Why I Left Academia, And What Happened In My First Three Years | Chris Cornthwaite - Roostervane

I never planned on leaving academia. In this video, I talk about why I decided that it was a waste of time to try to become a professor, and what I've learned so far about building a career with a PhD.
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[@msab657]

I was a PhD tenured professor for 18 years. I left after I had a nearly life ending medical condition. Luckily, I fully recovered, but as my medical leave was coming to an end, in my mind, in no way could I picture going back. I don’t know why, I always thought I liked my job. Sure, I hated the amount of meaningless emails I had to deal with everyday, and I hated all the meetings with a group of people who thoroughly loved hearing themselves talk, and yes, I hated having to write proposals just to get the basic things I needed to do my job and I definitely could do without the politics, the drama and the backstabbing. I loved my job because of the teaching and the students, that I got to dedicate only about a tenth of my time. Wait, what? I couldn’t justify going back to a job where I hated 90% of what I did. So I didn’t. Was it a good idea? I dont know, I don’t have a job, but I still have bills- lol. It’s not that easy to find a regular job after academia. I’m overqualified for everything and in my late fifties. Employers want to hire people on the low end of the pay scale and mold them the way they see fit. But I think I will eventually find a job I’m perfect for in time. I hope.

[@jiechengzhang5072]

You are a very brave person. I used to be an aimless PhD till I escaped academia. There are many posts out there who would value and appreciate your expertise, I hope you find the right one soon. Please take care of yourself.

[@Trilobita98]

Have you considered teaching high school? You said you loved teaching

[@AsusMemopad-us5lk]

Government!

[@cel2651]

Any updates?

[@Ken-er9cq]

I retired, and will be glad to not to attend another meeting. One of my colleagues was collaborating with someone at another university. He was doing excellent research, but he hated all the other stuff. He left and now has a consultancy doing work mainly for defence, and has two employees.

[@ryalex20]

I’m black and have a PhD in molecular biology. A large part of the reason I left academia was the blatant, unmitigated racism I dealt with. I’ve had a labmate regularly call me the n-word unprompted because he thought it was funny and my advisor not do anything about it because he felt like he needed that postdoc for the lab to survive. When I left the department, I left a statement to the committee on diversity and inclusion that they read in a zoom meeting describing the stuff I went through. The sheer alienation I endured in academia was baffling in retrospect. I’m in industry now and kind of in shock that everyone around me gives me basic respect without struggle.

[@Roostervane]

OMG that's so awful. I'm glad you were at least able to find a better environment after, but holy crap

[@sashanealand8315]

I had the same problem, Im not asian and the PI and rest of professors were so I got excluded and the verbal and other blatant rudeness was really intolerable

[@ryalex20]

@@sashanealand8315I’m sorry, that’s terrible. I hope you’re in a much better place now. It’s ridiculous how pervasive this issue is in academia.

[@os2171]

Powerful. I am a Neurobiologist (MSc x 2 and PhD) I worked in a prestigious Cancer lab at Upenn and neurobiology at Rutgers and being from South America I can say I have endured some discrimination too. Now I am back in Colombia and I just finished my phd here (long story) but as expected the prospect for academia are null here so, I am eager for a industry position (anywhere) as Data Analyst / Scientist in fields related with Pharma and tech and / or as Scientific/ medical writer. I would appreciate any advice

[@Ken-er9cq]

Academia is still very feudal. The university will almost always support their version of knights which are researchers who bring in a lot of research funds.

[@joshuapatrick682]

Im fortunate, early on In grad school my academic mentor and i were having a discussion about a potentially awesome therapy model I was starting to research that had shown promise in limited research groups elsewhere. It really looked like all the pieces were there but no one had put them together. Somehow the discussion landed on “we are not in the business of curing diseases but if managing symptoms because if we’re in the business of curing disease we’d soon be out of business.” That was my last discussion with them and my last semester in university.

[@Roostervane]

jeez- That's hard to take. I got a bit of that in the humanities- We were supposed to observe things, not actually DO anything

[@mau345]

I am really stuck in this dilemma where I really love research but absolutely hate the general culture of academia and the irony how rigid it can be. There’s also a gloomy feeling from most scientists in universities, probably from the burn out and the unnecessary however integrated political and administrative tasks they have to deal with, forgetting their love for research, and sadly teaching.I never wanted to be a full time professor, but boy do i want to do research. Its likely ill be in industry or a freelance consultant.

[@Roostervane]

Yeah, there's a ton of opportunity in Industry to do great research. Consultant is not a bad way to go either, if you're a bit entrepreneurial! Good luck!

[@schmetterling4477]

Leave. Nobody needs you in academia. They will be perfectly fine without you. But that's not important. What is important is that you will be perfectly fine without them. More than that, actually. You will have a shot at being happy.

[@sunway1374]

I don't know about other fields, in my field of earth science, most professors do not have time to do research or even for research. Research is done by postdocs and phd students, the ideas are also driven by these more junior people. The profs are managers, promoters and fund raisers.

[@schmetterling4477]

@@sunway1374 That's pretty much the same in every field. Getting grants is a full time job. My professor was very good at it, so the department was funded beyond belief all of the time, but he didn't do any research himself. He had group leaders who supervised the science work of the PhD students and the PhD students were taking care of the undergrads.

[@sunway1374]

@@schmetterling4477 Your prof sounds just like mine :-). I have noticed even in the proposals, he mostly just coordinates ideas from his group and collaborators. So, it's not like he drives the science either. There is so much admin in the projects he hires two more full time secretaries to help him, besides the staff who are already there supporting the department (HR, finance, etc). If you like research, being a 'successful' prof must be really soul crushing.

[@JohnPilling25]

I quiT my tenured professorship at 45 yrs old. I got tenure at 28 yrs old - I work in metallurgy. I had industrial contacts and worked as an engineering consultant to a multi-billion dollar company who actually appreciated what I had to offer, my no nonsense approach and getting the job done quickly. I've never looked back and have tremendous freedom to work wherever I happen to be. Why did I quit? Incompetence of those in the uni admin trying to tell me what to do and basically using my multi million $ grants as their own personal piggy banks was one - a second was discovering rampant plagiarism in grant applications and academic publishing - and finally and the politics, cliques and pettiness in academia. I've had a great life since. I've worked in several countries at high end institutions, written books, papers etc and was getting nowhere at my university because I was always the foreigner with different views who would not tow the line and it got to me depressed.

[@drew8235]

My dream has always been to teach at the university level, but I hear so much bad stuff about it. It's good to hear people's experiences so that I can separate the ideal version of my dream from the reality of what it would actually be. Doing so makes doing other things with your life, even if they weren't what you envisioned doing, easier to live with.

[@MeMe-lx2jw]

I dreamed of being a university professor. While I didn't make full professorship, I was highly disappointed by the reality of academia. It's just a business that preys on bright eyed students.

[@dv_wild]

Career planning is so overwhelming... but thanks a lot for sharing your journey.. listening to this helps me be hopeful about my future. Thank you!

[@michelleachacoso4983]

I’m a PhD who left 10 years ago. I like seeing where this takes me.

[@brahimabrahmia3272]

Many scholars out there have same stories, but can't tell because of their "pride and ego" I really appreciate your honesty. good luck on the road

[@Roostervane]

thanks so much!

[@context_curated]

yes! the humility and resilience is inspiring! as well as the courage to move and make it... i've been hoping to find a job to move to.

[@theresearchroom407]

I have a similar story. Definitely scary, but I feel more hopeful about actually doing something more worthwhile and also having a healthier work-life balance. I am glad you see you got out and are doing well too! More people need to see this side of the story; it was virtually nonexistent in my graduate program, so I also hope to be a voice for this sort of change if others are having doubts about the academic trajectory. I'll definitely be checking in to see what other cool content you have!

[@user-zs3kv8jm9o]

Thanks man, it really helps to even just see your worries reflect in someone else's life

[@chippydolphin]

Thank you so much for sharing your story!

[@1polonium210]

Failure is good ... provided you learn from your mistakes! After earning a PhD (geology), I decided to avoid a career in academia in favor of industry and, later, consulting. After deciding to become an independent consultant, I made a number of mistakes, but I recovered and developed a rewarding career that enabled me to retire comfortably. I do NOT regret my decision to purse a career outside of academia. I had seen enough of politics and backstabbing in the years I worked on my PhD to know that I wanted nothing more to do with higher education by the time I finished my degree program.

[@Roostervane]

100%! the more time I spend outside the more I'm so glad I left. I do consulting now too (this video is a few years old)-- It's been a great fit

[@charuuppal7043]

Chris, I follow your blog and this channel. I know some of this stuff, but am amazed at how courageous you are to share it all. An inspiration and I know you are going places, ALREADY...

[@Roostervane]

Thanks so much Charu!

[@DanS8204]

Chris, thank your courage, your compassion, and your kindness in sharing your experiences and observations. Your integrity, insight, and wisdom are much appreciated.

[@Roostervane]

Thanks very much! The video is a couple years old now, but I'm glad it was helpful :)

[@luiegiii]

I feel like I have a unique perspective about this that I hope will help someone here. I’m in my mid thirties and decided to go back to school about 4 years ago. The journey has been difficult and during exam weeks I begin to question my decision lol. But prior to this I was a massage therapist for 11 years. Eventually I burned out and took a long break to do real estate. I soon realized that I was a healer when I went on a mission trip. It was the greatest moment of clarity for me and helped me solidify what my purpose was I soon decided to go to school and focus on becoming a doctor. I’m on my way and it has been very challenging but I know I am doing what I was made for. I used to tell my clients that when I was older I would go back to school and become a doctor. Well here I am, older and on my way! It wasn’t until I got a word from God that I was able to have some clarity. I hope if you are reading this you also get inspiration to go after God and follow your calling. Her made you for a reason and you have a gift. If that means being an educator, then find a new way to use your education. We need people like you running things!

[@awritersgarage4117]

Hey Chris, nice video, thanks for sharing, quite inspiring.

[@alexmckenzie8491]

An inspiring story, thank you. I can recommend 'What Color is your Parachute' for everything related to job searches, finding your niche etc.

[@Roostervane]

it's a good one!

[@velocirapture89]

I'm incredibly grateful to my younger self that I chose not to pursue this path. I considered it -- and rejected it, and it has made all the difference. I'm now a software developer and I have the flexibility to live anywhere and work a high-paying job. I even get to avoid the politics (for the most part, as much as you can these days) because I work remote.

[@Roostervane]

Sounds like you made the right choice. I've gone a similar direction since I made this video a few years ago

[@kingastryszowska-hill1648]

Great story! I love how honest and detailed your are.

[@Roostervane]

Thanks so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it

[@arbitrarylib]

I understand. I am not in academia but I have learned to follow my gut when it says its time to let go.

[@nazymmalikova1018]

Hey! I don't know how I found your blog but I am really grateful for that. Your videos helped me to figure out my path, now me being a 3rd year bachelor student. I haven't found such information and experience shared as in your content, thank you for that. I wish more people found your blog) Best of luck, I think what you are doing is really something!

[@Roostervane]

I'm so glad it's helpful! Good luck on your journey

[@aquilesriffo]

The problem with academia is the people that want to be the next professors have to wait until the current professors retire or die. However, the worst part of these people they are afraid of the real world

[@mylifeisinhishandsamen4167]

I am in my third year and am already planning to exit Academia. I personally dont like the fact that most Universities pokenose into their staffs' personal business (declaring your side hustle if you work in a university). I want to continue to publish papers after my PhD but not stay in Academia. I want the publications (focus on solving practical business problems - my focus is not theory) to help my reputation as I want to do management consulting. In summary, I like money too much to stay in Academia... 😂

[@Roostervane]

That's fair! And the ridiculous regulations about what you can do with your spare time are almost unheard of anywhere else... (seems especially common in the UK)

[@aquilesriffo]

Great, PhD people should focus on solving current problems .

[@drmaxinedavis6046]

I love the adventure perspective!!!! Leaps of faith are the best.

[@Roostervane]

I think so! Scary at times, but they always grow us

[@profjeff9]

I just stumbled on this video, but I'm leaving Academia, and I have a PhD in Religious Studies too! Always nice to see some representation.

[@Roostervane]

awesome! Good luck with the journey!

[@erlie85]

I really like your style! Calm, honest and very interesting, good luck, i’m certain your channel will grow quite a lot.

[@Roostervane]

Thanks very much!

[@christinegreen3974]

Somehow I landed in a part-time clinical track after I finished my PhD and I'm miserable. I've been adjuncting at another college and love it. Not sure what my goals were with the PhD other than I could do it and I wanted to finish. Now I'm over-qualified for everything in my field, but not seeing a full-time position anytime soon.

[@Roostervane]

It's such a tough transition point. In my experience, most people do learn to make the transition and leverage their education into good work, but it takes a lot of exploration.

[@ALINA-eo1cr]

You can look into becoming a high school teacher and waiting around until a tenure-track position opens up or you could try tutering. If you like teaching, there are other options too, including moving to another country where your education is more valued. That's how life is, things change all the time and you have to be flexible because you'll end up unhappy otherwise.

[@christinegreen3974]

@@ALINA-eo1crThis is a very naive response. First, one needs to be certified to become a high school teacher - it's not that easy to just get a job teaching high school. The last thing the teaching profession needs are teachers only thete until something better comes along. Secondly I have degrees and certifications in elementary education, so high school isn't my gig. Third, I did take a district level position and it's more miserable than piecing together adjunct work. Tutoring is ridiculously low pay and moving to another country is impractical.

[@sage9836]

I just LIED about my education to get work to pay my loans. I felt bad about it. Once I got fired, and am not sure if it was for my education on incompetence at cleaning windows. Some employers don't ask or don't seem bothered.

[@context_curated]

I am so glad I found this video. Thank you, I feel slightly more hopeful. Slightly different, I had a great position abroad then lost my visa and have returned to the US and cannot get my foot in the door (and learning I probably don't want it anyway!). Very disoriented and would love to know more about the academy you mentioned.

[@Roostervane]

Thanks so much for sharing your story, Amanda! I'm really glad you found the video helpful. The academy hasn't been launched yet.. but it is coming! Stay tuned :) Good luck on the job hunt

[@context_curated]

@@Roostervane thank you.

[@yorkiemom4272]

Well, I made it into academia and will be retiring soon. And, it certainly gave me flexibility to raise my son. However, it was never what I aspired to do, nor did I like it. I moved into an Assistant Dean position and everything was so much better.

[@AvivSharon]

Thanks for sharing your story, Chris! More power to you.

[@Roostervane]

Thanks Aviv! It's been too long. Hope you are well 🙂

[@bovette3]

Thank you so much for opening up on your journey. For me, it has been an extremely lonely journey during the pandemic after which I got my PhD, so watching this video is very conforting. From applying to waiter jobs to opening my consulting company which is not exactly sustaining myself, it has been a challenging journey. The day I submitted my PhD was the day I officially became jobless. Leaving academia is hard, but people that do so, are extremely brave, talented, and they have a great sense of self-respect, they open up to the world and have certainly lots to offer (this video is the direct proof). I am so glad I watched this video today, and will join this amazing community of researchers in exodus. I will buy your book too to support your amazing work!

[@Roostervane]

thank you so much for this kind comment. The struggle is so real, and it takes time. Keep going.. you'll get there.

[@blazekaizer9000]

I don't understand, how can someone who is obviously this hard working and smart could not get a job... I come from community college as a undergrad I scored a banking job in great firm. I just can't imagine someone so knowledgeable not being able to get out there. What was your subject?

[@Roostervane]

@@blazekaizer9000 Good question. It's sort of a unique thing -- a lot of people are training to be professors with a PhD, but won't get a job in a college or uni. So it's a mass overproduction. They CAN get a job, but not as a prof

[@blazekaizer9000]

@@Roostervane yes, maybe the job market it's scary to them and school is as normal as breathing after spending years doing research. I understand to some degree

[@nelsonartemio4218]

I once had high hopes. Now I read the research that makes problems out of things that were never problems before to make meaningless things somehow become "marginalized". It is sophistry in how you can argue your way into an oppressed position and therefore become untouchable.

[@AsusMemopad-us5lk]

Research seems like a good activity for retirement doesn't it.

[@huveja9799]

It is really an eye opening about who is thinking/redacting the final policies (i.e. shaping the society's policy direction) .. and the end results of it ..

[@yemiojo2265]

Thanks for being honest.

[@cintianascimento5963]

So inspiring! I gave up my PhD in environmental science last year. Since then I have been applying for government jobs, with no success.

[@schmetterling4477]

Why are you telling us that you failed high school? ;-)

[@GeetaSharma-jd9sr]

Interesting journey! Unsure what's in store for me as a recent PhD graduate given these unprecedented times!

[@Roostervane]

It is definitely difficult out there! Best of luck with your journey.

[@charuuppal7043]

Geeta, at this time creating your own vision will be very important. Focus on the vision, not on the fear. Best wishes

[@cebilendwandwe6857]

great video. this is surely scary. I am still undecided about a PhD. Not sure if its worth it

[@schmetterling4477]

Do a job search. Compare the job opportunities for PhDs with those for people without. Look at the bios of C-level management in your field. If many of them have a PhD or JD (or MD), then you know what it takes to be upward mobile. Don't be stupid and think that you are going to beat the system and be one of the few who can bypass a boss with a higher academic title because of your natural good looks and charm. And, no, you are not Bill Gates or Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, either.

[@eniolaboluwaduro2536]

Hi Chris, its great to have found your channel and thanks for the awesome content, I've subscribed! In this video, you spoke about the Shaper app which helped you to connect with potential employers but you didn't leave a link to the app. I'll appreciate this link if the app still exists? And if it doesn't, are there alternatives? Thanks much!

[@danielvillarreal6610]

Excellent video! Long story EXTREMELY short: I got soured on academia after being hosed a few times-I’m an American 🇺🇸 expatriate in Taiwan 🇹🇼-such as: being voluntold to do copyediting for everyone at both our military academy and the adjoining hospital to the point that I couldn’t get any professional writing of my own done and I barely managed to finish my US-based dissertation and graduate. This took up all of my days off, evenings, and weekends. My StupidVisor called it “service”! Some of my “service” included getting dragged to her office past suppertime to work on her excrement while neglecting my own. Plus-I’m a school-trained retired Licensed Court Interpreter, etc.-seeing my StupidVisor place an extremely underqualified new hire into the Spanish Professor position that I had worked hard for (Levels 6 & 8 Certificates in the Spanish Language, National Autonomous University of Mexico 🇲🇽; Ph.D. in Foreign Language Education, etc., etc.). She single-handedly negated YEARS of training and experience. Again, long story short: I’ve since redirected my efforts to online teaching. More $$$ and No StupidVisor’s crap! While I teach part-time at universities, I teach English, Spanish, and pedagogy all over Asia. I’m on track to earn more online than from my future pensions. To The Theological Place of Eternal Punishment with full time academia!

[@Roostervane]

Oh wow, congrats! That's a great story and I'm glad you were able to leverage your skills in a different direction.

[@mindcache5650]

Bottom line. I'm friends with a really talented married man, who disclosed to me that he suffered a decade ago with a brain tumour from which he recovered. Over a beer , discussing our lives, he turned to me and said," Everyone here in this bar, has had a different journey". That was it. Look the positive factor is that you have been blessed with a journey and done stuff. Many don't have a choice.

[@Roostervane]

100% - I've realized this over time especially. I'm so lucky to have had the chances I did

[@ems7623]

I've just discovered your content here and on the web. I wish I had found you three years ago. I've been in a three year depression after I made the momentous decision to leave my tenure track job because (1) I was incredibly miserable. (2) i was stagnating intellectually, socially, in my health (3) i wasn't producing the necessary publications for tenure anyways and i had lost the drive to do so. I'm ready now for a fresh start outside academia. Let's see how it goes. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around what I'd be good at, what my marketable skills are, what kind of work would hold my interest. And how do you even DO networking?!

[@Roostervane]

Hey, welcome! I hope it's helpful. The move outside of academic is challenging. I think it's often the mindset part of it that's more difficult than the job itself. I have a lot of posts and resources on my blog- roostervane.com/blog/ Hope it's helpful, and feel free to connect on LinkedIn. Good luck!

[@schmetterling4477]

You can't do effective networking without an organization. People look at your position first before they look at you. That is no different in private companies than it is in academia. What are your marketable skills? How does your research relate to the needs of industry, biotechnology, healthcare etc.? Do you have EQ? If not, then life will be hard everywhere. If you do, then you already know that what you need is a mentor within an important organization who will take you under his or her wing. Without that... good luck.

[@taruneek94]

I am currently in my second year of PhD in social sciences, and feeling more and more depressed about the direction my is taking. I came into this thinking that this was the natural course that my life was supposed to take, but I feel very unsupported throughout this. I know that the negative experiences I had with my masters supervisor, and starting PhD in the middle of COVID did nothing to make my experiences better. So at this point, I'm not sure whether it's my particular experiences and circumstances that have been affecting me, or whether academia is just not compatible with me.

[@Roostervane]

Thanks for sharing your story. I don't know an easy answer, but I do know that a lot of people and up feeling this-- you're definitely not alone. Good luck moving forward.. life outside is pretty great too

[@schmetterling4477]

OK, so how does a person without EQ do social sciences, or better...why? And what, exactly, stops you from picking up a few textbooks about the structure of human interaction within organizations? What stops you from approaching a bunch of people in the middle management layer of companies that you are interested in to ask them the obvious question: "Please, Sir or Madam, may I ask how you got to where you are today?". I know that at least two industry organizations around here are holding seminars (free or almost free) that feature successful business people who are addressing exactly these issues. OK, so how does one get "there"? People. You always get there through people. I am not surprised that most hard scientists who are hovering around 0 EQ don't understand this (I didn't, either, when I was young), but a social scientist? Please. Dudes. Give me a break.

[@saphone9758]

I got a tt job, only one in my cohort. I still think i should have quit in my 3rd year of phd. Biggest waste of time in my life to work in a dying job with a bunch of loonies

[@schmetterling4477]

@@saphone9758 So what made you study cosmetology? ;-)

[@schmetterling4477]

I can tell you exactly what happens when you keep pushing. You end up a marginalized old visiting something something in the lab, facility, among the faculty who is being ignored/shunned by everybody. I have seen a dozen of those in my life. Sad creatures.

[@drmaxinedavis6046]

Yea the constant moving the family is too much of a burden in academia that I had no idea about.

[@Roostervane]

Gosh yes. it's absurdly tough for families :(

[@os2171]

Thanks for your video. I am a Neurobiologist (MSc x 2 and PhD) I worked in a prestigious Cancer lab at Upenn and neurobiology at Rutgers in the US; Now I am back in Colombia and I just finished my phd here (long story) but as expected the prospect for academia are null here so, and I am done with academia; I am eager for a industry position (anywhere in North America or Europe) as Data Analyst / Scientist in fields related with Pharma and tech and / or as Scientific/ medical writer. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.

[@chuckschillingvideos]

There are far, far, far too many academics chasing far too few legitimate grants. Much, and perhaps most research work is agenda-driven, government funded, and intellectually bankrupt where the grantee understands that the purpose of the research is to reach a predetermined result and to support a larger policy perspective in pursuit of a partisan purpose. The researcher should honestly ask him or herself whether the purpose of a proposed research effort is in the purpose of a legitimate scientific purpose with a valid purpose and which will serve a useful end, as opposed to carrying the water for a political end.

[@victorhernandezbennetts5431]

When I saw the thumbnail for this video I thought to myself "Why is Jeff Winger talking about academia?"

[@Roostervane]

lol it's not the first time

[@user-sh1ki3qi4h]

The point of academia-the reality of how to have a good environment there-is when tat environment enrolls only a small, very small, number of students. This is especially the case with graduate school academia. (In undergraduate years, most of the student's time is spent in learning the fundamentals and basics of their subjects. Not in doing any kind of individual research, around a topic all of whose dimensions are left up to the student.) Every sustainable, maintainable graduate program in academia depends on those enrolled being not only top students already (in their undergraduate years), but sufficiently disciplined and assertive to both do the necessary research in one or the other topic on their own, and to dialogue with their advisers regularly about what has already been done on or written on their topic, and how they might make their own contribution to a body of research. Mediocre students, or those without much of a work-ethic or those vague on what they might do in a specific line of research are no use to either themselves or their advisers, and should as soon as possible be swerved off and out of the department. Secondly, there must be the same commitment by the students' advisers and faculty regarding enabling that student to not only begin good quality research, but to continue it to completion of their academic work at that university or college. The department must have as small a number of attending graduate students as possible to enable a maximal contact between student and professor.

[@kelz3454]

Great story. Advice needed.... I am in my 40's and I am returning to school to get a second masters in Social Work. my entire career has been in social work. My first masters is in higher education. I was considering getting a Ph.D upon completion. Understanding the rigors of getting tenure and the possible travel to multiple institutions along the will put me close to my 60's. Not liking that. I am interested in teaching but feel that the traditional route in academia just isnt the way to go. I respect your journey and accomplishments. Failure is success. Any thoughts???

[@schmetterling4477]

Tenure at 60? Dude, you need to stop smoking. ;-)

[@kelz3454]

@@schmetterling4477 yeah :( I guess ill go another route. maybe just teach at the community college level.

[@aquilesriffo]

wake up

[@XxAssassinYouXx]

Did you know the process of getting a tenure track professorship in your PhD? I don't know about your field, but for STEM (my field is is in physics) you have to do at least 1 post doc position before even being considered for a tenure position.

[@Roostervane]

Check the numbers for your field. Even with post-docs, the chances of getting a tt job are pretty low for most. It's an internal story by academia, but doesn't reflect reality in many cases

[@hfkssadfrew]

tenure-track AP in top 30 Univerisities here in USA. 1. It is great to pursue a phd. Tbh, Postdoc is also fun. 2. Being a AP is not a good idea anymore. Whatever you envision about research, is no longer there.

[@dr.vanathiperumal8307]

My business model is a pandemic timeline project like yours which allows me to write my own business grants for my future career.

[@schmetterling4477]

Why are you telling us that you failed high school? ;-)

[@dr.vanathiperumal8307]

@@schmetterling4477, In high school with lots of life challenges, managed to pass from a private school. After graduation, I never failed twenty-seven years in my career. Always had a top permanent job, international scholarship, and fellowship with beautiful children and family.

[@schmetterling4477]

@@dr.vanathiperumal8307 Sure you did, kid. Sure you did. ;-)

[@dr.vanathiperumal8307]

@@schmetterling4477 Thank you. All the best for your future endeavours.

[@schmetterling4477]

@@dr.vanathiperumal8307 That would be nice, but I am already nearing the expiration date. That gives you a totally different picture of just how many bullshitters the average honest man is surrounded by. ;-)

[@drmaxinedavis6046]

Take a look at my open resignation letter on my channel! Must see…..for people who want to know what happens behind the curtain in academia and the tenure track.

[@Roostervane]

Cool! Will do

[@DogRabbitPigMonkey]

Isn’t it extremely relevant information for you to state the field you got your PhD in and the rank of the department? Because prospects-in academia and industry-will vary stupendously based on those two.

[@jannat-al-mawa]

what is the title of your new job?

[@Roostervane]

I don't have a job to do right now. I run my own company, so I guess the closest thing would be "consultant." The last time I had a job title it was "senior policy analyst"

[@kubetail12]

Funny how KZbin is recommending these videos to me as I am trying to apply to faculty positions. Like many of you, I had had very negative experiences in academia, but industry has not been good to me. I finally got an entry-level engineering job in manufacturing after years for applying to jobs. It was not what I hoped. I suspect they simply hired me because of my PhD and nothing else. Some people make such a big deal about my Ph.D. that I feel others think I am some sort of snob. I thought it was good that engineers wore many hats here, because you do that in academia and it doesn’t get boring. The problem is they rotate you on a as needed basis or just get your training hours on the books. As someone starting at the very bottom, it’s hard to learn what I need to do to move up. Last week I was told in a meeting to do better because I am a PhD not a button pusher. Since it’s hard for me to land interviews and now I have a non-compete barring me from the aerospace industry for two years. I am going back.

[@monikakress3867]

Leaving academia is totally not a failure. tenure can be the ultimate dead-end job. be glad you got out when you did.

[@2736492821]

9-5 in a TT job is impossible. MOre like 9-9

[@kaposipal]

it sounds like you are a native english speaker...

[@Roostervane]

yup :)

[@JamesJoyce12]

Non-Tenure Track folks made a serious life-error. "you'll get a job" - without research suggests you are a maroon.

[@lzeng78]

!!!

[@benmoore7946]

4:21 "I didn't know people, I didn't have a network..." ; 4:56 "I had another friend who..." There are people in in Academia who LITERALLY know no one and have no friends left. yes, LITERALLY no one. That's how nefarious academia can be over time. No friends, no family left. just the zombie-colleagues at your department. What do you do then?

[@Roostervane]

Interesting observation. I didn't know people in the knowledge economy, that one friend was from my hometown and worked in the trades--needless to say, sweeping floors for $17/hr wasn't a great hookup. Obviously, I didn't go that route. All of my opportunities came from networking AFTER that, which is to say that I knew LITERALLY nobody in any of the places I would eventually work. None of the opportunities I got came from an existing network. Hope that clarifies.. if you know LITERALLY nobody in a place you could work, which is true of a lot of us, go meet people! There's lots of resources about growing your network on the channel and website

[@benmoore7946]

@@Roostervane Thank you. ☺🙏"networking" is daunting by any definition, and one of the main obstacles for leaving a world that works primarily by isolating us (at least in some disciplines).

[@Roostervane]

@@benmoore7946 It is, but the only way out for most of us is through it. Give it a shot! It might not be as scary as it seems.. It's often worse in our head. Worst thing that can happen is someone will say no to talking to you

[@HUEHUEUHEPony]

why do these people never tell you what the fuck they studied

[@Roostervane]

Religious studies

[@channyngtatum9231]

Dang he really abandoned Walter White and got into Academia.

[@andrewwong8932]

Useless people without meaningful contribution

[@Mathin3D]

Sh t-ademia.

[@vecchio1066]

Chris, the bottom line is that you were not good enough as a researcher. This is not the academia's fault.

[@Roostervane]

🤣 probably!

[@vecchio1066]

@@Roostervane, the main thing is that you had a wrong motivation. If it is the lifestyle, travel etc, then ultimately the question will arise: is academia the only way to all this? One should love research for researcher's sake, only in this case one would make it. This is the experience of 40+ years in academia.

[@Roostervane]

@@vecchio1066 If that makes you feel better (you're wrong), then go ahead and think that about me. But I think you need to look at the 95% of PhDs who don't have any options in academia and ask yourself, "Did they ALL just not work hard enough?"

[@vecchio1066]

@@Roostervane, I have other things to do than to think about everyone who chose to drop out but feel sorry for them. In your case, I was a bit surprised that you haven't actually analysed your own situation. ("The life not analysed is not worth living" - Socrates) The point is that PhDs are essentially cheap and expendable labour and their supervisors are those who exploit them. Therefore, making it into academia is an uphill struggle, and - you are right! - 95% of PhDs find it a gruelling experience and leave academia - to be exploited elsewhere. But - and this is a very big BUT! - this state of affairs is the defining feature of the Western academic system, especially of the US system. And since I came into the Western system from the Russian system, I can see this from the outside. In the Russian system, the PhD supervisor is a lauchpad for PhD students, this is how he/she sees his role. Therefore, all my former PhD students here, in the West, have been brought up in the Russian way - and now they are full professors. In other words, you have been unfortunate not to come across a different research culture than in the US. This is the other side of the coin (in addition to the wrong motivation). Have a think about this.

[@sashanealand8315]

there are no good academic researchers compared to industry researchers. Industry research is the real research because we actually solve problems and produce something. Solving problems in research takes a lot of time and resources. Academics are at best part time researchers working in isolation rather than collaborating also without many resources. So the bottom line is they are not going to be as effective at solving research problems as an industry researcher that does full time research everyday, 40+hours a week in a collaborative innovative resource rich environment. In industry we are not writing grants, papers, teaching, ordering stuff or any of the other busywork academics spend 70% of their time doing because there are other people whose jobs are to do those tasks. We are there at the bench solving collaborating producing. Look around you where do you think everything you see comes from? All the new innovative products and ideas? Its not coming from academia.

[@lucilius121212]

I do not understand this at all 'why you left academia', you were pretty much never in academia...... Doing a PhD is just the start, not really 'being in academia'. You 'left' right after your PhD....

[@Roostervane]

lol sorry. after 15 years of training I guess I should have stayed 5 more years to qualify as having been "in" academia by your definition - I've interviewed hundreds of ppl who have left, from newbies to tenured-profs. The story is pretty much always the same

[@lucilius121212]

@@Roostervane I am not saying the story is different, however, I am not sure where you get the 15 years of training and being in academia. Getting a master or PhD is not 'being in acadamia' , that is being a 'student'. I checked your CV, it was al student related (bachelor's, matster degree and PhD degree. Those are still things you do as a student.

[@jimsykes6843]

@@lucilius121212 This is a ridiculous and insulting comment. Presumably you have never been in a Ph.D. program, so you don't understand that that is certainly "being in academia". It's not the same as an undergrad student. Being a Ph.D. "student" is much more than being a student - and you often get paid a stipend to do it, so it is your job (and you teach). Sincerely, a tenured professor.

[@lucilius121212]

@@jimsykes6843 I have a PhD and a tenure track job.... So yeah, no, your argument doesn't hold. Furthermore, I stand by what I said. He claims he was in academia and mentioned '15 years', nop; being a student does not make you 'in academia'. His LinkedIn bio also shows he did a PhD for 6 years, so tell me, how does he come to 15? Yeah, by adding the time he was a bachelor/master student. So that is already the first red flag. PS. there is a reason why they call it 'a PhD student', see the 'student' there...

[@sashanealand8315]

yeah the professors definitely dont see PhD students as belonging.

[@kevinschafer6345]

never heard so much bs before.