Why Is No One Talking About Nightshift? And Is That Ok?

[@ES-yc1tp]

Games about: colonization, exploitation, war, murder , drug lords 😊 Strippers 😠

[@fy8798]

If Kingdom Death is fine, I'm not sure why this would be beyond the pale. It seems very weird that strippers - women who intentionally strip - is too much, but a game entirely about sexploitation & bloodgore, is fine and gets covered a lot. Games where you play Jack the Ripper though? There's several, murdering the strippers is fine apparently! It seems lopsided. That people are angry about this particular game existing is just wild to me. I get not wanting to play it - I don't particularly and I didn't back it - but the anger to it just seems so weirdly puritanical.

[@jadew1673]

This is a decent argument. I do think the 'unreal' setting of KDM softens the blow of the themes. It is an over the top game that does get coverage, but to be fair, rarely does the extreme stuff get shown in a video. With nightshift, the whole theme is 'extreme' to some people, so it's a bit different. To be clear, I don't have an issue with either game, but I can see why people have a problem with one and not the other, even it's a bit incongruous.

[@gasa5251]

@@jadew1673 So the violence is ok in KDM, The Bloody Inn, Vengence, 6 Seige, This War of Mine, Vampire the Masquerade Chapters etc etc ... I find it strange we as a people are more comfortable with violence than our own bodies. - look at the violence in the video game industry, talk about desensitizing our kids

[@Kalnaur]

@@gasa5251 I mean, Western world values have trended towards the Puritanical/Victorian attitudes about our bodies for a good long time now. I absolutely think we should work to change that, but I'm hardly surprised that there's a measure of pearl clutching happening in regards to the game. Basically, I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.

[@dvoid665]

Because sexualizing women is good for some people as long as the women themselves are not profiting from it. This game was created by an actual former stripper.

[@mithrandir510]

So a game like Scarface 1920 when you play gangsters is okay but a game when you plays stripper is not ? ....

[@exoticcancer]

Thanks Alex, you’re one of the few who gave a thoughtful reply privately and I’m glad that the dialogue is now public. I understand if a single reviewer has a family friendly channel, but it’s a bit harder to accept when 90%+ of reviewers selectively apply that reasoning to Nightshift. When so few voices cover the game, the impact of a single reviewer deliberately misinterpreting the rules, skipping most key mechanics and using sensationalist controversy for views is especially disappointing. Thankfully we have managed to get a couple of channels happy to do a play through so people can see an unbiased representation (releasing soon), however I’m conscious that many people don’t have time to watch that and remain reliant on reviewers. It’s been unexpectedly challenging to say the least!

[@Kalnaur]

I'm honestly glad he did this video if only because it put the game on my radar. I'm still undecided on if I'm going to back it, but I like knowing about it, at least, and I wouldn't have even known about it without this video. It does feel a bit odd to me that there are games that portray a variety of workers doing jobs that are less than safe and healthy, or games that portray women miniatures with the same level of clothing as your miniature models, or games about raking in the cash, but when it's specifically about stripping it's suddenly too taboo for words. I do have to wonder if my aroace nature has anything to do with me not really buying into the salaciousness everyone else seems to assign to a job that is essentially getting naked while doing gymnastics that would have killed me as a teen, and getting paid for it. Now I am ABSOLUTELY sure there's more to the job than that, of course, but that's sort of what it's known for, and even what it's known for (getting naked or semi-naked, pole dancing) isn't even specifically sexual in nature. We've just decided to portray the entire concept and industry (and sex itself) as so entirely taboo that it has become an inappropriate topic to talk about in all venues.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

I agree that its stupid to tolerate violence more then sex in media / games. But its verry evident thats the case for the larger public, so It shouldnt be any surprise.

[@Kalnaur]

I’m not surprised, merely disappointed.

[@AeronwyD]

@@Kalnaur Same. Not surprised but I am disappointed in the response from reviewers and the public about this game, given what other games are out there.

[@cartmanbeck]

@exoticcancer I'm so glad to see your game doing so well on Kickstarter, and I am equally disappointed to see it being ignored by the vast majority of board game creators. I think once the game starts making its way to peoples' hands, you'll see more coverage of it because these creators will be hearing from their viewers how disappointed they are to not see the coverage. I really enjoyed playtesting Nightshift, and I can't wait until it gets to me!

[@timwanger4491]

Sounds like a very American conversation. Gore, blood and splatter are fine but beware if one nipple is visible 😂

[@ScytheNoire]

It is the one country that has had mass shootings for decades, but has done nothing to change things. Meanwhile, Australia had one mass shooting, and there was an huge crackdown on guns. It's very interesting what's acceptable in certain cultures/societies and not in others.

[@stevenharris6161]

American conservatism.

[@whiskeygamesnerdstuff789]

reminds me of an older south park episode about sex and violence

[@chrishudson9525]

@@stevenharris6161 The board game community and makers tend to be very progressive actually. This isn't prudishness so much as not wanting to step on the female objectification landmine. by contrast, dying or being killed tends to be disproportionality represented by male or monster or robot, so no one cares.

[@chrishudson9525]

@@ScytheNoire Increasing gun restrictions doesn't prevent mass shootings in the US, and a lot of mass shootings are prevented or reduced in severity by citizens carrying guns themselves. What any of this has to do with finding gore and violence acceptable within a fictional game setting, I have no idea...

[@Sthunderrocker]

I want Leisure Suit Larry the Board Game!

[@pogdog69]

100%

[@ScytheNoire]

"Because Thursday is your night in the barrel." I'm not sure what the proper age for Leisure Suit Larry is/was, but I remember playing it when it came out, so I was around thirteen. I played all the Sierra games back then, not that there was a ton of choices like today, but those adventure games hold a special place in my growing up and love of computer games.

[@CaribouKai]

If you added swords to the figures with no other changes to a high fantasy rpg no one woulda batted an eye. Now that they're in a setting where they belong, there's pearl clutching.

[@jadew1673]

How do you figure this? It's not about the art, it's about the theme. A fantasy rpg isn't dealing with sexwork.

[@ScytheNoire]

Oh, there was plenty of pearl clutching with fantasy themed games. I remember specifically Tiny Epic Dungeons having faux outrage over cleavage on a fantasy character on the cover. It was ridiculous. The BGG forums are toxic, and the moderators there even worse.

[@soporific9212]

​@ScytheNoire are you referring to the post going over the unnecessary sexualization of female characters in settings and environments that don't call for it? Lol there was nothing wrong with that post and they made plenty of good points that make it a farcry from "faux outrage".

[@GameBrigade]

​@@soporific9212 but sexualizing these women are ok?

[@IsraelNorth-q8s]

​@@jadew1673 I'm guessing this was figured by not considering stripping sexwork. Believe it or not, plenty of strippers are normal people who just take their clothes off for money. Considering all stripping sexwork would mean people who pose as nude models are also sexworkers, and by going out from there, the artists painting those models are sexworkers. It can continue to spiral out from there. Before too long the family growing flowers to use in pigments to make the paints are part of the sex trade.

[@ajtame]

The point "there are loads of games about murder/violence but adult content and people lose their minds" is the exact reason why people shouldn't be angry about this game. Makes no sense at all. It's the equivalent of when you watch UFC and they bleep out swearing. People's values make no sense.

[@coreytaylor8982]

Haha yeah inconsistant is right. Everyone covered scarface 1920 where you could have brothels and sell "madams" for profit but now the game where you have to play as the stripper is too far? Guess its just cause its the main aspect of the game and not in the peripheral. Okay to play as the exploiter not the exploited? Anyways jist a thought i have no problem woth either game and scarface is alot of fun

[@Spidoink]

Yep, half of these reviewers out there are the problem. They're going to stand behind some fake morals just to get street cred with their viewers

[@Hasmanian]

From what I read of the campaign, you're still playing an exploiter in this game. Maybe the controversy is so many men might not want to see themselves reflected in the exploited category.

[@Trogdor_Strongbraid]

It's like knowing something is happening and actively ignoring it which helps others profit off of it. Versus seeing what it is. Most folks aren't brave enough to do that or have a tough enough time as is surviving.

[@MrShalimgar]

@@Trogdor_Strongbraid Is this game actively trying to fight against stripping and its dangers? If so, how is it doing that ? How is it not promoting something that is happening and actively contributing to it which helps others profit off of it?

[@WendyGa]

Sounds like an American bias. There is a lot less prudish reaction to sex as a topic in continental Europe in my experience. But I do appreciate you spending the time to think about it and articulate your thoughts.

[@ScytheNoire]

America is the country where the Christian right is trying to install an authoritarian theocracy where their "Christian values" dictate every other persons lives.

[@jasontemple6140]

Which is weird as America has more strip clubs than any other country

[@ScytheNoire]

@@jasontemple6140 That is why saying about a certain political affiliation always being hypocrites and projecting is said so often.

[@shinigami1619]

While I understand people who won't buy this game because they feel it doesn't suit them or feel offended, I believe the people whose job is to cover games should not fall into the same category, they should just put a disclaimer at the start and review it as any other game

[@otakuofmine]

The main point is: it is made by an ex dancer to fight the Stigma surrounding by a certain humour (that isnt childish but realistic-sarcastic). It is your choice obviously, but as someone covering board games it is your job to cover them. Like you said, many other games you covered have sensibilities. this is a double standard you should work on. A CW on every such games would be fine enough and doesnt incapacitates the viewer in their choice. The problem is: with not directly talking about it, you arent helping the Stigma and "part" of the problem. I backed it as i like the look, mechanics and feel obviously, but also cause many of my friends are s*x workers and I almost did it myself. I know the stigma and stories, so it was cool to see this come about. And yeah, it was successful, but videos like those or their absence show how much it is needed. Kudos for making a video at all, but I hope you rethink it. It is a missed chance. little info for people that dont know: you play as the dancers, so it is not a client simulation.

[@otakuofmine]

little note: i know, you probably didnt mean it like that. but for others: kids are not an argument when plenty of games not for kids have been covered already.

[@soporific9212]

My thoughts exactly. It almost seems like Alex is right on the cusp of getting it but falls short due to his western bias/indoctrination. Though I agree I'm glad he made a video on this at all, it's painful hearing him go on and on about the unfair inconsistencies at play here while simultaneously but most likely unknowingly contributing to said stigma and inconsistencies.

[@stevenharris6161]

100%. And for the other comment - it isn’t western bias/indoctrination, it’s just American conservatism at its finest.

[@otakuofmine]

@@soporific9212 well said. sometimes not easy to see the shortcomings if you are not aware. thats why hope he still might get it.

[@otakuofmine]

@@stevenharris6161 yeah, it is more universal, but to a degree i understand how they meant it. Dunno if say conservatism for him, but definitely the upbringing in that culture and no contact to that kind of worker demographic.

[@LucaDelbello-wz1xb]

From a European standpoint, this discussion just shows how much the mainstream narrative in the US, in general, is still so connected with its Puritan roots. Not wanting to talk about something does not make that certain thing disappear, it only shows a degree of immaturity (like a kid..."let's not talk about this, it makes me feel bad") and lack of confrontation over a given subject. It's the controversial subjects that actually create real debates and a constructive dialectics. Just my 2 european cents.

[@dvoid665]

I'm from Mexico and I agree with you that Americans are way too uptight.

[@davidautinify]

not knowing anything about the game until this video, i sorta expected it to include nudity, but (at least after a cursory glance at the KS page) there isn't any. and the artwork isn't any worse than something like Middara. so really, it's just the topic itself that's "taboo." but like Alex mentioned, it does seem like a double standard that some folks take issue with exotic dancing when they don't with way more graphic/vulgar/violent/insensitive topics in board games. anyway. your channel, your choice to cover the games you want to cover. i appreciate you sharing your self reflection (lol i almost typed "shelf reflection") on the topic. :)

[@JulietMcArthur]

A pet peeve of mine is when Canadian content creators use American metrics. Canada ≠ America, and even saying North American preferences is way too vague when it comes to sexual themes. Utah and Québec are on two VERY different wavelengths 😅. I'm not dissing on American values btw.

[@blueseqperl]

Not every game is for everyone. I was surprised that you didn't discuss that this being designed by someone from an underrepresented group. Her perspective focused on the game from making money as a business. Board games have exploited women between mechanics (e.g., Letters from White Chapel) to art (e.g., Lords of Hellas) without anyone saying anything. While an adult-oriented theme, it gives the women agency to make money and includes diverse body types in its player pieces and diversity in its patrons. I'm grateful for smaller KZbin channels for covering games like Night Shift, Gay Sauna, Dick Sits, etc. Games with LGBTQ+ themes get a lot less coverage as they also tend to be risque. The one mainstream game I did not like was Puerto Rico for its white washing of slavery. Again, not every game is for everyone. As the industry matures, there will be more divisive games as more diverse folks bring their unique ideas to the table. I'm here for it as it would be incredibly boring to only have Mediterranean trading, fantasy and space games.

[@SlimPihkins]

It’s your channel. Review whatever you want, but don’t blame the audience. The audience doesn’t need to be handled with kid gloves. They choose whether to click on your videos or not. If it’s a personal reason, cool. Views and engagement with let you know if your audience likes the content or not.

[@BoardGameCo]

I'm not blaming anyone. But I also won't pretend that my perception of the audience's opinion isn't a factor in my choices.

[@Reinshark]

Content warnings are also not that hard to do.

[@pogdog69]

4300+ backers seem to not care what others think and are quite happy to support the project.

[@911Gargoyle]

Indeed. It's doing very well to be honest. Good for them.

[@ScytheNoire]

I follow a number of people on Kickstarter, to see what others back, and it's interesting to see who is backing it. It raised my opinion of certain people who did back it.

[@anab0lic]

@@ScytheNoire why would it raise it? The gameplay looks terrible.

[@TheRetroMachineTV]

4300 but I bet many are definitely hypocrites that whine and complain about women’s rights and women’s dignity and then they support something like that which objectifies women and sees their bodies as a commodity. That’s fine, just so they are aware that their whining is 100% falling on deaf ears now.

[@MattD007]

People just want stripper minis.

[@Carlos52024]

I 100% think you overestimated your audience's bias towards this theme/game. I wouldn't say it's unfair, the moral minority is quite vocal and it's a real concern for content creators. Obviusly if you personally don't want to cover a game then don't, but if your only hesitation is audience reception I'd say trust us on the next one. Or put out a community poll ahead of time! Always happy to participate in one of those.

[@thomasromanelli2561]

There is a double standard at work here, although I appreciate your explanation as to why you chose not to cover this game. I fail to understand where the Overton Window boundaries exist where a game like John Company is critically acclaimed but a game with adult themes won't be covered by many popular reviewers. Both are based on exploitation and the pursuit of profit. So be it. I'm happy that the designer has found a suitable audience willing to explore this theme, and think it both funny and thematic that the Collector's Edition will arrive with a "discreet box sleeve". Well done, madame! Incidentally, this is NOT the first game to broach this kind of topic: I backed and received Lap Dance (Artipia Games, 2015), OrgasMe! (Michael Neumann, 2016) and Consentacle (Naomi Clark, 2018). The gameplay was meh, and I have since traded/sold the games except Consentacle (which had some very specific parameters that were part of the designers intent). I appreciate your sensibilities and opinions, Alex, but on this topic I would politely disagree with you. 🖖

[@MorganFleurDeLys]

This is fair commentary. Some of it is definitely content creators’s fear of pushback and being cancelled. I support board games with adult themes if they are indeed good games.

[@BoardGameCo]

That's absolutely fair.

[@Pos3id0n]

I haven't looked at the game at all so take my opinion as you want. As an European I don't think I know a single person that would care about this. If you (or any content creator) don't want to review it because it goes against your beliefs or you want to keep the channel child friendly I get it but someone stating that this game shouldn't exist purely because of its theme is completely asinine and I will automatically assume you live in the USA if you make this comment.

[@MrShalimgar]

For what it's worth: I'm from Europe and I care :) Not a question of beliefs, but a question of my understanding of women's rights and the need to protect them - now more then ever. In Europe (the US anyways...) and elsewhere

[@dcrbdh]

Taking a cursory look at the KS, I don't think anyone is going to be sexually aroused by playing this game. In my profession, I have spoken to women who have done sex work in a wide range of activities. Their stories seem similar to what this game appears to portray. There seems to be a message behind the game. We play games that tell stories, and this game tells a story, too. Looking at the customer art for the game of nightshift, I was struck thinking, "Ugh... this is who I'd have to entertain??". It makes you think about the women who do this for a job. Games can make us think, and not playing this game made me think.

[@zerocool3742]

lol, yup, definitely backing the game now. :)

[@mboyce8853]

I appreciate this post. It seems fair to discuss content sensitivity. You give a very thoughtful and considerate deliberation of the topic.

[@IsraelNorth-q8s]

Really looking forward to the next set of random questions!

[@Doujou]

Boardgame reviewers exist because of boardgamers who buy and play boardgames. This is obviously a boardgame that boardgamers are wanting. It’s not some weird campaign with 23 backers. Elvis was too provocative at one point too. Look where we are now. (This coming from someone not backing and having no interest in this game)

[@BoardGameCo]

I do wonder what portion of this audience are mass market vs the typical board game audience

[@ScytheNoire]

@@BoardGameCo I follow a lot of board gamer KZbinrs and publishers on Kickstarter, and it's interesting to see who's backed Nightshift. :)

[@DarkEagleness]

Appreciate you opening the discussion and sharing your thoughts on this

[@thegreatdane908]

To say "Anyone who would play this game, I would never want to sit down at a table and play with them." is a pretty bold statement, and feels very judgmental. Maybe that isn't exactly what you meant, but dang. And maybe the better boundary pushing question would be people examining their own biases around this. Why is it ok for kids to see violence all over the place which is just normalizing hate, divide and literally hurting other people, while it isn't ok for kids to see nudity, which when it comes down to it is basically about love, understanding and recognition? Which to the statement of "This bad thing is fine so this other bad thing should be fine", but as I (someone who was born and grew up in north america) view it, violence is bad, there is almost no way in which violence is a positive for society. While nudity on the other hand, is not. It is only viewed as bad, but when viewed respectfully (which our society isn't great at) it is very hard for it to be a negative for society. I appreciate you talking about it at all!

[@aeryellae5837]

I guess the concern is that if you start editing out certain board games (I'm specifically thinking of your To Back or Not To Back Series, not your other content), you stop being a reliable resource for learning about ongoing kickstarter campaigns. So even if you're uncomfortable about the subject matter, if it's large enough to warrant coverage, I would cover it and let people make their own judgments. As noted, this view only applies to To Back or Not to Back. What you choose to review, unbox etc. has no impact upon your credibility. As an aside, the reality is that most of your audience is fine with this game existing. With most things online, it's usually a vocal fringe minority yelling into the void.

[@TheJeroenbrouwer]

This is why europeans laugh at americans.

[@br1ns4n]

This isn’t an American thing. Have no idea why he brought us into his stupid ass ideology.

[@charlesgurr4073]

Still playing Pandemic? I’m sure that’s a bit close to home for some people now. I looked at this game and was tempted by the KS but in the end decided I didn’t need more games at the moment. There does seem to be a prudishness against adult themes compared to violence. I can understand as a channel wanting to not cover this because of having an audience which is focused on younger people. But let’s be very careful about refusing to cover certain things. I think this video is well done and appreciate that you’re talking about the topic. There is no right answer and all anybody can do is choose what’s right for them, but that choice should always be available.

[@FlamethrowerJane]

From what I've seen, it isn't really an "adult" game, it's just a game about strippers. I would happily watch a video review about it just like any other. If someone isn't interested, can't they just not watch the review? The block against this game stained me as very bizarre and puritanical, esp since the designer is a former stripper.

[@BoardGameCo]

Unfortunately some things are things people don't even want to see on a channel

[@FlamethrowerJane]

Yes, I get that and you do cover a lot of family friendly and kids' games. Still, I'm hoping your next survey proves the vast majority of your followers are not so petty and would simply skip a Nightshift review the same way they'd skip a review for any game they're not interested in.

[@GI-JOEs]

A board game is a board game, it should be covered.

[@sabamesa1748]

But youtubers are people too... so because he is a boardgame reviewer is bound to review all? He is human too so he is in his right to cover it or not depending on his own criteria no?

[@GI-JOEs]

@@sabamesa1748 Totally Agree, i'm not saying he should. I'm saying the game should be covered.

[@zerocool3742]

18+ board game, 18+ coverage content creators should cover maybe...

[@sabamesa1748]

@@GI-JOEs I think Alex mentioned 2 reviewers are doing it. And yes, I agree it should be covered by of course by someone who is passionate about it. Saying that because I believe all the ones who said no are being judged by saying no.

[@rb4551]

I think the game looks fine. I think I personally wouldnt play it because I play with kids or people who would not care for the adult theme but I have absolutely no issues with it being on the market. I see no issues with reviewers passing on it for the same reasons...just a taste thing. You are a family man, it wouldnt really make sense for you to cover this. That said, I do always get surprised at how many Americans are so easily flustered over sex and totally ok with guns violence and school shooting and so on so forth. It feels like a weird disease from a Canadian point of view. Must be a religious thing. Catholic religion has pretty much always shamed sexuality while partaking casually in violence.

[@betterthanflapjacks]

I’m an American citizen and I too find the hypocrisy absurd.

[@chaholland8541]

It seems to have a lot of heart behind it, and the theme is fresh. That counts for a lot with me. A bit lighter than I'm interested in as a game, but I'm happy to see it doing well. And there is a massive audience out there that aren't following typical game reviewers. While I don't personally see any issue with the topic, and support reducing stigma around it, I agree people should be able to choose whatever fits their interests and audience. What it highlights for me is the importance of having a diverse landscape of channels and reviewers. If it's true that most people chose not to cover it that is sad to me. The best coverage I've seen has been by women, and I hope some smaller channels have fun with it.

[@stacie_everdell]

To each their own, including you, Alex. I have no problem with it, personally. But if I did, I can choose not to see it by just turning my head and playing another game...the way I do with all the horror and zombie games. 😆

[@SPQRKlio]

😄👍

[@mithrandir510]

Have you asked Meg what she tought ?

[@cfosburg]

This topic is where people become the most judgmental, condescending, condemning, and non-tolerant of other’s opinions, views and values. It is not for anyone to say what someone should or shouldn’t except.

[@kenkosten2257]

Thanks for mentioning in the poll podcast. I had skipped over this podcast because I was not interested in Night Shift. However, I did enjoy the conversation. I think it is important to keep asking what is not O.K. and why. The answer is not as important as the need to keep asking the question.

[@justinsavioli7875]

I have no problem with this game existing and one of my friends is backing it. I would probably play it. But I don’t really have an issue with the theme. I find it so weird that people freak out about nudity and not violence

[@robertthurman9866]

Ask Professor Meg if she want to give it a try.

[@BoardGameCo]

I'll let her decide that, doesn't really impact my opinion on it

[@robertjanisch3324]

idk why adult content in board games matter... who the hell cares, its mostly an adult hobby when you really start to dive deep into it anyway.... man the fact that this even a topic is ridiculous

[@basdevries2459]

It's so North-American to not wanting to cover a theme around adult-topics (like nudity), while it's more then common for most North-American to indulge themselves with violence and blood-shed. Why all the anxiety for nudity? It's a shame that content creators have decided not to give attention to this game, probably being scared for bad comments. I would love to see more unique and rare themes like this being presented then gore slasher thematic board games of which more then thousands. Apart from this I think it's good you covered this Alex and I am happy for exotic cancer the campaign is doing well.

[@afrofrycook]

It's okay for different cultures to have different preferences in what they want to engage in actually.

[@BoardGameCo]

I agree it's a North American sensitivity, but I don't think that inherently means it should be ignored.

[@marvinp90]

@@BoardGameCoAs a North American I find it frustrating that certain sensibility frequently overrides my own just because they are louder. I think as its success has shown the “North American sensibility” is not as unanimous as people think

[@FlamethrowerJane]

I also think it's not just simple American sensibilities: I believe it's more about people who have kids not wanting them to see the game on a shelf at home. Personally, I'm finding the lack of reviews annoying, especially since the game is not about sex: it's about the business of strip clubs. I do feel Alex (and others) should be reviewing this game and offering their opinions afterwards like normal. Re: Alex's comments about not wanting to sit down and play a game about strippers, how is that different from not wanting to sit down and play a terrible game? Or a WWII game? Or a dry, dusty euro?

[@BoardGameQC]

​@@BoardGameCo You might find interesting that the country with the most backers for nightshift is the US. Are you certain that your sensitivity is an "American sensitivity"? Where'd you get the data to back that up? The KS data tells a different story

[@MarkBlasco]

There are plenty of games where women are objectified which people don't complain much about, but make a game where a woman is in control of their body, and it's apparently crossed a line.

[@BoardGameCo]

I do think people are more and more becoming sensitive to games where women are objectified.

[@MarkBlasco]

@@BoardGameCo definitely they are, which is great, but for the most part that doesn't stop people from reviewing and discussing those games. I respect everyone's decision to review what they want, but there is a distinct double standard in the United States about what is and isn't acceptable. I appreciate the honest and open discussion about why people would or wouldn't choose to cover this game, it just saddens me when we celebrate things like Game of Thrones on TV, and say that this game goes too far.

[@donberdeen6518]

@@MarkBlasco Lol... game of thrones is thematically celebrated? It should be noted that the only way you can access GoT is by paying for the HBO service. Moreover, I didn't start watching the show for its sexual content. The crazines of me is how a game is considered cringy when we have a whole subgenre of websites known as OnlyFans which, largely, women find empowering. As I said above, I don't believe that @BoardgameCo needs to celebrate the game or its theme, whether Alex reviewed it or not. The part that confuses me why justification was necessary of a game that wasn't being reviewed more than any other game that is not reviewed. Just, why? BoardgameCo doesn't owe anyone an explanation.

[@zerocool3742]

@@donberdeen6518 MarkBlasco, Boardgameco, Yourself, Me, we all have a responsibility not only to ask these questions, but to stand up for people we think are marginalized. If someone, some group is disadvantaged, we should all collectively stand up for that group. That means both for people games are built around, built for AND the people reviewing them. The conversation is the point. :)

[@ulrichhergl4630]

@@zerocool3742 The game makes those women seen. I got the feeling there are people that don't want those women to be seen. Seen as humans. As people in charge rather than objects.

[@SPQRKlio]

I’ve been keenly watching the conversation around this, as I’m working with a group developing a game that’s not on the same theme but in the same general area. TBH I’m a little jealous of the attention it’s getting but also grateful to its designer for wading in and both taking the brunt of the shocked-shocked-I-tell-you reactions and blazing a path. I’m obviously on the side of the argument where I’d rather see more games from this perspective, about things grownups can discuss, than more games about lopping heads off monsters in sexy chainmail thongs. (The adventurers in the thongs, not the monsters. Maybe also the monsters.) That said, I’d never get into a huff about a reviewer choosing to or not wanting to review something-you aren’t my employee-though I appreciate it when channels like No Pun Included confront uncomfortable topics head on and thoughtfully, and that makes me loyal to the channel. And if I don’t like a channel’s philosophy, I don’t watch it, it’s simple.

[@gasa5251]

Its the same bias that is directed at real life adult entertainers .... why do we do that? The people that work in the industry are just as human as anyone else.

[@carloshuamandelosheros9835]

i backed it, and i mostly play coop game/zombicide etc... Its not a children game of course and really don't care about violence, war etc.. etc... but i laughed with my gf trying to know who would be best at this game. (btw am canadian too)

[@TheWildernessEnthusiast]

Excluding this video, you need to add photos to games you are discussing. I’m always doing research to know what you’re talking about

[@stacie_everdell]

The reward is the amount of videos that Boardgame Co offers on a regular daily basis. It would otherwise be a trade off. Extra time editing a video would mean less content, i.e. less videos per week.

[@tbatrics]

I'm excited for this game. I'm disappointed it's not being covered more, but it's not surprising to me. Truthfully I don't care as a backer because I will hopefully enjoy it regardless of other people's feelings. We can all enjoy our own stuff.

[@TheDragonsTomb]

I did a video on Nightshift and it got me 250,000+ views and tons of new subscribers!

[@BoardGameCo]

Obviously a mistake for me not to cover it.

[@TheDragonsTomb]

@@BoardGameCo Yes! Views and subscribers are all that matter in life!!

[@razgriz8675]

From what I’ve heard and people I’ve talked to, most people have no problem with it as a game whether or not they would be interested in playing it, like you said. I think the reason why most creators declined to cover it was simple because it would have a good chance to hurt their channel because of the algorithm & the internet. Unfortunately. Even though most people in real life are probably fine with it.

[@LEF3133]

I did ask if you were going to cover this game well before it was released and you said it wasn’t your cup of tea. I was disappointed but seeing how well the campaign is going it wasn’t needed. Being a fan of her humorous books and art I was always going to buy it. Would be interesting to see a poll on people backing if they are existing or new to the scene. Being someone who visits clubs and works as a tradie nothing in this game will be a surprise and looking forward to having a laugh playing.

[@cyberdan42]

If this is the line in the sand then we really need to move the line. Agreed. And in your own way you are giving this game exposure.

[@ash-sx3kq]

Good on you for reflecting on this and taking time to analyze your feelings and ideas on a complicated topic. As a European living in Canada, I am 1. stoked to find out that you're Canadian 2. amazed at the number of people in the comments acting like being uncomfortable with sex work is solely an American thing.

[@chrisroberts8572]

I'm glad to hear that this game was made by an exotic dancer

[@Tharukan]

Really like your nuanced view on this topic. Still think it's wild that you pretty much consciously decide not to act on this nuanced view and have a differing opinion. Still, cool video!

[@betterthanflapjacks]

There are other board games and video games that cover themes that are much more taboo and dark. I couldn’t care less if someone covered it. It’s a game. If the reviewer chooses to or not is up to them. If it’s not a game for you, like many games that don’t hook us, move on if you’re disinterested or sensitive to it. Also, just because someone reviews or plays a game that’s controversial or covers taboo subjects should NOT lead to accusations or criticism. Critical thinking is important, we should live in a world where people can interpret situations in context rather than reacting with rigid, black-and-white thinking that may lead to unnecessary upset or misunderstanding.

[@rakul1976]

Thank you for mentioning the game, i really like the idea. and i would like to point out that we live in times, where children have access to the internet and grow up with "adult" videos. i would argue that this game has a more respectful approach to the nightlife scene, as it invites the players to see the perspective of the dancers. talking about creative new conceps is what kickstarter is all about, isnt it?

[@BoardGameCo]

I don't disagree. There was a time when I wouldn't have even entertained the conversation. It's still not for me, but I'm more open to the idea than I used to be.

[@MinistryProductions]

I would have liked you to have covered Nightshift objectively in a preview and your crowd funding videos.

[@SoLove]

I think most KZbinrs determined that there would be a backlash and as a result, less views and unsubscribes. And at the end of the day, it's about the bottom line.

[@deusex3124]

What I find fascinating is Nightshift has done very well, nearly 5,000 backers now, and that's with hardly any coverage or support from reviewers. Whatever Exotic Cancer has done clearly worked. Nightshift is exactly what Kickstarter should be about, someone who had an idea, worked on it and then wanted to crowdfund it. We've become accustomed to big publishers using Kickstarter as a production line for games, it's refreshing to see something that's not that at all. I've also seen plenty of comments from women who are backing this, former dancers, current dancers, and more. I think Nightshift is appealing to a completely different audience to the usual board game space and it's interesting to see.

[@shanegordon9406]

I appreciate this video. I am one of the all in backers for Nightshift. I agree that it is a hard topic. After talking to Exotic Cancer on the Discord for the game I was impressed that she was not making a NSFW version or add on like a slew of Kickstarter campaigns I have witnessed. Her point of the game is to empower sex workers instead of demeaning them. As a person who have seen friends turn to that type of work whether for or horrible economic situation in parts of Canada or they just enjoy the type of work or they have fallen to the drug epidemic I am all for empowering them. It is not a profession to look down on which is a typical North American attitude. I’m glad this game is starting conversations. We are too desensitized to violence here that a bare breast causes more of a stir on tv than a school shooting these days. Sad comment on society I believe.

[@WojoO]

Actually as a part of Ontable - Board news (50k subs on YT) i covered it few times in Polish :)

[@briant2438]

People can like what they like and dislike what they don't. That doesn't mean everyone else has to hold the same values. That's ok. It's not for you. With this game and others, it becomes a morality question, and everyone looks at things differently

[@BoardGameCo]

Agreed completely.

[@Solcoyote]

You nailed it. I can’t ever see myself wanting to play a theme like this, but if others enjoy it then awesome.

[@cyberdan42]

I guess at least you have the integrity to explain why you are not covering the game. But, the sheer hypocrisy. A society and culture that openly embraces guns and often gratuitous violence on screen. But then reflexively censors swearing and anything 'inappropriately' sexual in order to 'protect the children'. To be honest, I'm increasingly tempted to support the game and its creator just to make a stand against this type of utter bullshit (not censored very much on purpose).

[@quashmonkey]

I have no issue with strip clubs, or games themed about it, having said that im not backing the game. In NZ prostitution is legal so that's a whole different level to teasing that stripclubs provide.

[@whiskeygamesnerdstuff789]

Appreciate the video and you discussing the topic.

[@Spidoink]

I find the board game Hobby is filled with the type of people that love to just hear their own voice. Too many people want to be a victim or feel like complaining. It's quite pathetic. Choosing not to cover a product because the topic is sex, is downright cringy. I've seen every theme imaginable from the grotesque, to the Absurd when it comes to board games. And people draw the line when it comes to sexuality ? straight up embarrassing. Card against Humanity has become one of the most popular party games in the world. And it thrives off the offensive. 🤷🏽‍♂️ But stripping =bad.. ? I should add that you handle this video well. And you're right to bring up the fact that no one is covering a game with 400,000 in crowdfunding

[@ScytheNoire]

Especially over at BGG. It's extremely toxic over there, especially the moderators.

[@MattD007]

You're a clown. People can cover what they want. It's the same as people liking what they want. Bragging that people are paying to get the minis or making a political statement by backing doesn't mean the game "deserves" to be covered or reviewed by anyone. Lots of bad games get a lot of money. Crowdfunding is dumb like that.

[@andrewwilson895]

The game doesn't feature explicit nudity. I'm more comfortable with this theme than with curse words. I'm not personally interested in Nightshift the same way I'm not interested in a lot of different themes, but I do think it's been unfairly treated by board game media in terms of coverage. I wish people would show less grotesque horror, cut the curse words, and be open to respectful games like Nightshift. This game seems way more appropriate than exploitative sexualization that shows up in various fantasy games (especially).

[@tosteson1]

A difficult conversation, well covered.

[@BoardGameCo]

Thank you

[@IanTanLK]

The moment I saw this game, I want it immediately - but with ancient Japan setting. Geishas double as assassin and informer etc.

[@toddmcdonough4670]

I think questioning one’s consistency across themes is important. I also find the glorification of an “inappropriate” theme, however one may define that, is also a major sticking point. For example, violence in a game may be represented as violence against an evil force, violence as a necessary evil, the sinister enjoyment of partaking in violent acts, etc. Further, a player may even have to take on the role of a violent character however is it teaching a lesson on violence directly or indirectly such as witnessing the damage it causes, simulating its negative effects, or is it simply glorifying it as a good and encouraging its use in real life? In other words, the specific way the theme is represented is a major consideration for at least myself and may explain why some of my board game choices may on the surface appear somewhat inconsistent.

[@pogdog69]

This game doesnt bother me at all.

[@jacobcrumpacker1]

Not all things that are morally questionable are equitable.

[@BoardGameCo]

I agree with that. But that doesn't provide a ranking

[@jacobcrumpacker1]

@@BoardGameCo you provide your ranking they're your values.

[@smurfdingo]

alex, really appreciate you addressing this and your willingness to grapple with these issues and include us in the conversation. For me, the idea of harming guides much of my morality, so games the celebrate violence, exploitation, and the suffering of others are morally reprehensible. I still play them myself because I'm subject to the same bias that most of us are (though i would never play that Prison Architect game you referenced). I wasn't clear from your video if your issue with night shift was that the feel like the theme is exploitative, that it deals with an industry in which women (typically) undress for the gratification of men, or something else. Would you mind clarifying? I suppose i find it troubling that board game reviewers would choose to effectively boycott a game about strippers while not batting an eye about games that glorify violence and sadism. I think it stems from our cultural bias that often celebrates 'heroic' violence in superhero and war movies while viewing women expressing their sexuality as somehow beyond the pale. If it's about women being exploited by the male gaze, I suppose i would like to here from folks who work professionally as strippers to hear if the majority of them feel exploited themselves. Either way, i appreciate you bringing the subject matter up rather than simply avoiding it altogether. Best!

[@richarddurrer9617]

This is no longer a game for me. Back when I was younger I worked for a while as a DJ in strip club. I would have picked up the game back then as I would have had a group that was interested in playing it. Just like I no longer have the old game Passout as I no longer have a group of Young Adults that found that drinking game amusing. Am I offended by the game looking at the Kickstarter? No, if anything I find it being handled properly and accurately by a person that used to be in that line of work. Good on them. I'd play it, if at a con. But it wouldn't get tabled by my gaming group, so not buying it.

[@clanechelon]

I think everyone is allowed to their opinion and everyone's tolerance is different. What I find mind blowing though is the need to gate keep. Why can't any one enjoy something that you find offensive? Why should it be taboo and hidden? Something everyone should learn at some point is that the world doesn't resolve around you. You are allowed to feel the way you feel, can you stop imposing your view on others. This applies to everything even beyond board game and hobby.

[@Zomerdromen]

American hypocrisy all around this game. Here in Europe it's just another board game. The theme comes up because you don't see it a lot which makes it interesting, but it's really no more taboo than any game with for example violence out there. No theme can please everyone so really more variety should be seen as a positive thing in the hobby. A shame to see it 'boycotted' like this.

[@bamboozledgreatcrowd8982]

Personally I think anyone that gets paid or compensated covering a game is a shill. You cannot give a fair opinion when a game is on a platform because you have a stake in the company. The people that said no do not have the maturity level to deal with what people call "adult" subject. I backed the game because it looked fun and entertaining it also puts you in a world most of us have not experienced. This game did not create anything new or invent new mechanics. It's what some of us call a beer and pretzels game.

[@BoardGameCo]

Being paid to cover a game in no way makes somebody a shill, unless you're referring to being paid and giving an opinion on the game, in which case that leaves room for that conversation.

[@marvinp90]

I do think it is ok to not cover a game because it is not something you are comfortable with but having virtually the entire creator sphere refuse to cover stifles the whole industry. I do think there isn't an issue with waiting until the end of a video to mention a game like this. I think it is much better than just ignoring it. Especially since as someone in North America I would say it is not as culturally homogenous on adult themes like Nightshift like you think. While the group that gets upset with the barest mention is often the loudest they are not the majority. I have been STARVED for more boardgames that treat sex as a more real normal thing as opposed to something shameful for years. So yeah I am a long time boardgamer this is something I am interested in. Maybe if a project you think has promise but not something you would want to cover comes out maybe you could just mention it. You don't have to go into it or show it but letting those who aren't opposed to know it exists and to look it up. I do have one question about the comment about being uncomfortable with people playing it. Were you saying you wouldn't want to play with someone who has this game at all or just if they had it on the table at that time? Because while I have no problems with the game I would be careful on who I asked to play it with. Also for anyone interested in the game I know Becca Scott will be having a playthrough released before the campaign ends so having one big creator cover it should help.

[@fahlmancomputing8628]

From a wider perspective, everybody SHOULD have and follow their own moral code. It isn't inconsistent to follow your own moral code, but when you're asking yourself if our society has a moral line in the sand that is too far to cross, that is subjecting yourself to some arbitrary collective moral code. Just follow your own code. Nightshift has every right to exist, but that doesn't mean that reviewers ought to feel compelled to cover it if they don't feel like it. As a reviewer, if you WANT to cover it, but don't cover it because you are fearful of backlash, then that is a moral wuandey that you need to navigate for yourself, based on your own moral values.

[@doggosplosion]

You aren't listening to The Secret Cabal then, if you are not hearing about this.

[@Uthe007]

I think the problem is when there's a split between those who agree and those who disagree with a certain theme. Everyone knows that killing is bad. No one is making a problem out a serial killer game because everyone knows it's wrong. It's the same thing with a battlefield type of game. The problem with this game (night) is because half the population thinks it's bad while the other side thinks it's okay. That's why it's conflictual. It's a social/political issue. No one is gonna dispute the fact that a serial killer game is bad. Does that make sense?

[@garyduddell3224]

If something isn't for you as a gamer ignore it and move on, very easily done. Not everything needs to be drama or content.

[@BoardGameCo]

I do think some things make for interesting conversations

[@garyduddell3224]

@@BoardGameCo Sorry I should have stipulated neither of my statements concerned you or this video/topic, having conversations is how we expand are knowledge and learn different points of view. They were aimed at gamers/backers in general. We know sex sells, look at Films/TV/Books/Adverts or anything in life, as others have said I think living in a religious country you probably see more kick back over there to this sort of thing.

[@ralder1]

While I would have liked it the best if you had just covered Nightshift, I do very much appreciate you at least talking about the game and subject this way. To each their own, and I understand and respect your decision, even if I don't agree with it. But at least you're open and honest about it! So big thumbs up! Oh and an edit to answer your question about who the backers are. I'm backing it, just a normal hobby board gamer, because I'm intrigued by the theme and mostly because I really like the fact it's made by someone from the industry in stead of some guys making a game about exotic dancers. That makes all the difference to me. If it was just a game about objectifying woman I would stay far far away, but this feels reapectful, well thought out and I think its cool to see something like this represented in board gaming! Oh, and I'm european, that might explain it as well :p

[@wendyisgrowinginwisdom6350]

Integrity is standing by your values/ethics irrespective of opinion. I don't see why anyone reviewing games should compromise their personal values in the name of being their "work/income source". I also don't see why anyone should play a game that has an objectionable non-ethical theme just because the "mechanics" of the game is acceptable and enjoyable. I would rather go without, or wait, rather than play something that compromises my value set. Find a way to fill your wishes that are consistent with your value set. Settling for the best of a bad bunch, or "the devil you know" is only embarking on an all too easy downward spiral. Expect better and create a demand for better values in entertainment. Or even better, be the person that brings better solutions to the table.

[@BoardGameCo]

If my value system included not playing it I would agree but it doesn't. To me it's more of a personal preference not to play which is different than a value system not to play.

[@tharealkovo]

The takeaway is that the audience knows what they like, and reviewers shouldnt pick and choose what they should or should not like. Reviewers should review all games (to the limit of their capacity, of course) and let the audience decide if they want to back it or not. Most people don't care about the themes of games to the extent that they would complain and throw a riot. The loud minority do that, and they get a disproportionate amount of attention.

[@BoardGameCo]

I do believe reviewers should only cover games they believe themselves to be the target audience for.

[@tharealkovo]

@@BoardGameCo Its like saying movie reviewers should only review movies they are the target audience for. Same goes for any industry that produces consumer goods. But leaving that logic aside...of course no one can force a reviewer to review anything. Its up to the reviewer to make the call. Im a big fan of yours, dont take my tone to make you think otherwise. I just think this game was shot down by the collective BG reviewer community unfairly, probably due to underlying political alignment expectations, and the general audience clearly wants it.

[@JoeHuddleston]

You kinda lost me at the "that's the table I want to sit down at" bit. What do you think the "kind" of people are who are going to be playing this? They're going to be icky? No normal people would play this game? I would hazard to guess that you could encounter icky people playing just about any game. I feel like we've drawn the line in the wrong place. Why is murder good but boobies are bad? Seems like it should be the other way around.

[@BoardGameCo]

We might just have a difference of opinion then, if I saw this on the table I just don't think it's a table I would want to sit down at.

[@ScytheNoire]

I think this is a culture issue. Sexuality is frowned upon in certain cultures, whereas some other cultures are more open. America, for example, is okay with violence, murder, guns, war, but anything sexual is "won't somebody thing of the children" while those same children are dying from mass shootings. Meanwhile, over in many European countries, they have kid's cartoons where the characters are genital or has a lasso penis or UK Sun having topless women on Page 3 for decades. I think it should be covered, and those who don't like it have the choice not to watch the content. There are plenty of game videos, such as every dungeon crawlers, that I just pass on and don't watch. Shame on reviewers who didn't cover this game simply because it might offend a few snowflakes.

[@Tchousssman54]

Well thanks for the headlight on this game anyway. As a french I find no problem at all with it, especially because the maker is a stripper herself. Furthermore, in France we had a group of antifascist who made a game about antifacism and had many problems too for selling it. So I guess games can be a creative form of activism, and thats great.

[@BoardGameCo]

Yep, this to me was a good way to talk about it while also not fully covering it

[@Tchousssman54]

@@BoardGameCo Exactly !

[@th1ngo]

I think it's reasonable to choose to not play particular games or categories of game; based on personal preference. That implies there are likely games that a person would thus not be able to review: though they may still have an opinion. I find it interesting, that of a quoted 30 requests to review _Nightshift_ only 2 did so. I find it interesting that in the USofA, schoolchildren are drilled in hiding from murderers invading schools, while those same murderous weapons are readily available to all & sundry. I find it interesting that in the USofA, media include graphic scenes of 'blood & gore', yet gentle 'bedroom' scenes are blurred out. Are there parallels?

[@joshuarogers7405]

People will and should have their own preferences when it comes to game themes and mechanics. I just don’t like the idea of people vilifying the people who play games where you might not play it for those kinds of reasons. I don’t think nightshirt is a game i would play because of the theme, but I’m not going to tell others not to play it or attack people who choose to. If I play a game with colonial theme I’m fine if someone else doesn’t like the idea of it, but please don’t attack me for choosing to play it. I don’t like the idea of looking at something and labeling it “problematic” either. Preferences are fine but if something doesn’t align with your own preferences, morals, beliefs or ideas that is not enough in my opinion to label something as default bad. I’d be fine if you decided to review nightshift on the channel. I also understand that if it doesn’t align with your personal values, feel free not to. I don’t like the idea of you putting yourself in situations you’re opposed to just for the sake of the audience. Small disclaimers are good, but I don’t like belabored disclaimer when I’m reminded every few sentences that something might not be for everyone.

[@bunkhead]

I think the point you touched on an important aspect of the conversation. The level of abstraction. We may be ok with board games about violence and colonization because the theme is abstracted. If the game had graphic art of death or had slavery it would not get very far. A game like Nightshift might be more welcomed if it didn't have sexy art and the act was more abstracted. For me, I don't really get bothered by "colonization" in board games because most games aren't doing colonization perse. If the game had shackles and slave boats, I would be very reluctant to try the game out. The last thing I thought on the topic was for people to not be afraid to look at your biases and see if they should change, but be ok if you feel like they should not. I have been told that I should be ok will some music that has bad language and values but I just can't.

[@HarleyFirestorm]

I don't see the problem, the lady who made this game, made it out of her own experiences in life, it doesn't interest me, but it deserves to have the same platform as any other board game. Its the same as gay sauna board game, doesn't interest me, but it might interest someone else, why shouldn't it be covered? because some people may have a problem with it. Its only ever going to interest people who have an interest or curiosity in that subject, same as games about serial killers, are going to largely interest people who are interested in True Crime or curious or that particular story. I don't see what the problem is about themes of nudity, we all have a birthday suit. Sure its age regulated and should be but to an adult audience its fair game. Like a lot of people have said on here, this seems like a very American conversation, and to me it doesn't make any sense. At the end of the day if you covered it and someone doesn't want to watch a review then they have the ' freedom ' not to view it.

[@GKEK]

I appreciate your consideration and also respect your decision to draw lines for your channel. Your family friendly reviews are what initially attracted me to your channel, and I actually watched your channel less once Meg came on board as she swears most often (despite the fact that I like her insights/opinions on games). You can't please everyone, and I still watch all your solo presented content. I'm glad this game exists for people who may be interested in it, and I think, like many things, standards and comfort levels will start change towards acceptance as we see more of it. Society is slowly homogenizing with the increasing and easing of sharing of information, hopefully and seemingly towards mostly positive evolutions.

[@darryl558]

I feel like a lot of the detractors of Nightshift just dismiss it immediately as "smut" without really giving it further thought - which is totally okay, but then attempting to negatively affect the game over that opinion becomes un-okay (i.e., the review bombing, negative posts / comments). It's not "smut" for "smut's" sake, the designer has a larger message with the design, using the game to encourage empathy and fight the stigma against exotic dancers and sex workers in general - which again, that's okay if that's not your thing, but its not just "smut" for shock value... there's a purpose. Additionally, I do wonder about the point about the rather large success of the campaign despite all the reviewers that are declining to review it - what's that say about relevancy of reviewers in general?

[@aaronleon8098]

I find that people like to get upset about things for the sake of being upset about something, as if it gives them purpose. I don't care about the game's theme. It doesn't affect me in any way. People need to focus on bigger issues.

[@hubris1960]

I’ve generally subscribed to the motto that if I can see the insides of a person in violent media or medical work, why would I be offended by the surface level of the body. I don’t mind Night Shift existing but it’s not a theme I am interested in playing either.

[@toddcontino7271]

I backed it just to support them. Maybe it’ll help her stay out of that lifestyle herself. Could be fun to play as a party game if it’s super light. There’s always house rules to make it fun or change if we want to. I’m sick of this weak era we’re in double standards galore.

[@jeffreydunford9251]

The theme doesn’t interest me personally, but it isn’t nearly as offensive as Cards Against Humanity or Secret Hitler, which each somehow achieved mass-market appeal.