Why is the Alliance Controversial? (Attack on Titan Analysis)

[@randomusername3873]

I just love how reiner get yelled at and beat up, while annie gets treated like an old friend and has people fawning over her Levi is there obsessing over how he wants to kill zeke, that by their own admission was right all along, while Annie that killed his friends Is just there chilling and not a single word And then they are all greeting her with support when she just abandon the mission, wtf😂

[@datguy3581]

Levi is obsessed with Zeke because he’s the one he can take revenge on while actively improving the situation. Annie is an asset and Levi is well trained and disciplined enough to understand that. Yelling at the warriors is not going to help the situation.

[@obi-twokenobi4861]

So, what do you propose? You would let the whole worl die just for your survival and expect to live "free"? How can you be "free" if everyday you remember how millions died for you while you could have stoped it? That's not a damn live. And as someone said before, there is no point on attacking Annie. She is one of their more valuable assets, they want her on their side to stop the rumbling, not against them. And the reason Reiner gets a beatup is because Jean was is shock because he had learnt how Marco died, how did you expect him to react?

[@obi-twokenobi4861]

@bLackstar if you can really live at peace with the whole world erradicated by you, including inocent children, maybe you should prepare to be the one who is attacked by the other side, because that's how the cycle of violence works

[@t-ro6176]

@@obi-twokenobi4861 what would’ve happened if eren died by gabi’s shot?

[@datguy3581]

@@SuperBrahimos “It was then or Paradis” - Was it? By the time of the destruction of the global alliance fleet, Paradis held all the cards. They had the superior firepower. Marley’s military was broken. They could’ve defeated the Marleyan military and occupied the country without genocide.

[@JA-vu8my]

I honestly think Isayama wrote himself into a corner when he made the whole world unite with Marley against Paradis, except Azumabito. This decision limited his options on how to take the story further, and most importantly, it just does not make sense for billions of people to be united in their hatred against just One group of people and try to commit genocide against them, even by anime standards.

[@eavyeavy2864]

Europe usa ussr against H-man: 👀👀👀

[@spunkymaniac9312]

​@@eavyeavy2864that's not the whole world , and H man is not a whole nation , he's an ideology leader , an fucked up ideology but nevertheless,

[@KalashVodka175]

All nation leaders doesn’t equal to all of humanity. In fact its this inherent blindness to many that is part of the problem : seeing a country and the choices of its leader as a box in which every peoples is supposedly of the same hive mind, but this is is obviously bullshit, countries are no hive minds, and presidents and kings are often far removed from the wants and needs of their peoples.

[@Inoitoh-k3d]

​@eavyeavy2864 who?

[@z-man1237]

@@Inoitoh-k3d Adolf

[@otakurhino4530]

I think that isayama could of explained it better and showed it in a better way but I think the reason he didnt give a good argument is to show how panicked the alliance is and show that they don't know what to do they just don't want people to die alone. I think if he presented it more as a quick panic instead of there overall goal it would have made more sense

[@chryysanth]

that's a pretty good point. it makes sense that they would be kind of intuitively against the rumbling and not have a clear argument due to the circumstances. i think the main problem is people just not trying to understand them, but yeah isayama could've done some more to make it clear

[@ryanprytherick8468]

That's what I thought aswell. I thought the message was to do with how the best choice isn't clear and I assumed I was supposed to be doubting the alliance's action a little bit. I also thought it was show not tell because while they didn't directly state their thoughts I could see what the message was without overanalysing

[@otakurhino4530]

@@ryanprytherick8468 I know I'm gonna get alot of hate but I agree the alliance even if I do doubt then a bit. Yes eren is right in almost everyway he isn't morally right and does it justify him killing that many people and in there situation I would be as panicked as the alliance

[@lada8744]

I think the issue is the answer was still genocide, just of who. Hange acknowledges this and lead them to sacrifice their own people to genocide. In the anime, they have peace and live as a nation for a long time, but even Armin ends up agreeing with Eren and is glad he did the 80%. Armin’s final conclusion is that a mostly but not complete genocide was the correct answer.

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

The biggest criticism for the Alliance is that, in the end, the Yaegerists were proven right when Paradise was carpet bombed.

[@evronian1129]

Isn't that the whole point? Zeke was right too, so were the alliance, the point is that all sides were right and that it comes down to the moral decision of the individual characters.

[@satyamshukla3764]

The carpet bombing was way into the future. Atleast 60 plus yrs into the future. There is no way to know that it was on the same conflict or not. The reasons of that conflict are unknown. The future of any nation is unknown and uncertain. I am not saying what happened to to paradis is correct. But to say that the world exacted their vendetta against them, may or may not be accurate.We just don't know.

[@MelonMuskNiggaChocolate]

​@@SuperBrahimossoyboys 😂😂😂😂

[@satyamshukla3764]

@bLackstar conjecture and no actual evidence to suggest that. Its pointless to argue on a conflict with such little known detail.

[@obi-twokenobi4861]

Yeah, I am prety sure that starting a world genocide has nooooothing to do with that

[@Nawafmilfi]

Imagine fighting for your enemy

[@followertheleader]

Eren is right. He is merely a weapon that the world forced Paradis to use. It's like a nuke in flight. It's already too late for negotiations. Marley never self reflected on their actions and immediately staged a counter attack instead of trying to come to a cease fire. They wanted to win and made eren activate the rumbling. They are not heroes but simply a government that thought it's military was too powerful to lose. They deserve everything that happens to them. Reiner had years to do a media tour and explain that the island isn't as bad as people think. At worst he would be a martyr that the government shuts down quickly. Everything that happens is Marley's fault and the other world governments that allied with them.

[@chryysanth]

The thing is that it's completely understandable why the Marleyans wouldn't want to self-reflect? The only thing the Eldians did for 4 years was capture Marleyan ships. With no real diplomatic attempts there is no reason for the Marleyans to stop believing that everyone on the island is a monster; if anything their suspicions were confirmed by the fact that their scouting ships kept disappearing. I can't really bring myself to believe that ordinary Marleyans deserved to die horrifically just because they believed the words of their government. The whole point of Gabi's storyline specifically is that when people actually meet with other groups, they can come to understand each other and they can lose their prejudices. There are people like Falco, who are naturally compassionate and easily understand the perspectives of others, and Gabi is not like that at all. However, even someone like her is able to see the humanity in her former enemies. The problem is, there are probably more people in the world who are like Gabi than Falco, and so when they are given no challenge to their hateful worldview, they continue to hate.

[@triton5336]

​@@chryysanth Challenges to their world view ? Okay Eldians can turn into man eating Titans that's no misconception. The whole world hates Eldians because of man reasons mostly because of what they are not who they are (Marleyians treat their eldians bad even though they are children who are innocent and can do no wrong)... besides Hizuru which is more or less Neutral. Udo said it himself that the world treats them worse and actually kicks them out of their lands and Marley being the "kindest😈" of them decided to keep them as ammunition for titan suicide bombers. Udo might be young but what Eren saw in Liberio is no lie. Refugees tons of them discarded by their nations. The problem with people and the morally grey story is the don't except the fact the conflict has reached a point of NO RETURN. Why should Eldians not hate Marley for sending Titans to wipe them out. Commander Magath said he felt sorry that bertholdt was gonna go there and start killing them one day like a zoo keeper feeling sorry for a lamb he fed to a tiger or lion. Eren is right only one side is coming out of this alive and why should he let the enemy kill his people ? So that he seems like a "good person" or something... Eren is not nihilistic and doesn't believe in Karl Fritz/Zeke Jaeger ideology he loathes it. Human beings can always talk and try to understand each other but let me give you an example of why its NOT always the solution to conflict as a matter of fact it could make it worse. If your little sister just wanted to go to a store to buy a phone or something and some guy comes along and kill her for some initiation into a gang or drug money then are you suppose to forgive them ? You find out why but does that make you sympathetic no, will killing satisfy you probably not but it safes any potential victims from suffering the same fate. People can change but people also can't or refuse to. The world is to big and complex to use a couple people as evidence you can change the whole worlds views on something that is based on facts in their Eyes. You can show them how good and nice you are but The world and certainly not Marley will decide to forget their war plans of getting resources and the founder to maintain power for peace against the very thing saving them from being crushed by their enemies. Marley also wants to unite the world under the Declaration of War after the Mid East/Marley campaign so that it can get the resources, possibly the founder and time to develop before conflict may rise again. Its not that they just hate Paradis Eldians, they also want what they have and will take it by force. The situation is way to complicated and deep to be solved in Eren's generation, Historia and her baby are literally the only royal bloodlines left if they are gone... Paradis is gone. The Alliance is a FAILURE in making me believe there is another way or that what they are doing is also right when they know they are just essentially trading one genocide for another but couldn't care less unless they "save the world" for their Morality's sake. Eren should have just abandoned them lol and go explore the world with the remaining time he has... they are not worth the trauma, sacrifice and tears.

[@Akiraspin]

"Everything that happens is Marley's fault." Holy fuck that's the biggest amount of cap I've heard. Do you not understand that the Eldians ruled the world with a tyrannical fist *for fucking 2000 years?* Let me repeat, not 2000 years "AGO" *FOR 2000 YEARS* it only ended 100 years ago, and only because King Fritz was born with a fucking conscience. Imagine Nazi Germany taking control of the world back when Romans were running around, enslaving the entire landmass of Europe and using biological superweapons that no one stands a chance against *for 2000 years straight* , entire ethnicities wiped out, cultures destroyed, religions genocided for 2000 years straight. Every single country on the planet and all their citizens live in abject terror and subservience to people who can transform into 50 ft tall humanoid monsters that devour human flesh. Okay, now imagine Europe comes together and defeats the Nazi's. Anyone whose German is *going* to be hated right out the gate. Their history is simply that awful. For fuck sakes you have shit loads of people in real life here in America that scream shit like "Kill all whites!" and "Whites are the devil!" because our ancestors colonized the land. What the Eldians did is thousands of magnitudes worse than any white settler here in America or anywhere around the world for that matter. And it's cute of you to think Reiner would be able to even leave his house and travel abroad telling people about the people of Paradis, they'd capture his ass and feed him to some brainwashed pleb in 2 hours if they found him spouting what they see as Anti-Marley propaganda. Marley is a shitty country, they are almost as bad as the Eldian Empire, but they still aren't genociding massive amounts of people and ruling the world with an iron fist, other countries have autonomy, their cultures and religions are intact. FFS you watched Flochs nuthugging ass try to put a bullet in Onyakapons brain just because he wouldn't proverbially suck his dick, you're telling me Floch deserves to live more than Onyakapon? The only logical and moral solution is the 50 year plan, followed by opening diplomatic relations while Paradis is protected by a joint families of one owner of the Attack/Founding Titans, and Royalty born from Historia that will be turned into a Pure Titan for the express purpose of using them to destroy any attackers. It's literally foolproof, because now you have 2 Royal Families that must both agree on using the Rumbling for it to be used. If you really think the Rumbling is justified then that means you think you and your whole family deserve to die, because spoiler alert, you aren't in the walls, and you aren't Eldian. Guess you must hate your own family and everyone you know and love.

[@Harry-ly7ld]

@@chryysanth Eren hijacked their attempt to diplomacy during the scouts exploration in Marley. It was way too late. Just go check back "dawn of humanity".

[@datguy3581]

​ @triton5336 The misconception is that Eldians want to turn into man eating titans and kill everyone outside their island. That is a very real misconception which is fueling much of the conflict. It's true that the fact that Eldians can turn into titans is not helpful but it's not the sole reason that Eldians are hated. Much of it has to do with the experiences people have had with titans that were controlled by Marley or the experiences that their family would have historically had. Paradis hadn't made an effort to change the misconceptions around Paradis that the world had. So there is no reason Marleyans were given to reflect. They had no new information that would cause them to question their beliefs. Eren went rogue and slaughtered innocents, confirming that the biases held by the world were right. The Scouts and Paradis never had the opportunity to change the misconceptions around them because of Eren. No one is saying racism against Eldians will just go away but there's a big difference between racism directed towards a country and enough fear to motivate a war. Marley's government was after the fossil fuels on Paradis and manipulated their population. If exposed to new information, it's a safe bet that it would cause some descent and discussion. And that along with something like the colossal titans and 50 year plan, could be enough to secure Paradis' position in the world. If people as bad as Magath and the Warriors can change their perspectives, why can't other Marleyans (who are not soldiers)? Do we really know that Udo is accurate in saying that the world treats Eldians worse? Sure there's probably countries that do treat Eldians worse but I have a hard time believing it's all countries. We even see Eldian treatment is slowly getting better within Marley itself. The Eldians in the zone seem to be treated better in the present than when Grisha was little. There are Eldians rights groups which are open about their beliefs. The Mid East Alliance seems to hate Marley and only sided with them after Eren killed their diplomats. No one is saying that the world will just get over racism but we've seen Marleyans accept Eldians. Nicolo, the Marleyan captured sailors, the anti marleyan volunteers, the refugees, and the azamabito are all fine with the Eldians being Eldians. Many nations didn't even care about Eldia until their diplomats were slaughtered in an act of war by Paradis. I'm sure using the colossal titans in some capacity would be necessary for Eldia's survival but genocide definitely isn't. Those refugees who have suffered under Marley and other fighting nations will die with the outside world in the Rumbling. I just fail to see how the world has reached a point of no return especially in regards to Paradis when Marley was the only country interested in invading them and Marley was in the process of losing power. Paradis had the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of nukes at their disposal. They could've taken over the entire world if they wanted. They could make demands and Marley would have no choice to obey or face the colossals. The idea that people will reach a "point of no return" is silly to me. Things can always get better. Throughout history, this has always been the case. People can be educated better. They can learn. The Marleyan military government is not a permanent part of this world. It can be toppled. People don't automatically become vengeful when something bad happens to them by another group. Often a toppling of a regime leads to civilians turning on that regime. The civilians of Marley and Eldia don't deserve to die for what their governments and militaries have done and not everyone in those countries is willing to kill everyone else. They're just scared and that can be changed. Paradis' best bet would be to use the colossal titans defensively and as a bargaining chip. They could sell their fossil fuels to other countries to build political relations and acquire technology they can use to advance their air force. They could change the perception of Eldians around the world by taking an active positive role in the world. They could do things like force Marley to give up their colonies such as the one Onyonkapon came from. That would buy Paradis more allies while Marley couldn't do anything about it do to the colossal titans. Paradis could disseminate their own propaganda to counteract that of Marley. Actually showing up in these countries and proving that they don't want to destroy them would help the situation. Marley elites want power but they aren't suicidal. The Marleyan elites would loose all their power if they went to war with a nation with weapons like colossal titans. Sure Marley and some of her allies won't forget their war plans but they don't need to. They just need to be afraid enough of Paradis to not make a move so Paradis can use its resources to get politically and economically involved in other countries. Fossil fuels are a powerful motivator and there is much some countries could benefit from aligning themselves with Paradis because of it. It's true that the conflict won't be resolved during Eren's lifetime but that's okay. All that needs to happen is the conflict being set on a path that gives more power to Eldia and then sets them up for eventual de-escalation. Also the military police's plan was to have Historia have multiple children so there would be better chances of a continued line. I doubt they'd be in any danger because not even the Yeagerists found out where the military police hid Historia.

[@rexcyjones9416]

The fact that Eren asked Hange one last time for an alternative plan, yet she just brushed it off and joke with him to avoid the conversation....Yep she inadvertently pushed Eren to the edge there. He was open for more ideas just to avoid the unavoidable since he knew it would still happen no matter. At least a good alternative plan would have given him some sliver of hope. But nah, Alliance chose to side with the enemies with no concrete plan other than stop the monster they pushed to the edge.

[@mistake1197]

Unfortunately eren chose his friends over his people. He could of had ymir erase his friends memory until he finished the rumbling but he didn't despite knowing they would stop and despite knowing that a incomplete rumbling would be the end of paradise....

[@rexcyjones9416]

@@mistake1197 as much as i would like to cope...anything we say about what could have, should have or would have been is utterly pointless. The author himself ended the series by butchering Eren's character, turning all the Rumbling event utterly pointless. Let alone the extra pages was a love letter of double downing how badly the series truly ended, and the Rumbling event was nothing but a mindless genocide that humanity will always remember. Oh and hey the Alliance did thanked him for killing all those 80% of humans for them lmao.

[@kendivedmakarig215]

​@@mistake1197 Even in Season 1, Eren is already fighting for his people.

[@annett_55555]

​@@mistake1197aren't sasha, hange, filch and levi his friends too?

[@lxfj2128]

The issue with the alliance is that they have absolutely no alternative to the rumbling as the rumbling is the only way to save paridise perm. As a manga reader it was clear that the conflict and hatred will never end until one side is totally wiped out . If they stop eren it secures paridise destruction. The alliance are well aware of that as hange and Jean admitted it but just can’t put their morals away. As a manga reader the alliance are dooming their island to death just because they can’t throw there morals away.

[@masqueraze4449]

The Rumbling wont save Paradis or Humanity tho.

[@astralaurora4165]

It was Eren who doomed his island. He escalated the conflict when there were other options (partial rumbling/azumabito/historia). All because he couldn’t let go of his childish ideal of freedom. By the time he’d begun the rumbling, he had perpetuate the cycle he was trying to destroy.

[@masqueraze4449]

@@astralaurora4165 Yeah but the cycle stopped.

[@astralaurora4165]

@@masqueraze4449 for the short term I suppose, long term it didnt tho

[@boppinboyz]

@@astralaurora4165 the partial rumbling would not work at all. It would only stall for a few years. The cycle would still continue. The cycle of Ymir’s curse would still continue. And also he wasn’t going risk Historia be used to keep pumping out babies . Like what King Fritz used to do. That’s literally continuing the cycle he wanted to end. Him doing 100% of the rumbling would ensure no racism or cycle of hatred . They would obviously be conflict , that’s just how humans are. But at least it won’t be because of just being born.

[@nil091090]

For me, I think making both sides morally grey and Eren doing the bad wrong thing is exactly what the message of the manga is. It’s not asking which side is wrong or if the rumbling and genocide is right- the question in my opinion that Isayama wants us to ask ourselves and each other is “what should we do, as humans so that this does not happen to us in real life?”

[@chryysanth]

yeah kind of my thoughts exactly. it's so clear why these characters do such horrible things and that sets us up to better avoid them in the real world

[@ulysses5439]

kill all our enemies

[@jyotirani8187]

"What we should do as humans?" Endanger your homeland, kill your nation's soldiers and destroy the strongest weapon they had so when the other nations fight back, your nation is defenseless, amiright?

[@muneebhaider104]

@@SuperBrahimos Yeah, killing 2 billion people because a few 1000s (or 100000s at best) were trying to kill them.

[@muhammadHassan-kj1jy]

​@@SuperBrahimosZeke did nothing wrong

[@rudy2538]

Isayama wrote himself into a corner and didn't want to outright say that genoword was the only choice.

[@dantdmfangamingrich9802]

Isayama probably wrote the alliance to have more scenes in because of the Paradis side of the alliance decided to help Eren, the marley side would probably die or become friends and Eren would come back after killing everyone, they apologize, and Eren rebuilds the walls, breaks the curse or not and lives his final 4 years. But Isayama wanted more chapters/episodes so he made the alliance

[@silveratlas2706]

As a concept, the alliance is not inherently wrong. It all comes down to the execution. The execution of the Rumbling arc is garbage in multiple ways. It's rushed, it retcons the best parts of its story to achieve its ending, the dialog is especially horrible and fails to clearly convey what it's trying to say, it creates more question than it solves and the answer it gives either make no sense or come out of nowhere and finally, it ignores the build up of many plotlines that go nowhere in favor of new ones that have never been set up.

[@FlexSZN23]

I just don’t understand how people even try to bring up diplomacy. When the show makes quite clear thats not possible at all. Did people even watch the Show? Starting to think people just watched the fight scenes. It’s the world vs the island of Paradis, either the island gets annihilated (the world alliance has already decided to this before Eren activated the rumbling) or the other countries (the aggressors) get annihilated. If Eren doesn’t activate the rumbling, the other nations *WILL* Annihilate Paradis. This was a certainty. Moreover, Marley has been launching dozens of attacks against a peaceful Paradis for decades (General Magath, tells Zeke they’ve sent many ships there) so all the Eldians could do was either sit in Paradis & get nuked or fight back. There is no “genocide is bad” argument since a genocide is gonna happen regardless. People have the right to self defense and engage their enemies when they have declared war. I don’t understand why this is so hard to understand. Either most aot are so idealistic that they believe the world will do a 180 and all of sudden agree to let Eldians live, or they don’t watch the show just the fight scenes. It’s pretty clear cut. The rumbling was a justified response. A country absolutely has the right to engage in a war that has been declared on them.

[@lisboah]

Precisely. And people might say "Eren should have just destroyed Marley", and my response would be "And do you think the rest of the world will simply let it?" If Eren destroyed Marley, the rest of the world would agree to Marley's propaganda that the people from Paradis are a threat to the world as a whole. They would simply buy their time and create even better anti-Titan weaponry.

[@AlexCenFiner]

Even if the rumbling was a justified response it wasn’t a good response. Destroying cultures, children, families is no where near worth it in my opinion. Maybe diplomacy wouldn’t work but destroying 80% is a bit overkill in my opinion.

[@lisboah]

@@AlexCenFiner There were no good choices, but he had to pick one. People would die either way, and he chose one that would ensure that no one in the island would die. Even if that meant killing everyone else.

[@ceciliaslepmet4840]

It's fucking not

[@CarbonatedGravy]

I get what you’re saying, but he really failed to show in any way whatsoever that there’s an alternative to war and diplomacy can work, the alliance only formed after there was nothing left to kill each other over and that whole 4 year timeskip that could have been used for it showed us no success whatsoever at diplomacy, they didn’t try to ally with the other nations who were surely desperate enough to set aside ideology since none of them have been personally hurt by paradis and have been enormously hurt by marley

[@lisboah]

Honestly I never understood why the world believed Marley's side of history saying that the Eldians were tyrants that wanted to use the titans to take over the world. Because... isn't that what Marley was doing? Using titans to conquer other countries? So why would other countries accept this?

[@ianmurphy3712]

I think you nailed the point about why most people are not a fan of the tonal shift the story made, but it doesn't end there. As a reader of the series for a decade, I can not describe to you the ending of a certain character's arc as being anything but beyond comprehension. I'm not watching the show but I think the show has not gotten there yet, but you will know what I'm talking about when it occurs. Life is struggle and competition for resources and always will be in the foreseeable future, so as a reader of the series I could not see the alliance to stop Eren as being anything but youthful naivete. That's just my bias though, great video as usual my dude.

[@Inoitoh-k3d]

Are you talking abt eren?

[@jan1241]

Reiner: I'm sorry for my actions. . . . . . . . Annie: I'd do it again, lol.

[@Dioriohagu]

And still they helped them 😂 Eren was trying to save bunch of stupids 😂

[@rebelfighter5249]

The fact Annie got to live a long life and get married to Armin is the biggest slap in the face. She showed no remorse for her actions whereas Reiner cried and apologized to his friends over and over again for his. Out of the entire Marleyan group, Reiner earned the right to live long and happy.

[@goddesshoneymoon]

the alliance is disgusting no matter what its defenders argue, it makes no sense that hange, jean, connie, levi, etc, save their murderers and slavers by choosing the genocide of their land, friends and compatriots; I hate them.

[@chryysanth]

i feel like flaming on a rumbling supporter today. attack on titan is in large part about understanding different perspectives and you have made no attempt to do that with the alliance. many of the anti-alliance people in this comment section presented good arguments that were interesting to hear out, but you have very transparently revealed that you only know how to reject beliefs that you don't already hold and not actually engage with them and understand them. come back when you've figured out how to actually listen to and understand other people's beliefs; i want to see you improve

[@f2pcoder92]

@@chryysanth the ego on you, i read all these comments but there is one thing u got wrong aot is based on realism (philosophy and theme) all throughout the series until isayama wanted to forcibly change how the anime worked pre marley ark where there was a choice to be made between erwin and armin thats where the tone shifted and it was decided by isayama which in the long run killed of the characters (personality) and etc. It was further reinforced that the hatred towards the eldians both on island and the world will not stop and there was no peacefull solution so outside of the island they were killed tortured and etc but in marley they were in concetration camps where they were starved ,gaslighted and brainwashed how bad they are for something their ancestors did ages ago and has nothing to do with them and there is a contrast that shows in the island where they are truly inocent they have no idea about anything and had no knowledge until it was way too late that the world hates them and they were supressed both societal wise,historicly and culturaly wise on both sides (outside and inside of the island by people that were too blinded by the past or selfishly decided to let their people die of which is a common trait between marleyan eldians(zeke and etc) and the royal family which fyi had no actual moral reason to decide that for everyone but get this all this complexity doesnt matter for shit cause it was all in the end irrelavant erens goal for "freedom",zekes plan,sasha death and etc as it was only created for a certain person to be "free" and yeah imagine letting your people suffer for thousands of years under opression and conflict only because of stupid stuff (which i dont wanna spoil).The alliance reasoning is idiotic , i get what they are thinking and mass destruction of life is indeed bad however isayama has built himself into a dead end world wise for anything else to happen beyond that so i dont support it the way they treated the eldians at the port,the way they are quick to betray their own people,hate themselves for being eldians even tho marley fyi caused far more destruction with the politics,propaganda and war within past 200 years then the surviving eldians ever did and when they did it it was also used as weapon for marley to cause that lingering hate to not disapate and cover behind the hate itself so they can in the end be the good guys even tho they are the bad guys. thank you and bye :D

[@t-ro6176]

@@chryysanth what would’ve happened to paradise if eren died by gabi’s shot?

[@yashdwivedi9450]

Existence of Alliance is totally out of boundaries of realism. In reality, nobody joins the enemy forces even if their country is doing wrong. No example in history. It was just for hero villian sake.

[@blooharrison8105]

@@chryysanth You sound incredibly arrogant

[@maysonoye2248]

I personally think part of the reason writers and creators leave it up in the air for decisions like this, is because it leaves it up in the air. People can create their own endings, their own story's. That's somthing I find amazing and fun to do.

[@chryysanth]

i get that, like i also enjoy being able to debate things like this. but to me it feels like some elements (like many of the ones i talk about in this video) are underwhelming because characters don't have adequate explanations for why they are doing what they're doing. it doesn't have to be an explicit message, but many viewers don't even understand why characters like hange would ever go against the rumbling and imo that's partially a fault of the writing

[@maysonoye2248]

@@chryysanth that's fair enough, I see your point.

[@jemormaypa4005]

Alliance are hypocrites

[@binatog123]

not hypocrites but they are suck and pieceeee of shitttsssssssss imagine seing your family,friends,comrades get killed by marleyans yet they still sided to them cuz they don't want genocide because many children and innocent will die💀 if theyjust know how mr.jaeger sister died she literally get eaten alive by those dogs because marleyans. also this is bad writing all those build up in season 1-season 3 it all just became shittt

[@jemormaypa4005]

@@binatog123 I agree

[@PrinceKumar-oy3kd]

What eren was doing wrong but , given the invetival condition eren was right

[@ACORNyMOFO]

Fighting for your right to live is NEVER wrong.

[@dmat606]

@@ACORNyMOFO Killing innocents to do that is wrong.

[@eyeeerie]

@@dmat606 well said

[@speedy3702]

I think people are missing that the Alliance was essentially an indirect and intentional creation by Eren himself. A lot of their members could have been easily manipulated by him to join the Yeagerists if he wanted to, but he clearly didn't and instead he manipulated them against himself ("laughing" at Sasha's death, threatening Hange, insulting Mikasa, beating up Armin, etc). I think the key point here is that there was a huge conflict going on inside of Eren. A part of himself believed that a radical Rumbling was the only way to save his people. While the other part was totally aware how vile and morally unacceptable such an act is, to the point that any normal person involved with it would want to kill himself due to all the innocent lives in his conscience). So Eren's solution to the dilemma was to take full moral responsibility of the Rumbling to himself (with exception of some useful idiots like Floch that he didn't care about), while at the same time provoking his real friends to fight against himself. That way they would not only have the chance to have a long life, but with them also being able to sleep at night knowing that they technically saved the lives of 20% of humanity.

[@lerneanlion]

I never get why Paradis blew its chance when the opportunity was presenting itself during the Marley Mid-East War. If Paradis allied with the Mid-East Alliance, the people of Paradis will have a chance to prove themselves to the world! But what were Hange and Armin doing? They were doing nothing but trying to talk with Marley and constructing a port and a railway. When the Mid-East Alliance needed help the most when it was losing the war, Paradis can enter the picture and save the day. But that did not happen and in the end, the Rumbling happened. Also, do you believed in what Udo said? About the Eldians outside of Marley were treated worse? I am definitely NOT believing that like at all. Why? Well, he is just a kid and a kid barely knows how the world operated, regardless that is he a child soldier or not.

[@chryysanth]

i kind of agree actually. i feel like there should've been more in the story to explain what paradis was doing during the 4 year gap. the few flashbacks we got don't really feel like enough to explain why they seem to have done effectively nothing during those years also i guess that's a good point about what Udo said. it could be marleyan propaganda or something like that

[@lerneanlion]

@@chryysanth And that is what frustrated me greatly! We never shown any sorts of interaction on the political and diplomatic level between Paradis and the nations that made up the Mid-East Alliance at all. If the Pashas, the Beys, the Sultans or whoever in charge of those countries rejected the idea of allying with Paradis but then reconsider them later have been shown, that will be a good thing to see! But no, we got nothing like that. Now that I mentioned it, will you do a video about the possibility of Paradis and Mid-East Alliance become each other's allies in the future? I looked across the Internet and saw very few of them are being discussed. And when they do, they are not being taken seriously. It was like that even the people in the real world bought Marley propaganda while also rejecting the idea of using the Rumbling at the same time. Heck, some even said that the Eldians deserve to go extinct in a sense by supporting Zeke's plan while some not. The point is that these fans rejected all three plans in general. And I do not know why like at all. By the way, did you see my other comment in that video about Gabi? What do you think of it? You can reply from there if you wanted.

[@chryysanth]

@@lerneanlion I've actually had some ideas of making a video about possible ways Paradis could achieve its survival through diplomacy and stuff like that, and if I did I could definitely incorporate what you said. There's a lot of room for analysis of AoT through that lens and I haven't really seen other people do it before. Also yes I saw your other comment and it was an interesting read! I replied to it there but I feel like there's a lot more I could say

[@lerneanlion]

@@chryysanth When you do a video about that. Will you bring in the Franco-Ottoman alliance in as well? The point of doing this is to raise the awareness of its existence back then, of course. It seemed to me that many people are not aware about it. Heck, it seemed to me that the current President of France does not even know about it while he called Turkey out for this and that on politics a few years back. If that is true, then I am not surprised that Mr. Isayama does not know about it. But what if he does but intentionally ignored it? That will lead to other questions such as "Why did he do that?" and "What will he gain from this?". Heck, the talk about such an alliance on KZbin is so rare that it is just some mentions there and there on a few history channels and some videos from Magnificent Century only. And what do you think of the peoples on Reddit and Quora who rejected the idea of Paradis allied with the Mid-East Alliance just because they believed in what Marley said, hating the fact that Eren unleashed the Rumbling, supporting Zeke's plan and vice versa? It was like that they hated and rejected everything about the end of Attack on Titan and simply wanted to vent out their anger and frustration. And when some people offered them solutions, they did not take them seriously, outright ignored them or even spat back with rejection and prejudice toward those solutions. I just do not get these people like at all.

[@chryysanth]

@@lerneanlion Yes for sure I think that would be a great example, and I could always have more examples of unlikely alliances forming due to common goals. As for the second part of your comment, I gotta admit I haven't seen really anyone other than you even mention the possibility of this alliance so I haven't seen people reject it either. But based on what your saying it seems pretty short-sighted or even close minded for people to reject something like that without looking into the practicality of it.

[@Ggggch687]

I think the fact that there is no concrete rebuttable to the yagerist is actually a good decision. If there is a clear path to peace then Erin is just downright evil and we have a story between black and white good guys and bad guys. The fact that erens decision while still completely wrong is at least understandable from the pov of a traumatized teenager who believes his entire country is going to be wiped off the map if he doesn’t act, is a good writing decision and makes the story more interesting

[@chryysanth]

i guess it's somewhat a trade off: either make eren look more evil or make the alliance look kinda stupid. in my opinion though the former is preferable as even if eren did feel more evil like that i'd still find him compelling as he still continues to represent the development of the mindset that leads to genocide. at that point it's kinda personal preference, though

[@TheAngryMontage]

@@chryysanth that would make the yeagerists completely evil and remove the morally grey aspect.. (no one will route for them or understand them) + it wouldn't make the alliance stupid (they literally address that it will be dangerous for the island but it's a better gamble than allowing a global genocide where you won't be able to live with yourself)

[@t-ro6176]

My thing is how can the paradise side of the alliance can can have a contingency for their own people but not the outside world.

[@Omega-jg4oq]

You know.. at first they didn’t want to fight the yeagerists but they are forced to because the yeagerists will not hesitate to kill them and the alliance had to make sure the ship is safe not destroyed by them and the more time they waste. the more people die by the rumbling, Reiner and Annie were actually going to fight the yeagerists alone while others stay hidden, the alliance killed only the yeagerists not the people and not all of them were against Paradise.. their main priority was to save humanity and end the cycle of hatred and start a new beginning

[@yashdwivedi9450]

People say aot resembles the real world a lot and it does. But alliance doesn't make sense. In real world, nobody joins the enemy even if their country is doing wrong For example America nuked Japan killing so many innocents. Sure many people in America may have criticised it. But no one in America joined the Japanese forces to fight off their own army. I think, existence of alliance is very unrealistic, it's just for the sake of story. Hero villian thing.

[@cthree0]

One thing this flavor of video/debate should cover imo is that while the stated alliance motivation is "genocide bad" what it really ends up being in the end is "utilitarianism good" - because they stop a big genocide and directly ensure a smaller one later with paradise being destoyed in the end. So, really its a question of whether one subscribes to a utilitarian philosophy or not.

[@derekclinton9438]

"Why is the Alliance controversial?" Well, it was kind of cliche. A lot of series have had points where two opposing sides join together when faced with a greater threat, and once this threat is dealt with they get a happily ever after. The Alliance feels forced because its different members had been fighting each other for years and had killed each others loved ones. For example, Annie killed Levi's original squad, but Levi never brings this up and is instead solely focused on killing Zeke. However, despite this they team up, and after some brief initial friction they decide to let bygones be bygones. After they stop Eren, they are still together years later acting as ambassadors, and there is no sign of any animosity between them. However, the last chapter reveals that the cycle of war continued and that Paradis was eventually destroyed by the outside world. This means Eren's fears were actually justfied, and that the Alliance and their actions were pointless in the grand scheme of things. Ironically, the series itself made fun of this kind of ending earlier in the story. Early in the manga, Pixis tells Eren about an old belief: if all of mankind was confronted with a single enemy then they would unite against it. Eren views this idea as naive, as the humans inside the Walls had a single enemy in the form of the Titans, but they were still fighting among themselves. They did this kind of ending for Tokyo Ghoul :re too. For certain series this kind of ending may be right, but for series like these fans were looking for something more nuanced.

[@SauloA333]

I know this comment is late for the way these kinds of videos that are months old have already discussed everything available in the series, but really one of the most irritating things about The Alliance is precisely the treatment or sense of impunity that Annie receives as opposed to Reiner who becomes something of a punching bag while Annie is just there... In the back of the car seat after having slaughtered an entire unit with total. Sadism? And going into hivernation, I know that both Reiner and Annie's actions are equivalent, they both killed untold numbers of people, but Reiner has at least some "distance" from that massacre, and feels an incredible level of remorse and regret, Annie acts like she just stepped on a bug and no one says anything at all... And while Levi and Mikasa also kill their comrades, the motivation and manner are not the same. They were trying to stop Eren, Annie was just handing another asset to Marley.

[@frogsoup7443]

I was thinking the exact same thing rewatching the series. Annie is purposefully sadistic in the way she killed the scouts, twirling one soldier like a yo-yo. She kills Levi squad as well, but Levi never addresses this. He obviously holds grudges as he did with Zeke, but why not Annie? She never shows remorse and is never confronted.

[@piyanath1066]

​@@frogsoup7443that's why I hate her character

[@KICK839]

Annie should have been killed off. The way everyone becomes friends with her although she was 100% in control while killing other party ....she didn't deserve the forgiveness

[@lilianemachadostigliano1727]

7:40 yeagerbomb:i shall ignore this

[@PrinceKumar-oy3kd]

Hanji and Armin are not optimistic they are just delusional want to be hero

[@kendivedmakarig215]

​@Minni It is just proven that you don't have knowledge and common sense.

[@Light12187]

​@Minni wow you have lost your all brain cells , I see ,,, Because I didn't see a single episode where Eren is trying to become a " hero " but Armin did that in ch 139 lol

[@sebastiancaris]

I was a Yeagerist from the beggining, and specially at the ending I was proven that the Alliance was useless

[@chryysanth]

nah

[@realcirno1750]

but stopping the rumbling wouldnt have stopped the cycle of hatred the only way was either a 0% rumbling or a 100% rumbling this is the key to why the ending is so shit and unsatisfying

[@chryysanth]

idk this argument has never made sense to me. why would a decision not on the extremes make the already turning cycle of violence suddenly become unstoppable. if anything stopping the rumbling after it has started would prove to the rest of the world that the people on paradis are multifaceted and desire different things, if only they had been able to stop it sooner.

[@realcirno1750]

ok but clearly that didnt happen (i assume you read the manga) where do you draw the line? like do you think they would have been cool with a 20% rumbling? i think your idea is unrealistic, there were marleyans that saw the curse of ymir be lifted right before their own eyes and they still bombed the shit out of paradis, its only natural to be paranoid and the enemy states lose nothing by being careful

[@realcirno1750]

@@chryysanth either way i think we can both agree that the alliance robbed us of our kino manga ending (im an aoe believer though)

[@tautiksinharoy5650]

​​@@chryysanthren does not have many yrs to live if he does a partial rumbling and warns the world of full rumbling then when he dies and passes the founder and attack Titan to someone else the new inheritor might not have the will power like eren to do full scale rumbling like eren can if the world declares full scale war on eldia .the next inheriter of founder and attack Titan might be some one like armin or hange who will look for solutions even when the world declares full scale war on them.Then what will happen to eldia.

[@datguy3581]

@@realcirno1750 The best course of action would probably have been the militaries original plan: wipe out the Global Military Alliances' navy and use that as well as their connection to Hizuru as bargaining chips. People would feel less bad about a failed attack on Paradis then they would about their countries and homes being trampled and destroyed. Paradis had access to hundreds of thousands of colossal titans and there was no reason they had to dispose of them. They didn't have to break the curse of Ymir. They could've kept them around in order to influence foreign policy. They could've improved their reputation abroad by supporting countries like Onyonkapon's which suffered under Marleyan rule while using the colossals as leverage against Marley and other major world powers to prevent them from militarizing against Paradis. We have very little context for the conflict that happens at the end of AoT's extend chapter but it happens seemingly over a century afterwards and could very likely have nothing to do with the Rumbling. It may very well be a fight over resources or some other political conflict. Let's not forget that the reason that Marley invaded Paradis was not because of hatred but because they wanted Paradis' fossil fuels.

[@Alaa-gv6ks]

Peace was never an option and will never be, it doesn't matter what the alliance group fight for cause Humans will never learn from their mistakes that's what History proved everyone think they are doing the right things from their perspective

[@chryysanth]

I can see where you're coming from in terms of attack on titan but I don't think you can be as certain about history and the real world. obviously there are many examples of war in modern times but there are also many examples of countries that used to be bitter rivals that have now been at peace for a very long time. plus the amount of wars and amount of people dying in wars have both gone down dramatically

[@aryanverma8344]

I really hate people who just says and accepts world is shit and humans can never change before even trying to understand. If there are bad guys in the world there certainly are good ones too who doesn't get caught up. Hell even during holocaust some Germans saved multiples Jews, during Early 20th century many white people protested with black people because people like them refuse to accept world is shit before trying. That's what alliance is trying to do here they know genocide is not the answer even if genocide had happened same Titan history will repeat itself just like the great Titan war.

[@magatetus]

Yagerists 👍🏾 Alliance 👎🏾

[@E43N]

Yeagerist =Gigachad

[@Tux7916]

I absolutely hate how annie and reiner just live and get away with it in the end after those massacres they did

[@Phantomwolf10]

Great video. I just had one thing and that I don't think gets talked about. Everyone have these ideas about the island could be saved. By hope, by stalling, trading, negotiations grant that I don't think they would work but still. By the time we get to the four-year time skip Eren has very little life left from Ymir's curse. He had at most 4 years to ensure the island survival. If I remember correctly his friends even had the discussion about who would have to eat him in order to continue having the power to protect the island. Imagine that instead of dying hopefully peacefully your friends eat you in order to gain power to protect themselves because you didn't use what resources and time you had better. Just wanted to bring this point up because I never see it in discussions regarding his decisions

[@johnweebfps]

the only reason why they talked is because they share the same goals now, stopping and killing eren, that will lead to the doom of paradis, if its not and still about survival they will still be killing each other, the alliance sides with what marleys goal is, killing eren, they did not band together to talk their differences, but to agree on tha same goal of the enemy, thats the flaw of the story itself

[@lakshyaagrawal8790]

Yes

[@GogetaEiyuuYamcha]

I don't think the alliance failing to properly argue against the rumbling is wrong at all, because the alliance is not supposed to be unambiguously correct. The story would TRULY fail the moment Isayama decides to have a very clear "correct" side, but they aren't, they're acting on their beliefs the same way everyone else is. I think the alliance vs Eren is wonderful and I'd like to hear you talk more about it when the anime continues or if you read the manga. Despite disagreeing with you, this video is exceptionally well made and you explain your points really well. Your points are interesting, too. Love your channel and this video.

[@chryysanth]

Glad you still liked the video even though you disagreed! If I had to make my point a bit more clear I would say that I do think it's a super interesting and cool conflict between the alliance and the jaegerists which doesn't necessarily need a "correct" side, but I still think the reasons for the alliance's disagreement could've been more developed. i think for a lot of viewers the "genocide is wrong" argument isn't enough and see it as naive and out of character for a lot of them, and I think isayama could've fleshed out their position more. +fleshing out their reasoning and plans for solutions doesn't feel the same as isayama choosing a side imo. That's just what I think though, and I definitely look forward to seeing where the story goes from here.

[@realcirno1750]

the story also fails if there's a side that's clearly "wrong" in the sense that what theyre doing is not actually aligned with their beliefs of genocide bad (see: the eventual genocide of eldians that they indirectly caused)

[@TheJotaroKujo]

I see your point but the thing is that the Yeagerists have more arguments and their stance is far more believable. The alliance has nothing but "genocide bad". I do agree that they shouldn't be in the absolute right but they needed more reasons to be allied and make the audience understand what they were fighting for. I mean Pieck made far more sense when she made her fake pledge to Eren than when she "betrayed" him. Even Gabi of all people pointed that out.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

@@TheJotaroKujo The Alliance main goal is stop the genocide of innocent lives who were not part of the war they were experiencing, due to them seeing the outside world themselves. Hange clearly states that she wanted to hide like the rest but she cannot ignore her self-sacrificing nature and what the survey corps stood for, which was protecting humanity. It is ironic how the survey corps were seen as naive and delusional as they claimed they could save humanity from the titans

[@legoboy468]

Idk dude I think a story fails when it shows genocide as good or even as the only option. That’s not how the world works and just propagates the idea that genocide has its place in global politics when it absolutely does not.

[@f2pcoder92]

How can u support the people that say that genocide is wrong and supposedly go against it but by defending everyone else they just further reinforce it for their own people.Have u seen how brutal they were towards the people of eldia that are grasping their chances to survive in a world that wants them dead .where was that bruttality towards the enemies they fought before?.the alliance as a whole is doomed to fail in any case as both results lead to genocide and war either eren succeed and the rest of the world is gone or either they succed and eldians are doomed.

[@MrMagnetron2]

They never liked killing people in the first and got tired of killing people. They still did it but they hated it and would prefer to not kill whenever possible.

[@danielmunoz1275]

Honestly I don't think things have become so "black & white" as you said. There's a good reason why many people do side with the Jeagerists, although Floch and many of them definitively showed a tyrant attitude towards the voluntaries. The Paradis members of the Alliance know that they killed fellow Eldians and friends to stop the Rumbling which makes them sympathetic to the Marleyan Warriors, before that tensions were high like in the stew scene in the forest, everyone is wary of the Marleyan side and even hold grudges except Armin, which already killed innocents and always has approached people and situations from multiple perspectives, and Hange who believes in understanding more than hate (callback to her first chat with Eren in season1). So they didn't receive the Marleyan warriors with open arms and full on forgiveness. It's true that the Alliance doesn't propose an alternative or a plan to what to do after stopping the Rumbling, but I actually find this even more realistic. The truth is that they already had a plan, to destroy the Global Allied Forces that were going to attack the Island with a small portion of the Rumbling and the proceed with the economic, cultural, and technological development of the Island. The reason why Eren did not like this plan, was because there was no guarantee of safety, something very selfish given that Yelena herself says "certainty and guarantees, no nation can claim to have them.". Eren also hated the idea of Historia becoming a titan and keep on the royal lineage to ensure the safety of the Island on the threat of the Rumbling. Honestly, what Eren did was transforming the situation in one that made either genocide for the Eldians or for the rest of the world, when only a lineage was going to be put through the curse of Ymir. Historia was willing to make said sacrifice. Now that Eren took the situation to extremes the Alliance has to act quickly, no regular human being is going to come up with a magical solution in a situation like that, in which time is of the essence to stop the thing that is objectively wrong. There's also that, people who hate the Alliance think that they believe that genocide is fine against Eldians because they are stopping genocide against humanity, but that is completely wrong, they don't agree with any type of genocide period. Each of the members of the Alliance have their own reasons to stopping the Rumbling: Annie wanted to save her father Reiner has many reasons, from saving his mother, not wanting people to suffer (even Eren), and giving Gabi and Falco a future Pieck to honor the orders of her general and the will of her fallen comrades, as well as to save her father Gabi and Falco enter into the saving their families category Magath at first was following his lie of heroism and justice, but end up admitting that all of that was a mistake, and that the world shouldn't be destroyed, but saved and pushed to turn out for the better. He sacrificed himself, even though it was meaningless to save his own country, so it was a selfless act. Levi doesn't regret his actions, he believes that Eren must be corrected, and is focused on keeping his promise to Erwin and killing Zeke. Armin & Hange I explained before Connie wants to honor her mother being a soldier that saves people in need, and right now many innocents need the Rumbling to be stopped. Jean is honoring the memory of Marco, and doing the difficult decision. He's part of the scouts and the scouts want to stop the Rumbling. Mikasa desires for Eren to stop going away from them, she knows he has gone to dark places, but believes that stopping the Rumbling is a step to getting him back.

[@chryysanth]

very good points, i agree with pretty much everything you said honestly. the main thing i'm still hung up on is just the seeming lack of action and a real solid plan during the four years between season 3 and 4. it feels strange to me that that they never even attempted dialogue with any governments other than hizuru, and i think the lack of a pragmatic diplomatic plan towards lasting peace gives viewers who are already leaning towards the rumbling very little to hold onto

[@TheAngryMontage]

@@chryysanth Hizuru was their only connection with the outside world (thanks to zeke) and it was stated in 4x10 that they refused to let eldians talk to other nations to monopolize its resources for themselves (and partially bcuz of zeke aswell)

[@sarubet8725]

Even if they were able to talk to anyone outside the walls that wouldn't make up to the whole "sending titans to make them suffer" thing the marley did.

[@BROWNSMAGIC]

Great video !

[@jacobsonstudiosgoji]

The rumbling took a second to activate and would only take a few days or weeks to wipe out everything. Both hate each other but also don’t want to kill billions of innocents.

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

"...then maybe we can finally have peace and be free from war" Utopic visions like this are what brings about dystopias. Nature is implacable, and humanity's nature is tribalistic and competitive, so there will always be conflict of interests between individuals and groups.

[@chryysanth]

you would rather give up and let the world suffer than even think about how the world could be better; you are a coward.

[@chikenleg9549]

Thx for the explanation, I was scrolling through AOT Reddit and there is so much hate on Armin and the Alliance, I was honestly so confused bc I haven’t even finished season 3 (but have been spoiled for the rest of the series). I appreciate ur more nuanced view of the topic bc I see a lot of very extreme pro-Eren discourse on certain online forums and it’s very disheartening to me

[@chryysanth]

very glad to hear you liked hearing my thoughts! i also feel like there isn't enough good discussion on this series which is the main reason i made this video

[@ACORNyMOFO]

The Paradise natives of the Alliance are self righteous backstabbers.

[@Omega-jg4oq]

They really think the cycle of hatred will end by killing the rest of the world, Humans are humans.. Paradise will eventually fight each other and create another conflict

[@marcoslopez127]

The Alliance is not controversial. The alliance is repulsive on a philosophical, social and honor-based level.

[@chryysanth]

why do you think that

[@marcoslopez127]

@@chryysanth I'll keep it short because there are literally hundreds of books based around countering this type of moral system. Condemning yourself and everyone you love to a nearly assured extermination in favor of the people on their way to exterminate you, who already killed people like your mother and friends, left you starving and in an untenable life circumstance is pathetic. It's what Nietzsche described as nihilistic slave morality found in moral codes like Christianity and Eastern religions. The denial of the self in service of some nebulous moral good, like "we can all get along" or "turn the other cheek" is anti-human. It denies us of the most basic of life impulses, the will to live... even if at the cost of others. From an honor based perspective, it infringes on loyalty, which is the duty owed to those that have earned it. You are betraying the people that you lived and loved in favor of at best unknown masses and at worst the enemy. I would go beyond what I have said and state that the Alliance is evil. It is possessed by an evil moral system. People should rethink siding with such characters.

[@chryysanth]

@@marcoslopez127 the characters in the alliance don't want to let paradis die, they just don't want to kill the rest of the world. they believe they can save themselves without genocide. i should've stated this more explicitly in my video, but here's another video that explains some more if you would like to listen: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mp66mZp3l86abcU

[@marcoslopez127]

It really doesn’t matter what they want as the end result is the extermination of their people. And you can’t even tell me that they were unaware of this being the end result as Hange and others admit that stopping Eren’s rumbling will result in a counterattack from the world that has already expressed that it wants to exterminate all of Paradis. Additionally, they didn’t even have a plan on how to counter this. They just didn’t have the willpower or bravery to go through with Eren’s plan. It’s pathetic and repulsive. The fact that so many AOT fans agree with them truly concerns me. I wouldn't want anyone who agrees with the alliance on my side.

[@chryysanth]

@@marcoslopez127 i don't think the story is really suggesting that hange/armin and the others would sit back and let paradis be destroyed. they already fought earlier in the battle against the invading marleyan army. it seems obvious to me that if they stopped the rumbling and then the rest of the world still wanted to attack them, they would fight back

[@johnnydeals]

Eren pulled an Osimedius and made everyone his enemy so they would have a common enemy.

[@tajwarkhan-zi5bi]

Great video man

[@chryysanth]

thanks!

[@pkavenger9990]

This is why for adults AOT Season 4 is badly written but since most of thier audience is young they don't care about these things, personalities don't change like that. People who let Eren destroy and kill the inside city just to capture Annie are suddenly now care about the humanity outside the walls? its like they went from Sienen to Shonen the power of friendship lol. they changed the theme of AOT. And them teaming up with Riener and Annie is just awful. In my opinion they should have made this show a little bit political where they enter into diplomatic relations with other countries and make Allies and then it should have been like a world war scenario with Assassination, Betrayal etc etc. And ending should be just like how Hitler was defeated in World War II, every nation must have joined Island of Pradise against Marlians and making Paradise a noble super power at the end with Eren using his power to rebuilt the world with Titans help.

[@Omega-jg4oq]

I mean.. even the writer confirmed that Erwin is with the alliance, the Alliance’s main priority is to stop the cycle of hatred and start a new beginning and make peace for humanity on both sides and everyone is fighting for their own reasons.. even if the rest of the world is destroyed.. Paradise will eventually start a new conflict and fight each other because humans are humans.. Eren said himself the cycle will never stop so this path was the best possible solution he saw in his memories for a longer peace for both sides which it’s ended up being true until after thousands and thousands of years

[@pkavenger9990]

@@Omega-jg4oq Completely wrong, If Erwin was alive he would think with his head that no country is allying with Paradise and they see them as targets and they don't listen to reason. Eren did the right thing and Erwin would be on Eren side. The writer of AOT can kiss my ass. He did a terrible job in writting that he made Historia Pregnant for no reason at all or just to save her from Eldian government from making her a titan. How Lame.

[@izul6816]

Fun fact alliance supporters : if there is no rumbling there is no alliance

[@chryysanth]

dunked on! alliance destroyed 😎 damn bro you got em good

[@LiamtheAspie]

It reminds me of Watchmen sometimes you have to do evil things for the greater good. And I think it’s us or them. Right is might. Check out the Milesian dialogue

[@cagdasyavan6628]

For me alliance is piece of shittt.....eren doing the right thing in a world kill or be killed

[@datguy3581]

Personally I’m still Team Alliance. Outside of moral arguments (which I think are valid), I think there are practical arguments for why the Rumbling is not necessary. For one thing, hatred/desire for revenge is not a guaranteed thing. Often it’s a product of ignorance and government propaganda. So it can be changed influenced. Paradis decides that the whole world is guilty before any conflict starts. They instigated the conflict by killing global diplomats. I also think the 50 year plan was pretty good. It essentially makes Paradis the only nuclear power on the globe and gives them the leverage to force negotiations. Given that pretty much every prominent Marleyan character has repented their national hatred of Paradis at some point and that Hizuru seemed completely willing to support Paradis in building an Air Force, it doesn’t seem like Paradis’ position is quite as bad as it seems. And to circle back around to a moral argument, the full Rumbling doesn’t target the people who just hate Paradis. It doesn’t just target soldiers. It targets everyone from every country regardless of profession or country. Not every country presumedly wants to wipe out Paradis but every country is about to get wiped out by Paradis. Additionally, civilian populations didn’t harm Paradis. They shouldn’t suffer for the corrupt actions of their military and government. The decision to team up with Marley’s warriors was justified. Saving as many people possible and ending the war is what’s most important. Additionally working with the enemy allows their enemy to better understand them. Helping save the world has made the world appreciate them better.

[@chryysanth]

I think I agree with pretty much everything you said. The full rumbling is unnecessarily cruel for achieving the desired result and the story itself has shown that Marleyans can change as their prejudices are challenged. I can't but feel when watching the show, though, that the characters could be making a better case themselves. It just hurts me a little that the side I agree with makes arguments which I know won't be convincing enough to a lot of people in the audience. You made some very good points here though and I'll be sure to keep them in my memory for whenever I feel like arguing in the comments again

[@t-ro6176]

What would’ve happened if eren died by gabi’s shot

[@datguy3581]

@@t-ro6176 Being Team Alliance isn't endorsing the Marleyan military. They're still bad. But that doesn't justify genocide of Marley's civilian population. Also I don't think it's fair to be too harsh on Gabi. She (who is a literal child) just watched her best friend get turned titan by the Yeagerists. It's understandable why she took the shot. Once the Rumbling was achieved, Marley was no longer a threat. Eren became the biggest threat to humanity, not Marley. And it doesn't make sense to execute everyone from every country regardless of whether they are at war with Paradis or not.

[@Mengeneful]

"rumbling is not necessary" tell that to destroyed paradis 😒

[@Hk_-tu5vq]

@@chryysanth Isayama did make the characters pont that if peacefull negotiations doesn't work, they will commit with the 50 year plan, if you watch closely, a lot of characters say that throughout the entire season 4, people just didn't pay enough atention and came with the conclusion that "eren was right" and that "it was the only option"

[@jaxjaeger5487]

Lol I just feel bad about all the survey corps members and paradis people watching from above their captain levi and their friends being team mates with the same people that killed them. But I can get behind that but what I hate most abt the ending is how all these side characters died and even Floch and eren got karma but what abt Annie? I bet isayama jerks to annie that must be the reason lol even annies father was saved

[@ronaldzamora8850]

Annie is no different from the other members of Alliance especially survey corps members who also get their hands dirty, heck Armin even has a higher kill count including ordinary citizens than Annie.

[@t-ro6176]

@@ronaldzamora8850 but what consequences did she get tho, the only logical one is her father dying but that didn’t happen.

[@ronaldzamora8850]

@T-ro She did get a consequences to herself like getting trapped into the crystal for 4 years and still conscious while being stucked in the same place without moving or seeing nothing but darkness, even I can't take that and it will surely makes me mad(I can't even take to stay in the house all day for more than two weeks during my quarantine period but hey atleast I still can do activities and chores like watching TV, playing games, surfing net, homebased jobs, eating, drinking, etc.)

[@Ali-pu7ps]

@zoomertalk im a bit confused is it eren against the world since floch died who else is siding with eren now.

[@datguy3581]

The Yeagerists still control Paradis (since they killed all the officers) but they don't have the power to support Eren outside of the island. So its the Alliance + the World v Eren.

[@UmQasaann]

20% of humanity destroyed Paradis for bloodty revenge after the Alliance sabotaged the Rumbling! Lmfao Eren died for nothing. Levi's final salute to Erwin and the rest of his fallen comrades was the biggest fuck you he can give them.

[@Jonas-ob2sh]

To me, the alliance is very similar to Thors from Vinland saga where both stay true to the highest possible ideal (which is harder than it sounds, since it's much easier to give in to your base survival instincts and become yet another Jaegerist) despite the cruelty and unpredictably of the world and it not necessarily being the most optimal choice for their and their people's survival. It's so high ideal that it's no wonder why fans of these shows have hard time comprehending it and think it's flawed writing or something. I'd argue the only reason why we have any semblance of peace in current real world is because of few people like the alliance who sacrificed everything they had and aimed towards that highest possible ideal instead of succumbing to "kill or be killed" way of thinking. Also, Isayama has said through Erwin that "people continue to fight one another until there is less than two people left in the world", so there is no absolute solution to the conflict and using the fact that alliance was unable to provide counter arguments to the rumbling as a criticism is silly because the rumbling is objectively the worst option despite stopping it being possibly the costing all the lives of people on paradis.

[@supergastonh]

Nope. Thors would not let his son nor family be exterminated by the Vikings. This is why the alliance are seen as the cowards and traitors they are and Thors not. Thors defended Thorfin until his last breath

[@SerenityOceania]

Holy fucking shit an actual dumbass who compared Thors to the Alliance. Thors literally went with Floki because he didn't want his village to be massacred. Thors chose to bear arms, despite laying down his arms before, to protect his family. Alliance would be like if Thors helped the Jomsvikings kill his people because violence is wrong (fighting back against the Jomsvikings is violent, so it's wrong)

[@TheAngryMontage]

@@supergastonh Thors hated violence, and avoided it at all costs and he never killed innocents (the alliance were fine with killing soldiers too)

[@phantomdaze2599]

It would make sense since everyone knows the destructive capabilities of the Eldians. So by doing in-fighting they would ultimately be killing themselves. It could be a case of reluctant co-operation kind of thing. It just isn`t really a big plot hole.

[@reinersfattits]

Why do people always highlight Annie and Reiner as these ‘war criminals’ or truly evil, while disregarding Armin whos atrocities were just as bad if not worse. At least you could make the argument that RBA were brainwashed children and Reiner was 12 when he did the awful thing. In a similar sense, people love to villify Marley (and rightfully so, this is not my point) while victimising the Eldian race, ignoring how it was the Eldian people who did the atrocities before them.Every single aot fan seems to be blindly biased towards the protagonist’s side, in a story where the central conflict is how both sides are morally grey, and ignorant to the nationalism occurring in Paradis after the jaegerist take over where the main theme of the story is the cyclical nature of hatred. Aside from the first point, most of this isn’t actually reflective of this video, just an infuriating trend I noticed amongst almost all aot fans

[@chryysanth]

no i totally agree. people are going to be biased towards paradis simply because the story is from their perspective. it's a psychological phenomenon that we tend to judge the actions of ourselves and "our side" as products of environmental factors or "doing what had to be done," while we tend to judge the negative actions of others as if it indicates they are bad as people (stupid, incompetent, evil, etc). a lot of people don't realize this and hate others for doing things that are perfectly understandable. and just to clarify, i don't really think it's useful to judge annie and reiner as evil people; i referred to them that way to reflect others' views towards them. i always try to hope that people like them can become better and live the best life possible, free from hatred and violence

[@jeremybowser7690]

I agree, I have the same criticism. They say genocide is wrong but, they don't present a viable alternative that doesn't get them all killed. Pragmatically speaking, they should have let the rumbling finish then rebuilt the world with different values. That wouldn't be as exciting though, lol.

[@Omega-jg4oq]

Even if Eren destroyed the world.. Paradise will eventually start a new conflict and fight each other and let alone if the power of Titans are all in one place, they might as well destroyed themselves.. humans are humans

[@jeremybowser7690]

@@Omega-jg4oq yes probably, but the immediate threat is all of humanity against the Eldians. You can't die eventually if you die right now. Also, titans all in one place creates mutually assured destruction between factions or an unbeatable regime.

[@randomusername3873]

​@@Omega-jg4oqand that would have been a lot more meaningfull than eren randomly stopping and becoming braindead

[@Omega-jg4oq]

@@randomusername3873 honestly, Eren is not even supposed to be braindead after the character development he had and even tho he used to be one in the previous seasons and even if his mental state is at its worst right now, everything he ever did and every fight he fought and every pain and loss he felt.. everything just because he was a Slave, it’s like Iseyama hates Eren and wants to screw up his character and took what the fans says and directly put it in the show lmao “Slave to freedom” seriously, I know everyone maybe is slave to something but Eren actually saying that is such BS

[@rebertosmith9524]

another thing to consider is that in any realistic scenario the scouts have a 0% chance of stoping eren and are essentially committing all this murder for nothing, and even if they somehow succeed all they are doing is perpetuating the cycle and it will still be the same problem as before where one of the sides needs to be eliminated for the hatred to end. also they all had no problem following erwins plan to have thousands of innocent civilians die just to capture the female titan back in season 1, but now of course when the plot needs them to be morally just they completely flip and act like nothing happened back when erwin was leading and pretend like annie dint feed macro to a titan and turn one of their comrades into a fucking yoyo. their only other plan was the 50 year plan where they would only use the rumbling as a deterrent to ward off any attack. for all we know that could have been what was happening and when marley attacked eren activated the rumbling to go with that plan yet for some reason they still are against it even though that was their own plan.

[@homingice6444]

The problem to is we have to care for everyone else on the other side. Yet, the author shot himself in the foot with Annie. We dont get to know her enough because magic. Reiner is who I care for but its really just him. Sure, you can say Gabi but the thing with Gabi. Is she killed Sasha, had to go through an arc and finally realize her mistakes. Which is great. Except, the audience has to be willing to forgive Gabi. They have to care about Gabi. You throw that care all into the trash when she killed Sasha and continued to give everyone else hell over the fact. Now you have a situation, where people hate her too much. Which backfires on the attempt to humanize her. Its a careful line you have to cross. The Alliance for the most part try to come off as ooc, in my opinion. Hey Levi you know the guys that sent Titan A to kill your little sister and all of your friends? You know that kid that came from somewhere else and uh killed Erwin? You wanna save all those people that ordered him to do it? Hey, Armin I heard you had to lose your grandfather to a failed military operation. Something bout famine. Anyways, wanna save the people that did it? To me it should have just boiled down to genocide. Its flawed and both sides have their reasons for it, as you said. This forces the community to discuss which side was right or wrong, to show us in the real world. We dont need to get to this point. The message would have hit harder. "I didnt want Falco to die because of x,y,z." "I dont want Eren to fail because of x,y,z." The alliance seems like a cop out and that Isayama made everyone out of character in order to get them to work together.

[@freazeezy]

I would disagree that the story didn't present an argument against the rumbling. the partial rumbling would be a gamble but with the military targets of marly and co destroyed it would guarantee at least a few decades of peace to work from. The big point that a few characters express is that if it had to be paradi or the world by numbers alone it would be better if paradi gave up. And think about it from the paradi characters perspective as scouts. Their core belief is to give your heart for humanity. Dying for humanity was something they all believed in. Levi seeing Annie kill scouts again must have been something though. I think that was a moment that justified the time to explain it. Levi is defined by his selfless dedication to his comrades. But he has personally killed comrades for humanity. That's likely why he sat back. That and his desire to fulfill Erwin's last command. but it had to have been a MOMENT. sad it was left to imagination.

[@paulster185]

Why not conquer and then dissolve Marley, split it between nations that were conquered by Marley before? It wasn't even discussed, I guess because it would've made to much sense.

[@Emerardo]

Great video

[@joebejjani3579]

Diplomacy was possible. But it would have been a very hard story to tell and isayama didn't want to tell us this story.

[@penanddice8206]

I don't think the story was TRYING to give the Alliance a justification for stopping genocide that wasn't entirely about ethics: from the perspective of Paradis, there isn't one. In the end, the Marleyan characters of the alliance want to stop the Rumbling for obvious reasons, but the Paradisian characters are simply adhering to the core beliefs and tenets in which they'd been fighting for from the start, before they knew anything about the truth of the world: Of freedom for humanity. To the Yeagerists, only THEIR PEOPLE matter. To the outside world, again, only THEIR PEOPLE, or NON-ELDIAN people, mattered. Both sides took up arms against who they'd perceived to be their enemy, and this is a perpetuated conflict that is incapable of ending. Once there is an aggressor, there is a cycle endlessly. Not even letting yourself get killed would end it, because the people that killed you would go on to feud with others after your death. So it makes no sense just to lie down and die. After all, if you don't fight, you can't win. It's a sad, circular affair. The thing is, I don't personally think there was a way out for Paradis. I think it's meant to look like there MIGHT be, simply because they never speak up at the world conference, and Eren escalates things before they can properly approach global diplomacy... but the fact remains that the world had been seated in prejudice against Eldians for literally hundreds of years for reasons outside of the Eldian people's control. Even if this could be undone, (which it more than likely could not), and we remember that the titans are weapons that can be used by any nation, they still have to be racially Eldian people. It's a curse that spreads, a tangible one, and a very real threat. As a race, the Eldians ARE inherently dangerous, even if they are not inherently evil. I'd say they're dangerous even in a way that is unlike the possibility of violence in normal humans. It might take an injection of formula to transform a normal Eldian into a mindless titan, but a random baby could suddenly end up with the Colossal Titan or the Founder out of nowhere if the current inheritor died, and god knows what might happen depending on who or where that baby is. It could be a global catastrophe. But do these innocent people deserve to be ghetto'd, persecuted, hated? Fuck no they don't, but it's a natural consequence of being an actual example of the "other." A perfect scapegoat, so to speak. The story simply gives us these people's perspective from the beginning, and retroactively applies these caveats to their situation halfway through, after they'd already gained our sympathy. That's why people get so angry about the Alliance choosing to forsake their own people: not because they made the objectively wrong choice. Now, that's not to say I think this is a flaw of Isayama's writing. In fact, I think it's an unrecognized strength. Titans are a metaphor for a lot of things: the capability of violence, weapons of mass destruction, fear of invaders, fear of the unknown, and racial guilt atop it all after the basement reveal. From this perspective, I think the story was never moving toward a proper justification for the island of Paradis to exist, nor was it either trying to explain why people stuck in this hellhole of a circumstance should be killed. It was all just a commentary on the nature of freedom, oppression, war, prejudice, and violence, and how all of these things beget one another. After all, anybody could have fallen into that tree, but it came about because someone instigated a conflict in which the aggressor fought, and the victim ran. Was the victim supposed to just sit down and die? All of this is to say, there doesn't need to be a justification for the characters to want to stop the Rumbling that isn't a purely moral one. Contextually, they have to live in a world that hates them, so to rise above that, they chose to save it. The cycle of violence would have continued no matter what they did, (and as we see by the end of the manga, it does) so by adhering to their initial beliefs, they can live (and die) believing they did the right thing -- so they didn't have to live every day of their lives, afterward, knowing they could've done something, but didn't. In other words, knowing they lost the resolve to fight for what they had believed in. It's useless to pick sides in this story as a member of the audience, because the point transcends that. (The ending of the story introduces a few other key themes about the nature of freedom itself, but that's a discussion for another day). It's fascinating to me to see people so angry about the ending as a condemnation for Eren's actions. That says a lot about us, doesn't it? If you give a believable justification for violence, many, people will cling to it. Like the trolley equation on a global scale. There's a reason that's such a hotly debated thing. At the very least, I appreciate Attack on Titan for being a mainstream work of fiction that gets people thinking as much as it does. That's worth its weight in gold.

[@MrMagnetron2]

"That says a lot about us, doesn't it? If you give a believable justification for violence, many, people will cling to it." That's probably the best way I've heard someone describe it

[@bri7547]

Damn what a good take on the entire thing 🫡

[@kendivedmakarig215]

Eren didn't escalate out things. Remember that Marley and the rest of the world have decided to attack Paradis already in the courtroom before Wilñy Tybur declare war. Eren is even the one who seek out the peace option first but he switched to rumbling immediately when he found out there is no alternatives.

[@paulster185]

​@@kendivedmakarig215 It feels like gaslighting. Marley declares genocidal war against Paradis (after admitting that Paradis was peaceful all along!) to thunderous applause of other nations... but Eren afterwards somehow escalates things? All deaths are on Marley and their supporters, you don't get start war of extermination and than cry foul. "But I meant YOU to be exterminated, not us!" It was *proportional* response.

[@digger6843]

Because they just finished the mission of the Warrior canidats

[@Godzillagamer1577]

yes guys peace is amazing guys

[@cagdasyavan6628]

Is simply the cycle of hatred will not end till one side genocide so eren decide to protect eldian starting the rumbling alliance actually choose their people genocide......just betray their homeland...

[@temidiretoogun837]

⁠While I partially agree with you, and part of me, the idealistic and hopeful side wants to ally with the alliance. Reality is brutal. At the end of the day, it isn’t a good or bad type thing. Hero or villain, white or black doesn’t apply here. It’s do or don’t. This isn’t me agreeing with or supporting Eren, but trying to construct his POV in my view. Options: Do: Destroy the rest of the world and live with infinite guilt of the millions/billions you slaughtered, and fulfill the expectation and fear of being a devil instead of trying to be better. Result: Family, loved ones, descendants live, albeit with a stain. Don’t: Don’t and be hopeful in human nature that the rest of the world won’t just start another war like a decade later after he’s dead. As if grievances just disappear and forgiveness is that easy. Place an unsure bet that puts the lives of your families and loved ones at an interesting level of risk😅 Again, no shade here. Just tryna construct a POV to explain (not justify, but EXPLAIN) his actions. Explanations can be unreasonable too. I’m open to opinions

[@SerenityOceania]

My god, I saw you got spoiled in the comments below. Another Anime-Only falls 😭

[@goddesshoneymoon]

serenity!!! ly

[@karakarma8061]

I personally think that's kinda the point to make genocide is wrong enough to want to stop it because it is I think the main thing that's missed to me is that we didn't get enough time to fully flush that out for each member showing properly why they should be allowed in with such a mountain of corpes behind them but even as yelena stated your all war criminals in some way and stopping the rumbling won't make them automatic heros either conflict will continue in some way that's just how the world is you can't stop violence which is said by yelena something they all I think understand but even so they can all unanimously agree its wrong to allow the rumbling to continue something I think jean best showed properly the most so yeah it is bland that genocide is wrong is the only reason you have to want to stop it and join together to do so regardless of your background but what other reason do you need to be honest to be asked to help them stop something beyond just morally wrong it might not help them if they do stop it because people will still remain and remember this day that this happen but they'll have to wonder why did they do it and at least actually make a exception for once to hear them out why the people they hated the most chose to risk everything and stop it and hopefully finally start down a road to peace in some way even if it's not permanent and let's be honest nothing is but for a time peace can be shown it's possible

[@diobrando6729]

Genocide is wrong is not the main reason alliance came together so easily. They came together so easily is because they are all terrorist, that's why they understand what it's like to be child soldier and to be a terrorist. the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims This is Google defination of terrorism. What berthold, Reiner and Annie did in first episode fits the description. Mikasa, Levi and others helped eren to do same in start of season 4. That's also terrorism. Don't forget Armin basically dropping nuke. That's why they understand each other, how it feels to kill children and innocent to save their own country. That's the main reason alliance understood each other well. Plus they were all friends before in training camps.

[@keralindsay3553]

I know Im late to the argument, but here my biggest problem with the whole thing. Everyone denounces Eren for comitting mass genocide, because genocide is wrong. Yes. Its wrong, but in the way Isayama has set up this particular story, all other options will end up with the mass genocide of the Eldians. So when I see people argue that Eren had no right to do it, WITHOUT a better option, they are also saying that the Eldian people should just let the world commit genocode on them. Because like it or not, had Eren not done what he did, that is what would have happened. So take out Erens personal reason fpr doing it, and logically tell me what other option would have saved both sides within the confines of what Isayama layed out?

[@patgray5402]

The alliance didn't have an argument against the Jaegerists, because THERE WAS NO ARGUMENT AGAINST THE JAEGERISTS.

[@Sarvegas]

Unfortunately neither side wipe out completely. Garbage ending if world end peacefully in this dark story.

[@2k3d]

Im not with the alliance but if eren completed the rumblig, the titans wouldnt die out and the titan curse would still exist. Eren would eventually die and so would armin. Eren is not the type to let his friend die so his country could live, hed find another way or sacrifice himself. And if mikasa could work up the courage to kill him during the rumbling, she wouldnt be able to after since only she and eren can free ymir, aka freeing the titan curse

[@nandoman4769]

What I don't understand is why does Eren have to wipe out the whole world to achieve victory? In the last episode of part 2 he completely wipes out the whole worlds combined navy. Why not just use The rumbling to defeat any military opposition and then use that time to advance Elida's technology? Eren's attempts to kill the whole world have now doomed Eldia beyond any hope. What does survival matter if in a few decades everything you know, love, and do will be completely erased from existence. Your future sons and daughters, grandson's and and granddaughter's. All doomed to a painful and pitiful end because of your rash and unnecessarily cruel decisions.

[@chryysanth]

this is a cool opinion that i haven't seen commented before and i honestly i mostly agree. i totally think what paradis should do is defeat the current military opposition and continue attempts at diplomacy (which up to this point they've barely done at all). however, the reason why *eren* thinks he needs to do the rumbling is because he doesn't think the rest of the world will ever want peace with paradis. he has no hope that the war will end with a mutual agreement, and so he wants to destroy the world and end the cycle of violence that way. hope this cleared that up for you!

[@Kerubu]

I think the reason is because Eren can see the future so ironically he's a slave to his own future memories. The fact that he can't see any memories of a future attack titan probably didn't help with his mentality either.

[@kendivedmakarig215]

The extra pages of Manga are the answer to your question. 80 percent rumbling is a partial rumbling and the result, Paradis people were exterminated thanks to Alliance.

[@chryysanth]

i should probably read the manga. but i don't really want to do that Other AOT videos i used as clips in this: Euthanasia Alternate Ending kzbin.info/www/bejne/o32om4maeN98nqc Eren Brainwashing a Horse kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYHNnnSGh6-HmqM

[@SerenityOceania]

Wait til the controversial ending comes. It's gonna be beautiful

[@chryysanth]

@@SerenityOceania at this point i'm almost just looking forward to what makes the ending so controversial lol

[@greatvidznaga3183]

AOT had made all the youtubers as a detective agent coz all of them are busy finding out meaning and foreshadowing !!!! Like if you agree with me 😂

[@karrock8023]

I was originally siding with Eren until he announced he was going to destroy the world and found myself agreeing with the alliance that there should be another way other than genocide. I love your point on while it’s unrealistic to just tell both sides to stop fighting, we should educate others who have a close mind to think outside the box and realize the actual cause of war. This was a great analysis!

[@chryysanth]

really cool to hear how you felt like you switched sides as the story progressed! thanks for the comment

[@smelllikeyourmomspirit7394]

which way? give me

[@centipedekid9824]

Your interpretation of the alliance is flat out wrong in the story. Diplomacy isn't an option. Paradis is the bad guy to the rest of the world simple as that. They don't even deserve a seat at the table to argue for themselves. According to the story Paradis never had an option besides the rumbling.

[@merciless9110]

Genocide is bad enough to want to stop it no matter what, it's not necessary for Isayama to say explicitly that Eren is wrong and he must be stopped, and they did have options, they had the 50 years plan, a risky plan but it might work to prevent global genocide. It's not that hard bro... cmon. I hope the next episode in the next year opens your mind

[@chryysanth]

bro i literally said i support the alliance in this video, i'm just trying to explain why people might come away with a different conclusion. the points you raised are good reasons to be against the jaegerists

[@SerenityOceania]

@@chryysanth Ending defenders are going to gaslight you. Don't worry, it's normal around here. Manga ending was controversial for a reason.

[@terrencemoldern2756]

Keyword... “MIGHT” work No the 50 years plan is garbage and has been debunked several times. The idea that the world would just “freeze” in time while paradise technology advances is stupid. By the time paradise makes its first tank. Marley will be throwing their first NUKE over... the world isn’t gonna sit back and wait. Also just how would the rumbling work partially? Do they only attack Marley Military installments? Cause guess what? Paradise isn’t Marley... they don’t know where every military base or facility is and the idea that a partially rumbling with any number of giant titans would be that precise is laughable. Even a partial rumbling would scorch and burn most of Marley to the ground. Even with a plan to try and target military and all. The rumbling is just to big... Plus even if they just do that. Literally the rest of the world declared war on paradise. Even if they did Marley in. The other nations would try and attack anyways. Fear is a motivating factor. Not a depressing one.

[@mihaa94sky]

And what happens after 50 years? They just get nuked, like they did in the last panels anyway. They had no other options.

[@CABRALFAN27]

@@y94r45 Bad (Arguably deliberately bad) fan translations like "Thank you for becoming a mass murderer" might give that message, but I don't know how you could look at... Pretty much the entire Rumbling/Alliance Arc, and say that the author wasn't portraying genocide as bad thing.

[@Ali-pu7ps]

Im not a manga reader! People saying team alliance its not that simple! Eren being a founding titan has seen what marley has done in the past and as the show goes on you see that he becomes more subconscious with peoples views on eldia. He was born and raised on paradis island he didnt have a father/mother figure. Ultimately i want the show to end in peace but hate how people are so quick to judge on eren.

[@datguy3581]

Having a tragic backstory doesn't justify genocide

[@K663-j1k]

I understand the alliance. However, I will side against them.

[@chryysanth]

why

[@K663-j1k]

@@chryysanth I am obligated to defend my home and family.

[@battse7718]

Interesting video but sadly it’s obvious you also missed the point. Alliance could not offer another solution because in universe they have none. So is story wise because Eren is representation of hatred, and the rumbling is logical conclusion to cycle of hatred. Because logically the level of destruction comes to a point that it is rumbling level destructive. In real world its nuke, in aot its eren. The difference is in real life everyone could have nukes and not just a single founding. And why didn’t US dropped nuke on its enemies before they had chance to build a nuke? Maybe Genocide is wrong is actually sound and good argument.

[@moonshelter3448]

The rare video essay about AOT I liked. Actually one of a few. Because you've pointed at the main issue without any prelude. I respect your more neutral point of view because my point of view is that AOT is a fascistic propaganda masterpiece with lazy ending but Isayama wanted that ending as it was somehow smoothing the character of Eren. And so there's an easier explanation on the alliance's failure. Isayama never wanted to really escape the rumbling scenario. It was his ultimate goal. And it goes well along with the story of Japan. That's it. The real story of Japan is so disgusting that you can only find out more on your own if you wish. You have that critical thinking thing. Thanks.

[@pkavenger9990]

This is so similar to Israel and Palestianian situation. to us Israel is Marliyans and Palestinians are the Paradise, how Muslims are hated for the false propaganda by west that they are terrorists, 9/11 was just like the "Declaration of war" propaganda in AOT. And what is happening right now, I guess we will have to declare war as well and become Eren.

[@centipedekid9824]

It's the opposite historically Israel was Paradis the cycle is now in their favor. Just like it went from Eldia to Marley then back to Eldia.

[@iiTzKaran_YT]

Stop relating fictional stories with real life ones, read facts

[@randomusername3873]

I missed the part where the entire world is trying to destroy palestine for no reason

[@UmQasaann]

Israel is the aggressors, free Palestin! 🇵🇸

[@pkavenger9990]

​@@centipedekid9824 Did Muslims killed jews? no instead when Jews were killed and persecuted all around the Christian countries like Italy Russia etc they took refuge in Ottoman Empire. And after World war II it was Palestine that gave Jews the shelter to refugees. Facts.

[@joshholleran9005]

Ok im sorry but.....this wish at the end of the video....thats the answer that has NEVER been answered. Youre looking at it all through a very fixed lens and that lens is hindsight. Also understanding things from a larger perspective and getting out of your own head is a very SLIM VIEW on everything in aot. Its so much more then this surface level realization and understanding. I appreciate your video regardless and i just wanted to state my point! Thank you for a great video!

[@chryysanth]

i don't really understand what you're criticizing here, could you elaborate? i would love to hear your thoughts more fully

[@kingslayerx1716]

Subbed at 8k

[@Horonji]

What's with these long ass comments?

[@chryysanth]

people are trying to make proper arguments 👍

[@niloticnya]

i don’t think Eren is morally gray, and he’s not an antihero. he didnt hurt a few people, he’s hurting the entire globe including people & their history, wildlife, and plants. he was stuck in a difficult situation, but causing genocide to protect his people is still selfish. i don’t think that Isayama should’ve offered a real solution, because the series was meant to show how conflicts make people feel trapped with no escape

[@Light12187]

So you mean if your neighbors try to kill your family with 0% chances of negotiation and you have the power to protect them then you will side with those people and kill your own family?

[@satyamshukla3764]

​@@Light12187 No. But I will deal with those who will attack me as defense and not massacre the children and elderly who didn't attack me and probably had no say in the conflict.

[@smelllikeyourmomspirit7394]

@@satyamshukla3764 those children will be growing up in the same brainwashing environment to fuel to hatred towards Paradis again.

[@TheWinters814]

Thank you for talking about this. I completely agree with your points and I wish that reasoning was better fleshed out- all this to say that I just think Iseyama (probably intentionally) wrote himself into a wall that he used Eren to break (pun intended) and wrap up the story because he just wanted to be done. Iseyama designed everything around Eren achieving the Rumbling one way or another because in the end, everyone was out of time and Eren had his own goals. The outside world despise Eldians, Paradis'/Survey Corps' lack of technology and diplomatic footing, Willy Tybur declaring war, and, ultimately, Zeke was the last noble blood titan shifter at the end of his lifespan that could access the coordinates with Eren. As we see, no way was Eren going to continue the cycle of feeding Zeke to Historia and her kids and while not specifically stated, he probably wasn't going to bet on an unknown-outcome, attempted diplomacy in the face of all the hatred he's seen. So the Rumbling was inevitable for Eren whether he liked it or not. And Iseyama had to deal with how the Alliance would react to this issue in the least amount of time possible. Now we could argue how the necessity of moralities can be a key part in deciding larger stake humanitarian risks, re-igniting the silver lining that the Alliance can bring, but as the video states, there wasn't enough fleshing out for the Alliance in general in this mad-dash towards an ending.

[@datguy3581]

Feeding one bloodline of parents to their kids is far better than killing million of people outside the walls and hundreds of people within them. There is always uncertainty. That's part of life. The Rumbling didn't have a certain outcome. I don't think that's a good argument for genocide.

[@alfredgamerzzgamers3970]

world war 2

[@user-lh3rc3ss1y]

ADL called isayama, "if you ever want a hollywood live action aot movie, stop the rumbling and destroy eren and everything he stood for"

[@alfredgamerzzgamers3970]

@@user-lh3rc3ss1y antijewitism

[@Joebilly15684]

​@@user-lh3rc3ss1yshut it down

[@Mike20we]

Well man, you keep bringing up the war criminals things up when it is probably your weakest complaint of them all. Dude everybody is a war criminal in the alliance and that's the point. Our guys probably have killed way more than Reiner and Annie. Armin alone nuking that port killed more than Annie and Reiner probably combined along with Mikasa and stuff. All of your questions at the end of the video are also absolutely useless as they start thinking about that when Eren is actively killing everyone and is painting them in an even worse way and actually making them devils. Isayama truly revealed the uninformed and illiterate in his fandom by actually choosing to have the characters go against Eren die to him literally squashing any of the efforts they would wanna do with diplomacy and stuff. Isayama doesn't need to present an alternative at this time as his characters character guides them to being diametrically opposed to the rumblings and killing of civilians and children no matter the consequences. He can focus on that at an later date in the story and maybe prove you right after Eren is taken care of and the characters have actually fulfilled what they are destined to do by how they are written.

[@chryysanth]

i brought up the complaints about annie and reiner cause i'm just trying to explain the controversy around it. i personally support the alliance and i am cool with them being friends. i personally think punishing them or something in these circumstances would be weird and bad. but not everyone is understanding enough to accept them immediately, especially when not that much time is devoted specifically to it, and so the criticism exists and i covered it in the video. and about the rumbling, i think i might agree that the alliance should stop it even if there is no way for them to survive, just based on moral reasoning alone. but not everyone has the same morals; some think that we should preserve ourselves over the rest of the world, and without a clear path towards having both sides survive, the criticism exists.

[@Compufighter]

if you like political thrillers, read batman the white knight.

[@JohnnyBoy7267]

I dont think it matters what Levi thinks seeing the Female titan killing again at this point or any of that stuff from other characters because they are on a time limit and characters in that kind of situation don’t have time to talk about things like that. I mean Eren is literally about to stomp on every man, woman, child and animal on the planet .. i mean what do you even do in a situation like that ?? Especially if you are the only group of people who are capable of actually doing something against a nightmarish situation like that. It all comes down to this, do you sit on your island and just let it happen or do you try to do something. Good video btw and don’t read the manga ! Just wait for the anime trust me it’s much better that way.

[@erenyeager3068]

Your logic is stupid asf ofc you sit on your island and spend time with your family the rest of the world was trying to kill paradis including men,women, and children and eren just beat them to the punch the world asked for this not eren what do you people not get?

[@mistake1197]

Don't listen to this man. Eren was right all along the end of manga proves it. Peace was never an option.

[@worldofticktalkers1773]

Instead of the stupid ending we got the anime should have ended with 100℅ rumbling Mikasa being the person ymir waiting for and the tragic love of ymir is last minute changes to make eren look good Not a genocidal maniac but it made him look like genocidal maniac and a slave to his destiny As much as I like erenmika the anime was never about love Or instead after rumbling eren should have died by grief for what he did and there eren mikasa could have had their moment Also if ymir was really acting on her own and eren was moving forward She fucking has the power to control all Eladians why not stop the alliance About hating the alliance it was unnatural And all I got was genocide is bad so we will work together So much asspules in the story Suddenly Falco being flying titan annie who didn't wanted to fight now she is ready Erens friends are like I know he is doing it for us but we want to save humanity so we will kill our friend A friend who became a weapon to fight the titans and saved us all this time Still I was with alliance even after all the cringe plot armour and what not But the ending panels tested my patience and I couldn't take it Even after all this paradise got destroyed So I came to conclusion that never ever call a story anime great before it ends I am not satisfied with the ending Another way to show that human conflict will never end Just have civil war in paradise and there we go again Now it feels like yams got mad at fans hating his ending he made it even worse with those 8 panels

[@rogerizzer7837]

I didn't watch the full video yet but why is there a mindset of Reiner and Annie having to be punished after the events of season 1-3. They already suffered the loss of two of their comrades, plus the responsibility for military operations should at belong to Marley themselves. If a soldier during war is told to do something against their own will there is the risk of that soldier getting killed, so it's not fully the soldier's fault if they do something bad since they were forced to do it due to circumstances of war.

[@elizawingfield]

You have not read the Attack on Titan manga. You do not have all the information required to understand the themes you are talking about. As a result, you’re missing a lot. The main theme of Attack on Titan is that conflict is inevitable. Why do fans hate the alliance? Because they identify to closely as Yaegerists. It’s that simple. Snd oh, but the way, the rumbling is not genocide. It’s mass murder. There’s a difference. Genocide is targeted against a specific group or groups. Killing all the Eldians would be genocide. Randomly killing everyone outside (and a few inside) the walls including Eldians living in other parts of the world is simply mass murder.

[@datguy3581]

The main theme is not that conflict is inevitable. That's a misreading of the text. The theme is that while there will always be some conflict, there will always be hope due to those who fight for understanding and peace. And while war might be inevitable, is won't be constant. ***spoilers alert for the manga*** The Alliance secured over a century of peace through diplomacy. It's true that war started up again later but that's not the point. The point is that an entire generation of people got to be born, live, and die in peacetime because of the heroics of people like Armin and Hange. Hange, I believe, embodies Isayama's views of hope for humanity. What Eren's doing is genocide. He's attempting to kill off a specific group: the outside world. It's a big group but it's still a group of people. He's killing people based on the fact they are not his people. He does not view Eldians' outside of the island as his people. He's killing everyone not from his home country.

[@erathorsmash6941]

It honestly worries me how many people watch or read all of AOT and end up supporting a global genocide plan. The series begins with watching the last bastion of humanity facing attempted genocide by monsters, and we fully support their attempts to stop that process. But when we see that its actually a conflict between humans, and see that the other side are just flawed humans like everyone else, suddenly genocide is the right option? Do people realise wars happen in real life, but we still feel genocide is wrong? Imagine if WW2 ended with the axis powers being completely wiped off the face of the earth? So to all the rumbling supporters, I think its complete hypocrisy and it amazes me that you can go through this whole show and think genocide makes sense. By that logic, you should support Marley's plan to genocide one dangerous island to protect the world. Its just that people are more attached to the Paradis characters than the Marley characters. You're all as indoctrinated as Gabi, and you don't even see it 😂

[@centipedekid9824]

Sorry but I'm on the side of the Yaegerist the only proposed solution for Paradis was the rumbling. The alliance has no plans they are based purely in feeling like it's wrong. Which doesn't really matter. It may be wrong but it's a necessary evil for their survival.

[@erathorsmash6941]

@@centipedekid9824 This concept exists in real life and has existed in moments of history, that's my point. Groups exist that believe that genocide is their only solution because their opponents want to wipe them out entirely. Its a sound argument in some cases, eliminate all enemies and you remove any fear of future reprisal. But we can look at that from an objective standpoint and still say it's wrong! You can't just remove morality from your judgement. It's also fighting fire with fire. Are you against Marley's plan to wipe out Paradis and the Eldians for good? Is that wrong? If Marley's plan is evil, wrong or unjustified, why isn't the Yaegerists' plan? You can't support the Yaegerist call for genocide without also accepting the rationale behind their opponents wanting to wipe them out. So are you just pro genocide if there's a good reason behind it? And I'm not talking about the rumbling being used to wipe out the global fleet, because that's not a genocide option. Even Armin supported that idea.

[@centipedekid9824]

@@erathorsmash6941 I fully understand why Marley and the world want to wipe out Paradis. I put it like this if I was born in Marley or the rest of the world I'd be with destroying Paradis. But I view it as a Eldian from Paradis. I see it as the best option for both sides regardless of how evil it is.

[@erathorsmash6941]

@@centipedekid9824 So you're pro genocide if there's a good reason behind it. That's fair enough, but we just won't see eye to eye on that I'm afraid.

[@centipedekid9824]

@@erathorsmash6941 I see it as ensuring the survival of my people. Makes it more palatable. But maybe it's a good thing we don't see eye to eye on this. It just means that if we ever went to war I'd win purely because I'm willing to go further to win.