Why I don't think Jazz is Black Music

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Over 200 comments on a video no one has seen! I feel like pulling it now but I won't as I will get accused of some bad thing or other. But incredible how people can comment on something they have not seen. It is almost like they are pre judging it. There is a word for doing that........

[@PaulMcEvoyGuitars]

I don't necessarily need to watch a whole video on holocaust denialism to know that it's fucking stupid. Similar here.

[@narosgmbh5916]

Be happy In the KZbin economy this is a big one. A channel that manages to have more commenrs before the video is broadcast than the video will then have views is at the forefront of the algo. Speaking of statistics: From and with the 10. Census (1880)of the United States Census Bureau, Americans were recorded with 5 races: White Black Mulatto Chinese Indian(indigenous) You can assume that over 90% of those who practiced what was later labeled as horrible Negro music got the black mark. Speaking of race and statistics To this days, Americans are divided by race in the census. (Now race is no longer a biological characteristic, but rather a characteristic of origin)

[@richardthurston2171]

“Over 200 comments on a video on one has seen!” Well over half are yours.

[@narosgmbh5916]

​@@richardthurston2171 What strategy is needed for an announcement image to get 100mio clicks? Maybe just: WARNING WARNING WARNING I will delete the announced video when the announcment is clicked on 100mio times. For this you probably have to be Mr.Beast Back to the music: Do you know the Molly Miller Trio?

[@richardthurston2171]

@@narosgmbh5916 Yes. Haven’t seen her live but I like what I’ve heard. Caught Julian Lage last week at Big Ears. Mark Ribot was there as well. And Lionel Loueke.

[@Leo_ofRedKeep]

I quickly went trough a couple of Jazz samplers and can confirm it sounds nothing like Black Metal.

[@Hismana-oi4yx]

So you admit there was a black metal before the counterfit european one right

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

This comment. more than any shows how stupid all this is...

[@Hismana-oi4yx]

​@AndyEdwardsDrummer no different then this comment Solomon 1:5 “I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.” Jeremiah 14:2 “Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish; they are black unto the ground; and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up.”

[@Hismana-oi4yx]

​@AndyEdwardsDrummer how does it feel to have never created anything. To have to go out your way to lie in order to obtain some insignificance

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Only geniuses like these create things. Yes..WE have not... "Jazz is the embodiment of the American Ideal spawned by various ethnic cultures given any opportunity for expression in America. Jazz is a vigorously hybrid product which is All American. Therefore great care should be taken not to synonymize Negro and Jazz and not to depict Jazz as a Negro product." Sonny Rollins “In those days, there were supposedly hip guys who really were squares, pseudo hip cats. How do you distinguish between the pseudo and the truly hip? Well, first, a really hip guy wouldn’t have any racial prejudice, one way or another, because he would know the hip way to live is with your brother” Dizzy Gillespie Jazz is known all over the world as an American musical art form and that's it. No America, no jazz. I've seen people try to connect it to other countries, for instance to Africa, but it doesn't have a damn thing to do with Africa. Art Blakey

[@theafroalien3169]

The concept of Kung Fu being rooted with Chinese people and their culture doesn’t diminish its impact or ability to impact other ethnic groups and cultures around the world … same applies to Jazz and it’s Black origins

[@AKiEM.]

Kung Fu also has influences and roots external to China… So maybe Andy thinks ‘Kung Fu is Chinese’ should not be said.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Black people developed Kung Fu including my friend Ron Hall. And racism took away Ron's legacy to some extent. Claiming anything racially is wrong, and in the case of Jazz inaccurate

[@ShaktaWizard]

​@@AndyEdwardsDrummerit's not about race. It's about lineage and culture.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@ShaktaWizard What do you mean by lineage? Obviously Jazz went around the world, so there is a culture of British Jazz here. That is meaningless, But i would like to know what you mean by lineage if it is not race.

[@AKiEM.]

"I'm not against the pizza described as Italian, I'm against pizza being described as white." - Andy Edwards Black is not 'the reverse of white'. Black (American) is an ethnic group like Italian (American). Jazz is Black (American) Music

[@matthewoconnell114]

I appreciate this point and it really made a lot of sense to me. Having said that, I want you to realize where I’m coming from (and probably where the vast majority of the world’s population is coming from). I currently live in Japan and the word for black people (regardless of country) is ‘kokujin’, which means ‘black person’. The word for white person is ‘hakujin’, which literally means’ white person’. These are all coming from Chinese characters. So, if 125 million Japanese and 1.5 billion Chinese think of black people as being black skinned and not being associated with a country - and conversely white people being non-country-specific white, then literally a vast majority of the world’s population doesn’t understand the nuance of Black as only apply to “American Blacks”. It’s either an incredibly American-centric bias or a complete failure in branding. But, your point is still a good one.

[@AKiEM.]

@@matthewoconnell114 well it’s necessarily American centric because it’s an American concept. It’s in an American concept. If you (Andy) adopts American music then you might want to understand some of the language that comes with it. It’s not a branding for world wide consumption per se. It came out out of the 1940s or so. Arguing that we (Americans) should not say it is an effort to attack our (Black American) cultural heritage. Anyone hearing the simple explanation of ‘it means Black American’ should be able to just accept the information. It’s not that hard. This is white English hubris to argue that we Americans need change our language to suit anyone else. In particular Black Americans should not have to change anything, it would literally mean changing our name again. Andy is perfectly free to not use the phrase. But this is about much more, hi is willfully ignorant to cause a problem no doubt rooted in some of the his other atrocious claims about Black America.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@AKiEM. There are two issues here that are not being addressed which is the whole point of these videos. Was Jazz created entirely by Black Americans and what do we mean by Black, and what did the originators of Jazz mean? And also is it racist to claim ownership racially of an artform? The former needs actual proof that Black people entirely created Jazz. They didn't. When Jazz was created you could be 1/8th Black and you would be considered Black. Does that affect our understanding of the Black creation story? Secondly if we call say Abstract painting White does this demean abstract art made by Black people, especially when Abstract art was highly influenced by African Art? Can we really respect that influence by calling it White Abstarct Art or does that sound wierd?

[@AKiEM.]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer is it r@cist to say Pizza is Italian American? You think no other type people helped make Pizza? Is it wrong to say Spaghetti is Italian cuisine? Tomatoes came from the new world and noodles came from Asia - so it’s r@thist to say Spaghetti is Italian? Really? No one agrees to that unless they are just attacking Italians because they have some type of personal hang up.

[@AKiEM.]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer you use this quote a lot; “Them Goddam ni@@ers, doin’ this and doin’ that, and givin’ us all a bad name." Who do you think Sydney Bechet was talking about when he said “US”? How about this? “Bechet went so far as to assert: "my grandfather, he was Africa," and to claim that one of the reasons behind his relocation to France in the early 1950s was the proximity of that country to the African continent.”

[@realtimeant]

It is Black Music, other people just added to it. End of story. People have long shown us they care nothing about ethics, so we will not care. It’s fine that people make contributions but that is what happened, they adopted something they love from another culture. But it is…

[@PerseusManchild]

Yes Jazz is NOT Black music however it is 100% African American music. This my be a shock and news to you but African Americans are a separate ethnicity just like Italians or Germans or French people. We have unique and well developed culture and history. The whole Native American connection was simply a disguise because the Native American genetic and cultural contribution has bee proven almost non existent. Your other points a view are simply horribly wrong and perhaps you should reach out to people who have studied African American culture at academic level as I have.

[@realtimeant]

@@PerseusManchild black = African American. That’s what we call ourselves.

[@realtimeant]

@@PerseusManchild I don’t need a scholar on my own history but I appreciate the gesture.

[@PerseusManchild]

My response: It's not racial but it is cultural and ethnicity is why. Jazz is not Black music but it is African American music 100% and African Americans are an ethnic group not a race. You are confused by looking at it racially when African Americans are very different ethnicity and are responsible for the development of many art forms (Jazz, Country, Blues, Gospel, Rock N Roll, R&B, Soul, Disco, Funk, House and Hip Hop etc). One of the key aesthetics of African American culture is our ability and acceptance of improvisation and this is what separates us. Other cultures hold on to traditions in such a way that they become static however in African American culture change is the only constant. Jazz could only have been developed by African Americans because of our willingness and ability to improvise. Jazz music is possible because of the unique culture of African Americans. If jazz is not African American music then Mariachi music is not Mexican.

[@realtimeant]

@@PerseusManchild black = African American. It is black peoples music. I am not confused at all. Like not in the slightest. You are the one that is confused

[@N1CK_B]

White jazz musician here. Obviously this is a controversial assertion you’re making. I can see that you’re aware of that and perhaps you’ll get more views making a controversial video. Given the sensitive nature of the subject and the blood, sweat, tears, racism, oppression, theft and underpayment that black artists have suffered to develop and perform the music we all love. perhaps it might be appropriate to make a video basically saying “with all my heart thank to all the black pioneers who gave us the most precious art form” and not nit pick who started what?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Have you watched my channel? I have done this repeatedly. But what about Papa Jack Laine? Lorenzo Tio? Emile "Stalebread Charlie" Lacoume? Nick LaRocca? do they get any credit for also help create Jazz? Why is it no one knows these guys names when they were all working at the same time or pre Buddy Bolden?

[@N1CK_B]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I don’t doubt that there are dozens of unsung heroes of all races in jazz, But the point is that we’re dealing with a sensitive subject here and sensitivity is called for. Jazz, and blues for that matter was born out of a time when black people suffered horrific treatment at the hands of white people, and the fact that stalebread Charlie or Bill Evans have contributed to jazz development is not the point. Black people were dragged to America as slaves by white people, not really that long before jazz was born. Our white ancestors did that. it’s in bad taste to say that white people are partly responsible for the birth of jazz, when white people were the very reason that black musicians had Blues to express in the first place. And to this day, white people still have the highest privileges, The most money and power etc. So I think while there isn’t equality between white and black people there’s still amends to make.

[@ulfingvar1]

Louise Armstrong said it best: there are only two types of music, good and bad.

You have no idea how much of a vacuum there is for this sort of intellectual honesty.

[@VereinPlatzhirschamHirschenpla]

It's an art form. Period. I don't care if Buddy Rich or Billy Cobham plays the drums as long as they master their instrument and have heart and soul in their playing.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I agree wholeheartedly

[@colinburroughs9871]

I feel like that point could have been driven into the ground on this: people who couldn't play the kazoo, defending the "honor" (or whatever) of whole groups of people through genera's of music.. while exposing that they have less than zero idea what motivates artists. It only makes sense as a power play, because artistically, it's silly.

[@robertreed9818]

@@colinburroughs9871 Musical genres are vestiges of culture born of shared history and experience. Maybe these people are not defending any individual's honor but are safeguarding their history and their rights to claim certain cultural outputs. The power play is not in their being defensive against groups who have proven theft before, but those who feel they have the right to steal the history and cultural product and claim it as universal.

[@colinburroughs9871]

@@robertreed9818 Or, Jazz hasn't been relevant in the mainstream or to black culture in 40 odd years, so CRT apologists coming back around to making this an issue, in confluence with whom it's all of the sudden important to reinforces my original point.

[@robertreed9818]

​@@colinburroughs9871 Classical music is about as niche and relevant as Jazz but does that make it any less a European cultural artifact? This only became a problem when people started trying to decenter Black Americans from their own cultural product, the popularity of said product notwithstanding. I would expect the anti-woke 100 to understand that.

[@oolongoolong789]

Andy, a bold video, well done! Thoughtfully argued and well-structured. The minstrelsy argument is not one I've encountered before.

[@Hismana-oi4yx]

A well crafted lie

[@edwardyazinski3858]

If I heard you right, you tied much in America to Minstrelsy? May have to listen again. But if so that would be a very large overstatement. As are some of the other comments on kin/kindness allowing America’s dominance. The melting pot theory as it were. Certainly a part no doubt. But just a part, geographical isolation played a very large role during times of world wars and coming out unscathed. And obviously our political system and the later effects of the industrial revolution added tremendously to the postwar boom. So that instead of nation rebuilding we were growing a nation and setting the example worldwide.

[@darrylculbertson8313]

Y'all want to tell yourselves anything to DISCREDIT black music. It is a music genre originated in New Orleans, created by/ predominantly played by black musicians. Rock and Roll was invented by Afro Americans, just like Country, DOO-WOP, R&B, NEW JACK SWING, Soul, Neo-Soul, HIP-HOP, Funk , and Blues. Just stop it....I have no issue with white people playing jazz, but don't have the unmitigated gall to say it isn't a black music. We make BEAUTIFUL MUSIC

[@ronaldlivington137]

Facts!! 👍🏾

[@darrylculbertson8313]

@@freddieblue6351 right! I'm a musician /R&B vocalist and I've studied all the genres of black music....Like I said, I have no issue with other races playing jazz but it's dudes like him that make up lies because DEEP DOWN they HATE that a BLACK PERSON CREATED IT....I DONT RESPECT IT! and they have people in power JUST LIKE HIM !

[@JB-ti7bl]

All modern music is cross-pollinated. Where did Quincy Jones go to learn theory? Paris, France. Where did Miles Davis get his modal idea from? European church music. Who wrote Louis Armstrong's biggest hit (Hello Dolly)? Jerry Herman. Who invented the valve trumpet, harmonica, trombone, sax and piano - the instruments of jazz - Europeans. Why so possessive?

[@darrylculbertson8313]

@@JB-ti7bl we are not talking about who invented the INSTRUMENTS. An instrument is a TOOL.... Without a person, it is meaningless. WE ARE talking about genres of music... In which comes from the minds/creativity of people. Why does it hurt y'all so much to admit that your favorite genres of music were created by black people ?? Lol

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Who is 'y'all'? All white people?...sick of this. I have 1/2 million views a month on a channel that celebrates the achievements of Black Americans, that historically explains how they created Jazz and Blues. Perhaps I have celebrated this more than you? But are happy to discredit me based upon an assumption, and it is that the 'predominantly' actually has a meaning...other minority, persecuted races were involved in the creation of Jazz, and yet you want to discredit that by claiming it as 'Black Music'. Let me tell you something. No other race calls any music by their skin colour. You have been duped by the white man into calling it Black Music. And I don't care if you have an issue or not, you get no special moral position because your skin colour is similar to genius Black musicians. And don't shout at me about culture either. Your culture is as different to Sidney Bechet's as mine is.

[@truthsaviour8804]

This is a troublesome video. Color blindness in the world we live in would be a wonderful thing if its intentions are to lift everyone up. Sir, you are using color blindness in a way to strip the role that black americans played in creating this genre of music. If you could honestly say that jazz would have been created without black americans, i might concede to your point of view. While it may be true that jazz is an assortment of different musical influences, it was black americans who married these influences to create this genre we call jazz. There isn't a particular melody that could be characterized as a jazz melody. Jazz is an application of certain rhythms and expressions to an assortment of melodies. It was the black musicians that created these expressions and cadences. No other culture or group can refute that reality. The problem with your argument is, you believe everyone should get a trophy. No one should be declared the victor. Its funny that sentiment is only expressed when it comes to black american music. We are the only group that can't lay claim to any music that was created in the America. Others use the same argument when discussing blues, gospel, rock and roll, funk and soul. Where is this sentiment really coming from. Inquiring minds want to know.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Classical music could not have been made without white, but it is not white music, That would be exclusive and territorial. And racist towards other non white races. If that is the case we can apply Kant's categorical imperative. Unless you think racism is bad only when it's done to Blacks?

[@truthsaviour8804]

@AndyEdwardsDrummer of course, classical music is music created by Europeans. That doesn't mean other races can't enjoy the music. Acknowledging someone race as it relates to their achievements doesn't make me racist. Your analysis on this topic would suggest that all music genres associated with black Americans are subjected to the same scrutiny you are outlining in your video. You are being racist when you attempt to remove a people from their accomplishments in order to establish a color blind society.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

You do realise you contradict yourself in this comment? You changed my challenge from Classical music is white by saying it is European, then say that that geographical categorisation does not exclude othere races. You know that to claim classical music or anything else as white is racist. then you claim that when it comes to Black people we must do the opposite. This to me is racist. Calling Jazz music to me smacks of racism. Thats my opinion. It runs counter to the identity ideologues. Now in terms of achievements, those are achieved by individuals. But lets do things your way...The laws of Physics...WHITE! The Theory evolution WHITE! The Theory of relativity WHITE! Democracy WHITE! Abolishing slavery WHITE! The industrial revolution WHITE! Computer technology WHITE...makes the achievements of Blacks look not so good now! But I think doing this is wrong. Racial pride in the achievements of individuals who happen to be a certain race is ugly and racist IMO.

[@truthsaviour8804]

@AndyEdwardsDrummer I did not contradict myself. Classical music was created by white people in Europe. To acknowledge that doesn't make me racist. It sounds ridiculous to me that you would insist that acknowledging another race's accomplishments is racist. That sounds so backward. There is a reason why jazz surfaced a decade or two after the civil war. Black people were free to explore musical ideas and instruments that were previously challenging for them; slavery being a huge obstacle. White people had a music culture and access to these instruments for centuries and yet did not produce anything that sounded like jazz. Maybe you have an answer for that. You are truly showing your immaturity in this conversation by wanting to engage in the "Achievement Olympics " I thought this conversation was about jazz and its origins. By your logic, shouldn't we give the child laborers in africa who are mining all those metals and minerals credit for the creation of things that you cite are a part of white achievement? After all , it were not for them, those items that you cite would not be possible. Your logic is very twisted. I would never deny a person accomplishments if they are deserving of the credit. It's apparent to me that you are willing to do that.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Firstly, you did not say white people in Europe, you said Europeans. If you think list of all the 'white achievements' is ok, then fine. I think it's horrible. And the reason I made that list (the achievement Olympics) was to show how horrible that is, and your comment about child labourers backs up my point. Now in terms of Jazz history, Black people did not play the dominant role in creating Jazz, American Black people did. Why did Africans not create Jazz. It was created in America by Black Americans, but also by white Americans, Native Americans, french, Italian. It's instrumentation, arrangements, technique is all European. The song form and vocalisation is a fusion of Irish folk music and African music. The rhythms come from marching music and the church. It is the product of America. So I would not call Jazz Black music because a) Black people shouldn't need to point to the individual achievements of Black geniuses in the same way that Mozart's talent has no bearing on my self worth b) No race owns a music style c) No other race claims to own a music style d) it is not descriptive of the creation of Jazz e) In calling it Black you marginalise and contain it.

[@flame-sky7148]

Miles Davis always quoted in saying the best bands are the mix bands. What I liked about the 70s , is that it had a lot of jazz fusion groups that had mix nationalities in the. You take Return to Forever, Weather Report, Mahavishnu ( various incarnations), Tony Williams Lifetime (both versions), Jean Luc Ponty groups, Jan hammer groups, as one can name several more. They were mixed bringing different cultural elements into these musical groups.

[@JB-ti7bl]

Good point. You'd think that if jazz was "black music" then all the greats would've stuck with all black members.

[@robertreed9818]

@@JB-ti7bl That's generally not how it goes in reality. Usually, the music gets coopted and pumped out by more "acceptable" faces, such as what happened with Dionne Warwick or Lil' Richard.

[@CJ-vh2hf]

That was not a good point what does being black music or being created by any race or culture have to do with the members of his band? Stop it. This is just another attempt to diminish the accomplishments of people from the African diaspora, the history channel dedicated a whole programming to ancient aliens, because they don’t believe that people of color can be this progressive and creator, they went so far to say that aliens had to help them ! Don’t you understand this is a colonizers ideology to get you to believe let’s just appreciate the music and stop trying to Separate us

[@patrickselden5747]

Nice one, Andy - one of your best videos yet. Keep on keepin' on... ☝️😎

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks, will do!

[@patrickselden5747]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Sha-MONE!!

[@PerseusManchild]

Yes Jazz is NOT Black music however it is 100% African American music. This my be a shock and news to you but African Americans are a separate ethnicity just like Italians or Germans or French people. We have unique and well developed culture and history. The whole Native American connection was simply a disguise because the Native American genetic and cultural contribution has bee proven almost non existent. Your other points a view are simply horribly wrong and perhaps you should reach out to people who have studied African American culture at academic level as I have.

[@PerseusManchild]

It's not racial but it is cultural and ethnicity is why. Jazz is not Black music but it is African American music 100% and African Americans are an ethnic group not a race. You are confused by looking at it racially when African Americans are very different ethnicity and are responsible for the development of many art forms (Jazz, Country, Blues, Gospel, Rock N Roll, R&B, Soul, Disco, Funk, House and Hip Hop etc). One of the key aesthetics of African American culture is our ability and acceptance of improvisation and this is what separates us. Other cultures hold on to traditions in such a way that they become static however in African American culture change is the only constant. Jazz could only have been developed by African Americans because of our willingness and ability to improvise. Jazz music is possible because of the unique culture of African Americans. If jazz is not African American music then Mariachi music is not Mexican.

[@skineyemin4276]

Yeah! Keep on spewing that false, self entitled, Eurocentric bull****!

[@hansmagnusmalcolmsen9354]

I have loved music since as far back as I have memories in life. Tastes has changed somewhat now and then. Musicology will never take away that love. But musicology and history is always interesting. I love your channel.

[@zombieautom]

Hi Andy, You talk about the music i love without boundaries, i've subscribed. Keep on with the great work and consider doing 10 best rock vocalist 😂 im sticking with Ian Gillan

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I might do that, but don't hold out for Gillan in there. Chris Cornell my number 1

[@robertrann8450]

FUNNY HOW HE BRINGS UP MIKES DAVIS SAYING THAT HE DOESN'T LIKE THE LABEL JAZZ. BUT THIS BRITISH MAN. FAILED TO MENTION THAT MILES DAVIS ALSO SAID WHITE MUSICIANS CAINT PLAY JAZZ THEY DON'T HAVE ANY OF THE CULTURAL REFERENCE POINTS TO PRODUCE THE SOUNDS THAT BLACK PEOPLE CREATED IN THIS GENRE

[@rolandowagner7775]

All caps supposed to make you look smarter? "White people can't play jazz"? Let's look at Miles most successful albums, shall we? Birth of Cool: Nearly all songs were written by Gil Evans and Gerry Mulligan, and they played on the songs. King of Blue: Bill Evans played on and wrote some of the songs Sketches of Spain: Gil Evans played on and wrote/ arranged most of the songs Bitches Brew personnel included: Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, David Holland, Harvey Brooks and Zawinul wrote one of the songs In a Silent Way personnel included: Zawinul, Corea, McLaughlin, Holland and Zawinul wrote the title track Boy, if Whites can't play jazz, Davis sure did have a ton of whites on his most successful albums and they sure did write and arrange a lot of his songs, didn't they?

[@HipHopCritique]

You can't be serious. White rock and roll artist made a fortune off of black music during the 50s. Does that mean they were more talented than the Black American musicians?

[@rolandowagner7775]

@@HipHopCritique Trying to figure out the relevance of your comment. Who said white artists are better than black artists?

[@sumtin05698]

@@HipHopCritiquethe fact yall are arguing over this means the world is going to shit… who tf cares ignore those stupid white washed jazz history videos and learn with your ears, what do you hear? I hear a fusion of beautiful things

[@GAK1atatt]

Uninformed click bait.

[@Tellhimhesdead-m1y]

Thank you Andy for leaving this video up. I wasn`t going to watch it but i`m happy i did because as usual for your content it`s about the love and understanding of music and as you know, music is the best. edit. watched to the end and how anyone could criticise you for this is beyond comprehension, transgressing the overton window i presume?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Some people have been ideologically captured and will not listen to any view which sounds heretical to them

[@SkullOfTheAbyss]

Nat Adderlley in his interview with Monk Rowe, affirms your analysis of the African rhythmic influence (or lack of).

[@skineyemin4276]

Nat Adderlly?!? Haha! Yeah, whatever. I can't remember one memorable solo of his. Please. Also, Joe Zawinul said the exact opposite; look that up.

[@deek49]

Another excellent video, Andy. You are a consistently logic-minded thinker. You have integrity and good heart. Thank you for your excellent videos.

[@splankhoon]

The original definition of racism as was taught to me by my philosophy/ethics professor many years ago is as follows: There is only one human race. Different 'races' do not exist only different ethnicities. The term racism is an extension of discrimination. Certain ideological principles - such as seen in Nazi Germany f.i.- convey the notion that there are different races and that people can be categorized as being superior/inferior depending on their race/skin colour/eye colour... Hence the standard racist tropes: black people are lazy and less intelligent, they are inherently more rhythmic because they're closer to their jungle/savage origin, Chinese people are small and docile but very good at mathematics, white people have the ideal body proportions (they come closest to the Greek/Roman resemblance of the perfect man/woman) etc. From there on you build a world view and a society that reflects these differences. Through racist ideology you create far reaching discrimination (if certain people are less intelligent, you shouldn't bother as much with education, for instance). We've seen many horrible examples of this throughout history. It is still a problem today. This to me is the one and true definition of racism: the false idea that different races exist and that they have specific qualities that affect intelligence/morals/etc. Sadly enough this has little to do with people shouting about racism for whatever reason nowadays (I once heard a sixteen year old in my class call somebody a racist just because the other person disagreed with him). Going back to the subject of the video: any form of music, any art form in general is an amalgamation of many, many different influences. There is no point zero. Art is a mongrel. To quote Zappa: "Without deviation from the norm, there is no progress". So people mix and borrow and steal and things grow organically. Every music/art form has its snobbery but that is of course ridiculous. People who love music, love many kinds of music no matter who plays it or who wrote it. Jazz belongs to everybody, so does the Blues or Folk or the sonata form...This whole idea of cultural appropriation for instance is absolutely laughable: Saying Eric Clapton shouldn't have covered 'I shot the sherrif' because he's not a real Jamaican... I don't think Bob would've liked that. Imagine people saying you can't be a surrealist if you're not from Spain or Belgium. In their quest for freeing the world from the shackles of past discrimination, certain people have gone on a witch hunt which in the worst case will end up in total, unworkable absurdity and -oddly enough- totalitarianism. I could go on, but I'll leave it at that. Great video once again, Andy.

[@remyvegamedia]

Absolute bullseye on the definition and functions of racism that make it an issue. It's the fundamental error of the categorization itself that leads to the negative effects, specifically because the categorization is FALSE. When establishing an equation on erroneous variables the outcome is destined to be a faulty and disjunct product.

[@robertreed9818]

What this shows is you're infusing your own personal biases about the subject onto the topic. You absolutely CAN trace back origins of music, maybe not to a specific person, but generally to specific traditions or cultural practices. There is a reason why Andy is trying to drive home the lack of African influence on Jazz. Black Americans were already familiar with complex drum patterns, call-and-response, and history showed they had stringed instruments in which these patterns could be strummed instead of beaten on a drum. There is a reason that other places where Irish indentures, who lived in close proximity to slaves, did not simultaneously produce a divergent music style similar to Jazz.

[@AKiEM.]

Your definition of racism is fine. Black (American) in this context is an ethnicity (not necessarily a race). The problem is that no one seems to have a problem saying pizza is Italian. Every cultural tradition there is can be associated with an ethnic group. Sometimes its necessary name it as in this case considering the circumstances a the time (now too)

[@MrSatampra]

It's a difficult thing to try to see beyond your own biases. Intellectually lazy people tend to not even try. They also tend to vilify those people who do try. Objectivity is a worthy goal. It's what we should all be striving for.

[@robertreed9818]

So, because people disagree, that automatically makes them lazy and unobjective? That sounds like you're trapping people into agreement with you.

[@cbolt4492]

Great video Andy, I thought the apology video was going to be for the Wankenbuger video. I don't feel an apology is necessary for this

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Art would never apologise...

[@SkullOfTheAbyss]

Anthony Braxton has excellent things to say on this topic as well. Great video.

[@brianjones3191]

I love your inquiring and analytical mind! I wish the people accusing you of racism would listen and think, rather than react unthinkingly while on autopilot-they are unrepentant and unreflective sad and angry fools.

[@robertreed9818]

Why do suppose these people have listened and thought? Are you suggesting if they were just open-minded like you, they would come to agree with what he's saying? Is there really no room for disagreement?

[@brandonray4379]

Jazz was created by black Americans. It's pur genre.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Ok...post a link to the evidence. Who and when?

[@brandonray4379]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer the culte was created by black Americans. You're from London, not America. I don't need to post a link when it's obvious.

[@troywest1724]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer😂 For a people that have literally documented that their entire existence is based off of Black Americans since the 1500’s… I wouldn’t have expected you to respond any different. Unfortunately for y’all, that won’t last for much longer. It’s going to be a wild next 20 years.

[@TheRealCompensator]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummerDude, you are comical. "Jazz harmony at its structural and aesthetic level is based predominantly on African matrices,... (Gerhard Kubik, The African Matrix in Jazz Harmonic Practices) Black Music Research Journal Vol. 25, No. 1/2 (Spring - Fall, 2005), pp. 167-222 (56 pages) Published By: Center for Black Music Research "Blues is considered an “American” genre of music but it’s still a historical and cultural continuation of African folk music adapted to a new environment. Therefore, African-American blues is both a foundation of American popular music and, stylistically, part of the larger African cultural family because it is fundamentally an African style of music." [...] That African scale system is the fundamental root of blues music. Nketia also explains the various melodies, rhythms, scale patterns, and notations of indigenous African music. In the chapter on vocal melodies in The Music of Africa, Nketia shows the pentatonic system, which includes a flatted fifth, in an African vocal melody: C-D-E-G-B♭ [pg. 150]. Nketia explains: …instead of a major sixth, a minor seventh is used. That is, instead of C-D-E-G-A, we have C-D-E-G-B♭… this gives a distinctive character to the music. An important feature of melodic organization associated with pentatonic structures is that of transposition, whereby the melody is shifted from one position of a trichord to another. The shift may be a whole step, or as much as two or three steps, up or down. That is, there could be a shift from a G-A-B or E-G-A-B sequence to an F-G-A or D-F-G-A sequence within the same song, or from A-G-F to D’-C-B♭ in the same song” [pg. 150]". (Source: Adam Hudson. Org)

[@TheRealCompensator]

@@troywest1724This guy is absolutely bonkers in the head. Has no clue what he is talking about. He think is all fell from the sky one particular day. 😅

[@CptMark]

Yup. It was mix of influences from the beginnings in the New Orleans but it really blow up in New York. It was a fusion of influences from the start.

[@michaelhogg5498]

Whats happened to your quality microphone. Rode m3 would be nice very clear mic for the money.

[@jaded9234]

I am so glad to hear somebody actually say it. It almost feels like 2010 again, back when we knew a true offense, called out ALL racists, and could immediately address any attempts to divide us. Jazz was formed by some straight up sorcerers with frighteningly epic Classical knowledge that knew how to troll their naysayers by playing 4D chess with the rules.

[@jeroenwarner4834]

I am with you on this ! As a teenager getting into jazz i read diatribes against Stan Getz and Modern Jazz Quartet because they were white guys not "getting it". I inagine they are the same people who objected to Sly & the Family Stone being multiracial and dug Gang Starr's dismissiveness about "Paul Whiteman or any other white man". I am.a white European who has played jazz semi-professionally and other musics with people of all colours, and any of them would tip their hat to a great performance, irrespextive of the pigmentation of the performer. My most heart stopping jazz moment was playing Bluesette, a jazz waltz composed by Belgian harmonica player Toots Thielemans, with Dell Richardson (a lovely singer/guitarist from Antigua best known for The Coffee Song with Osibisa) who had a soulful vocal style and excellent jazz chops. No one can tell me that this Windies-Belgian-Dutch mix wasn't proper jazz!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Toots Thielemans is always proper Jazz!

[@scottphillips1686]

The members of the Modern Jazz Quartet were all black.

[@jeroenwarner4834]

@@scottphillips1686 as are the New Zealand rugby team

[@arpotoo7719]

I suggest you image google "Modern Jazz Quartet".they don't look white to me.

[@redpillras3456]

Jazz is black American music lol Stop the coke and deal with it

[@mattd8725]

The point about minstrels is though provoking. If I am going to do a mocking imitation of twitter users by putting on a big red nose and doing a funny military salute, I first have to convince people that the "red nose authoritarian salute" is typical behaviour of Twitter users, "universal twitter culture".

[@tomhenninger4153]

Well said Andy. Glad you're proud of your heritage. The concept is spot on. Things are never black and white,,, always a shades of grey. hahaha! Thanks for all the research to make this very interesting. Well done!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Things are never Black and white! Love it!!!

[@mikedemike5393]

you mean creole is king?

[@roamakes]

This dude to me represents everything that went south with the preservation and celebration of this unique and distinctive genre, and the artists that revolutionized not only jazz, but commercial music in general

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

No actual evidence to refute my claims, I wonder why?

[@WiebeMusicClass]

Did you comment on the harmonic vocabulary that was borrowed from 19th & 20th century European composers? Debussy, Ravel, Bartok etc. I didn't find anything on that in this video yet.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

especially the beboppers, that this comment obscures that fact the harmonic system of ALL jazz is western.

[@HockeyDudeJames2]

Great point. Ellington took many Of Debussy's ideas, the way he spaced his notes and the Cross- section- voicing compositional style.The Robust rhythms. Even the way he played hitting Sharp notes giving a nuance and texture to the piece! Off of the main template of the way the Piece was constructed..such a piece like Golliwog's Cakewalk or Girl With Flaxen Hair.Or the lovely colorful and timbre sound of Le Mar or Claire Du lune. Listen to The Ellington suites "Queens suite" and surely the composition "Single pedal of a rose"all Debussy, who Ellington studied and incorporated him into his sound. As did his longtime musical partner! Billy Strayhorn. A lot of parralelles there.You can certainly make the same reference with Fletcher Henderson. Raval, Faure,Debussy, Satie, the great French Composers all had their influences on Jazz. Be open minded people.

[@PerseusManchild]

It's not racial but it is cultural and ethnicity is why. Jazz is not Black music but it is African American music 100% and African Americans are an ethnic group not a race. You are confused by looking at it racially when African Americans are very different ethnicity are responsible for the development of many art forms (Jazz, Country, Blues, Gospel, Rock N Roll, R&B, Soul, Disco, Funk, House and Hip Hop etc etc). One of the key aesthetics of African American culture is our ability and acceptance of improvisation and this is what separates us. Other cultures hold on to traditions in such a way that they become static however in African American culture change is the only constant. Jazz could only have been developed by African Americans because of our willingness and ability to improvise. Jazz music is possible because the unique culture of African Americans.

[@HockeyDudeJames2]

@@PerseusManchild so basically African Americans invented music?

[@PerseusManchild]

​@@HockeyDudeJames2 You must consider that since the 1820s in the US every popular music form was derived from African American culture. African Americans were to music as we are to sports. Please look up the difference between race and ethnicity and how culture defines identity. The uniqueness of African American culture is what you are missing. At core is the African American improvisational element which is why every generation of African Americans develop a NEW art form/

[@Edin-Caledonian]

Jazz music clearly comes from a multicultural base and is replete with diverse influences. That's the beauty of it and why it sounds so fabulous.

[@aaronhayman8558]

You make some great arguments here, and I agree with you. I've argued the same points a few times myself, with folks that are of the opinion that jazz is "black music." Though I'm careful to say that the music wouldn't have happened without the participation of black people and even to say that far more of the really important, really influential musicians in the music were black. At the same time, it seems obvious to me that it's really a melting pot so that the music as we know it was formed from influences that came from all around, not just the African diaspora. The instruments are mostly European in origin, and so much of what we know as jazz has complex harmonies that have roots in European music. None of this takes anything away from the black influence of the music because a lot of the rhythm, the bending of the notes, etc, comes from that part of it. "Fusion" is a word that's come to define just one subgenre of jazz, but it could apply to all of it, as at it's core, it's a fusion of all kinds of elements from different geogrpahic areas and different races. It's this fusion that makes it so unique. I'll also add that Jews have done a lot to shape the music, something that isn't always mentioned. For such a small minority, Jews are well represented as musicians as well as champions of the music. One has to wonder if jazz music would be what it is without the contribution that the Blue Note label has made, and the folks who started that and ran it for many decades were Jews...

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Exactly...the product of integration. I said that on FB and people gasped in horror that i had said such an evil thing.

[@applegrovebard]

Yes- Jews have played an enormous role in the history of jazz- as impresarios, club owners, managers, critics, record label execs, producers, etc. Obviously many black jazz musicians have often felt exploited as well as assisted and promoted. And many of the significant white jazz musicians have been Jewish- Benny Goodman, Stan Getz and so on. Also Jazz has drawn for decades for its material for improvisation largely on the 'Great American Songbook' all of whose greatest composers- with the exception of Cole Porter- were Jewish- Berlin, Kern, Gershwin, Rodgers, Arlen.

[@applegrovebard]

I would say the materials of jazz are pretty overwhelmingly European- the (chromatic) instruments, equal tempered 12 tone major-minor system, triads (and 4 note chords), the key modulation, the march and song forms.... No African melodic instrument has been adopted into jazz as far as I'm aware. Of course (simplifying), an African aesthetic created a wonderful new music with these materials...

[@nectarinedreams7208]

​@@AndyEdwardsDrummerDid they really gasp in horror, Andy? Or was it you gasping in horror that people dared to disagree with you? You seem to have a thing for offending people, like it's a kink. I hate to break it to you but it's highly unlikely anybody is actually offended by anything you have to say.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I believe in having a conversation and moving, through that conversation towards truth. I had this argument a few years ago when someone said to me 'Jazz has been Blackwashed'. I really disagreed and thought this was racist but in the end I had to adjust my opinion based upon the facts I was shown. If you go to earlier videos here I too say Jazz is Black music. I was wrong. And yes, the pushback has been considerable, and on one post people were upset I had used the word integration. Look at your comment here, it is antagonistic, accusing me of having some wierd 'kink' where I like to offend people. I see this sort of thing hundreds of times a day thrown my way. Your comment proves my point.

[@aindriubradleymarshall6226]

Bravo Andy, perceptive nuanced concepts are a struggle for some................

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Very true

[@PerseusManchild]

Yes Jazz is NOT Black music however it is 100% African American music. This my be a shock and news to you but African Americans are a separate ethnicity just like Italians or Germans or French people. We have unique and well developed culture and history. The whole Native American connection was simply a disguise because the Native American genetic and cultural contribution has bee proven almost non existent. Your other points a view are simply horribly wrong and perhaps you should reach out to people who have studied African American culture at academic level as I have.

[@jondaly4501]

I like this channel. For about 5 years I've noticed the link between prog and jazz. One morning I heard The Bad Plus play Long Distance Runaround and I thought that I was listening to Night in Tunisia.

[@classicalbum]

Brave video for this day and age

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

If you think what I'm really saying it shouldn't be. firstly, it's only my opinion, anyone can still call Jazz Black if they want, and secondly, my motives are to focus on the real genius of Jazz.

[@robertreed9818]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer And in order to do that, you are decentering Black people in the production of their own genius.

[@francis-808]

Considering the cultural climate, a brave video, Andy. Party on. 🤘🖖

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

not cancelled yet!!!!

[@PhilWare1]

Wasn't expecting this video from you, but as well as making a convincing argument you have also reflected the general state of political discourse today. Well done. 100% agree.

[@jakob8884]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer The video itself is fully ok about historical technicalities in the first part, but even if we leave aside the culture war clichés in the latter haft, what’s more typical of today’s climate than a certain demographic romanticizing their brave fight against windmills called “woke”? I scrolled fairly far down the comment section looking for the cancellers but only saw comments cheerleading the “bravery” - that irony is the point.

[@jakob8884]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Also, I don’t think you fully understand WHY this is sensitive issue at the core. It’s not because people have some mistaken idea about essentialism or lacking in historical understanding, but rather this: Western culture from colonialism and onwards (while waning somewhat in recent decades) has had as a primary cultural idea that whites are the inventors of everything, at least as an implicit message. Especially everything cerebral. Jazz has sort of been an exception to that in the cultural imagination. That’s the context that makes the video title statement a quite clumsy, even if it is technically correct.

[@216Numbskull]

​@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Nor should you be my friend, speak your peace & enjoy the music! IDGAS who, what, when or where certain genres of music were first created & founded by a musician. Music is selective to one's own personal opinion & belongs to no specific race, color or creed. The power of music reaches inside the hearts & souls in people, not on the outside by the color of their skin. This issue some people try to make shouldn't even be a conversation related to music. It's complete nonsense & a bunch of babbling BS! The last thing music wants to do to people is argue, fuss & fight. The main reason almost every real musician creates music is to share the vibe & energy they feel in hopes you feel it too! Music is made to enjoy & create some of the greatest memories in life you'll never forget. I'm just keeping it a buck & wish all these silly people out there would too. Music is a gift & shouldn't be taken for granted for sake of argument. If people think the world is crazy now. Just think what this world would be like without the sound of music? 🤔 Shhiittee... Blah,ha!! 😂🤣 +Peace, Funk & Rock n' Roll 4 Your Soul My Friend+ 🤘😜🤘

[@henryhay9543]

Entertaining and informative as ever

[@alancumming6407]

It is worthwhile you saying this Andy. We need to actually talk about these issues openly rather than the generally polarised way we tend to do now.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

we can talk, but only if we say the right things. I'm obviously treading as carefully as I can, fighting with one hand tied behind my back whilst the morally justified socially conscious types can call me names, shout about my whiteness and mis quote me as much as they like. but I have a name for people like that...twats....

[@alancumming6407]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer That's a good name. Sadly in Scotland we have been hit with the Hate Crimes Bill which allows for further freedom of speech erosion and could possibly, if not probably, be used for all sorts of nefarious reasons. We have to be careful now up here.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

It is the worst thing ever. It's only use is to silence diverse opinions. That in part prompted the opening of this video.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@alancumming6407 you did 'That's a good name. Sadly in Scotland we have been hit with the Hate Crimes Bill which allows for further freedom of speech erosion and could possibly, if not probably, be used for all sorts of nefarious reasons. We have to be careful now up here.'

[@colemangray]

In 40 year KZbin will have a video of a guy like this titled Why I don't think Hip-Hop is Black Music It will be in a series of videos that include : Why I don't think the Blues is Black Music Why I don't think R&B is Black Music Why I don't think Funk is Black Music Why I don't think Rock & Roll is Black Music

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Why I don't think classical music is White Music Why I don't think gamelan is Yellow Music Why I don't think Indian Classical Music is Brown Music Why I don't think Musical theatre is Jewish Music Why I don't think Flamenco is White Music Why I don't think Bossa Nova is Brown Music So why does this not happen...think...why?

[@PerseusManchild]

​@@AndyEdwardsDrummer It's not racial but it is cultural and ethnicity is why. Jazz is not Black music but it is African American music 100% and African Americans are an ethnic group not a race. You are confused by looking at it racially when African Americans are very different ethnicity and are responsible for the development of many art forms (Jazz, Country, Blues, Gospel, Rock N Roll, R&B, Soul, Disco, Funk, House and Hip Hop etc). One of the key aesthetics of African American culture is our ability and acceptance of improvisation and this is what separates us. Other cultures hold on to traditions in such a way that they become static however in African American culture change is the only constant. Jazz could only have been developed by African Americans because of our willingness and ability to improvise. Jazz music is possible because of the unique culture of African Americans. If jazz is not African American music then Mariachi music is not Mexican.

[@HelloSpecial-v9x]

​@@PerseusManchildyesh dummy jazz came from black culture .black is a not just a race but also an ethnicity and culture when it comes to black americans. Your cooler doesn't work on us

[@nihilistlivesmatter]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer It's odd that Jazz & Blues which are borne out of the European 12 tone system can be classed as blk music ignoring it's origins...but British rock such as Zeppelin Clapton Stones etc isn't given the same courtesy

[@rolandowagner7775]

Congratulations, you win the prize for the most logical fallacies in one ignorant post: False Dilemma, Red Herring, Hasty Generalization, Slippery Slope, Straw Man, Appeal to Ignorance, Causal Fallacy. Try arguing facts from the commentary instead of bring up some completely irrelevant nonsense.

[@zedsded62]

The problem is, this great desire/need to 'fix' totally, on a label. This then, denies all previous development and influences completely. No boundaries...no labels....

[@hansmagnusmalcolmsen9354]

Very informative and interesting.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@MarkJKLawrence]

Very interesting. I can't say I have enough history or knowledge to comment much, but I wholeheartedly agree with number 10. It's something I've often said, Jazz is incredible by being so open to influence and performance from every part of the world. I guess you could say it helps make us all Planetary Citizens!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Someone had a go at my number ten...

[@radiofreierfall3964]

Awesome, thanks for opening my view on jazz!

[@stuartblyton75]

You didn’t die on that hill. Good stuff.

[@Robt.Velasquez]

Andy, just let the video roll. There are many who will not be accepting even though the great Sonny Rollins is in agreement with you. Currently reading Saxophone Colossus.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Some are, some aren't. Rollins incredible genius goes way past the confines of a politically designated idea of African-American culture/history. The Left want to be kind. This is a good trait, but they react emotionally. I know that this title is triggering for people on the Left. They automatically think my intention is based in white racism. But I only have love for this music and for the great Black geniuses that innovated within it. Rollins is a world treasure. I have no racist feelings towards him, just awe and respect. A giant, a living god of a man. A greater man than me, a true artistic genius and example to us all. A gentle man in the true sense of that meaning. i really don't think there is any truth or utility in calling any music Black. Here in the UK we used to have an awards show called MOBOs Music of Black Origin. I used to think thats all music, we all originate in Africa, all of use. One world, One Love...lets get together because it will be alright...

[@Robt.Velasquez]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer ❤️👌🏻

[@richardthurston2171]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Speaking only for myself I don’t find the title of the episode “triggering”. But I do find passages like this: “People asserting their 'Blackness' seems like the Ku Klux Klan…” troubling. I assume you know the KKK were/are murderous racists, hardly the equivalent of “People asserting their ‘Blackness’.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

The KKK believe in a seperate race based states for whites, Marcus Garvey believed the same for Blacks. I beleive behind the BAM thing there is sympathy for the Garvey worldview. That is where I see the similarity, nothing beyond that.

[@richardthurston2171]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I gave you more credit Andy.

[@emiliovaldes1319]

I so do need a print out of this to read and re read it, and really take it in. Great stuff!

[@nickvickers3486]

If you go to the video description and click on more, you'll be able to see the written transcript of the video. Great video btw Andy!

[@PerseusManchild]

Yes Jazz is NOT Black music however it is 100% African American music. This my be a shock and news to you but African Americans are a separate ethnicity just like Italians or Germans or French people. We have unique and well developed culture and history. The whole Native American connection was simply a disguise because the Native American genetic and cultural contribution has bee proven almost non existent. Your other points a view are simply horribly wrong and perhaps you should reach out to people who have studied African American culture at academic level as I have.

[@ashevilleguitar]

The Native American influence on music has always been swept under the rug, thx for shining a little light on this Andy 👍✌️❤️🎵

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

It was that fact that swayed me that this was wrong and unethical

[@volpeverde6441]

some good native american beats.... I can play bass to....

[@Hismana-oi4yx]

​@@AndyEdwardsDrummerlol such lames both of you are. Unless you are talking abt the black Indians. Natives nor caucasians have anything to do with the beginng of anything music wise in north america. This is the reason why neither of you hsbe created anything genre wise in the last 50 years. The need to feel important is deep in you. You must be a the second oldest

[@melanatedwarrior3530]

HILARIOUS 🤣

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@melanatedwarrior3530 no facts...

[@klik64]

Andy, I really appreciate your efforts to disentangle these highly nuanced and complex issues.

[@PerseusManchild]

Yes Jazz is NOT Black music however it is 100% African American music. This my be a shock and news to you but African Americans are a separate ethnicity just like Italians or Germans or French people. We have unique and well developed culture and history. The whole Native American connection was simply a disguise because the Native American genetic and cultural contribution has bee proven almost non existent. Your other points a view are simply horribly wrong and perhaps you should reach out to people who have studied African American culture at academic level as I have.

[@mymixture965]

I am a Jazz musician, I know the history of Jazz, I am a Libertarian, I think you are spot on. Gratulation to pull this off, I could not do that.

[@jonathanstewart7838]

"I am a Libertarian" Are you on medication for it?

[@mymixture965]

@@jonathanstewart7838 Nobody told me that I can find assholes here, I am surprised but today they are everywhere I guess.....

[@mymixture965]

@@pentz1 A statement that is controversial, maybe you are one of the idiots who comment on videos they never watched?

[@nectarinedreams7208]

​@@mymixture965Typical libertarian with no sense of humour.

[@mymixture965]

@@nectarinedreams7208 Wrong, you must say "with a sense for GOOD humor"

[@stevelewis9317]

I took four semesters of Black Music History with Richard Davis back in the '80s. I also participated in a couple semesters of his Black Music Ensemble. Wonderful stuff, great experiences! I was fine with the "black music" label then. It seemed like a good corrective to past injustices and disrespect. But over the years calling things "Black" has started to seem strange to me -- Black Student Union, Black Business Hub, etc. What if there were something called the White Student Union? That would really seem strange! It seems like it's a good time to have things open and supportive of everyone -- unions, business groups, and, yes, jazz. So, I think I hear where you're coming from, Andy. Thanks for the brave video. Very thought-provoking.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Richard Davis came from a generation who had struggled with extreme predjudice and on into the civil rights era of the 60s. The Black geniuses that defined Jazz were and are worth celebrating. Black pride means nothing unless you have something to be proud about, and the legacy of Jazz Black people can be rightfully proud of. And so in the 60s-80s i can see why this was important. But the problem is once you start saying fancing stuff off as Black or white, you stop seeing the unification that exists in life, and it is that which will beat racism. This really, as with all things is a matter of balance

[@Relias]

The beautiful thing about Jazz music since the beginning is basically a gumbo of influences from different genres that got picked up throughout the years. So yes i agree , you can not put a color on it.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thank you...sometimes reading these comment I think I am going mad!

[@DeniDILOLOPodcast]

BS. Jazz is Black american style. FOH vulturism gaslighting.

[@daveduffy2823]

Jazz comes from New Orleans and it spread from there with added influences along the way.

[@jeffreyromain7336]

A rather thoughtful presentation.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

thank you

[@MartinU4179]

the problem here is that comments and Andy are not taking into account how the word 'Black' in America came about after 'Negro' and 'coloured' and therefore Andy is missing the meaning of 'Black Music' referring to American history and culture rather than people with dark skin across the whole world. As with so many concepts and category names, they do not translate well when they are taken out of their culture and context. The confusing aspect in this case is also that particularly American culture became world dominant in 20th C. ...well, at least that is what I think- happy to hear counter arguments too.

[@AKiEM.]

He seems to be purposefully misunderstanding so he can make his argument.

[@MartinU4179]

@@AKiEM. Its not entirely his fault- American tend to assume the whole world sits in the same historical context as America . Sharing the same language with Britain that has a very different history doesn't help.

[@AKiEM.]

@@MartinU4179 Americans do tend to ignore other cultural contexts. But we clearly take after the Brits if Andy is an indicator. The thing is that he has had this explained to him over and over again, he seems smart enough to understand. However, if you take into account a bunch of other flat out hateful rhetoric from him it’s clear to me he is just being a contrarian azz because he is being educated by the worst of us Americans.

[@MartinU4179]

@@AKiEM. I disagree- I think he has a flexible dynamic style that encourages debate and he later concedes to sone points made in these comments.

[@AKiEM.]

@@MartinU4179 maybe, but his last message to me was rather hateful.

[@visog]

Compelling argument. Would be good to hear a counter-argument too.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thank you...try here for the most eloquent counter nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/black-american-music-and-the-jazz-tradition/

[@arzabael]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer they’re not down

[@robertreed9818]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer This article barely touches on the creation of the artform, it's more about the politics and commercialization of Black art, and who gets to control it.

[@Aluenvey]

Well you know one of the big reasons I resisted classifying myself as a Jazz musician is do to the misconception of Jazz being African music. This created a weird few months there where people were unsure if I was playing metal or punk music.

[@shipsahoy1793]

It's capitalist slavery now. Reciprosity is out the window. Class separation is more of an issue, which the media doesn't acknowledge much. They're more concerned with color, gender ID, and political agenda in conmercial media.

[@nectarinedreams7208]

Okay, so the liberals kinda suck. I don't disagree. What's the solution? Continue to decimate the middle class and created an even wider gap between rich and poor by voting Tory? Or should we try socialism, which people like you hate?

[@buckfred1]

Thanks for this very astute video, Andy. You really enlightened me as to what Jazz is really about. I didn’t realize how it brought diverse peoples together the way it did…..much like rock music did in the late 60s and early 70s. Enjoyed it immensely! Cheers from the mountains of North Carolina!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Black musicians played a huge part..huge! But I think it skews their achievement and it is innaccurate to say that their involvement means they have ownership of it. No race owns music

[@Tony216_]

IWASS don’t work here Jazz is Black American music

[@donaldmccall3968]

Burh, jazz was invented in New Orleans by Bubby Bolden, was first to have back up band.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Ok...who was Charlie Galloway then ?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

And who the hell is Bubby?

[@jedtulman46]

Go on Andy Take No Prisoners

[@stefanredin854]

Hear hear 👍

[@applegrovebard]

Probably most of us can agree that the most significant, and the best thing to have happened to 'western' music - and not just popular music, but music as a whole- in the last 200 years has been the black, African-derived influence.Schoenberg and his serialist music didn't turn out to have a comparable energizing reach...

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

But was it African derived. How does Dixieland Jazz sound African to you?

[@applegrovebard]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer No- Dixieland jazz doesn't sound like any African music I've heard. But if I compare popular music in Europe and the west in the early 19th century and say late 20th century I see some huge changes. Above all in the rhythm- there is a much more uninhibited, spontaneous, exuberant rhythm. There seems more of an acceptance, a celebration that humans are animals, and sexual animals. Dance changed from sedate perambulations across the floor to vigorous uninhibited gyrations on the spot (typical of Afican dance). Also there has been a shift from an ideal pure beautiful tone that that human voice and instruments should adhere to, to a wide palette of expressive sound, mimicking screams, shouts, groans. And more spontaneous performance, less tied to notation- the return of improvisation. Where did these changes come from? Surely, mainly from American ex-slaves. And if these ex-slaves had come from eg east Asia I don't think this shift would have occurred. These features are found in, and can be traced back to African music. Or where would you trace these changes to? (I haven't expressed this well, but you get my point...).

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

The rhythms of Jazz come from Sousa marches, the church and Native American rhythms. If you take a sousa march and apply that rhythm to a hymn what does that sound like?

[@applegrovebard]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer As I suggested- imagine if America's slaves had been sourced from China rather than Africa- how different would western popular music look today? No blues, no jazz, no rock n roll, no soul, no funk, no hiphop- no pop music as we know it. My guess is that the Chinese slave population would have had a pretty small musical impact and our popular music would still be largely European in its aesthetic. ps could you upload a video to show me how to dance to a Sousa march?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

It would sound completely different. and if there were no other races in the US, it would sound like African music. You make my point for me.

[@FloatingAnarchy61]

Andy I rarely read the comments before one of your videos drops, but I was curious because I anticipated the reaction you'd get. Admittedly it"s a clickbaity title but to be honest they're the ones that get the views. My dad's a working class Irishman who came over here when he was 15, and loved Jazz, mostly bebop,(he hated trad jazz), but most of that was down to his association of it with what he called beatniks not the sharp suited boppers. Along with Charlie Parker and Dizzy and Miles he loved Chet Baker, Tubby Hayes and his ultinate hero Ronnie Scott. He also liked Stan Kenton who you mentioned on your Zappa video recently. I have nowhere near your vast knowledge of Jazz, when I was younger it was heavy rock , prog and later punk, I didn't really listen to my dads stuff. But is this really a hill you want to die on. I'm ambivalent really, although would probably come down on the side of it being primarily a black artform, but with majorly influential white performers as well. Anyway I'm interested in seeing you argue your point. Your going to get some increased traffic mind, with all sorts of crazies joining in the bunfight. I honestly think this could make or break your channel. Good luck mate.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I have a plan here...you will see

[@pontifexvonhummer9459]

I’m always amazed at how not only can I never predict what you’re going to say, but how you say things I’ve never before considered. Especially in this vid. You’ve told a lot of important truths. I hope you’re treated well when the Marxists come marching in.

[@Loskov-my3xw]

He's not going to tongue your balls.

[@sdmike1141]

WOW!! This ought to spice up the “comments”.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

already spicy before it even premiered

[@JohnnyRecently]

Fantastic video, Andy

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@oolongoolong789]

It's worth remembering that "minstrels" have a very long tradition, much longer than American blackface minstrels of the early 19th century. Minstrels are said to have begun in medieval Europe, "It originally described any type of entertainer such as a musician, juggler, acrobat, singer or fool; later, from the sixteenth century, it came to mean a specialist entertainer who sang songs and played musical instruments." (Wiki)

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I am having one of the worlds experts on minstrelsy on the channel soon. Talking with him has completely changed how I see 20th century music

[@truthsaviour8804]

Minstrels were whites mimicking black culture in a negative way. Minstrels did not give birth to jazz. These performances were for white audiences. How would black Americans be influenced by it?

[@Ainsworth-j9d]

Hahaha the moors originated minstrel it's an African concept the person is called a griot

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@truthsaviour8804 This is absolutely wrong and you know it. The first Black superstars in the US were blackface performers. The first published ragtime was song was by Ernest Hogan. This is basic jazz history, you must know this. But the idea that Black people were never influenced anything but other Black people is not only untrue but also impossible. You are not objective. You are too influenced by pushing a particular narrative.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@Ainsworth-j9d A minstrel was an entertainer, initially in medieval Europe. Look it up if you don't believe me...

[@motorpsykler]

Music unites all of humanity, including and maybe especially jazz. Attempts to segregate music by race are attempts to destroy the most beautiful aspect of music, its universal humanity. I just wanted to let you know that your message did not fall on completely deaf ears. Your motivation here is one of true love for humanity, those of us that actually think about things, recognize that. You’re fighting the ACTUAL good fight Andy. Keep it up. Cheers from fly-over country in America!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thank you...being told I was an alt right racist and a middle aged white man from England was starting to get me down a little....being hit over your head continually for being white, well now I know what it's like to be on the end of a racists attack...but of course that is not possible as you cannot racist to whites...or Jews now apparently...

[@jeffreyromain7336]

​@@AndyEdwardsDrummerSorry to read this. There's too many plonkingtons sitting in the corner spitting venom. I am a POC (or whatever the current label of the month is) and I find all this grifting vitriol rather depressing.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

POC...Person of character! The worst of it is that all this talk, they think they are talking for you...'Black people are this, black arent that' etc. I often feel that must be really annoying! No one ever says 'I'm a representative of the white community' then says some subjective opinion as though all whites think like that. no one tells a white person what they are supposed to be offended by...

[@UFO314159]

AE, you talk sense. Don't back down.

[@sweetspotdrummer]

Given the author's logic, Black Americans are not Black because they wear European style clothing. Most white musicians can't play "black music" whether it is Jazz, Reggae, Blues, Calypso, Rock, Country like black musicians. Black people have a different rhythm and feel. Music has an internal element which is different racially. Literally, brown sugar and white sugar are not 100% the same. Look at a white audience listening to black music say up to the 1990s. They can't dance to black music like black folks would. Today with greater exposure that is less true but still very true. Like Bob Marley said, "dem know it but dem cyan't do it". Reggae music is Black Jamaican music. Conclusion: Jazz is Black American music.

[@edwardyazinski3858]

Andy, what so you think the “entertainment “ aspect played on jazz development. Meaning, just like early blues artists early jazzers played to earn a living and that includes in whatever venues paid them and what ever styles were required that particular evening - I would guess most could not afford to be picky and turn down paying gigs. So they played whatever was popular at the time classical, lite classical, show tunes, pop ditties etc… What role do you think this played in the evolution of Jazz development?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

This is a video in itself....

[@edwardyazinski3858]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer love to see that one! And make it long! You know 98% of us here want your videos to be longer. Let the whiners watch tictok

[@mikeydflyingtoaster]

Great video, Andy. No matter how articulately you made your argument on this topic, you are bound to get pushback on it. These conversations have to be had though. Good on ya 😊

[@colinmandell8500]

Hey Andy Love your channel. Unlike other pods, you really dig deeper into the influences, social context of music and society and so much more. I live in South Africa and worked across this continent for 25 years. As a ballet, flamenco, argentine tango, salsa dancer/teacher and music lover, my tastes are varied. I grew up on Classical music, as well as Miles, Coltrane, Zappa and 70s Rock and love your reflections on them and other artists you feature. Having travelled and listened to AFRICAN music, I feel its influences on the greater body of work i.e., Rock, jazz, fusion etc is huge. This is NOT Black music but original AFRICN music. Consider the Rumba of DRC and its influence on argentine tango music, North African musics influence on Flamenco. Artists like Salif Keita, Youssou N'dour, Babba Maal and of course the great Nigerian artist, Fela Kouti. I would love to hear your views on how this continent is something of a fountainhead of music. Africa is both the origin of mankind AND to a large extent of music!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks for your kind comments. I disagree but I do not think it is problematic calling it African music. African American music would not be accurate for me, but it would be a lot better than Black music. It would naming where the music came from, not the colour of the skin who created it...that seems seperatist to me

[@colinmandell8500]

Hi thanks for that but I think I might have misrepresented what I meant. My point was how the influence of music rooted in this continent has made its way up north and west. In fact African Music as a descriptor is not doing the multi faceted continent justice. As you would know the West, North East Central and South are in themselves varied (Ghanaian vs Togolese vs Nigerian vs Senegalese, Mali etc etc) The one complaint I would make though is that the wealth of music here is not reaching the amount of people on the planet to the extent that American and European music is. This is more about where the wealth lies, the recording industry and the nature of Capitalism....but thats a discussion for another day.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

capitalism is my favourite system, if it wasn't I would move somewhere else like China or North Korea

[@robertreed9818]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Hold on, so you're willing to strip Black Americans from their cultural output to try and offer it to EVERYONE, but somehow Jazz being called African music is less of an afront than calling it African American music? And I don't understand this hang up on color, if the music was created by Black people in Africa, then it is BLACK music.

[@orangeburnnyc]

This guy just admitted in the comments he did this video to monetize on KZbin, bragging about how many comments he has. So have fun with your temporary spike in views and likes, what you are doing is hardly original.

[@davidwylde8426]

Great video, and I for one, certainly believe your intentions in having the discussion, are nested within a desire to contribute positively to an ongoing exploration of ideas that seem to currently permeate every aspect of culture. I think you acquitted yourself very well both on the video and in the comments section. But, I do think these kind of discussions are very tricky because although the initial premise can appear to be about a simple technical detail that just needs to be researched, it’s often much more complex with musical, historical, aesthetic, political and semantic considerations all needing to be factored in. I think this is why the conversations can get bogged down and sometimes completely derailed, especially if there’s a bad actor involved. But even without that, they’re conversations that need to be had in good faith and with good will. And maybe there’s ultimately no right or wrong answer, but with this good faith and good will in place then the exercise should be ultimately positive and worth doing. Well done Andy.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

There is no right and wrong answer. And my position here will be embellished more by the video premiering tomorrow

[@PerseusManchild]

It's not racial but it is cultural and ethnicity is why. Jazz is not Black music but it is African American music 100% and African Americans are an ethnic group not a race. You are confused by looking at it racially when African Americans are very different ethnicity and are responsible for the development of many art forms (Jazz, Country, Blues, Gospel, Rock N Roll, R&B, Soul, Disco, Funk, House and Hip Hop etc). One of the key aesthetics of African American culture is our ability and acceptance of improvisation and this is what separates us. Other cultures hold on to traditions in such a way that they become static however in African American culture change is the only constant. Jazz could only have been developed by African Americans because of our willingness and ability to improvise. Jazz music is possible because of the unique culture of African Americans. If jazz is not African American music then Mariachi music is not Mexican.

[@davidwylde8426]

@@PerseusManchild Hi I just wanted to check, because you’ve replied on my comment, but I’m guessing you’re replying to Andy possibly ?

[@davidwylde8426]

@@PerseusManchild Ah, I can see that you’ve posted the same reply to Andy on another thread, so I’m assuming it was just an error. For what it’s worth I think you’re probably just talking past each other and it’s a slight difference of emphasis. In a face to face dialogue you’d probably find that if you really drilled down into what each of you were claiming, then you’d both probably be able to sign off on each other’s positions.

[@PerseusManchild]

@@davidwylde8426 I don't believe that's true. He is using race as if there's one Black culture and that's incredibly flawed. After studying African American culture and reading 100s of books on it's ethnogenesis I can provide a retort to his problematic statements. The essential element allowed for the development of Jazz at it's inception was the improvisational element of African American culture. African American culture encourages change unlike any other culture. This is why Jazz was largely discarded and left behind by African Americans.

[@thepride999]

As an Indigenous Black American musician that plays Jazz, symphony, folk, blues etc.. I agree with what you’re saying. However, you have to look at why Black Americans have been forced to label things Black. This comes from centuries of war and genocide waged against us, everything was stolen including, land and culture. We had to say "Black is Beautiful" out of a necessity for survival because we were indoctrinated to hate ourselves and devalue our lives. So yes Jazz is not Black music but it is an art form created by Black people in New Orleans. The population of the city in the mid 1800s included 50k people from the Caribbean. Haitians, Cubans Black Americans and poor whites in the Latin quarter added to the creation of Jazz. All of these people developed the form but the Blues is what perfected jazz and made it a Black American invention.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

From my research: In 1709 no Black people in Louisiana, in 1712 there were 10 slaves. by 1743, approximately 5,951 Africans had arrived in Louisiana via slave ships. The majority of enslaved Africans came from Senegambia Though most people of African descent arrived in Louisiana as slaves, many were able to gain their freedom and live as free persons in the colony. Slaves were manumitted for various reasons, including military service, public service Louisiana was controlled by France. France only controlled a small fraction of this area, most of which was inhabited by Native Americans; effectively, for the majority of the area, the United States bought the preemptive right to obtain Indian lands by treaty or by conquest, to the exclusion of other colonial powers The Louisiana Purchase encompassed 530,000,000 acres of territory in North America that the United States purchased from France in 1803 for $15 million. The Louisiana Purchase marked a new phase in the development of the black community in New Orleans that gave it a truly remarkable degree of ethnic diversity. In 1806, a new Black Code was put into place, which limited the rights of free black people. the Louisiana Black Code of 1865 that restricted the movement and activities of African Americans 1865 Black slaves freed and start to come to New Orleans to find work. 1860-80 Black numbers rose from 25k to 50k. This creates tensions with Creoles who are now classed as Black but do not see themselves as such This is from my notes researching into this. This is just my notes on the number of Black Americans in Louisiana in the 19th century. this is how deep I have gone into this subject. My research is leading me to believe that this "Black is beautiful' is the way Black people have been duped. It is patronising and childish. White people would never say 'white is beautiful' Jazz is the commercial creation of white people. Once you realise this you realise why Sonny Rollins said that Jazz was not Black music. He was doing something that did not fit into this concept. Black Music=Minstrelsy. Now look at modern hip hop and look who funds it and how it is marketed. People can call me a racist here but they have been duped. blacks have always been treated the same way in the US. I have come to the conclusion if they want to leave the mistrel show they need to STOP calling things Black. But what do I know, I'm a white British man aren't I...

[@thepride999]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣....

[@AKiEM.]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I guarantee you know absolutely nothing about Hip-Hop other than what you have been fed by corporations.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@AKiEM. I worked in the UK hip hop scene as a producer and remixer. I remixed Red Dragon's We Run Tings in 2000 for example. I also worked on the documentary 'Pre School' about the history UK HipHop and I was invilved in the early demos for what became The Streets here in the UK. this is me: www.discogs.com/artist/43661-The-Wikkamen-Project It's funny how the identity lot are so quick to make assumptions about people based upon their race. Assumptions which are absolutely innaccurate. And so what are your credentials that mean you are an expert on hip hop? Listened to some records?

[@AKiEM.]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer 😂breh, don’t never link to that record again and claim some Hip-Hop credentials - that ish ain’t HH and it’s terrible 😂 after hearing 20 seconds of that I’m sure of my statement, absolutely. And no I did not judge you by your “ethnicity”. You are stuck on that. I judged you by your claim that HH is “putrid and stagnant” or whatever you said. Hilarious

[@shipsahoy1793]

👍Good video. I agree with your assessment. 👍

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@CAMM-CynthiaM]

I'm sorry, Sir. But a lot of your arguments against calling Jazz music.Black music is very subjective and based on your personal opinion and not anything when it comes to empiricism. Also I think that you need to understand that the world that we live in is not colorblind.And I think that you also need to also understand that it was white.People specifically in america that created race in the first place and that creation was to subjugate people of african descent in america and also in the americas. I'll feel your creating a strawman saying If you call jazz Black music as a white person you can't talk about it. That is the most nonsensical thing ever. Obviously there are plenty of ethnomusicologist, music critics, historians and the like that discusses this music that are white. You know what they also say? They say the Jazz music was created by Black Musicians in Louisiana and they called it Jas/Jaz/Jass based on the smell of Jasmine perfume that was popular and used by the ladies in the Brothels. Secondly, your analysis of the rhythms used in Jazz being mostly used in March music is not completely factual. Music historians and ethnomusicologists have correlated complex rhythms in Jazz directly to West Africa. Your analysis is incorrect. Also the integration you speak of in New Orleans is a contributing factor to it being spread and white musicians learning it like Nick LaRocca and the Original Dixie Land Band. Also Creole people who believe they were white does not mean they were looked as such nor saying they were influenced by Blacks. Again you imbue so many strawman arguments in your analysis. You involve your analysis to mixed race people. Mix race people in Europe is not treated the same as it was in America. A lot of Creole people were mixed and could pass as white because being Black was an immediate disconnection from resources and social standing. Remember race was written directly in laws in America of who could have and who could not. The bottom line is Jazz is a creation of African Americans. Although a hodge podge of other cultures that existed in America contributed to Jazz, there is denying historically this was a Black American invention. You are basing more of your analysis on feeling and your interpretation of history.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I am completely aware of all the issues you raise here. My intention is not to simply trot the Ken Burns narrative but to get into the nooks and crannies of this history. Jazz was created by Black and Creole musicians in New Orleans. At the time they did not see themselves as the same race, in fact there was racism between Creoles and Blacks. That tension is the main factor that creates Jazz. If we go as far back as we can go, there are white and Black Jazz musicians in New Orleans. The whites were either solely learning from the Blacks and Creoles, or it was going bothe ways. There is a theory, and I have explored it here, that Native Americans had a much bigger influence on the creation of Jazz than is known. Finally. minstrelsy, which actually involved the back forth between whites and Blacks, is perhaps the biggest factor in the creation of Jazz. the rhythms in Jazz are not African. I am a drummer and music lecturer. Once you understand the history of drumming, you know where those rhythms come from...marching music and the church and the rags in minstrel shows. hugely influenced by Black Americans but not from Africa.

[@CAMM-CynthiaM]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer you may be trying to get into the nooks and crannies of history your conclusions are incorrect. I'm not asking you to regurgitate Ken Burns, which all he did was film it he was not the expert consulted. Besides brushing aside Blacks being the creators and Whites learning from them which most historians agreed and also the Jazz rhythms having West African influence and most historians also agreeing. I'm not sure why you're trying to die on this hill sir but most of the commenters are also giving you smoke so I'll step back.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Race ideology has taken over from logic here; ' Blacks being the creators and Whites learning from them' What is this statement based upon, please show me the evidence as I beleive there is none. The furthest we can go back there are white, creole and Black musicians working in New Orleans, which is a port and melting pot, but you discount that aspect to claim that no Black jazz musician ever took anything from other musicians, despite about 80% of the elements of Jazz coming from European and Native American music. PLEASE SUPPLY PROOF of your claims. They are not correct. The rhythms MAY have a West African influence and most likely coming via latin America. But the swing beats we hear on early Jazz don't seem to have any correlation to African rhythms. Now this is all very basic stuff, but there are much more nuanced ideas about how this music was created, but this idiot race ideology stops people from exploring them. I can't even get to first base because of a load of race seperatists thinking I'm taking something away from Black people. You can only think this if you have some sort of Black supremacist view of race. This needs to stop and people need to start having a proper conversation about this. People make music. New music is ALWAYS created by cultural mixing. Jazz was created that way. Black people found a voice in that music. But it was not Africab music. Individual Black geniuses innovated specific things. You can tell me who did what if you know so much to lecture me. But their innovation had nothing to with race and everything to do with their genius. I'n getting tired of people who I know, know less about this subject than me, telling me i know nothing. How short sighted can people be. Have a think about this really, explore your aims here. And for a second, think what I amsaying here if my intention is to NOT take anything away from Black people, but expolain something else.

[@dryinkdryink675]

Black is synonymous with Black America....we coined that phrase.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@dryinkdryink675 Not in the UK. Black has a completely different meaning here. And I keep kearing the word 'we'. My friend said to me 'I wish they would stop talking like they are talking to me'. Black can only mean 'having enough African ancestry that you can see this by a persons appearance'. I state it again, if we are trying to work out how Jazz actually came to be, it is not sufficient

[@waldenlake9818]

Did you name the scholar who argues that twentieth-century rock music is a form of minstrelsy? I would love to read that title, but I may have missed it in your presentation.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I interviewed him here, his name is Byrne Power

[@waldenlake9818]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Great, thanks!

[@spadesmaster2153]

Jazz, at its core, is undeniably Black music. Its origins, evolution, and essence are deeply rooted in the African American experience. It emerged in the early 20th century in the African American communities of New Orleans. It is a direct descendant of African rhythms, spirituals, blues, and ragtime. These forms of music were expressions of the Black experience in America, reflecting the struggles, joys, and resilience of a people who were often marginalized and oppressed. The pioneers of such as Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, and Miles Davis, were all African American. Their contributions were not merely technical or artistic; they infused jazz with a unique cultural perspective that spoke to the Black experience. These artists shaped the sound, structure, and ethos of jazz in ways that cannot be separated from their identities and experiences as Black individuals. Jazz was not just music but a form of cultural expression and social commentary. During the Harlem Renaissance, jazz became a symbol of Black artistic achievement and a tool for challenging racial stereotypes. It provided a platform for Black musicians to assert their dignity and creativity in a society that often denied them both. While jazz has been embraced and contributed to by musicians of all ethnicities worldwide, this global participation does not erase its Black origins. Just as classical music remains rooted in European traditions despite worldwide adoption, jazz retains its identity as Black music. The participation of non-Black musicians is a testament to the genre's universal appeal and the profound influence of Black culture, not a negation of its origins. Even today, contemporary jazz artists continue to draw on the rich heritage of African American music. The themes, rhythms, and improvisational styles that define jazz remain deeply connected to the Black experience. This ongoing relationship underscores the idea that jazz is not merely music that anyone can play, but a cultural expression that remains intrinsically linked to its Black creators. Jazz is without doubt Black music. Its origins, development, and cultural significance are inextricably tied to the African American experience. The involvement of diverse musicians today enriches the genre but does not alter its foundational identity. Jazz, with its roots in the Black community, continues to be a powerful testament to the creativity and resilience of Black culture.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

What I find odd is when I get comments like this, as though, even though I lectured on music history for twenty years, People still tell me this cliched version of Jazz history. This history does not make sense to me so I am questioning it. Your description has philosophical problems with it's definition to start with. So you say 'Its origins, evolution, and essence are deeply rooted in the African American experience' It's origins are in primarily New Orleans marching bands, In New Orleans at the time there were white, black, creole and native american bands. How was it only the experience of Black people that created Jazz? Did the Creoles, who had a completely different experience, also play a part? Then you mention 'essence' and 'core' of Jazz. Could you define what that actually is? Is in the instruments, or the harmony, or melodies, or the syncopation, or the tunes etc. Which of these represents the core of Jazz. When someone goes to college to study Jazz they learn Western European music technique and theory? Is this not then the core? Tell me what 'essence' means? The pioneers of Jazz were Papa Jack Laine, Lorenzo Tio, Buddy Bolden, Kid Ory, ODJB, Jelly Roll Morton, Sidney Bechet, King Oliver, Freddie Keppard. A mixture of all races and cultures. Was it only the Black musicians on this list who created Jazz? And Charlie Parker was also half native american? So does that also make Jazz Native American? Is Classical music retain it's white identity even if Black people play it and compose within it? Should we call Classical Music 'white'. And all the incredible things white people have invented, like science, democracy, modern medicine, abolishment of slavery etc...can we call all those things white too? Do white people won the abolishment of slavery and should we have racial pride in our achievements??? If I play Jazz which I do, does that relate to my experience, or to collective Black experience? What are the elements in my music that represent Black experience? Which experience does it represent? Millionaire Blacks? African Blacks? Right wing conservative Blacks who disagree with what you are claiming? All their experience is represented when I play Jazz??? Fundamentally when you say 'Jazz is without doubt Black music. Its origins, development, and cultural significance are inextricably tied to the African American experience' Please give me specific examples which prove this claim to be true. If you cannot, should i still believe you?

[@spadesmaster2153]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Your points about the multicultural influences in early jazz are valid, but they don't negate the fundamental truth that jazz is a Black creation. While it's true that New Orleans was a melting pot with diverse bands, the core innovators of jazz were Black musicians who synthesized these influences into a new, distinct genre. The unique elements of jazz, its syncopation, swing, and blues tonality, are rooted in African American musical traditions, which were then adapted and transformed by Black musicians. The “essence” of jazz lies in its improvisation, rhythmic complexity, and emotional depth, all derived from African American culture. Instruments, harmony, and melodies in jazz serve as vehicles for these elements, but they are not the essence itself. While Western European music theory may be taught in jazz studies, the improvisational and expressive techniques central to jazz are distinctly African American. By the way, I am related to Miles, am not your average enthusiast, am somewhat of a scholar; and I know better than what academicians like to frame, respectfully. In retrospect, this is on the same as Rock N Roll, but Jazz is our baby. And we're not going to sit back and let you create a narrative that is not exact.

[@spadesmaster2153]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Look, I'm sure i've been around a bit longer than you, but there's a list of pioneers which includes musicians of various backgrounds, but the creators, foundational figures like Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, and King Oliver were Black. They shaped jazz in ways that drew heavily on African American cultural experiences and Charlie Parker's mixed heritage doesn't diminish the fact that his contributions were rooted in the Black experience. Classical music's European origins are acknowledged, just as jazz's African American origins should be. Right? Recognizing the origins of a genre doesn't exclude others from participating; it acknowledges where and how the genre was fundamentally shaped. Jazz reflects the African American experience, from spirituals and blues to the struggles and triumphs of Black life in America. It’s “Black” music because it was created and developed by Black Americans who infused it with their cultural heritage and experiences. This acknowledgment doesn't diminish the contributions of others but honors the genre's true origins.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

i just listed the core innovators, and they aren't all Black!!! Here is a well researched study that argues the elements you are saying are Black aren't davidtemperley.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/temperley-pm21.pdf I think you believe if you keep saying it, it is true. I'm not saying your wrong but please provide some evidence. So Improvisation...all musicial cultures contain improvisation. What makes Jazz improv special is the adaption of european harmonic and technical approaches (ie playing the changes and the lessons Sidney Bechet took from the Tio family that taught a specific clarinet technique that aided Jazz improvisation. on wikipedia, look it up) Now the 'vocalisation' elements in Jazz improv are Afro American, but these 'essences' will always by down to cultural mixing. I'm a musician and i have studied creativity deeply. It is based on a number of critical factors. So when UK musicians created UK Garage (I was a part of that scene) no one was channelling ancient racial/cultural norms, they were breaking the rules, and everyone, from all different backgrounds were involved. With Jazz Black people played a huge part. But the single thing created the genre of Jazz were those ODJB recordings that sold 1 million copies. It created a market for that specific type of Jazz, and everyone followed suit, Black and white. Jazz was a white version of 'race music' created by white record companies. That is what Jazz is, nothing more noble. But then geniuses like Louis, And Jelly Roll, and Bix, and Django turned it into an artform. It's got nothing to do with essences, it's got everything to do with individual genius. The Blackness came from the fact that Black musicians had no other way of expressing themselves so they turned it into an artform. it was not an artform until the 20s That is a testament not to their Blackness, but to the fact that they were brilliant genius artists, despite what their racist world made them out to be. But your story denies that doesn't it? They are great because they are Black. And you do that so you can use the word 'we' don't you! Did you know WE came up with the theory of relativity...beat that Black folks!!! Stupid.

[@spadesmaster2153]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Your argument contains several misunderstandings and dismissals of historical context. I'll address your points and correct some of the misconceptions It’s true that many musical cultures have elements of improvisation, but jazz improvisation is distinct because of its "African American roots." The European harmonic influences you mention were indeed adapted by Black musicians, but the way these harmonies were used, combined with the African rhythmics, created a unique form of improvisation that is central to so-called jazz. Yes, cultural mixing played a role in jazz’s development, as it did in many musical genres. However, the primary innovators and the cultural framework from which jazz emerged were African American. This "cultural mixing" doesn’t diminish the fact that the CORE elements and the soul of jazz are deeply rooted in the African American experience.

[@unepomme1375]

That was a fine video, and perfectly articulated i must say. Thank you.

[@applegrovebard]

Yes- jazz is a great American gift to the world. And the thing about giving a gift is that you don't own it anymore. Just as western classical music has become a gift to the world and white, European-heritage musicians don't own it any more. The great 'classical' composer of the century might be Chines, might be black. Since the 60s and 70s great jazz musicians have come from many countries and black American musicians are no longer invariably the dominating figures- it has become a universal vernacular musical language for improvising musicians.

[@AmericanLord]

Right, they won't date tell Southern White that country music isn't white, even though it isn't.. the hypocrisy. What they are doing is saying we are incapable of creating the greatest musical genre to ever exist.. they want the association but they will never get it..​@missam3404

[@redpillras3456]

Great black American *

[@edwardyazinski3858]

Cannot forget the military fife and drum influences

[@armonepie7722]

Marxism is a economic theory within class system not culture nor identity. Great video by the way

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes...but Marxism was incorporated into the cultural theory of the Frankfurt School and Mao's version of communism. Foucault refined the idea of power relations, rather than economic disparities and Derrida added the idea of a social constructionist view of language. Marx influenced them all So modern identity politics can be seen as Marxism, but with a hierachy of privilege linked to identity replacing the workers/ruling class thing in Marxism

[@armonepie7722]

Correctly true sadly, the new left had high jack the Marx theory by mixing the Liberal left politics with Cultural identity as it showed over 30 years old ago. By all means its ok to been aware for corrections with clearance between originally and copy aka Cultural Marxism. Hope to meet you soon dear fellow musician.

[@lupcokotevski2907]

The working class were not interested in a Marxist revolution - they want good working conditions and fair pay, and some, like plumbers and electricians and carpenter's became well off and even rich - i know a guy who was a solo electrician, and 20 years later he had built a business employing 40 electricians. Therefore, the Marxists needed a different tack which was further compelled by the fall of the Soviet Union.

[@nolslifegren]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummerIdentity politics is antithetical to marxism .

[@MartinU4179]

Great observations for discussion even if some observations here have put you straight on interpretation of American centric meaning of the 'Black' term which is actually also used in UK and most other places by black people. I think maybe you should have also mentioned Klezmer music from Eastern European/ Jewish immigrants also contributed to evolution of Jazz music- particularly in improvisation. Then there are composition contributors like George Gershwin - the American experience broadening out for commercial purpose. Just shows how 'Sultans of Swing' is really such an ironic take on how little sensitivity goes into labelling over time. Another great subject for you to discuss; What happened to the Rhythm and Blues genre and how has it become R&B- something unrecognisable from 60s? ...and is the difference between 'Rhythm and Blues' and then 'Soul' in the 60s basically 'white' and 'black'. It seems Ray Charles music has been called both these category labels though. What is 'Soul' music today?- is the category defunked!

[@mhiggott2931]

I have no idea what Andy's arguments are going to be, but people commenting here should maybe read up on the history of jazz first

[@Robt.Velasquez]

Why? It’s so much easier to be lazy and remain ignorant.

[@kylec2761]

Why? Does the history of basketball tell you whether it’s a Black sport?

[@starcloud4959]

Yeah exactly does the history of basketball tell you its a " black sport" ?

[@pauldecoster]

You make me glad I took up jazz. As I get older, I feel more at home there

[@pauldecoster]

You’ve also opened the conversation for strengthening the Constitution as the concept of it seems the only way to hold people together, even if they need to change it

[@shoegazer93]

Pink Floyd????

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I don't think you call a Floyd 'Pink'. It's more accurate to call them Posh English Floyd

[@colinburroughs9871]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer now do Steely Dan!

[@Hartlor_Tayley]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer the Posh Floyd lol

[@rolandowagner7775]

Excellent video. Every new genre of music is a gumbo mixture of different influences so, if you think jazz is only black music, you'd have to look only at the black ingredients and ignore all of the white ingredients. This would be like examining original Jamaican ska and Bossa nova and ignoring American jazz in ska and west coast jazz in Bossa Nova while calling Ska as only Jamaican music and Bossa nova as only Brazilian music.

[@ImmaBeast713]

I guess all those song, and clips from the 20s of blacks playing jazz was just fake,this is a case of " I'm white and I say so"

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

you don't get what saying do you. I will repeat what I said in the video: Black musicians played A HUGE PART in the creation of Jazz. But other people did too, which is why there are also loads of jazz tunes played by white nusicians back in the twenties too...maybe Black people made it up along with other people? Maybe that is why it sounds like a mix of white and Black music! It all makes sense now, that is why there are clips of all sorts of people playing jazz...

[@ImmaBeast713]

@AndyEdwardsDrummer huge part my ass, we are the creator just like black people created modern day music,PERIOD

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

And there it is...the word 'we'...believe what you want to believe, you have been duped...

[@ImmaBeast713]

@AndyEdwardsDrummer duped? Nah, just not letting you vultures try to change history even more than you all have already done. The fact of the matter is that there's enough proof that my people created it and it's flat out disrespectful, but I'm not surprised but let me guess, next you'll say we didnt create Rock or Country neither?.....

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

If you want to go down this race essentialist route, what do respect about white culture?

[@mankdeems251]

Scottish penal servitude in North America was common before Scotland entered union with England (who were the overlords of Wales and Ireland) in 1707, after which Scotland as a nation played a full part in the British Empire. Before this Scotland did have imperial activities separate from the English Empire. The rivalry with the English Empire and ultimate economic failure of the Scottish Empire was a key part leading to the treaties of the Acts of Union. This distinction is important when considering the role of music from Scotland in the formation of other musical forms.

[@melanatedwarrior3530]

😂😂😂😂

[@mankdeems251]

@@melanatedwarrior3530 why the laughter?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@mankdeems251 You have filled in another gap for me here. Thank you. And I feel the same way when some idiot drops a row of laughing emojis when you have explained something quite profound.

[@thatsiriangrind]

Who exactly are you trying to convince of this? I wonder how Beiderbecke or Goodman or Getz or Whiteman or Red Rodney would respond to your assertion that jazz is, at it's root, not the byproduct of the history of the black experience in America.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

They did not live in a time where this identity ideology had gotten hold of establishment view. Now, Jazz is the by product of the history of the Black experience. If you think I was saying that, you did not understand the video.

[@thatsiriangrind]

​@@AndyEdwardsDrummer​@AndyEdwardsDrummer That's like saying if not for majority concensus no one would agree that the sun is hot. Surely the artists I identified and many others besides knew the history of the music they were playing and didn't need the result of a group think to confirm it. Honestly bro' both the substance of your vid and your reply to my comment hold less weight than a 90 pounder on 30 day fast. And I firmly believe, now, that you did it for views you knew it would generate. It's either that or your just a schmontz. What a waste.

[@TheProgCorner]

You are a brave soul…

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Tho I walk through the valley of death, I shall fear no cancellation

[@applegrovebard]

The idea that the popular music of the 20th and 21st century is basically a continuation of the age of minstrelsy is fascinating. I don't think I'll be able to get out of my head the image of Mick Jagger as the descendant of the blackface entertainers, doing his own variation on the cakewalk.

[@TheAnadrome]

@@pentz1 Other way round,

[@applegrovebard]

@@pentz1 I wasn't really making a scholarly comment- but weren't the cakewalk and minstrelsy concurrent in the 19th century? And according to Wikipedia 'following an exhibition of the cakewalk at the 1876 Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia, the cakewalk was adopted by performers in minstrel shows.'

[@edwardyazinski3858]

Ah anyone forget Mick got dance lessons from Tina not to mimic her but just because he dug the way she danced? And way does the influence have to take on a negative connotation when we all know that Mick and Keith really just loved the music. Hell Mick dropped out of London School of Economics for what was at the time no sure thing. Bet Muddy Waters had a completely different take on the boys love of the blues and on stage antics. Tad cynical I think Andy.

[@edwardyazinski3858]

@@pentz1 The dozens, trading brags and insults has long been a part of early blues and eventually rap. Rappers I think would have like to think it all their own invention. Nothing new under the sun. But was rap a negative parody from starters gate or only later when it simply died on the vine of staleness?

[@edwardyazinski3858]

@@pentz1 not sure your point, yeah it may be crude but all the same RnR was/ is supposed to be nasty sweaty funky fuck you music at times. You want polite there is Lawerence Welk. Politically correct nope, rocking with one hell of a riff? Yep!

[@jvpresnall]

On the Native American angle, there’s the Mardis Gras Indian tradition from the mid 19th century, which in the 1970s led to the great album with the Wild Tchoupitoulas and the Meters.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I have a video in the can which touches on this

[@NoName-gh5mq]

Bro we are AMERICAN INDIANS, we are not AFRICANS

[@boris10shock]

So Who Called Jazz Music Jackass music when it first came out? and who made the laws back then that tried to have this genre destroyed?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

they werent trying to destroy it. The first Jazz record is Livery Stabkle Blues, where the musicians emulate animal noises. Braying donkey sounds were a staple of early jazz. It was a description of that.

[@soonone12345]

You're a sad man, may your day's be shorter than your tongue . Your a straight colonizers..😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@DeniDILOLOPodcast]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer keeping capping and trying get views. gfoh your assersion. Same with rock and roll right ? thats what you're trying to do foh.