Why it's a struggle to get into PbtA games

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

A lot of people get tripped up by the Moves in PbtA games but a lot of people fail to understand how to implement them in the right way. How the universal Moves are Intended to be used is really simple. Players roleplay their characters. IF the player describes their narrative action doing something that then TRIGGERS A MOVE then the GM makes the player roll the Move. Die roll result changes the situation and the Roleplaying continues. The Wrong way to play a PbtA game is for the Player to use the Moves as some kind of action and skill system that they have to look at using like they might do with your typical trad skills game. Players should never direct their roleplaying with the Move in mind. The right way its supposed to go is Its the GMs Responsibility to fulky grasp and understand the action Moves so they know when the players roleplay triggers it. Only the GM can tell the player when to roll. Only the GM can decide when a player triggers a Move. To play a PbtA game well requires the GM to fully understand the Moves of the game so they can best determine a player triggers them.

[@elaineabreu282]

Ironsworn took a bit for me to get grasp. The first time i tried it, I walked away for a few months. When i came back to it it made more sense. I dont know if i could play right without a quick refresher though

[@AndrusPr8]

You don't need to "relearn" the system. The system, is always the same: Players and GM go back and forth, until an action triggers a move, then the GM asks for a roll. 6-: Something bad happens to PC; 7-9: Something good and something bad happens to the PC; 10+: Something good happens to the PCs. What you need to learn are the specific moves, and that's more of a GMs job than a player's. The moves are usually tied to the genre the games wants to emulate. That is, the game is not about simulating specific actions, but about rolling for those elements that are usually relevant in a particular genre

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@@AndrusPr8 I suppose I consider those moves a part of the system in the sense that it won’t run as intended if they are not used correctly. But yes I do agree, there is a mental roadblock myself and others need to find a way to get over if we want to play these games and that roadblock exists because of a d&d/ d20 resolution system bias in my opinion.

[@windmark8040]

Maybe you should play in a few more PbtA games, just to get a better feel for things. PbtA games are typically geared towards the social stuff, with combat 2ndary. And having "moves" for stuff we normally just "do" is kinda awkward. But Moves are "loaded". They're used to push the narrative forward.

[@oettrpg]

I agree - they are super fun! It's a totally different mindset compared to dnd and pathfinder style games.

[@MagnificentDevil]

Moves are an abstraction of a set of abilities and skills wrapped around intent. Abilities and skills are already an abstraction. Moves are a meta-mechanic that abstract abstractions. It is not readily intuitive.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

I agree with everything you said! I would love to get to a place where the moves feel as second nature to me as making a skill check in other systems but I’m a long way aways from that 😓

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

Yea and I think different is good! Half way through my frustration I had a moment of “oh no do I struggle with it because its different? Is that really it? If so I hate that” lol

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

Very well said. Getting down those multiple layers of abstractions can be a struggle. I have had the most success with Ironsworn and it does click faster everytime but it never clicks instantly.

[@M_M_ODonnell]

I often talk about TTRPGs as a spectrum from supporting mechanics-heavy to storytelling-heavy play (with D&D being adequate at both but excelling at neither), but sometimes it seems like there's more of a divide than a smooth continuum. Are we using the mechanics to enable playing a game in a way that lets us build an interesting story, or are we doing a collaborative storytelling session where there are some randomization mechanics to keep things interesting and (in some sense or other) balanced? PbtA games seem built to really focus on that second category; it's just going to be weird and unsatisfying from the perspective of wanting tactical options with defined (so you can actually figure out chances) abilities. I do like some of the families of "descendants" of PbtA more than the original (e.g. Belonging Outside Belonging, Forged in the Dark), but for that whole category of games I really have to be with a group that's comfortable with the extremes of that style of play. I'd have to know the other players well enough that we'd probably be comfortable just telling a story together without rules or a system at all. I have to think of the game system less as mechanics to use to work towards ends than a way of formalizing some unpredictability in a story. When I love it I love it, but I don't always want to do that much work.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

Very well said! This feels like all of the thoughts in my head being communicated in a better way than I could ever say them.

[@xKingLx]

I largely play John Harper's World of Dungeons. No moves, all fiction first with the dice mechanics. Its painlessly easy to introduce to new people.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@@xKingLx I completely forgot I have this and haven’t tried it yet! Thank you for reminding me, I want to give it a go. This looks closer to Blades in the Dark than PbtA which is more so my jam.

[@xKingLx]

@@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming I'd love an update, if/when you play. I love Wodu. Harper also made a hack of world of dungeons: breakers.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@@xKingLx an update? Ooooo that hack is not something I have and will definitely have to check out. Maybe I’ll get a play-through of it going at some point.

[@MagnificentDevil]

I struggled with Ironsworn until I saw Me, Myself, and Die season 2, when the host ran a whole game story arc of Ironsworn solo and watching that, it just clicked for me. I still don't enjoy the other PBTA games for a variety of reasons, I can bust out Ironsworn with ease now.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

Same for me! Although I think it may have been season 1 for me. Between that and some digital ironsworn tools I found. Do you mind me asking what those variety of reasons are for disliking other PbtA games are?

[@DiomedesRangue]

I found moves very clunky as well, I just ended up switching to world of dungeons. I think blades in the dark will be more to your liking.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

For sure! I do love me some Blades in the Dark. I really need to give World of Dungeons more love though.

[@ChanceDrive]

Treat every pbta game system as its own unique system. They have similarities but are not exactly the same. A pbta game has d6s, level of success, and moves. Additionally they are more native over mechanics. 3:11

[@coryburns4309]

I genuinely don’t understand how to play them. I tried with classic old Apocalypse World. And my player tried to persuade a vendor to sell his gun for cheaper. So I went “ahh that has to be a move right?” But NOPE. No move. And with pbta no move = no roll. So… what the hell? Does the guy lower his price? Is it just up to me the GM? That doesn’t seem fair. I don’t get it

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

There are others that may have a better idea than I do but it looks like there is a move for manipulation, bluffing, seduction etc. but that’s it. With that said, it doesn’t sound like situation was narratively impactful enough to justify a move which may have made the game go a little crazy if you did use a move. If it were me in that situation, I would’ve considered the NPC in the context of the story and made a judgement call if it were clear to me. If they were strangers to the npc he would likely say no but if the party helped the npc previously then he may say yes. If I didn’t want to make the decision myself I’d make a GM roll and let fate decide. Maybe even sway the odds if i think its 50/50, Likely or Unlikely by rolling 2 dice and taking the highest/ lowest. I hope that’s helpful, any PbtA gurus out there feel free to chime in.

[@mihaisereanu9455]

PBTA is, granted, less concerned with simulating reality and more with narrative beats, and buying items is simply just not interesting for the setting you played. I'd wager if supplies were scarce in the setting you played in, there would've been a Move for it because the consequence of not having said items will create interesting / difficult situations. And even if not, "GM moves" are just codified ways to respond in fiction - so respond as you think the vendor would. But the implication that, somehow, a Charisma check in d20 games where the gm sets the DC, even perhaps forbids rolling it if it wouldn't make sense is less arbitrary and more "fair" sits weird with me. If there's a GM role in a game, everything is always up to them, ultimately. PBTA is just more codified and upfront about it.

[@copelandcory]

This is such a great example of the mindset of DnD vs PbtA. In DnD you as a GM are kind of a rules arbiter and situation creator. Your players wants something and there are roles to determine the outcome. In PbtA your job is to collaboratively tell a story. If my players said "I want this cheaper" and there is no role, I love that. I can tell them "I could make it cheaper... if you're willing to do a job for me." Everything should be setting conflict and stakes for the player. If it isn't a role then you get to set those stakes! In my opinion this is much more powerful than letting the dice decide.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@@copelandcory i’m going to keep this in mind next time I find myself at a PbtA table. Appreciate your thoughts on this, well said. I do like the idea of that but it’s easy to be seduced by outsourcing responsibility to the dice.

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

Actually yes it is up to the GM and how the GM has decided what the NPCs personality and motivations are like. If the NPC is a conniving bastard than he would make it more expensive but if the NPC is more of an ally than it would be cheaper. You let the Roleplaying of the situation determine how things go. This is no different than any other RPG.

[@AndrusPr8]

Bad PBTAs exist, and usually they fail in providing good moves. Avatar Legend, for example, is more about playing specifically the characters from the series and replay their struggles instead of telling stories about people that would live in the world of Avatar. And the combat system is not really designed with a "fiction first" mentality. I hate it

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@@AndrusPr8 oh no this is terrible news! But it does justify my decision on holding off on diving into it. I do love avatar but i want to play something inspired by it, I dont want to play within the established fiction necessarily.

[@gonzaPaEst]

My friend, I hear you, but it feels like you have the wrong mindset. You are bringing a baseball bat to a basketball game (or whatever metaphor you want to use). Yes, PbtA is fiction-first. No, it is not rules light (some are, many are not, some are not crunchy but chewy with the number of rules). More importantly, making moves (rolling dice) is not about task resolution (can I do it?) and more about conflict resolution (what are the consequences of my action, where does the fiction take us). There are no "failures" in the normal sense. In fact, a 6- outcome might actually be a success with all the wrong consequences and huge strings attached ("you open the lock perfectly and find yourself face to face with a bunch of guards on the other side...what do you do?"). It is the closest RPG to playing a "movie", and that's the mindset. My suggestion: play PbtA games with experienced MC/GM/Keepers and players, and don't think that knowing how to bat a ball is the same as making free throws (aka, playing DnD in the past will not teach you how to play PbtA, so you will need to unlearn/relearn how to play).

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@@gonzaPaEst I appreciate the feedback, admittedly anytime I have the opportunity to play a PbtA game, I am the closest thing to an expert at the table lol so I am yet to be a part of a game done well. I have been a part of many games where 5e GM’s and players are trying to understand this foreign concept. I’ve seen it played well online many times but there is something about it that feels difficult to get to the table successfully. Mind you, cinematic gaming is something I am always striving for so I haven’t given up on the system despite the thumbnail.

[@solmyr42]

Player driven games are the best. Let the rules be and describe your actions. You can describe anything your character might do. How is this a hard sell?

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@@solmyr42 on paper it sounds great but the struggle that I’ve experienced is that the rules are either not present enough or overseeing actions in a way that players are not used to. No fault of PbtA necessarily, I want to say that its really just because d20 roll over + add mod is king and the further you stray from that formula the more alien it is to the general audience. Which makes me sad lol

[@solmyr42]

@ Yea, I want players to forget about the rules at first. Then we add then in after awhile - pbta be damned. Rules do tend to get in the way, until they can be ramped up seamlessly. Pbta dont have patent on "you can do anything & player driven" also.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

@solmyr42 agree 1000%!