Why Germany Doesn't Buy the F-35

[@MilitaryAviationHistory]

Had to shorten the source names on this one since apparently you can only have 5000 characters in the description... #usingsourcesonYTproblem

[@rocketman1058]

Price? For real? Grandma's Eurofighter are 30% pricier.

[@frankbarnwell____]

I'd like you to feel defended.... F35 is expensive. but then again fa18s with .... themselves. efs, whatnot can handle Russians and Chinese

[@Jon.A.Scholt]

Those "y'all's" thrown in there by the American Salesman character gave me a good laugh. I've never heard a German speaker attempting an American accent and using y'all. From an American I can tell you it was wunderbar!

[@ajc5479]

Perhaps another reason for buying European is the possibility that America won't be a reliable partner in the future.

[@jeffk464]

The plane to buy might be the KF-21

[@MrRinoHunter]

Revisiting this video March 14, 2022... Every TV station in Germany is announcing that Germans will buy F35 😗

[@H.P206]

Revisiting this Video on june 23 of 2023

[@phantomkate6]

I always appreciate a nuanced and detailed look at something because issues are almost never as simple as they appear in headlines.

[@MilitaryAviationHistory]

Thanks very much!

[@GF1045Prime]

Same, I prefer his video than most as he is very measured.

[@BenTrem42]

Before coming across your _"never as simple"_ I wrote this as my comment: *Do we know **_what we don't know_** about it all?*

[@Farweasel]

I was background aware in a vague way Germany 'has issues' with its defence and getting folk to buy in. In fact most Western states seem to have large and growing percentages of their populations who are very simplistic & niave in their grasp of geo-political reality. I actually have mixed feelings about Ursula von der Layen sacking an expert Air General. On the one hand he should be the SME. On the other anyone who knows theior history knows Lockheed sold Germany F104 Starfighters not because it was good (it was a deathtrap) but because Lockheed bribed senior Luftwaffe & Political players. And don't forget who builds the F35. Now here's a dimension not picked up in the Video The USA has slashed its F35 orders. Its buying more uprated F15s instead. Why? Partly cost F35 are roughly three times as expensive to maintain. But more worryingly, because F15s are apparently *much* more reliable. As the Royal Navy what they think about F35 delivery schedules for instance. And you might get sounded out would Germany like to buy a couple of undersized aircraft carriers designed for a plane which barely works.

[@paavobergmann4920]

@@Farweasel Yes, but again, I got to learn that even the Starfighter desaster itself wasn´t as easy or clear cut as hindsight or tabloid headlines suggests. The F-104 actually wasn´t a bad plane at all. It was the F-104G variant that had issues, for some specifically german problems: The F-104 was a dedicated interceptor, but germany wanted, again, the egg-laying-wool-milk-pig, and demanded the thing be stuffed with gadgets to become a multirole fighter AND attack-bomber. Then they added some more european gadgets to the american platform, that were not 100% compatible. Then they had a sophisticated, delicate racing-car of a plane, but not enough hangars, so they left them to rot out on the tarmac like some old tractor. And finally, the training of both air- and ground crews was too limited. And it was this complete layer-cake of tossups that led to 1/3 of the F-104Gs hitting the dirt. The F-104 in and of itself really was a fabulous plane, with an accident ratio well within the range of contemporary fighters. The Luftwaffe-F104Gs sucked. Big time.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

A German trying to imitate a German. Now I've seen everything.

[@conveyor2]

Someone with a German name remarking that a German is imitating a German. Now I've seen everything.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

@@conveyor2 lol, sorry to say I ain't no German. My name actually originates from Switzerland.

[@janrobertbos]

@@conveyor2 roflmao!!!

[@janrobertbos]

@@jacobbaumgardner3406 yeah, right, they still speak German when they are called Baumgardner.........LOLLOL

[@ron9320]

@@jacobbaumgardner3406 an what’s the difference?

[@trentpetersen443]

Germany missed the F35 kickstarter discount

[@davidhimmelsbach557]

While witty, you're spot on. That really is the hang-up.

[@thegreathadoken6808]

Makes up for all the penalties they never miss.

[@brantregare]

The kickstarter discount was not that attractive. The kickstarter partners were told to fork over more dough to get access to a crippled version of the aircraft. Not a good deal at all. It is like getting someone else to pay for the cake that you get to eat.

[@davidhimmelsbach557]

@@brantregare The US does not sell crippled aircraft to its NATO partners. It's the USSR that was famed for 'monkey models.' Admittedly, the exported machines are not 100% equivalent to US machines. But they are not dogs. The Israelis accept US exports -- and they don't do so badly with -- what you term as -- cripples. The UK is not getting 'dogs.' The US wants its NATO partners to have un-beatable fighters, bombers, and everything else. It does not figure to -- or fear -- fighting its NATO allies under any scenario. The weirdness of the Turks: Russian S-400s will obviously not bother the Russian air force. So their only purpose must be to shoot at NATO aircraft. What kind of crazy tyrant pays Big Bucks for weapons that only ever can work if aimed at his allies ? Yet, the S-400 does not work against F-35s. This is rather obvious from the Syrian strikes by the Israelis. No-one is bubbling up with what the weaknesses of the S-400 are -- but the Israelis have figured on some work-arounds -- that's for sure.

[@hsy831]

Lmao

[@grindcorejoe6661]

Just take some old Nuke-Tornados, trench them with some anti-rust agent and put them into a glas-box with a sign "Break glas at Defcon 2"

[@rollerrollerichson6258]

I like this idea 🤣

[@steveperreira5850]

I kind of like that. Nukes are the best deterrent of all, and cost-effective, you only need a few of them and the ability to deliver, delivered just one and your enemy is terrified that you can do that. Remember the west German boy who flew his Cessna 150 and landed at the Kremlin in the midst of the Cold War? That was funny.

[@beefgoat80]

Nuke all the hummies!!!

[@chukkie0001]

@UCx64e7lDY8azYXWLARZSqpw They have uranium ore and enrichment facilities and almost a breeder reactor. These days its not that hard to make a bomb.

[@spindash64]

@@steveperreira5850 Surprised that thing could take off carrying the weight of his massive balls

[@michaelrivera131]

The F-35 clearly isn't over-engineered enough for Germany.

[@yeoshenghong4802]

Because German relationship with Russia is good with pipeline buying Russia oil

[@felix25ize]

@@looinrims The Craptor ? No more produced, with good reasons for that...

[@felix25ize]

@@looinrims F-35 is even worse; needs to be protected by an entire fleet of real fighters... and the programm will cost overall 1 trillion and half $. The biggest scandal in the history of U.S.A. !

[@amerularif230]

@@felix25ize overall cost mate, n the expensive sensor bla bla..so its not suprise the cost so high. But at the end of the day, every nation buy a fighter based on their doctrine and budget

[@felix25ize]

@@amerularif230 Yes, but they can buy good or bad fighters; btw, F-35 is not a good fighter, not even a real fighter.

[@Lapantouflemagic0]

"in germany everyone keeps playing hot potato with defense issues, delaying decisions for decades" meanwhile in france : we'll make a new carrier to replace the old one. it will be almost twice bigger and nuclear. half of everyone : eh, sure i guess. the other half : can't we just keep both ?

[@theflourman6219]

Waste of money Germans still will walk through Spineless France like everytime

[@scottessery100]

@@theflourman6219 it’s ok. They have lots of spare subs now Australia don’t want them

[@michaelkuschnefsky362]

Don't we already have enough other problems in the world. Why destroy the money in the military, what is more urgent is climate change and also overpopulation. Solutions have to be found and the money poured into it and not into the military. And as a German I can only say after two world wars and all the injustice that came into this world from our side, it is enough. Never again war. The world's problems have never been solved with weapons.

[@Lapantouflemagic0]

​@@michaelkuschnefsky362 sorry for the sarcasm, but the ships are not _made_ out of money, as if 100€ bills were glued together to form the hull and never replaced. that money is not destroyed, it is the paycheck of thousands of workers, it maintains precious know-hows and industrial capabilities. War will inevitably come back and the one who wins will be the one who is ready. like it or not, some countries _want_ war. when turkey decide to invade greek islands because long story short, they want more, someone will need to go and kick the crap out of them. hugging trees and saying "please be nice" never stopped a column of tanks, 500kg guided warheads however...

[@shounakganguly5441]

@@Lapantouflemagic0, you don't need to spend a stupid amount of money to win wars. Example: Vietnam, Afghanistan. 9/11 was done with box cutters and knives. Also, do you know what stops tanks? Kill the people who are ordering the strikes. Kill the presidents, leaders, and army commanders. Next time a war happens, the first attack should be on the family of the president. Kill some of his children and take some away, war will be over in 2 days.

[@Mautiks]

Too expensive for Germany’s annual defense budget of like €3,000.

[@bryburiya2709]

@@looinrims *3

[@phantom4E2]

same for spain, our goverment hates the country

[@ScubaShark--8964]

@@bryburiya2709 0.30

[@cameraman1234567890a]

@@phantom4E2 Spending more money on welfare and things that actually improve people’s lives instead of massive military spending when they’re already backed up by nato doesn’t mean they hate the country

[@yixinmei5854]

Your govt love your country. Buy less weapons, save them for welfare, let the Americans do the dirty works. That is what we Chinese dream of , but you are complaining about that.

[@fredmaughan5669]

F-35 asks the F-22: "Does this stealth treatment make my ass look big?"

[@unclejoeoakland]

Thick thighs- and stealth- save lives.

[@Killerpixel11]

Fat Amy isn't ashamed.

[@ramonsrgravidez7221]

Ask f15x or new typhoons

[@SkinPeeleR]

Stealth is so 20th century. If you can see,touch or hear it then you can track it. Use scrambling and electronic warfare. Create a big electronic black hole and you can fly a B52 unseen. Electronic "window".

[@KondorDCS]

F22: No, your VTOL engines make you fat, draggy and unmanouvreable, but it's not your fault. You are just a bad design.

[@cjpreach]

"A check list of political buzzword Bingo." What a great phrase.

[@hugopepe1722]

he is just polite, it actually is "bullshit bingo"

[@hdjfjd8]

political correctness in short

[@g54b95]

As a GI stationed in Germany in the early 90's with a multi-system TV, I can testify to the fact that Germans have a sense of humor.

[@robstone4537]

Compared to Russians, Germans are fucking hilarious.

[@aussieausdeutschland4245]

They definitely are funny.

[@joephysics5469]

Reminds me of what Robin Williams said - "Why are there no German comedians? They killed all of the funny people..." He did have a bit of a dark side at times.

[@BIOSHOCKFOXX]

@Tdan Kendros When the theme is about humor, and someone strolls in saying how "something else" is better elsewhere that isn't humor. For the record, it is opinionates and subjective which country women are better looking. While I do admit that Russian females are beautiful, my own country's females are beautiful too, as well as females in other countries too. Some do not have that many beautiful females.

[@paul8158]

@Tdan Kendros Yes maybe hotter, but colder! I would go for a scandinavian having the choice between all three,

[@MietoK]

Meanwhile in Finland. “Here are parameters for test program, send one of each western models and well have some war games.” 6 months later “Ok, F-35 won, send 64 of those.”

[@cattledog901]

"Murican Bismark isn't real, he can't hurt you." Murican Bismark: 2:27

[@The1trueJester]

So...Nicholas Cage?

[@protonneutron9046]

???????????

[@derlasercrafterwally4342]

@@protonneutron9046 his outfit I guess

[@wiryantirta]

its the Bismark Lockheed salesman chad vs the Bismark german defense ministry virgin

[@spazmodicusrex6629]

@@derlasercrafterwally4342 He said "Y'all".

[@mcd3379]

Germany is waiting for development to be completed on the Messerschmitt 2.0

[@TrakThora]

That would be great.

[@thanakonpraepanich4284]

Will they finish the job before the war start?

[@haroldomiyaura912]

I support a Messerschimitt Me262 2.0

[@fiddledotgoth]

I think I prefer the Germans being reluctant to take military decisions...

[@MrHeidiHigh]

We need a good Groundattacker so we need an Stuka-Update 💪

[@Nibb31]

The Eurofighter might cost more than the F-35 option, but the difference is that the money is spent domestically and it maintains domestic technological skills and industrial capability. Also, maintaining a single aircraft instead of two reduces the operational costs. Sometimes, those reasons make it worth paying more.

[@simonm1447]

The Eurofigher is going to be replaced in the 2040s by the FCAS (at least this is the current plan). A F-35 purchase would jeopardize the FCAS program, because it is too capable to get replaced in 20 years. The Eurofighter however needs the FCAS program, because a non stealth aircraft will be unusable in 20 years. They always had more than one aircraft type, they had Tornados and F-4s in the past, the F-4 was replaced by the Eurofighter. Only one fighter is not a good idea, if the aircraft is grounded because of technical reasons (which can happen) you loose the complete fleet.

[@zeitgeistx5239]

You miss that the Eurofighter and the F-35 are not equals and generations apart.

[@tonikotinurmi9012]

Some are kind of afraid of hidden kill-switches in their planes. Be it small weakened part of electronics on planes sold abroad or programmed one, reason to fear such is why _some_ countries are out of the race (here locally).

[@RaGeAlucard]

and foreign country´s would get an inferior F35 compared to US

[@simonm1447]

@@RaGeAlucard yes, but export versions are often inferior, the same with German subs . The export F-35 is still a capable aircraft.

[@simonpaine91]

Think the issue is the Germans hate the idea of buying or relying on foreign technology, especially if such has to come from the US , Uk , or god forbid from France ,

[@gantulgaganhuyag717]

Hahaha good one! Specially the last part

[@davidquak4398]

Rafale is amazing.

[@JeffLeChefski]

Yes, except their current fighters are joint European designs....Eurofighter Typhoon and Panavia Tornado.

[@aalb1873]

No Germany is actually strictly allied with France. Germany don’t buy F 35 because don’t want irritate France.

[@JeffLeChefski]

@@aalb1873 France is part of NATO. What year are you living in?

[@bryanaveri6816]

The Luftwaffe was still using the F-104 for test purposes until 22 May 1991. So Germany is a little different with its aircraft purchases.

[@fazeobama8872]

we got leopard tank we got puma ifv which do ya want

[@ravenmusic6392]

Also F-4’s until 2010. To be fair the F-104 was upgraded for the Germans and had AIM-7 missiles but yeah, Germany has always had a fairly old Air Force but good ground based air defences.

[@nunyabidness3075]

IMO, there is no replacement for 104 for Germany. It was stupid dangerous to pilots, but amazing as an interceptor.

[@bryanaveri6816]

@@nunyabidness3075 Kelly Johnson was always pushing the envelope....

[@e30kitty]

But they were not used for other things. We got Tornados, Phantoms and Mig 29s before we moved to the Eurofighter (what is a ugly bird) :D Why no F-35? It had no good press, it's a single engine plane and we also like to design our own stuff like we did with the EF, Tornado and Tiger helicopter.

[@panzeri209]

Germans: secretly making the flying Bismarck😎

[@teaandmedals]

Space Battleship Yamato has entered the chat.

[@sujalshetty5986]

the flying ratte

[@davidmacdonald1695]

In which case they will achieve nothing and get shot down.

[@sujalshetty5986]

@@davidmacdonald1695 u must be fun at parties

[@rexmopser7152]

@@davidmacdonald1695 well if you use the ship bismark as benchmark for that statement the ship blowed the flagship of the british navy up (hms hood) a naval country that where superior on the seas for centurys and got killed in a unwinnable battle vs hundreds of planes and a full fleet in a hunt for days and the biggest archivment the ship bismark was important enought to get a own sabaton song

[@saacexe]

I love these videos, learning about luftwaffe politics is a welcome break from the RAF budget stuff im used to. Keep them coming!

[@MilitaryAviationHistory]

Thanks !

[@haaaltstopp658]

@William Mulvaney Atomwaffen means Nuclear Weapons.

[@foty8679]

@William Mulvaney You write it together as "Atomwaffen" not sepearted.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Lmao

[@jeebus6263]

@William Mulvaney, unless you're in Belgium, then it's AtomWaffle!

[@liviuconstantin9960]

US: "So, are you in or are you out for the F-35?" Germany: "Let me sink about it....let me sink....let me ..."

[@quantum340]

Reminds me of an radio exchange between a sinking English mechant vessel and the German coast guard: Merchant vessel: "We are sinking! We are sinking! Over!" German coast guard: "Zis is ze Coast Guard. Vat are you sinking about? Over."

[@liviuconstantin9960]

@@quantum340 Yes, I remember that funny commercial.

[@michaelhart7569]

​@@quantum340 Did you see the one with the Germanic-looking nuclear family of four in their car, foot-tapping to a radio song with lyrics that are unrepeatable here? It's fantastic.

[@quantum340]

@@michaelhart7569 Alas, I do not know that one.

[@Canada-_]

It's scary how similar Germany's and Canada's situation is with regards to military procurement.

[@jasonpeters6600]

Canada is protected by the USA. They do not need a military… Germany is pretty close to that with US military bases in Germany…

[@cvjanzen550]

Exactly right.

[@Canada-_]

@@jasonpeters6600 what has that have to do with military procurement? and Canada's likeness to Germany? and imo Canada does have a need for a military but that's just my opinion.

[@jasonpeters6600]

@@Canada-_ now your just being naive.. neither Canada nor Germany need 5 th gen fighters, they are already protected by them… try to attack Canada, and see who retaliates first, Canada or USA…

[@Canada-_]

@@jasonpeters6600 ahh, well I don't disagree thus why Canada dropped the F-35 and are looking at late 4th gen fighters, and again not here to talk about Defense agreements here to talk about military Aviation cause its cool as shit. Thx

[@chs76945]

Your attempt at a Texas accent was..... disturbing, yet hilarious. I'm not sure if I want you to promise to never do that again, or do it continuously in every video from now on.

[@DeinonychusA]

Okay, it's not just me then. Hearing Chris say Y'all was unsettling ;D

[@minimax9452]

So you now can imagine the feelings of a german in hollywood Films? Disgusting.

[@jimmym3352]

It's as hilarious as Brad Pitt's Italian accent in Inglourious Basterds.

[@spartanx9293]

The issue is Lockheed Martin is headquartered in Maryland

[@kelleren4840]

100% agree lol

[@AGS363]

Well, this aged poorly....

[@LibertyFirst1789]

The only thing more expensive than winning a war is losing one.

[@wadebradley7388]

Excellent point

[@bjjace1]

You think they would know.

[@Belisarius277]

really, why is germany's economy a powerhouse after losing two consecutive wars then? the only thing more expensive than winning a war is preparing like it is going to be like the last one and having to conclude after 40+ years that it is not coming. We are discussing a piloted plane that is already obsolete. Ever heard of drones? Perhaps ask the armenians how their superior tank force got annihilated by essentially RC planes. Good luck with your "last war"-doctrine

[@NeoEngineCorp]

@@Belisarius277 Germany's economy was a wreck after the First World War, leading to the rise of Nazis. Germany was completely destroyed after the Second World War, but this time it was built back up again afterwards by the West and Soviets to serve their own purpose. So the answer to your first question would be "Because the victors wishes it so." Piloted planes are not obsolete. The Armenians screwed up by not investing heavier on air defense systems, which was also relevant in "last wars."

[@LibertyFirst1789]

@@Belisarius277 I'm guessing you have never heard of the Marshall Plan. As the resident expert, I would expect you to be at least somewhat familiar with the fundamentals of the topics you discuss. Drones? It's that easy, huh? Just say "drones" and you magically win! Do some research on where we are with drones before you make comments.

[@protosszocker5678]

Damn last time I was this early the luftwaffe still used messerschmitt and focker-wulfs.

[@Damian-03x3]

Focke-Wulf best wulf.

[@romanthenumeral9497]

messerschmitt is good shit

[@Damian-03x3]

@@romanthenumeral9497 262 is cool. 109 isn't really my thing personally (that windshield looks awful) But yeah messerschmitt overall is cool.

[@luftwaffe8086]

Only k 4 bf 109 is cool

[@Damian-03x3]

@@luftwaffe8086 You mean F4? G2 is also cool.

[@Jowjoejoe]

They just looked at Lockheed Martin on the plane and was like: Nein not this again(F104 flashback)

[@spartanx9293]

How the f-35 is extremely surviveable

[@randomuser5443]

@@spartanx9293 the joke still stands

[@spartanx9293]

@@randomuser5443 not really it doesn't apply well to the f35

[@wolfifly5944]

@@spartanx9293 bruh mate do you know what a joke is?

[@petersouthernboy6327]

That 3% availability rate for Luftwaffe Eurofighter Typhoons means that they will have very low flight hours well into the future 🤣

[@JasonDykstraMT]

The last time I was this early, the skies over Malta were still defended by three Gladiators

[@elixir4487]

The last time I was this early, this joke was kind a fresh

[@worstchoresmadesimple6259]

and copious amounts of Pimms.

[@5555petros]

I always loved that story. It's like Ace Combat come to life!

[@localbod]

..... and the German aircraft were sporting some extra markings. 😉

[@woooster17]

Maximus, Juba & Hagen?? Wow, you were early!!

[@kaamsogrimm]

they’re gonna bring back the ME-262

[@TheRetirednavy92]

I'll buy one.

[@patrickjones1061]

Thats where the US and the world got the jet engine from!!!

[@cakeman7364]

@@patrickjones1061 no not really, the us and the Brits were already working on the jet engines

[@marcherbst4041]

@@cakeman7364 Oh, really... What US or British manufacturers were working on jet engines, before they encountered the ME-262? And why bother with launching operation Paperclip then?

[@cakeman7364]

@@marcherbst4041since the German were the first to implement the jet fighter successfully, yes the us and UK were first but the engines were very primitive

[@matteotivan3414]

That salesman and buyer clip made my day

[@DirtyHairy1]

next: MAH pivots to Military Procurement Satire MPS

[@wiryantirta]

the clothing decision for the Luftwaffe desk jockey is even funnier. I swear my uncle has a similar green vest

[@leonardwei3914]

When I was in the Army, it was often said "A hasty, potentially bad decision is better than no decision." Yet when it comes to politics, I often think "No decision is always better than a hasty, potentially bad one." It seems Germany's dilemma combines both.

[@lovablesnowman]

The German armed forces on a whole are a joke. It's a shame. We need a strong German military to help with NATO

[@bluefox9436]

@@lovablesnowman Explain that to our politicians... even the defense minister has no clue about millitary technology and the funny thing is thst there is litterally no capable alternative to our current government- so basically germany itself is in a dilemma...

[@Janoip]

It can be well explained, after the Second World War, militarism was removed from Germany by the Allies as best they could, as it was done with patriotism. For the most part, there is only local patriotism for one's place/Federal state you live. Anything that goes beyond that is quickly attacked. And everything that goes in the direction of the military is also quickly tackled, e.g. the tiresome topic of drones... Then there is a huge outcry why we would rather pay more money to get an unarmed drone instead of one with France etc. that can also be armed for less money. The whole thing will get worse depending on the end of the year, the CDU (Merkel's party) has a lot of problems right now, scandals because of mask deals etc. and elected a chancellor candidate who is not good. If things go badly, the Greens, who are very left-wing and actually hard against the military, might win this year. Then even more money will be cut in the military and everything that goes in the direction of attack (missiles for helicopters, nuclear weapons, bombs etc.) will be blocked as much as possible. At the moment, the Bundeswehr is simply the child that nobody wants, but we must have.

[@leonardwei3914]

@@Janoip For being the leader of North Korea, you have remarkable interest in German politics.

[@lovablesnowman]

@@Janoip which is total horseshit because the Bundeswehr was well funded and equipped throughout almost the entirety of the cold war. The g West Germans had 12 mechanized divisions by 1989 ffs. The current state of the German armed forces has nothing to do with WW2 or German attitudes to the military. It's purely a political decision being made that Germany doesn't care about it's allies or the free world as a whole

[@ericwright8498]

2.30 - as they say, the German sense of humour is no laughing matter:)

[@OneMoreDesu]

Looking back on this now is a good discussion in itself

[@Larpy1933]

Well-done and thanks. Military procurement in Canada is embarrassingly slow and non-decisive - and that’s being kind. The perspective on the German situation that you’ve provided gives me some balance, although little room for hope here in Canada.

[@sifis172]

why does canada need warplanes?

[@marcofava]

i'm of the mind that Canada should definitely go for the Gripen E/F for their next fighter, it is basically tailor made for them.

[@marcofava]

@@sifis172 for the same reason that Belgium, Netherlands and Portugal do because it's better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them

[@marcofava]

@William Mulvaney just ask the Australians what happen with the Emus, and those birds could not even fly

[@marcofava]

@William Mulvaney As far as cars go i never heard anyone complain about SAAB's even had a friend that bought what was to be the last generation of the SAAb 9-5 about 10-12 years ago, but when it comes to SAAB Aerospace the only thing they have to envy national companies like Dassault, Alenia, Lockheed Martin, Boeing or Sukhoi is the fact that the mother nations of those countries pump a lot more into defense than SAAB gets. When it comes to the quality and performance of their equipment it's right up there with the best of them, plus as far as Canada is concerned the Gripen fits their requirements perfectly, a super cruise capable single engine multirole fighter that can be integrated into NORAD Systems and NATO (And really whatever system you want) with full sensor fusion as well as it being designed with low maintenance costs as well as low lifetime costs and it is designed for cold/arctic environments and climates, on top of that SAAB usually sweetens the pot with a couple of AWACS systems and a full technological transfer. There are Swedish Gripens kicking around with Eurofighter, Rafale, F-35 and F-22 kill markings (Earned in various multilateral excericses) and as far as all reports go the Gripen is a great aircraft to fly and a scary one to fly against.

[@octaviocuesta1155]

Post-Traumatic Starfighter Disorder flashbacks ?

[@spartanx9293]

That's what you get for using an interceptor as a fighter bomber they honestly would have been better off buying f-105s

[@simonm1447]

They don't want to jeopardize the FCAS program. A modern fighter like the F-35 would make this program almost unnecessary, and would lead to a loss of skills and knowledge in the European fighter industry. So they have to buy something obsolete like the F-18 which is only usable for 20 or 25 years (with restrictions in use, because no stealth) to participate on the FCAS program which is planned to replace Eurofighters and the F-18 in the 2040s. The F-18 in Germany is not purchased as an interceptor, but as a bomber, and a bomber for operation in enemy territory is only usable on paper if it has no stealth today, but this is probably wanted by the decision makers. They also castrated the Eurofighters by not equipping it with CFTs to avoid they have to take more responsibilities.

[@spartanx9293]

@@simonm1447 so they want to have a completely outclassed Air Force for the next 20 years just because they don't want to swallow their pride they can still work on fcas anyways and have the f-35 supplement whatever they design

[@simonm1447]

@@spartanx9293 Yes. They also castrated the German tranche 3 Eurofighters by removing the capability of carrying CFTs, which would have been standard. They don't want a very capable air force, because they don't want to take too much responsibilities outside the homeland defense.

[@spartanx9293]

@@simonm1447 why would they remove cfts unless it's affecting the aerodynamics of the aircraft which they by definition shouldn't. I don't see the issue I feel like it's just going to hurt the design in the long run

[@hansblix8211]

Time to restart the Messerschmitt factory and bring back the ME262, or you can give Merkel a pitchfork 🤣

[@lipmar9014]

Greetings from Germany Today its anouncing that Germany buy the Lockheed Martin F 35 Greetings Philipp

[@AClark-gs5gl]

I think the ME-262 is still a beautiful, awesome fighter design! A design that was/is light years ahead of its time! Give me a couple of the most powerful turbo fan jet engines with thrust vector vectoring that it can handle, 4 sidewinders, a brrrrt gun, a cannon and I'd be set.

[@WaukWarrior360]

The Me 262 wasn't "light years" ahead of its time. Every allied nation had a Jet fighter. The P-80 Shooting Star specifically was a superior aircraft compared to the Me 262

[@darthsaren6519]

clearly Joshua , yep, of course, everyone had jets ...right. christ im getting tired of this western aura of superiority. Yes you wont the war , but you might at least admit in terms of tech Germany was way ahead in so many areas

[@crabbyjungle5670]

@@WaukWarrior360 American reports literally call the 262 equal,if not superior to the p80

[@WaukWarrior360]

@@darthsaren6519 I don't have to "admit that Germany was ahead in tech in so many areas" because they weren't. They had good glass optics, made good standardized bunkers, synthetic fuels etc which I will admit. But in most other areas their reputation has been vastly overstated

[@WaukWarrior360]

@@crabbyjungle5670 There's literally no American reports saying the Me-262 was superior or even equal to the P-80.

[@wwjjss33]

Really excellent, comprehensive, and nuanced discussion of this topic! The Algorithm suggested your video and I am so glad to have stumbled across your content. Hopefully you also have content auf Deutsch. You have earned a new subscriber!

[@kristianhansen5057]

The political climate in Germany makes it impossible to make decisions based on a military perspective.

[@mikexhotmail]

@Rafael Acosta How about some LGBT?

[@Jack-he8jv]

clearly need some brightly colored specimens in the government.

[@inconnu4961]

@@Jack-he8jv This thread is hysterical! i think we may have gotten slightly off topic from the OP, but it was worth it! Me thinks my country is leading the way with the most eccentric, but inept Bureaucrats money can buy!

[@slartybartfarst55]

Thank you. You laid this out very clearly. I'm English, but have lived in Germany for over 20 Years and now have my German Citizenship, so topics like this are very important to me.

[@MilitaryAviationHistory]

Thank you very much, very happy to hear this

[@minimax9452]

welcome to germany!

[@Twiggyay]

Also; good name

[@realQuiGon]

Funny enough that topics like this are totally unimportant for the average German :D

[@minimax9452]

@@realQuiGon So you are this average guy - thanks.

[@VladKepes]

Finland got its final offers from all manufacturers yesterday (Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, BAE, Dassault, Saab), and I think I've heard that exact same F-35 sales pitch myself. The aim is to procure around 64 fighters for €10 billion.

[@bighands69]

When the Communists coming rolling into town billions will seem like pocket change.

[@shi01]

@@bighands69 Well the last time the communists tried to invade Finland, well...it didn't go exactly as planed to say the least...

[@bighands69]

@@shi01 And what if they are flying over head?

[@Jo-xx2rd]

7:25 “Now im going to be very clear..... alot of this is somewhat unclear. lol Made my day haha

[@hoodoo2001]

As a Texan I appreciate the "y'all".

[@nonyabuziness5082]

You’re an embarrassment…

[@inconnu4961]

That was a nice touch! I had to applaud the 'y'all' and im not a southerner!

[@patriot03062]

I love the model airplanes behind you. I built so many when I was younger. Air Models website down below. Ok. Danke Schoen

[@Perplexer1]

0:06 , 0:27 , 12:51 -- Tornado looks so beefy and awesome with the Luftwaffe insignia!

[@HeliRy]

Everything looks better in Luftwaffe

[@AbhiGuntaka]

@@HeliRy Good thing it was nice it was the last thing those poles saw

[@misterbig9025]

Tornado performed badly during the Gulf War

[@XCougar85X]

@@misterbig9025 How so? From what i understood it did quite well attacking airfields?

[@MPPelli]

This was very interesting, as just today the Finnish Air Force got their bids in from all the manufacturers of the candidates for the replacement of the F/A-18 Hornet, including the F-35, Typhoon and the Super Hornet. Unfortunately, for the moment at least, all the details of the bids (such as the number of aircraft) are kept secret from the general public.

[@watcherzero5256]

The competition is for 64 aircraft though some manufacturers may have to offer less to meet the $11.7bn budget cap, Saab has actually offered more, saying it will throw in a couple of GlobalEye AEW aircraft likely as they are the budget option. I understand all the aircraft the passed the Finnish Airforce combat trials with the exception of the F-35 which failed to be combat ready for a couple of the sorties, though Lockheed are pointing to the F-35 being in service with Norway dealing with the cold (they have arctic modifications including a parachute brake). Eurofighter has offered industrial participation and workshare on planned upgrades over the next decade while Boeing is touting the Super Hornet having 60% parts commonality with the retiring Hornets meaning easier logistics introduction/training. We know both the american submissions are over budget (as they have to get Senate approval for foreign sales and the contract values are published), with the F-35 at $14.7bn (25% over budget) and the Super Hornet at $12.7bn (8% over budget).

[@samarkand1585]

Curious, why isn't Rafale in the list too?

[@jimc1654]

@@watcherzero5256 I think you need to wait for the number first before say it. The Saab offer never say it will be 64 aircraft and GlobalEye AEW. It just say unknown number of aircraft and GlobalEye AEW. We know by tomorrow when they reported. Most Likely less then 64 aircrafts because the GlobalEye AEW is very expensive. From Finnish news, the offer for the super Hornet is 64 aircraft for 10.9 bn.

[@watcherzero5256]

@@jimc1654 Super Hornet bid is 10.9bn Euro which is more in US dollars (Programme caps are 9bn Euro for aircraft and 1bn Euro for munitions, equipment and spares), the 64 aircraft is 50 Hornets and 14 Growler variants. Saab has confirmed its offer was 64 Gripen E and two Globaleye with final assembly in country and domestic engine manufacture and maintenance.

[@jimc1654]

@@watcherzero5256 The Saab offer do look good but We will see the level of final assembly they are going to have in country. However, there no domestics engine manufacture since its an US engine. Mostly just domestic maintenance of the engine.

[@andrzejwitowiak1353]

When in doubt compare the total cost of flight hour for each. Then check how much of that cost can be paid to home industry.

[@johnedwards3198]

When I tell my wife I want to spice things up in the bedroom... Then show her the airmodels link... I'm now divorced 😒🥺😏

[@skybot9998]

Rofl!

[@MilitaryAviationHistory]

Get the B-2, she won't see it

[@bigblue6917]

Yes. I see where you went wrong there. You should have gone with what she was expecting. And once she is full sated then mention the Airmodels. Hopefully, if you'd done your part and fully indulged her desires, she would have had less cause, and strength, to object.

[@R281]

More money for toys now

[@kelleren4840]

You could buy a bi-plane for your coming out party, if that's relevant... 😜

[@andrewtaylor940]

It’s rather horrifying just how much damage Ursula did to the German military. She single handedly wiped out more German military capability than Eisenhower and Montgomery combined.

[@paavobergmann4920]

Yup. And it´s not as if we couldn´t have seen it coming.....she didn´t suddenly appear out of nowhere, but rather consistently stumbled upwards for years....but, I mean...the predeccessor....let´s just not go there...." Ministry of Defence" is often treated as the posting for the black sheep of the family in german government building. super unpopular post, and generally a political dead-end.

[@andrewtaylor940]

@@paavobergmann4920 That's kind of sad. Understandable given some elements of German history. But worrying considering how long they had the Iron Curtain running through them. I wonder how many German's actually appreciate that Trump's problems and conflicts with Merkel largely revolved around her unwillingness to meet Germany's NATO funding obligations for many many years.?

[@thomasherbig]

@@andrewtaylor940 Yes, and it could become very hard politically in the US to militarily support a country that is becoming increasingly anti-American. After all, the US security guarantee for Germany is a burden, financially, politically, and (though hopefully not) in human cost. Personally, I think that a close alignment is absolutely essential for both countries. Fortunately, German anti-Americanism isn't part of the public dialogue in the US, but it easily could if Germany distances itself more and more.

[@xmlthegreat]

@@thomasherbig NATO countries pay for the US bases and infrastructure, so the financial aspect is actually a lie made up by American propaganda. The USA pays the troops salaries, but they would be paying that amount with or without the base. What other obligations do NATO countries need to meet? I think they are justified in not wanting to go into Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria etc.

[@paavobergmann4920]

@@andrewtaylor940 Not too many, I am afraid. Yes, it is worrying. germany is apparently in the era of gut feeling politics since ´90. We somehow need to come to grips with the fact that post-Cold-War politics is not a wellness spa. Not wanting to start a war is no arguments to not having an army... But you also have to see, that much of the reluctance stems from the events leading to the Gulf War of ´91, and especially Gulf War II in 2003 (watch "Official Secrets" as a refresher), so germany discovered that when dealing with the US in NATO, not physically being able to join the party was a comfortable place to be, to avoid getting dragged into questionable up to criminal military activities. The invasion of 2003 was based on lies and blackmail, but had germany had had the means, we probably wouldn´t have been able to withstand the political pressure to join. It´s much easier to say "no", when you can´t really make a difference, anyway.

[@TheJoeSwanon]

I would be interested to see what kind of fighter Germany would develop if they had the time to design one from the ground up.

[@BeKindToBirds]

It has been a long time since they had a home grown fighter no?

[@comsubpac]

Like the Eurofighter you mean?

[@Philistine47]

@@comsubpac I assume he means a purely domestic design.

[@roadrunner6224]

@Albert Fels except France has no stake in the Eurofighter.

[@comsubpac]

@Albert Fels They don't though. Germany and France both own 10,9 % of the shares.

[@vargapa101]

I love how Europeans call it the Eurofighter and Brits call it Typhoon 😀

[@anngard2558]

It's still the eurofighter, but it's called typhoon because of its legacy within th R.A.F. for over 100 years of royal air force, next will be called tempest as that comes next historically.

[@viper2148]

Tourist: Lovely German Shepherd you have there. Brit: Excuse me! Were you referring to my Alsatian?

[@SaorAlba1970]

Britain will soon cease to exist and it's the English that call them Typhoons because they are stuck in the 1940s ... Scotland's place is in the EU and not the vile and corrupt UK

[@Christian-mt5jx]

@@viper2148 bruh

[@Christian-mt5jx]

@@SaorAlba1970 bruh

[@mathewkelly9968]

Because Germany is smart and has bought lemons off Lockheed before . Australia has lost billions on the F 35

[@goodputin4324]

Fair dinkum

[@paulslevinsky580]

I was driving on a dirt "two-track" road that ran along a deep ravine in Alberta, near Canada's Cold Lake AFB. Suddenly I heard the roar of a jet and it was baring down fast!!! My eyes scanned the sky but I saw nothing until I looked down. There was the coloured pattern painted on a pilot's helmet as his Tornado fighter streaked within a few feet of the steep grassy bank just below me. He was taking part in a defense exercise called Maple Flag.

[@jamesleaty7308]

Protecting Canada's defense stores of Labats and Maple syrup.

[@paulslevinsky580]

@@jamesleaty7308 ...Crown Royal Canadian whiskey

[@jeg5438]

Dosen't matter what it is. As a Swedish American if they call for help I'll be there.

[@CMB21497]

In the U.S., we call "Passing it along", "Kicking the Can Down the Road".

[@jake3736]

@MrLewisbate why do you have to be like that? If you don't have anything good to say don't say it.

[@fiddledotgoth]

Or passing the buck...

[@lawrenceralph7481]

We call it cowardice.

[@chrismr5851]

Well... this Video aged very well.

[@MrGeoffHilton]

You kept me captivated for 23 mins subscribed. Ps spent 1980s in RAF mostly working with Tornado GM/TFR, its kind of nice that the old kite is still working, it wasn't new back then, probably 15 years old, still I'm sure it has been updated over the last 4 decades.

[@damedusa5107]

Apparently the German tornado fleet is in a right mess, many planes are not air worthy and parts are becoming hard to come by.

[@mattheww.6232]

@@damedusa5107 It's getting to be 50 years old. Continuing to try and use them would be like using bolt actions in a cold war battlefield. It's not a modern weapon.

[@damedusa5107]

@@mattheww.6232 the uk fleet was in good condition even at retirement due to hood maintenance but due to budget issues the Germans haven’t been able to maintain all the fleet as well as they would like. So definitely needs replacement. Would say even now, it’s still an excellent low level bomber as it’s a specialised plane for that role. Multiroles are always compromises.

[@Neilarmeweak550]

I freaking love the 'salesman' scene

[@lordbyron8927]

Lol goes through a British, Irish and weird Canadian accents with a random ya'll 🤣 best part of video.

[@beefgoat80]

He still has that German D in place of the TH sound though. I'm not knocking his content at all. I can't say "boot" without sounding like a Texan, no matter how hard I try. 😂

[@fatdad64able]

@@beefgoat80 *Vot* !?? Zis is pörfeckt englisch by Bismarck.

[@beefgoat80]

@@fatdad64able the umlaut is the cherry on top haha

[@flanker93rus74]

@@beefgoat80 😂👍🏻

[@bret9741]

It was simply a political decision. Germans don’t want to buy an American made fighter that might cost more Euro fighter builds and possibly slow a future Airbus sixth gen fighter.

[@innocento.1552]

More than just political, it is also economic and common sensical. I would rather spend more in building my own factory than buying from a neighbour (if I can afford it)

[@cheveuxjaunes2782]

you will be careful airbus is on the scaf but it is dassault the prime contractor

[@AsbestosMuffins]

on the f35's price, it also depends highly on what variant you buy, like the standard A non-VTOL or STOL one is from what I understand, quite cheaper than the more exotic ones

[@johnabuick]

Airforce F-35A is the cheapest, then the Navy F-35C is next and the Marines F-35B is the most expensive.

[@josepetersen7112]

Yes. The A model has a fly a way cost of less then 85 million, about 20 million less then the Eurofighter, and is still dropping. The only real issue is cost per flight hour being about double that of the F16. That is going down, though.

[@spartanx9293]

@@johnabuick Germany would have no use for the c or b versions they don't have carriers

[@jasonpeacock9735]

@@spartanx9293 Singapore has no carriers, but ordered B models

[@spartanx9293]

@@jasonpeacock9735 It saves space for Singapore they don't have a whole lot of land

[@landoremick7422]

If you build and buy products made in your own country, you keep the taxes from all the transactions and wages, etc. So then unit cost is less overall

[@james3414]

ever seen anything marked "Made in China"

[@endjfcar]

And you don't have to ask Lockheed every fcking time for regular or even minor maitenance....

[@googleenshitified]

Or your R&D costs and capabilities will make the product worse but much more expensive than a foreign product made in high numbers by highly experienced companies. This mercantilistic approach in a globalized economy seems implausible.

[@panan7777]

First you have to KNOW, HOW to build it.

[@fuzzzeballs]

@@james3414 it's just a numbers game most of the things that say made in c being not China are in fact designed in hand still made in china, USA is losing it's grip and China winning face the fact

[@ericduchesne807]

Here in Canada it was explained to me: All the countries which do not embark on the original program will have to pay a lot more for the purchase of an F35 aircraft. Here are the eight international program partners - the US, UK, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Denmark and Canada

[@achristian7015]

Other than the few that want new toys at DND, I'd sooner have my tax dollars spent on things that make a real difference to its citizens; heath care and our infrastructure. And this coming from a past flight instructor and one that went to the EAA in Oshkosh often.

[@12floz67]

@@achristian7015 What?? A government’s first priority is to protect the nation not free health care. I think we need a bigger military budget and a whole lot less social programs.

[@achristian7015]

@@12floz67 What??? Did you poll everybody to ask?

[@achristian7015]

@@12floz67 Protect the nation from what? I guess one would have to when you have your nose stuck in everybody elses business. Hell, the US has been in a war or conflict for 92% of their existance. You'd think they would be good at it (Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, etc.) But it is big business and as long as you can brain wash the masses you can continue selling them on the idea. By the way what happened to those "imaginary" Weapons of Mass Destruction that Americans were sold on? Never did find them.

[@sexysilversurfer]

Apart from Israel!!

[@adimo6673]

"BERLIN, March 14 (2022) - Germany will buy 35 U.S. F-35 fighter jets to replace its ageing Tornado" (Reuters)

[@colbunkmust]

AirModels needs to make a Catalina model for the bathtub.

[@MilitaryAviationHistory]

I think they have one :)

[@h.cedric8157]

@@MilitaryAviationHistory But does it float? 😉

[@kineticdeath]

@@h.cedric8157 im guessing the next obvious follow up is "will it blend?". Seriously though them AirModels look real nice. I'm going to start early dropping subtle hints to friends/family for my birthday, which isnt untill october. Some of those Su-27 variant models look real nice especially

[@h.cedric8157]

@@kineticdeath Hahahaha blending a scale model and being asked to rebuild it is a devil's idea of punishing a model maker! Speaking of flankers, once i have funds, i'll build a scale model of the Ace Combat 7 protagonist Mihaly Shilage's Su30SM "Red 09" of the Erusian Air Force EASA test team.

[@spindash64]

If I were rich I would totally make that a toyline. Maybe some torpedo poolgliders too

[@hurrdurr3615]

One big argument against the F35 is that you want to create know-how domestically. Just as important as having equipment is the ability to make it yourself.

[@barthoving2053]

F35 is already built by an international effort. But most of those countries were already partners in the development of the plane. Still some deal for production of parts or even license building could possible. Dutch had Fokker built F-16s for it's airforce and several Dutch companies produce some parts for the F35. A solution like this would of course also come with a price tag, as it would means buying out existing contracts. And an domestic upgrade program for the F35 could be set-up.

[@AKUJIVALDO]

Why Germany should spend money on shity F-35? It is overpriced crap.

[@e.l.norton]

@@AKUJIVALDO To call it "crap" is utter ignorance. However, the program has cost FAR too much. I'm not a fan of the F-35. But, it does do things and has capabilities unheard of. The problem is what it DOESN'T do, which is much of how it was originally sold as being capable of. Too many compromises had to be made in deference to the "one tool for every job" philosophy.

[@certaindeath7776]

its not really about domestical, but about EU. we have agreements in EU, germany is influencing eu partners towards a eu military, and thats the way to go, and one way to go there is to have a strong and interwebbed EU defense industry, and there are a lot of agreements already made. and f35 is not that good anyway. its stealth capabilities are rapidly demolished by physical facts, you cant stealth yourself against all types of radiations, f35 can be locked on 70+km away with modern IR tracking, and that with a passive sensor, also modern radars make stealth more and more inefficient. at the end you have a plane that is slower and can carry less load to be stealthy, or you put load under the wings and shit on your expensive to maintain stealth, but then you git the worse performing plane, which is bad, when your not stealth anymore.

[@farzana6676]

@@AKUJIVALDO F35 is the most capable platform in the world today. You have no clue what you're talking about.

[@badweetabix]

For myself, the question I ask is why anyone wants the F-35. The US wants it because they have sunk $1.6 trillion USD into it and have no other choice because they cancelled all the other replacement aircrafts projects before they even began testing the F-35. For the US, it is either the F-35 or nothing. The F-35 is not the wonder weapon that is often touted. It does not have the range of any current or even past fighter-bomber that it replaces nor does it have even the payload capacity of the old A-6 Intruder that can carry over 18,000 pounds and costs less than half that of a F-35. The only thing the F-35 have that is of any advantage is its stealth capability which even so is only effective against radar and not infrared sensors including IRST (infrared search and tracking) systems that is on practically every modern fighter and in particular Russian MIGs. For the cost of what they wasted on the F-35, they could had the next generation of A-6, F-18, Harriers, or more F-22s although that is now impossible because the production line for the F-22 was shutdown back in 2011 with no means to re-constitute it leaving the US with only187 operational F-22s. Germany needs to avoid the F-35 and either buy something else or begin domestic research and production even if it takes another 20 years because US aviation has lost its way. And this is coming from an American.

[@abriannaaguilera2123]

The F-35 has become the M16 of warplanes, but I don't think the F-35 will get a chance at getting better and redeem itself like the M16 since even in paper is worse than legacy warplanes.

[@subashchandra9557]

As of Dec 2022, Germany has bought $8 Billion worth of F-35s.

[@mudgem3742]

The issue may have been created in part to the US effectively providing defense in country to Germany for so many years.

[@johnny5wd567]

..and reaped the benefits of U.S.-controlle defense and U.S.-controlle German intelligence agencies in and Germany's strategic location in return.

[@comradecosmonaut7746]

Ah yes "defence" using our nation as little more than the playground for their wargames and the location for when the cold war went hot is so much "defence" being provided. Is occupying oh sorry I mean "leasing" airbase defence aswell? The issue isn't here because the yanks station their unruly knuckle heads here and are "defending" us. it's because we're a demilitarised nation, you know like everyone wanted us to be after WW2, with no close enemies and an army that is by international law limited to a laughable number that doesn't even justify the upkeep.

[@james3414]

@@comradecosmonaut7746 if I were Germany I would buy the smallest amount of the cheapest/ugliest plane that filled my minimum treaty responsibilities. There is zero chance of Germany entering even a limited conflict against anyone that would necessitate 6th generation fighter tech. They would just wait for the US to take care of anything. Also the US needs those bases in Germany because thats the closet hop from Afghanistan for critically injured soldiers. Its not to defend you at all, thats silly. So thanks I guess, less Americans die because of your support.

[@mudgem3742]

@@comradecosmonaut7746 you not speaking Russian right now would be a benefit....

[@bigyokes4747]

@@mudgem3742 East germany was a soviet puppet but they don’t speak russian now. Magnitudes more people in Germany can speak english than Russian. Is there a tragedy in that?

[@ianlawrence1832]

The fourth competitor is a heavily upgraded, jet-powered ME 109. The old warbird will have a new lease of life!

[@vermas4654]

Would probably still be a better experience than the F-104 was

[@ChrisK312]

It might not do well in combat, but it will be looking fabolous

[@marcusmaddenov2451]

The ME 262 would be a better choice

[@vermas4654]

@@marcusmaddenov2451 let's make a Me 363

[@niggacockball7995]

@@vermas4654 me 464 when???

[@berndberndsen5680]

Why would they spend money on F-35 when they have plenty of non-functional aircraft already?

[@brandonstrife9738]

Thats why it keeps winning fly offs. How many countries has had them at this point.

[@aussiemilitant4486]

@@brandonstrife9738 people still informing themselves with articles from 10+years ago, end up looking like backwards arseholes when they parrot information that has been factually wrong for a decade. You cant win mate, they get info from the clickbait news cycles and not from people within the industry.

[@softairsan]

well this video aged very poorly

[@ericfrazier7766]

Very informative analysis. Whatever decision that the German government and people make regarding military procurement and engagement with its allies, I hope it will take into consideration a long-term view of military affairs, history, and will serve to deter future wars.

[@Farweasel]

Si vis pacem, para bellum - It ain't just Roman, its bloody prudent (If you want Peace prepare for War) Or as Roosevelt put it 'Speak softly and carry a big stick'. There was an excellent song (well maybe not musically but in terms of insight) by the 1960s band Groundhogs 'Thank Christ for the Bomb'. Today there is a major problem that not having grown up under the threat of war, to too many it seems the best way not to get attacked is not to look threatening. The reality is the opposite is true.

[@3isr3g3n]

Okay die "Golf Handicap"-Angabe hat mich aufm falschen Fuss erwischt, gut gemacht EDIT: "Stammtisch-Chairman", ich lach mich tot, richtig nice

[@rodrigodepierola]

Bismark doing a German accent is fantastic.

[@kentvesser9484]

Yeah, you would almost think he is German...lol.

[@rodrigodepierola]

@@kentvesser9484 His fake, exaggerated one was sublime

[@spanpt]

Great commentary-thanks so much Chris!

[@anpan6282]

Great job explaining the situation especially from the Germany perspective. Would love to see a “what if” scenario of going with an All-Eurofighter solution. What it would take, how long.

[@renngretsch]

13:50 14:24 Lumping Trump in with the warmongering other presidents (and vice president) of this century seems unfair.

[@lukStSerb]

@@renngretsch ..13:22 it wasn't Trump the muppet _"president"_ of the US warmongering regime back in 2001-2009 and 2009-2017, now was he? *Polls: US Is The Greatest Threat To The World Peace*

[@yia01]

it take the US and it ally decades to make teh F35 platform what it is. if Germany want to turn teh Eurofighter into it own version of f35, should take just as long too. then since they are at the drawing board, might aswell upgrade it frame to make it more stealthy, upgrade it computer and so forth, by the time they finish, it will be decades later and teh tech will be outdate. IMO will be cheaper to just buy the f35 and use its flatform and stealth as a jump start for Germany to make a domestic 6th gen flatform. at their point, trying to figure out 5th gen tech from scratch will just put german behind and trying to catchup.

[@tomx641]

@@yia01 A| stealth 6th gen Typhoon is basically just BAE Tempest. BAE should be able to produce such a jet with few problems even today, the only technical challenge I see is the variable cycle engine.

[@ottifant64]

@@renngretsch He just spent his entire presidency trying to bait the Iranian government into declaring war.

[@StephenColbert27]

Your American salesman impression is easily the best part of this great video

[@Digmen1]

Did you offer any girls to the purchasing guy, or some whiskey?

[@lesterscates774]

He needed a skinny tie and dark glasses.😆

[@JoeOvercoat]

Needs to work on his unseemliness. Cut to 20:43 for the real deal....

[@hlynnkeith9334]

Chris, Love Thorsten Klüftmann! A German portraying a German speaking English with a stereotypical German accent! Kudos.

[@paavobergmann4920]

Yep. For me as a german, that was second only to Helmut Qualtinger impersonating a german salesman in his 1960 skit "Austria´s future", and almost on the same level of disturbing.

[@cyborgbadger1015]

Adolf Galland: I would like a squadron of Spitfires! Molders: erm.. what about this new F35? AG: I said Spitfies!

[@dallesamllhals9161]

Mölders? You sure? The BF-109 is/was way better against heavy bombers ;-P

[@DominicAmann]

Amazing how parallel this problem is to the Canadian procurement question(s).

[@geraldmartin9792]

Was thinking exactly the same thing!

[@deggs1975]

Yes. Very similar, the only difference is Germany is actually being proactive and planning for its future, while still having some life left in their aircraft..Canada on the other hand is way behind replacing its hornets so much so we are buying junk hornets from Australia just to keep them in the air. Bloody shameful.

[@DrRussian]

@@deggs1975 The difference being that Canada can almost guarantee the U.S. isn't going to let them be invaded, as that would put a potential enemy at their doorstep. Germany doesn't get that luxury.

[@hoodedmirror1051]

@@DrRussian Yeah, geography wise, Canada is one of the safest countries in the world.

[@patrickbeersingh9107]

What does Canada and Germany have in common? Both got fat, selfish and soft because of American protection and generosity. You better wish a China do not rise to dominate the world, or you would both be on your knees, sucking ....

[@mensen4488]

you, together with Millennium 7* are so delightfully thorough, objective and insightful. Thank you for this!

[@KitKabinet]

Thanks for mentioning Millennium 7*. I didn't know his channel and I'm checking it now. Another treasure trove of great content!

[@MattCellaneous]

@@KitKabinet yes it is a treasure trove of great content. And another treasure trove of great accents!

[@dotancohen]

Another good reason for not fielding the F-35 is that many NATO nations already field it. If that adversary in the east discovers a weakness in the F-35, such as a way to disable it electronically (actually feasible with the F-35) then it would be good for NATO to have a diverse fleet. Monocultures in organisms, software, or hardware are vulnerable.

[@guitarista666]

But how hard would it be to fix such a weakness as you mention? It's as if you are saying no country should settle on a fighter model because there might be a vulnerability. This just doesn't seem reasonable to me in the real world where compromises have to be made.

[@dotancohen]

@@guitarista666 I'm saying that forces should use diverse aircraft, and not settle on a single model. Thus, as NATO already has a large complement of F-35 aircraft, other NATO members upgrading their fleets should diversify and field a different aircraft.

[@mr.duckplucker5353]

Germany has plans to unveil an😁 updated version of the ME262.

[@laisphinto6372]

ham wa da

[@Citadin]

Why no Rafale as a good replacement? I guess for the same reason the FRG brought F104s instead of Mirages...

[@anderslindstrom2336]

The Rafale really doesn't do anything better in the roles Germany needs performed than the Eurofighter does. It'd have the exact same problem of requiring special, one off variants that would likely cost a fortune to develop.

[@Citadin]

@@anderslindstrom2336 what exactly are those German fighter roles, and how do they differ from French roles? It looks like EU countries like Denmark Poland Belgium Italy are paying close to twice as much per plane for a lemon like the F35, in the $150 million range, than the price of a Rafale. There are a lot of similarities with the purchasing pattern in the 1960s when countries like Germany and Italy were coerced into buying a terrible American fighter, the F104 Starfighter, instead of the clearly superior French Mirage, for political reasons. Today the political dynamics are similar.

[@anderslindstrom2336]

@@Citadin Those roles are the ones described during the entire video. The Rafale would make the least sense of any possible option. Is is A: Not certified to carry American nuclear ordnance, and B: does not come in an electronic warfare variant. The Rafale would have to be certified, and a one off version for EW would need to be made, just like the Eurofighter. The Rafale has all of the political cons of using the F35, and all of the costly nuclear certifications and development of an EW variant of the Eurofighter, all wrapped up into one package. If they buy the F35, they get a plane that mostly meets their mission requirements already. If they buy the Eurofighter, they support their own defense industry. If they buy the Rafale, they get neither.

[@jthunders]

Sounds like if France offered their nuclear package along with it it would work

[@andersbergquist]

Why does Germany not consider Saab 39E Gripen? Or Rafael? They are now in the finish procurement together with Eurofighter and the US fighters.

[@jurianvanderknaap]

Exactly, far cheaper, far shorter time between missions, actually works, european made and apart from stealth, simply superior.

[@Markus-zb5zd]

germany is looking for a strike aircraft that can perform the SEAD role as well,... not a fighter/interceptor oh and they are looking for a certified nuke-carrier...

[@xanten69]

It took us (the Dutch) 20 years of debating to finally decide to go for the F35. Future will tell if that was a wise thing to do, but at least ... the Dutch airforce has a future (proof solution).

[@zJoriz]

Don't hear much about our air force's new toys, except that pilots were happy with it and it performed well in international mock scenarios. Which might be a problem in and of itself for Germany: the more countries have 5th gen fighters, the larger the potential threat to other countries, who will need something to counter those fighters. And when Russia and China get theirs, the same thing comes around for us again. It may not be a breakneck arms race like it was half a century ago, but from where I'm sitting it still looks like an arms race.

[@SithLord2066]

Dutch F35 might be future proof, but is it foam-proof?

[@Lary-xg2un]

@@zJoriz we ARE right now in a new big Arms race/Cold war. its not that big like 40 years ago were the World literally was split in 2 halfs but we are in a new Cold war

[@hjalmar4565]

@@SithLord2066 A Dutch test did prove they are indeed foam-proof! ;)

[@goodputin4324]

Nah you Dutch are pro US. All US products

[@calcrappie8507]

Pilots absolutely love the F-35. They get to come home in one piece. Enemy pilots are the ones not coming home. Having F-35's gives major pause to ANY enemy considering an invasion.

[@duncanidaho2097]

Thanks for the analysis of the German situation.. very informative.

[@mattbullman35]

I wish you could do more of these types of videos for other modern military aviation subjects, they are so informative

[@JoeOvercoat]

Ha! I was wishing this dude was American so he would deconstruct the whack stuff we do. Just a thought: start with America’s icebreaker story. It’s a heartbreaker.

[@MrTveiga]

Germany seems very happy to let it's allies pay for it all. It's no good having a strike craft that can't join stealthy allies and will be targeted by anti-air by over the horizon missiles.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

Germany needs to make its army better first and foremost. allied air power can get to eastern europe quick, but land forces are slower, Germany are right behind the front lines of Russia' expansionism

[@sjsjsjsjsbagahlwmdbxhamansksms]

Germany is very much capable of defending itself and you shouldn't consider us your "ally" when it comes to anything that isn't directly a threat to our safety.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

re you advocating an isolationist, insulr Germany that wouldnt come to eatsern europe's aid? Also, you literally are our allies, treaty allies in fact. The UK is committed to coming to Germany's aid in the event it is attacked, as you are obliged to help us and probably more likely the Nato baltic states. Strategically, you ought to be posturing to defend Ukraine as well. Or is it all take and no give with modern Germnay?

[@sjsjsjsjsbagahlwmdbxhamansksms]

@@internetenjoyer1044 I advocate for our armed forces being used for their intended purpose. Our constitution is very clear on this purpose and NATO-membership and military adventurism abroad are in clear violation of our constitution. Legal objections beside it's very naive to believe that Germany and many other treaty partners would commit to a meanigfull response in the event of russian aggression in Ukraine or the Baltic states.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

@@sjsjsjsjsbagahlwmdbxhamansksms From very quick research, it seems like Germnay can, with Parliamentary consent, engage in nato and UN military actions due to a 1994 amendment to the constitution. If you guys want ot abdicate the responsibility thats fine but it's a bit silly considering a Russian controlled eastern europe is an existential threat to Germany

[@scottydye3304]

“Sticks to its guns” Excellent English idiom usage.

[@nil981]

The luftwaffle could resurrect willy messerschmitt to help them design a suitable replacement.

[@vermas4654]

Sounds like the best possible solution

[@CallsignEskimo-l3o]

Given they might be working with Lockheed, perhaps they could resurrect Kelly Johnson as well. Imagine that, a Messerschmitt/Johnson collaboration.

[@jolldoes1515]

And don’t forget to bring Goering back ! 😂 lol

[@vermas4654]

@@jolldoes1515 oh hell no, the Luftwaffe has enough problems as is

[@mustafehusen8693]

Too late Americans stole it after WW2

[@MickAngelhere]

The F35 had been nearly thirty years in the making with many different parts built in different countries

[@turkey0165]

Yeah the U.S. defense industry of the United States wants the rest of the world to pay or Subsidize it’s Next fighter! What if NATO and the rest of the world says we don’t want it we’re not gonna pay for it? Where does that put the United States defense industry?

[@MickAngelhere]

@@turkey0165 it’ll put it in a bit of a quandary. The reason I know why it took so long is because a couple of mates of mine were working on different parts of the aircraft in the UK . The Australian Federal Government put in an order for twelve diesel submarines a few years ago at a huge cost that by the time we get them they’ll be obsolete but the French company that got the contract will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[@eleventy-seven]

Study by Rand called it double or even triple deficient. Imagine having to take your car to the dealer every time you go to the corner store. That's how maintenance intensive the F35 is. You could not keep enough in the air to maintain a fighting force anyway.

[@plightfoot8491]

Oh so many engineers on these sights and they are all top of there class kinda like Bidumb

[@MickAngelhere]

@@plightfoot8491 the problem isn’t the engineers , it’s mainly the politicians , for when the Collins class subs were being built the then defence minister changed his mind on the torpedoes for it and the engineers told him that the subs would have to be reconfigured to fit them. The minister still got the larger torpedoes and the subs had to be reconfigured to be able to fit them in and the whole weapons system had to be redone at a huge cost blowout, not to mention a reduced defensive and attack capability.

[@oliverpohl6687]

German armed forces perfect description in one news headline: the Luftwaffe rents helicopter from the ADAC (german automotive club) incl maintenance

[@klssn34]

Entweder bist du Deutsch und weißt evnt. den Hintergrund, falls nicht nutze Google translate und such den wahren Inhalt des artikels

[@WindmillStalker]

"Germany could do more but it doesn't really want to" combined with the image of that dude doing a very half-hearted crawl through the sand is just... *mwah* chef's kiss

[@Foksuh]

We Finns are dealing with the same challenge of finding a replacement and I am very curious about the test results as they're about to start.

[@paul8158]

Concerning F 3S, check "two birds hitting F 35 over Syria"

[@paulliu5176]

I love your salesman role play!

[@_ace_defective_]

Great video. There's so much more nuance and political context that I wasn't aware of before, it's a very interesting topic for sure.

[@RM-el3gw]

Now release a new video. "Why Germany buys the F-35"

[@MichaelLehnGermany]

He did