Why Mace Windu REFUSED to EVER Duel General Grievous

[@SnapeSnape]

I love how in the Clone Wars mini series Macu Windu skipped a duel with a lightsaber drawn Grevious and just used Force Crush on his rib cage and thats where he got his famous cough. Mace would have rekt him easily.

[@brandonwatkins1206]

force crush not shatter point. But agreed. he wrecked him.

[@GC0077]

That was when Grievous started choking and coughing every 5 minutes, right?

[@SnapeSnape]

@@brandonwatkins1206 you're right! The same thing Luke did to the Dark Trooper in Mandalorian Season 2 finale

[@ChextheVes4451]

Ok, yes. Mace would Rek grevious. But not easily. Just remember, in that instance Mace relied on the force for damage, Grevious does not have that ability. Get them on a 1 v 1 duel, Grevious has a pretty big chance at winning

[@jw5803]

@@ChextheVes4451 “I said no force!!!”

[@Tyrosine0910]

As I understand it, Vaapad is actually more of a force ability than anything else, as it's focusing on channeling the dark energies of your opponents, & you're supposed to be knowledgeable in at least several lightsaber forms (preferably aggressive ones) so you can create your own sequences. I don't believe Vaapad really comes with its own unique lightsaber moves in the way that the traditional forms do.

[@K1ng_Squ1dZ]

Hi dooku

[@NuckBasty]

So is vaapad like the force derived MMA of lightsaber dueling ?

[@monster_mog9328]

@@NuckBasty from my understanding, vayy pad is like how jedi and sith use the force to enhance their abilities. but rather than using just your own power and ability you get a boost in strength, speed, agility, precision and even unpredictability because of your new strength. I would also assume that it gave extra stamina because you are mainly just reflecting your enemies power. so when they start to weaken like palpatine did, mace was still powered up compared to his own max power and even palpatines. so its like draining your opponent and when you and them use up their strength then they start to get weaker while you have their strength and your own so it feels to them like they are fighting themselves and you because in reality they kinda are. also i do like the mma comparison because with the added power and ability they would be able to swing their lightsaber more times than the opponent forcing their opponent to be more defensive. even new/different stances/attack combinations that would/could never work regularly become possible the stronger your opponent and your combined power is.

[@Just_A_Space_Cyborg]

Sup

[@huskiefan8950]

Agreed, it is an ability which requires the force, but windu developed it as an offshoot of juyo, so it does use those(or similar) moves.

[@Yabuturtle]

People really forget that lightsaber styles can determine victory or defeat. Like with Obi Wan who could not beat Dooku, but could beat Anakin, who beat Dooku. Because his form 3 style is a great defense against Anakin's form 5 style. Plus he trained him and had a little luck on his side. Dooku's precise form 2 style is able to pierce through Obi Wan's style. Windu's Vaapad makes him the perfect candidate fighting dark siders, since it turns their dark side powers against them when fighting, hence why Sidious lost to him (and this was already confirmed by George, too.) but was able to stalemate Yoda. Yoda is more powerful than Windu in terms of force powers, when Obi Wan remarked "Even Yoda doesn't have a midi-chlorian count that high.", but Windu is younger and is perfect for fighting dark siders because of his vaapad style. You can be more powerful in the force and not be as good when it comes to lightsaber combat styles. Also, you can be like Grievous, who doesn't know jack about the force, but is able to take down many Jedi that are strong in the force. Obi Wan truly was the best fighter to go against Grievous, given that Grievous had wild and powerful movements, all that could be blocked by Obi Wan's style so Obi Wan would just need to defend himself and then strike when there's an opening.

[@Kira121086]

If bounty hunters have taught us anything, it is that you don't need the force to take down jedi or sith. What made Grievous dangerous was his adaptability in combat and aggressiveness. Plus the ability to wield 4 lightsabers didn't hurt either. Had Grievous been more patient and defensive, he could have beaten Obi-Wan. If you ask me, it would be interesting to have seen Yoda duel Grievous.

[@frankdees507]

Absolutely. One real life example of fighting styles was Frazier who beat Ali because he was such a hard puncher, while Ali beat foreman because he was so fast and tireless, but then Frazier lost easily to Foreman whose reach advantage simply wouldn’t allow Frazier’s hard punches to connect at all.

[@tylerwellman8252]

@@Kira121086 to be fair he did beat Obi Wan in the melee fight. Poor Obi Wan was hanging on for dear life and unarmed. Luckily there was a blaster nearby for him.

[@Kira121086]

@@tylerwellman8252 Hardly. It was Grievous' superior physical strength that allowed him to overcome Obi-Wan. You could tell from the final duel that Grievous was going to lose his lightsabers, hence why he tried to run away.

[@dazdavis7896]

Lmao, Anakin beating Dooku and not Obi-Wan WAS NOT “just because of their forms”…. Nice try though. Anakin rivaled him throughout the entire war, he came closer and closer to defeating him every time they fought. Always fighting to a draw, until ROTS, during which time he’d grown immeasurably powerful by that point and was just far too much for him to handle. READ the film novelization. Directly edited by Lucas himself…. Dooku ragdolled a council master Kenobi every time they met, whether their sabers were drawn or not. Their lightsaber forms had nothing to do with that. It’s not the end all be all. FAR more goes into a fight than just the way you swing your lightsaber. Yeah Vader was probably the best swordsman in Star Wars, but he beat Dooku because he was just too powerful for him to handle by that point. NOT “just because Djem so beats makashi”…

[@countlazuli8753]

This brings Grievous to a level of menace that I never thought of. The idea that his cybernetics are sophisticated enough to mimic something that should be exclusive to the force. Says something about how terrifying technology can be, even in the star wars universe.

[@Milwaukee_Woman]

Perfectly said

[@mattstewart299]

I love legends General Grievous, I understand what they were going for. Its refreshing to see a being like grievous in Starwars, the Jedi and Sith are always portrayed as so unbeatable to non force users. To see a freak of nature that was once a wise and naturally gifted leader and tactician of a proud people rise up to take on the legends them selfs, is epic. Grievous in legends reminds me of the sort Ras Al Ghual was in his first appearance in the Arrow series when he lets Oliver Queen choose his weapons in single combat then WRECKS him. Grievous is just more angry and aggressive but his mind set is more or less the same. Honor to an extent, not that coward shit we got in the clone wars but like the Grievous we seen back in the 2004 cartoon. He would grant a warriors death to those he respected as other warriors. He is a Droid or cyborg but his past experiences and natural cunning plus his cybernetic enhancements mixed with his warrior mind set made him just as fierce as any Sith to a jedi. Legends was the best

[@sergeantsharkseant]

yes long live EU grievous lets hope that it will take a long time before he gets butchered by disney. grievous in legend sis such a great charachter because he is not even all that evil. dispite his extreme hatred for the jedi he only really fights the republic so his people dont starve to death. every bit of his charachter in legends is understandable and human. he is no good guy he is a tortured soul forced to commit atrocious acts. and he is fucking good at it.

[@ElementVoidX]

Grievous is also my favorite non force user in Star Wars I found him so badass, too bad they made him into a coward, to me should nearly unbeatable in a lightsaber duel, but extremely weak to the force as that would balance him out, i know that would make him more into a assassin/duelist, but I still prefer that over the coward we got in the clone wars.

[@michtibaldo7200]

I believe Grievous could've indeed perfectly learned all the phisical moves of Vaapad. However him not being force sensitive to me means that the chanelling effects of the form would not be replicated as #1 these require the force to be understood and used in conjuction with the forms moves and #2 Mace does not directly use the dark side of the force. He chanels it and turns it against his oponent. However it is not wise to freely arm the enemy with knoledge that could strenghten them. So Windu was wise to not confront Grievous alone. I think Windu should lean more on Shatterpoint rather than directly traditionally duel Grievous.

[@generalgrievous2668]

Vpad looks dope soon i will master all 7 form of lightsaber combat !

[@bouncin2207]

But that's the thing, Vaapad shouldn't be possible without the force, and just in a few minutes of dueling, Grievous was able to mimick it terrifyingly close, which shocked Windu because *it shouldn't be possible*. It's a mystery that serves to show how insanely advanced Grievous's cybernetics were.

[@dontbanmerage416]

I take it as instead of using the force to know which moves to make in what order that would be most effective in the situation, grievous started using his computer brain to do Exactly That. It's not that he was using the force it's almost a nod at the 'science kills magic's trope and mace realized that

[@JJSquirtle]

It's also worth mentioning Grievous has actually tried to study the force. Even if he lacks the ability to use it, he can still apply the theoretical knowledge of how his opponents might/are using the force based off other indicators. And this isn't beyond Grievous considering theis entire strategy is to shove as many Jedi into lockers as possible, as fast as possible which has required him to weave through pushes and pulls somewhat.

[@Just_Pele]

Mace made a severe miscalculation, maybe because his Shatterpoint ability didn't work on a cyborg. He should have let Grievous learn even MORE about Vaapad, because that would have terrified Grievous' Sith masters so much they would have seen him as a direct threat and destroyed him themselves.

[@matthewhenthorn3343]

I've always thought of Vaapad as a more of a mind set or force ability than a lightsabre form unto itself due to it requiring understanding of other forms as a background.

[@Bestobject]

One wonder if it’s possible to reverse it and you a Jedi’s light against them

[@davidcox12317]

I like the idea but how would that work?

[@Bestobject]

Sorry for the grammar problems auto correct was quite working properly

[@tsarzamancorpdna]

I dont think so? I mean the light side reinvigorates instead of take or harm like the dark side But its still interesting to think about

[@Gtraulsen]

There is always a balance in the force.

[@nathanhache237]

Yes and no... The dark side is fueled by negative emotion and taking whereas the light side is harmonizing with the force and being balanced. In essence it's brute force versus balance. So when a sith comes at you with aggression you can redirect it against them, but the equivalent for attacking a jedi is to destabilize them by making them emotional. Provoke them to fear or anger and likely they will either become unstable or tap into the dark side. Either way, they will be easier to take down.

[@WillFredward7167]

I suspect that Grievous could have mastered the physical movements, and thereby become significantly deadlier. But he certainly couldn’t have reflected the Dark Side back at a Sith opponent, and so perhaps powerful attacks with the Force alone would have remained viable for driving him away

[@mitchtherevolution]

Exactly when does Mace Windu talk about his battle with Sidious?

[@d3m1g0d4]

Good question

[@lachy3698]

As he goes flying out the window he was talking to himself about it

[@ScrubNigel]

His source is: he made it the fuck up!

[@Historicutuber]

Yeah…that did sound odd to me too

[@JettQuasar]

He didn't want to steal the thunder from Obi-wan.

[@donovandelaney3171]

Grievous’s fight style is the most advanced in the galaxy. A Jedi or Sith would be unstoppable if they could master his form.

[@andrewpaige1194]

Windu was just being cautious, “just in case”, but I think it makes it clear that Grievous definitely couldn’t ever use vay pad, he could just copy physical movements. I think it’s trying to say that there’s no way he could have ever used Vay Pad. In fact, it may have actually been a detriment to Grievous to learn to copy Windus moves, cause vay pad seems like it would always b different, and changing, depending on who ur fighting/their style/darkness/etc, so if Grievous tried to rely on sequences that would work against A on B, or C, or anyone other than A, it may have put him at a disadvantage. I mean, his computer mind wouldn’t ever let that happen, so that aspect is moot, but it just means he would never use the sequence, cause it would never b the proper response to anyone else’s fighting. Windu was being unnecessarily worried and caution, but u can’t fault him for being careful about a danger like that. One thing is very clear....vay pad is not just a technical fighting style, it’s based on the force itself, so the actual use of the force would be absolutely necessary to ever use it, and not just mimic its use in one specific, probably never-repeating instance.

[@Messothelioma]

I like to think that Windu just met his match. Let's be real Grievous had a collection of jedi sabers, he only used his 4 favorites, don't play him for a fool he wasn't a sith but a military General. Mace was smart to end things while he was ahead. Him saying he wouldn't try it again is just a testimate to how powerful Grievous was.

[@Thaumh]

Now I'm imagining an adult Grogu (300yo), with a True Mastery of Vaapad, wearing beskar armor, wielding the Darksaber.

[@-westman3619]

The RotS novelization is always cited in these things, I need to finally read it 😤

[@Soundblaster_the_godfathermerc]

I say if one must be capable of using the force to fully use Vappad then I'm calling Windus version 1 and Greivous's dispite being incomplete Vappad version 2 as version 1 requirement was to use the force, version 2 is one without need the requirement to use the force

[@bobbynelson1110]

To be completely honest there’s a serious plot whole with Grievous being so formidable in combat, he isn’t force sensitive, he would have no way of defending against force abilities. Any Jedi with their salt could just make him float or simply crush is heart with a force choke. I know you could say that’s not the Jedi way but anakin force choked all the time in clone wars

[@CobaltDraco]

It's not a "plot whole", it's simply the fact that in many cases, Grievous reacts to the physical movements that the Jedi take to utilize such force abilities. The fact that such abilities require this physical movement mean that if Grievous can accurately predict the intentions of the given Jedi, he can mitigate their use of the force. Additionally, he would aim to disrupt the focus of his opponents to further weaken their use of the force. As Dooku put it, "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side."

[@CobaltDraco]

@@ShriekingShadow Depends on the Sith. Grievous did train under Dooku and would probably be able to handle any Sith force techniques that were similar to techniques used by the Jedi or any that would be less effective given his mostly mechanical anatomy.

[@grayshepard692]

The original animated series dove into this much better. Jedi have a hard time focusing their force power when they are full of dark side thoughts, like fear, causing them to be unable to focus on using their power and focus more on staying alive. Normally he would approach jedi once that fear and dread from incoming defeat settled in.

[@mercury2157]

@@ShriekingShadow against someone like Vader who could manipulate objects without gesturing, yes

[@andrewpaige1194]

Wait, I thought it was stated that Obi Wan was chosen to fight Grievous because the way grievous fought(trying to keep pushing, and aggressively overwhelm, and finish quickly)actually put him at a huge distinct DISadvantage with not just obi wans perfection of his style, but the way fought in general, especially with the history between the 2, where on top of that, they knew grievous would continue to b fight more and more aggravated, playing right into his hands? Although u would b the one to know/have heard, not me, but I never heard that it was the luck of the draw(the force).

[@jedimastermacewindu6930]

He was talking about legends. In canon I do believe it was Obi-Wan’s lightsaber form that won the fight

[@James-pt2vk]

It was kenobis form in legends as well

[@jedimastermacewindu6930]

@@James-pt2vk Yes but in legends grievous was such a monster that Kenobi’s lightsaber form simply wasn’t enough to win him the fight.

[@James-pt2vk]

@@jedimastermacewindu6930 no he had to let go and be a conduit off the force as well. "BuT dIsNeY gRiEvOuS hAs mOrE cHaRaCtEr"

[@countlazuli8753]

@@James-pt2vk Even though it feels like he has less character now.

[@sebastiannorrington3792]

In the clone wars cartoon mace did encounter grevus and from what I saw it looked like he could have stopped him the clone wars could have ended earlier.

[@tylerwellman8252]

Palpatine wouldn't have allowed it. He needed the Sepratists to be enough of a threat to call the vote for his emergency power. Had Grievious died early he most likely wouldn't installed another puppet.

[@johnathanwalker8395]

When did he say he reached this perfect form against Sidious? As he was falling to his assumed death? He was screaming " THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME I ACHIEVED PERFECT FORM"

[@benjaminpeart2287]

Well Mace Windu did fry Sidious' face with his light saber, and Mace did have Sidious begging for mercy... before Anikan walked in. Think about it.... Anakin really is the one that saved Darth Sidious from getting his f*cking head chopped off, by Mace... had Anakin not interrupted their duel to save Darth Sidious, Mace would have killed him off, that's clearly shown in thier duel in Revenge of the Sith. Mace trashed him with "one on one" lightsaber combat, and redirected his force lightning back at him. Yoda fought him later on and couldn't do half that damage....

[@tylerlyall2229]

Great video like always mate

[@gamedev_turtle453]

Grevious is truly amazing being a renown jedi slayer and does not have the force

[@JarJarStudiosPlus]

Without Sam Jackson, Mace Windu could never have reached such levels of badassery

[@sfsrocketengineer2492]

elo jar jar binks

[@CE77777]

I’ll be real, part of what makes Vapaad so dangerous is it’s combination with the force, grievous’s ability in the force is bottom tier so as much as it would be a force to be reckoned it wouldn’t be anything like what Mace himself can produce, also wouldn’t have the added effect of basically being a dark side users worst nightmare

[@satmtca]

I wish we saw more episodes of Windu leading the clones and also a bit more of Jar Jar

[@BrennySpain]

I always found it weird how in revenge of the sith when palpatine was walking with windu and the others back to the senate but the next scene shows him as sidious talking in a hologram to grevious. It’s so bizarre I think. How could he change disguises that quickly.

[@scottwerner279]

Wel all he has to do is throw on a black cloak

[@BrennySpain]

@@scottwerner279 true lol

[@freelands8355]

Time skip

[@BrennySpain]

@@freelands8355 good point!

[@mitchellsedmak]

I always thought Vapad was just the concept of turning an opponents darkness against them. Surely that could be done with any offensive dueling style. General grievous copying physical motions shouldn't have been such a big dealm

[@sarmadhabibkhan3036]

Lucas: Obi Wan only beat Grievous because of the *"will of The Force"* Me: That sure is a fancy name for Plot Armor

[@gary9346]

Preach

[@Nico-jc7zr]

you mean blaster?

[@jonpalsson4755]

I wish the movies had shown Grieveous for the badass he actually was.

[@midzik48]

Mace Windu reminds me of Jolee Bindo, but more aggressive. Embracing the morals of the lightside, but willing to harness the power behind the darkside without being overwhelmed.

[@QuelTipoSulTubo]

Bindo was probably inspired by him

[@mordredoforkney6185]

Grievous is like a Razorboy's Answer to a physical Adept in Shadowrun. All the weapons, all the cyberware none of the magic bullshit. Just straight up pure physical tech-warrior.

[@l.a.9267]

I don't think it was fear of losing to Grevous that caused Windu to avoid dueling him. IT is confirmed that Windu has a natural affinity for the Dark Side, which is what allows him his ability of Shatterpoint, along with his mastery of Vaapad. It is not something he simply taps into when in combat, but something he spends every moment of every day keeping in check. Windu knew that Vaapad requires a closer connection to the Dark Side than is normal for anyone not already committed to that path, and with the level of skill that Grevous had attained, Mace Windu would have had to give far more of himself to the Dark Side than would have been prudent. Mace Windu falling completely to the Dark Side is not something he was willing to risk unleashing on the galaxy, particularly when there were other options.

[@SauceNinja]

I think a good computer could arrive at the same saber tactics as someone using vaapad, but you wouldn't automatically become stronger if your opponent drew on the dark side, which is a key feature of vaapad. If grievous perfected his alternate version, it would no longer rely on your opponent's fury, and it's already a dangerous style that the jedi are unfamiliar with. It would be weaker than true vaapad against a powerful sith, but superior to kill anyone who *isn't* using the dark side, like droids, clones, and jedi.

[@jmc2830]

one thing that i was always disappointed never made into the movies, or even the extended universe. using the lightsabers on/off switch as an offensive maneuver. basically time it so you blade retracts and passes by the opponents saber then extends giving an illusion that one saber passed through another. don't no, never felt like the jedi/sith use there weapons in the most optimal way, like their art was developed for a different weapon with different core properties (which it was). things like sabers being treated as weighted weapons with inertia instead of weightless ones with little or no momentum needed for movement.

[@ElementVoidX]

I saw another video that explained that, and it was something along the lines of neither the Sith or Jedi thought it was a honorable way to fight, it is basically seen as a cheap trick that anybody can do, and therefore regarded as shameful to do.

[@liamfowell8661]

You've already answered your own question. Vaapad is a state of mind, it's a stance in the Force not a sequence of moves. to affect the Force you need to be able to wield or at least touch the force. Grievous cannot touch the Force so therefore cannot use Vaapad at all. All he can to is mimic Windus sequences and so cannot use Vaapad.

[@scottalderson4708]

He would never be able to master Vapaad. In order to use it one uses the darkside against the opponent, you do that through the force, of which Grievous can't manipulate.

[@Soundblaster_the_godfathermerc]

True but Greivous would eventually if completed mimicking Vappad expect using the force cause he can't use it, he would have made a version 2 of it for non force users to use and we know Greivous would rub it in Windus and the jedi and the sith face that he made his own version of the form that works without the force

[@UniqueExistance]

"Grievous walking in with four purple lightsabers and vaapad" *Doom music starts*

[@matthewmann8969]

What if Dooku made Mace push up daisies by either besting him with lightsabers or overpowering him with the force on there final duel in Boz Pity in Legends Material?

[@Messothelioma]

Grievous is basically a cyborg (not sure if he's actually considered one in the universe), he has sentient thought, but also has flawless read and execute ability as a droid. I do not believe he even realized he was using a fighting stance, I believe Mace just found a foe that could match him line for line and the mirror spooked him, for Vaapad was an extension of Windu tapping into the dark and light side of the force. Grievous had a lightsaber collection after all, it was his preferred method of personally dealing with jedi. To me this adds backbone to how legendary Greivous vs Kenobi was.

[@goldeneye1689]

If it truly utilized the force's emotion, then he may not be as powerful, but if it is just stances then Count Dooku's dueling skills may look like a Jedi Knight in comparison

[@tyberzann101]

i havent watched the video yet but im guessing its because it will awaken memories of an alternate timeline where grievous wasnt just a Saturday morning cartoon villain and was actually menacing, causing windu to go into a rage and crush grievous' lungs with the force.

[@shenzhendrake2429]

but i watch Starwars Clonewar cartoons 2003, and i saw Mace Windu would force crush Grievous's chest that is why at beginning of Revenge Of The Sith, Grievous coughts everytime. he lose to Mace Windu

[@monkeysk8er33]

Vaapad definitely requires Force sensitivity. Even as it's master, I don't think even Mace fully comprehended it, he was just the one who actively studied it. Mace's actual saber style technique doesn't look all that different from some of the other forms. It's just a few tweaks he made to existing styles, but it could be that it requires his Shatterpoint ability to use properly. Again, Force sensitivity likely required.

[@jbirdtheultimategamerttv]

wait didn’t Windu force crush Grievous??

[@i7583]

Legends

[@donovangoldsborough2970]

Yes

[@ShadeofGaz]

They did grievous dirty in ep. 3

[@alexinfinite7142]

Good lord that is scary. And imagine what would happen if that kind of knowledge escaped Mace Windu? The galaxy would have had another huge problem let loose

[@matthewshafer9545]

I don't think Grievous was a master of any sabre style, though he does state he was trained by Dooku . Grievous use of Vapan occurred because his combat system analyzed Mace's attacks and then calculated the counter attacks necessary, which isn't mastery or skill . It resembled vapan, but only occurred because Mace used vapan against him and his defense system analysis was to counteract with a similar attack pattern . Furthermore, he doesn't use vapan or any style against Kenobi because Kenobi used a force to attack immediately after igniting his sabre, which Greivous's combat analysis didn't understand leading him to advance on Kenobi with his 4 Sabre's attacking in a pattern that Kenobi easily countered, taking 3 sabres in the first minute causing Greivous's combat analysis to recommend retreat .

[@obsidianfrost9514]

He was also warned by Dooku to run if he ever met a Jedi he couldn't intimidate due to how suceptible he is to the force in his droid body.

[@jamescousins9216]

... I'mma keep it real: Grievous using supercomputers to out-duel Jedi is an aspect of his Legends mythos I am very glad got cut in the reshuffle for Disney Canon. It cheapens both ends of the equation, showing a lack of understanding of the technology vs. nature theme of Star Wars. Think about it: If Grievous could out-duel anybody in pure lightsaber combat because a program coded by someone with no experience in the Force gave him a mathematically guaranteed course to victory, why didn't Vader or any other Sith in the Empire get those same modifications plugged into their skull? Why didn't the Rebel Alliance try to steal that technology and make a super-soldier? Ah yes, because the one weakness of this technology is "The Will Of The Force". The most blatantly plot-armor expression of the fantastical side of the Galaxy Far, Far Away. This whole business of Grievous copying Vaapad is a perfect example of how backwards that all is. As many others have pointed out, Vaapad's a Force Ability, a mindset. Just copying moves shouldn't get the same result because it doesn't involve the symbiosis of the Force the technique is supposed to utilize. People complain Grievous in the Clone Wars was too weak and something of a joke, but when you look at this nonsensical power fantasy character the new version is frankly more reasonable.

[@brandonwatkins1206]

it never said the will of the force made obi wan win. Obi won won because his fighting style was perfectly suited to beat aggressive fighters like grievous and Anakin. he could outlast people. He was literally THE MASTER of the defensive style. Perfectly suited to beat grievous and outlast Anakin/vader

[@Porkradish789]

Mace would also use shatter point to absolutely destroy grevious, he is quite literally a droid.

[@donovandelaney3171]

Wow! Mace feel one hundred feet and didn’t break a leg. Like a boss!

[@MaxWelton]

Because he’d rather cut right to the point and Force Crush him.

[@mikes8116]

I love how the greatest lightsaber duelist in the history of Star Wars, Master Mace Windu, crippled Grievous with the force.

[@Kaidofan-n4r]

That non canon anymore(: And also mace windu run away from general Grievous in labyrinth of evil

[@JS-td8yp]

The clone wars TV show and Revenge of the Sith did General Grevious so dirty. He's such a terrifying and powerful character but is just made to constantly run away all the time

[@brandonwatkins1206]

the Cartoon Network version of the clone wars made him amazing. Mace crushed his lungs there.

[@therealwilldalbey]

I think if he recreated Vaapad, it would have been a new variation, as Vaapad is a variation in and of itself. It is based on the original seventh form, Juyo, which is meant to channel their own dark energies, and changed it to channel the opponent's dark energies and use it against them. Grievous wouldn't be able to do either of those, but could recreate the movements. It's not enough for true Vaapad or Juyo, but he could make his own form based on them.

[@aedwardsss]

I love that Star Wars is exploring the dichotomy of the Force. Vapaad technically turns Windu into a Gray Jedi temporarily.

[@jbdougy9290]

Refused to??? Windu DID duel General Grievous!!!

[@SENazo-co9pz]

Do you mean the original Clone wars show

[@Blue_Herbatron]

The original is not canon

[@SENazo-co9pz]

@@Blue_Herbatron that’s what I mean

[@snakemaster2735]

That ending was adorable

[@alejandromorgado9002]

Think of it like this, the winner could be either or. Grievous is like task master where he copy his opponents physical moves. The way mace uses vaapad is through force, like dr strange’s powers. Grievous could indeed counter maces moves but if mace is able to channel vaapad he wins, as vaapad is not a fighting style but a force technique

[@taylor-bg7ug]

what i dont understand is why jedi never used the force to kill grievous. it makes sense why they cant do it to other force users because its said that force users block the attacks with a force shield sort of thing but grievous cant do that so surely hes vulnerable to the force at all times?

[@bighorn6964]

That's why he attacks quick and will retreat once they use the force on him. Using the force tires out the user and they use the force to fight with a lightsaber

[@fasthackm]

Obi-1 made his duel with Grievous look like he was having a good time :>)

[@Natedog-gx3nj]

Mace Windu falling out the window, writing about how effective Vapad was against Sidious 😂

[@TheStopSignStealer]

GG just opens a google doc writes everything down then highlights it all and clicks copy and then just does to his data and just clicks paste 💀

[@TamptheChamp2]

Great video, but one point confuses me. How could General Grievous have had a cybernetic brain if he wasn’t a droid? My understanding was that he was a Kaleesh who had something very similar done to him as was done to Anakin Skywalker after he lost to Obi-Wan.

[@Psycho695]

He was the prototype medical procedures to design a suit around living organs. I think it was critical and ultimately leading to the Dark Troopers. Anyways, I thought Grievous' Eyes, Heart, and Brain were intact. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe he just has implants in his brain or something???

[@rojorj17]

@@Psycho695, no you're right. Grevious still had organic parts. Obi-Wan exposed his heart during their fight and eventually shot him in his heart to kill him.

[@TamptheChamp2]

I’m just curious to know what was done to Grievous’s brain that wasn’t done to Anakin’s. As powerful as Darth Vader was, he would not have been able to begin to mimic Mace Windu’s lightsaber style like that.

[@rojorj17]

@@TamptheChamp2,could be several factors, but I think that two main ones stick out (at least in my opinion, lol): 1: Vader's body still had a lot more flesh than what Grevious had. About the only thing organic left of him was his heart, brain, and most likely lungs. Vader still had at least part of his arms and his entire torso on up. Grevious was well over 90% machine. The 2nd thing falls along the same lines, but it's still a physical or mechanical if you will attribute that Grevious had over Vader. Grevious was clearly fitted with better parts and technology. I read somewhere that Palpatine purposely fitted Vader with subpar equipment. Part of that was supposedly to make Vader suffer for his failure to defeat Obi-Wan. Another part was to basically keep Vader physically and mentally enslaved within his suit. As powerful as Anakin was and could have been when he was whole, the suit still diminished his true power, which made him less of a threat in Palpatine's mind. Palpy had no intention to allow his apprentice to become the master.

[@brandonwatkins1206]

He had a cybernetic brain alongside his own and during serious fights they would be in contests with each other. Grievous wanted to do one thing and the computer brain told him to do something else.

[@coleblack784]

General Grievous mastering Form 7 would have looked like a robot with four arms swinging around laser swords, I'm pretty sure.

[@noxregall3599]

If Grievous had the power of the force that shit would be alot scarier

[@K1ng_Squ1dZ]

I would like to see these two fight

[@SirWhig-esq.]

So Mace didn’t fight Grievous to stop him from mastering Vaapad.

[@GiRR007]

If windus vapad is a "sphere of purple fire" grievous with his 4 arms would be a god dam rainbow colored tesseract 🤣🤣

[@BlackWingedSeraphX]

Nah this is full of it. Mace would have MURDERED Grievous, faster than Obi-Wan did and without a blaster.

[@DarthVelos01]

this must ONLY include stuff from the show bc in the book Labyrinth Of Evil when Grievous kidnapped palpatine windu DID fight him, on top of a moving train actually, and then when Obi-Wan is leaving to track Grievous down Windu talks to him about what it was like to fight him

[@hazzah5572]

Varying opinions in the comments section. I will say though that the new Clone Wars kinda threw General Grievous... not scary at all... just comical and over the top compared to Ep III. Could have developed him some more. Would have been great to see him duel Mace. Apparently they are bringing Mace back in Mandalorian, long overdue as the injuries he sustained could be survivable even in the real world, let alone in Star Wars where people can be thrown down a reactor shaft... cut in half... eaten by monsters... burned & dismembered etc. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they brought Tarkin back to life. But what we really need to see is another team up between Mace and Obi Wan. So good in CW and Ep II. Imagine old Ben and old Windu fighting Vader and the Emperor.

[@JoniukasVader]

Force Fear

[@daniell1483]

I like Mace, so learning about his thoughts about fighting Grievous is interesting. But I do want to say one other thing, Mace's "victory" against Palpatine was a false one. Palpatine was orchestrating Anakin's betrayal of the Jedi, he had the process of mastering apprentices down so well he actually wrote about it and codified the do's and don'ts. Palpatine, essentially, took a fall in order to push Anakin into taking a step too far; nobody in the Jedi would understand or forgive his disarming of Mace and this is exactly what Palpatine was engineering. So I'd love to see a rematch with both fighters playing for keeps, but I think it inaccurate to say Mace beat Palpatine when Palpatine intentionally threw the fight.

[@gtrman69777]

He took one for the team.

[@BG-xn5tu]

Eh debatable. Samuel Jackson and George themselves say Mace won 🤷‍♂️

[@daniell1483]

@@BG-xn5tu If you read the novelization of the Prequels, especially the fight between Mace and Palpatine, Palpatine was paying more attention to Anakin's state of mind than Mace's strikes. He was so confident that Anakin would turn to the dark side he let himself be defeated. He wanted Anakin to see Mace, the master of the Jedi's Council, betray the order's own principles. Anakin pled with Mace to give Palpatine a fair trial but Mace refused and went for a killing blow which prompted Anakin to disarm Mace. It was theater to show Anakin that not even Mace held to Jedi principles of justice and fairness, not to mention Mace's emotional attachment to the Republic (don't forget Anakin frequently being chastised for having emotional attachments). Mace won the fight in that Palpatine put down his saber, but lost in every other way that matters.

[@BG-xn5tu]

@@daniell1483 I tend to prefer what George Lucas himself says over novelization. No shade to the novels. They are very very good for the most part but that doesn’t mean their depictions are the most accurate

[@arielp9442]

@@daniell1483 Youre smoking some serious copium. George Lucas is the creator of Star Wars, anything he says, is fact. Windu stomped Palpatine in their duel. Anakin had to intervene, since Palpatine was a few seconds from death.

[@richv1893]

Technical mastery of the form yes, but complete mastery of it No, as not having a connection to the force would ultimately prevent total mastery.

[@dylanmccormick3685]

I don't think he could've mastered it at any capacity or actively use it but he could blindly mimic the motions and directly mimic sequences in Windus technique which would probably be enough to give him a distinct edge against most Jedi in single combat, therefore the call for Windu not to engage Grievous in single comment was definitely in everybody's best interest.

[@jeffreywolfe1723]

This topic like many you cover have been talked about extensively already.... Mace Windu knows Vapaad and didn't want Grevious to learn it. Plain and simple

[@duwanglover3424]

Imagine how enraged Dooku wouldve been if Grievous started to use Vaapad. He already hated Grievous using lightsabers, but to see him also use a form he found to be sloppy wouldve been a sight to behold

[@centhegibbon8220]

Reminder that Mace's victory in single combat was not to Palpatine's plan at all. He fully intended upon winning the conflict himself.

[@anthonyriordan2391]

I feel like a big noobie but my only understanding of Star Wars is from the 3 trilogy films plus Rogue One, those are all I've seen (other than season 1 of The Mandalorian which I barely remember) but back to the point I had never heard of Vaapad but it sounds awesome. Maybe they mentioned it in Phantom Menace or something but it went by me. I always thought that purple saber users could by a sort of hybrid of light and dark and this confirms that my theory obviously was thought of a long time ago. Now more to the point of the video... I think if GG was a force-using master of Vaapad he'd be virtually unstoppable, having both organic and robotic qualities along with the force and the ability to wield 4 light sabers at once.. Good luck with that. Maybe Palpatine/Sideous could take him out but no Jedi or Sith Apprentice like Vader, Maul, Kylo Ren, or even Dooku, and he's my favorite dualist of the Sith apprentices.

[@aaronbloomer4387]

If we are talking straight up lightsaber to lightsaber than it would be a strong contest. Mace Windu was a master of all forms of combat as well as Grevious with his cybernetics. Also, Mace Windu uses shatter point (which Grevious can't), this would definitely turn the tides into Windu's favor. Also, if Mace decided to use the force during the fight which he was use to doing he could just crush Grevious again.

[@5TailFox]

Grievous: (Crashes through window) Palpatine: (falls to the ground) "Son of a bitch, how dare y-Oh..yeah, that's right. Oh no! It's Gen. Grievous...Help!"

[@dazdavis7896]

Mace Windu did not “grow exponentially in power” , he was already 50 years old at the start of the clone wars. There is a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE between honing latent or atrophied skill, and actually growing in power. You do not grow in direct strength anymore once you’ve reached physical maturity; you’ve already got all the midis you’re going to have. You’re not gaining anymore depth. Range/knowledge & skill sure, but actual depth/strength, no…. It is the ease of access of your full power that improves as you grow, not your full power itself…. Anakin had far more direct strength than Yoda and Sidious, but THEY could access THEIRS with a lil less effort than he could. That is the difference. And when the hell did Mace Windu ever state he “only ever achieved full vapaad against Sidious” , when did he have the time to jot that down…. He literally died 30 seconds later….

[@boserboser6870]

For perfect vapad against sidius i assume he was the perspective character and that it was a thought he had

[@chandlerclark5372]

Bruh lmao 💀

[@hello-gy6xk]

Yeah, I don't like that aspect of this video. I feel like a lot of what the stupendous wave is saying in this video is just him adding in random fluff words to reach a certain video length. Even on 2x speed I was just waiting for him to get to the point.

[@1990hondacivic]

I mean he basically can use a knock off vapad since he has 4 arms and if we base this off of the 2d clone wars he’s really fast. There’s your answer

[@talisredstar1543]

When did this happen? was it a comic? if so what comic? because I don't remember there ever being a time where they faced off. As far as I remember the closest they came was in the mini series when Windu gave Grievous his cough. And that wasn't a duel. What I always wondered, if Grievous was "this" powerful? then why did Dooku both with blade, and words proverbially whip Grievous's butt when they fought? No I don't think he could of mastered Vaapad. Maybe form VII to a degree, but Vaapad was more than lightsaber combat. And we have to take in affect that Master Kenobi was THE master of Soresu, and its form is about becoming an impenetrable wall, with the most efficient moves so that their stamina would outlast any other duelist, and Soresu masters could then strike when the Opponent either faltered in stamina to make mistakes, or when their impatience over took them and left opening for the Soresu Masters to strike.

[@hello-gy6xk]

Vapaad is both a force ability and a lightsaber form, Grievous absolutely could and would master it as a lightsaber form; however, grievous would not be able to use the force ability aspect of vapaad of creating a loop around darkside energy and channeling it back around.

[@Bawz99]

is there any legends explanation as to what's stopping force-wielders from immobilizing grievous using the force in combat? or even just crushing him? he shouldn't be able to prevent it himself right?

[@peabrain6872]

maybe he’s just too tough, or they think he’s just too cool to kill

[@brandonwatkins1206]

They were scared. He created an aura of fear and made them tapping into the force harder.

[@Lego-Joe-1]

It would be cool to see Grievous with a purple lightsaber.

[@shadowknight0979]

I think Grievous could have mimicked Windu lightsaber form and would have made Grievous more deadly. I also think that Grievous would have mastered Juyo than Vaapad.

[@SirKanti1]

Jedi : It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together IT engineers: It's just computer code stuff.

[@matthewboyette7094]

I think windu was extremely close to being a dark side user espy when you consider his mistreatment of anakin and his use of overwhelming force when going to arrest the chancellor which seems like something a smith would do Jedi didn’t use overwhelming force on opponents

[@kevinkerr333]

I believe if General Grievous had mastered Vapad he'd be unstoppable. Mace Windu from a strategic point of view, did the sensible thing by not fighting Grievous again. Aside from the fact, that in the only time they met Grievous was able to adapt to Vapad simply by using his cybernetic brain to mimic each move Windu used. This absolutely shocked Windu to his core!! I'm sure if Windu & Grievous were ever to duel again; Grievous would be fully prepared to copy Windu's style of fighting downloading it to his memory banks completely. It is without a doubt, that Grievous would have definitely exterminated the Jedi Order; a feat that Darth Vader was almost able to achieve.

[@brandonwatkins1206]

too many different writers. but kit fits made him look stupid and obi-wan beat him easily. also, Dooku constantly beat him. So I don't agree. Mace also didn't use the force in that duel in a offensive way. As Grievous doesn't use the dark side, Vaapad would obviously be less helpful however force crush is a thing and Mace destroyed his lungs.

[@Adamatronamus]

Everything sounds so ridiculous.

[@peterdubinsky5389]

I just think it’s strange that Dooku never even tried learning or doing vapaad in hindsight

[@PartialDemon]

The only advantage Mace had against Grievous was 'Shatter Point'. Vapad relies on turning the enemies own dark side power against them. Grievous didnt use the dark side, thus reducing Vapad to nothing more than aggressive attack patterns which the cyborg could easily dissect and counter.

[@SteveCowlishaw]

To those having a "Vaapad" drinking game, I feel for you!

[@eaglesalldayable]

I think it's possible... but he would have to enjoy the fight... and concentrate and always stay at focus... Grievous wasn't that Decipline but he is full of surprises... witch is why I think it's is possible for him.. Mace saw that and they're a reaso. Why he chose not to fight him because he knew he would learn something everything Mace Felt,saw and said about something happened has happened and he knew his place was not to fight Grievous.. because the man was different from The Siths In fact if you ask me Grievous could have become a new type of Warrior Not Sith and not A Jedi and Not even Force Sensitive..

[@joelstalcup2464]

Regardless of Grievouses duelling ability if Windu elected to use Force powers against him the he would utterly annihilate him.

[@Charles36.]

General grievous with that enhanced brain is a martial arts genius that just shows the forces and everything in technology can catch up. That's why I've always liked Darth Vader he's like a mix

[@mikeserna3342]

Without the Force Vaapad is just another lightsaber style. Yes it attacks at different angles with different sequences, but what made it so powerful was the Force Connection. The more powerful the Darksider/Sith/ whatever ....the more powerful Vaapad would be. So if Greivous mastered the style.....it would have been a style without heart......effective....but no more or less effective than say a Master of Makashi, or Djem-So.