Why I wanted to DIY Build a multigenerational ICF home & Now My Dream is Dead 🥲

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Anyone who wants to skip directly to the 2nd part of my title about why part of my DIY dream is now dead can go to 10:45

[@Lewehot]

They are right about the weight on the roof, it has to hold the load plus a safety factor as people might die if it collapses. Either design it to handle the load or scale it back. This is a problem that can be easily fixed with more money. I thought you were going to say rooftop decks are not allowed.

[@dmo224]

I agree completely. This is one case where I'd say the tattletale may have actually done our host a solid as far as health, safety, insurance/moral/emotional liability are concerned. I'd venture to guess that the steel reinforced concrete in the ICF walls and the foundation footings could support the weight of a roof deck for human activity, it's more an issue with the joists/trusses spanning between the exterior walls. Also, a hot tub is not as insignificant, in terms of weight, as it may seem. For a compact two person tub that is 30"x60" with 2 foot water depth, the weight of the water alone would be in excess of 1,500 lbs. Then there is the weight of the tub itself, pump, heater, filtration, etc. A structural engineer will usually want to know exactly where a client is planning to put things like a piano, large fish tank, cabinet safe or hot tub (or even a "normal" large soaker tub). If the footprint of such a tub was roughly 2.5 ft x 5 ft. then it covers 12.5 square feet. A roof designed to support live loads at 38 lbs./ft in a 12.5 square foot area is **roughly** designed support 475 pounds (average), plus some nominal margin for safety. A roof/floor system can support point loads in excess of the average design load, like why a king size bed with 4 or 5 small feet bearing on a combined area of 6 square inches can support of the weight of the frame, mattress and two adults without punching through the floor. However, a structural engineer or architect take these considerations into account when designing a bedroom and calling out any special framing requirements. Even a tiny 2.5'x5' hot tub exceeds the structural design for live loads by more than 1,000 pounds for the surface area it's bearing on and the architect or engineer who stamped the plans had no idea that a hot tub was going to be on the roof. They designed specifically for an even distribution of snow. The full tub with two people in it, heater/pump support-equipment and maybe a couple of other people standing or sitting nearby means that more than a literal ton of weight could be concentrated on an area where two joists and sheathing were meant to support a sheet of standing seam metal roof, a few screws, underlayment and 475 pounds of snow. A structural engineer could tell you [builder/homeowner] exactly what would need to happen to make the roof deck usable, and the plans could be amended with the city. If the engineer stamps it and says okay, that's what the city would be looking for. I'm not a structural engineer but I'd wager that the I-Joists you got are still perfectly usable, an engineer may simply call for augmentation of what you have. Like, sister up joists here and here, beef up these hangers, use thicker sheathing or maybe add an LVL beam. Based on their recommendations, you could decide if the associated costs and the value proposition of the roof deck are worth it and financially feasible. I agree that the why of it all is a compelling reason to do it, you've got one heck of a view from up there (including down into your neighbors' yards which is maybe what initially prompted the tattling) but you could design in a way that is sensitive to their interests/privacy too.

[@danheidel]

I feel your pain, as I'm in the middle of designing a very similar house up in Michigan and am currently beating my head around some really ridiculous demands from the city for design changes. However, in this case, it might actually require some roof redesign. 38 PSF is pretty low for a deck structure. The standard IBC L/300 strength for a deck is either 50 or 60 PSF, too lazy to look it up right now. You can get some really high stress concentrations with gatherings of people, so it's actually a fairly valid concern. My house has some balconies running around a large 2-story area above the common area and based on my own research and the structural engineer suggestion, I'm having those rated to at least 100 or even 120 PSF. Look into steel trusses. You can achieve crazy high strength with those and they aren't as expensive as you might expect. I don't know what the price is for just steel trusses is, but in my build, all the floors and the roof membrane are all Ecospan, made by Nucor, if I recall. That has a steel truss with steel corrugated deck and a 3.5" concrete slab poured on top. If you're willing to DIY, the final cost for that comes out to roughly $20 a square foot, so a little pricey but not astronomical. Like ICF, the system is surprisingly amenable to DIY and they've had a lot of clients do just that. (You will probably need a decent concrete pour team on hand to handle the actual pour day though.) A system that's just steel trusses should be significantly cheaper. I'd recommend talking to the Ecospan folks, their engineers were really helpful and could point you in the direction of a product that might work for you even if they don't sell it. You should be able to to some sort of redesign or have a structural engineer look at a clever way to do some sort of design mitigation to reach the desired deck strength. If it's not too late, maybe look at beefing up those roof rafters to a greater depth or adding supplementary. Best of luck on this. I had a roof deck on top of my 3 story house but my architect talked me out of it for liability reasons. Ironically, the city suggested I remove an attic storage space and replace it with a rooftop deck... ????

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Thanks for the very thoughtful and insightful response. I didn't think I would need to have the engineer look at it because the I-joist span chart shows that if the deck was a floor I am way over engineered to handle the weight of a regular room on any of my floors. So my thinking was if it can handle the weight of people gathering in a room in should handle the weight of people gathering on a deck. Sounds like if I want to revive the dream I will need to pay more money to the engineer to show the city it can work. With that said given the pressure that someone is putting on the city to try and shut my whole project down there is a good chance they will say no :(

[@danheidel]

@@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild Decks and regular rooms are treated differently in code. Typical residential floor loading is usually 40 PSF live load plus 20 PSF dead load in most jurisdictions since that's what's prescribed in the IBC. Looking up decks, the actual wording in the IBC is: "1.5 times the live load for the area served, not required to exceed 100". I know that a lot of residential codes put decks at 60 PSF and depending on the projected use case, can be required to be higher. (and that's 60-100 PSF live load plus the assumed 20 PSF dead load.) The reasoning is that regular rooms tend to have a lot of furniture that limits the density of people that can be in that space. Decks are often mostly empty and so you can often get far larger loading. While your current plans might call for a lot of rooftop furniture now, you have no control over how that space is used 50 years from now and the code has to take that into consideration. Building codes are written in blood and you always consider the worst case scenario. Massed groups of people can create really bonkers levels of floor loading. Years back the golden gate bridge in SF had a 50th anniversary celebration. They let people walk across the bridge deck before it was re-opened to traffic. The turnout was much higher than expected and the entire bridge filled up with about 300,000 people because of poor crowd control. The result was that the bridge deck was dangerously overloaded and actually lost it's camber temporarily densely since massed people are significantly heavier than dense packed cars. Add in any coordinated dynamic loads like people dancing or jumping in time and you can get crazy amounts of force on a floor membrane. In the case of that rooftop deck, imagine that in the future, someone invites a band over to play up there and 100 people crowd up there and start dancing to the music in time with each other. That kind of loading can easily cause a regular strength interior floor to start dangerously flexing or collapse. Deck failures are common and quite deadly. While it might not make sense in your current use case, the code is always looking for preventing a perfect storm type of scenario in the future. Since this is a home that will house many future generations of your family, that actually makes it even more important to cover every possible use case. Look up the Versailles wedding hall disaster to see what the worst case of an understrength floor in a large gathering area can do. It was an Israeli wedding in a hotel where an understrength floor collapsed when people were dancing. The resulting collapse killed 23 and injured over 300 people. If your engineer drew up these diagrams with the knowledge that it was a rooftop deck and underdesigned it, you may have a case for forcing them to redo that design work as they did not do it properly. If your engineer did do the work properly, you should push back against the city since a certified engineer stamp almost always trumps any other considerations when it comes to code compliance. As for the city, you shouldn't make assumptions. The motivations of the person who called the city don't matter as much as what the city cares about. Talk to the city officials to find out exactly what their concerns are. It may be that they are fine with a rooftop deck as long as you increase the max rooftop loading capacity. Or maybe they don't like the idea of a rooftop deck. Those two different scenarios will greatly affect how they deal with your plans. In the former, a redesign of the roof means that you can easily move forward. The latter means that it will be a huge struggle and they'll look for other ways to prevent you from making that deck. You won't know which situation you're in unless you directly contact the city officials and get their feedback. My guess is that it's the former but you owe it to yourself to just talk to those folks and find out. It's easy to feel a bit fatalistic about the situation right now but it's probably not as bad as you think it is. In my case, my design went to the city review board and despite fully complying with code, they came back with demands that I significantly reduce the size of my house and not use ICF construction for it. I responded that while I was open to incorporating the many other change requests they had, I was not willing to compromise on those first two points and would cancel the project if they were implemented. They quickly dropped any objections to ICF construction and we're having a followup meeting to discuss the house size, hopefully that goes well.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

@@danheidel What a thoughtful response. You have given me a lot to think about. Sounds like if I do decide to go forward with trying to get the rooftop deck approved that it will be well worth paying my structural engineer the money to make sure it could handle whatever my future posterity throws at it. My plan was a small 10'x20' area for the deck and the rest will be solar panels. But you are correct that future generations could toss the solar panels and want to hold an epic dance party up there. So it is best to plan for all contingencies. Thanks again for taking the time to help me catch the big vision. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

[@maninabox32697]

Sorry to hear somebody decided to get in the way of your happiness. As the other person said, maybe this doesnt have to be a permanent roadblock, but I understand how it could be discouraging. Thank you for posting all of these videos. I know they don’t get that many views, but I think a lot of us appreciate seeing the process from your point of view. I’m learning lots!

[@Ahambric1998]

I’d assume having a roof top area would require railing. If that’s the case is that included in your 35ft max height?

[@yodaiam1000]

The live load requirements for floors in houses is usually 40psf in most codes (I am a structural engineer but I don't work with US codes). So your roof is strong enough if you designed it for 38psf (close enough). But regardless, how does this change your plans? The city approved your plans and you are building to those plans. The city will tell not to go on the roof but how does that stop you from going up on your roof?

[@carlkenyon4599]

EXACTLY ! or get your engineer to submit a modification . Redesign your roof into a rooftop patio

[@notjoesaveragegardening6231]

Almost all jurisdictions where i live just need an engineer to sign off on the design of a roof top load. Not sure what your city code says and yes that would mean hiring someone to do calculations that you already know but it could allow you to keep going. Again not sure if local code overrides that or not

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

I'll check with my city to see if they are good with the span table or if I need to pay more money for another stamp.

[@mikegrok]

My wife is an amputee and often uses a power wheelchair, though she can also walk a bit. Going upstairs or downstairs can be hazardous on her own. For a multi story residence we would need an elevator, or at least have the house designed for her to need to go upstairs infrequently. Also wider hallways, with fewer zig zags. My site is on a flood plain that has not come close to flooding since they put the interstate in. The water table is 8 inches below ground level 5 days after a rain, so basements will not be an option. I plan to make a small hill and have an enclosed insulated crawl space.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

The main level for my parents will have all of the aging in place characteristics. My daughter took an interior design class in college and learned a ton about the concepts and that was actually her final project. As for the elevator we don't have the money to put it in now but we have planned a spot for it.

[@Blah-y7u]

I am so very saddened by hearing this news. I hope that there is a way to modify the design affordably that will allow fruition to come for your dreams.

[@brianowoseni5079]

We used to live in Salt Lake and went back to visit last year. I couldn't believe how congested it felt compared to 2014 when we moved to Texas. Driving through the valley was CRAZY. I love Salt Lake, but the house prices are madness; we couldn't move back now. I am designing my future ICF home for my posterity too, so you're on the right track.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

It's a beautiful place to live but the secret is out and people are flooding in and the prices are skyrocketing for sure. Good luck on your ICF build. It's a lot of work but a lot of fun :)

[@Upliftyourbrothers]

Shoot, sorry to hear. I guess you could always have an engineer take a look at your structure and see what it would take to get your prints ‘stamped’ for a deck up there. If they say it needs an engineer stamp, I’m sure you’re strong enough. Concrete walls and your roof span is cut in half with the beam. I’d call an engineer.

[@keithh9491]

Also it is not like you need the whole roof as a deck, a smaller space would restrict the number of people up there. My thought was would the rails around the deck bring you over the 35ft limit.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Most of the roof is going to be filled with solar panels so the deck was going to be a very small part. I was planning on going with glass railing so it really wouldn't have been visible from the street anyway.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Thanks. I will probably end up spending the money to have the engineer stamp it but first I will need to check with the city about the railing issue first.

[@Upliftyourbrothers]

@@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild a ‘solar access’ platform. You know… a safe place to stage for maintenance… flip up rails only deployed when doing safety checks.

[@lawrence575]

I’ve ran into this argument before so as I understand it’s that people can congregate in one area at anytime whereas snow tends to fall evenly. It’s all about weight balance and not bearing weight. But just have an engineer look over the plans

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Good point. I just thought that because it met the load for a regular floor that it would meet the load for a roof.

[@vadjrob]

I just wanted to encourage you. I see a few folks feeling the need to complain about your titling or the length of time into the video before you began addressing the nature of the title. Please remember the math when you see this negativity. Your view and your subscriber count keeps growing. Look at those current totals. Just as most folks in your neighborhood are likely inspired by your endeavor, most that take the time to view your content are as well whether they comment or not. Entitlement and impatience are rampant these days. Those with a sour word seem to trip over themselves to express their opinion. They seem to forget that beating others down doesn’t in fact elevate them. Your foundation appears much more stable and capable 😉 . If nothing more, I’d attribute that it’s built to serve others above yourself above the concrete it’s made of. If you subtract the naysaying comments and general gripes from your overall numbers, you’re left with a fantastic majority who either didn’t feel the need to take up your precious time with their comments, moved on to another video, or a plethora of other possibilities. Your numbers tell a more positive story. I for one, appreciate your long form sharing of how the situation is landing at your feet. It’s as educational as it is brave in my humble opinion. These accounts you’ve shared since the beginning of your journey offer a certain insight to your level of ambition. I’d venture a guess that you will continue to persevere! I doubt you’d accept less from yourself for your family. If you were a man who settles for less for your loved ones, you’d be in that tiny home currently. As you move forward the best you can, I look forward to all you care to share of your growth and success. There may very well be current or future viewers that take strength and example from the path you take the time and effort to recount. Many aren’t fans of long form content. There’s plenty out there for them to watch without criticizing. Others will embrace it. It’s generally taken as more honest and worthwhile. As much as the various forms of communication that aren’t face to face would have us believe… negativity and division don’t rule the majority of hearts. I find that most people, especially when given the chance, DO in fact care! May you continue to smile into that camera and know that you can’t possibly quantify the reach of your efforts. The mind boggles to consider the number of people touched by your videos by the time your grandchildren’s grandchildren enjoy them.

[@gratefulone5889]

I am sorry to hear that someone was a tattle-tale on your roof deck. I thought you have an engineer already, Aaron. I agree with Upliftyourbrother's comments below. You sound so disappointed. Perhaps the dream is not dead. You have overcome so much to make this happen ... perhaps this is something that can be overcome too.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Hopefully so :)

[@towjam37]

38lbs/sqft isn’t very much. I’m nearly 200lbs and could easily stand inside of 1-2sqft on a roof. You definitely wouldn’t want to damage your roof…

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

I checked the span table and the roof rafters can carry more weight than the floors below. So maybe there is still hope?

[@PresidentDoochBag]

Yeah I don’t think his numbers are correct, first he said 38 inches of snow then he said 38lbs / sqft.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

38 psf is the snow load for my area that I have to build to.

[@BigDAg889]

Social media was your downfall..sorry for your struggle

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Yeah… makes me think twice about wanting to share my journey but at the same time I have learned so much from others who have posted here on KZbin that I want to pay it forward so that others can learn from my successes and failures. So for now I will keep posting 😊

[@gratefulone5889]

At minute 10:45 ... still waiting :-)

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

Actually that is where it starts :)

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

You only needed to wait 1 more second. It actually starts at 10:46 :)

[@gratefulone5889]

At minute 8:45 and waiting to hear about how your dream is dead, Aaron. Are you going to have to stop building?

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

I got the distinct impression from my call with the city that whoever contacted them wanted the city to shut down my build and have me tear down the house :( And when the city said no then they wanted the city to prohibit me from having my family live with us and when the city said no then they told the city about my roof top deck plans and the city said yes we can shut that down. I am still confused by why they would do this. There are other homes in our area that are 35' high ( 1 that is right across the street from me) and there are plenty of homes that have multigenerational living going on. It's in our city code that it is allowed. So I really don't get why they are upset. I am so glad I don't live in an HOA.

[@petertate8465]

Hang in there! I have been waiting for almost a year to get a permit for my ICF home in an urban area. Before that it was a year to get permission to subdivide a lot. Surely you could have your engineer use shorter spacing for the ceiling/roof joists and get the appropriate support for a traffic deck on the roof. How were you going to adjust for the roof slope? I designed my roof decks for 80 psf which is typical for an outdoor deck in KY. I am using pavers with adjustable support legs to level the deck.

[@Stiggandr1]

It is so wild to me that the city and county can just callously say what you can and can't do with your property. Certainly some things make sense directly pertaining to safety and situationally protecting the aesthetic of a city or vista, but so much more just sounds like the failure of the city drafting the ordinance to have adequate edge case handling.

[@ClannerJake]

you're renting it, try not paying property taxes and see who ends up with the title.

[@Aidan-tu4un]

While it is a sad reflection on the nature of some humans. I am 220 lbs and when standing I reckon the surface area (size 12 boots) is about 1 sq ft... So I guess I won't be getting an invite any time soon !!

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

I think you would be just fine. Especially because my I-Joist manufacturer says that my build can handle your weight if it was just a regular floor.

[@davemiller6121]

Never underestimate Karen's ability to mess up your stuff, especially one with nothing better to do. They always need to find someone to talk to. I try to engage my Karen's in conversation as often as possible, you have to keep them occupied.

[@markinvt]

I think you're overreacting with "my dream is dead." How long do you think it would have taken before your neighbor complained to shut down your rooftop party? I'm thinking one time. You just found out now rather than later.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

That’s not the type of rooftop parties that we are into 😂 it would’ve been more chill and small get together with neighbors and friends. Think more like marshmallows and maybe a guitar and sing along plus I go to bed at 9 o’clock at night. 😂

[@markinvt]

@@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild Okay but your dream is not dead. You're still building your multigenerational home, which, I might add, doesn't look like it fits with the character of the neighborhood. I could be wrong but from the angle at which you're shooting the video, the houses look like ranches or 2 story colonials. That's what happens in localities with no or little zoning ordinances. Anyway, more power to you, enjoy, and peace!

[@baptistlion4060]

How ridiculous. I pray some engineer can help you with this.

[@prepostrs2]

Unsubscribing due to clickbait title. Not having a roof deck is a tiny part of the dream imo.

[@LegacyViewsICFhomeBuild]

I'm sorry that you felt it was a click bait title. If you talk to anyone who I have given a tour to of the house will tell you that the feature that I have been the most excited about has been the roof top deck.

[@vadjrob]

I just wanted to encourage you. I see a few folks feeling the need to complain about your titling or the length of time into the video before you began addressing the nature of the title. Please remember the math when you see this negativity. Your view and your subscriber count keeps growing. Look at those current totals. Just as most folks in your neighborhood are likely inspired by your endeavor, most that take the time to view your content are as well whether they comment or not. Entitlement and impatience are rampant these days. Those with a sour word seem to trip over themselves to express their opinion. They seem to forget that beating others down doesn’t in fact elevate them. Your foundation appears much more stable and capable 😉 . If nothing more, I’d attribute that it’s built to serve others above yourself above the concrete it’s made of. If you subtract the naysaying comments and general gripes from your overall numbers, you’re left with a fantastic majority who either didn’t feel the need to take up your precious time with their comments, moved on to another video, or a plethora of other possibilities. Your numbers tell a more positive story. I for one, appreciate your long form sharing of how the situation is landing at your feet. It’s as educational as it is brave in my humble opinion. These accounts you’ve shared since the beginning of your journey offer a certain insight to your level of ambition. I’d venture a guess that you will continue to persevere! I doubt you’d accept less from yourself for your family. If you were a man who settles for less for your loved ones, you’d be in that tiny home currently. As you move forward the best you can, I look forward to all you care to share of your growth and success. There may very well be current or future viewers that take strength and example from the path you take the time and effort to recount. Many aren’t fans of long form content. There’s plenty out there for them to watch without criticizing. Others will embrace it. It’s generally taken as more honest and worthwhile. As much as the various forms of communication that aren’t face to face would have us believe… negativity and division don’t rule the majority of hearts. I find that most people, especially when given the chance, DO in fact care! May you continue to smile into that camera and know that you can’t possibly quantify the reach of your efforts. The mind boggles to consider the number of people touched by your videos by the time your grandchildren’s grandchildren enjoy them.