Why I Dont Like The Three-Body Problem 🪐 Unpopular Opinion 2023 [CC]

[CC] Yes, I don't like it. This is almost the only book that I dislike with a passion. But please note that this is only my personal opinion, peace 🥹
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[@TheBookishLand]

Appendix: comparison of some og text and Ken Liu's translation, as well as the actual meanings of the text in English. Liu Cixin's og text: 菲律宾贡献给世界的第三个美女政治家，也是在这个职位上微机前后跨越两个时代的一位（刘慈欣，2008：42） Ken Liu's translation: The administration of this Filipino politician had straddled the pre- and post-crisis eras. (Liu, 2015:146) Actual meaning of the og text: The third *beautiful female politician contributed to the world* by the Philippines, also spanning two eras in this position before and after the advent of microcomputers. Liu Cixin's og text: “嗯？”美丽的舰长转过身来，她的双眸中映着银河系的星光。（刘慈欣，2010：Kindle 9204） Ken Liu's translation: "Hmm?" The captain turned around, her eyes shinning with the starlight of the Milky Way. (Liu, 2016) Actual meaning of the og text: "Hmm?" The *beautiful captain* turned around, her eyes shinning with the starlight of the Milky Way. Liu Cixin's og text: 嗯？咨询员漂亮的大眼睛从广告牌上探寻地看着逻辑。（刘慈欣，2010：Kindle 8641） Ken Liu's translation: "Hmm?" The big eyes of the counselor looked at Luo Ji quizzically. (Liu, 2016) Actual meaning of the og text: "Hmm?" The *beautiful big eyes* of the counselor looked at Luo Ji quizzically. Liu Cixin's og text: 她什么都不是，她只不过是个女人。（刘慈欣，2010：230） Ken Liu's translation: She was nothing. (Liu, 2016:371) Actual meaning of the og text: She was nothing, *just a woman* . Liu Cixin's og text: 她像个小泼妇一样一天与那六个女人打好几次架。（刘慈欣，2010:151） Ken Liu's translation: She fought the other woman, sometimes several times a day. (Liu. 2016:250) Actual meaning of the og text: She's *like a shrew* , fought the other woman, sometimes several times a day.

[@nemmaadeni]

Wowwwww... so much respect for Ken Liu for recognizing the unnecessary details and improving on the storytelling.

[@apocalypsereading7117]

oo i was excited for this so glad to have my expectations tempered 😅 i'll only be reading the English translation when i get round to it, but fascinating to know it might have been "tidied up" in terms of writing style and sexism... i found your thoughts and passion about this topic - especially about Western publishers and Chinese sci-fi - really valuable and informative 🙂

[@TheBookishLand]

Haha I heard the English one couldn’t overdo too much though 🙈 please let me know how do you think about it when you get to this book!

[@8stringedBeast]

Remember, every opinion is subjective. Also, she keeps saying male gaze problem despite the fact there's a lot of females leading projects and their tragedies aren't blown over as, say, a throw-away line.

[@rkgrkg]

Thanks for this video and your opinions. After I read a book, especially a challenging one like this, I like to learn more about it and the author, which includes finding various opinions on it. I found the comparisons you posted of the English and Chinese versions interesting, as well as your comments on the overall writing of the original and what Chinese books tend to get a translation.

[@squattycoati931]

Thank you for this! I just put this book down cause I couldn’t finish it and I’ve felt crazy cause everyone seems to love it

[@elenacrijanovschi7189]

I've just finished the trilogy. I enjoyed the first book, but second and third...it was hard. The only thing that kept me going is the science-fiction part and curiosity what will happen next? what ethical problem will appear? But after finishing I realised that it felt more like a list of cool things to happen in a series, rather than a well written series, and it left a sour taste for me.

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! I agree with you for the 2nd and 3rd book, someone commented before that reading them is like reading wikipedia, which is so unfortunate for a book with good ideas - so much potentials!

[@Bradgilliswhammyman]

@@TheBookishLand I think the fairy tale parables put people off because it draws the reader out of the main story.

[@PullDownTheMoon]

I did not realise that it had been adapted to a Netflix TV show! I've never read it but heard it was a "must-read." Interesting that the translated version corrected some of the problems, I forget how much goes into translation. Great summary of why you don't like this book and such an interesting point about how it has effected publishers choosing future Chinese science fiction books to translate. It definitely will have had a huge effect on it! For a rant video this was very tame, so you're all good!!

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you so much for the encouragement! 😘 Yea and book was huge and the fan base is very strong, and they also loved the show. But I just couldn’t stand it because of all the things in this video. Such a shame that Chinese sci-fi is represented by books like this :(

[@lissarice1876]

I've never read these, but feel like I have after your descriptions. Great review. I know it wasn't you're intention, but you really made me laugh.

[@TheBookishLand]

XD thank you so much! I’m glad this video gave you a general idea about this book and made you laugh 😅😅😅

[@artakan303]

Thank you for your point of view. I just finished the first book in french, and thought it was weird because of "chineese culture" as you said ... Although I kind of enjoyed the scientific ideas in the book, I will certainly not read the 2 other books, now that I understand why I was half bored during the reading ... But can you recommend a good chineese science-fiction book (also translated), so I can really see the difference, thank you.

[@caroline6790]

I read the first book in English, and hated it as well. So good to see this video! Thank you

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the English version, glad I’m not alone :D

[@MaryaHach]

Hi, I'm late to this video, but I'm glad I found it! As a translator myself, I wonder what you think of the English translation having a more polished language. On the one hand, I'm sure it contributed a lot to the work's success and its adaptation. However, I can't help but feel it's not the translator's job to rewrite a book to make it more palatable. If the style is bland in the original, shouldn't it be the same in the translation? I really have mixed feelings about this.

[@TheBookishLand]

Hi, sorry I am so late on the reply, I'm glad you found this video interesting! I have mixed feelings about language alters during translation as well. But because I didn't personally read the book in English, I couldn't tell about how exactly the translation worked on this book. But I agree with you, if the translator changed the tone of language usage, that might be crossing the line here.

[@MaryaHach]

@@TheBookishLand No problem, thanks for your reply :)

[@rkgrkg]

This is such an interesting point! I lean towards the side that the translation should follow the original. It reminds me of updating classics for 'modern audiences'. While this can be good to an extent, i.e. making it understandable without having to study it like another language, I still feel it should be done in a minimalistic way. Regardless of what the prose is like or what ideas we might disagree with.

[@susamirain]

Great review! I am currently studying Mandarin Chinese and came upon this book. I noticed early on some of the issues that you have mentioned. It definitely is misogynistic. I am unable to keep going with it due to many other writing style issues. You have done well! Keep up the great work.

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you so much, and I’m so glad you felt the same with the book. I was so frustrated when reading it and after that when hearing people admiring it. And wow your Mandarin must be so good to be able to read this book 🤩

[@mito._]

4:14 - Um, in the first example you gave about the girl with one eye... I didn't get anything "sexual" or "objectifying" from that. It was a scene describing a tragedy, and seemed to subvert the severity of the situation by adding a poetic description of those final moments. "Despite her injuries and that death was imminent, her final moments were filled with beautiful memories of that old 1967 sky." A rather harmless and delicately written scene, describing a character's final thoughts, letting the reader know that their final moments were filled with beauty, and not pain or suffering.

[@niktniktnawetnikt]

I really liked some of the ideas in the show so I decided to read the books and oh boy was it disappointing. I agree with your opinion, the characters felt flat and like they were just tools for authors ideas. I couldn’t relate to any of them, didn’t get their descisions and their relationships. Also, it really touched me when you mentioned about readers misunderstanding the authors misogyny as part of Chinese culture because initially I did that too. Thank you for clarifying and sharing your opinion, it’s great to hear from someone that read the original! If you have any recommendations for Chinese sci-fi that you actually enjoyed please share!

[@BoardGameClub]

I slogged through the first half of the book. I wasn’t sure if it was bad writing or translation issues.

[@cosynovelniche]

This one was on my backlist of things to watch for so long! I'm just laughing out loud al your disclaimer: I recommend you Boba and a bath ! 😂😂😂 I knew that when I saved the video a moment will arrive when I'll be tempted to read this book and I'll have to reference back to the video. Fortunately I remembered to watch it while being tempted to buy a used edition of this book. So money saved! Thank you for this video 💕 I loved that you mentioned the translation, because it sent me on a little mission and I discovered that the Italian translation was made by someone who has not studied Chinese, which means that the translation in Italian comes from an already "tampered" English translation

[@tenormin4522]

If one says "male gaze", the one is woke beyond repair. That "woked" quickly.

[@shinryusaiha]

When a character literally ordered a woman like a delivery pizza (and its treated as romantic) i knew i was in for some serious garbage.

[@jlastre]

The claim by other reviews is that the books also support fascist viewpoints. The more I learn about the book the less I am inclined to read it or view the shows.

[@FledgePaddock]

I recommend people search up and read the essay "The Three Body Problem: the Imperative of Survival and the Misogyny of Reactionary Rhetoric". It is pretty illuminating about rampant sociopolitical misogyny and anti-progressivism that has been edited out or toned down in translation to English. And the book's cult following by reactionary techno-nationalists, over the problematic and deliberate allegory of reimagining Sino-American geopolitical relations as xenophobic tensions between a militaristic genocidal humanity and genocidal technologically superior aliens. The allegory won't be detected by most Western readers of the English translation, and definitely won't come across in the Netflix retelling.

[@ChibiKibou]

I tried to read Three Body after all the noise, and while these points definitely smacked me... what *I* don't get is the arguments that it's held up by its science. Its science is awful! Character is a genius because he correctly predicted GM crops cause birth defects and environmental calamity? Right sure and I guess moonlight gives you cancer and air makes your foot fall off. And Alpha Centauri isn't a chaotic system; it's a little binary pair with a boring third meandering in a stable orbit on the fringes! Microwaves don't work like that, videogames *definitely* don't work like that... and even if they did the entire narrative purpose served by said game is thrown away when it's abruptly summarised with 'oop we have to turn the game off now we're not going to finish the story or say why, but the aliens were totally awesome just look at all these high flyers who agree because we said so'. ... Oh right and the whole 'scientists commit suicide because of contradictory experimental data' thing. Set aside for a minute the fact the author apparently got bored and didn't bother exploring that idea, introduce me to a researcher who'd be depressed in the face of *new science.* *Augh.* ... Thank you for posting this >.> Ugh I wish I could let this go, the whole way this is spreading its tendrils into the public consciousness is making me ill. I had to go looking to see if I was going mad with all the praise it was getting after given up at the 2/3s mark, but really, you can't mistranslate factual statements. What made me laugh though was it got nuclear weapons *right.* It was actually fun to see someone point out nukes are actually quite delicate at their core, and you can stop a nuclear explosion by damaging the device.

[@bravadita]

Have you finished the series? Curious as to what your, isolated, opinion is on Cheng Xin.

[@TheBookishLand]

Hi, I have finished the series, but honestly it was 10 years ago, so my memories about details are vague, so I don't think I can talk about Cheng Xin elaborately :)

[@nemmaadeni]

@@TheBookishLand I think they're referring to the Netflix TV adaptation! Cheng Xin is one of the characters in that. I really enjoyed her character in the TV show.

[@Kevin-to7uy]

​@@nemmaadeni I don't think the adaptation that was mentioned in this video is the Netflix one, as it hadn't been released at the time. There's a Chinese series from a year ago that's 30 episodes long and pretty much a scene by scene recreation of the first book. Jin Cheng in the Netflix series is their version of Cheng Xin, a character from the third book. In the book, her story started in the present day, then goes way forward into the future. The Netflix show just included her present day stuff in season 1. I think the Netflix series is doing a much better job with the characters. It has some issues, but overall I really enjoyed it. Jin Cheng was definitely my favorite character in the show.

[@flimmii07]

@@Kevin-to7uy funny, I discovered the book via the netflix serie, I kept reading about how superior the book was, but I ... kinda disagree? I feel like the show made the characters much more interesting and fleshed out (also, they have female characters), and the pacing is smoother I find

[@kathp.2407]

Thank you for your video, an exchange student from China recommended the first book to me and I was so excited to read it. ( I read a lot of SF) Around the middle it really got difficult to continue and the last 100 pages I just skimmed and was so disappointed ... now the only thing I am happy about is that I bought it second hand, so I did not support that author!

[@TheBookishLand]

Oh thank you for your comment! I'm sorry you went into this book with high expectations, I am truly sorry and disappointed about how Chinese sci-fi is represented by this book. Glad you found some resonation with this video. And bravo for buying this book second hand and not supporting the author!

[@HERObyPROXY]

Since my Mandarin started to improve, I keep getting recommended the Three Body Problem but I've been reticent since hearing your opinion about it in past videos. I agree with your point that science fiction needs to have literary quality and not stand on its speculative ideas alone. Unfortunately, I find that much science fiction doesn't even really have interesting fictional science either. Most of the time, you can read about the same ideas online without putting yourself through the torture of someone's bad attempt at writing fiction. Combine already well-known ideas and bad writing and much science fiction is just awful. The reverse is when a well-written narrative actually draws out the significance of those ideas and is able to explore them in a way that a Wikipedia article, say, cannot. It sounds to me like Three Body Problem doesn't do that and is just a bad series that has captured the imaginations of those who haven't read about its speculative science beforehand or who have a high tolerance for poor writing.

[@TheBookishLand]

Congrats on your Mandarin level and also for not wasting your time on this book! Im so happy my past videos helped a bit on saving your time 😂 I’m so frustrated every time people forgive the writing just because the speculative idea. I think I can stand a book with great idea but mediocre writing, however the writing of this book doesn’t even exist :( so sad it’s one of the most popular Chinese sci-fi out there. Have you been able to enjoy other Chinese books?

[@HERObyPROXY]

@@TheBookishLand thank you! I’m really enjoying learning Chinese! I’m very slowly making my way through Lu Xun’s 呐喊 although the Chinese is a little difficult for me. I’ve mostly read short stories, including Hong Xiao’s short story 手. I’m really enjoying learning about the social problems and views of early twentieth century China that the authors give in their work. I’m also planning on getting some of the books you reviewed in your recent Chinese novels videos! It might take a little work to get them to where I live but I’m going to ask some Chinese friends if they can give me some advice on how to do it 😃

[@TheBookishLand]

@@HERObyPROXY 呐喊 can be a difficult book to read even for native speakers! I've never read 手 and now I am intrigued. Glad you enjoyed modern classics so much! Yea it's a bit tricky acquiring books from China, I had to ask my partners to help me using their Chinese phone number. A lot of things are hard if you don't have a Chinese phone number :( I hope you end up getting some books and like them! Free feel to reach out to me on IG as well if you need help 😃

[@flimmii07]

Glad to see I'm not the only one feeling iffy about the book! I wanted to read it after watching the netflix series and hearing about how the immensely better the book was... so far I'm not convinced. I'm also struggling with the flat characters and the weird pacing. It abruptly alternates between slow scenes with vivid details, and fast-paced matter-of-fact description. And I was disappointed when I realized that all the main characters were men. I'm only halfway in the first book, but so far, I prefer the netflix version: more fleshed out characters that you can root for, including female characters, smoother pacing. But don't tell anybody, I might get strangled for saying that 😅

[@xiomara4775]

Although I really enjoyed the books, I felt the same about the misogyny and male-gaze. It has happened to me in many otherwise interesting works, so I'm just used to try and enjoy the rest of it despite the problematic aspects. But you are totally right and I hope better-written and diverse chinese fiction gets to be translated. I read a Spanish translation and I think the translator made up for some of the bad writing (I took Chinese basics as an Spanish speaker so I'm aware of the huge syntactical abyss between the two), yet the whole Zhuang Yan arc still sounded weird.

[@TheBookishLand]

I can relate to the "trying to ignore certain parts to enjoy books" feeling so much. So bad that sometimes we as readers need to compromise like that, esp when it comes to books that have potential like this one. I have not heard about anyone talking about the Spanish translation before, thanks for sharing your thoughts! Especially you came from a perspective of speaking both languages. Very interesting to see how the Spanish translator needed to made up for the writing as well (extra work for translators? lol). Glad you were able to enjoy the other aspect of the book though, the scope is really special.

[@NomadicBrian]

I've been trying out Audible as a way to catch up on books sometimes when I code or want to lay my head on a pillow and drift into it. There was a lot of hype for the book so I got the first 3 books in the series. I have finished the first which was translated and read in English so I can't speak to the original written material. I would say I was not as engaged as I have been with say Azimov series books. A couple of months later I had to look up the characters that were in book 2. I did that because I didn't connect with all the characters in the first book. In book 2 I am looking for a little more. I do like some of the math the idea of trying to stop science and looking for a clear message that I can either agree or disagree with. I'd say I'm still a fence sitter 1/3 into the second book.

[@stevenclubb7718]

After watching the Chinese adaptation and listening to the audiobook, it really felt like the adaptation was the final draft. Still had a lot of problems with characters speaking in exposition dumps, but enough was added to the secondary characters that I enjoyed my time with them. The two main characters were the exception with the better written Ye only being slightly better than her book version, while Wang was the most boring protagonist I think I ever encountered in both. He's a little better fleshed out in the adaptation, but to externalize his thinking, he ends up being led by his nose to every solution and comes across as clueless. The Netflix version is my favorite, but I did enjoy the Chinese adaptation quite a bit, while I don't think much of the novel beyond its concepts.

[@ollieanntan4478]

I've only read the English version 9f the first book, but from what you're saying, it seems like there were liberal changes to not just the prose but also the actual story. I don't remember feeling the 15 year old who was killed was subject to the male gaze. It seemed more about an innocent 15 year old who deeply believes the cause, running into the true consequences of war. I also feel like the main female character (I can't remember her name now, but the woman scientist) is considered extremely smart by her peers. One thing I liked about her character was she continues to follow her convictions even in the face of getting old, and even when it involves being extremely ruthless. I still wasn't a huge fan of the book, as I overall found it boring and meandering. I don't feel like they explained people's motivations well, or developed the characters mich. But I do think some of the flaws you mention were edited out, for the better.

[@kundanchhabra]

Appreciate this review! What other Chinese sci fi books and authors you recommend instead?

[@TheBookishLand]

Thanks! unfortunately like I said, 3 body problem put me off reading Chinese sci-fi for 10 years, so I am slowly getting back to the genre and still on the look out for books as well 🥹

[@AlexBlackReads]

Damn this is a roast lol (I have no opinion since I never read them, but I enjoyed your video)

[@TheBookishLand]

😆 glad you enjoyed this video!

[@carbonc6065]

@@TheBookishLand Yes, you're very entertaining!

[@Nachtschicht1]

I really feel lucky that there is a german audio play of the book, which is about a fourth of the actual audiobooks in length. I tried listening to the actual audiobook but it seemed to be so protracted with endless boring descriptions of the society and their "typical" people, which didn't add to the story for me. I agree with you in the point that most characters are pretty flat, but I wasn't sure if that was just because I listened to a shortened version. I really liked the story as a whole and in the short form I heared, it seemed pretty well represented, just without all the boring padding. Still a good part of the exaggerated use of decorative adjectives came through. It reminded me a bit of H.P. Lovecraft and his contemporaries. As of the misogyny you described, most of that seem to have been lost in the version I heared. About your examples, I wouldn't necessarily see them as misogynistic but rather as just plain distasteful and unnecessary in this story. If I compare that to one of the most distasteful (but still very good) books I ever read, American Psycho, they aren't needed for anything, while in American Psycho all the pedantic little details strengthened the picture of the twisted mind of the main protagonist.

[@TheBookishLand]

Oh glad there were German audio play that's accessible to you! I can imagine how interesting it is after adapting to an audio play :D And yes, maybe the format doesn't necessarily show the writing problems I discussed in the video. I agree with you - I can see how the "core story" would be very interesting, but the writing really just gave me a bitter taste that prevented me to enjoy the story. Glad you were able to enjoy it to an extend - and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Still impressed by the fact that it has a German audio play :D fascinating!

[@sjg6847]

I am the book fan and I read the mandarin version. I love those science ideas and imaginations, especially the descriptions on the future society and the dark forest theory, which is really inspiring and quite different from other science fictions I've read before. I still remember how excited I was when I first read about the dart forest theory and I almost stay up all night to finish that book. But I need to admit that the author Liu is an engineer more than a writer, and the writing is not good. So the literature value of this series is definitely not that high. And Liu admitted that he tried to include his thoughts on China's modern history from 1840s into this book series. So there is no wonder that those guys, who are not familiar with Chinese modern history after 1840s, will find this book series kind of difficult to read and hard to chew over. But I still recommend those readers that you can try to focus on the science fiction part and just neglect those society part, the dark forest theory is really wonderful.

[@muskyoxes]

What is the alternative? I've only recently started trying to find Chinese literature, and all I find are tragedies about poverty and oppression, or just ordinary living type stuff, or inevitably male historical stuff. Where do i go to find epic plots and big fun ideas?

[@TheBookishLand]

Hi, thanks for your question/comment! I agree with you, it's very hard for me to find Chinese literature that have been translated into other languages outside of suffereing/historical/heavy stuff. I think it's more because how the overseas book market project Chinese books. I hope this will change one day and more and more books will get translated one day! With that being said, I read a delightful Chinese urban fantasy last year and loved it, it's called Strange Beasts of China by Yan Ge, maybe you will like it :)

[@muskyoxes]

@@TheBookishLand Thanks. It'd be nice to know something amazing you've read that hasn't been translated. My reading ability is climbing slowly...

[@TheBookishLand]

Ah I see! I read two great Chinese books, one is mystery called 鱼猎 by 史迈, it's talking about a girl who went into a comma, and after waking up, she claims she's another girl who died a year ago. Another one is called 潮汐图 by 林棹, this is an historical fantasy and the protagonist is a giant frog. It's talking about history of southern part of China, very fascinating! But the language in this book is a bit harder than 鱼猎. Hope you find more books in Chinese you like :)

[@Adrian-mu8gg]

finally! you speak my mind. I had doubts on my feelings towards this book when mostof the reviews i read were praising it...

[@TheBookishLand]

I can so relate! I used to doubt my feelings because of all the praise too, especially there’re so many irl friends of mine loved the book. But after so many years I learnt to trust myself and think critically. Glad you resonated with this video, you’re not alone! 😃

[@poposterous236]

I'm only partially familiar with the series, but so much of its concepts and themes seem rooted in a very juvenile view of the universe. For all of its smart ideas, its just stating a hypothesis that xenophobia is law. The problem is, we already see the hypothesis fail in action. If we view the world as a microcosm of the universe, why do we have international trade? Why haven't we nuked ourselves out of existence? Why did we stop killing each other and start trading, intermarrying, drinking together? There's a reason to be afraid of the unknown. Stranger danger and all that. But to state that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is full of dangerous boogiemen that will embark on a 300 year road trip to kill you simply because they learned you exist, without any prior knowledge or personal stake... Maybe somebody needs to get out of the house more often. Carl Sagan was probably more on point with Contact. It's underwhelming but also the most likely scenario. We're just all just waving at each other's lonely little stars from thousands of years away...

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! I completed agree with you - the books delivered a very shallow world view that based on xenophobia (on top of all the problems I discussed in the video). I think sadly people's imagination is limited by how materialism the society is. (And this is yet another sci-fi book that centered around anthropocentrism, or even in a smaller scale, nationalism - but maybe it's just me). I loved that you stated the problem of being afraid of unknown. Imo it's what holding human (and humanities) back.

[@Nopethebdndjdj]

Stuff like this is exactly why the 2nd sword welder failed

[@SunburnCity]

@@Nopethebdndjdj Oh don't be such a fatalist! At least be a pragmatist, then you would understand that almost all evidence from our world and most conjectures we develop based on the fermi paradox question, point away from the dark forest as the likely solution. It's just not practicable to have an attitude that leads to this outcome.

[@jamesomeara2329]

My curiosity I guess is did anyone find the militarism of both the West and China as this overly positive thing kind of off-putting? I found the science side interesting, but when militarism seems glorified, it leads to kind of a take that all other social structures get to answer to it. Perhaps that is just me

[@TheBookishLand]

that's a very interesting take on the book! I can see the strong militarism in the story, however, since I read it so long ago, I don't think I can have a well rounded discussion about it - let's hope someone will answer you here in the comment in the future

[@LunaciaBooks]

I read the first Three-Body problem book for the Hugo's a few years ago, and didn't like it either! I did NOT vote for it. I have been feeling so alone in not liking it. 😅 I felt as the first book alone just dragged out. So repetative. It has been translated into Norwegian later, and I have debated on reading it in Norwegian, but decided not to. Great video!

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you so much. No you’re not alone! I think this book did a good job disguise itself under a scientific idea to make readers overlook its flaws. And glad you didn’t waste time on it anymore 😃

[@elizabethgardner6832]

I've seen this book many times and have contemplated reading it. After your first example, I've decided it's not for me. I don't like violence at all. Thank you for saving me the trouble of trying to read it and being disappointed.

[@TheBookishLand]

Oh yea I’m glad you saw this video then 😂 I generally don’t recommend people wasting time on this book, and certainly not if you don’t love violence 🥰

[@Hunpecked]

Checking out the books before reading, I read a few reviews that said they were difficult to read (in English). I read plot summaries and was put off by plot holes, poor science, and "technologies" that were no more than space magic. I found both TV adaptations mildly entertaining, but now I have even less incentive to read the books.

[@JamesSimmonsBJ]

I would say that the science in the books is quite good. Well above average. When you consider how many science fiction stories depend on faster than light travel or describe planets with multiple suns where that has no consequences for anyone living there, or future societies where princesses are still a thing, you have to give the author credit. At least I do.

[@Hunpecked]

@@JamesSimmonsBJ FTL communication via quantum entanglement is as "impossible" as FTL travel. The "three body problem" is solvable by brute force computation. The sun can't be used as a 12,000 megahertz radio amplifier. The Alpha Centauri system is not visible from Inner Mongolia. The extra dimensions of string theory are minute, not cosmic, planetary, or even basketball in size. We don't have cryohibernation or super sharp nanowires. The second book adds far-out weaponry that destroys stars or flattens entire star systems into two dimensions. The author makes up as much "science" as other sci fi writers and is less logical than some.

[@Hunpecked]

@@JamesSimmonsBJ The three body problem can be solved by brute force computation. We can do it, so the more advanced San-Ti can do it better. The sun can't be used as a 12,000 megahertz amplifier. Alpha Centauri isn't visible in Inner Mongolia. Planets can exist in stable orbits around each of Alpha Centauri's stars. And so on. Liu's more fantastic "science" is as far out as science fiction gets, so I really don't see how these books got their reputation as "hard" science fiction.

[@JamesSimmonsBJ]

@@Hunpecked Speaking as someone who enjoys the works of Arthur C. Clarke, Robert A. Heinlein, and Isaac Asimov, I think these three books are as "hard" as anything they did. If you watch the film 2001 A Space Odyssey you'll see many places where the film got scientific details wrong, but the filmmakers made such an honest effort to get the details right that these can be forgiven.

[@wd357dui]

I was searching for reviews for the recent Netflix adaptation version, and I was looking for people's reactions to the showrunners' (lack of) respect for the source material; I was initially a little disappointed at KZbin for the search result, but I held back the urge to close this video and made it to the end. I must say that I agree with your opinions, this certainly gave me more perspective. I didn't read the book, but I watched the Chinese TV series version which is said to be completely loyal to the source material, from there I was feeling a little insufferable but couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time; now I know that it's because about how people in the story are so... "dumb" in the sense of emotional intellect.

[@peterlast4775]

You are right on all counts. I hated the Three Body Problem so very much. I thought for sure it couldn't get worse but it did. The two sequels each got successively more terrible.

[@ThatsSoPoe]

😂I mean, everything you said is pretty similar to what I've heard about it. Maybe some cool sci-fi ideas, but the male gaze & lack of depth of characters made it so I've not been interested in picking it up.

[@TheBookishLand]

I’m glad you’ve been hearing similar opinions, all i heard about it somehow are all praise, maybe because the opinions and reviews I heard are from Chinese reading community, which has a large hardcore fan base of this book who defend it like crazy :(

[@curioushmm9027]

i certainly did enjoy it and i don't think you ever did a negative review like this but this one was powerful and seems very justified..wow those really were women as objects even in death/

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you so much for your encouragement! I was so nervous when making this video that I had a drink before filming 😂 so happy you found the argument justified!

[@curioushmm9027]

@@TheBookishLand 😀🍹

[@DL-idk]

I agree that better written Chinese novels aren't getting enough attention and it's hard for most of them to get a decent translation. I read in Chinese mainly since it's my native language. There are MANY good stories I've come across that I WISH could be translated. But they are not, because they are just some small web novels and don't have authors as big as Cixin Liu.

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you! I’m glad you resonated with this opinion! I read mostly in English nowadays but I’d love to dive back into Chinese books. Which are some of your favorite?

[@andrewlim9345]

Thanks for your thought Meniocorn. Cixin Liu seems to struggle with misogyny. Ken Liu when translating the English version certainly scrubbed the problematic misogynistic issuss with Liu's novels. Many successful authors have flaws or controversial views. H.P. Lovecraft was a racist while JK Rowling is critical of the transgender movement. Frank Herbert also had some ingrained homophobia. We can appreciate great writing while not being blind to their creators' flaws. The Netflix adaption is a loose one that injects more humanity, diversity and female characters into the Three Bodies Problem.

[@sigeliu4256]

I think all books have their purpose, Three Body Problems Trilogy is NOT focused on characters and literature. It's about science and the universe. I know that people got put off because of the poor literature and the uninteresting bit in the beginning. But do you read the bible because you are driven by the characters or by the purposes and the ideas? I think sometime, one needs to look at the bigger picture instead of focusing on the itty bitty, otherwise, we would always be stuck in one place. This feels like an engineer is busy creating a space ship to save the humanity and his wife is complaining about why he didn't put the dishes in the dishwasher.

[@alphatrece9208]

I don't think it's right to excuse bad prose in pursuit of ideas when there are writers who take care of both aspects like Ken Liu or Ted Chiang.

[@Itory1337]

In the first book about the science fiction vector, the book series bends itself to the reader: Everyone can identify with something in the book, regardless of their position. With the second book, however, this stops, the "sci" part decreases, the "fi" part increases drastically - and I emphasized: drastically - and the rest is fiction. It's a possible extrapolation based on what we assume today, but many things have been disproven in recent years, months, weeks. Theoretically, string theory is also true. Theoretically. They are scientific assumptions. The social aspect is also based on assumptions. The statement that we should shut up and not say anything about the universe because it will kill us is based on human theories, which do not necessarily have to be those of others. PBS on KZbin has looked at the pros and cons and does a pretty well job explaining it. Something, the book misses completely - but then it's only Scifi. Basically, this book series is not badly told, but like Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code, it is a mixture of very few truths, many assumptions and in the end it is good entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. But what we are already seeing is a manifested fear of the darkness of the universe and what lurks there, there have been and are now increasingly groups openly rebelling against anyone broadcasting into space (as if that could be avoided, we have been broadcasting for ages...). But there are many solutions to the Fermi Paradox, many are even worse, but ironically one of them is that in mutual fear and mistrust we disrupt and ultimately destroy ourselves in our development. What an irony.

[@dawelimey9819]

I read the Eng version and misogyny were obvious. The 2nd and 3rd books were the worst offenders. Passage from Dark Forest where Luo Ji met Zhuang Yan was just pure male fantasy. A lot of fans attacked the weak female characters as if these were proof as to why female should not be left in charge.

[@zrogon]

I'm suffering through the Dark Forest right now... my god... could it be that the english translation sucks? I don't know, the story itself is dragging, but the style of writing is just killing my soul.

[@neginsahraee]

Dark forest was the worst and by far the most mysogenic one of this triology… I could comfortably say if I skipped second book fully and moved to deaths end, would have missed absolutely nothing.

[@OmnipotentO]

I think those are fair points and real problems but I still greatly enjoyed the overall points and the ideas of the story. The violence in the beginning is a bit gratuitous I agree but I think it was to emphasize the real violence that happened during that time. I also agree that all of the characters felt very flat and 1 dimensional but disagree in that the main villain (spoiler) is a very smart woman with deeper motivations for doing what she did. She was prob the only character with actual depth though. She did not come off as soft and delicate to me at all but sharp and intelligent. I'd even argue she's the actual main character. The main dude is very flat and one-note. He's more like a vehicle to tell her story. I also trust your judgment in that a lot probably gets lost in the translation.

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I'm truly happy that you were able to enjoy this book, I have some irl friends who loved this book because of the scientific ideas, and I totally get it. And I think your point of the gratuitous writing about the violence in the beginning was prolly a reflection of that time is good and valid. I remember I had problem with the main villain that you mentioned when I read it, but it was so long ago so I can't quite remember why lol. But thanks for your discussion 😊 It's really refreshing to see comments that are here to have a friendly talk under this video lol

[@aleph2d]

This was very entertaining

[@selocan469]

Yep, the writing sucks obviously. He sound like he found teared bodies sexy, lovely and romantic. But, what is thing with misogyny that you so stuck with. Did you find it misogynic that girl body is described too weak and fragile and hence writer is trying to deliberately downplay the physical strength of women with his description of the scene and convince the audience that women are weak or something... I mean what? How did we get to the point that some sadistic militants turning the body someone they killed into sponge suddenly gain a misogynic viewpoint just because body is a woman body. Does any writer have to describe such a scene with a male body to escape that? I do not get what you mean? Sorry. His descriptions makes no sense to that, to that I agree, it is unnecessarily obscene which means writer is after shitty intense drama for the sell. But misogyny, that simply escapes me. I just started to watch you because you stated that a science fiction should have scientific bases supported by existing literature which I very agree to, but all I hear was misogyny and sexists. Wow! Not even one single example of bad and unfounded science presented here which is matters a lot since it is supposed to be a science fiction. Bravo!

[@jellybeans4119]

Such an interesting review, thank you! I really loved Three Body Problem but I read the English translation so maybe it was smoothed out like you mentioned (although not sure how I feel about the translator doing that…). My only qualm with it was the lowkey/highkey misogyny which is why I never continued the series cause I heard it gets worse…and I guess now you’ve validated that 😂 I would be interested to read the book again, either in English or Chinese, to see how it holds up to my memory, but too many other books to read first! Wondering what Chinese (sci-fi?) books you think should be translated? I would love to read more!

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it and also found this video helpful on validating the misogyny part 😂 Please keep me updated if you read the book again XD I was put off reading sci-fi for like 10 years and now just slowly getting back to it. I will let you guys know if I found books I like XD

[@thiagof414]

Thank you.

[@TheBookishLand]

thank you.

[@reteraya]

I'm happy you made this video. The book didn't work for me either! I read it in English, and while I thought the translator had a decent English prose style (and friends who've read the original suggest he also re-ordered some scenes?), my problem was just that I found it so misanthropic. It seemed that every single character had either done something awful in the past, or went on to do something awful by the end as if turning into a horrible person were inevitable. And the author's note at the end suggests he intended to portray humanity as irredeemable, so I didn't care to read past the first book; I understand that he witnessed some disturbing historical events in his life, but this worldview put me off. I absolutely get the sense of some wonderfully imaginative literature coming out of the Chinese-speaking world, and I agree with you that what's available in translation doesn't do justice to the variety of what's being written. I wish more of it could be translated for us 不會讀中文書的人 to experience!

[@DL-idk]

As a Chinese reader, I think I get what you are trying to say. I have problem with many Chinese novels because of how dark they protray humanity. Good people are rare and oftentimes written as stupid and naive. Most of them would either go through a "realisation and growth" and become worse versions of themselves or end up miserable because some bad people "outsmart" them. Not all books are like this of course. I've seen well written novels with really good characters. What saddens me is that some readers would call these books naive and think it is unrealistic that the genuinly good characters could have a happy ending at all. It seems to me that they have a twisted world view of what's childish and what's "adult". They want to punish the good and reward the bad, for whatever reasons I don't know.

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the English version! The point you brought up about misanthropic is very interesting and make sense. I forgot a lot of the plots in the book because it’s so long ago, so all I got left in me was the feelings 😂 I think the misanthropic may also be a contributor to the “flatness” of things in the book, nothing is 3-dimensional. Things are either black or white and are from the author’s limited understanding of the world😒 I do hope there’re more books getting translated, so frustrated to see this book is the one people talking about when they’re talking about Chinese sci-fi.

[@TheBookishLand]

Just like in 3 body how “good” people are naive, I think it’s a pattern of thinking that are trained over the years sadly. Thanks for your discussion! @DL-idk

[@jukio02]

I think it's because in China, they have a more realistic view of the world. In the western world, everyone likes everything all cute and cuddly.

[@SurvivenTerry]

I like it because it's a Chinese person who can understand subtleties and euphemisms...there is a reason why alot of people in America like it. It's beautiful and drawn out with less filler and more explanation

[@yseson_]

I thought i was the only one who did not care for this series, and I upon trudging the slog thought that perhaps i was missing something culturally in the way the characters especially the women were written and did (wrongly) surmise that it must be the result of my disconnect from Chinese culture.

[@SluggishReader]

The English translation of the first book is on my shelf and I'm still quite interested in it. I'm curious to see how much of the male gaze-y writing remains. Describing chests with 柔嫩 is just ewwwwwww.. 🤮🤮🤮 Also agreed on the limited selection of foreign books being translated - I'd love to be in the ideal world where every writer gets translated properly. Do you have any recommendation on Chinese sci fi?

[@TheBookishLand]

RIGHT!? It’s like what the hell, seriously!? I actually don’t have a good answer for Chinese sci-fi recommendation because this book puts me off sci-fi for 10 years and I’m just slowly getting back to it 😂 I’ll try to find some and let you guys know!

[@aliendelivery]

Yeah because we all know that chests can only be 坚挺.

[@smapro249]

I don't get so called "male gaze". Imp, The scripts from that book seem to describe the brutal of the that event, and you can also change that girl to a kid or boy. And Cixin Liu always take this kind of style to tell story probably because it could express clearer how cold the universe is even given the warm humanity.

[@TheBookishLand]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :) You are right, the brutality would still shine through if we change the girl to a boy or a kid in my examples. However, my impression for the book was based on the whole series, not only the pits and bits I was able to include in the video. And it's ok that we have totally different opinions on that - isn't that the beauty of reading? Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts, happy reading!

[@MrZerakian]

Im so glad to find this video. I just finished the first book today..my god it felt like I was reading a rough draft. No I am not an author of any sort, but I've read an awful lot of novels over the years and this was just really difficult to read.

[@trapozlite4487]

May have been poorly translated from mandarin

[@EC-ol8nz]

😮 Sounds like a person fascinated with GORE like overly gratuitous T & A or Horror Japanese Anime. A person who writes like this is probably a “Basket Case”. Who doesn’t know what is appropriate in social situations. Very awkward writing to include beauty and gore in a serious realistic sci-fi setting. If you look at the movie the “Thing” desolations, paranoia, and unknowable gore fit together. If the camera man focuses on a gory aspect and characters say “Awe that is soo cute” Something is wrong!!! 😮 Like the newer Aliens movie when the guy sees a Tentacle/snake right before it pierces his head. He says something like “Awe come here little guy”.... WTF!!!!😮

[@TheBookishLand]

That's a very interesting analogy! And I haven't watched the newer Aliens movie, but the scene you described was so wrong and shocking 😳 Thanks for your comment and input ☺️

[@Nubbdy]

Yup, the misogyny is **clear and undeniable** . Yet the science fiction is **truly unique and brilliant** . As an Indian reader, the racism is also quite apparent. Yet, I have learnt to come to terms with these issues, it's just an everyday thing in any piece of media I consume. You are right about literary quality. Had he put out his idea as something that walks a line between a thought experiment and a popular science essay, it would best suit his abilities. But in the absence of any other medium in which this idea may be conveyed... I will still recommend this book to folks into this sort of stuff. Peppered with the obvious warning about racism and misogyny.

[@1book1review]

I heard of its bad female presentation before, but also so much praise that I keep getting tempted when I see it. But this just sounds so awful. Thanks for taking this off my internal to read list. There are so many better SF books out there, although I admit I couldn't really point to some greeat ones in translation of the top of my head. Great video!

[@TheBookishLand]

Thank you so much! Sorry I am late on replaying. I'm glad you found this video helpful! I totally agree that we should spend our precious reading time on other great books!

[@janboow]

I bought and read the original Chinese version of this book more than ten years ago when it came out. At first I really wanted to give up, but I gradually became attracted to the scientific concepts and world developments in the book. In the end I accepted the book as mediocre in terms of characterization because the book was so different and it wasn't the characters that drove the plot, it was the science. Later, the second and third parts were even more eye-opening for me.

[@DoubleJack777]

The second and third book sucked but not bc misogy but for repetitive nonsense.😂

[@supalognon]

From Death's End: "Of course, these elite experts didn’t expect a mere technical aide to have any brilliant ideas, but they were mostly men, and they thought that by giving her a chance to talk, they would have a perfect excuse to appreciate her physical attributes. Cheng Xin had always made an effort to dress conservatively, but this sort of harassment was something she had to deal with constantly." Then the character, Cheng Xin, goes on and manages to convince the arrogant audience on her idea. Is this scene mysoginistic ? I'm not saying Liu Cixin is a feminist because I realy don't think he is. However, at least, he seems to aware of the issues.

[@Unknown-us3ii]

From what I've read the story is simply stupid cuz the aliens are written so overpowered and inconsistent, yet you focus the beginning of the video talking about how you didn't like the way they write about a character's body XD That's like saying "I don't like math cuz my teacher is mean".

[@Tom-fb4gz]

@TheBookishLand I agree. Can you recommend any good works of contemporary Chinese literature? I’m studying Chinese and would like to be able to get into a good book. So far, I haven’t been able to find one. What I’ve been able to find is full of misogyny, gross descriptions of bodily fluids, and exaggerated depictions of desperation, suffering and agony.

[@ziyunwang9393]

Seriously that’s one of the most sexiest and misogynistic book I have ever read, I remember there is a quote “ the theoretical physics is not for women, women are not built for abstract and logical thinking.” As a woman studying physics I’m like: WTF are you talking about 😅😅😅😅

[@TheBookishLand]

Haha I know right, and thanks for the quote! I will use that next time as an example when I need to talk about this with people (run into people irl who love this series a lot... unfortunately)

[@AA-dj1vz]

😂😂

[@DanielleTinkov]

Tbf, western science fiction is quite sexist (ironic considering it was invented by a woman) and this only started to change in the 1980s with authors challenging the tropes of the genre. The problem is that with rare exceptions, most SciFi is written by older men that tend to be quite pervy and approach their female characters as voyeurs. The books more often than not revolve around adventuring young man that solve cosmic puzzles while women are in support roles at best. This is the main reason, I read science fiction quite selectively now and with few exceptions (like Ian Banks or Alastair Reynolds) almost always written by women.

[@goldie2525]

Vielen Dank für die Einschätzung. Ich quäle mich immer durch Bücher, wenn ich die Protagonisten nicht mag. Bei dieser Buchreihe ist das ganz besonders schlimm. Ja, in Teil eins gibt es eine Protagonistin, aber wer verhält sich so irrational, egoistisch und sorry:dämlich, obwohl diese Person Astrophysikerin ist. Natürlich eine Frau. Und dann dieser männliche Blick, ja wirklich … Wie bei Science fiction der 1950er. Danke, dass das mal jemand feststellt. Ganz davon abgesehen, dass Science fiction für mich in der Zukunft spielen sollte. Der zweite Teil mit einem ebenso unsympathischen männlichen Protagonisten war für mich aber leider auch eine Quälerei. Und da werden selbst Frau und Tochter nur war gewordene Phantasien, keine Menschen mit Persönlichkeit. Ich lese die Bücher, da ich seit Jahren nur Science fiction lese und das ja preisgekrönte moderne Klassiker sein sollen. Also darf ich auch Teil drei in Angriff nehmen. Ich freue mich leider nicht darauf, denn ich habe wenig Hoffnung, dass es nun anders wird. Schade. Es gab viel versprechende Ideen. Und im Buch werden Nichtigkeiten jedes Mal auf über 800 Seiten aufgebläht… Danke nochmal für die erste konstruktive Kritik zwischen den ganzen Lobgesängen und sorry, das hier ist auch nur eine persönliche Meinung. Viele Grüße aus Deutschland

[@MUXI_]

Nice review! It is a high-concept book and characters are not important. This book introduces philosophical ideas, religious beliefs, politics, human minds rather than trying to be a literature book. Perhaps, it requires an open mind to read San-ti.

[@jamesrowsell9346]

Funny, I thought the over all story was ok and there were some nice parts but the characters were incredibly weak. Like the chain smoking grizzled police officer seemed like such a cliche. I thought this was a translation issue. Thanks for clearing that up. Bad writing makes more sense.

[@mattgilbert7347]

I find the entire Dark Forest thesis to be dubious at best and kinda dumb at worst. It lacks imagination. The author projects a selective account of human history (VERY limited) and a completely inadequate view of "human nature' (I prefer "species being") and projects these assumptions and biases onto an unimaginably advanced and alien species. I mean.. it's not that smart. Parts of it remind me of silly conspiracy theories like Project Blue Beam. It's sooo misanthropic as to be irredeemable. It's also too ideological for my taste. I don't know that it's misogynistic. I do know that it's misanthropic. I think if you go looking for something like "male gaze" you will find it everywhere. You will find it even when it isn't there. Seek, and ye shall find. This is the disease that has inflected the Left and turned us away from the struggle for Socialism and Emancipation and locked us in Mark Fisher's "Vampire Castle" where purity tests and cancel culture replace critical theory and the ability to, ya know, *think rationally*

[@Bradgilliswhammyman]

I"ve been listening to the audiobook series and while it was difficult to get into as time goes by I find its philosophical expositions fascinating. The science he touches on is interesting...there are plot issues particularly toward the end but there are real gems of insight throughout the series.

[@gg_23452]

yesss!!! thank you for making this video! I'm sick of people looking past and excusing all the problematic parts of this series just bc they liked the sci-fi aspects. I admit, despite its many problems I enjoyed the first book (probably bc of Ken Liu's translation) but after that it gets worse and worse. If this series was a classic and written in 1900s I'd be more tolerant but as a modern author he has zero excuse to be this disgusting. The second book Dark Forest is honestly one of the most disgustingly misogynistic books I've ever read. I only was able to finish this series bc of the audiobook narrator lol. Also great point about other probably much better written chinese books not getting translated.

[@TheBookishLand]

Glad I’m not alone! I’m so tired when people do that too - like, how could people just ignore all the problematic things in the book?! Ken Liu is a good translator and writer but I’m also wondering sometimes about what is the boundary of translating. Like in this example, is the book still completely wrote by Liu Cixin if Ken Liu rearranged things and bettered the prose? However I agree with you, as a book that published in modern times this book was just sad. Also we even learnt to read classics critically nowadays, why shouldn’t we think critically about this book?

[@iamsheep]

Well it is a scifi novel. It would be like saying the science fiction is inaccurate in a romance novel set in space.

[@Summalogicae]

@@iamsheepNo, it wouldn’t be like that-this is not analogous. Tolerating misogyny is not like tolerating bad science.

[@iamsheep]

@@Summalogicaeyes a book that 100% politically aligns with you is the perfect book 🤣

[@Fangface74]

Activists are to the development of entertainment, as are Sophons to the development of physics

[@rightcheer5096]

You may be in good company disliking the book, but I think if you’re reading science fiction for literary quality, good character development, and/or political sensitivity, you’re bound to be put off not just by 3-BODY PROBLEM but by all but just a few science fiction classics, fromJules Verne to Philip K Dick. You’re dead wrong saying that good science fiction has to be good lit, or even good writing to begin with. Science fiction is first and last about depth and scope of ideas. In which regard, the 3-BODY PROBLEM is not just a success, but one of the great science fiction successes of all time.

[@juno1597]

I agree, the book would likely be better and more progressive if were written by a Western writer, but I"m not shocked the book is misogynistic considering how misogynistic and racist Chinese culture is.

[@yudeok413]

I haven't read the book, and I will not read it. I can't articulate why, but it's the kind of unease and dislike that just creeps on me from indirect exposure to it.

[@TheBookishLand]

Glad you decided to not read it lol

[@MichaelBartsch-il8nc]

Godawful book

[@Elayzee]

It’s overrated beyond belief. In every form so far too. The books, the shows. All of them.

[@Phobos_]

I feel like the book had some enticing ideas but between those interesting ideas was the worst writing I have ever read in my life. It just feels like it's only trying to pad out time so that they can rush to talk about the next cool new thing. The characters had absolutely no depth and I had no attachment to any of them. There are parts of the book that I feel like you could genuinely cut out and it would have no effect on the greater story by how uninformative and convoluted they were. My biggest gripe is that the book makes these grand sweeping statements and assumptions of society and humans, it feels like the book is trying so hard to be deep and knowing when it just comes off as an uniformed opinion.

[@TheBookishLand]

I completely agree with you on how the writing of this book is just about "the next big thing", and not at all payed attention to character development and growth. It's such a shame because some of the scientific ideas were brilliant, the execution was just plainly bad.

[@mcchickenmcdicken]

Great review. Very interesting to hear from someone who read the original Chinese version. I read the English version. It was far and away the WORST written SF book I have ever read.

[@samaelmorningstar8110]

Hard sci fi is rarely well written. And men who write hard sci fi rarely have a healthy perspective of women.

[@WestSideGorilla1980]

Not a fan of the books, the political metaphors are ham fisted and the prose doesn't translate....as an American from Chicago I probably have a different world view. Great piece for it's audience though.

[@BrianCooksey]

I read the first book in English and I agree with everything you said. The translation doesn't fix any of the problems you mentioned. I also think the science parts of it are nonsense. I am stunned that this book won a Hugo. I have read many other Hugo winners and none of them were this poorly written.

[@TheBookishLand]

Oh I'm glad you resonated with this video! It was a bit nerve wracking to make, and yea I was surprised that this book got Hugo as well. Do you have some Hugo winners that you absolute recommend?

[@BrianCooksey]

@@TheBookishLand I looked up the other Hugo nominees from that year and checked out those authors. The standout for me was Ann Leckie's Ancillary Justice. Also, anything by N.K. Jemisin.

[@TheBookishLand]

@@BrianCooksey All thanks for recs, I will check them out too :)

[@henrihns2659]

😂😂😂非常标准的文人风评论，通篇讨论的是跟三体核心思想没多少联系的内容，谁不知道刘慈欣写作直男加烂文笔，但是这些东西影响三体所要表达的内容吗？第三部我也不是非常喜欢，结果看完视频你仿佛就看了第三部，前面两部好的东西在你看来都不存在，有一种管中窥豹，舍本逐末的美，一股子文人酸腐之气扑面而来

[@TheBookishLand]

Maybe I'm not the target reader, but isn't it a good thing that a book can reach different type of people and generate different reactions? Glad you like this book enough to defend it, happy reading in the future! Xx

[@YZWD]

看个三体预告给我刷出个离谱视频。真的有些阅读量，你至少有普通读者的类型文学评判标准意识吧，或者说你认为文学理论有主流？你在关注文学性的时候就突然不会控制变量了？不管多有意见，至少做视频的时候不应该这么不客观吧。至于所谓厌女男性视角的问题，我搜了下简中网络上也女性吐槽这点，但是这是大众读者的普遍问题吗？还是少数女读者不希望看到的点？你在视频里引导阐述成这本书一文不值的理由之一？同时你的狭隘观点根本站不住脚，刘慈欣写过不少后现代女性形象的人物，建议你先看看林云这样塑造的女性人物，或者带上她的眼睛这样上了语文课本的短篇。

[@TheBookishLand]

拍拍，上网嘛，肯定会碰到很多跟自己吃不同意见的人～要不世界怎么丰富多彩呢呢 :) it’s ok to think I can’t read, glad you enjoyed this series, happy reading!

[@wadejohnston4305]

I'm not a fan of the authors views on...other ethnicities living in his country..in particular the treatment of Uyghur so I haven't tried this series yet.

[@TheBookishLand]

Glad you haven't spend time on this series, it's not worth it lol

[@jukio02]

China did what they had to do to stop the terrorist attacks. Now, Xinjiang is a peaceful prosperous place. I bet deep down you don't even care about Muslims. I know most Americans don't care about Muslims.

[@jukio02]

So, you are okay with terrorists killing people?

[@juki0h391]

So, whenever an American author writes a book, do they have to think about all the atrocities the US government has done? Your logic makes no sense at all. China protected themselves from separatists. China did nothing wrong.

[@vitaly2432]

I enjoyed the first book for the sci-fi aspect. I found the overall style to be hard to read (especially in the beginning - I think I got used to it afterwards). And the characters are two-dimensional, I agree. But... Misogyny? Really? Where? Ye is very smart and very intelligent. And that teen's body that "didn't make the bullet to decelerate" - what's here to complain about? Were it a male body, the bullet would have behaved the same way. That's not a reasonable claim to make - that the author is misogynistic for episodes like that. Likewise, someone could say that the author is racist just because there's not a single black person in the novel. But that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? What I didn't like about the women in this novel is that none of them had a good relationship with their spouse. All of them were portrayed cold and apathetic. And even the relationship of Ye with her daughter. It never seemed that Ye actually cared about her. But that's not misogyny, it's simply bad writing, nothing more. No need to make up these unnecessary accusations. It's an interesting sci-fi book, but not a masterpiece and not something that goes deeply into the human emotional experience.

[@JamesSimmonsBJ]

There are a lot of videos on You Tube about The Three Body Problem and yours is one of the more interesting ones I've come across. I only know the English version and you may be right that the translation is better than the original. One often hears the expression "lost in translation" but I guess it can work the other way too. I didn't pick up on the misogyny you mentioned. I actually thought Ye Wenjie was a well done character. It may be I think that because her portrayal in the Chinese TV series was so well done. (All the characters in the TV series were fleshed out better than in the book). I read the first book before seeing the TV series, then read it again after seeing the TV series. If it had not been for the TV series I probably would not have read the second and third books, but I'm finishing the third book and I'm enthralled by it. I thought the second one was really good too, better than the first one. The third book is largely told from the viewpoint of a woman who goes into hibernation several times and has the opportunity to react to the changes the human race goes through over several centuries. Her character isn't that interesting, but what she witnesses is. Her character arc isn't that great, but if you consider the human race as a character there is a lot going on. Hugo winners are not always great literature. They do generally have big ideas that give you something to think about, and the Three Body Problem series has a bunch of them. It also gets the science right. It imagines what life would be like in a triple star system, what an alien invasion would be like if the aliens took 400 years to arrive, how the aliens could fight us before the fleet arrives, and a bunch of other stuff. Nobody goes faster than light. No hero's journey. No space princesses. For many science fiction readers this is the good stuff. I would include myself in that group.

[@zoezheng1908]

Bravo!!讲出我的心声！我也是当初读到第二本男主幻想了个白衣飘飘的梦中情人终于读不下去，啥玩意啊，是不是有一点太low了（。 关键问题可能是厌女厌成这样，还能大卖，还有一帮死忠粉丝，说明确实契合了某种读者心理。 要怎么说呢，我一直觉得刘慈欣和他笔下的故事是一个整体，在于有一种非常连贯的理念和价值在里面，那也许是国内经历二十世纪巨变后的一种颇为扭曲的精神遗产或者说共有症候：重视科学远大于人文，在发展至上的信条下认为个体可以被牺牲，喜欢宏大叙事，认可社会达尔文主义和厚黑学，相信人类的未来掌握在少数（男性）精英而不是无知群众。 读他的书或者看关于他的讨论的时候我经常觉得太典了太典了，是我们熟悉的集体主义、发展主义和传统帝王法家的remix，在各种身边高谈阔论相信自己掌握世界真理的直男身上都能看到一些影子（开始mean了不好意思 所以三体之前在国内的大卖我觉得相当好理解，很大一部分读者和他在价值观上本就如出一辙。翻译成英文后受欢迎，我觉得也有文化上的一种错位后的新鲜感，我们对法家、社达和性恶论那一套再熟悉不过了，但英文读者们看到黑暗森林就会忍不住惊呼：还可以这样！mind-bending！ 科幻小说有很多写得绝好的！我再次吐血推荐我最爱的勒古恩奶奶，left hand of darkness讨论性别，the dispossessed讨论社会体制，文笔美妙，思辨深刻，既温柔又深邃，我心中最富有人文气息的科幻大师～

[@TheBookishLand]

白衣飘飘的梦中情人哈哈哈哈哈wtf 😂😂😂 我觉得很多人根本没有能力区别厌女，还属于把“你不是那种女孩”当成夸赞的第一阶段真的是很无语。 你对这本书的分析太对了！！！连贯的理念和价值观，包括他的其他书，真的是很扭曲。社达和厚黑真的渗透在方方面面，觉得群众不配选择，需要“保护”。你说的高谈阔论的影子也太熟悉了，真的是我们到现在都需要时时刻刻面对的日常--我当时那期读书会来得全是这种人，搞得我精疲力尽。 每次看到国外读者因为这书译自不熟悉的文化就generalized 中国文化，bypass 各种问题我就郁结。 啊你已经推荐了多次，我这就把勒古恩奶奶的著作提上日程！！感谢！每次跟你说话都感觉学到很多！

[@zoezheng1908]

@@TheBookishLand 是的是的，也有booktuber看了三体英文版后说虽然很厌女但是也许这是中国的文化吧！可能他们觉得还好，我表示尊重。我：也是不需要这么文化相对主义吧！我们中国女的很多看这本书也觉得被冒犯😤

[@TheBookishLand]

是的！！我也看到过！！所以我想还是做一期视频，最起码发送一个我的perspective 到这个giant internet void，免得随时随刻被代表 😒

[@jielin6342]

"关键问题可能是厌女厌成这样，还能大卖，还有一帮死忠粉丝，说明确实契合了某种读者心理。"所以你评价一部科幻小说的第一步骤是判断是否厌女？国内读者没几个吹刘慈欣刻画人物吧，拿他直男审美打趣的也不少，但也没向你这样攻击的。在一部科幻小说里你关注的点全是性别，社会体制和文笔，那我推荐你去看悲惨世界，恐怕海底两万里在您这连个屁都不是

[@ricokiwill2045]

刘写的类型类似于西方的sci-fi golden age那个时代的东西。阿西莫夫 克拉克这些科幻大师的小说也都是关注科幻概念本身，轻人物。讨论的更多是人类文明和宇宙的关系，而非个体的命运，直到后面的new wave流行起来，科幻才变得更加多元化。我个人喜欢看各种类型的科幻，从“黄金时代”的大师，到刘慈欣，韩松，再到近年的特德姜，匡灵秀，金草叶，每个作家都有很独到的视角，探讨宏观的宇宙，文明，社会也好，探讨个体的意识，性别，语言也好，这些都是科幻的母题而已。对于“黄金时代”的那些宏大的科幻主题，你不喜欢没问题，读者当然有自己的喜好，但你要是觉得这种科幻带有原罪那实在是不敢苟同。 另外说一点，科幻很多时候是把环境推演到极端情况下的思想实验，它是用极端的，带有戏剧性的故事情节来给读者带来一些思考。就是说，对于这样的故事中的价值观念，不代表是作者在现实生活中所推崇的，作者只是把未来的种种可能性排列出来，供人参考。三体的核心主旨之一，就是人类的道德和价值是在随着环境变化而不断变化的，它的现实意义，是引起人们对当下人类价值体系根基的怀疑，而不是让人倾向某一种价值。这明显是一个很左的观念。关于刘具体想表达的是什么，可以参照三体英文后记《The Worst of All Possible Universes and the Best of All Possible Earths》。你由三体推导出刘是社会达尔文主义，authoritarian，甚至什么帝王法家什么的。要么就是不太理解科幻这种类型文学的功能，要么就是意识形态先行，要么就是缺乏文学批评的基本常识。 最后讨论sexist问题。你的观点里，我最为同意的可能就是罗辑那一段yy是很low的。我觉得刘对于女性的描写带有浓厚的时代惯性，也深受了黄金时代科幻文学和苏联文学的影响，按照当今的标准，说三体文字带有sexist的成分我觉得fair enough。不过由此推导出作者厌女这个帽子扣得就太大了。作者不止写了这一本书，各类中短篇里，他的笔下也有很多不是刻板印象的女性形象（如林云）。即使只看三体这一本，叶文洁这个女性形象也是一个很有力量的角色。个人认为，刘本身缺乏系统的文学训练，写人物本来就很弱，写异性角色则更弱，且带有很大时代惯性，我能理解女性读的时候感到不适，甚至不读下去，这都是正常的。但是厌女是个strong claim，没有evidence的情况下随便说不合适。

[@freakmoister]

I totally didn’t pick up on the misogyny and I read both English translation and the original Chinese version… the examples you read out I saw them was a way of describing the waste of the tender buds of youth - now scream at how that is misogynistic. The strongest and most complex character in the first book was female. She was a scientist, an idealist, a mother/daughter, a villain and a person seeking redemption. She the extremes rolled into one. Even while knowing how hard and potentially futile her efforts were continue to think about ways that she could fix the problems. I wouldn’t call that a one dimensional character.

[@airakazadnawri5766]

I am just finished the trilogy, it's hard science fiction, it's lack drama or characters development, because this trilogy tell stories in macro scale, of the universe it's make me to thinks, questioning many things, contemplated and then enlightened. So, if what you looking for is drama interaction between character, or nitpicking words discribe with it aligned or not with your political view, than it's not for you. I kinda understand your dislike on misoginis things because by doing so and how you describing, it's cleary show your bias based on your political beliefs as feminists. it's well known that hardcore feminists is spreading well in china nowdays when western already sick of it, and many china female moderat or conservative also sick of it. Actually the second book the dark forrest tell the story on how human lost many norms, morals values from religion, partriach, and his beastly nature to survive when feminism, LGBTs and more unrestrained way of live take over the world, when alpa male more scared than panda. It's understandable from psychological and sociological perspective after all aliens, war catastrophic thing that happens. Even nowdays we can see that it's progressing to that directions, And the earth suffered because of it, Peace was earned by blood and sacrifices, many forget about that. Hesitation and compassion in wild universe just a suicide. but in the grand of scale of the universe that describe in the trilogy thats just tiny aspect of it, that i feel not so important in the grand scale of time and universe.

[@SachinJames89]

Unecessary criticism, since the book is not about any single character. What books have you written though!?

[@mljh11]

This is very poor criticism, sorry. It would probably be better if more time was spent picking out portions of the books that properly illustrate the alleged problems of "misogyny" and "male gaze" - because the examples used simply don't support your argument at all. Saying that a body is "soft" is not inherently sexist; it merely describes a physical property which one would reasonably expect a fresh corpse or a dying person to exhibit, which is limpness. I also don't see how describing a bullet hitting the chest of a girl is a good example of the "male gaze". That term is used to illustrate how a man's eye is drawn to certain parts of the female anatomy because he is assessing her sexual attractiveness. But in the example you picked it is just a description of a physical interaction between two objects. If anything, the main theme I got from the two pieces of sample text was that of youth being carelessly trampled upon by violence. That seems like a suitable metaphor if a writer wanted to highlight how the Cultural Revolution harmed a whole generation of young people. To instead make the claim that these are examples of misogyny and male gaze is quite ludicrous, and frankly seems like projection rather than fair critique. The other complaint about poorly written females is insufficiently substantiated, and in fact appears to be more an issue of the author's inability to write well-rounded characters altogether ("one personality" , "flat" , etc) and not specifically a problem he has with women only. Furthermore, I think you're throwing the word "misogyny" around too casually; it's supposed to mean mistreatment of women, yet you deemed it appropriate to use this accusation on a writer whose only crime is his (allegedly) clumsy literary skills. This tactic is symptomatic of activism-speak and is difficult to take seriously. I've never read Liu's books so maybe there are other sections of the trilogy (or other works by the same author) that warrant such criticism, but unfortunately this video does a bad job of proving its premise.

[@TheBookishLand]

Thanks for the comment. Just want to point out the example in the video are in the poor writing and accessible adjective section, although they are certainly sexist, they are not in the misogynistic section. Please refer to the pinned comment for examples of sexist in the book. But everyone is entitled with their own opinion, so I’m glad you enjoyed the book.

[@rog9278]

The brilliant ideas contained in the series >>>>>>> sexism (which is not even the core of the books anyways).

[@andreas5384]

The ideas are not that brilliant...

[@alphatrece9208]

@@andreas5384 Agree, authors like Greg Egan, Peter Watts or Ted Chiang seem to me to have equally or more revolutionary ideas with better writing.

[@mateobarrett6829]

This series is purely science fantasy. It wields science like a cudgel and expects readers who don't understand science to be wowed by it. There are so many plot holes caused by this cromagnon application of science its incredible its revered as it is. Not to mention the characterization and the plot is downright banal, bad, and uninspired.

[@chrislui571]

3 body is hard sci-fi, for people who don't know much about physics, then it may not be a book for them. I am an engineer, and while I was reading this book, I was terrified because the story the books told could happen in reality.

[@danieln6356]

What?! What can happen?

[@mateobarrett6829]

Please, this book is science fantasy. You're telling me aliens with the ability to unfold a SINGLE proton around an entire planet don't have the ability to solve the Three Body Problem? Furthermore, these sophons do it by accessing higher dimensions. Imagine what kind of technology permits such complexity? Why not just fold one or two of their stars into this other dimension? why not kick one of them out of the solar system? These are just a few of the plot holes with the existence of sophons, let alone the implication that the Sophons could simply broadcast state secrets to the eyes of rival nations and cause a thermonuclear exchange, thus wiping out humanity. Its all just downright insulting to my intelligence frankly

[@jielin6342]

很明显，在你这里喜欢三体的男性（甚至女性）已经被钉上审判架了

[@TheBookishLand]

I have no intention to judge the individuals who liked or did not like the book, this video is purely to talk about my thoughts and spark constructive conversations. Glad you enjoy the book.

[@anatoly.ivanov]

1) I would predict you’d - rightly - blast Asimov’s Foundation series’ style as well? (and as a screenwriter, I’d agree, if you’d like to hear my own opinion) 2) Yes, the misogyny is one of the main themes - and it’s not a problem of translation - however, just declaring “women are not like that” is as weak an argument as an “I don’t like apples, therefore apples are bad”. Why not cite the psychometrics research about female Homo sapiens being equally rational (in numbers and proportion) and similarly distributed on the Gaussian curve? For each 1 Marie Curie we get 50 Einsteins and Von Neumanns, and not for some random nebulous “Because Patriarchy™” bad explanation (see post-Pompeian epistemology). Although the research is still ongoing, the main trends are sufficiently clear to move forward on more solid ground. I would prefer the world to be otherwise, but so far, Margaret Thatcher and Angela Merkel haven’t been the exemplars of “female angels of love” (I’m referencing the books) saving us all from the ruthless bestiality mentioned by the book’s character Wade towards the end of the series. The way Russian females encourage or close their eyes on the war crimes _today_ is telling as well… In the series, 1 woman first killed humanity, then murdered her own husband and his friend, coldly and rationally, then proceeded to push her own daughter to suicide. Then another woman methodically and repeatedly exterminated the Solar System with all women and men in it, even when given several opportunities to avoid repeating her previous mistakes, all the while not taking responsibility for her actions (which is a well-understood pattern). I don’t think the author’s misogyny - his stance on the gender issue and the enduring fantasy of “female kindness and empathy” is baseless. On the contrary, his writing remains, alas, not too remote of a representation of our reality, as is his portrayal of the social dynamics in the Solar System.

[@TheBookishLand]

Glad you are so passionate about the book you enjoyed :) happy reading!

[@anatoly.ivanov]

@@TheBookishLand - Why “passionate”? I haven’t shared even a bit of the emotions I felt while reading the series. And did I say anything about whether I’d enjoyed the book? And which one of the 3 in the series? Thanks for the wishes, I read and write for a living.

[@TheBookishLand]

@@anatoly.ivanov good for you!

[@mateobarrett6829]

@@anatoly.ivanov What she really meant was: "I ain't reading all that. Happy for you. Or sorry that happened." Likewise

[@anatoly.ivanov]

@@mateobarrett6829 - Yes, something like that. To me, it’s just intellectually laziness. Why bother enabling comments? Even less to read… good for her. 😀

[@TucoBenedicto]

“The male gaze”… Yeah, that’s the moment I accepted that there would be nothing of value for me in this opinion.

[@TheBookishLand]

It’s ok to think there’s no value for you :) happy reading!