Why is the 9/8 time signature so confusing?

[@fleeb]

I think I saw something in Early Music Sources that suggests, maybe, the classical 9/8 view might take strong influence from very early music, and mensural notation. What we think of as 9/8, in mensural notation, becomes perfectum maior (circle with a dot in the middle). Imperfectum maior would be 6/8 to us (semi-circle with a dot in the middle). I wonder how much of this influence carried forward to how we teach music today, rather than a more modern thinking espoused here, where we may subdivide in whatever way we choose to generate the rhythms we seek in our compositions, and not get too hung up on the time signature used to convey this meaning.

[@franciscoojeda11]

Yes thats correct

[@stuffandsundry]

Not gonna lie, at first I read that as menstrual notation and thought "dang, early musicians really made music according to a woman's cycle, TIL."

[@fleeb]

@@stuffandsundry Times were *really* different then. - grin -

[@iau]

As Adam Neely put in his video, most people are taught music as the specific style of 18th century Europe, and not as anything relevant for the modern composer. Music education truly needs change right now

[@MaggaraMarine]

Not only that, but in classical music, this kind of "mixed meters" (2+2+2+3 or whatever) simply weren't a thing until the 20th century. Before 1900, all 9/8 classical pieces were 3+3+3, which is why that's how it's traditionally taught. So, in classical circles, 9/8 pretty much always means 3+3+3. The problem arises when classically trained musicians try to explain the concept to people whose main interests aren't in classical music. These classical musicians aren't familiar with pop/folk songs that would use 9/8 in another way, so of course their first explanation is going to be "compound triple meter". That's the 9/8 they are familiar with. Similarly, the "4/4 with an added 8th note" explanation is useless to most classical musicians, because most of the time, that's not how 9/8 is felt in classical, and it's actually going to be counterproductive to try to feel a classical 9/8 piece in that way. A good musician (no matter whether they have a classical, jazz or pop background) will understand that in different styles people do different things, and they won't say something like "9/8 is always compound triple", even if that's the first example of the time signature they are going to give. The problem is, a lot of people who talk about this stuff online aren't really properly educated (or don't have enough understanding of the different context in which you are going to see this time signature). They have heard somewhere that 9/8 is 3+3+3, so they take that as an "objective rule" and don't even consider any other possibilities. A theory book usually has a genre focus, so if a theory book that focuses on classical says that 9/8 is 3+3+3, then that's really not incorrect - this does apply to basically all classical music. You just shouldn't generalize this "rule" to all music - you need to understand the context of the book. Similarly, if a counterpoint book says "avoid parallel fifths", you should understand the context in which that is said, and not try to apply that rule to all music.

[@EminTuralic]

I'm from the Balkans and 9/8 is so engraved into our culture that people with no musical background, almost completely tonedeaf, can follow the rhythm without any problem, dance, and sing along to them. Always found it odd (no pun intended).

[@yessir6427]

I second this from Turkey. 9/8 sounds like wedding to me.

[@nick3718]

thats really interesting. i heard that indian music uses 7/8 a lot which is hard to imagine.

[@pankats1222]

I third this from Greece. 9/8, 7/8, 5/8 is common in Balkan music

[@nautaki]

@@pankats1222 We called it Zeimbekiko if anyone wants to listen to what it sounds like

[@stefandoerr3859]

I love the balkan 11/8ths as well! Like in Lidijina Igra. So many fun rythms!

[@paris1970100]

i have a funny story abt 9/8. first of all im Greek and most of our traditional music is in odd time, usually 7/8 or 9/8. So Im in this band and our instructor had a gig where they played such songs and they had trouble figure out a part in 9/8 i think. thay had been talking abt it and of the guys goes: dont worry if you fall out of the beat just follow the audience's clapping. he did indeed fall out of the beat but because the audience was clapping the 3+2+2+2 pattern (without them even knowing) he jumped right back in. idk if it is just me that finds it fascinating😂

[@TheSquareOnes]

That is really funny, normally you'd expect the audience's clapping mistakes to muck things up and not the other way around. Hope that guy put in some practice after that though, pretty embarrassing to get called to play simple odd meter patterns like that and be so lost that the crowd has to bail you out haha. At least it sounds like everyone was having fun though, in the end that's all that matters right?

[@macescoolchannel]

Are you still Greek?

[@ethyn]

@@macescoolchannel what kinda question is that? If your born Greek you stay Greek.

[@macescoolchannel]

@@ethyn I am aware, it's just that I feel sorry for him for having been born under such conditions.

[@CrackThoseClaws]

Every culture usually has a link to a very unique pre-modern music that the kids are just born into it. I assume people around the Mediterranean can clap in 9/8 and they don't even know. Indians in their own, black Americans have gospel and blues etc

[@viridianloom]

You should do a video sometime on how to make 4/4 NOT sound like 4/4. Similar to how you explained there's a lot of ways you can write in 9/8 instead of three groups of three, there's also ways to "prog up" 4/4 :)

[@colejohnson66]

16th note syncopation with eighth note triplets (12th notes) layered on top

[@vaughanmacegan4012]

You could always use Poly-rhythms with one of the rhythms in 4/4, that should certainly prog it up.

[@ivanbrasla]

Tool - The Pot. I couldn't believe it was 4/4 at first

[@colleenchapman3288]

That's kind of what this video is, although it's just one example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZnPfaeaZp6msNk

[@xcodychaosx]

simply using odd subdivisions triplets quintuplets septuplets can give that feel switch them in and out and it can sound crazy and all over by just learning to count different subdivisions

[@hamzasalman6345]

I clicked in 9/8th of a second

[@aaronclift]

Dave Brubeck introduced the 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 9/8 rhythm to Western audiences with “Blue Rondo a la Turk” (which was in turn inspired by Turkish music).

[@derrickmelton5844]

I literally can't think of the song in my head as 9/8 which is what is quite funny to me...I always truncate it down to 7/8 because the frenzied rhythm makes me feel like the song wants to hurry along...but 9/8 is slightly delayed from 4/4 so it throws me off and I remember it as a 2 + 2 + 3 pattern

[@deandreturner8034]

"Clair de Lune" is 9/8 and doesn't have a mediterranean feel.

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

It's funny cause that song specifically is always played with so much rubato that's very hard for me to hear any metric structure without looking at the sheet music

[@phillipwalk3r]

3 + 3 + 3 like wtf why is no one thinking that

[@ataberkyavas7476]

In Turkey it's very common, especially in areas closer to Balkans. Gypsys love this for some reason, evey gypsy folk song is in 9/8 in Turkey.

[@MaggaraMarine]

I feel like a lot of people here in comments who say "I'm feeling 9/8 as 3+3+3" or "I'm feeling 9/8 as 2+2+2+3" are missing the point. 9/8 shouldn't be felt in one way. The way you should feel 9/8 depends on the context. In older classical music, it's basically always 3+3+3 (and this is where the idea of 9/8 being a compound triple meter comes from - old theory books describe it in this way, because they focus on classical music, where this is the way 9/8 is felt, at least the vast majority of time). In more modern music, there are more options (either 3 groups of 3, or some combination of 3 groups of 2 and one group of 3).

[@adamgillespie3393]

In ireland 9/8 is a slipjig. Just 3 groups of 3. That's the way I automatically feel it

[@atakankoprulu5007]

Video: Why is the 9/8 time signature so confusing? Random Turkish guy: Hold my Ayran

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

As always, check the description for a few important points and corrections :)

[@IndependenceGuitar]

Time signatures like this are the reason I encourage every musician to learn basic konnakol.

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

TBH I would count nearly all of these as konnakol but I didn't want to open up that can of worms yet. One day I'll do a video on konnakol syllables and how/why I use them

[@samuelconnolly347]

I love studying konnakol. It's tough, but so rewarding when your brain finally clicks! I agree - it's such a powerful exercise for any musician.

[@IndependenceGuitar]

@@samuelconnolly347 😆 yeah, i think the worst part was when it actually clicked, because I had been drilling it so much at that point, that everything I heard (people talking, random noise, literally everything) became a konnakol phrase to my brain, and it actually started to interfere with day to day life. It was hilarious, and really bad at the same time.

[@Necrocidal]

Well I went down a nice wikipedia rabbit hole after googling "konnakol"

[@IndependenceGuitar]

@@Necrocidal oh noooooo... I’m sorry man, that’s one hairy rabbit hole to get caught up in. Not sure if you know who Matthias Ecklund is, but he has a pretty good basic explanation. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZ28aKWmbt2gZqs

[@stefandoerr3859]

I just wanted to point out that 9/8 is very common in Greek, Turkish and probably more eastern music traditions (and thus not especially confusing to our ears). For example the fast karsilama rythm which is counted as 12 12 12 123. And of course the zeibekiko dance which is a very slow 9, nearly feels like a 4+5.

[@AlexandrosT1]

Second that. It's interesting to see the difference in how people from various backgrounds and cultures perceive the same thing with different ways.

[@Arkoudeides.]

Exactly.In my coui Greece is a very common rythm.Even small kids know this kind of rythm.

[@selladore4911]

i came here because i learned a song i like, Τα παιδιά της γειτονιάς σου, uses it

[@denselman]

Genesis- “Supper’s Ready”, Apocalypse in 9/8. Tony Banks still plays in 4/4. Crazy.

[@Aquatarkus96]

And it's so dramatic and big sounding too, who knew you could make a progression that's essentially just major chords sound so ominous and menacing! Really sells the end of the world vibe going on there

[@jmcvcoelho]

Guitars go 4+3+2 and drums go 3+3+3 in some parts.

[@MmadA-lg6ix]

Genesis seemed to love a bit of 9/8 in their music. Riding the Scree and ...In That Quiet Earth use it too.

[@jackson9135]

From what I know Tony also played a few bars of 7/8 over the 9/8 backing track.

[@InventorZahran]

I often use 9/8 when transcribing waltzes with a swing rhythm, similar to how 6/8 can be used to transcribe a 4/4 swing.

[@ariesmp]

As soon as that 9th note hit, it was like Google earth zooming in on the Balkans.

[@kaktusovo_mlijeko]

10:16 look at dat face! just look!

[@martinskok6180]

I felt that

[@LTDLimiTeD1995]

You'd be surprised how often 9/8 comes up in hymns, usually the form of 3 sets of triplets.

[@lt3880]

thats the easiest way to digest it for me. its like how 12/8 is just 4/4 with triplets

[@jhbonarius]

4:50 I immediatly see why the grouping is important. As the hihat is not grouped differently for the second bar, I get confused with the bass timing

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

Yeah I mention it in the description, it's an unfortunate error that I didn't catch till far too late!

[@gwbuilder5779]

Thanks Jake! This is the first time I've ever heard someone describe 9/8 in a useful and practical manner. Harpsichord music was commonly written in 9/8, but never really explained very well. The funny thing is, when counted as triplets it's a standard waltz beat or rhythm. Not very modern, but quite practical.

[@54faustas]

Time to get Twista on the next DT album

[@blackcitadel37]

Maybe that's the only way to finally have LaBrie fired.

[@TrueFileJunkie]

"one-two-three-four-one-two-three-four-five-ONE" (grooves goes on) -> that sounded really cool and spooky, you should make a track using exclusively a drum track and your voice counting out beats as monotonously as possible while still stopping some times. Will have some nice creepy "numbers station" vibe.

[@guitaristssuck8979]

Like Car Bomb?

[@williambendix9957]

The song "jambi" by tool is actually a really good example of the difference grouping can make. The drums on the intro play the pseudo 4/4 you mention (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 trip let) and then in the verse the kick drum goes to more the compound feel (1 trip let 2 trip let 3 trip let)

[@zekecardillo5008]

i came to this video bc i’m trying to learn jambi on bass but the time signature was so odd to learn

[@juanibiapina]

Both approaches are useful to me Jake. Thanks for actually bringing them both.

[@Outside998]

I wrote a song that uses 9/4. Odd time signatures groove so much.

[@guitar864]

9/4 is an unusual signature to use. Sure it isn't 4/4 then 5/4?

[@Outside998]

@@guitar864 Yes

[@rome8180]

@@guitar864 how much does that distinction even matter? It just depends on how you mentally subdivide the phrase.

[@guitar864]

@@rome8180 well, yeah - if you divide the phrase then it isn't 9/4. 9 counts of a 4th note per bar is an obsurdly long bar.

[@JoeontheInside]

Great video. Try saying "SEV" instead of SEVEN when counting fast, it's WAAAAY better when you have to include seven. SEV. I started and never looked back. I could a lot of 7/8 as 1 3 5 Sev, 1 3 5 Sev, and it's so much easier.

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

I do mention this on my vid on odd times :)

[@JoeontheInside]

@@SignalsMusicStudio Oh, cool. I love your videos, you're a great teacher!

[@forcetheedges]

Whoever decided to make seven a two-syllable word was definitely not a musician trying to count measures...

[@Aquatarkus96]

Sev or sen. I learned sen but sev seems useful just the same!

[@monsterfukk7737]

Same with LEV for eleven!

[@_wayneman_]

Me (a prog fan): What's the big deal, aren't most songs written in 9/8 at some point?

[@darthvaderyan]

Isn't tarkus in 9/8 during the interlude sections? That's what I thought of

[@Aquatarkus96]

@@darthvaderyan Yes!

[@Aquatarkus96]

My go to is Supper's Ready by Genesis. 123, 45, 6789

[@OneFatStatue]

@@Aquatarkus96 Took me ages to work out how to count Apocalypse in 9/8, even though it has the time signature in the title! I use 123, 12, 1234

[@Aquatarkus96]

@@OneFatStatue I honestly have counted it both ways lol. Probably started counting your way since its imo a more descriptive depiction of the subdivision.

[@sharkeynoyz]

I am from the Balkans and I found this video boring. Just kidding, great work!

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

The 9/8 time signature to me isn't that confusing. It can be thought of as 3/4 Time Signature with 8th note Triplets on each beat. If you look in movements 6 and 10 of BWV 147 (Barenreiter edition is my favorite because it's based on the Original Manuscript) you'll see what I mean

[@DonGeritch]

so I'm 20 seconds in and got an idea - a piece in 9/8 and Locrian😏

[@larsswig912]

PRØG

[@hyronvalkinson1749]

So Locrian never feels quite truly Locrian to me, just a variant of the "metal scale" (flat 2nd and 5th) that remains in the Aeolian mode.

[@tymime]

I actually found the modern approach more confusing. What's wrong with three groups of three?

[@SwappingIsSaving]

I Hung My Head written by Sting is in 9/8. It has the backbeat on 3 and 8.

[@jacobflores8666]

Honestly, the "traditional method" makes more sense to me. I came here looking for a way to count a 9/8 time signature for a piece that I'm writing (which I realized is naturally 9/8) and the fact that a compound meter breaks the 8th notes up into 3 sections of 3 beats makes so much more sense to me than anything. Also, just thought that I would point out that 16th notes are counted as "1-E-and-a".

[@jeffgoblue]

16th notes would be counted as “1-&-a” in a three-note grouping of 8th note and two 16th notes, which is what he was referring to. He doesn’t like using 1-&-a for a long beat 9/8 beat because to him, that means 8th + two 16th. I agree with you in the sense that I think learning the traditional version first makes more sense. That’s the starting point; then you move to the other variations.

[@quinnmitchel4075]

9/8 is cool and used by Dream Theatre, well they use every time signature lol

[@Theblueshark27]

Altered Beast II by King Gizzard and the Lizard makes use of 9/8, as I'm sure many of their other songs do

[@Chris-mc2dt]

Altered Beast II is best Altered Beast

[@atharvachoudhary6974]

King Gizzard uses 9/8 quite a lot. One of their recent songs 'Interior People' is in 9/4, and another one 'Catching Smoke' goes 3 bars of 4/4 and 1 bar of 9/8

[@mikescofield]

Great explanation of 9/8 (and related) timing. You're right, your explanation is much clearer than the more traditional tutorials I've watched. Thanks!

[@webbc99]

That formal version of 9/8 just feels like a load of triplets. I've never 'felt' 9/8 to be that way, feels so wrong.

[@MaggaraMarine]

That's because you haven't heard music that uses 9/8 in that way. Any classical piece before 1900 that uses 9/8 will use 3+3+3. And that's where the idea of it being compound triple comes from. In modern music, this kind of 9/8 is rarer, and usually 9/8 will mean some kind of a combination of three groups of 2 and one group of 3. Similarly as you shouldn't try to force yourself to feel something like Blue Rondo a la Turk as 3+3+3 (it's quite clearly 2+2+2+3, though the last bar of each phrase is always 3+3+3), you shouldn't try to feel any classical piece with 9/8 time signature as "4/4 with an added 8th note". Both of these explanations make sense in the right context. It depends on what kind of music you are talking about.

[@MaggaraMarine]

@E. O. Sure. I guess when people listen to that music, they don't think 9/8, they simply think "3/4 with triplets". But that's what 9/8 is a lot of the time. If the whole piece uses three beats that are always subdivided into 3 and never into 2, then it makes sense to notate it as 9/8. If one can accept notating a piece like Isn't She Lovely in 12/8 (3+3+3+3), then I don't understand what would really make 9/8 as 3+3+3 feel so difficult. It is important to make people aware that 9/8 can be other things than just 3/4 with triplets. There are also people saying that 9/8 is always 3+3+3, which is not the case. I don't think the point of the video was to say that 3+3+3 is wrong. It was to say that thinking that 9/8 is always 3+3+3 can be confusing, because in modern music, you hear a lot of pieces where 9/8 is subdivided in some other way, where feeling it as 3+3+3 would be counterintuitive. But this goes both ways. If the music is clearly 3+3+3, then trying to feel it as 2+2+2+3 or whatever is totally counterintuitive. Basically, you should use the subdivision that the music itself suggests.

[@strazone7438]

Great video Jake. 9/8 is definitely one of the strangest and most interesting time signatures out there. Try listening songs by Halid Beslic. He's a folk singer from Bosnia and Herzegovina, quite popular in the Balkans. His songs "Necu necu dijamante" and "Budi budi uvek srecna" are great examples of 9/8 used in folk music, and definitely are worth listening to. Also, "Nocas mi se s tobom spava" by late folk singer from Serbia, Saban Saulic, is also a great 9/8 folk song. Cheers

[@horurmartomasson1041]

I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain. 6/8 and 9/8 are well established as shorthand for 3+3/8 and 3+3+3/8. When you'd rather write in another specific meter like 2+2+2+3/8 or 3+4+2/8 you can just write that (using a narrow font if that helps). When you'd rather write in a meter that changes from measure to measure but always adds up to 9, you could make a note that your 9/8 signifies this, or, better yet, make up a modified symbol (like 9ᵐ/8 or something) instead of just 9/8. If other composers like it they'll adopt it and it'll end up as the standard notation for a freely changing meter that adds up to a count. (9/8 is already standard notation for one specific meter that adds up to 9.)

[@cassianopaim9120]

It's one of those your-timing-was-perfect situations for me. I have literally just finished a demo mix of a song I've made using only 9/8. Haven't watched the video yet, but now I'm looking forward to the insights you will provide. They may prove very useful to me! Thanks, anyway! You are great!

[@alexandermzelski1785]

The easiest way to count 9/8 is to count it Bulgarian way - short step, short step, short step, long step

[@Krieghandt]

I hear it as step, step, step, double hit.

[@jessemontano762]

Was literally just watching a couple of your videos.. is this real?? What is real??... electric signals interpreted by your brain...

[@blazingax05]

apocalypse in 9/8 (Supper's Ready) by Genesis is my first introduction to 9/8!

[@davidpo5517]

Basic 9/8 is three groups of three, I've no idea why you demonstrate it first as four beats plus a half. If that's how people are taught 9/8 no wonder they find it confusing; should start off playing it straight before you syncopate it.

[@petecurry4881]

It's not that confusing, everybody already knows 6/8 it's just like that but with three beats instead of two, a waltz with triplets. the other stuff is polyrhythms

[@ernestMdube]

Your first method is confusing. The 9/8 is simpler than you put it. We have this rhythm in our hymns and it flows naturally if you take it as compound triple time.

[@ARZiehm]

In prescriptive rules (dogma) vs descriptive rules, descriptive always wins. In an art form as subjective as music, it's hard to understand why anyone would place any hard limits or rules on what you can do - The only limit is your imagination to create things!

[@emilzd]

The western brain has become limited by the monotonous 4 beat measure that is used in the majority of music. If not the general public, then at least the musicians should train their ear by listening to (and playing) folk music from the Balkans. KZbin has plenty of that, for starters. You'll see, this is a whole new universe.

[@ironicfib3r943]

I recently made a jam in 17/16 which is the most brain-hurty time signature I’ve used thus far

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

10:17 9/8 is basically 3/4 with Triplets on each beat. Likewise 18/16 (it's in the 26th Variation in Bach's Goldberg Variations) is basically 3/4 with Sextuplets on each beat. The difference lies within how they're written, but other than that it's all the same

[@geologist5838]

I always listened to Clair de lune by Debussy and thought that he intentionally ''stayed too long'' on the last chord or note, but I never considered that was actually the time signature

[@JohnnyOlsson]

This may already have been mentioned, but I think that when you let the ride play even quarter notes over two bars (and the riff also takes to bars to repeat) then we could just call it 9/4. But again, what matters isn't what is "formally correct" but what makes it understandable.

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

Yep, I could say that the cymbal is playing in 9/4, but I'm really just exploring the options of 9/8 beyond a single measure of it. The rest of my band is clearly thinking about 2 measures of 9/8, and thats how I'd write it. But it's fun to play 9/4 on top as demonstrated!

[@JohnnyOlsson]

@@SignalsMusicStudio Either way, I think that the trick of letting a ride or hi-hat play play "straight" over two bars so that it falls on the offbeat half the time is a really neat trick and helps tie things together. I think the first time I heard and reflected on this was in Sting's "I Hung My Head". Great song, btw.

[@TheGerkuman]

This is a very good explanation. All I would add is that if a person is counting above 6, it's generally useful to count 7 as 'sev' to keep to 1-sylable counting.

[@a-user-handle]

Genius

[@douchecraft3113]

Ever try counting Seven as "Sev"? That helped me a lot with these abnormal time signatures!

[@shadowscott9910]

123 223 323 like 6/8 but one more triplet pulse - well that is how I feel 9/8 anyhow.

[@egesahin2498]

In Turkey we call 9/8 "the Romani style". The band MFÖ uses it as they make catchy Romani inspired music. Check out their song Ele güne karşı.

[@anxietycelery1732]

I can count all these like 4/4. I'm useless.

[@VArsovski10]

5:50, this sounds like a Jazz version of Dream Theater 7:02: there we go :D Also, "traditional" depends on region, in Asia/eastern-Europe the traditional/folklore is 2+2+2+3, whilest in the west is 3+3+3 (which is the obvious time beat that Waltz) Thanks for a nice and thorough vid, learned quite a few things even if knew some others :)

[@jakelarner4202]

Thank you so much for this video man. I've been writing in 9 for a while and it's just really nice to have someone really flesh it out and contextualize how 9 works.

[@brandonearley9624]

Agreeed man! Preeeaaachh!! I’m so frustrated with getting my music BA right now.

[@samitavamondal7432]

I got your notification after so long Jake❤️, hope you are doing well :) your videos transformed my guitar playing from a clueless beginner to a confident intermediate over a past 1.5 years

[@baykus3006]

Descendents of Ottoman gypsies'/romanies' music has this rhythm as default in it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2GklYt3nZJpnaM Check this as an example.

[@boragungor777]

Helal =)

[@gepmrk]

Three eighth notes followed by three quarter notes. The Serbs play it the other way round with the quarter notes first.

[@baykus3006]

@@gepmrk Yeah this is a typical Balkan thing in general. I live in Turkey and am a dual citizen of Bulgaria. Both countries have this rhythm in it.

[@yondie491]

I can't stand and-ah, I always read "1 triple, 2 triple, 3 triple" As for how I count them, it's entirely dependent on the song. Most pieces are either "4/4 plus a half-beat flourish" or "3/4 but different" like Jesu Joy Of Man's Desiring. Speaking of... I'd absolutely LOVE to hear you talk about when to use 3/4, 6/8, and other similar relations.

[@cactustactics]

Can I suggest "one-ah-ah, two-ah-ah" instead? 🦇

[@yondie491]

@@cactustactics if it's for yourself that's fine, but if you have to communicate information to someone else, each beat section needs to be uniquely identifiable, so that could get cumbersome.

[@cactustactics]

@@yondie491 oh I was just making a bad joke about The Count, ah ah ah!

[@yondie491]

@@cactustactics ooooooooooooh! Sorry

[@TheOnlyJeebie]

I just wanted to point out that the Etude in E minor that you played is actually a Francisco Tárrega piece :) but I love your videos haha

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

Yeah I didn't realize that till I started adding links in the description and couldn't find the original... I did make sure to fix it in the chapter titles.

[@dylansbjpm]

The song Miracles Out of Nowhere by Kansas also makes really great use of 9/8 right at the beginning. It alternates between 4/4 and 9/8, and they even bring in 7/8 at some points. It’s a really interesting song to analyze when it comes to time signatures, in my opinion.

[@Alex-xh5bx]

In my guitar exam once I was given a 9/8 metal piece for my improv. When I went in all I thought was “don’t give me the 9/8” and they did 🥴 just my luck !

[@liquidsolids9415]

This was really cool and inspirational. Thanks for another fantastic video. You’re a gifted teacher and really have a knack for simple explanations. Keep up the great work!

[@buxeessingh2571]

Check out "In Old England Town" by the Electric Light Orchestra for the 3×2+3 feel.

[@certainlynotthebestpianist5638]

About the counting - I personally would count the 3x3/8 as "one-two-three, two-two-three, three-two-three", just as I count regular 6/8 as "one-two-three, two-two-three" :)

[@s90210h]

I see it as weights on a grid of accents projected. A player can purposefully slip some of these accents and deftly move between rhythms. If you're into counting and secrets in music, check out the music of Jaki Liebezeit!

[@dispersemedia]

9/8 doesn't need to sound odd. Happy birthday song is actually 9/8.

[@guitar864]

Happy Birthday is in 3/4

[@dispersemedia]

@@guitar864 With the swing feel, it's neater when written in 9/8. In 3/4, you'll need to write the 16th notes in triplets.

[@guitar864]

@@dispersemedia Nah, you write them as a dotted 8th and a 16th.

[@dispersemedia]

@@guitar864 Same sentiments. In 9/8, No dots needed. There are many valid ways to write a piece, but it's nice to have the least marks on the paper. Also consider how a drummer would accompany the song. If the hi-hats were played continuously, it would be three groups of threes - 9/8.

[@andrew6889-p5c]

Impressively clear explanation. The work you’ve put into the graphics and examples is really amazing. This is very high quality. Thank you.

[@EclecticEssentric]

Always awesome! Thanks. I played so uninformedly that when I began to actually learn music...I could barely pick 4s. I could do 3s, 5s, 7s, 1, 2, 6...but picking in 4s was hard. How weird is that?

[@matthewmargetts8516]

Thank you for this resource. I enjoy your pragmatic approach to teaching. Once again we can restate the age-old argument: "the creation should always lead the theory, not the theory (and theorists) leading the creation".

[@slimyelow]

These rhythmic aspects add to the reasons why Ravel's compositions and orchestration never get boring.

[@berkkucukoglu7332]

This video reminds me of the Camel band. Would you consider making a video about them? They also have some kind of Mediterranean or Eastern feel, while being a progressive rock band.

[@Aquatarkus96]

Moonmadness is an excellent album :) don't find too many Camel fans in the wild :)

[@lumipakkanen3510]

The key concept here is symmetry. 9/8 as a compound time signature is symmetric while your first groove is asymmetric; it doesn't read the same forwards and backwards. Talking about symmetric 9/8 vs. asymmetric 9/8 time signatures should keep you out of rant territory if everyone involved is familiar with the concepts. Even something like 8/8 if grouped asymmetrically as e.g. 3-3-2 can create a groove with extra drive.

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

A measure of 9/8 that is grouped as 9 sixteenth notes then 9 sixteenth notes is also symmetrical, but that grouping is not pleasant for traditional 9/8 since the grouping splits the measure into two even groups instead of three. I don't think symmetry is the key feature here, i believe it's the idea of strict three-per-beat groupings vs strict 2-per-beat groupings, and many compositions revolve around both instead of one.

[@The12thAvenger]

@@SignalsMusicStudio yeah I've always wondered about subdivisions like that. If we have compound time for triplets we should really have it for other tuplets as well. Following traditional compound notation, that measure of 9/8 should then in fact be 18/16 (which really would however also be measure of 6/4 with triplets in compound meter). This was a headache when I was writing a song with a septuplet swing feel. Notating with tuplets would make it super messy. Since the measures were 4/4 however, the compound time signature following traditional rules was 28/16, most people would look at that and think it's crazy (or just 7/4) but it's really simple 4/4 compound meter.

[@quezquez3084]

Excelent content, as always! But I think that we shoudn't think of dividing a 3/4 into triplets. It's better to use 6/8 or 9/8 in those cases.

[@eagleyeupnorth]

I like thinking of 9/8 as 3 triplets. Old american hymns make use of the triplets for a cheery tune.

[@GeorgeGeorge-xj2bc]

9/8 is not so strange meter as it seems.Greek "zeimpekiko" a very well known and popular dance is written excusively in meter of 9/8 and also there are a lot variations in the beat counting in older songs that called "rempetika" which have separate names also for each tempo execution as a unique song style.

[@slimyelow]

I always find the best explanations about complex rhythm stuff right here. SMS is awesome at this!

[@ModernGuitar]

Excellent video ! You can check how Wagner is using 9/8 in the overture of Tannhauser. It starts in 3/4, and the accompaniement is progressively shifting to 9/8 , but keeping the main theme in 3/4. I think in this case, one could interpret that being triplet in 3/4, but it's easier to read as an 9/8 bar.

[@brandonkeever6457]

I agree with what you're saying about being free with time signatures, but in the beginning example of 12 12 12 12 1, doesn't 4.5/4 fractional time signature make more sense than 9/8? I know fractional time signatures are a bit of a rarity, but I feel it makes sense to label that kind of pattern as 4.5/4 rather than some sort of syncopated 9./8. Great video as always!

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

I totally think 4.5/4 should be a valid time signature.

[@jeffgoblue]

@@SignalsMusicStudio I’ve seen 3.5/4 in some old band music. Early 20th century English stuff. In that case, just another way to say 7/8

[@EarthAltar]

Compound meter is the strict boss, and syncopation is the unruly employee.

[@cactustactics]

I've always felt this way too, that ?/8 is really about grouping those 8th notes with a triplet feel somewhere, which ends up giving it a certain rhythmic style no matter how you group the others. I like describing stuff like the opening riff of Unsung by Helmet as 8/8 - it's eight 8th notes, so technically that's like 4/4 subdivided, but it has that specific triplet DA-na-na DA-na-na DA-na rhythm that 4/4 doesn't really imply at all. I've talked to more theory-minded people about it and they say it's the wrong way to look at it, but I just find it more helpful! It's the same basic idea behind 3/4 vs 6/8, just with that "group stuff as triplets" approach applied to any number of 8th notes, not just multiples of three because that's the rule. Plus I don't think it's too helpful to stick rigidly to a system that was created to describe music, but isn't doing too well with specific ideas right now (or overcomplicates them by trying to crowbar them into the established rules and definitions). That's not saying throw 18th century European music theory out or anything, just that sometimes it's good to stretch it a bit!

[@snieznybalwan]

I love playing around with 9/8! It's not as easy as it seems, and there are so many ways to count it and create different, cool rhythms

[@tanksinatra3968]

I dont how I got here but hell yeah

[@HarlanHarvey76]

You create the best guitar lesson videos imho

[@Kylora2112]

"The Crunge" by Led Zeppelin is a perfect song to get into 9/8 with :)

[@Raffael-Tausend]

i actually have an etude for basson in 9/12 time. thats like just 9/8 it is three triplets if you wonder

[@AtomizedSound]

But is it really practical In theory and usage? What is 9/12 broken down

[@tyr4489]

A measure of 9 dotted eighth notes? Wouldn't that be better understood as 27/16?

[@loki3523]

From what I understand you’d be better off doing 9/8 if it’s three triplets. I’m all for irrational time signatures but generally they’re used for metric modulation, namely tuplets that are cut off (such as a bar of only 2 triplets). Write it how you want though- in theory it does make more sense than 9/8, and same with 12/12 instead of 12/8, since the pulse is felt like triplets, while 8th notes imply a quarter note has been halved rather than divided by 3. 12/8, 9/8, and 6/8 triplets don’t really make sense when you think about it tbh

[@EarthAltar]

No such thing as 9/12 time as there is no 12th note. The denominator must be a 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 etc. as those numbers correspond to the types of notes that actually exist. ½, ¼, ⅛, etc. 9/12 would correctly be written as 3/4 time, a waltz. Three beats per measure quarter note gets one beat. It's not that complicated, but you kinda have to know how fractions work as they are applied to musical meter.

[@loki3523]

​@@EarthAltar 9/12 is an irrational time signature, which is a more obscure concept that some musicians are hesitant to embrace. It exists for metric modulation- say your song's in 4/4 but you want a single bar that lasts the length of 1 quarter note and 2 eighth note triplets. You could write ♩ = ♩· and then have a bar of 5/8, but then you would have to follow it immediately with ♩· = ♩ and go back to 4/4. Instead you could use the irrational time signature 5/12- essentially a whole note divided into 4 quarter notes, each of those divided into triplets and thus making a so-called "12th note". That way you don't have to modulate twice for just one bar.

[@scottgray4623]

I play euphonium, and there's not much literature that isn't super modern, and as a fan of classical and baroque music, ended up playing transcriptions of concertos written for other instruments. The Mozart Bassoon Concerto in Bb Major K.191 has the 3rd movement in 3/4, but part is all triplets, giving it a 9/8 feel. Conversely, I was certain that the Rimsky-Korsakov Trombone Concerto had its 1st movement written in 12/8, but it turns out it's just in 4/4 with loads of triplets for whatever reason.

[@EC2727]

I've already watched this video about 4 times. I always get so excited when Jake uploads a video, ESPECIALLY when it applies directly to stuff I am searching for, but without success! Perfect timing yet again, my friend. The only way it'd be better is if it was even sooner! ;D

[@jamescerone]

I actually sort of disagree with this. Your way of explaining it was really bending my brain, and as soon as you said “quadruple meter grouped into threes” it immediately clicked. I think the problem is not that compound quadruple meter is confusing, but rather that it should be *followed up on* with your explanation, reenforcing that that is only a basis for grouping and not the *only* grouping. If you had done what you said you were going to at the beginning-explain the traditional teaching first, then explain your version-I would have understood it all much more easily. Your explanation is pretty confusing if you don’t have the traditional understanding to start from.

[@leftyguitarist8989]

I try to ignore the classical music elitists that tell you to do something a specific way. If something fits in a piece of music, that's WAY more important than whether or not it's classically accepted. And it isn't just 9/8 where an atypical subdivision works, the Tresillo rhythm subdivides 4/4 into 3+3+2 instead of your typical straight quarter or eighth notes.

[@kainbre]

What about 1,2. . 1,2 1,2. 1,2,3?

[@stevenwilliams9997]

Recently I've been analysing Zero Chance by Soundgarden. It drove me slightly mad! I eventually got it to a point were it made sense to me. I sometime wonder if we should be able to write something as 4.5 over 4. It seems mad, but the intro to that song is felt very strongly in the drums as 1 and 2 and 3 and etc but there's 11 quavers. So the only way I could make it work was to write it as 3/8 followed by 4/4 but it would make more sense to call it 4.5/4. If any one is tempted to look at that song don't just look at the intro. The whole song is full of weird time signature changes. Also thanks for the video, I was taught that 6/8 IS a compound metre and it took a long time for me to get past this HIGHLY LIMITING way of thinking/using the metre

[@burttheburger]

Scatterbrain by Jeff beck is a great example of 9/8

[@SignalsMusicStudio]

I use that song as in example of 9/8 in my video on odd time signatures!

[@isaacshulevitz5444]

A good 9/8 song is altered beast ii by king gizzard and the lizard wizard

[@atharvachoudhary6974]

King Gizzard is probably the only band which makes songs in 9/8 that you can headbang to

[@ethanpaulsoncomposer7252]

As the organist at my church I actually thought 9/8 was pretty common, not quite as common as 4/4 or 3/4, or even 6/8, but still pretty common, so we just always felt it out as 3/4 with 8th note triplets. Still a really cool video!

[@mhtbfecsq1]

I like your style of teaching, nice pace, friendly, informative and clear, and inspiring. Thanks