Why is US military shipbuilding in a crisis? Explained via the Constellation Frigate example.

[@Binkov]

On LCS being crap and Constellation being US Navy's answer to China kzbin.info/www/bejne/gnvSgqp_qbaajNE Newsflash: US Navy will buy up to $5.6 billion worth of Italian frigates (and will make them uglier) kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKakZZSgpainprM New threat to the US? China's navy in overdrive. (Newsflash) kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXuxeGeArqybb68

[@TheX-Man07]

Italy vs Spain

[@lucianorosarelli-xr5lr]

italy and fincantieri sold out kzbin.info/www/bejne/moCXqZaoo7aFqs0 off the shelf of corse 'cose you can't be able change your shoes to yourself

[@dtsai]

Was is sabotaged by CCP?

[@jaredyoung5353]

Free Market Capitalism ruined America

[@cerberus276]

Do you realize that the US can actually afford a navy that can project power anywhere in the world, without using nuclear weapons? Super butthurt these days aren't you.

[@jaydurych]

Helpful acquisition tip for the Navy brass: if you take your “off-the-shelf solution,” and make major changes to it, it is no longer a “off-the-shelf solution.”

[@magdovus]

@@jaydurych You may need to simplify it further. Still too complicated.

[@exharkhun5605]

This is an extension of not-invented-here syndrome and that's always company wide culture problem. Of course the brass is responsible, not denying that. I know this from IT work, if you spot this culture anywhere, it's everywhere. If facilities demands custom mixed paints, then the finance departments has custom printed letterheads at 100 times the price of normal paper, all the doors open the wrong way, the power sockets aren't in reach of the furniture and projects will literally never finish because of a constant stream of customizations and customizations of customizations.

[@missk1697]

Constellation didn't even leave dockyard, yet it already managed to sink its first opponent - the navy's public image.

[@unnagathaking]

Why American navy lost its ability to build cheap and easily maintained ships?

[@pooppoop9112]

Corruption

[@Pnaraasi94]

@@unnagathaking When the USSR collapsed all of the West got into its head this collective idea that the era of large wars is over. Instead, there would be all kinds of smaller scale conflicts, for which large, highly capable but expensive ships would be sufficient. Production and war-time attrition were no longer factored in. The East did not fall into this fallacy. The same problem affects land-forces as well, and even air forces.

[@39MinuteMan]

I'm working on a major aerospace project and this video basically covers all issues that we have there. Badly defined requirements, lack of skilled workforce and engineers, bad initial estimate of amount of work required....

[@thomaszhang3101]

Have they tried outsourcing it to Chinese shipyards yet?

[@Jay-om8gr]

Nope but may be bringing in koreans to build and run old shipyards from back in the day

[@joyfullife9070]

Only countries, as of now, they can keep up with Chinese manufacturing outputs with decent technology are S Korea or Japan.

[@redhairdavid]

No sir, I'm sure that part of the boat is supposed to made out of C4. Just ignore that detonator looking thing by that radio, nothing to worry about

[@hansudowolfrahm4856]

Navy is doing a spending speedrun so no, they must waste money fast that's their task

[@alexnderrrthewoke4479]

Or Russia ​@@joyfullife9070

[@mattbrown5511]

I worked in a Naval Shipyard for 5 years. During that time, I worked on several classes of USN ships and the US Coast Guards (at the time) new blue water cutter. If my department was lucky, we would be using blueprints that were only 3 versions behind the newest versions approved. Because the engineering department was constantly revising blueprints, the same job was being done 4 or 5 times, sometimes more than that. I literally saw tradesmen getting paid $25-$30 per hour (2005-2010 era) to sit on a bucket waiting on finalization of plans or a revised building schedule. The amount of wasted time and taxpayer funds was astounding. America has become absolutely incompetent to manufacture just about any war material, vehicle, weapon system, etc.

[@spaghettigod43]

Yaknow what I can't help but wonder? How were ships being built so fast over a 100 years ago? Sure there definitely was less tech and tolerances were greater. But there was no scheduling software, just experienced crew leaders that didn't take bullshit and knew what to do when to do it. Plans were definitely detailed but it's not as if they were 3D models that could be easily revised and edited. Nope everything by hand, with a lot of design decisions made organically by the tradesmen. Somehow they had by far less resources, not just in high tech but even stuff like hydraulics and cranes. Yet somehow they were just capable of building good ships on or ahead of schedule. Just immaculate expertise.

[@TheBooban]

Not only. Subways, trains, bridges, any infrastructure; nothing can be built on time or within budget.

[@shifyist]

As a welder i can tell you exactly why. The shipyards are posting ads looking for welders and not calling anyone back, its the same scam they use on zip recruiter and other sites to act like they are hiring and play the “we cant find anyone” card so they get more money and times

[@GainingDespair]

It's a buddy buddy club, you have to know someone to get in really. Father worked as a welder in the Baltimore shipyards most of his life, younger brother followed the same path as well. You really have to be in the know, and the best way to get in the door is work as many places as possible. While my father worked in Baltimore most of his life he never missed the chance to travel to a different shipyard for work, they often paid for certifications, you meet new people higher up, and you work there for 6-8 months as a fill in. Move on to the next, than you can show you have worked at x shipyards, you are willing to travel, you have every certification they could possibly want and in the end you move up the ladder. It's really one of those entry level with 10 years experience kinda things unfortunately.

[@svenrio8521]

Yup, look at the job listings. They want experienced welders but are paying chump change. And for beginning welders they only offer a 4 year apprenticeship program that pays peanuts, for 4 years a man could go to college!

[@DarkRendition]

I don't think that was the takeaway from this video’s explanation.

[@loganhermanns2675]

Not to mention everyone told their kids to ignore the trades and go to college instead for the last few decades.

[@Gravitatis]

@@loganhermanns2675 really? cause when i was in college back in the year 2014 everyone was telling me it was for chumps. they told me welding was where the real money was at.

[@alexanderakh4955]

Taking into account situation with Boeing - the entire US heavy industry is in a dire crisis of corruption and mismanagement.

[@erasmus_locke]

Build a ship like normal ❌ Delays, bad designs, cost overruns ✅

[@lucianorosarelli-xr5lr]

i hate us navy isn't navy but butcher kzbin.info/www/bejne/moCXqZaoo7aFqs0 we can sold off the shelf of corse

[@kalinmir]

that is pretty much normal

[@Mechanized85]

yeah, no talents, no capable, no one willing to do the roles, no wonder why got problems.

[@jonnyqi]

When one government branch has to change "complete" to "100% complete", so the NAVY would stop playing word games, you just know the country is in deep shit.

[@thevictoryoverhimself7298]

Clear wording is an important aspect of leadership. One man’s common sense is another man’s mind reading. The south lost the battle of Gettysburg and maybe the war because the instruction given by General Lee was “take that hill of disorganized retreating soldiers, if you want” instead of “take that hill of disorganized retreating soldiers”. The guy getting the orders, General Ewell decided to have dinner instead since he was given the option and gave them all night to prepare defenses and reorganize. Two or three different words from Lee prevented what might have been the sacking and burning of Washington

[@shanerooney7288]

"The ship design is 100% complete." "Where's the engine?" "That doesn't fall under 'ship design' "

[@casbot71]

In 2027 they'll have to change it to 110% complete in order to close another loophole...

[@jonnyqi]

@@thevictoryoverhimself7298 Interesting story there. But I think the current situation is more like order was given as “take that hill of disorganized retreating soldiers", and the hill was not taken. When asked why it wasn't taken, the response was "you didn't define what a hill is in the order".

[@exharkhun5605]

It was a fiasco from the moment they announced they were picking an off-the-shelf design that they were going to "tweak" for American purposes.

[@dc-fc7tp]

yeah the ship they started off with was cheap and capable

[@exharkhun5605]

@@dc-fc7tp And the possibility to be fitted out differently between navies is build into the basic design. It's absolutely maddening, changing a design just enough that you loose the advantages of it being off-the-shelf, but not enough to gain significant advantages out of it being fully to your own specs.

[@corvanphoenix]

It's crazy that they have to say "100% complete" instead of just "complete". Apparently we're in an era where "complete" is literally incomplete.

[@TheTryingDutchman]

Well its the era where America doesnt even understand/acknowledge the difference between boys and girls so i cant say im surprised.

[@realdreamerschangetheworld7470]

@@TheTryingDutchmanbro just had to bring it to the culture war 😂

[@johnladuke6475]

"We need a whole class of ships, _fast._ So let's use an existing design. Well, but we'll change it _a little,_ to make it our own. That is, we'll change 85% of that existing design we picked. Hey, why's the ship late?"

[@brunoethier896]

It's funny how those problems are nothing new. I was a Systems Engineer in a shipyard back in 2014-18, and lack of stability plus temp workers leaving with their expertise were definitely already a problem then.

[@MrMakabar]

Finland builds more ships then the US in gross tonnage. It is just insane how bad US civilian shipbuilding has become.

[@pieratesofcarribean]

Thats what happen when you have private Military industrial complex. It is never efficient.

[@joe-yy2bq]

between regulations and labor costs shipbuilding is dead in the USA unless it is forced to be built in the USA. no way to compete with a Chinese shipyard worker getting paid 5$ an hour with massive state subsidies vs a worker in the usa getting paid 24$ before benefits and with heavy regulations

[@brotherhoodofsteeld.c.chap1917]

@@pieratesofcarribeanIt does seem to develop superior technology though.

[@prfwrx2497]

​@@pieratesofcarribeanno, it's what happens when you kill the military industrial complex. The US MIC died in 1992.

[@ipeteagles]

@@prfwrx2497 LOL

[@DirtyHairy1]

its a good case study how businesses should not outsource their core competences or core infrastructure. unless you are easily replaceable like commercial airlines.

[@stefano8936]

"They have chosen an existing design to save time".... And they redesigned it from scratch

[@shanerooney7288]

They saved money by redesigning an existing design instead of redesigning a new design

[@John_Smith_86]

As a Marine Engineer, if the facts in this video are true, it is entirely the Navy's fault, no question. You finalise the design, including all electrical and piping lines, before you start construction. And no variation orders over 1 million or collectively over 5 million for each department altogether should be permitted, except by a ranking Admiral or higher. Otherwise, you have every little dipshit wanting to vary the design just a bit. When you add all these bits up, they become a massive cost overrun. Plus the Navy should have accepted the foreign design in its entirety without any modications. If it doesn't comply with US law, then seek an exemption. Don't try to customise stuff.

[@dragonmares59110]

The fact that they choose to change the design so radicaly is beyond me...if it is good enough for France, Italy and all the other countries buying them then it should have been doing a damn good job for the USA too. This seems like a ego problem in the navy

[@polysporin8332]

dragging out the build guarantees people employment. the longer the better. I see this everywhere from construction to video game production. its only taxpayer money. one example AAA game took 8 years to complete. when it should only take a year at most.

[@voidtempering8700]

​@@polysporin8332The fact that you think a AAA could be produced in a year is beyond me. You don't understand the development process, do you?

[@leehongjin6884]

Us: Just take an already-built finished design and just make it. US Navy: No.

[@looinrims]

Navy go five minutes without fucking up challenge (IMPOSSIBLE EDITION!)

[@amorbis4210]

"Dam-ning" "Clusterduck" Binkov don't ever change, man.

[@jerryk.1889]

It’s not just shipbuilding. It’s Boeing, GE, GM, IBM, Intel…and the list goes on and on and on. There is a rot, and money is cancer.

[@Hamsteak]

This is why I love Binkov videos, best illustrations on this subject matter 👏

[@davea8346]

I worked at Marinette Marine as a CAM (Cost Account Manager) during LCS build. It was a complete farce. Quality, schedule and cost were horrible but as long as CPI reports were near 1.0, however erroneously, everything was rosy. I don't have confidence in Marinette Marine being able to acquire and maintain the skilled engineering and labor for this project. The work environment was horrible, the pay not so great, and the local living conditions fairly depressing.

[@georgea.corman2226]

The US Navy's acquisition department's motto should be "For really big screw ups, nothing beats teamwork"

[@moss550]

7300 tons, 32VLS, 1.3 billion per ship?. So they are building a 052D destroyer sized frigate with the firepower of a 054A frigate, and the price tag of 1.5x 055 cruiser.

[@huatlam8752]

Sound pretty accurate to me. And the PLAN can produce them at 'dumpling' speed. 😂😂

[@lagrangewei]

but it will be 1 knot faster....

[@yoshiforpm]

At the core, this is a problem familiar to a Canadian: they bought an OTS design to save money, but they want so many customizations they’ve ended up worse off than if they designed the thing from the ground up.

[@erasmus_locke]

Every. Single. Time. Why does the military always constantly change requirements for every single weapon system.

[@CabbageBloke]

Read about the Ajax vehicle in the British Army. It makes Constellation class look like the perfectly run programme.

[@JoeOvercoat]

70%!!!

[@Samson373]

Given the shortage of skilled labor in the shipbuilding industry, perhaps Congress should fund a vocational shipbuilding school that is FREE for Navy, Coast Guard and Marine personnel -- or maybe for all US military personnel -- nearing the end of their service term. Shipbuilders are well paid. (A cursory Google search suggests they make something like $65K to $150K depending on seniority, position level, skill type, location, and performance.) Thus it shouldn't be hard to attract students from a pool of outgoing military personnel who would otherwise be entering the civilian world with no prospect for a lucrative job. Moreover, a free shipbuilding school would likely pay for itself by way of lower costs for the Navy to get its ships built and repaired.

[@daniels0376]

​@theodoreolson8529No no no, what you are saying there is socialism and it's evil and America is free and private and for profit RAAAAAAAAH 🦅🦅🦅🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@fertilerevitilizer7833]

Congress doesnt have the insight, capability, not do they give enough f*cks to actually do something like that.

[@ZioBorisitalia]

@Samson373 i heard but never checked that Fincantieri asked to bring italian personnel just for the first ship, so in the meantime the US could hire new workers but the Navy refuse because of the "only american citizen" rule/law...

[@ZioBorisitalia]

@theodoreolson8529 if the project was kept the same of our FREMM(Bergamini Class) there would have be no needs at least for the hull of the ship, cutting a lot of time and money since in Italy we are still producing Bergamini. No needs in more secret safety procedures.

[@4DCResinSmoker]

Prior service have much easier time getting the security clearances required for the job. That being said, educating someone with a felony is 100% pointless, as they can't be law seek employment under and government contract. This includes any companies that operate on US bases in a logistical / service capacity only. Such as McDonald's and Burger King.

[@mike83ny]

We used to be able to build an aircraft carrier in three years that would last 40 years+. Now, it takes 20 years to realize the current design is a pile of crap. We truly are becoming the joke of the planet.

[@daniel_dumile]

A gov run by managers not productive people. Google "Iron rule of beuracracy". All they are good at is adding new processes and rules, which get added every time they mess something up because they were idiots and all they do is make it even harder for the next idiot to build it

[@Gravitatis]

becoming? friend, you americans have been the jokes of the planet for the past 20 years

[@luigifranceschi2350]

Moreover you raise concerns about the CODAG ( combined diesel and gas ) propulsion about “never been used in the navy”. Maybe not the US navy, but Italian navy has been using it since at least 40 years, always built by Fincantieri. So for militar applications if you want to use CODAG propulsion, Fincantieri is the name where to go.

[@erf3176]

US Navy: Let's order a proven and completed design to save money and accelerate production Also US Navy: Let's start ordering a bunch of modifications to the existing and proven design to increase costs and delay production

[@robruss62]

Because God forbid the idiot US Congress spend money to order lots of ships, not crap around with the program funding, and buy in bulk so there is incentive to build and deliver ships as cheaply and fast as possible. But surface ships, submarines, and aircraft carriers- or apparently bombers, fighters, ballistic missile defense, ICBMs, tanks or helicopters- don't rank as highly as carbon capture plants, tax breaks to rich woke companies, bullet trains to nowhere, shovel ready jobs, solyndra, weatherizing homes, cash for clunkers, PPI, welfare for illegals, and so many other worthy programs that have consumed trillions of dollars over the last decade or so while China built about 300 ships. The US has a $27 trillion economy- a miserable $30-40 billion a year to build a 500 ship fleet is in no way prohibitive. And yes, the work force and Navy have lots of manpower available- but recruiting standards are ludicrously high (Clinton era standards meant to stop most from joining in a time when the navy was cut 40%) and most Americans are stupidly disqualified because they aren't A student adonis' with squeaky clean records, and also don't want to sit through woke reeducation seminars and also serve for lower pay than small town cops make. None of this is unsolvable. The US can borrow or print a bit more- money can be shuffled around (good grief!!!!! DEAD people get billions a year in social security and Medicare checks! Basic work requirements for many government social programs still haven't been restored, costing tens of billions a year... Hundreds of billions in subsidies for green energy boondoggles, including $280 billion stolen from Medicare, might as well be set on fire for all the good it does). And yes, both tariffs and the corporate tax rate can go up a few points as both are still historically low. The military is half the size it was in 1990, and a third the size it was in the Eisenhower/JFK era. It's 15% of the federal budget .. it is grossly underfunded and undersized. Order a lot more ships, planes, tanks and missiles, pay personnel more, and in the process incentivize growth of industry as FDRs 1930's ship building program did to alleviate the depression

[@Western_Decline]

@@robruss62have you ever been to an American city? They’re literally filled with homeless people. Our mass transit is embarrassing. We need to fix our country at home. Stop fighting wars overseas.

[@pabcu2507]

Never forget, Mr krabs sold spongebob’s soul for 62 cents

[@chunhinyu7999]

You think you can get more???

[@typennington4567]

I work at one of these ship yards. . The reason why we can't keep skilled labor is because the pay is shit compared to what is asked

[@johnladuke6475]

Yeah, "competing with fast food and losing" is not a recipe for a stable skilled workforce.

[@typennington4567]

@johnladuke6475 shit sucks and it's not geting any better... I would say too many chiefs not enough indians. Now that really is the biggest problem

[@RN1441]

@@typennington4567 Don't forget that there are always needs for more HR, and diversity directors.

[@TheBooban]

They have to pay for all the cost overruns so they can’t afford to pay workers. Always like that.

[@typennington4567]

@@TheBooban more like the higher ups giving raise only too the management here and not the rest and it's not like there hiding it.

[@michaeliverson2164]

There’s another angle to consider: The NAVY thought of itself as spec op force during the War On Terror. Basically, the Navy thought of itself as solely a SEAL Team, and SEAL Team support. Nothing against the SEALS, but this idea made the Navy lose sight of what it main job is. Bottom line is: The Navy forgot how to build and drive ships, and the Navy needs to be a Navy again.

[@minimax9452]

Danke!

[@bathysphere1070]

And yet, no nobody in charge of this (no admiral or official) will be fired. In fact, they will be given promotions so that they can screw up other projects. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

[@VisibilityFoggy]

Bingo. When you fire people who have huge egos, medals pinned to their jackets and lucrative careers in front of them, you end up with all of these people sending letters to the New York Times calling you a "threat to democracy" and a dictator.

[@williamgarry2635]

Given how much the US Navy changed the FREMM frigate design to grow it into the Constellation-class frigate, I'm trying to understand why they didn't just start with the ROK's Sejong the Great-class destroyer & cut a section or 2 of hull sections that contained extra VLS cells out of it b/c which from the outside appears to be near the size, range, and weapons loadout that the USN is trying to pack into the smaller FREMM design...

[@rollout1984]

THANK YOU!!!

[@kennethferland5579]

Exactly we should buy from the Koreans they are the only people that can hold a candle to the Chinese shipbuilding giants on price and speed.

[@AlbertComelles1970]

Once an industry starts losing its experienced workforce, the fateful end is near.

[@daniel_dumile]

This is happening in everything America builds, gov can't build anything anymore with it being 10yrs late and 3x the cost. The rot is deep in their relationships with these same small sets of mega vendors (see Boeing and Lockheed) and massive checklists politicians put on everything to spread it out over random pet companies that are local or fits some political agenda. There's no competition. There's no consequences for doing it bad. Procurement people are best friends with the same buyers whose only skill is checking the red tape boxes. It's just a jobs program and brings money into states.

[@silveryuno]

What's the point of using a existing design if you're going to change almost all of it!

[@xxnightdriverxx9576]

You downplayed one VERY important point: The FREMM design has been chosen specifically to have a mature design ready to build with only a small number of design revisions needed. The entire purpose of the Constellation is to take an existing design, put it into production basically immediately, to save the design time. That was also why the lead ship was laid down basically immediately. After that, the US then decided to redesign 80% of the entire ship, partially due to meddling from Congress (such as forcing Tomahawk strike capability on a design not made for that, which needs a complete redesign of the bow section as a result of the increased weight and space requirements for the strike length VLS). These redesigns obviously negate the entire point of choosing a foreign design in the first place.

[@JULIENSELLIER]

Well just saying that in the French version of the FREMM they do have the land attack Mdcn (Naval version of the Scalp with 1400 Km of range) capability with the A70 version of the Sylver launcher with 16 VLS cells. So yes it was designed for and even for the Italian version , even if they did not equip them with it. Your argument for that part doesn't stand what so ever.

[@surters]

Feature creep, not designed here, wanting a battleship instead of a frigat etc.

[@dopepopeurban6129]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@JULIENSELLIERno, hes 100% right about this. Several ships of the French FREMM feature A-70 Sylver VLS, yes, but the Constellation FFG is based on the Italian version, not the French, which only features the A-50 shafts.

[@JULIENSELLIER]

@@dopepopeurban6129 Well no the Italian did not install the A-70 Sylver VLS, yet the hull is designed for they have the space just behind the A-50, only what I m saying. So as US bought the Italian design they should have been able to fit a Mark41 at the same place. By the way Italy has joined the Uk & France for the next FC/ASW missiles to replace existing Storm Shadow SCALP and Exocet and Harpoon, and announced that they will fit them on their FREMM. I guess that say it all . Cheers

[@TornadoADV]

The US Navy hasn't been about being a Navy since the collapse of the USSR and now it can no longer coast on the lead it's past self had built up. Chickens coming home to roost and all that.

[@love2win]

If the corporate world is any indication: Too many people getting promoted for writing reports and going to meetings. Not enough autonomy/authority given to people who can fix actual problems.

[@alexanderfoster3628]

It's just part of the overall decline of Western civilisation. We used to the supreme leaders at building things and innovating, but now even simple projects take a very long time and go significantly over budget with mountains of unnecessary paperwork.

[@Mcsqw]

​@@alexanderfoster3628Yep. We confuse efficiency with cost, productivity with hours worked, and allow too few people to monopolise and accumulate far too much wealth which is then extracted from the economy.

[@agus_medan]

The problem is too many hands touches the cooking.

[@Ardiantothehulk]

yes, the giant beraucratic monster

[@coolcoolercoolest212]

Employers treating employees like shit and then being shocked when they cant find anyone to work for them will always be grimly amusing to me.

[@SlvrWlf88]

Newport News shipbuilding here they will literally hire anybody off the street and give them a week training and then lay them all before the holidays

[@wozza77able]

$5000 won’t go far over 12 months. They have treated their work force like crap and now all that experience is flipping burgers or doing package delivery. Sadly it’s not just America.

[@SamLowry1985]

It's funny the brass thinks $5k--before taxes in high cost of living states--will solve the worker retention/shortage problem. Do they know how much a used (not new) car costs in VA and Maine? Let alone the cost of staples of life for a family.

[@Gravitatis]

you guys realize that the 5k was just a bonus to their normal salary right it takes me 4 months to earn 5k at my job

[@Tgungen]

It always feels like the American arms industry has so much money in their hands that they don't have any concept of mindful spending

[@samael7867]

they have a mindful way of spending of money, they just give it to the shareholder, as much as they think they can. meaning, employing to less engeneers, workers etc

[@panderson9561]

@@samael7867 That describes all American businesses.

[@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket]

@@panderson9561 If that were true Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Meta, Alphabet, and many other American corporations wouldn't be the global leader in their respective fields. Our military industrial complex got fat off the dividends from the cold war ending peacefully; they got used to being paid to keep capacity on hand but never expected to need to use it and didn't maintain their workforce, which is why we have a massive shortcoming on skilled ship builders. It's not American companies to blame, it's Congress and the president from the 90's Clinton. Clinton let China into the WTO just like Nixon opened trade with China; doing that enabled the Chinese government to enter our markets and cheat through subsidies undercutting steal production until they were the worlds producer of steal, then they raised their prices back up. Allowing them to use their dominate position as both the worlds factory and a monopoly on many things they produced (namely cheap low grade metal) to take over the shipping industry. This happened about the same time the USSR collapsed and we felt Capitalism had won and democracy was coming soon. So we went from needing to always be ready for the next world war to "wow we have to much surplus on hand and really don't need to worry about any near peers as we have none" which resulted in the F-22 cuts, the naval fleet shrinkage, and the closing of over a dozen shipyards. I wanna say we had 16 and now we have 4; one will reopen soon under South Korean management thankfully trying to inject some competition into the market. But the problem is we got lazy and thought we'd never have to fight a real world war again after the collapse of the USSR and the entry of the CCP into the WTO. So naive.

[@ManicPixie-bb7wc]

They literally just print money freely. Look at the U.S. national debt. The chickens will come home to roost eventually.

[@AssortedFern]

When I worked in a joint office (just doing office work) the Navy was clearly the most dysfunctional. It was the most likely to have disconnected officers giving inconsistent guidance, and the disconnect between different ranks (junior enlisted / senior enlisted / officers) was bizarre and detrimental. Most folks I knew in the Navy either wanted out, or wanted a job as disconnected from big Navy as they could get. Most other branches, you could legit feel like a family that looked after each other and cared enough to make sure everyone was good. I did not get that vibe looking from the outside at Navy.

[@jonny-b4954]

Thats what happens when you allow the hundreds of defense contactors to be bougjt out and become... 10? The corporate conglomerate is the modern day monopoly.

[@thecommentaryking]

Meanwhile the Fincantieri shipyards at Riva Trigoso, Italy, took on average 3 years to launch a FREMM for the Italian Navy and another year to complete the ships before being commissioned, so in total an average of 4 years. Since 2008, Riva Trigoso Shipyards built 12 ships, 10 of which are in active service in the Italian and Egyptian navies and two are being completed at Muggiano Shipyards and are expected to enter service next year

[@SilverforceX]

Gonna say this again, the US military used to be more vertical, they had inhouse engineering teams for design & R&D, and over time, everything switched over to for-profit PRIVATE companies which receives contracts. These companies only goal is to MAX PROFIT. So whatever they can do to generate max profit they will, this includes bidding low to get the project when they know there's no way it will be built for that price or that time. They will then invent excuses to milk more tax payer money. Eventually, something is delivered and it ends up being 5-10X the cost, while being 2-3X time to make. This has been ongoing for decades, not a new problem. When you allow private companies to dictate defense equipment, they will max profiteer at your expense.

[@leehongjin6884]

Agreed. Back in the day was peak US navy ship building and design. Des Moines-class is prob of my favs.

[@merrick6484]

These contractors are also open to international bidding and financial lures. Why work in US if Australians can pay higher? And the owners of Australian companies are Mr. Wong and Mr. Chan. 😂😂😂

[@charlesmaurer6214]

And like the Gates windows plan full of bugs to require added cost with changes and upgrades.

[@lolcatjunior]

​@@merrick6484Lmao.

[@nedaustin239]

The US is incapable of designing ships. LCS, DD-21, this frigate. Last decent ship was Arleigh Burke

[@robertalaverdov8147]

Which was originally designed and started to be built in the 80's. Close to 4 decades ago. And the replacement will probably not come for another decade. That's half a century of relying on a single design. Good as it may be they're not fit for the the variety of roles the navy needs to fill.

[@weatherwaxusefullhints2939]

The fact, that the Chinese build smaller ships is probably also an advantage. They plan in having any conflict nearby, see Taiwan. The US need larger ships because of the logistics of fighting on the other side of the world. China builds for one specific issue. The US builds for more general applications.

[@Shyhalu]

They don't need ships to deal with Taiwan, they can blow it out of the ocean from the mainland. Sending ships is a mercy to the civilians there. The US needs larger ships because of an outdated mindset, old men that haven't dealt with a real war in decades.

[@Archer89201]

They build 80k ton carrier Type 03, 30k ton LHD and assault ships like Type 75 and Type 71, 11k ton cruiser Type 55 , 7k ton destroyer Type 52D and multiple types of frigates and submarines simultaneously. Only the US SSN fleet and carrier fleet have an edge, surface combat vessels the chinese have caught up

[@Flightman453]

Have you been paying attention at all over the last decade..? China doesn't build small ships anymore. All the ships they build are 4000+ ton and up ships, basically nothing smaller than frigates. They haven't built any corvettes in 3 years and stopped building missile boats even years before that. The Type 055 or Type 052D are not "small ships". Neither are frigates like Type 054B and so on.

[@neutralino1905]

​@@Flightman453052Ds are smaller than Burkes. That's one major difference.

[@Flightman453]

@@neutralino1905 And? That’s not what I’m talking about or comparing. His point was they still build “small ships” when they don’t. Near 8,000 tons is not “small”.

[@grimfortress6420]

Time to strip the say so on ship design COMPLETELY away from the navy. Create a ship bureau and deliver the ship as is to the Navy and tell them make it work or be courtmartialed

[@minimax9452]

Fantastic report - real peace bring us all together

[@chanoliverkumyun9123]

Systematic failure is not a small issue. These are signs and symptoms of something much bigger. Trace the root of problems to down to hiring , industrial , educational and political system..

[@GSteel-rh9iu]

USN needs serious oversight; they have started building without freezing design. Off the shelf means you don't go changing the design! The US public is on a whole very unaware of these problems.

[@christophmahler]

It's the Navy as the customer and it's inflationary requirements of building a light frigate to the specifications of a star destroyer. The result will be a Navy without ships as the service life of the Cold War platforms can't be reasonably extended - not to speak of modernizing their capability for the prize of a an entire flotilla.

[@jorehir]

The new generation of Italian frigates (FREMM EVO) is coming out sooner than this Constellation monstrosity...

[@jorehir]

I mean, the US navy can just buy those. Weapons and sensors will be comparable to the Constellation.

[@Leon1Aust]

@@jorehir nope

[@nomadtv6009]

Wait, outsourcing government contracts to the private sector resulted in cost over runs, extensive delays, reliability issues, worker retention issues and loss of engineering capacity and overall oversight avility? Never saw that coming.

[@muskepticsometimes9133]

US has basically zero civilian ship building, China makes more than 100X tonnage of US. If you have big civilian ship building you get lower cost (large scale, and civilian competitive) and you get large experience workforce.

[@t_w_7821]

it's actually 230 times....

[@mikeg0802]

Unbelievable…. An Iowa class battleship only took 3 years to build

[@nobodyherepal3292]

Ya, unbelievable that a ship that was made when battleships were already made routinely by existing industries during total war conditions with no modern computer hardware integrated into it by a ship yard with 8 other battleship hulls already put down could be built in 4 years….. It’s almost like that’s nothing in common with a modern state of the art frigate of the 21st century that had to do multiple roles, with lots of onboard automation and high end weapon systems, being made by a country that hasn’t made a frigate class ship since the 1980s…

[@mikeg0802]

@@nobodyherepal3292 the first Ford class super-carrier took 5 years by comparison, but we already had plenty of those too, I guess

[@nobodyherepal3292]

@@mikeg0802 we have *1* in the fleet. The others are going to take until 2035 to make, and that’s just *half* of the planned total amount. Because it’s a brand new design.

[@AirRider44]

The DOD needs to bring back its own shipyards. Perhaps a new weapons and vehicle manufacturing agency that’s not-for-profit and ran by DOD civilians. Competitive pay, and a pension plan. You’d have no shortage of skilled workers, engineers and architects, for those roles.

[@granyte]

Yep sending everything to the private was a mistake

[@bangmo7]

I am a South Korean. Recently Hanhwa Ocean bought Philadelphia Shipyard. But I wonder, given the 'ecosystem' of naval ship building in the US, whether a South Korean company can do it good. Here, fixed cost contract with fixed design. On time and on budget. But it seems that all these rules are blurred out in the US. Maybe South Korean companies can give good advice to the US Navy in the design phase. But who can guarantee that they do not chnage mind?

[@LeoChen-v6z]

I think the US doesnt want to rely on south korea and japan, it tries to be independent. This is already proven by US-japan relations. The US wants to reverse control all of its smaller countries(not the US's fault its lockheed's fault)

[@kevinshort3943]

@@LeoChen-v6z Probably why Japan has gone in with the UK on next gen jets, rather than the US.

[@VisibilityFoggy]

Oh, South Korea could teach America PLENTY - but you already know the answer. Politicians will not listen unless it gets them re-elected, lines their pockets, or both.

[@jsncrso]

I work as a systems engineer in the yacht building industry. I can 100% attest to the issue of skilled workers. Our company has been dealing with this since 2019 and is one of the main reason our projects are so behind schedule and over budget.

[@Gravitatis]

the service your company provides is completely superfluous

[@yonghuachen7075]

Shipbuilding requires a lot of welding jobs which are boring and hazardous to health. It also needs long time training for experiences. No t a single US university offers Welding major while in China, some wellknown universities still offer Welding programs to train engineers.

[@yonghuachen7075]

US navy is doomed. Believe me

[@knoll9812]

Or have a look at how Italian shipbuilding industry was rebuilt .

[@hyhhy]

Hasn't China been making a large number of new destroyer or frigate prototypes, then building a second improved version of each prototype with lessons from the first ship, then deciding if the design is good enough for mass production, and when the design is not good enough (most often), moving on to the next prototype? And China has used this approach even with aircraft carriers. This way, China's shipbuilders will get going and run into the inevitable problems fast, so problems can be fixed iteratively and the building and designing process will constantly improve. Meanwhile, the US is trying to get it perfect on the first try. Build more prototypes!

[@lolcatjunior]

China has more shipyards than the US since the Navy has had to shutdown dozens of military shipyards. Chinese own 50% of the shipbuilding industry. The US navy logistics and building used to be centralized. Now, it's run by corpos who only care about profits and dates. So much price gouging and cutting corners as well as labor stress is happening now.

[@hyhhy]

@@lolcatjunior Liberal capitalism doing its thing.

[@akula9713]

It’s not about making a good ship, it’s all about making money $$$$$

[@plantguyrama11]

The economic incentive is not there. I used to work for defense as an engineer but left for tech because it pays literally 5x more. If you want things to be good you will have to pay for it. That’s why you can’t retain talent. It just doesn’t pay like it used to. And jobs like Amazon or fast food pay better or are equivalent but more chill and easier. Stop blaming the people here because no one will want to work on ships. They need to pay the Navy more, probably like 3x more if you want to build proper ships

[@JWQweqOPDH]

May I ask what work you did for the defense industry and what work you do now? I recently graduated with a BS in Engineering Technology and I'm looking for a job. I'm interested in defense but I don't think there's any such jobs in my area and I can't move. I've applied to a dozen manufacturing jobs, a university engineering department, and one warehouse, but no job offers. I had an interview that seemed to go well but they said I should apply to a higher-up / more technical position (implying that I was overqualified) (they turned me down for the position I interviewed for) so I did, but they turned me down (without interview for that position).

[@Jeffery3464]

@@JWQweqOPDH Average job search in 2024 lol

[@jamesbannerman4804]

It's the LCS all over again.

[@jcnamaasshi]

I'm glad our Mogami class frigates keep not too big on design and fast building. I never thought they only take less than three years from lay down to commission.

[@PaulJohnson-ow1mq]

At this point, the US Navy could fuck up a wet dream.

[@EZ-rs5zv]

In corporate America PROFITS are the sole motivation and measure of success. The top executives get bigger bonuses (a hell of a lot more than $5000 being given to workers) when profits are bigger. The easiest way to boost profits are to squeeze the workers, skimp during production, and submit cost overruns. With only a few shipbuilders monopolizing production in the US they can screw the workers and the USN with impunity.

[@dayros2023]

Just have the ships built in Italy, they already have experience in building the Freems and cost for each ship will be much lower. In 10 years they can deliver 10 ships.

[@silusiano]

The point is that they didn't want the Fremm, they wanted something very different, probably they didn't even know what they actually want.

[@stevinharper3551]

Who could've guessed the company that built a mistake like LCS messed up again.

[@billhanna2148]

Same people ? even the ones in Congress and you seem to forget your 'Merikan History on Corporate Welfare where the Corporations pay the politicians and the Navy to do EXACTLY what they want.

[@manfredstrappen7491]

The Navy/Marines ALWAYS adds so much to designs to the point of needing a redesign, after contracts are signed. The V-22, Marine 1, ships, etc.. They act like spoiled heiresses interfering with the home builders and decorating contractors: “oh wait, I don’t want that now. I want this…”

[@douginorlando6260]

Just think where China’s military capabilities will be 9 years from now. Not just with their industrial capacity, but also their rapid rate of technology advancement & innovation. And imagine production rates if they ever convert their industrial base to war time footing,

[@lordhe11iaon95]

They would be able to replace ships in just a day or 2

[@GRIGGINS1]

Hard to crew warships with a bunch of 60 and 70 year Olds. China screwed itself with the one child policy. Now they have way more old people than young people.

[@John.S.Patton]

​@@GRIGGINS1now its 2 child policy 😂😂

[@okyes3717]

@@GRIGGINS1 Except there population is 4 times that of america and if china is suffereng from old people then america is suffering from transgender, gays and obesity.

[@xuansu9036]

@@GRIGGINS1 even though China has less young people than before, it's still WAY more than what US has. Even the "old people" are not really old. China's retirement age is 55. Pretending there is a population crisis in China is just laughable.

[@TheFlutecart]

It would have been cheaper to build a new shipyard at this point.

[@danielefabbro822]

"Fiasco" is the italian word for "failure" and usually a most obvious one. Americans wanted pur ship, but their need to "make it bigger" basically destroyed the project. If they want to fix it, they have to let pur designers works on it to make it a reasonably good unit. Otherwise the American DoD will just not have an entire new cathegory of ships.

[@1_random_commenter]

At this point, just bring in Perun as a full-time consultant

[@shanerooney7288]

USAN "we've started a multi-billion dollar review to see if Power Point Presentations are strategically competitive in the Pacific theatre. We expect results to be ready in late 2030s"

[@johngodden4363]

When the acquisition requirements are that it must be a mature design, why when you’ve made a choice do you modify it severely so that there is only a 20 - 30% commonality with the original design?? This is nothing short of lunacy.

[@tatonoot1950]

How did they mess up a FREMM frigate? At this point, just buy ships from korean shipbuilders. Hyundai and Hanwha build a lot of ships, even naval ships and have become very popular

[@MrAizatazmi]

cant go wrong with korean shipbiilders, they build ship fast and affordable

[@gumpyoldbugger6944]

You think the US Congress be it run by either the DNC or GOP would allow that? Oh hell no. It's bad enough as far as they are concerned that the new frigates are based on an Italian design. Soon as any US Admiral suggest buy South Korean, Canadian, Japanese or any European designed and built ships, he would be out on his arse without a pension. The US has a policy of buying "American" (apart from the USMC who do their own thing) even if it means paying more and getting less for it. And remember, America is in the weapons selling game, it's one of the few things that the US produces and exports. They will want to sell these new frigates to their allies, as long as they are built in US shipyards. Unfortunately for the US, those Asian customers they once could count on are now developing and building their own ships as well as offering them for sale, basically they are starting to compete against the US in that regard and can offer hulls at a faster rate and cheaper price. When the RCN's Halifax class frigate was launched in 1988 it was concidered to be one of the best if not the best frigates out there. Canada offered it for sale to a number of its allies and there was some serious interest at the time. The US government wasn't happy about that, as it looked to take a bite of their own sales and pressured various nations not to purchase the Halifax and offered them deals on existing US designes. Today however, the US doesn't have either the designs or capacity to offer nations like South Korea or Japan warships at any price.

[@wattax2]

The problem is corruption in us military industrial complex. Wayy too much money available and 0 accountability

[@asmith1711]

Correct, but also a trade exam prior to employment would solve a lot of issues

[@informationcollectionpost3257]

Mostly its poor Naval DoD management plus lack of seasoned and competent DoD engineers in technical management positions.

[@rgloria40]

There are a lot fake degree and fake foreign degree engineers in the US military...they use the excuse war experience as well as military clearances and necessarities. For example, look at all the last senior officer promotion list, a lot of farts, not a lot advance STEM degree, and etc...promotions. A lie is a lie and they even lie a lot about the officer who got a real advance STEM DEGREE...

[@sergeyboychuck8872]

and why DoD have such problems? may be some politicians are involved (whisper)?

[@Vendell_23]

Because they keep adding more things to the ship that was not intended for its original role

[@McbrideStudios]

Ship design really should have been kept in house. This is the Navy, not a cruise line.

[@ChronicAndIronic]

I’m so sick of this. My ship, CG-54 is decommissioning on 27SEP24 and there’s no replacement. it’s embarrassing

[@mordax7443]

The USN/Congress should at this point seriously consider ordering at least some of their ships from friendly yards in, e.g. s. korea, japan, europe. Especially korean yards could supplement usn frigate/destroyer building programs while building faster and for cheaper. US shipyards need some competition to get back in shape.

[@thehumus8688]

HAHA, US Military Industrial Complex want their Allies depend on Them - making US allied produce US arms is defeating that point Maintain dependencies is more important than Projecting against Threat, as it directly related to US GeoStrategic Position Allies dont last forever, it never will

[@John_Smith_86]

This would drive the incompetent US yards out of business. And then the US would have no domestic shipbuilding capacity.

[@kennethferland5579]

@@John_Smith_86 They have already been driven out of buisness and are being bought out by forgin companies, which is a GOOD thing as the domestic operators drove US shipbuilding into the ground with the standard idiot American short term buisness thinking.

[@kennethferland5579]

@@John_Smith_86 They have already been driven out of buisness and are being bought out by forgin companies, which is a GOOD thing as the domestic operators drove US shipbuilding into the ground with the standard idiot American short term buisness thinking.

[@arakami8547]

If the USN wanted a new design, then it should've chosen a new design... by the time the Constellation enters service in the 2030s it'll be a step behind contemporary European frigate designs like the FREMM-EVO or F126. Hell, the Constellation design itself is behind the base FREMM design already - why they adopted it is a miracle. If the USN wanted a ship in-service this decade, why did they opt for a FREMM-derivative in the first place? The FREMM is utterly incompatible with American equipment, how is that not obvious? Why didn't they choose the F-100, that things basically a miniature Arleigh Burke already. Why did it have to go to auction?

[@christianvalentin5344]

Follow the money. Also your argument for selecting the F-100 has a major flaw: It made too much sense.

[@johnsilver9338]

Constellation class frigates have a BMD radar with SPY-6. None of the Chinese and European frigates have BMD radars except with Spanish F100 class and Australian Hobart class which use older SPY-1D. But I also don't understand why they choose FREEM when they could join UK, Canada, and Australia in building Type 26 moreso Australia's version River class will use SPY-7. Or Spain's new F110 class which will also use SPY-7.

[@arakami8547]

@@johnsilver9338 I think most modern naval AESA radars have BMD capability, and their ships can all intercept ballistic missiles in the early boost and terminal phases. What qualifies a ship as having BMD capability is whether they're loaded with ABM-capable missiles like the SM3/SM6, or Aster 30 B1 - anti-ballistic missiles that can intercept ballistic missiles during about their midcourse phase. Most in-service European navies decided it unnecessary to provide their ships with a BMD capability, most of their warships are not so expeditionary or globe-trotting like American ones. ABM missiles could instead be land-based at a fraction of the price, sparing warships VLS capacities for SM-2s or Aster 30s. Most European frigates otherwise have been using really very capable AESA radar systems for over a decade now, that are a generation more advanced and more capable than the PESA SPY-1D(V). Most future frigates will be using GaN AESA radars like the SPY-6, and many also use the L-band SMART-L/S1850M that is otherwise unrivalled in its long-range surveillance capabilities. I'm not so much concerned about the radar of the Constellation, SPY-6 is certain to prove very capable. Rather I'm concerned of its general design and lesser systems. A lot of the systems ditched with the redesign were systems that were simply better than their American counterpart systems. I know a degree of commonality is demanded for equipment, though it still irks me... The 127mm Vulcano, the communications mast and ESM suite, the torpedoes, the integrated mast... there's also the riddance of a bow sonar. What irks me equally is the design. With the exception of the F110, I think its generally understood that the future of larger fixed-array warships without flexible mission bays as with the Type 26, lie in designs like the FREMM-EVO and F-125/F-126/F-127. Designs that split the main radar between the forward and after masts for improved survivability, weight distribution, and lesser interference with radar when firing. The DDG(X) concept rendering displayed that design trait, the Constellation does not. At least her radars are above the bridge now though, when compared to the Burkes. Why does it still not have an integrated mast, however? The reason why the US shipbuilding industry hasn't retained the capacity to build integrated masts is because the USN doesn't demand it.

[@johnsilver9338]

@@arakami8547 Surface AESA radars can only see up to LEO, while BMD radars regardless if its AESA have to see up to MEO. Radar itself have to be designed specifically for BMD. Even older PESA SPY-1D can see up to 1700km. While newer AESA SPY-6 and SPY-7 can see much further. The only European BMD radar fitted on a ship is the SMART-L radar, but not all SMART-L radar have BMD capability. They need to be upgraded for BMD to see up to 2000km. Only 4 of the Zeven Provincien class Frigates of the Royal Netherlands Navy have this upgrade. Also Aster 30 Block I can only climb to around 25km altitude. It can only intercept ballistic missiles at terminal phase similar to SM-2 or SM-6. It will have to climb higher beyond 100km altitudes to intercept at midcourse. SM-3 Bock IA/IB for example can climb up to 900km while Block IIA can go much further as ICBMs can reach 2000km apogees. Even older SCUD SRBMs can climb up to 200km. To add Constellation class have two towed sonars. It has CAPTAS-4 VDS and TB-37 towed sonar so their is no real need for a bow sonar. The 127mm gun is also replaced by a smaller 57mm gun which can fire air-burst rounds enabling it to counter aerial threats. Lastly having all eggs in one basket like in an integrated mast has a major drawback. Having multiple or all radars in one place is an easy target for an anti-radiation missile. Unlike with Aegis ships specifically Burke destroyers which have 2 X-band radars on the mast and another 3 X-band CWI radars split between the aft and fore on the ship besides the main SPY radar. So even if the mast is destroyed it still has another set of functioning radars.

[@arakami8547]

@@johnsilver9338 Do you have any citation you can provide that says the SPY-1D(V) has a range of 1700km? I've tried my darndest to find a source that says that, all my sources quote a range of around 350 kilometres for a ballistic-missile sized target. Wikipedia says that, the CSIS Missile Defence Project has that listed, and the Missile Defence Advocacy Alliance has that listed. I know listed ranges aren't terribly indicative of a radars performance, I just cannot see how an older PESA could outperform decades-newer AESA radars, let alone nearly match the long range performance of an L-band AESA. The base SMART-L/S1850M is marketed as being able to compose part of a TBMD system, and could track a ballistic missile from 1500km on exercise. The MFRA radar of the base FREMM was also apparently tested on exercise to be able to track ballistic missiles, most similar radars to it are also discovering aptitude for BMD and early warning. I feel it more likely they're deemed not BMD-capable in part because they're not armed with ABMs, and in part because BMD just isn't that much of an incredible concern for European navies. An integrated mast design wouldn't amalgamate all the ships sensors onto the mast, it would simply supplant what was otherwise on the tripod mast. If it weren't for the form factor of the SLQ-32, it would've also provided the ships ESM suite a taller stature, further horizon, and greater effectiveness. Otherwise compared to a tripod design, it should have a reduced radar signature and radar emissions by virtue of their composite construction. Do note that many AESA radars feature LPI capability, its emissions are much more difficult to detect when compared to PESA radars. Connie also will not have SPG-62s, the plan is for her to use the modern ARH variants of the SM-2 and ESSM. Supplanting of the 127/64 gun with a 57mm gun, if anything I cannot say it is an overall upgrade. Though not as capable as the 57mm, the 127/64 though large in calibre is still capable in the anti-aircraft role. I think she also has her own dedicated anti-missile and airburst munitions. Setting its AAW proficiency aside, the 127/64 gun is simply just the best main gun any modern warship can get for NGS and surface warfare. 80km range with guided smart GLR munitions, capable of engaging moving surface and ground targets - that's twice the range of the Mk45s rounds. In regards to my quoting the Aster 30 and SM6 as being capable of intercepting ballistic missiles during their midcourse, only excuse I've got is that I've been awake for the past odd 24 hours. About the value of a bow sonar, that is fair. I do believe its omission does compromise the vessels mine route clearance capabilities however, which I believe towed arrays are not terribly proficient at.

[@odenat3701]

It is not only shipbuilding, USA have a big issue producing 155 mm munitions. Therefore Turkish companies built a munition factory at Texas to help them.

[@jeromebarry1741]

The Peace Dividend from the ending of the Cold War was that a generation of national labor force found something better to do.

[@inspectormills3290]

Very simple: outsource Navy shipbuilding to South Korea. They are masters at building innovative ships. We can then install the weapons we need and, viola, lots of Navy ships. Of course, we'll need to find sailors, but that'll be easy.

[@prind666]

Korea won't exist in 30 years. Also why would you outsource shipbuilding to a foreign country in the first place?! It's downright treason.

[@min-jd5lb]

putting precious shipyards in front of China's doorstep, nice try, good luck protecting it in war

[@SpruceWood-NEG]

South Korea is just a frontline stronghold. It is foolish to place important assets in a country that is bound to be destroyed once war breaks out.

[@solinvictus1234]

If there's Masters at building innovative ships and naval weapon systems that one are the Italians. They have laser/IR/GPS guided ammos and shells on their boats, Koreans don't (nor US or anyone else). They are selling to 90 worlds navies the most rapid 76mm CIWS ever made, the Korean's don't (nor US). The issue here isn't the shipbuilder, but the congress and the US Navy incompetence.

[@Melanrick]

Meanwhile the Chinese Navy is producing a ungodly amount of frigates per year... And their ships are competitive. Might not be the best but with that number advantage the performance difference is just a marginal detail.

[@zulharriansyahsyamsul4024]

they still use stalin doctrine quantity over quality

[@warwolf3005]

@@zulharriansyahsyamsul4024 Yeah, but with so many ships build they are gaining valuable experience in shipbuilding, while US is losing its experience

[@hughmungus2760]

@@zulharriansyahsyamsul4024 modern naval warfare really is about how many VLS you can bring to a battle. Even the crappiest antiship missile will still sink someone who ran out of missiles to defend themselves.

[@sleepyinseattle4615]

This all goes back to the Wall Street / Washington consensus which dominated from the 90s until 2016, that the US “doesn’t need” manufacturing (remember Obama “those jobs aren’t coming back”) because other countries can do it cheaper and “were better at other stuff” ( finance, software, research). Unfortunately, the high skilled manufacturing jobs left along with the low skill jobs, then engineering, design, and research jobs left too, and finally young people abandoned those fields of study. To make matters worse, what manufacturing is left in the US depends crucially on workers who are in their 50s and 60s.

[@SpicyTake]

Good luck winning wars with credit default swaps. 😂

[@TheBooban]

Correct and most don’t remember how this all started. We were supposed to manufacture the products of tomorrow! Like solar cells and wind turbines. But China took all of that too. They lucky if they can keep airplanes and chips.

[@patrickdegenaar9495]

You describe beautifully the problem with outsourcing core competence.. some things shouldn't be left entirely to consultants. Government ministries need core competence!

[@Pushing_Pixels]

It's a self-reinforcing decline. The more competence a government loses, the more dependent they become on consultants.

[@Grafknar]

Outsource the daggum construction to Europe just to embarrass the navy and contractors into getting their sh*t together. Enough procurement problems.

[@Alan-hb8pd]

I think this a good thing. This debacle will hopefully lead to some changes in management in the navy and change the ways new ships are produced. I hope this wakes up high command to do something to do this, and wakes US industry

[@m1910rcb]

Little reason to hope, unfortunately. CG(X) debacle did not solve the problem. Zumwalt debacle did not solve the problem. LCS debacle did not solve the problem. Gerald R. Ford debacle has not solved the problem. Columbia debacle has not solved the problem. Detect a trend?

[@TheMotorGuyDirect]

Doubt it. They will have to get wrecked in a major conflict before they make the changes they desperately need to make.

[@KurnassTwoThousand]

@@TheMotorGuyDirect By then it will be too late.

[@trancamortal]

You either stick to a proven desing, with Minimum changes, like susbstituting some systems by othes close in size, power demands and so, or design from Scratch. But taking a finished design and making It a completely different thing IS foolish. The Navy could start buying short series of frigates built abroad, as stock as posible, while completing a custom design, readying the workforce and attending other projects. Some american workers may go abroad to learn the specifics. Then they could even bring in some foreign workers to start production and helo train the locals

[@kennethferland5579]

I've been saying this for years, just BUY the ships right out of the shipyards of our NATO and Asian allies, they have great designs that do not need to be tweeked in the slightest and they can deliver in under 2 years. Don't let the navy mess with the designing or mandate domestic production untill they have proven themselves capable.

[@paulpowell4871]

Ill say this, My sister tried to get another defense job with another company and she is working at walmart as she never got an interview in spite of her qualifications. Age discrimination is alive and well in the USA

[@danielch6662]

Many other comments here says the whole problem is the navy is woke. So your sister needs to be at home making babies until she is 50, and after that, provide free childcare for her grandchildren. The US needs to hire only white men with square jaws. Then all problems will go away. Yes. Work with only 10% of its population. Ignore the other 90%. This will allow the US to outcompete China. 🙄

[@Gravitatis]

wait what, how old is your sister? like 18?

[@waisinglee1509]

The USN is in a similar situation as the IJN in WWII. It can fight a strong fight in the first few months but it cannot sustain a longer struggle.