Why Magic: The Gathering Cards Get Banned

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[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

I am giving away a complete set of the Warhammer 40k Commander decks plus some surprise Collector Booster Boxes to lucky viewers during my next stream! Just tune in this Tuesday, December 12 at 10am PST at www.whatnot.com/invite/tolariancollege and also get a $15 credit just for signing up!

[@Kingnothing7x]

You know what, I just might

[@jaktmarius]

Locked for the countries whatnot have listed I take it?

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

Blood for the Blood God that is awesome!!

[@xelab1090]

That's unfortunate, most people work 9-5

[@thelegendarysolocard]

Can you do a video on the explorer format, you do such great in depth videos on formats and i love your enthusiasm.

[@truegamerking]

I remember when magic used to have negative power creep. Tgeyd print a card, it would be crazy, and the community would say "well, we will never have something else like that again" then if they printed something similar it would be more reasonably costed or a lower impact effect. Mayve it was crazy because it was a new card design and they didnt know exactly how to propetly balance its cost. Maybe it was fair at the time of printing but as more cards came out surrounding it, then it became too much. Either way the direction they are going now is unfortunate.

[@mattm7798]

Haha, yeah, I remember that too, but often, most of that were simply broken cards like ancestral recall or swords to plowshares being redone at lower power levels. Not a 4/4 for 4 being nerfed to a 3/3 for 4.

[@ninjaman0003]

The biggest issue to me isn’t that cards get banned. It’s the increasing rate of bans needed. If the designers don’t start holding back, mtg is gonna have a yugioh issue where cards will need to be multiple times better than the year prior.

[@LuciusAmadeus21]

You’re not wrong- each of the sets that come out just produce more and more powercreep, and at the rate that these new sets are coming out- it’s getting ridiculous

[@ICANTKLUTHCHxx]

Especially since the power creep feels so not needed. I feel like there is a fun way to play the game no matter what color you go with or what commander you want.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Yugioh needing constant bans sucks but it is also because there are no separate formats so they are basically playing Vintage all the time. Plus it still has a huge player base in spite of it. Regionals can reach a max of 2k players. It isn't an apples to apples comparison, but if anything it shows WotC that the current audience is more willing to take bans.

[@sampletext7925]

It feels like some formats already got there. It really turned me off of the game when I realized I'd have to pay hundreds just to keep up with the speed & power of even tier 2 decks.

[@IzzetTempo]

I’ve come to terms with the fact that that’s probably the future of the game. There are so many demands on them to make new cards and especially w Universes Beyond, where there’s extra pressure to make the cards playable, I think we’re just gonna see increasing power creep

[@annevarmint4659]

Just wanted to note, between 15:30 and 15:40 it seems like an old cut was left in the video, jumping from 'play desi--' to a retake of the same segment. That said, I appreciate the video! As a perennial jank-player I have very little to weigh in on with the state of bans, but the crafting of the meta definitely changes the shape of the game for those on the cutting edge, and it's nice to get insight into the structures surrounding it.

[@CorsairJoshua]

(I swear that they leave a mistake in every video to make people comment about it)

[@Leevodevo]

There's always this guy no matter where u go lol

[@truegamerking]

@@CorsairJoshua good way to get engagement

[@crackcorn0404]

It's almost like they're pushing so much product out the door that they don't have ample time to properly play test cards.

[@ScarletAsmodai]

Wasn't part of their new FIRE design that they stopped being overly cautious about the impact of cards developed for standard on eternal formats and decided that to make impactful sets like Modern Horizons it needed to shake up the otherwise incredibly stale Modern meta? In a way it's by design, but it's moderately acceptable with this new B&R philosophy if executed diligently.

[@TransformersBoss]

As if they actually devote the resources to play-test. Remember the interview where the designers of MH2 were like “did we test that? We tested that, right? I think so…” wasn’t that great?

[@cameroncorrado3935]

The fact that they openly admitted that they never considered using Oko to target an opponent's permanents should tell you exactly how little time they have to properly playtest cards.

[@blakechagnon8837]

BINGO

[@tinfoilslacks3750]

As if WotC has employees competent enough to playtest well anymore regardless of the time they have. "We never considered using Oko's transform ability to remove enemy permanents". WotC's current playtesters are just a bunch of low quality midrange biased commander players.

[@ViridianSunrise]

When Prof was talking about cards that get unbanned but don't end up good enough, I couldn't help but stare at that print of Bitterblossom just over his shoulder...

[@AZDeathMetal]

Prof, I love you and your videos. Whenever I'm going through intense stress or bouts of anxiety/depression, your videos provide a nice little getaway. Thank you for doing what you do.

[@theportlyone]

The bans in recent times were mostly warranted. It just shows the acceleration of power creep to sell more faster

[@starnik]

I really only trust Gavin and the Pauper crew with their bans and testing, and I greatly appreciate the articles he writes letting us know their in-depth thoughts. All the other formats just seem like an unfunny trash fire.

[@dariocampanella7992]

yes, their interest are genuine and importantly nobody will tell them what to do for the sake of revenues.

[@samc5019]

I'd imagine a minor contributing factor to more bans these days in Magic is also that there are simply more cards, and more formats for each of those cards to get a chance to be broken in. Something I see players misunderstand a lot is how card bans (and nerfs in digital CCGs) aren't solely about power level. They can also be about the overall effect on the meta, match-up polarisation, or unpopular or uninteractive play patterns. I'm mainly a Hearthstone player these days so that's where all my examples are from, but... The Caverns Below wasn't necessarily as broken as some other bans, but it still warped the meta to a ridiculous level because while it was easy to beat if you had the right deck, it meant you were exclusively playing either Caverns, the deck that beat Caverns, or the deck that beat the deck that beat Caverns. Wild Big Priest isn't a high tier deck, but it was recently nerfed because it's had basically the same play pattern for far too long and it's one most players HATE playing against, because it's uninteractive and has a highly polarised win/loss rate. Sometimes they're even pre-emptive because they discover in playtesting, too late to make changes, that a new card has a problematic interaction with an old one. That also doesn't just have to be due to power level; Dreadsteed was nerfed ahead of Defile's release in part because their interaction was something the game engine couldn't handle at the time.

[@TLG1255]

Dang! Really good well made video!! Thanks for the info! As a player getting into more formats right now this is very helpful!

[@oblivion45602]

My hope is that if this Standard and Pioneer transparency to bannings clause is successful, they'll implement a similar schedule to Modern with a particular focus to straight to Modern sets.

[@flamedragon07]

Good old jace the mind sculptor. 2011 wow. I am happy i can use him again. Also locus of creation love those cards. I think the only issue with bans is the most op cards get them. Its the only reason bans happen. Its frustrating that all the good cards get banned.

[@pathkeepers]

It felt so weird for him to commend WOTC that he needed two takes! 😂😂😂

[@epicjuicebox]

I know it's kind of a different conversation, but I still want Prophet of Kruphix back in commander. He's not so bad.

[@joshua_lee732]

In all honesty the B&R update should happen a few weeks after each Major event like a SCG Con or Magic Fest/ProTour

[@TheSteffChris]

I am very interested how the unbanning of Smuggler Copter is going to turn out. It is not a one card wins every game. Its „just“ a very good card that gives nearly every deck its own engine to dick for cards. If it had a color in its identity then I dont think this card would be relevant in any ban discussions. Its basically the Fable that every other deck was missing.

[@reaven73]

Dick ist ein unanständig Wort 🤫

[@GrayVMhan]

I'm gonna say I'm "dicking for cards" the next time I cast a draw spell

[@themantyf1116]

I am probably an outlier in the fact I am not so adamant against banning or shocked by them. They are a tool for the game. They shouldn't be too frequent or abused, but is not unreasonable to curate the health of the meta and of the game experience. It should not be such a taboo. And when the bans are too frequent the issue usually is not the bans, but some underlying issues that the bans are necessary to fix (like a design philosophy that seems not to have any regard for the effects on constructed formats, or to learn from past mistakes). I also sympathize with the financial blowback of having a prize rare you just bought banned, but I can't help think that the companion argument is that it means a significant portion of the playerbase must have been until then simply priced out from playing, and it seems to me a much bigger issue.

[@GraemeGunn]

Yes, Copter is going into my aggro deck for SURE

[@TheDanteBoots]

I'm just sad that I built the mono green deck played it once with a friend then woke up to it being completely devalued and worthless 6 months later. I invested into pioneer thinking it would be my forever format and I wouldn't need to check in on it for years at a time. It's crazy how one card being banned can make the other 71 cards practically obsolete.

[@MCC17011]

I view bans as a bandaid solution, one that is 100% on the heads of WOTC. Needing to ban a card should be a mark of shame, and the fact so many are happening lately should be a concern in general. That said, I think bans shouldn't be perpetual and reevaluated frequently. I know it isnt WOTC, but how do people feel about Primeval Titan in commander? He is absolutely strong, but it's been over a decade since it was banned and I don't feel like a 6-drop that tutors for utility lands or strong ramp, neither of which are usually impactful until their next turn, is ban-worthy any more.

[@tinfoilslacks3750]

Bans in commander arent real because it's not a WotC endorsed competitive format.

[@sheaandrus-oak6546]

As players of the format we should easily identify a problem card it's our info that world looks at sometimes I don't think any of them even play the game to be honest

[@PatJamma]

The best time to ban Karn, as well as ANY wishboard cards, is during set design.

[@MightiestBeard]

I'm too "new" to really have a big opinion about the specific bans, but as a video gamer I'm well aware of balance patches which present themselves as BNR in MTG. Lots of times balance patches are needed to make a game more interesting so in theory I support making bans in MTG, but your arguments against them are very valid. The good thing about MTG in paper is that if you're not playing an official tournament you can just say "eff the banlist" and play what you want as long as everyone at your kitchen table agrees. Or you can even hold No Ban List events. So in theory I'm supportive of making bans, but I definitely agree that they should be surgical. Thanks for the video. As someone just getting back into MTG this was really educational about yet another layer of this amazing game!

[@Audentior_Ito]

It's very hard to make serious arguments against bans in MTG simply b/c of how many different formats there are. Discover is annoying, but fine, in standard... but ruinous for pioneer. Meathook is barely run in pioneer, but was crippling in standard. I'd much rather robust banning than format-specific sets (i.e. Modern Horizons) or never releasing interesting cards.

[@eulefranz944]

The pod vs twin video was my favourite too:) cedric and patrick are also very cool guys

[@angstony459]

March to 1 million! 918K so far. Let's Go!!

[@mattwesto]

Finally someone put it into words. I hate bans. It devalues the cards and your constantly having to check those lists.

[@alch3nemy394]

I'm less concerned with how it effects the value $$ of a card, but rather more concerned with how bans effect the value of the game.

[@KarasuTheClumsy]

I hate that I'm more excited for b&r announcements than new sets these days

[@gpgp9198]

I want my Jitte back in Modern...

[@MichelDevost-e1l]

I miss storm deck I have a good memory with storm ability😔☕

[@sheaandrus-oak6546]

They know things and stuff we don't be on the look out for artifacts that say I win the game in the next few sets

[@nickraupp6104]

My banning bad beat story is buying into Twin as a broke college student and not getting to play it before it got banned 2wks later. Other than that specific experience, I've had a generally positive experience and perception of bans, especially in Modern.

[@thomasstenson7989]

I've never been in favor of bans. I look at those cards and situations as a challenge.

[@troublemaker9899]

Type 1: Banned because they warp the meta in an unhealthy way. Type 2: Someone in management thinks they can make people moral by banning cards.

[@aikk.3933]

Cards are designed to play with. But if they are badly designed or tested - they deserve a ban sometimes

[@alch3nemy394]

They belong in kitchen table magic,

[@tomsmith4698]

I love bans. i would like them to happen far more often. They always hit cheeseball cards that are way overplayed and boring.

[@ClanCrusher]

Banlists are a result of design failures. I certainly don't expect WotC to get it right every single time, but it really makes you wonder about their standards when you compare the 2006-2016 bans to the 2017-2023 bans. Are the products being rushed out the door without adequate testing? Can't say, I don't work there, but it damn well feels like it.

[@declanmcnaron1690]

I agree, but I'm curious how the amount of cards banned compares to the amount of new cards being printed. They have certainly ramped it up so they have more opportunities for card design fails

[@lucasash9992]

I think something important to touch on is that there were absoloutely cards that you could argue SHOULD have been banned in standard during that time period. Siege Rhino comes to mind. I'm personally glad they made the change to hit cards more frequently.

[@trdl23]

I think there were actually plenty of cards in that period that needed to be banned. Brine Elemental, Bitterblossom, Reveillark, and Bloodbraid Elf were absolute atrocities of design that would have gotten the axe by today’s standards and made their formats better for it. (And I say this as a guy who cast a LOT of Bloodbraid Elves!) Let’s not use rose-tinted glasses about their conservative B&R philosophy back then. However, 31 bans in 6 years is completely unacceptable. “Move fast and break stuff” as a design philosophy has become perilous in gaming as a whole.

[@TheAntiCosmic]

In all fairness, Magic is over 30 years old, that an enormous amount of design space that has essentially been blocked off in a way that makes creating interesting new cards and mechanics extremely hard without just straight up power creeping or breaking some existing mechanic. They definitely have less excuses for standard but there is basically 0 precedent for a tcg sticking around this long and not developing a healthy ban list and its share of power creep

[@richardsmith9615]

@@trdl23 Completely agree with you.

[@FacGame2501]

Because people complains in Twitter, that's why

[@robertcsakany8268]

Because eight fucking bears is too strong

[@alexandrelumia4946]

My issue with Magic since the realased of Eldrain IS the powercreep of cards. Before this set to win a game you has to play with strategie. My feeling now is that you Can just play the one Big card before your opponent and win.

[@madmanvarietyshow9605]

I kinda think that cards should have a grace period before they get banned at least. Like 3-6 months at least.

[@RibusPQR]

That sounds like Teferi's voice on the trailer.

[@jamiesangster9350]

Jissy Prof bro, please take Rudi to Tolarian Academy, he needs some tutorage in this shrewd wisdom of yours 😅

[@Timodj13]

Power creep in R&D is a real thing

[@johnprovenzano-nb4fz]

You need to mention how WOTC will NEVER ban a chase mythic while a product is still in it's main print run (see Oko, Meathook, One Ring....... and on and on....). So don't worry about buying a chase mythic in the first 6 months of a product MINIMUM!

[@beverlysaylor1115]

As an old player who’s favorite format was legacy, has WOTC basically given up on Legacy? I noticed there was no mention of it on the B/R topic at all

[@lucarioknightb7685]

The Shuffle Up and Play episode where you pitted different standard decks across the game against each othet was so neat. Fun to see the cards interacting as they did at the time, rather than in the modern mindset.

[@DevStarkiller]

The constantly shifting B&R announcement schedule has always confounded me. Seems easier to just say "quaterly on the 1st of the month".

[@alch3nemy394]

Monthly, is better.

[@marcoottina654]

@@alch3nemy394 monthly is chaotic, it doesn't allow dust to settle down. Every 3-4 months is better imho, since players have time to build up, build around and stabilize the overall ecosystem of decks.

[@alch3nemy394]

@marcoottina654 maybe your right, but I do think Wizards needs to be far more proactive

[@joshuaweifenbach815]

Dockside Extortionist needs a ban in commander.

[@joel767]

Mind's Desire was banned when Scourge debuted....

[@mariomalacara6916]

I love these bans because they don't affect EDH. They just make the cards cheaper.

[@MrZarin1337]

Karn wont drop because ots a modern Staple too. Good for me🤣

[@Earthboundmike]

I'm extremely cynical and think coptor got unbanned because how in gods name would that be banned but orcish bowmasters AND the one ring isn't. Also it helps with the bowmaster.

[@charlesjames5486]

Love the content as always. Really wish you'd start doing more pauper videos.

[@trdl23]

With Swiftspear banned, the format might be playable again!

[@helfiswelf]

Thanks professor for the update. I was around when channel was banned and mind twist and these were not crazy expensive cards but today having dockside or ragavan banned instantly sucked my pockets dry for sure. They should have to let consumers know their cards will be losing value because WOTC banning them. They know now they can create problematic cards, we all buy them and use them, they ban them, we sell them, they unban them then reprint them, then ban them. Why do they make MTG suck in so many ways. Just stop releasing so many sets and get a hold on the game again. Calm the eff down already, we are broke on yer bs.

[@kelseyo402]

Are you referring to a hypothetical ban on dockside and Ragavan? Ragavan is only banned in legacy and dockside isn’t banned in any format. They did give a bit of a heads up a week before the announcement of which decks/archetypes were getting hit. I think many people sold based off the hints.

[@shuichi28]

What cards are band in commander? It’s the only format I play I’m just curious I’m kinda new to magic c:

[@jacobmoorman6323]

Geological appraiser needed that ban. It gets to the point whenever I see the card in arena I just scoop. It's got way too much value by itself. Don't get me wrong, discover and cascade are good, fun mechanics, I just don't want to sit through an hour of someone exiling their deck to hand pick every card just to see it all come back ordered to how they please.

[@kodepop]

I'm all for bans, it's stupid when there is only one deck dominating the format. It would be cool, though, to have a completey open format (casual) that there are competitions for.

[@rklammer]

*Cough* 2006-2016 inclusive is 11 years

[@bryanbousquet8547]

I think while cool all the the evoke elementals from MH2 should never have been printed…along w/the one ring and orcish bow masters but here we are

[@uuu12343]

*laughs in Yugioh periodical banlist change*

[@shawnjavery]

Jokes on you we got one outta the blue the other day and it was glorious.

[@wavesofbabies]

14:37 This unfortunately doesn't work in practice. Not without an alternate to banning at least. If certain cards are not banned from a format, you paradoxically see *less* cards seeing play. Because when good enough cards warp formats around them, it suffocates out niche strategies and archetypes with bad matchups. Like you see it in this video. Rakdos Scam is 20% of the metagame. How many decks and archetypes are choked out from modern because that one deck exists. If you want a format to have everything be legal, the best solution I've come across is Canadian Highlander's points system. While definitely cumbersome and less simple, it gives players the entirity of magic to play with whatever cards you want (though having the same banned cards as Vintage like ante and conspiracy cards), just gives a limitation on how much of the most powerful cards you can play with to promote deck diversity and overall format health.

[@ConFusi0n]

I'm pretty sure the assumption contained in that "ideally" is that no cards would be banned because nothing would be so powerful as to need to be.

[@Rathammergames]

Fully agree, bans are a necessary evil and you would need a lot, a lot more playtesting in order to released totally balanced cards. I do not mind bans.

[@Xoulrath_]

​@@RathammergamesI don't mind bans either. The issue that I have is a card like Fury, which was clearly problematic for a LONG time, taking Wizards TWO YEARS to be banned.

[@Beckola44]

There are a lot of cards more powerful than Up The Beanstock. Thank you for the video Professor.

[@alch3nemy394]

In a vacuum beans is arguably almost a bad card. The fact it replaces itself is what breaks it.

[@TheFirstTriplefife]

This game starting to look more and more like yu gi oh.

[@user-gj1lb6xp3t]

Still angry I can't play The Cheese Stands Alone 😓

[@BasketChase98]

I started playing mtg around 2015 with shadows. Sorry guys, it’s my bad, all these bannings only started once I got here, I’ll see myself out.

[@marzix427]

Bans aren't a problem. The price of cards is the real problem. If all cards that have been banned were $1, you wouldn't see people so worried about the ban

[@MadMewMew-mu3eq]

Well, when there's a busted new card, that's because it's in a busted new deck. Eye of Ugin was useless except in the Eldrazi Aggro decks. You had to make a new deck of Eye of Ugin. So even if it costed 35 cents, you still need a full deck of 60 cards to go around it, which is never going to be highly cheap.

[@marzix427]

Printing more cards alleviates the cost though.

[@Xoulrath_]

​@@MadMewMew-mu3eqdude, if every card was a dollar, then it'd be $60 for a deck. If you can't afford that, then I don't know what to tell you.

[@MadMewMew-mu3eq]

@@Xoulrath_ Yeah but shelling out $60 every time a new set comes out is still going to add up really quickly

[@Xoulrath_]

@@MadMewMew-mu3eq again, I don't know what to tell you. I would fucking LOVE to be able to buy every card in the game that I wanted for a mere dollar a piece. Hobbies cost money. I'll be the first to tell you that I think that the cost of Magic has gotten fucking ridiculous. But it still costs money. It doesn't get cheaper than an average of a dollar a card.

[@lonsmithicus]

It would be nice if you showed the correct image for each card on the banned timeline. Especially curious but couldn't read the Type 2 bans and the art is wrong for Zuran Orb.

[@ospero7681]

...could you repeat that, please? Because the way it's written, it makes no sense to me. The Zuran Orb he shows is the MH2 printing - if that is "wrong", so is the Channel he's showing (also a printing from decades after the card was banned).

[@heath1948]

Problem cards only get banned when wotc sells enough of the new powerful cards to make serious money

[@richardsmith9615]

Unfortunately true, think it says a LOT that they banned appraiser, which is a £0.50 uncommon and not Quintorius, which is another extremely fast single card combo (Which arguably is even harder to interact with)

[@nathanp9684]

Daily Check in for 1Mil #1

[@RiverChaos]

Wait, WHEN DID WARHAMMER ENTER MTG?!

[@lonsmithicus]

Stoneforge Mystic being unbanned is one of the main reasons I don't play modern anymore so I strongly disagree with that card being fun for players being unbanned is terrible.

[@Leevodevo]

What I don't understand about how this new B+R system is going to work is when a card is needed to be banned but it's because of a new card that came out. For instance fury was a really good card in modern and got banned because up the beanstalk made it way more powerful in that build. Now under the guise of this new system, let's say we have a card that's not really played in modern but a new card from a new set comes out enabling the older unplayed card to be busted OP, but the new card is quite balanced, then the only way to fix it would be to enact the emergency ban on the new card and wait a year for them to consider unbanning it and banning the card that actually made it the problem?

[@alch3nemy394]

Furys problem goes way beyond upthe beanstalk. Being able to drop a 3/3 (4/4) doublestrike creature on t1 is a huge issue. Plus it simply wipes your opponent s board going 2, 3, 4 or more for 2 cards.

[@Leevodevo]

@@alch3nemy394 I am aware, hence the for instance using it as a example of a card that's been an issue for a long time and just now received a ban

[@ttt3142]

1 - the Fury example is bad since the top deck (20%+ share) in the format did NOT play Fury and Beans together, the continued dominance of one deck in the format could be have justified a hit on its own, IMO. 2 - I don’t think they ever said anywhere that they couldn’t ban older cards in the post-set-release ban window

[@Leevodevo]

@@ttt3142 ahhh that's how I interpreted it then that makes sense if the release, then ban window, doesn't apply to just cards from that set.

[@streetsoldierhood9796]

I blame power creep.

[@dominikskeries]

i don’t care about pioneer or modern but legacy and vintage need unbannings

[@rdmages]

As a primarily yugioh player, hearing anybody say that banning cards is a BAD thing, a negative for the game, is so mind blowingly absurd that I had to take a minute to process it. There's people who think that way?? Really??? I can't understand valuing personal 'investment' into cards over the health of the game. That line of thought is super foreign to me.

[@sethstephens4777]

well i mean bans are b etter than letting the game or format suffer . but the ideal solution is they woudlnt print the busted cards in the first place . but yea h i cant imagint eh the idea of someone thinking of bans as a good thing . its basicaslly the game equivalent of reshoots . or bugs. it means someone f#cked up

[@ClanCrusher]

I think you may have missed the subtext of what the professor was saying. Having the game in a state where certain cards have to be banned is not a good thing, and that only gets worse when those bans happen without warning.

[@cultmecca]

Standard should be designed in a way that things do not need to be banned in it. It is a rotating format and it used to be that way

[@tom.prince]

I don't think players generally think that any particular card being banned is a bad thing. But, rather, the complainant is about the printing of the cards needing a ban is the bad thing. It is something like "Yes, yes, of course you should ban that card (and should have banned it sooner, even). But you shouldn't have printed that card in the first place, it is 'obviously' broken and you should have known better".

[@richardsmith9615]

@@ClanCrusher Bans NEVER happen without warning. Everyone knew Karn, Yorion, Lurrus, Winota would be banned for a long time before they did. Nexus of fate etc etc... If you're reasonably self aware and not ignorant they are never without warning, just without warning from wizards. But being aware of the state of the metagame is usually a VERY good indicator about whether something will get the chop. Sheoldred is currently running standard, the card costs £300 for a playset, people should be intelligent enough to realize that a card with a 50% metashare and a price of over £50 for one card is in danger of either, being reprinted into the ground, or being banned for homogenising the meta. It shouldn't come as a surprise if it got banned, not that Wizards' made any announcement that it will.

[@biofear182]

So with that being said: Unban KCI? XD

[@bazejkaczorowski6213]

Swiftspear [*]

[@bradensorensen966]

Because the evoke elementals are only fair if you can’t interact with them while they’re on the board. This all could have been fixed if they had “shroud” whenever they’re evoked. Oh well!

[@Xoulrath_]

I said the same thing within the last month or so. All they had to do was give the damn things Shroud in addition to Evoke. Seeing as how MH sets don't introduce new mechanics, they couldn't make a "new" Evoke. A ton of text is inelegant, as well as adding a lot of text to already text heavy cards. But Evoke and Shroud, what an elegant solution to fix the brokenness of the Evokementals. I'm not sure that Fury would have been saved by this, but it would definitely have saved Grief (which some people still believe will end up banned).

[@LuciusAmadeus21]

Karn was extremely annoying in pioneer….. (coughs in using Karn)

[@KicKAzzBMTH]

Agree (I’m a Karn user)

[@FONGOONGOtheREAL]

I don't have much time so I have to play mostly online at arena. What is annoing at arena is that you end up playing against the same deck all the time due to being so strong and this is just boring. I don't blame the people who play the deck, every one likes to win and some of the decks might be fun to play, but if you see fable in 7 out of 10 games it is just not interesting anymore. I like longer games where you don't know who will win at the end. Thats why more balance is needed in the game so there is more variety in decks. A big THANK YOU to all the deck builders who build non meta decks. It is so much fun to play against really good decks. What should definitivly be banned are unfun win conditions like second sun, what ... is this, i play a card twice and win the game no matter how the board state locks like.

[@ForeverLaxx]

I laughed when they refused to call it "Rakdos Scam" and insisted instead using Evoke in place of Scam. I wonder why they don't like that word... Anyway, Wizards wouldn't have to be so ban-crazy if they'd stop printing cards that do everything you could ever want just to guarantee product sales. But that ship has sailed by now.

[@richardsmith9615]

Scam has criminal connotations, It's understandable that they don't want to use controversial language when announcing.

[@ForeverLaxx]

@@richardsmith9615 Controversial, lmao.

[@richardsmith9615]

@@ForeverLaxx No, I mean from PR standpoint, they always prefer to stick to legal jargon and formal language, rather than slang terms and informal language.

[@ForeverLaxx]

@@richardsmith9615 My original comment was being facetious anyway. I know full well why they wouldn't associate the word "scam" to their game. I just find it hilarious and prefer to think they won't use "scam" when banning a card they kept telling everyone was perfectly fine and healthy because it promoted interaction. You know, how telling everyone to buy Thing from them because Thing is good, then outlawing Thing once you've got everyone's money? Sounds like a scam to me.

[@richardsmith9615]

@@ForeverLaxx 🤣

[@imposifle9792]

this is so weird to me lol. I come from Yugioh so i always want as many cards banned as possible, in order to improve play experience

[@atz104]

Yeah that isnt the solution. U shouldnt print powerful cards in the first place. Powercreep is what fucked ygo. Rotation in mtg used to orevent that, but wotc just keeos releasing bombs and thats not good

[@imposifle9792]

@@atz104 oh no yea i absolutely agree that they shouldn’t have ever existed, but like, if they wont stop printing them, then they need to ban more aggressively

[@remigusker6024]

Karn getting banned took a weight off my heart. Finally I can play artifacts without having to run Karn myself, or having to worry about nonstop silver bullets from the same deck regardless of what I try to play. I love you as a character Karn, but your card can piss off.

[@flowstonealchemist]

This is pauper erasure lol

[@Kat13196]

I do not like bans, especially in commander where it feels like they just don’t ever review taking cards off that list like sure some stuff are good like shaharazad but others really need a review, it’s been ten years let my guy rofellos out of jail already please

[@danieldragotti2608]

Sigh. I pulled a Fury the day after its banning...

[@FlintG]

Sucks, my one friend was pretty upset that it got banned since he had a couple .

[@davidhansen5067]

I would wait to sell it. It's still a playable and powerful card in other formats, the market will recover a bit from this correction.

[@alsoreddeadguy9083]

What was your opinion on the new trilogy of tennant episodes? I really didn't like the first one, and found the second one pretty dull aswell - The Giggle was fantastic though, absolutely love NPH, and his performance was fantastic.

[@chrismccreight8207]

As a modern player I’m glad fury is gone; it was too good at stabilizing high risk strategies and punishing early small creatures and beans just was too strong with some of the evoke/domain/etc cards. Although one of the key cards that powered the bean decks was fury so 🤷‍♂️

[@MoeEpsilon]

"Why should I buy all these new powerful cards if they're likely to get banned out from under me?" *cries in yugioh*

[@Imanmagnet00]

They need to do a Yugioh and have more frequent lists. How something like Karn stuck around for so long is beyond me. Even at the reign of something like Tearlaments or Dragon Rulers they attempted to slap their wrist while the sets were being sold still and after their time in the sunshine they'd get the ban hammer full force.

[@RanOutOfSpac]

No one should ever do a yugioh

[@Imanmagnet00]

@@RanOutOfSpac Playing the game can be a chore but their reprints and lists are doing some good work

[@RanOutOfSpac]

@@Imanmagnet00 That’s cool, I’m just not sexually attracted to it. I don’t think anyone should be.

[@DiabloTraeluz]

5:22 This is a very familiar feeling to a Yu-Gi-Oh! player, or, really, any player of a card game that primarily "rotates" via bannings and unbannings.

[@themoops4006]

"Its two most popular non-rotating formats" whats a pioneer?

[@p.alterego3424]

its simple. you need to get new money into the game. otherwise this system collapses. bcs think of this way, you need stronger cards every edition, otherwise noone buys new cards. and if noone buys new cards, then the company doesnt earn money. but bcs the new cards are stronger, to be more interesting, the old ones decline in value. bcs they are bad compared to the new ones. but people dont like decline in value, so they stop buying at all. so they ban everything unbalanced and bring new unbalanced stuff, to let the grind continue. and people pay shit ton of money for a colourful piece of paper.

[@mtgpoland]

I'm a fan of one-of restrictions instead of out-right 4-of bans.

[@Xoulrath_]

Same. I've been asking for a Modern Restricted List for a while now.

[@magicalex2346]

⁠​⁠@@Xoulrath_I think that would be cool, as long as they still use the banned list for certain cards. Like restricting hypergenesis isn’t much different from banning it. Though I do think a lot of cards on the banned list could be moved to restricted. Especially with cards line second sunrise having legal alternatives in the format, and the reduction from an 8 of to a 4 of was enough

[@Xoulrath_]

@@magicalex2346 so basically my stance on it is exactly as you point out. You largely make Modern have a Restricted List, allowing ALMOST everything to be played. For the absolute few cards that could be problematic even as one-ofs, you still have the traditional Ban List. Obviously I'd love to see all currently banned cards, Fury included, get restricted, and go from there for determining the few cards (like Hypergenesis) that might need to be banned. Pioneer would stay as is with a full Ban List.

[@snoozer0101]

well standards gonna be a shit storm of overpowered nonsensical b/s glad I never started. the ideal ban time line is once every 3 months Its a good length of time to see how cards adapt/change/warp the game but soon enough that it isn't a plague ruining peoples time, AND you'll see it coming, if we want something that's a reasonable amount of time. personally I'd like bans once a month but eh. a year is too long.

[@danielcurren2119]

If bannings are becoming more frequent, and power creep is looming, broken cards need more costs, errata’s and limits. For example, pantlaza can only discover once per turn

[@SomeNativeOfficial]

Need to be like Yugioh with regular Ban List updates with emergency Ban List used for cards that broke the game.

[@TransformersBoss]

Meanwhile, the Commander ban philosophy: if a member of the RC got stomped by a card once, BANNED! Also, they don’t like “why is this banned, but not this?!” Also, Companions work, but Wishes don’t. Them’s the rules!

[@CunningLingu1st]

This is primarily what’s made me reluctant to try Commander/EDH in paper, despite enjoying the recent venture into Historic Brawl on Arena. I’ve played Modern, Standard off/on, etc and every format has their “deplorable, but not illegal” combos, gimmicks, or whatever. Nowhere else have I seen the level of mental gymnastics that fanatical EDH players use to try and convince people that an arbitrary list of cards you got thrashed by are “game breaking, unfun, poor design, and promote toxic gameplay”.

[@norrock1]

Considering the fact that's there's a ton of whiny crybabies that would rather complain about a card being to good rather than figure out ways to beat it I've got a simple solution. Take standard, pioneer, modern, vintage/legacy, and commander and create a subformat for each. I call it Wild West. In these WW subformats there would be no banned or restricted list whatsoever. If a card is in a set that's legal in the format then it's legal. Period. Tired of not being able to play Lutri or Primeval Titan in commander? Well Wild West is for you. Want to rebuild your Birthing Pod deck in modern? Wild West. Basically if you want to play your cards in any format Wild West is the way to go

[@Timorio]

Neech.