Why Fighting Games Feel Weird To Normal People

[@beauoddball1435]

I feel like the lack of visual harmony is sort of part of the deal that comes with fighting games along with option selects. Knowing which move is plus on block and which on is a feint. This video put things in perspective for me thank you.

[@jiikae]

1000% I do think the vagueness of interactions is almost inherent to fighting games. Partly because characters have to PHYSICALLY interact with each other in a way that kind of requires some level of ambiguity Shooters don’t have to account for that as much because the interactions are more homogenous (players mainly just shooting at each other vs. several different characters kicking, punching, throwing, etc each other)

[@AvidanSmith]

Super dope vid bro

[@jiikae]

Thank you man!!

[@ReanXAlisa]

As one of the normies myself, that entire section on Blocking and Visual Harmony has definitely been one my biggest learning curves when it comes to playing a fighting game just casually. I hadn’t even thought about the lack of visual feedback from holding back compared to pushing a button but it makes so much more sense now. I’m very much used to block being an input that I can clearly see with things like Royal Guard and so on. Every single player action game always gives you that clear visual clarity on what an incoming attack is compared to the Ciel example. Now I’m not saying that I want it changed because I know it’s a steep learning curve and I’ve always been honest in the fact that I don’t think I have an interest in playing fighting games in the same vein as something like DMC. I do hope this becomes a more brought up talking point in the future because it’s often that the basics are a hard thing to grasp and that rarely gets brought up in the larger picture.

[@jiikae]

Definitely. There is a lot of visual conflict when it comes to inputs and what you see happening on screen when it comes to fighting games, it is actually very jarring at first. I think the “easyness” of some of these things is why they aren’t talked about as much. But what I hope people can realize is that certain things can be easy while also being weird/jarring.

[@ReanXAlisa]

@ yeah it definitely always seems like when something is called easy, it’s immediately dismissed as an issue. I’m not sure why that is but it’s come up in all sorts of game conversations, especially when people avoid talking about a learning curve of any game’s language.

[@alek_7823]

The block button is one of those super obvious ones in hindsight. I’ve had a friend who just didn’t understand why it was that way when he played DB fighterz/tekken for the first time. It’s like most gamers not understanding how challenging dual analog controls are for people who don’t play games. Great vid!

[@jiikae]

Thank you! And yeah the blocking thing I feel gets overlooked in these conversations because of a lot of “bigger” issues (motion inputs, combos) But I feel like the hold back to block input is actually one of the most fundamental awkward aspects of traditional fighters that people in the FGC become “blind” to once we get used to it

[@667link5]

I love how you break things down so simply + beautiful

[@jiikae]

Thank you so much!!!

[@ultm8ninja]

Great topic, great video. Loved the points and examples made, I feel like you can go even deeper with the analysis.

[@jiikae]

Appreciate you! And yes there's definitely even more aspects of this topic that can be discussed.

[@UncleBeastyYT]

There also nothing like analog moves in games outside of fighting games. I've practised and practised but not matter what I do pulling off a move with the analog in an actual fight has never felt natural. Maybe people like me take the instructions too literally but the move says: down, diagonal down right, right. I try and do it and it feels so unreliable. And that's the simplest example. Then they'll ask you to do a move by pulling the analog stick back. So: right, diagonal down right, down, diagonal down left, left. But wait I thought left was block and what if I do it to slowly and my character moves back and I whiff the move. Fighting game fans can tell me that won't happen all they want it just doesn't feel good. I remember playing Ken in SF6 and I played Ken because he had three different moves that functioned as a dash to close distance. His regular dash (right right) a dash where he turned green that I needed to press two buttons to do and would only work half the time; and a dash where his feet left behind sparks. At one point I just said fuck it and bounded the spark dash to LT. Fighting game fans told me that was bad and the green dash was better. I didn't give a fuck because I knew that any time I hit LT Ken was gonna dash and close the distance. Which was more reliable than awkwardly flicking my stick and praying to God the controller understood I wanted to do a move and not crouch or hitting two buttons at the same time but I hit the first button one millisecond sooner than the other button so it didn't count.

[@jiikae]

Funny enough the only fighters that seem to have tried to address the analog stick at all are platform fighters like Smash. It is interesting how more traditional fighters haven’t experimented much with optimizing for the analog stick. And I completely understand what you mean when you say you’re looking at the instructions literally. It definitely is not intuitive to grasp how executing certain things is supposed to FEEL. Because like you said, to a regular person, some of these inputs conflict with each other.

[@Gordoniankid]

Fighting games definitely feel more foreign compared to other genres. With the drastically different ways fighting games control depending on the game. I'm not good at fighting games, so here's some stuff I can recall: 1. One of my friends didn't know how to block when playing Dragon Ball FighterZ, Something I assumed would be common knowledge, but he was used to fighting games with a dedicated Block Button like Mortal Kombat. 2. I've seen a streamer not like that in the Super Smash Bros games, they they have to double tap to run or turn the character around to face the opponent. They felt it was unnatural for a character to not be facing the opponent automatically. 3. I didn't know how to do Super Inputs in fighting games for a long time (not helped that fighting games will list the SAME INPUT differently depending on the game. Example: Marvel vs Capcom will show Punch or Kick icons, but Blazblue will show A,B,C,D referring to Light, Medium, Heavy and Drive buttons. And fighting game fans have their OWN system of describing inputs). Blazblue Calamity Trigger let the player use the Right Stick for Super inputs, but only for that entry. Power Rangers Battle for the Grid had a simple system for doing Specials UNLESS you pick Ryu or Chun Li who play like Street Fighter. 4. You mentioned visual confusion on attack animations. In Blazblue, Makoto Nanaya has a move with the same start up animation, but can end in 4 different ways depending on the next input. And there's no way for opponent to tell the difference until the follow up comes out. Platinum the Trinity use a Rock Paper Scissors animation for their Light attack, but each one has a different hitbox AND follows the RULES OF Rock Paper Scissors in a Mirror Match instead of just being two Lights clashing. 5. You also have fighting game updates that can alter character move sets too. Making combos someone learned no longer useable for example. Look at Dragon Ball FighterZ that had a final update that broke it's fanbase. 6. Popular Fighting games with normal people that aren't considered "real fighting games" by the community. Something like Dragon Ball Z Budokai 3, a beloved fighting game, but FGC would say DBZ didn't have a "real fighting game" until FighterZ (despite Super Dragon Ball Z on the PS2, but I digress). Or how for years Super Smash Bros wasn't considered a "real fighting game" because it didn't play the same as other popular fighting games. Look at Dragon Ball Sparking Zero, a casual fighting game with huge spectacle for Normal People. But FGC want it to be competitive and demand nerfs across the board, with people thinking "the game is dead" because it's more for Local fun than Online Matches. 7. Fighting games with single player content that seems to be encouraged by the FGC since it attracts normal people, but also despised at the same time. Like how Street Fighter 6 introduced the Avatar, but people get pissed if DLC costumes are made for the Avatar and not one of the roster characters. Or how Tekken 8 pissed normal people off by bringing back Heihachi, but FGC people said that the story "doesn't matter", only the character's functions (Functions vs Functions was TRUE) and people who only play that or other Single Player modes aren't "real fans" of the game since they don't play Online Matches. I don't play Online Matches, yet I still buy DLC characters but apparently I don't count.

[@Gordoniankid]

8. I forgot the most important one. The age old question of "Why don't normal people play fighting games online?" Meanwhile Justin Wong was beating people down in Marvel vs Capcom 2 SO BAD that they were refunding the game. People laughed at this despite not realizing YOU ARE LITERALLY SCARY PEOPLE OFF FROM YOUR GENRE! That isn't funny, that's the problem FGC people keep complaining about BEING CREATED BY THEM!

[@jiikae]

These are some great examples. I didn’t even consider how turning around in Smash can feel unnatural. Generally speaking though, I think it’s a miracle that Smash caught on as much as it did. Because even to this day. There are aspects of that game that feel awkward to regular people. And yes holding back to block is one of those things that I think has become so accepted among genre enthusiasts that I think a lot of people don’t realize how “weird” it is. Even among gamers.

[@Theyungcity23]

Thank you! I feel vindication watching this video. Theres just much stuff fighting game design that could be improved or adapted to just make better more engaging games. But there is so much pushback where if you say anything the fgc responds with "you dont need to know that to win." As if fighting games were slot machines... Alan Moore had written a foreword in a Hellboy collection where he says that Mignola (the series writer and artist) is brilliant because he understands how to pay homage to the stories he grew up with while also trying to improve and innovative on them. And I feel like in the fgc that sort of thinking is considered blasphemous. You see this in the shmup community too...

[@surrendering2within]

Great vid!

[@jiikae]

APPRECIATE YOU

[@NevermoreFE]

the only fg franchise with a block button that has a significant dedicated competitive fanbase is smash. all other ‘block button’ games are popular, but don’t have a significant competitive fanbase (arena fighters, mk). it's interesting that things have shaken out this way. it's also kind of ironic that hold back to block is one of those things that people find complicated. iirc the creators of street fighter said that they wanted the game to be simple by having every button be an attack button. that way, even if you didnt know what you were doing, you could still fight back by pressing anything.

[@jiikae]

The idea of “every attack being a button” is super interesting. I do wonder which approach is more friendly to random mashing

[@gameguy301]

My biggest issue with fighting games is the stick motion inputs for attacks, I am a firm believer that controls should be as reliable to input, fast to input, simple, and intuitive to learn as possible. Complexity of input should only exist where it is necessary to achieve the full breadth of possible outputs. In essence the barrier between “I think it” and “I do it” should be as slim as possible and this goes for any game genre. Only recently have established fighting game franchises even attempted to address this but their efforts have been tepid and the community has given mostly ridicule and backlash for even these half hearted attempts to resolve this. A lot of it seems to be traditionalism and sunk cost. Fighting game controls got set in their ways in the era of coin operated arcade cabinets. Is it by some miracle this genre in its infancy had already discovered control perfection back in the 1980s? Doubtful. Imagine if first person shooters still used the keyboard to aim like they did in Wolfenstein 3D. Imagine if Armored Core still used shoulder buttons to aim and D-pad to move like it did back on the original PlayStation.

[@jiikae]

This is a very interesting point when comparing how the genre’s controls have evolved slower than other genres. I agree with you on the “needing to achieve the breadth of possible outputs” part because yeah tricky part of fighters is that characters have more moves/abilities than most other (real-time multiplayer) genres. And there are only so many buttons on the controllers. So sometimes it’s a battle between reducing character capabilities or having to come up with weird control inputs to let you use more moves. There’s also the question of using high execution to “balance” powerful moves too. Fighting games are kind of inherently in a weird spot when it comes to figuring out how to solve some of the awkwardness. But I agree that they should keep trying

[@Gordoniankid]

"A lot of it seems to be traditionalism and sunk cost." That is a VERY INTERESTING point. Look how people get upset at stuff like "Auto Combos" or "Modern Controls Schemes" in newer fighting games made to support fans not accustomed to normalized inputs. Your mentioning of first person shooter controls reminds me of that Gamespot Review for Alien Ressurection. A review infamous for despising the control scheme of Left Stick to Move, Right Stick to Look. What become the modern control scheme for so many genres nowadays. Or how Rayman 2 baffled people (including developers) by not using Tank Controls that were seen as a must for it's controls. So mentioning how Fighting Games haven't changed much of the years is a crazy thought. Granted not everything needs some wild evolution. But it is insane that Arcade Era Jank is still around and excused by fans because they dealt with it, so everyone else has to aswell.

[@gameguy301]

@@jiikae Soul Calibur does a decent job of this although its not perfect either, the trick is it uses both permanent stances and transitent stances to change available moves. some take it to an extreme like Voldo or Yoshimitsu but even Mitsurugi has a stance for some of his more important moves and some transient stances that alter control context. Ironically I mained Taki who uses quarter circle back to enter her stance. looking outside of fighting games Nioh 2 packs an outrageous number of moves and abilities into an intuitive control scheme by using a combination of stances and modifiers.

[@HoboWithAShotgun]

Blocking by not pressing a button or by pressing back, is just obnoxious lol. I understand that other buttons are used for something else but its stuff like that thats stopping people from liking them. (You can of course get used to controls but alot are really turned off by the first impression)

[@jiikae]

Definitely!!

[@azimulhoque1497]

Is no one gonna talk about the waffle house stage in MB???? 🤣 You touch on a good point about how fighting game visuals are somewhat cluttered. The genre does pride itself on being visually clear and concise...for those who play the genre. The ability for a move to look the same and feel similar but have different outcomes adds to the mental stack, which can make genre heads salivate, but a normal person is going to have trouble with it in the immediate. It's a hard problem to solve but I think it is an aspect of the genre that is hard to erase. Moreso, in the competitive space, FGs are far more dexterous. You need a lot of finger control (ayo) to be decent a fighting game. Something like CSGO and LoL are hard games at a high level, but the inputs are comparatively more easy to grasp. Either you move a camera to aim or you click on something to attack. FGs are all about finger control. If you can't solve a problem fast enough in both your brain and muscle, then you are eating the combo.

[@Gordoniankid]

'Is no one gonna talk about the waffle house stage in MB???? 🤣' I was thinking about that, but still said nothing XD.

[@jiikae]

Waffle House is a known part of Melty Blood lore 🙂‍↕️ But yeah I’m glad you brought up the fact that the visual ambiguity is a part of what makes the genre appealing to hardcore players. It adds a lot to the mental element of everything.

[@jiikae]

LOL

[@ldjchs]

Great video!!! Why you no use your music for intro/outro/background music?

[@jiikae]

I do sometimes! It just depends on the vibe I'm going for in the video. Still experimenting tbh

[@WKS202]

are we not normal people *_*

[@jiikae]

We are. In the video I used finger air quotes to basically say I’m not using the word “normal” literally. Just shorthand for “people not familiar with genre” If you’re just joking though disregard this 😂

[@WKS202]

@jiikae tried to make a joke^^ it's fr really hard to get "normal people" into fighting games while their playing. that's why i like to show them youtube videos of the gameplay first and kind of explain it first before we start playing.

[@jiikae]

@ i figured haha. And thats an interesting approach to getting people into it actually.