption on your part. Pretty unfortunate. I clearly state that the vast majority of the time people don't take them seriously and essentially just play them as trope humans with pointy ears. I have an issue with this because at that point they are offering nothing besides vanity and skill points. This is just the majority of the time, not ALL THE TIME. I then state that when they are given extreme consideration then creators go outside the bounds of what is possible to be played in an improvisational setting. I think the miscommunication here is in your assumption that I don't think there's somewhere in the middle where fantasy races are given considerable enough attention to be distinct while also not being too difficult to play in an improv setting. The video is quite literally about the extremes of fantasy races, No Consideration vs Over consideration, maybe down the line I'll talk about how they're great for immersive roleplaying games and where the middle ground is necessary, but this video isn't about that.

[@sanja2776]

@@TrillTheDM I'm sorry, I just don't see it in your video. But as I said, there is no right or wrong side here, just me misinterpreting your thoughts and sticking with my all fantasy races parties 😇

[@DeDraconis]

This kind of sounds like a personal and subjective problem you're having. The varied races have never been something that's ruined my sense of immersion.

[@TrillTheDM]

Everything I say is actually objectively factual. Unfortunate.

[@DeDraconis]

@@TrillTheDM I respect the confidence in your reply.

[@pleasegoawaydude]

@@TrillTheDM You would fucking HATE Xenofiction. You suck.

[@Candlemancer]

​@@TrillTheDM Narcissistic much? Grow the fuck up.

[@steveholmes11]

That is because you are not playing " made up fairies and monsters" seriously enough. Unlike the author. He uses Emperor's New clothes logic.

[@NightDangerRPG]

A fantasy race being an exaggeration of human traits is a feature not a bug. In the same way that Alignment gives concrete, delineated "Sides" to the conflicts of D&D, fantasy races create a predictable, stable set of opposed dispositions and worldviews that feed into conflict and incentivize wargaming. If I'm the leader of a faction of Dwarves, the shorthand stereotypes about dwarves that permeate gaming culture give me a quick and easy idea for how to direct my actions (Dig deeper, kill goblins, resent elves, pragmatically interact with humans, hold long grudges, etc.). In a strictly human setting, the temptation becomes very strong to simply act in whatever way I think will make my faction "win" and optimization culture over time will determine best practices . The caricaturized fantasy race provides guard rails that limit possible behaviours for me and force me to act in a way that I may not be inclined to do so as a regular human in the same context.

[@TrillTheDM]

I don't disagree. For me personally though the tropes of fantasy races are immersion breaking unless I'm playing in a campaign where one of the goals is to capture that classic fantasy feeling. This is just a me thing though, I don't believe them to be objectively bad, just subjectively in the context of a character focused campaign. I think there's a lot of space though for creative expression when it comes to fantasy races and it wouldn't take much to create a different set of interesting parameters that don't necessarily reflect classic tropes or archetypes. Something a bit more complex but not so complex as to be impossible to RP. In the wargame context or beer and pretzels I would agree with you. I think caricature races are just fine depending on the context of the campaign type. Probably not something I made clear enough in the video but you live and learn.

[@NightDangerRPG]

@@TrillTheDM It is a category error to classify the wargame level as "Beer and Pretzels", a campaign with meaningful character agency will by necessity have the faction/wargame level available to the players. The caricature is a starting point, the depth is emergent through the actions of the characters. In this way, a campaign's "lore" or setting is itself generative over the course of sessions

[@TrillTheDM]

I would not classify it in the same category, sorry if that wasn't clear. The wargame style and beer and pretzels style are distinct game types that can and do overlap. I agree that trope or caricature is a starting point and even in a character focused campaign can be a very solid foundational start. The problem I have is that I think there are a lot of people who never take it further than just trope. or just caricature. Even through their action within play. That is where immersion is broken for me personally. One part I might push back on though and this is just a based on subjective experience. I'm not sure that the players typically interested in the war game element are as considerate of character. Obviously there are exceptions to this but I've found that many of the players that embrace the war game aspect tend to focus on it not through the lens of character but rather through their own self in an effort to "win" I guess this depends on how you view character play itself. From my experience a lot of players simply approach the game and play as themselves, making meta decisions based on the system and game that is in their best interest and view their character as the sum of this decision making. For instance a mistake would be a personal failing for them rather than a purposeful act in an effort to play into a flaw their character may have that they themselves as a person do not. Interesting convo nonetheless.

[@lionelwhiskerknot]

I think you can play fantasy races but the problem is the majority of players play them like humans. A elf is not going to be in a hurry to go anywhere when their perception of time is different due to their long lifespan. A human might be in a rush to get to the dungeon in 3 days where an elf might consider 3 months quick. This of course depends on the background of the races involved in the game. In the White Wolf games you have flaws or conditions like blood thirst that the player must consider or risk losing control temporarily of their character. In playing a race other than human one should consider what separates them from humanity or other races and can cause conflict or stress. I would imagine the new modernized DnD likely makes the problem worse as now it aims to make all the races the same with no inherited advantages or disadvantages over other races. They have become humans wearing the skinsuit of another race. I suppose you could always throw in some cultural or religious differences to spice things up. I mean.... you had cannibalistic halflings in Dark Suns.

[@TrillTheDM]

It's interesting to me that you would put it on the players. To me the players have just been playing what they're told is good roleplay for the races. That and the get along gang expectations of modern play I think stifle player creativity because people don't necessarily separate character from player. Thanks for the thoughts!

[@lionelwhiskerknot]

@@TrillTheDM Well... It is not all on the players. The DM is responsible for creating and populating the game world. He needs to convey the basics of the most common cultures, religions, and major political powers. For example the worlds of Conan, Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, and Elric of Melnibone are similar for sword and sorcery but they have very different cultures and political powers. It is also good to give a basic history to players such as wars that have occurred between nations and both magical and natural catastrophes that have forged the world. This helps the players roleplay grudges and initial prejudice they might have when meeting other races or even other nations of humans. They can either overcome these or further promote the stereotypes. Sadly, it seems most game worlds today are shallow with all nations and races loving each other in total harmony. My personal preference is a more gritty fantasy world where life isn't fair and make sure that the world constantly reminds them of that fact. However, it makes the rewards for success all the sweeter for the players.

[@taragnor]

I don't know. The thing is that regardless of your perception of time, things like urgency and difficulty still matter. A grueling 3 day trek through a swamp is a miserable 3 day trek regardless of how long you live. While you may approach somethings differently, like a 5 year prison sentence, most of your adventuring tasks would be similar to how a human would decide. After all, if the orcs are coming to burn your village, does it really matter if you have 10 more years to live or 150? That won't affect your decision to make haste to warn the village. And in most cases, besides a modified lifespan, nonhuman races in D&D don't tend to be all that different from D&D races. They still have the basic biological needs, and in fact very similar biology. We for instance don't even see little things like "alcohol is very poisonous to elves." We are told dwarves have this close association with the earth, but it isn't really something the rules make us care about. We don't see dwarves with agoraphobia or those that can't get a restful sleep on the second floor of an inn. Elves practice the same kind of magic that humans do. They get the same set of skills. Everything about the mechanics basically tells us they're slightly different humans, with lifespan being the main only difference and even that isn't felt, because despite your starting elf being 100 years old, you don't feel like you've seen or know more than the 17 year old half-orc. Fantasy races behave like human subcultures because more or less they are.

[@lionelwhiskerknot]

@@taragnor You make a fair point on the slog through the swamp. Your other points are good too. Right now by the book you are completely correct as the goal of modern D&D has been to make the races the same with no advantages over the other. Part of this is politically motivated in a modern world where people are so easily offended and so race has become something cosmetic and having no meaning. The other part is to simplify the game. Personally, I think this is a mistake. There is nothing wrong with races being inherently better at some things as long as you balance it out. It is true of real life as a thin long legged person will tend to be a better runner due to stride but would make a terrible horse jockey compared to a short person. Elves typically have been the Mary Sue of DnD in the past. See in the dark, don't sleep, extra dex, immune to sleep and charm, and so forth. I think adding in a large amount of racial feats for each race that aren't all combat focused would be better and then let players select them at start. Giving a large selection will also allow you to tailor races so some species of elves are different from other elves. Elves that grew up in the desert for example might have a tolerance for heat while elves from the snowy mountains might have a tolerance for cold. I believe Pathfinder does something like this. Then again some might feel this makes the game complicated. As a gamemaster I try to make deeply immersive worlds with various cultures and religions. Some races will be more powerful and that is how it is. If there is country filled with giants then the smaller races might have to combine their armies to defeat them. However, my players are long term and been with me for over 30+ years. Deeply immersive and prepared worlds won't necessarily work for casual players.

[@krinkrin5982]

@@lionelwhiskerknot I've been mostly playing D&D 3 before switching to Warhammer, and my view of races is quite different to how D&D 5e wants to see them. Back then you had a pretty significant difference in both physiology and psychology between races. Dwarves were naturally better at delving into underground places, while elves were naturally better at trecking under the natural night sky. While everyone could learn the same spells, you had preferences toward specific classes that were implied to be based on the common culture and disposition of that specific race. There were also a lot more non-combat abilities that you got automatically that differentiated characters. Warhammer takes it even further, having unique starting carrier tables for every race, and giving them distinct cultures and psychology. It is heavily human-focused, but it has both multiple human nations, and multiple dwarf and elf nations. It uses historical references and stereotypes to immerse players and give them an innate understanding on how different nations and cultures think. It also approaches the typical tropes in a much more grounded and realistic manner. Why do the dwarves and elves hate each other? In generic fantasy they just do. Sometimes it's explained as elves looking down at everyone, and sometimes it's explained by philosophical differences. In Warhammer the elves and dwarves used to be friends, trade and ally with each other. Then a group of dark elves did a false flag operation by attacking a dwarven caravan and pinning the blame on the elven kingdom. The dwarves demanded reparations, but the elves denied them (since it wasn't them and they viewed the whole thing as a farce) and gravely shamed the diplomats. At which point the dwarves declared war and basically threw the elves from the continent at grave losses. This ancient conflict is the source of the enmity that the two feel toward each other. It does the same with different elf and dwarf races and nations. It also has some truly alien species with unique cultures, in the form of both orks and lizardmen.

[@matsh5633]

But I love my little crow guy... I even studied a little crow behavior to try (and fail) to portray him faithfully 😥

[@atlanderwrites]

Same with me and my Dragonborn. I use my hands to show how her ear-fans move when she’s happy.

[@RamyElMusic]

I came to a similar conclusion after an experience I had DMing for an elf PC. In the world I tried to establish that given their long lifespans, elves and other long-lived races don’t just hate half-elves for “not fitting in”, but rather they see the elf parent as irresponsible, short-sighted and naive for having a child with a human, both of whom will die of old age before that elf reaches their middle age. Elven cultures saw it as tragic and avoidable, which is why it was so discouraged and usually punishable by exile. This concept isn’t even all that alien, but it was my attempt to make the elves feel like a genuinely different race in the setting. My player’s elf PC actively rejected this cultural concept and explicitly believed “you should be free to be with whoever you want.” Fair enough, he should be free to portray his character however he wants to. And if it were taken more seriously it could have been interesting to play out, for him to be one of the few elves who disagree on the subject. But that roleplay decision led me to feel that he was basically playing a pointy-eared human at this point, there wasn’t anything meaningful associated with being an elf anymore. I agree with your sentiment, but I personally have a difficult time implementing those kinds of racial cultural differences at the table while also preserving the players’ freedom to create the satisfying character they want to create. Great video!

[@MrFish1124]

I've always preferred playing the game somewhat casually, so I understand that I'm not really the target audience for the video. I just want to make it more clear that I'm not trying to be really argumentative in any way. I think one of the things that really draws me into D&D isn't the low magic medieval france aesthetics, it's all of the high magic planar elements around. The eternal Bloood War fought between the Abyss and Nine Hells is absolutely one of my top favorite things about D&D lore. I'm also a really big fan of Orcus because he's by far the most extreme demon lord. All the others want to conquer or cause general mayhem, but Orcus wants to eliminate all life in the universe and turn all of existence into barren wastelands. Immersing myself into a different species is already kind of hard to fully imagine, but I couldn't really begin to imagine just simply living in a world where it's a real possibility that being on a ship that gets caught in a storm could have me sent straight to the elemental plane of water where I will just die with no escape or enslaved by a Marrid if I'm lucky. We live in a world where gods, ghosts, magic, monsters, or even space aliens, are only stories or mythology with more likely alternate explanations. D&D and other fantasy media exists in a place where a lot of this or all of this is proven to be completely factual. I absolutely love this stuff about D&D and those are biggest draws for me into the game and the genre, but those things by themselves already makes it hard for me to feel realistically immersed in a realistic way. Before I start thinking about what a Dwarf or a Shifter would be like, I can't help but struggle thinking about what anybody would be like in this environment.

[@TrillTheDM]

Yeah that's absolutely fine. As you said this video is targeting a specific audience and a specific style of game while pointing out the pitfalls of fantasy races when applied to that style of game. I completely agree and I think the more you play the more you rectify the issues that make you struggle to fully buy in and become immersed or engaged. Appreciate the comment!

[@scrimblobimblo6289]

It's kinda funny how this argument applies to elves, dwarves, and basically nothing else. Take halflings for instance. Straight up based on early 1900s Englishmen from the countryside. Gnomes are fey, but not like "etherial beauty" fey, just wacky pranksters and craftsmen. And Dragonborn are literally just humans with dragon blood. With a few exceptions (Aasimar come to mind), DnD fantasy races were never meant to be "inhuman" in any real sense. Just humans who look different and have weird powers.

[@TrillTheDM]

It applies to any fantasy race you choose to include in your game regardless of system.

[@Not_Here_To_Make_Friends]

"And Dragonborn are literally just humans with dragon blood." There's literally a passage in the 2014 Player's Handbook where a character is surprised to see her [Dragonborn] adoptive father look upon her with the indifference of a dragon. They are 100% intended to be inhuman.

[@RoninCatholic]

Dragon Blood Sorcerers are more draconic than Dragonborn as a race, LOL.

[@lordjalor]

Two months late to this video. I can't find the tweet, but I saw someone point out that D&D 5e labeling "Common" as the spoken and written language of Humans in their worlds subtly indicates that the game was written from a Human-centric point of view. That Humans have propagated themselves to a point that they are "common." Therefore it can be posited that (at least for D&D 5e) we are supposed to treat every non-human species as "different beyond comprehension" from an experiencial standpoint. That these nonhuman species are meant to be viewed and boiled down to their base stereotype. This makes sense when we remember that we saw them add in the Orc, Goblin, and every other variation on a Beastfolk species later on in the game's lifespan, and why the (arguably archaic) alignment system labeled Elves as one alignment, and Orcs another. Imagine the developer's surprise when players wanted to play as a Goblin. Maybe it's not that deep; just food for thought. But I can (sort of) see where you're coming from. The exasperation of realizing the worldbuilding doesn't take into account the cause and effect of being (insert fantasy race). I think one has to at least consider the socio-geopolitical effect of having a species that lives as long as elves. The reason I say sort of though is because I don't share the same passion and fervor on the issue as you do. I've just found that thinking about it to that extent is too much for my regular players to understand/fully grasp being adults with dayjobs. Currently, in the shared homebrew setting my friends and I play in, we sort of treat all species as having a "shared mortal experience" where species mingle and intermingle in shared cities. This is so that they all have a shared culture and we don't have to do the legwork of defining the socio-geopolitical ramifications of there being Elves. We chalk that all up to "ancient history" in the realm's history. P.S. I recognize I'm probably not the target audience of this video. I will admit the mindset you put forward in your video is not for me.

[@yellingintothewind]

For playable "fantasy" races, I think Shadowrun does it best. They are all humans, well meta-humans at least. There is no long lasting deep lore of the elves, because elves have only been around a handful of generations, depending on which part of Shadowrun you're using. So like VtM, the situation revolves around people who are distinctly different from humans, but who have human grandparents, and the struggle to fit within a rapidly changing world.

[@TrillTheDM]

Yeah there are definitely some systems that do it better. The video title and stuff is a bit clickbaity admittedly lmao but I do think the discussion is important. I've always liked Shadowrun and I think you're right on the money as to why. Appreciate the insight!

[@yellingintothewind]

@@TrillTheDM I largely agree with you that most generic eruopean middle ages fantasy settings (D&D, Warhammer, et cetera) do it poorly. In my current campaign, players are restricted from adult elves. They can play a young elf, as elves send their youth out into the world, not to return until they understand _why_ the elves do not interfere with the affairs of mortals. This process starts around age 20, and can take upwards of 80 years, though most elves return within 40. They also must keep their heritage carefully secret from society at large. This lets players be their usual weird selves without implying anything about adult elves. For their part, adult elves look on humans much like humans look on Octopi: they are super smart, super resourceful, and it's a real shame they only live 3 years.

[@tetri90]

@@yellingintothewind I quite like this, as my main problem with elves (and other long lived races) in D&D is age. It just doesn't make sens to me to have a character still be as incompetent as level 1 characters if they have several decades of experience (unless they are particularly untalented / lazy but then how do they suddenly grow at a neck-breaking pace once the campaign starts ?).

[@TheTb2364]

I reached a similar conclusion while worldbuilding some time ago. I noticed that when writing human cultures I make them more distinct and interesting than when coming up with non-human "playable" groups, which tended to turn out either one note or too alien to remain in focus. Eventually I just dropped them entirely and focused on human nations completely.

[@AlissahKat]

im glad you mentioned world of darkness games being an outlier in this problem. Because that was the main thing I was thinking about during the first half of the video, lol. I actually agree. In a lot of dnd tables, picking different races seem to barely matter. Whereas if you pick a different "race" in a world of darkness game, the vibe completely changes, and it has a massive impact on how your character reacts to things, what they value, what their goals are etc. Each different splat has different mechanics and powers, different cultures etc. That's just something im really missing with medieval fantasy games like dnd. Dnd also has the problem of alignment. Where X race is always X alignment. I think that's boring and really doesn't leave much room for creativity or individuality. I prefer to stay away from black and white good vs evil, and like some more in depth stuff.

[@d.m.515]

One of the reasons I like Traveller. They go into incredible depth to discuss each of the races and set up how they differ from humans. Not only does it allow for proper alien strangeness, but where the parallel points cross to allow these highly different species to relate to each other. Plus, it doesn’t weigh on stereotype, it shows where the cultural and individual variation appear.

[@sparsehumor7521]

I agree broadly. I think in a low fantasy setting like Dragon Age it can be done in a way where like most of these other races are very human and aren't that different but still have very different cultural influences (maybe this is just my love of Origins talking). One thing I enjoy doing a lot (like you pointed out with vampires and stuff) is having different 'races' occur as a quirk of birth or a transformation later in life. Like a Tiefling is born of human parents but they were born with demonic influence, so they are just a human with horns. That means some physical difference and it changes how people treat them, but they're still a person on the inside. Or like OG Tolkein Orcs being transformed Elves, they were once 'human' but were changed forcefully by someone or something. This also avoids the weirdness of fantasy race corresponding with real life race. Whenever a piece of media tries to address this its usually a bit corny and stupid because real life race is made up pseudoscience but fantasy race is based in actual for real physical and mental differences.

[@LordofGoblins12]

Honestly, my thing with this video is that, maybe it's due to my own special cocktail of mental conditions, but I honestly relate more to Elves than I do to Humans in most fantasy settings. Some bits are missing like I'm not super in touch with nature but like. Time passes me by very often, which I'm sure an elf can relate to due to their concept of human years being more akin to a month for us. Then there's my lack of mutual understanding with other people, I can't read people and they have a hard time reading me. I'm hyper specialized, as an Elf would be if they're not in a hurry to do anything other than what they already want to do. I live a very quiet and secluded life and feel bombarded by the changes in society and have barely gotten finished processing what I'm having in my coffee. I also have sensitive eyes and ears, like elves do. The difference is mine are a hinderance in the modern era, full of technology and lights. Elves aren't necessarily aloof, but they seem aloof, they have different social cues, different expressions of emotion, and I inherently tend to relate to them better than I do other humans in fantasy. Arguably, one could say I should just play a Half Elf so that full Elves can be an even higher extreme than I experience in these symptoms, and I could give them that. I simply wanted to post this to say that Elves even when given traits that would seem impossible to empathize with, can still fit into someone's lived experience, sometimes better than a human character. Also to add to this, many of these fantasy races aren't necessarily made to be truly alien, they're meant to be representations of human questions, anxieties and facets. This is because of their Mythological Routes which often exist as a way to answer Why to questions that humans couldn't possibly understand back then.

[@An_Ian]

Given how the average human in the medieval times had a life expectancy of about 30 years, It makes perfect sense some of us would relate more to our knife eared kin that the humans living a life our grandparents grandparents grandparents might find outdated but nostalgic.

[@LordofGoblins12]

@@An_Ian Honestly I'm not even to my 30s and I still relate closer to elves lol.

[@An_Ian]

@@LordofGoblins12 Im 27 and I relate to non humans more in fiction as a rule

[@Theokal3]

As someone who's full on in the "Humans are boring" camp, it sounds to me that the problem is more that fantasy races as you see them tend to be written not so well. They just need to be written with more complexity and like they can have just as much variety as human in personnality, it's not rocket science. Personally fuck playing as a human, if I'm in a game where I can be anything, i want to be some kind of weird creature with unusual features of magic powers. Why complexify things with extra races? Because it's fun and more interesting really. Immersion *is* nice, I won't deny, but if you push it too far you're just trying to go for a reproduction of reality -which isn't interesting when you got the option to make a rich imaginary world.

[@michaelweigand9346]

There’s a culture of elves in my world that are based on the Romani struggle, who were basically disowned or abandoned by the “high elves”. And their resistance/persistence movement is one of the big backgrounds of the world. And for some reason dwarves are from Chicago or Appalachia. It can help reference society’s inequalities without getting too disruptive

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Oh that is a very good point. However I don't think this is an issue. Fantasy races don't ruin my immersion personally, and I can still take them seriously. I love fantasy, so I can buy a lot of weird and buff, even campy stuff at times. This is a personal thing with me. So I understand if this KZbinr is not completely on board with fantasy races. The problem with fantasy races isn't an issue. The thing is that real world races have the same problem. If there is a human of color in book, movie or TV show they are likely to fall under one stereotype or another. This is especially true of older media before PC starts to kick in. If a character is Asian, they are likely to be good at academics, martial arts or both. If a character is black, they are likely to be good at sports or rap. If they are Hispanic, they are good at gardening and housekeeping. If they are Jewish, they are good at banking and finances. These trends are problematic. They are inaccurate to the person of color experience. They even dehuminaze such people to just a stereotype. The examples I gave are the relatively tame ones. Heaven forbid if such a stereotype is negative and thus fuels xenophobia and hate crimes. Racism in general is a very complex topic.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

There are different kinds of racism ranging from mild to extreme. The more extreme it gets, the easier it is to recognize it as morally wrong. So it is easier to avoid. One can learn to respect other races by going from easy to hard. At the most basic level, one needs to learn to learn that genocide is wrong. Then the next level is where someone learns that displacement and slavery is wrong. Then at the next level one learns that segregation and assimilation is wrong. There are not just a few levels. There are multiple levels in a continuous spectrum. At the most advanced level one learns about really subtle forms of discrimination. Then they learn this is wrong. This gets into "woke" level. This level includes slurs, structural discrimination and microaggresions. Cultural appropriation is perhaps the most subtle. It is the opposite of genocide on the racism spectrum. Stereotypes also go in this woke advanced category. It is very difficult to depict a person of color in media without falling into offensive stereotypes. It takes a lot of effort and research. I have heard of Disney movies using whole advisory boards. They have a race of people which are depicted in the movie. Then they give advice on making the depiction accurate and respectful. This happened with the movie Moana and it's depiction of Polynesians. Depicting races without stereotyping is difficult. It happens, whether someone uses fantasy races or real races. So one may as well use fantasy races, if they are into that thing. Be aware that fantasy races get coding with real races. There are races coded like people of color. They are traditionally depicted as evil and monstrous. This is an issue with orcs, goblins and dark elves. That is yikes. That is screwed up and a whole other can of worms. Be aware of that.

[@ChaseDaOrk3767]

I think you make some good points there

[@x5132]

I get you. The rulebooks usually describe how the races/species have different stats relating to fighting, and just a brief paragraph on how to roleplay them, and even that many players just ignore. So every race ends up being just humans with funny ears, horns or fur.

[@ra1nyran]

it sounds like you have less of a problem with fantasy races as a concept, and rather the general undetailed unserious implementation of them. there are many races in sci-fi and fantasy that have cultures that only creatures with their features could possibly have, but there's so much to read to understand that that it is fundamentally not going to become too popular or mainstream.

[@TrillTheDM]

That's exactly it. I also dislike when DMs go too far in the other direction and craft something that is impossible to play but then still allows people to play them. It's always incredibly jarring to me when the DM plays these creatures well (because they've put in a load of work crafting them) only for a player to basically be like a normal person.

[@zachhanks4399]

Great stuff. On point. I lean away from your POV on the issue of “stereotypes,” however (as distinct from caricature). RPGs aren’t novels, nor epic TV series or film franchises where layered characters are written by master writers and embodied by veteran actors. A Stereotype dwarf PC who reveres ale like holy water, has a consistent enough Scottish brogue, a gruff demeanor, a passion for underground architecture and veins of gold and mithral isn’t insufficient- it’s fantastic. Players come to fantasy not to subvert the tropes, but - to use your word - to be *immersed* in them and embody them. “Originality” is overrated, and often misses the mark and muddies the unity of genre. That said…I hear you regarding immersion., and at my own tables, I strongly urge (and sometimes demand) that players only play fantasy races that they physically resemble IRL. Had a 4’11” bald bearded actor with a round belly, a swagger, and could do a Scottish accent at my table and it was magnificent. The players don’t see what you imagine, nor what you describe, no matter how hard they “flex their imaginations” - they see what lands on their IRL retinas. It works, IME. And, to your points, this dwarf character had much more to him than just the tropes - he also had history and layers and depth, but the *tropes* and *stereotype* supported immersion for all, and did not steer us toward caricature.

[@callmev3531]

Players come to these stories simply to have an adventure however they see fit, regardless of tropes. Everyone has their own way to play, their own story to tell. For those who want to immerse themselves in words reminiscent of classic fantasy stories, that's their right, and if they want to make stories that either subvert or expand upon those classic tropes, that is something that should also be encouraged. Neither side should be seen as superior to the other, but simply one saying or emphasizing something the other doesn't. As long as there is depth, nuance and enjoyment, there isn't a problem.

[@krinkrin5982]

Tropes and stereotypes are an essential starting point for characterization. Without them we wouldn't have an idea how we should act or what is important in a particular race/species culture. It's thanks to them that we can establish a character and then expand upon them. Otherwise, we would default to playing a human with funny ears. I have a gnome character right now that I play as the stereotypical quirky inventor. I overanalyze things, go on short rants that veer off in weird directions, and generally use stream of consciousness to portray the way she thinks. Is that all she is? Of course not. She has changed significantly over the course of the game. But it gives her grounding and a springboard. Without the stereotype, I wouldn't have this foundation, and she wouldn't be nearly as fun or distinct. I've read multiple comics with non-human characters, and while some go into extensive detail about how the physiology of a different species or race influences them, others mostly ignore it and just put in occasional references, or none at all. I prefer the first kind, but I do not begrudge the ones that are not interested in that level of detail.

[@colelarson4443]

Why did you place a laugh track when you mentioned VTM?

[@TrillTheDM]

LMAO I like VTM, just a bit of banter.

[@mikeisnottoast]

Glad someone else feels this. Even in literature and media, my favorite universes have always been ones where non human races were rare and strange. There's something about having a bunch of other creatures that are basically just culturally different humans that never feels as effective and poignant as just having different cultures of humans.

[@hyperblaziken6572]

This video reminded me about how i handled races in my fantasy setting In my setting there are humans and monsters, however, every human is born with the magical genes of a type of monster So for example, elves in my world are humans with the magical genes of fairies

[@crassiewassie8354]

I think if you look at a story you’ll see that almost every detail is relevant. Everything serves to drive a narative. The problem with races being basically human but pointy ears and a long life is that it usually doesn’t serve a purpose. Also there’s the unintended purpose it can take on in the absence of purpose. Like if elves are a masterrace due to their long lives. It’s also kind of harmful to engage in race science like that. To say there’s an innate difference unless there’s a purpose for that being that way in the story. Like vampires can be used to serve so many different stories. An elve’s purpose in a lot of modern stories is kinda just. They’re there because they’re usually in fantasy

[@phattadontungtrongsit4137]

Now I want to write a fantasy world where every race is just a mutation or adaptation of humans

[@1YCARADOFACAO]

Shadowrun. You welcome

[@rethall2308]

I agree but only in part: In my homebrew setting and system there are human "subspecies" influences or sometimes intermixing with other species which *aren't* playable (such as giants, or dragons, or angels) but ultimately all players have that human foundation in them. This also allows those other species to be much more alien even if I do keep stuff like lifespans and such recogniseable to be able to relate to them as characters better.

[@darrenleckie7570]

I haven’t played much role-playing games recently (because tropes), nor hold any ttrpg experience, but I don’t think a fantastical race is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. I see your point about elf, dwarf etc, preconceptions. I agree with that, you’re basically taking a prebuild or picking someone out of a character roster, and that’s boring. To really immerse yourself in a character, you need to own them. Consider: Why does this species live in the woods? Because they’re naturally afraid of large open spaces when their ancestors were preyed upon. I’m not a fan of the idea: make everyone human. If I start a story and say, here’s a human, you will immediately connect that person to what you know of humans, with our histories and practices. But what if I introduce them and a Bobs. Now that culture is open, you don’t know what is normal of a Bobs. I can make them largely human but cut the offensive concepts and stigmas. Bobs can be a species where discrimination like racism, sexism, and animal farming don’t exist, where those traits are an alien’s concept. That’s not the same as a human making a conscious or moral choice. I don’t make a moral choice to not read your mind, I don’t read your mind because it’s not a concept I can comprehend. This is a species where these traits don’t Exist. What if I want to play a character with a lot of body fat? If I go human, we imply excessive eating, drinking or laziness. Medical and biological are usually after thoughts. But I don’t want my character to be depicted in that way or considered impossible in an apocalypse setting. So, we make a new species, Bobbs. A species with a naturally high amount of body fat like a seal or hippo. Our Bobbs can still get overweight, but we can’t intrinsically judge them as indulging in excess. It's okay to give a species a recognisable name like elf, troll etc, so long as you draw from the core characteristics of mythology. Elves and trolls have a massive collection of inspiration to draw from, spanning the globe. Just remember, our expectation is really just one rendition. Or a rendition of a rendition. Imagine your friend had a go at painting the Mona Lisa. Now you paint your friend’s painting. Details get lost when you copy from a copy. Here’s a question: Why should your goblin be green? Consider what elements of a species you want that a human is not naturally suited for without technology. Burrowing, gliding, charging? Increased leg strength, lung capacity? With a bit of imagination, a fantasy species can offer incredible storytelling potential. Stories that a human can only achieve with deus ex machina technology and/or magic. :)

[@stochasticagency]

Keep doing what you're doing, and thanks for taking the time to have that conversation with Runeslinger.

[@JediNiyte]

INCREDIBLE video, Trill. You articulated quite well what I've felt for a long time but didn't quite have fleshed out in my head. I honestly think this is why Dark Sun was my favorite D&D setting. From the outset, the non-human races felt TRULY different, almost alien. The authors did a great job of rooting them into the game world physiologically, which made their PSYCHOLOGY truly feel like a thing apart. One thing that helped was the fact that both halflings and thri-kreen would - quite regularly - eat other species, although for somewhat different reasons. The kreen were utilitarian about their food choices, while the halflings found mystical and ecological significance in the act. That right there made "normal' go right out the window. Then you had the dwarven focus, which was a weapons-grade, steroid-buffed hyperfixation that made them almost completely unrelatable. The same went for the elves and the way their physiology created a culture where only the runners survived. Everyone else was left behind to let the desert take them. Those are all oversimplifications, but even little details like that can make a world of difference, if rooted in a race's biology and leading to a mindset so far out of the norm that you wouldn't mistake it for human. Now, getting your players to bring that into role-play at the table? Another story, and one I don't have the answer for.

[@TrillTheDM]

Appreciate it! Dark Sun is a great call out as something that takes the traditional fantasy races but delivers them differently in terms of play. One of my favorite settings as well. Yeah I'm not sure we can ever do anything to make our players BUY INTO Roleplaying. It's one of those things where I feel you're either interested in it or not. The only thing we can do is filter for what we'd like to see at the table.

[@starhalv2427]

So basically... you dislike that nonhuman races are too human when roleplaying them. But the problem with that reasoning, is that all playable D&D races have the same mind as a human- except Kenku. What distinguishes them is pretty much only physical and cultural differences, or different circumstances of life due to some misconception about their life by other people (Aasimars seen as perfect angels despite being very much capable of evil, or tieflings seen as literal satan despite being very capable of good)

[@Dookieman1975]

Some fantasy stories like to go into the weirdness of races (think it was about the elf or a dungeon chef highlighting the otherworldly qualities of elves and how they act) and some like D&D give u an outline and let u get weird with it and run wild. Let u make the personalities and behaviors. Let u be the change u want. And yes, not all do that. And I get that u are bored of the basic versions. I really like it when they are very human or very alien, just that many people just don’t feel like or aren’t creative enough to make a long af character deep dive for their oc or pc races to differentiate them from the rest or make them more interesting. Especially when a DM has to read all that or may not have a setting that allows for that character to fit in. For me, the standard is boring after a while unless ur adding a twist or fun and charming attribute and characteristic and then that can get old and you’d want to see the traditional takes again. I and evidently others, even KZbinrs like to add a twist or add more to the races. Like u can take aspects from the cultures that made or inspired a race. Like the dwarves can be a lil closer to their roots and use intangible objects strung together by magic to create and are obsessed with any arts, just that smithing is what makes the money since humans and other races would want the best quality and the dwarves can trade for food since the inside of mountains or caverns aren’t really the best places to farm. U can make them inventors. U can make some monopolistic on plumbing, magical weapons, or even prosthetics if they love gold so much. They can be like Vikings cuz who’s gonna stop the guys who make the best weapons and the young can be belligerent frat boys and u can take the beard thing further, have them see it as a terrible thing to ever have ur hair cut and love braiding it. With different hairstyles indicating statuses. Like instead of a ring, a couple will have their hairs braided the same exact way. A KZbinr reimagined them and drew them as bug people cuz Norse myth says they used to be maggots, something I’ve wanted to see and brought more attention to. Or u can do what I and evidently others online have. Taking inspiration from animals. Goblins are known to act like gremlins and I thought they were similar to chimps cuz of how impulsive they are, so I drew one inspired by chimps and had mine act like them if they were smart enough to be in their Bronze Age. Hell u can treat fantasy races like animals or like aliens where people know them by certain traits and will be surprised if they don’t stick to them. If u want to alienate them or make them mysterious, u can have the people equally as wary of them have several interpretations of them. Kinda like the many interpretations of faries irl. Like some not agreeing on if elves are like gnomes or more like pretty humans. It’s not like the weirdos in the woods who are super cautious of humans will tell you anything. Slight problem is that not everyone knows about these things and that can make it harder to find sources of inspiration. And I think it is up to u in roleplaying games where u can make that choice to make them more interesting. Up to u to make fiction to inspire others to do something similar. And even then we may get bored of those versions again

[@Houston810]

Here's the thing. You could make the same argument about different races and cultures of humans. And if that's the attitude why play an rpg at all?

[@DarkmourneTheFlayer]

Interesting. I find I at once agree and do not agree. Your assessment is spot-on. We are not dragons, we have no such lived experience, so we cannot, with 100% accuracy, portray a dragon. Yet, I think free will plays a colossal part in how any fantasy race would behave. Humans can rise above their natures: they can make the choice to follow their natural programming or to dismiss it in favor of something greater. That separates them from animals. Any fantasy race with that free will, would, in theory, behave in a similarly human way, being that any member could also rise above its nature to choose something greater. As such, I think it would make it quite immersive to have fantasy races, but not as the cobbled together stereotypes that I think you rightly speak against. It would be immersive to have them behave in human ways because of the aforementioned free will. A character is a person the player invents. If it did not behave like it had free will like a Human but was a race that had free will, it would seem off. It wouldn't read right. That's where I think immersion would truly break. All that said, I did like a lot of the points you made.

[@TrillTheDM]

Yeah I think what I didn't make clear in the video is that I do believe there's a middle point between trope and overly alien where fantasy races can be RP'd in a unique way that doesn't break immersion or is made impossible by being too alien. One of the early videos though so hopefully I'll be better about clarifying the stuff that might cause confusion.

[@cubancavalier3051]

ive found in my experience that races when they would disrupt immersion was because they were a gimmick character. Like i played a one shot that was in a almost entirely human world and we were all humans and half elves and then one person wanted to be a thrikeen (the bug people). it threw the mood and they played into being a bug person and it totally derailed the story because now we were playing "theres a bug person in our human world" and not the actual story we wanted to play

[@Matt_Volk]

I agree wholeheartedly! I have seen both extremes: folk who choose the race for its bonuses only and carry on like a human with pointy ears, and those who lean into the race but play it as a farcical stereotype. Those who actually engage in a thoughtful, consistent embodiment of an alien species have never graced my table... and I know I couldn't do it either. Ha!

[@elowin1691]

In my homebrew setting I have pretty much just cut out the idea of truly non-human characters being playable. There are all manner of fantasy "races" but they are all either part human or changed human. Elves are a pairing of humans and certain fae creatures, not a distinct species in their own right, and half elves are almost entirely human. Ratfolk were created out of humans and rats by a deranged magic user the party encountered in a campaign, and now a hundred years later they're a widespread phenomenon, and different animal/human hybrids occasionally appear. The only real exception is goblins, because one of my player is a pale overgrown goblin IRL.

[@HaughtyToast]

This especially drives me nuts with races that have specifically described alien minds like orcs, lizardfolk, and kenu. Nobody played them right and then they said they were all either annoying or offensive because of these traits despite nobody ever actually playing them like that. Even if I wanted to play an aarakocra who can't comprehend the concept of livestock and would consider the entire party worth crippling and dumping in the middle of the desert if they even told a single lie, as they are described, it would be considered disruptive and inconducive to "proper team play" as if that's all that ever matters when it comes to roleplay. Playing non-human characters isn't as fun as it should be because you often feel pressured by the table to act human. People generally aren't willing to adapt to anything that they aren't used to. It doesn't matter how much you are immersed if no one wants to be immersed with you.

[@jacugo]

I agree, this video reflects my view of fantasy races quite literally. The same is with science fiction with races being monocultural. The level of dedication needed to properly represent them is it not done by everyone and it is hardly appreciated. The truth is that in the Roleplaying context people just want to fake a Scottish accent and call it a day. I personally stopped expecting serious Roleplaying, and in my worlds "fantasy" races are more like mutated humans. It satisfies the player's need for aesthetical differences, while keeping the core of the characters close to human. I the end I satisfy my curiosity for deeper alien interpretations with anime. They either go ham highlighting the absurdity of shallow interpretations like konosuba, or the deep exploration of the alien nature, like in frieren

[@TrillTheDM]

@@jacugo I wouldn't put it all on the players personally. I think there's also quite a lack of creativity from DMs in the hobby these days. Serious games are also not for everybody which is also fine. A lot of people just wanna have fun and kick back with their friends. Same hobby just different preferences.

[@jacugo]

@@TrillTheDM yeah like sports. There are people that want to reach the highest potential while others want a good workout with their friends. They are both valid ways to use the sport it is just that in Roleplaying. That clear division is blurred if not, almost impossible to visualize.

[@HeribertoEstolano]

When It comes to fantasy races in worldbuilding all I can think of Is the massive GAP between: pick any videogame, anime, book series, whatever that features a world with multiple races; and then compare it to the A Song of Ice and Fire Series. The Factions of George R.R. Martin's Books are all humans and they feel completely diferent from each other with their own cultures, manerism, language expressions - not just the house mottos, EXPRESSIONS that surpasses any of your Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, Forgotten Realms or whataver (Lord of The Rings Doesn't count, LotR Good). Giving each fantasy race a BreastMilk flavor won't make them any more unique and well tought than what Martin put to diferenciate to folks in westeros. One of my favorite TTRPG worlds of all time does exaclty that: Coriolis the Third Horizon. It's a human-centric setting with very diferent flavourfull factions. I proposed to run it for my players and they were expecting a Mass Effect-ey or Guardians of the Galaxy experience and they came out of the session completely amazed by Corilis world and all It's diferent cultures.

[@dannycurtis3575]

If the problem is immersion, and hear me out on this, you can READ the lore of the races. I can't speak for every table top RPG, but games like Shadow Run and especially D&D have material to read to you can immerse yourself in the world and character. The point of a ROLE PLAYING GAME is to play a character that is not you and enjoy a fantastical world that is not our own.

[@TrillTheDM]

@@dannycurtis3575 Yes, players can do this. Even DMs can do this. The problem imo is that they mostly don't.

[@dannycurtis3575]

@@TrillTheDM So "Throw the baby out with the bath water" than? In your video your making the broad sweeping generalization that Fantasy Races are pointless as they are just humans with some miner exaggerated characteristics or to extremely dissimilar from humans to accurately portray by a player because their culture is to foreign. Their core difference is stat changes and unique abilities to differentiate them rather than the lore and physical aesthetic that is provided in games like D&D. It's the "White people can't enjoy Boondocks because they are not Black" argument, or more accurately "Your not that X, so you can't fully comprehend what it is like to be X". The main thing that makes any media Immersive is the ability to relate to the characters personality and struggles through the conflicts of the story. Any player, new or old, is going to use generalities and surface layer distinctions of a race when they play. New players will rely on them more so as they haven't played a TTRPG before. They need a bit of a crutch to get into character and learn how they affect the world around them vs. someone who has been playing for the past 10 years. The best way to get someone new into character, is to have someone go through the basics and get them to do the reading. In my experience, the only people who don't do the reading are people who are not going to stick around for the long run or not get fully invested into the story. If it's a completely original setting, than it is on the GM to ensure all players are well informed going into the game. DEPTH comes from a players backstory & actions in the world, not just the color of their skin or if they have horns or not. What makes up a Dwarfs back story is likely to be different from a Humans because they are culturally and society different, even if your not playing D&D. If everyone is playing an Elf aloof and indifferent to the world at your table, than there is a problem at the table, because each Race comes from it's own society with connecting cultures and in every society there are diverse distinctions amongst it's people. A Human can still empathize with an a Dwarf who lost their family to a Dragon attack, because fundamentally everyone is still getting the human experience if the GM has a well thought out campaign.

[@ObatongoSensei]

I think you are fundamentally right. But in modern games most fantasy races are actually built as humans with some perks, instead of being really different even on a structural and mechanical way. And most of the times cultural differences are just hinted at, instead of being fully described. Of course, to really try some real non-human roleplay you need players that are really into actual roleplay, instead of just some gamist dungeon crawling or wargaming. Having racial or cultural differences is futile with such uninterested players.

[@hoi-polloi1863]

Interesting vid, thanks! I do get this idea that you're asking too much of the players though... at the end of the day, the game isn't about deep evolutionary psychology meditations; that's more the task of a novel. In D&D the players want something *exotic* to their own experience. They want to be a barbarian, or a crusading warrior-saint. Or... an elf. Every player is going to have a different level of immersion into his character, and channel the differences to a greater or lesser extent. It seems wrong to tell them not to, just because they aren't great at it. In my own experience, non-human races are played *mostly* as reskinned humans, but every so often a player surprises you. Maybe the elf is aghast that a precious *child* is suffering or in poverty. Maybe the dwarf is aghast at the notion of people *giving* presents with no exchange of value. These little moments add a lot to the game, sez I. Side-note... you should do a video diving deeper into what elf/dwarf/turtle psychology might be like. I betcha there *will* be a lot of commonality with humans in the end. Emotions like fear, jealousy, and anger are survival traits after all. Above all I want to see a conversation about child-rearing between an elf, a lizard person, and an orc. They'll probably all leave the discussion feeling like the other two are creepy and evil.

[@TrillTheDM]

@@hoi-polloi1863 Appreciate the comment. It may be the case that I'm asking too much from other players but at the same time the video is speaking in the context of a serious character immersive campaign so it is a specific setting where one would expect more. In a normal game setting, everybody takes it at their own pace and that's perfectly fine, I enjoy those games as well it's just a different kind of enjoyment.

[@ironclad4451]

At the end of this conversation it feels as if this comes down to how you personally interpret sentience or sapience (I always confuse these two words, So bear with me) I think the fact that a well fleshed out fantasy or sci-fi species feels "human" is good. Human, is our only look at sentience, we stand alone. Every intelligent species therefore must anchor itself in what we can understandably interpret as "intelligent" and by extension "human". Modern cultural ideas have pulled fantasy and sci-fi species even further in this direction with the pressure to insist that no species can be "evil" by default, and the push to move away from more sensitive issues in our fiction. This means serious differences in psychological condition, and world view become even more difficult to use and enjoy without some looney on reddit insisting you're "pro-slavery" or something. The difference is that you've looked at the stereotypes of these species as "surface level" at least based on what you say in this video and chosen to only look at them ON a surface level. A lot of casual world building does this too, but it doesn't have to. The WHY of a surface level trait can be deeply linked to a cultural identity, a shared experience of the species, or some unique challenge or advantage of their physiology. This would take that surface level trait, and deepen its reason for being. It can be a telltale preview of the more complex importance of something. I do agree that the vast majority of fantasy races end up: Greek humans, but they look like turtles... or Vampires, but they're vikings... and build japanese style ricepaper and wood castles. which bothers me to no end. I think THIS worldbuilding is what primarily has led you to your current outlook. The species don't have their own culture, they're just clearly derived from a few obvious real world cultures. Fantasy authors and creatives of the past, no matter how outlandish invented their own cultures, they didn't just cut and paste our cultures onto a new model. I am creating a world called shackle's of Aer'Haemmer, and while many of the original concepts start out with a cutlural analog in our history, time and effort is put in to determine how the culture would change and grow based on the worlds history and the gods, monsters, magic and other influences present in the world. Often people forget that our societal identities are an outcome of our history, and that placing those things in another world who's history bears no similarities is just jarring. It is not a failing of fantasy species as a concept, nor in my opinion a limitation of human thought, but rather a failing on the part of worldbuilders to take the time to truly flesh out and create believable reasons to justify unique traits, to create unique views, to sit and ponder how the different factors might shape a species world view and culture, AND a failing on the part of consumer/players, who skip dialogue, skip cutscenes, don't know the difference between lose and loose, and can't pay attention long enough to watch a tik-tok reel. Why would anyone take the time to create real art? real history? real differences? when the consumers are so vapid and brain fried they'll never engage with it? *also, your video "embrace the strange" was excellent, and I have subscribed.

[@TrillTheDM]

Yeah you're mostly correct. I'm not saying fantasy races are bad by any means, I'm merely talking about when they break me out of immersion. When they're lazily handled & copy paste human culture + costume or when they're so overly detailed that it's impossible for anybody to portray because from my subjective experience that's the vast majority of what I've run into.

[@gaoth88]

I watch this and look at my own made system where you can cross-mix elves, dwarves, demons, beast-kin and undeath in a single character. ... Perfection...

[@blkgardner]

Fantasy races with an alien mindset can work, BUT most of the roleplaying will revolve around the character's alien mindset.

[@aronroberts5813]

I love this topic, and I love the way you talk about it in this video-it’s totally something I’ve grappled with myself. Honestly, as I’ve thought about it on my own, I’m currently of the mind that it is indeed truly impossible to “embody” anything that is intended to be non-human. As human beings we’re limited to a human perspective by necessity, and I don’t really know of a way to get around that. But I also believe in the power of imagination, and that each individual is capable of stretching imagination to a certain depth that makes their creations truly unique. When it comes to fantasy and my love for the genre, I tend to lean on the mythological / metaphysical symbolism that “alien” races describe. So although we can’t escape the human, by considering the alien perspective, we can understand humanity in new, creative ways. Love your videos!! 😊

[@Bardicaggravation]

This is great. I'm so glad this video was made. It's always been a diifficult opinion and concept for me to convey to others without being labeled a "hater". You worded it perfectly.

[@TrillTheDM]

@@Bardicaggravation LMAO well there's no shortage of it in the comments. Appreciate it though, I figured it was the kinda topic where you either got it or didn't. Thankfully it seems like there's a lot out there that do get it.

[@Bardicaggravation]

@@TrillTheDM Yes, and that also gave me hope - to see that many people feel this way.

[@Viyann91]

Your dilemma is highly relatable. I feel the same way about fantasy races and even though I deeply admire the Lord of the Rings, I lament it's overall effect on the fantasy genre as a whole. I am simply tired of the aloof bow-wielding elves, the greedy and stout dwarfes and many of the other conventionalized elements. Whenever a videogame or roleplaying game allowed me to pick my character race, I used to always pick the most exotic or monstrous one. To me, human characters were always boring. These days however, it is the opposite. I always pick human, because I am one. To me, there is no race that is more exciting than humans, because we have the potential to be anything. Thank you for this video.

[@Jessymandias]

I agree with you a lot. But I have found it is more fun to play an 'all dwarf" game, or "all elf" game than a mixed group. then you can really explore that demi human otherness as a team.

[@exituscaeli959]

I think, despite your arguable points mentioned here, that you are skating over a lot of nuance and references. There are definitely a lot of throwaway memes in fantasy RPG but mythology can serve as a very useful tool to facilitate non-human portrayal. Mythology has literally developed over eons in an effort for humans to view human life in a different way and to try to see the understand how a being with such a view might relate to humans. It’s a potential lever for players to use to portray their own characters, it isn’t inherently disruptive to the experience had in the game. Setting a high standard for these portrayals may inhibit non-human role play but I, honestly, see this as a somewhat elitist view. In early DnD (Chainmail, etc), didn’t allow players to play “Elves” due to many things you cite here (and the advantage in play they would consequently have), but ”half elves” were introduced as a bridge to such play (Tolkien also had half elves described in the Silmarillion, and Tolkien was specifically emulated in early DnD due to the life and detail he breathed into his world and non-human characters). If you want a literary, high fantasy reality, you will have to dictate it as the DM to players. If they are “playing wrong”, you have to confront them with your world’s reality as they do so. Modern science fiction does this all the time. It is a real effort but it isn’t impossible. The question is, “Is that what players want?”. “You can’t have elves and dwarves because they’re to hard to play and you will mess them up.” Isn’t an attractive or liberating or even attractive game approach. Scientists struggle to day with the same issues you have here with believably imagining truly different alien life. We always can only work with what we have. The attempt to imagine and present can be as rewarding as actually finding them. We’re creating new mythologies and it’s why we remember our old ones for so long. You might read some of Larry Niven’s novels featuring the Pierson’s Puppeteers or his collaboration with Jerry Pournelle in the “Motey” series (The Mote in God’s Eye and The Gripping Hand) or the outstanding and far too unknown science fiction novel, Embassytown by fantasy writer China Miellville. All of these deal with portraying genuine, “aliens” and are examples perfectly adaptable to RPG world creations. It just takes a lot of work but, more importantly, compromise to allow players to make the effort.

[@TrillTheDM]

Yeah that's fine, I'll take the elitist stance. Fantasy tropes are tired and incredibly immersion breaking when it comes to serious roleplaying games. I'm not talking about "just act in character" I'm talking about truly immersive campaigns where the players are essentially method acting. The tropes are fine when it comes to casual normal games, I am talking about a specific type of game that I'd say the majority of hobbyists do not ever engage with. The mythology argument is interesting and I don't necessarily disagree with you there. Obviously all of these things were created by humans and are products of the human mind with human limitations. However even within mythology there are a ton of gaps to fill before you get to a roleplaying table. The issue I have is that modern fantasy has filled those gaps with things that are to me inconsistent with human experience or perspective. I think there is a large gap between tired tropes and completely alien though and we can work on that part to create more fulfilling experiences but as of now I have yet to see it within tabletop gaming and I'm not sure many players want to do that work in the first place. A large part of the video if you read between the lines is a critique against the modern tropes. How many DMs these days are lazy and essentially portray other species as humans from a different culture. I think we're ready to go past that. I agree it takes a lot of work, I don't necessarily agree that it's on the DM. I think if you have taken the time and effort to truly try and create something that is completely unique that is divorced from modern fantasy tropes then you shouldn't have to compromise. The player should put in the work and if they can't or don't want to, you are perfectly fine with disallowing. Either way even if we disagree, I appreciate your comment and thoughts!

[@krinkrin5982]

@@TrillTheDM Method acting, as you describe it, is incredibly difficult to portray for non-human species, because of the naturally different physiology that they would have. This is its natural limitation. You can't play a bear with method acting very well, not because humans don't know how bears think, but because humans are not quadrupedal killing machines. With different biology you have an incredible number of things that you wouldn't even think of, and if you are made aware of, would probably find difficult to remember and apply all of the time. Players have enough problems remembering what equipment they are carrying. I don't expect them to remember every detail of Kenku biology (never mind most of it isn't ever referenced in the books either, so how would they even become aware of it) and try to apply them all at once to how they act.

[@jamess3395]

I pose to you this: Arsonist A. Murderer is a level 3 elf who wields a war scythe by the name "possibly truly unconquistadorable" (name courtesy of magic sword generator from whose measure) Of course this is what happens when you play a solo campaign

[@RoninCatholic]

I tend to be annoyed by their _mechanical_ designs from a gamist perspective. When you only have a trio of human-elf-dwarf, it's easy and intuitive to make the elf and dwarf opposites; dwarf with high strength/toughness and low agility/charisma, elf the exact inverse. But then both are given longer lives than humans. Then a fourth race is tossed in, shorter than the dwarf, skinny as the elf, agile and not tough, and _also_ longer lived. Rarely do you get a balancing race for the opposite end of this who is larger than the elf and human, and built for power rather than finesse; if you're lucky, a dragon-man or a half-orc might be technically available. And almost nobody wants to make short-lived seasonal pixies who flitter about gaily and then fade nor beastmen whose lives are as short and brutal as the animals they resemble, or closer to that than to a human span; dead at 40 instead of dead at 80. Basically, I want _symmetry_ in how my not-quite-humans differ from humans, not _all of them_ differ in the same ways. The fewer races you have, the better, both mechanically and in terms of storytelling and immersion. Four is probably the sweet spot for what should be person-like enough to be playable, with numerous monsters (goblins, orcs, demons, undead) that resemble a person in tool usage but due to evil or mental limitations really wouldn't fit in with the crusade of the good guys. And by sharply limiting yourself as a worldbuilder in terms of what races you will even allow, you get more interesting mixes; rather than human/elf/dwarf you might wind up with human/wolfman/brownie or human/centaur/faun or human/turtleman/bunnyman or human/ogre/gnome or human/elf/troll. You can also define human characteristics as the baseline, then remove humans as an option entirely. Most people would wind up just gravitating to the one that looks the most human and treat it exactly like a human with no changes, though. A fantasy world full of talking foxes, wolves, cats, rats, hedgehogs, and weasels is completely relatable and totally possible to take seriously as a roleplayer; more so if the players actually know anything of the biology and ecology of the animals they choose _or_ are well-versed in older folktales of how sapient versions of these creatures "should" act. Either approach or a mix of the two, and intentional subversions if done carefully (our culture has subversion poisoning because people tend to think it's more "creative" to intentionally do something mismatching even if they don't have a rhyme or reason for it, different for the sake of different).

[@jpickens189]

Personally, I think it is less productive to tell people that they shouldn't do something because you have a bunch of reasons it could be bad, and more productive to discuss the ways that people who do want to do this sort of thing can do it better. Personally, I think the thing that makes a non-human character good is basically the same as what makes a human character good: personality and motivation. Finding ways to conceptualize how their experiences as their particular type of non-human race might have shaped those traits is work that can be done to enhance that foundation, but ultimately, even if people don't do that work and just chose their race for aesthetic reasons, those basics will get you further than 95% of players. To be fair, though, I feel like the bigger issue is that people get caught up on enjoyment of the aesthetics, and forget to do that part. Edit: Also, as an admission, I don't think I have ever been in or seen a campaign that I would consider "immersive," though I have experienced some that eventually convinced me to take their stakes fairly seriously, mostly by contrasting those moments with others that are significantly less serious.

[@atticusleeds3957]

I think a lot of the problem is that people tend to play nonhuman races because they look or feel cool, or are just straight-up better than humans in every way, not because they want to genuinely explore the mentality of a non-human or semi-human creature. And I think there is something to be gained by doing this. Not all meaningful stories have to focus on the human experience as we know it, or the human experience can even be explored by way of subtraction: attempting to explore what is NOT human can help us know what IS. I think, in a broader sense, the intellectually exploratory nature of roleplay is often lost in favor of wanting to be a sexy badass self-insert. And if that's how you get your jollies, go ahead, but I suspect the former is rarer these days, and that's a shame.

[@Matt_Volk]

Furthermore, those options usually go unmissed when not presented as a drop-down menu choice at Char-Gen... I was teaching an after-school club and we used D&D for the first semester's campaign, so we had all but one player choose some exotic fantasy race because it was prompted. Second semester came and we started a new campaign using an OSR system (which did have races but we skipped that bit since it didn't change the mechanics). When I realized two sessions in that they were all human and loving it, I asked if any of them wanted to ret-con that they were a fantasy race. Only one (the youngest player) said they felt any desire to reimagine their character as a tiefling. Anecdotal, sure... but it shows that race in a TTRPG doesn't matter that much when it comes to immersion and enjoyment. (And it's the immature who would insist otherwise. LOL!)

[@TrillTheDM]

Cool experience. I agree, I think fantasy races should be offered to provide a unique and distinct experience when roleplaying rather than the same type of experience you would have regardless of your chosen race.

[@NotsilYmerej]

I tend to think of different fantasy races as an allegory for how ancient and medieval peoples saw other ethnic groups. Something similar, but alien to their own group. In that sense, it starts to be understandable that they would just have one culture, because the same ethnic group tends to have the same culture with only minor variance. Besides, the game is about escapism, and some of us want to escape from being human, if only for a few hours

[@Justjustinp]

I think this is a player problem rather than a roleplay game problem. I personally have seen some very interesting takes on dwarves and elves that would not be able to be portrayed by humans. For example, I once played a dwarf artificer who was a cartographer and used his strange dwarf technology to map out the depths of the world. The DM Said that humans and dwarves had only recently come into serious contact. So, my dwarf's king sent him above-ground to create maps of the above-ground areas to better understand the human lands. He joined a party doing so, because he was struggling to use the same equipment and techniques that would work in mines for above-ground mapping. I also delved into the psychology of a dwarf trying to figure out races other than his and played him to intentionally misunderstand jokes and other phrases. It was a blast and my dwarf grew to cherish the party and to develop not just his mapping skills, but his social skills with the outside races.

[@TrillTheDM]

@@Justjustinp It's a player and DM problem. A lot of players and a lot of DMs do not give any consideration to the fantasy races they include in their settings, or very little. Then on the opposite side you have people that do too much and end up with something that can't be accurately portrayed.

[@Pelerin985]

I always felt something was off when I saw stuff about multi-race teams of players. The problem in doing this is it's killing the mysterious, the very fantasy element, by turning those mythical and mystical creatures based on folklore into basically small humans with beard or tall humans with pointy ears.

[@DemigodoftheSea]

I agree with your conclusion somewhat, but not the reasoning. I find that when everyone tries to be quirky and odd and plays a weird fantasy race, things end up feeling like they're just a gimmick, rather than anything deeper than that, whereas human characters have to explore just that much deeper.

[@AmonHa01]

To be quite honest, I can see the arguments is valid. But I think I do not fully agree either. To me, when you play on a fantasy setting where fantastic creatures live, such as elfs or dwarfs exist, I think it is pretty valid to play as those races. Yes, it is hard to RP those creatures since we do not have real life examples, but, it is a nice challenge of roleplay those creatures to the player to see how it can be done. Not to mentioning in a gameplay point in tabletop, it is interesting what kind of abilities and powers those races have to offer. And also the aesthetic choices too. Races who can deviate of human nature in terms of appearance, such as the Conrasu from Pathfinder. And some of them because of their nature of certain elements, can be used as compelling storytelling, like the Tieflings with infernal nature, the racism they suffer. Or the half-elves, who live between the world of human and elf's, but never completely belong to either. Fantastic races may break immersion, but they can be used as incredible tools for storytelling. Of course, not all storytellers might used at fullest potential, but required practice. Besides, between choosing a human or a exotic race, I prefer the exotic race.

[@bleeem]

i mean elfs have a literal culture, so why is it hard to roleplay a culture we have information on? why are people acting like its a foreign concept? if i take a south american culture but swap the humans for squid people it will be the literal same thing, but because its not a human its hard to comphrend how it works? i dont need a real life example of how a pointy ear humanoid is, the texts and the worldbuilding literally will tell you, and culture shapes humans why would it not shape fantasy races? In my setting i've made the trolls have a genetic fascination with creating things, tot he point where seeing the thigns they like being done in a lazy way sets them off, and you can choose what thing you love to that point, you can be a construction worker, a chef, a swordmaker. They are not alien life, they live in the same continent with 3 other races that are humans, weird underground people whose the male cant speak and only speak through telepathy, and whose women are blind and can kill your soul if they take off their blind fold, lizard folk that come in very different shapes and sizes, and orks and Goblins. They are EXTREMELLY different, but they are still from the same planets, and work by the same laws, and if you want to go further, they evolved IN THE SAME WORLD, and we all know evolution has a pattern, thats why all of them have humanoid bodies, but WILDLY different cultures, to the point of being very alien in the way they act, and real life cultures are exactly that way, maybe the gesture of thumbs up means something very dirty in another place and vice versa.

[@AmonHa01]

@bleeem It depends from race to race. Sure there are texts about those races, but (and I give players that fault) if they don't have the patience to read lots of texts about those exotic races. It's sad but it is truth. Sometimes there also the problem in the race be one type of characteristic: The Goloma from Pathfinder 2e is a race of horse people with lots of eyes who act as tough and scaring to other races, but they are in fact afraid of others races because their ancestors tried to steal their eyes. Sure it can lead to a interesting character who is afraid of the world and little by little learns not everyone are eye stealing demons, but it requires a lot of work to a character to work like that. Or some races like Drow who can be extremely racist most of the time, or extremely evil with no space to be noble or heroically. So that's a combination of problems: Sometimes is the player who doesn't have the patience to read walls of text or the race itself be a little difficult to interpret because of cultural traits of said race. And don't let me start at the Kenders. Steal your party things is annoying and if a player decided to play as a Kender just to have a reason in lore to steal their companions, I will personally call their attention.

[@nathanielmarquardt]

I agree with you on this. especially when it comes to fantasy writing. there is a point when a lot of fantasy races in fiction just feel like reskinned humans. whether it be in cultural, behavior, religion, etc. the same can go for aliens in sci-fi as well. really I think people are more in love with the esthetic of a race then the more nuanced aspects of one. like everyone's favorite, the hot, alien chick, with the skin tone of a random primary color.

[@arikaaa69]

To me, the main appeal of playing as fantasy races is that their associated tropes and imagery feel a lot more inspiring when making characters than simply picking a human. Not that humans can't be inspiring if their in-game cultures are already well developed, one of my favourite PCs is a magic obsessed human with no magical abilities, who's a bastard child of a noble house associated with magic and elven culture. A lot about how she acts is influenced by the existing culture she comes from and how she feels alienated from it, which is helped by the culture already being well defined in the setting. But if the setting hasn't already developed these human cultures, then I don't feel like anything about the human really inspires me outside whatever I pick for my lv1 feat. But with the fantasy races, there's something I can latch to even before the game starts. My first character was a half-elf rogue, with the tension inherent in her heritage drawing me in and inspiring her backstory. Even if a human character could explore the same idea of being born of both high and low blood, I like having a visual elements that shows her mixed heritage, like the smaller pointy ears and a face that may look human to elves, or elvish to humans

[@TrillTheDM]

Yeah that's fine. I've said it a few times but I do want to be clear, I don't think fantasy races are bad, the video is just about when they break my personal immersion. The thing that I've found though is that most people don't even give the considerations you're talking about when making characters. Whether that be the players or the GM when crafting these races for their homebrew settings.

[@arikaaa69]

If most people don’t take the time to think about how their character is affected by their race and background beyond surface level traits, then I think that’s really sad. There’s so much potential for characterisation that’s lost when players don’t think about how societies see their race and how they respond to that

[@SilverScribe85]

An all-human role-playing game would get real boring, real fast; mainly because of a lack of diversity. I for one LOVE the additions of different races and species in fantasy media, especially RPGs

[@Suburban8239]

I'm all for having SOME fantasy races, but i feel like playing the less traditional races should be on a case by case basis for the DM. For better or for worse, most RPG settings are human-centric. Having a half demon, a half angel, a half giant, and a goblin running around in the world feels out of place.

[@wabalubadubdub7429]

I watched this ready to argue but I actually really liked the video. I do agree that humanoid races are boring, but I would argue that monstrous races have alot more potential for good role play. I really enjoy role-playing the cultural or psychological differences between my monstrous character and the rest of the party. I enjoy role-playing my character as someone who is completely isolated in every way from the rest of the party. I like playing a character who might be liked, but will never be relatable. No matter how close I get with the rest of the party as comrades, I will always be alone. That is what makes fantasy races special to me!

[@TrillTheDM]

Appreciate you giving it a chance! I don't dislike fantasy races at all. I just heavily dislike them in a certain context and certain executions of them. Just tends to be the case those are the most often way they're portrayed lol.

[@elgatochurro]

You can play a fictional character race as a serious character. "Human but" applies to all fictional races...

[@DuskyPredator]

Fantasy role playing in general is an expansion out of normal personal experience of the player, with most players not having personal experience of fighting with weapons or doing magic. As silly as it sounds, playing a fantasy race can be like that. Have you seen the memes of the sort of people that like playing Tieflings? You do get the edgelords, but I think the biggest meme is about players often being queer. The reason being that queer people can relate to elements of discrimination and not being the norm, and is much easier to make that part of the character rather than discuss that they want the right amount of discrimination in the game without it actually feeling too real. And I think the same can be with a lot of players with different fantasy races. If a DM can play a fantasy race, I am pretty sure a player can do so. Of course some can be lazy, but that isn't fair to put on all players. I myself have gone super deep into learning about fantasy races, and can pull some really interesting traits to make it feel more authentic. A dwarf isn't merely a short guy who drinks a lot and lives underground, a D&D dwarf has immense pride in their work, whatever their occupation they are trying to master that skill with perfection, and on details most won't notice. A dwarf's resistance to poison means their good food and drink is probably poisonous to most outsider, they have very colourful palettes, but have to bland things down for non-dwarves because they don't know what will poison them. And they celebrate among their own kind because they can let loose the finery of themselves and clans. I do think elves are very alien. I did a lot of collation of information a out them and their sub-races, and I do agree some level authenticity is going to require that they cannot connect easilly with normal humanoids. To play them well, I think they have to be donr that they won't just get quickly attached to the little tamogatchi that will die soon. Frieren did do a good job showing an elf being surprised that what was a short time for them was an age for a human. To make sense I can only think elves would either be focused on what looks like the strangest details, as part of obscur hobbies they picked up to make the time they can pay attention feel worthwhile to show something, or they just totally lose track of time and barely pay their attention to details because they're full one is just staring at the hand on the clock that is days instead of seconds. Quite alien and separate from humans. The whole nature thing is like the least interesting part of an elf.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

I've been working on that, and I bet you'd love to play on my game setting.

[@Therealravencry]

I think the issue I've ran into is less characters playing elves and dwarves like humans, as they usually play them in a very tolkein inspired way which I'm fine with, and more of how I've had parties I'm trying to have a serious game with roll up a kobold, a goblin, a tiefling, and lizard folk. Essentially two were races that make up the most common low level enemies they'll face, one is a cannibal, and one is a half demon, with only one player making a dwarf or something semi-normal. And when i told them they won't be well received as they'd likely be seen as enemies based on their races being associated with raiders, cannibals, murderers, bandits, etc. they got kinda upset thinking that wasn't right and they all expected to be treated like humans by medieval peasants who live in constant fear of those races

[@necrosteel5013]

When i think of fantasy races, i think of them like how the adeptus astartes are (warhammer 40k space marines). The way i see them is that they need more than just a different human culture, but one that is extremely isolated within their own society... Think about how different your typical christian is to an ascetic monk who has abandoned all material wealth for the sake pf pursuing god. Or like how philosophers think soo differently to the regular greek people who are bound to their city states. A race isn't just a human with a different skin but a being soo different from the norm as to almost appear alien, but ultimately if studied they can be comprehended.

[@ricaroanimar6695]

Well the challenge is fun , u will legitimately need to build a person from the ground up but its cool as heck.

[@mikedangerdoes]

Fantasy races annoy me when I'm world building. I get too obsesses over details about how they were created, what their distinct culture would look like over thousands of years and way too many other extraneous details that woulo be solved if I just reduced them to "elves are long lived and wise"

[@alexandredesouza3692]

I don't entirely disagree. This is why I think Fantasy Races should be have some roleplay focus, over just mechanical. For instance, Tieflings are supposed to be stealthy, yet monstrous demon children shunned from society, but usually they're some of the most common races and these traits don't actually impact roleplay. What if Tiefling needed to kill people in order to appear more human? This allows for roleplay choices. A more evil character could use this often to disguise themself and stealthily blend into human society. Knowing this, distrust against Tieflings is justifiable, since their very presence invokes the possibility of murder and paranoia. A more virtuous tiefling character would refrain from their power, but ironically retain a more demonic appearance. Therefore, they would be outing themself as a potential and legitimate danger to humans, while also physically demonstrating their virtue to those less ignorant. I'm trying to build a setting where every race has some version of this. An ability that, regardless of culture, affects the way they can interact with other characters and with society.

[@marcar9marcar972]

I play the humans every time because the human condition really speaks to me plus as think they are pretty cool

[@UltraVioletKnight]

and you get an extra feat at level 1

[@zitronenlord603]

7:50 and thats what Shadowrun did

[@joshsavage5239]

Not enough Shadowrun in our ttrpg community.

[@UltraManager]

I'm writing a campaign that have a grain of salt of racism in the lore. Plus many point of view in each races and factions. Writing lore is really hard to get by, because you need like 1 motnh to figure which is the most prominent and which is tossed on the side like nothing. Because lets be real, racism is a very good conflict and not something to take either lightly or ignored from. It add depth and when things are well made for a serious playthrough. Well. It goes great. Plus conflict need depth and a moral dilemma.

[@elijahjohnson2055]

My problem here isn't that you wanna play highly immersive and serious games, it's that you don't seem to understand that there kinds NEEDS to be a element of fictional bullshittery for the world to work as you want it. For example if you're DMing a encounter with a dragon how would you KNOW what that dragon would do in response to what your players do? Are you a dragon? And if you're going to just say "it's my game my dragon" than what's the point of "immersion". Do you want your players to literally live 20 years as a hermit alchemist before they can play said character immersively? It just seems like you're making mountains out of molehills, and if you players are just THAT bad maybe they don't wanna play serious games.

[@TrillTheDM]

You seem to have missed the premise of the video. My problem is somewhat with players but mostly with creators. Creators that don't give their fantasy races any consideration and just run with fantasy races as human + whatever trope stamped on top are bad creators. When fantasy races aren't treated with any kind of respect then why bother with them at all? On the other side of the coin, I don't like creators that give fantasy races extreme consideration and change them into truly alien beings and I don't think they're meant to be played by players at that point. I've bought in to what the DM has told me about these races. They are truly alien and distinct. Okay that's fine, that part doesn't ruin my immersion. What does is when the creator then allows a player to play one who is then not able to live up to the expectations that the DM set which are high because of the fact these are supposed to be truly alien beings. I can buy in and trust that the creator has a way of RPing these things because they've sat with this material and have crafted it themselves over the course of months or however long.

[@elijahjohnson2055]

@@TrillTheDM I say this 100% genuinely: this sounds like a specific personal issue at this point. Like, yeah not everyone is gonna be able to reach a middle ground on either side. Some people are okay with that some aren't, you clearly aren't so it's perfectly fine for you to desire this sort of play. And that is valid. But also to comment on the who "human with stuff tacked on" thing... Well yeah sometimes that's what they simply are. If someone wants to play a human with pointy ears what's so agregeous about that? Is it "pointless" I guess, but so is EVERY chose you make when designing a character. And if a character wants to take up the task of playing a complete alien character it's there fault for not being able to follow through or the DM's for allowing a race to be played they obviously don't wanna actually DM for.

[@TrillTheDM]

@@elijahjohnson2055 Yeah it is a specific issue, that's kinda the point of an opinion piece video lol. A lot of people agree with me and some people flat out disagree. That's fine. That is also a valid approach, but it's not an approach I enjoy. If you don't mind Human + Pointy Ears then that's fine. In the spirit of a serious campaign and setting I have expectations that things should be handled with care. The more things aren't then the more it breaks the immersion in that specific style of campaign for me. I also completely agree it is both on the player and the DM but IMO more so on the DM for allowing what is meant to be a truly alien creature to be played uncharacteristically by a player. It's fine to have restrictions. Even if we disagree, I appreciate the thoughts!

[@elijahjohnson2055]

@@TrillTheDM sorry if I came off sorta dickish. Could of used more careful language. I don't have much else to add here than that. Good day.

[@bharl7226]

@@TrillTheDMI’m super curious as to an example of the happy middle ground for your preferred style of play with non human species!

[@viejosauce]

maybe people just is affraid of making the fantasy races work as an analogy for human cultures, but i’ll keep making my elves have to work through orientalism, my dragonborn part of the deserts and living a religion of law and authority, my tieflings being traded as slaves because of the hell mark, and my drow rejected by their magic and culture as the romani people

[@TrueRomancer04]

Okay but it IS a GAME. We are PLAYING to have FUN. And fun is subjective. Part of the reason I enjoy DnD5e's lack of overarching concrete lore is that elves aren't REQUIRED to live forever, halflings aren't REQUIRED to be barefoot burrowers, humans aren't REQUIRED to be the majority species, etc. As a DM, my homebrew setting can be as cosmopolitan as I want, and this includes a more universal cultural experience across the available species for player characters. Which to me is a major power fantasy, especially in the face of reality being so unequal and unjust across cultural lines.

[@TrillTheDM]

Boring.

[@danckus]

​@TrillTheDM Don't say "boring" just cause someone else has a different interpretation of the behavior & cohabitation of made up species that doesn't fit perfectly into your lame little box. If you can't help being such such an astronomical dork, at least keep it to yourself 🤫

[@yalkn2073]

When writing fantasy races for a game/book/etc. You have 2 options: make fewer but very detailed races, or make a lot of less detailed races. LotR and VtM went for the first option. DnD-esque games for the second option. You can't have 30 hyper-detailed cultures in a single fictional setting, that would take a tremendous amount of work. Besides, DnD is not a good fit for "serious" role-play you are looking for. (unless you heavily homebrew a more limited but focused setting)

[@moapchan1905]

I agree with you when it comes to wacky species like Minotaurs, Centaurs, Goblins, or the like- but I think Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs have been humanized enough to be taken seriously.

[@TrillTheDM]

I don't disagree, my issue is that most people are too lazy to even do that which is the bare minimum imo. If you advertise that you've got a serious homebrew setting for instance, I come in with some pretty high expectations. If it then turns out that your fantasy races are just copy paste human culture + a costume then it's quite jarring for me and I question why you'd have fantasy races at all in that case. There are other people though that go hard line in the opposite direction, to me that is just as bad because they give you something that cannot be portrayed accurately.

[@moapchan1905]

​@@TrillTheDM True originality is nearly impossible, and a lot of these races are just expected of any given fantasy setting- the reality is you are correct, unless you're willing to spend years thinking and fleshing out your fantasy species you will never be able to come up with something that matches the depth of a real culture.

[@madmanvarietyshow9605]

I agree. Fantasy races have sadly become cliché and boring and kind of feed into that (I hate to say it but I don't have a better way to describe it) "special snowflake" syndrome that permeates TTRPG spaces. Everyone wants to be almost like a 13th Warrior, everyone wants to be special, but in the end no one is special. And everyone plays them like "humans, but" anyway. Probably my favorite campaign I ran was an Innistrad campaign. Everyone is a human and it really enhanced the story telling and the horror of the setting.

[@gasmonkey1000]

I think its why ya mentioned non-human races dont work for you that me and several others like playing non-human characters. How would a half-orc act? Why would an orc be so violent and seek fights? Why would dwarves be so uptight and good in a fight? Why are elves always getting bent over a barrel? Experimentation is the name of the game

[@SizzleCorndog]

The other thing that always annoyed me was people running political or “realistic” campaigns with highly cosmopolitan societies but somehow make humans run everything. If anything elves should be running things because when you have 800 years to plan how to become ruler, you’ll probably pull it off, or you’d seize power before it can be democratized

[@nicodemous52]

On a more serious note. I'd mainly disagree because it's the stories and characters that truly immerse us in the experience. Not the characterizations per se. It's like people that say "I don't feel represented" . I can only speak for myself, but I've never had a problem getting into a character, admiring them or recognizing myself in them just because of the race or sexuality. This seems to be a flavor of that.

[@brettpalmer1770]

I think there are "races" that do work well because they are tenicaly human. Any half race, half orc or half elf, tieflings are human as well. Half races can grow up in the wide variety of human cultures and be very human but also deal with the fact the have a mixed ancestry that isn't from where they grew up and that can be clear just by looking at them. Tieflings are a result of an ancestor make a deal with a devil, this corrupting action is made visible in a decent and affects to some degree there perception of reality but still human with all the culture and complexities that come with it.

[@sanddanglotka]

If I'm not having pointy ears I cannot enter a fantasy game :))) And speaking of vampires and elves, what do you make of vampire elves like my boy Astarion? ❤❤❤ Great piece!!!

[@jsmoothd654]

I don’t disagree with your opinion entirely, but I think it comes down to how your players engage with your lore. Most of my players will look at my fantasy race and instead of just making a stereotype based on their race, they make a character that is exceptional. I’ve always found that letting players innovate can be both fun and a good way to help add to your lore. That’s just my opinion.

[@jamesgordley5000]

What if there were rules that applied to the condition of being an elf/dwarf/whatever, which by taking into account, encouraged you to react along those lines? They would have to represent a very deep difference in life condition.

[@TrillTheDM]

That's an approach but I personally try to stay away from rules that force roleplay. I'd rather just have an invested player that's aware of the distinct nature of the races I've crafted that does their best to portray them appropriately.

[@PolicyofIllusion]

Holy moly, the level of hand-wringing and ego-prickling in the comments from people who're probably all basically just thinking to themselves "b-but when I play MY freakshit I AM roleplaying! You don't get it, evil YT content creator!" 5e and PF2 are very good filters to keep such players in their stat-stickery and purely aesthetically driven racial kitchen-sink games. You're not the first person I've seen making a vid talking about this, but these are the first comments I've seen where the notion got so much pushback.

[@acid0philus]

You mentioned new vampires... What about the ancient and jaded ones? They, too, become VERY tropish and capable of causing the same sort of ruin you paint other species with in other settings. I remember hearing stories of a vampiric viscount who entertained and had human slaves brought in, chained in groups of six for people to feed on, calling them six packs... In the end, Fantasy is about escaping our world to be entertained by a shared imagining. Like playing cops n robbers or cowboys n indians as children. I do not believe in binary worlds where all things are one or the other. We don't live in monochrome. We live in HD. Our escapisms are much the same.

[@TrillTheDM]

To be fair I also have this issue with people attempting to portray ancient vampires. The reason I brought up V:TR and V:TM is because the majority of the time people tend to play new vampires. I don't have any disagreements with your statements on fantasy and escapism. I'm strictly speaking about the part of the hobby that does these things badly. Where people don't roleplay well and where creators and DMs rely on tired tropes to portray these things that imo do deserve more consideration. Unfortunately this is a very large part of the hobby, obviously it doesn't apply to EVERYTHING.

[@monkeibusiness]

Ah, yes: Wittgenstein's Fantasy Race. The comments under this video are making me sad.