Why Meta Knight Was BROKEN in Brawl, and How He Changed in Project Plus

[@monsterhunterdude569]

I don't see people mentioning much how Metaknight was the one character who can glide twice.

[@Eichro]

Funny how different was the approach Sakurai took in nerfing MK in Smash 4. He still feels largely like Brawl MK but his range was gutted and the most ridiculous stuff was toned down (up air endlag lol). That along with universally removing glides made him pretty balanced.

[@ZachHonest]

Changing his Up B was big too/removing his glide

[@Eichro]

@@ZachHonest i mean everyones glides were removed. If anything MK got a very good up b in its place

[@DisabledsDie]

​@@ZachHonestmeleé & 64 characters are The Worst.

[@sage64thecrystal]

he's called META knight for a reason

[@Nikolas0269]

The Meta

[@The.eternal.sillyness]

Yep Exactly what I was thinking

[@mainescapade]

His sworddive was broken, but it was so goddamn fun.

[@Mixa_Lv]

1:04 MK's attacks have transcendent priority, which means that they just ignore any other hitboxes (they cannot clash/clank with anything). This means that the attack's range will greatly determine which move will beat out which, and well, MK has a sword, but some characters (like Marth) can technically outrange him.

[@brandondillon5762]

Funny thing about the Marth thing. That's actually a bad matchup for Marth if I recall. Lol

[@honathan2135]

​@@brandondillon5762it's meta Knight, everyone has a bad matchup against him

[@brandondillon5762]

@honathan2135 Well of course, some of us have actually played the game competitively, instead of just being a smart ass on YT.

[@honathan2135]

@@brandondillon5762 lol

[@brandondillon5762]

@@honathan2135 👍

[@nicholasstocker8864]

*Meta Knight when he got nerfed in PM & P+:* Oh no! Anyways…

[@malignantpootis213]

Here's a fun fact: After the end of Brawl's competitive lifespan, players would discover that Fox of all characters had a potential winning match up against Meta Knight. And _heavy emphasis_ on potential as Meta Knight's edge guarding and air camping can heavily abused against him. Fox does have some useful tricks against him like his jump height, a very strong neutral and lasers that can rack up early damage fast against a heavily camping reliant MK and his dAir confirms into up smash for a quick kill. It's surprising given his final tier placement in Brawl, but his curse of being one of the only fast fallers in a game where everyone else is floaty and his linear recovery can be easily shut down. In conclusion I'd say it's a 55-45 at the very closest in MK's favor, but a 60-40 is a more fair assumption. I mained MK in PM and definitely felt the effects of his nerfs. I get his top tier placement in P+ because of the transition to a rushdown focus with a great air and air-to-ground game, but he's still the defacto short range glass cannon of the archetype. I'd put Meta Knight at either 4th or 5th in a P+ tier list with Donkey Kong and Wolf being some of his hardest match ups.

[@agentblackbird9435]

The best character in Melee potentially being able to fight the best character in Brawl is so poetic

[@oOTheMastaOo240]

I wish they went this route with mk moving forward from brawl rather than making him rely on touch of death combos in smash 4 in ultimate

[@lapplandkun9273]

What do you mean? Smash 4 was objectively the best thing they've done to him. He was busted in Brawl and unfairly broken. He was so campy and unfun that he was the large part of the reason why Brawl's metagame got gutted. Nobody wanted to see Metaknight dittos camp or camp against icies.

[@oOTheMastaOo240]

@@lapplandkun9273 mk wasnt fun to play against in brawl because he was very broken Mk wasnt fun to play in smash 4 because he was dash attack/dash grab into ladders the character and you often die in 1or 2 hits Instead of making him a one dimensional touch of death character I would have much rather preferred if he played like an actual fully fleshed out character like he was in brawl, but obviously nerfed a ton. Smash 4 got into a theme of making characters one dimensional like luigi mk dk etc that carried over into ultimate Playing against a good smash 4 meta knight was extremely unfun. My region had a player named Oatmeal that was known for how good he was at ladders. And playing him now in ult kinda sucks because being good at touch of death combos is whats most important when playing him. Its over centralizing and not fun on either side IMO

[@austinsroche]

Some misinformation in the video: -Brawl MK's throws were actually just positional throws, they rarely combo'd, still really good though. -It wasn't mentioned that Brawl MK could activate his glide without using upB, it was incredibly broken and a big part of his recovery and scrooging under the stage. -Brawl MK's bair was still good at edgeguarding. -MK's sword is longer than Marth's, MK just doesn't have long arms and Marth has better moves to contest the space in front of him/they linger longer as well. -Dthrow doesn't really chaingrab people, unless they hold in on the move. -His diving dair was removed in 3.5, he had a dair similar to his brawl dair in 3.5 (like a weaker version of the 3.6 dair). -Nair doesn't have increased range or knockback in PM, it was much stronger in Brawl. -Instant dimensional cape doesn't really hit like a truck, it's a kill move for sure but it's moderate at best. -Dimensional cape only has one frame of invincibility, besides that his hurtbox is massively extended. -His moves are still transcendant in PM, which is actually a bad thing: he can't clank moves and then win the scramble with his faster frame data, can't clank projectiles either.

[@THP22342]

Nah I disagree, Dimensional Cape does hit like a truck especially compared to Meta Knight's other moves in his moveset. I also disagree on Meta Knight's Bair being good for edguarding, when literally all his aerials were good at edge guarding

[@austinsroche]

@@THP22342 Yeah any mk move was good at edgeguarding in Brawl. Compared to bair, cape has higher kbg but lower bkb. It eventually outstrips bair but the move typically won't raw kill. In a game with horizontal finishers like ZSS bair, Ganon bair, Mario fair, DK's fair and many other moves it really is a moderate kill power move. 3.6 cape definitely hit like a truck though, back then uthrow -> cape killed half the cast. It only kills about 10-15 now.

[@jaysonevans9107]

They always say that Meta Knight was broken, but they never explained why. Thanks for explaining why he was so good and not just "he was so good"

[@hellosunshine2292]

did we watch the same video? because literally the first half of it is showing off how broken he is LOL, nice troll mate

[@rain-jl9zb]

@@hellosunshine2292respectfully i dont think you read the comment correctly

[@LowIntSpecimen]

​@@hellosunshine2292 reading comprehension is not strong with this one

[@willleach4948]

0:32 Fox was ranked SS tier in the Melee Twelfth tier list (December 10th, 2015) FYI

[@matthewjarvis1053]

I also came here to say this

[@phorchybug3286]

At least Brawl made the cool one broken.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

Brawl and PM/P+ were the only games where Meta Knight was cool (despite being completely broken in the former). Smash 4 and Ultimate just boiled him down to Up Air the Character.

[@RationalFunction]

Side B: The Character.

[@lapplandkun9273]

Yeah, a broken mess is totally cool

[@King_of_the_Shrooms]

Know my Power! I loved playing Brawl Meta-Knight

[@TheWhiteDeerGrin]

Bro when i was a dumb little stupid kid that played brawl 24/7 and didn't checked the internet, because we didn't had wifi at that time I had no idea Meta knight was broken on Brawl, i just played as him because i loved the character

[@TheWhiteDeerGrin]

It made me remember a story honestly A year ago, or two, I went to a convention with a lot of stuff with videogames, and one of the consoles you were able to try out was the switch, that had ultimate on it When I was finally able to have a turn, I picked the inkling because I love Splatoon, the thing was I still had no idea how to use the character, so the other players kicked my ass I was able to play another round and decided to pull out the character I used the best, Meta knight I ended up winning with a sudden death

[@leafostuff]

Ima be completely honest and say that as of today Meta knight is actually still SS tier but is actually not the unanimous best character, last september there was a new tier list for brawl and some stuff has changed

[@Newbmann]

I remember when meta knight hade a busted stall and fall down air in PM good times.

[@aplsed]

12:14 The dive was in 2.6, not 3.5. It was actually removed in 3.5

[@ZachHonest]

memory slip on my part

[@austinsroche]

It was also in 3.02

[@hamie96]

It's funny that Brawl Meta Knight is the perfect case study of how not to ban a character. The Brawl committee waited over 3 years to decide to ban the character. Now by this point, most high level players already decided to pick up the character because he was absurdly better than any other character. So what did all these high level players do when he was announced to be banned? Well they boycotted the events that he was banned at. You might by saying: So they boycotted majors for brawls? Well this is where the Brawl Committee really dropped the ball. Turns out they didn't communicate with the TOs for these majors to weigh in on a blanket ban across all majors leading to some big events having him banned and some events not having him banned. You can guess which one ended up doing better for attendance. The whole spectacle ended with the ban being completely ignored within a year.

[@paulakroy2635]

metaknight wasn't absurdly broken( in the context of brawl once ledge camping was banned). That's a misconception alot of players have. The reason he was so picked is he's the only character that was fun and provided players with lots of agency. Other characters are kinda like that but alot of them have either poor match ups vs unfun characters in brawl (fox in brawl is a prime example of a character doing well vs meta knight but being so bad vs chain grabs that it's just not fun to play). He also has a super low skill floor so that also made midlevel play filled with metaknight.

[@Athorment]

@@paulakroy2635 He is broken in a game where half the cast is unfun. Both things can coexist (Kind of like How Bayonetta was super fun in the Sm4sh engine... but once Ultimate came in and buffed characters, she is no longer super ahead of the curve). Dont "revise" history like that.

[@paulakroy2635]

@@Athorment I’m not brawl meta knight is massively overrated. This is from top players.

[@hamie96]

@@paulakroy2635 I don’t think it’s a misconception, he is by far the strongest character of all time across smash games and invalidates most of the cast even without ledge camping. The real misconception is that banning meta knight would fix brawl’s meta when in actuality it would just make Ice Climbers and Dedede the next best gatekeepers due to their infinites.

[@honathan2135]

​@@hamie96if mk was banned dedede would still be in the same tier place btw

[@paulakroy2635]

I remember mew2king said that with Brawl's current ruleset he's not SS+ tier and ice climber are close to his level. He's massively overrated and the reason he was so popular was because of how fun he was. Still the best character in the game though. Quote from mew2king. "Ive openly stated my opinions since 2008 to present consistently, that most of the viable characters in this game besides mk have a boring gameplan. Example - I'm also a top ddd/falco/ike in brawl, but i found fishing for chain grabs (sideB/ftilt/bair/grabs for ddd and cg and camping for falco, basic sword spacing and jabs for ike) to get repetitive and boring to me. Brawl Marth i disliked (i actually only like marth in melee, and switching between both marths was negatively affecting my melee marth too much [such as tipper spacing on the moves] so i dropped the brawl marth quickly), and if you watch me in Ultimate or other games you'll know i dont enjoy projectile/item-based characters. Mk was the only character in brawl i truly loved, and there's inaccurate judgments/stigmas about the game as a whole i wanted to clear up as well."

[@paulakroy2635]

on the flip side brawl metaknight ruined the one thing brawl really had going for it which was a diverse set of stages. This is taken from Coney but basically because Brawl didn't have alot of combos in general the stagelist could have been super diverse to include insane things rainbow cruise

[@thehale_]

I always liked how Meta Knight being busted in Brawl was pretty much true to how strong he is in canon

[@Dhampire1976]

Kirby fanboy logic lmao

[@thehale_]

@@Dhampire1976 Better than being a filthy Mileena fan 🤮

[@Dhampire1976]

@@thehale_ not really lmao

[@arbalest327]

​@@Dhampire1976so you just came back with the "nuh uh" XD

[@Dhampire1976]

@@arbalest327 it works well enough when dealing with children lmao

[@TonyXCancer]

just found a new couch for pmex play and i'm stoked. Glad you're still uploading, this channel is insanely HQ for how underrated it is. Keep on trucking and remember: Ban Charizard

[@ZachHonest]

Yo thank you. And yes let's ban that Damn Zard!

[@Donch32]

Would love to see a video on ROB in P+

[@lovesosaJDPON]

hey man, just want to tell you, really good video. Informative but easily digestible, and very well edited. Nice work

[@Drance.Ngap.]

Bro Mk get nerfed on everything he had and still S tier he really be the meta

[@C-531]

my 2 favorite characters Project m 3.0 diddy kong vs brawl meta knight who better?

[@Nikolas0269]

This chuld be official move sets in future smash titles

[@Monhamd1000]

How to change the Meta "metaphorically".

[@GojiBoiEarth1964]

Imagine Brawl MK in Melee

[@Sazispeed]

the more i see meta knight in smash i wonder why does he fight with his cape because he doesn't really fight with it on in kirby games

[@SuperDominicS]

He went from meta knight to balanced knight

[@Starpotion]

It's like they looked at every single component of his kit to make sure it was busted

[@Nikolas0269]

I hope when they reboot smash bros in the next console. They chuld at least make him look like this instead of being highly nerfed

[@exaltedfalcheon1793]

Imma gonna parody this!

[@ninja1167.]

Meta Knight could still do a slash with down special in brawl too, that isn't new to pm

[@ZachHonest]

Yes, true. The main difference is Pm's version is activated with the C Stick and is much stronger/beefier.

[@tonyh_kim]

@ZachHonest c-stick works but technically it is the A-button (attack button) that triggers the shortened down b attack

[@geezerton1404]

Wait I never say the character tier list Sonic was A+ in P+ 😮😊

[@ANGRY_ALA]

Imagine meta knight isn't your worst match up, this comment was made by the bowser gang. It is somewhat funny how the two new kirby characters in brawl have the best spottdodge.

[@Flare8295]

Meta Knight is not a full on fasterfaller like Fox,Falco,Wolf & Captain Falcon but rather a semi fasterfaller like Diddy Kong & Lucas

[@DynoSkrimisher]

I find it funny how everyone was complaining about him being broken. It's literally in his name; Meta.

[@FirstLastname604]

It’s funny how the only “answer” to the most broken character in smash history is brawl icies, which is debatably the second most broken character in smash history

[@guyfauks2576]

hilarious cause icies were only dominant at the end of the meta cause all of their worst stages were banned

[@luopingnan15]

And he can glide by just holding jump after the first one

[@SmolBeanxox]

I finally understand

[@keybladeapologist.1131]

where can I watch competitive project plus? I've been looking.

[@robertonavacalleja4906]

Who would win, brawl meta knight or smash 4 bayonetta?

[@Offline133]

Another awesome video

[@dragonstar912]

0:34 looks like someone forgot about Melee Fox in the height of 20XX...

[@ZachHonest]

to be fair, Melee Fox's SS Tier Placing didn't last nearly as long as Meta Knight's. but fair point tho, he at least was there once, I kinda forgot LOL.

[@sergiotorresaragon7673]

What is Meta Knight's unrivaled attack speed?

[@djcreeperboy5062]

4:52. how about sheik’s b up

[@BagelEnjoyer]

I don't understand what they were thinking when they made brawl meta knight

[@ssbmwaddles]

I almost threw up when you said is has 30% tripping chance on dtilt (which is frame fuckin 3 active) omg what we’re they possibly thinking

[@ZachHonest]

brawl baby!

[@psakku]

whats the song that starts at 3:34

[@ImNess_Earthbound]

Calimari desert Mario Kart 64

[@psakku]

@@ImNess_Earthboundyoure awesome thanks

[@EszGotYa]

So what I'm hearing is, Meta Knight is to Brawl as what Mega Rayquaza is to Gen 6/7 Competitive Pokemon.

[@MetalSam25]

His range on his basic attacks made me stop playing Meta Knight, I play Lucas and Joker now in Ultimate, they have more range which is ironic due to one using his limbs and the other one having a knife

[@mirroredimage577]

Can U do Lucario next bro

[@allemagneproducer]

ss tier in fact sounds brutal :)

[@kek13223]

It's not a pun saying Metaknight defined the meta in brawl because that's literally where the term came from.

[@MrFrostyKnight]

The term comes from the Greek prefix "meta-" meaning "above" or "beyond". Its use in relations to games was first used in a scientific paper in 1956

[@LegacyMXoffical]

Bayonetta or vbrawl meta knight

[@joe564338]

A juicy vid

[@Sonick92]

I don't think MK has won a major since P+ began.

[@LMANPAD]

Brawl Meta Knight was a Smash Ultimate character in Braw

[@deathfromthedepths]

I am the 1k like of this video. That is all.

[@MUGEN64]

first

[@djcreeperboy5062]

Project plus meta knight is a rip off of marth

[@schmeeberson]

Is this an ai voice or something