Why No One Wins the Fast Fashion Debate

[@BroeyDeschanel]

Hi everyone, thank you for your comments! They're all very insightful! I'm learning a lot about the contradictory nature of "voting with your dollar" and I also totally agree that the movement against fast fashion needs to be organized (random disorganized boycotting is not very effective). Thank you all for being so knowledgeable - and I'm happy that my comment sections are a place people can congregate about these ideas! These videos are very labour-intensive and since I'm doing 90% of the work (this is a very part time gig for my researchers and script editors - all of whom have their own full time jobs) - there is always going to be room for human error. I am not an expert by any means, and I'm still learning everyday! I'm really asking that you please watch the entire video before you make a judgement! I have no problem with you telling me why I'm wrong, but at least hear my entire argument first. There are many comments from people who just watched the intro and judged the entire video based on that, which I find quite disappointing because I do try to engage with both sides as best I can. I am also aware that there is no cut and dry solution to this problem - I am mostly just trying to poke holes in the "classism" argument. Also guys - the bags and packages in the background are EMPTY and recycled from my parents' recent move, and from different bags my roommate and I have saved over the years. C'mon lol. Anyways, hope you enjoyed the video! Have a happy holidays

[@NB-lx6gz]

You know I find it ridiculous how you insist that Asia is so diverse and cannot be taken as one big place....well then I ask you kindly to STOP JUST STOP with the Europe this Europe that because not every damn country in Europe went on to colonize around the world. I am an Eastern-European and I am getting fcking sick of the ever so enlightened woke Americans throwing around the word Europe when colonization comes up. There is a Western and an Eastern part of Europe. Even in Western part not all Western European countries are colonizers. Eastern Europeans are not colonizers...do take note of that.

[@mhawang8204]

@@NB-lx6gz In this particular video, at 6:20 she categorized (parts of) Eastern Europe as the Global South - the part of the world that is exploited by the Global North, which includes most of Western Europe.

[@abelabel3664]

@@NB-lx6gz I agree. I just suggest you reconsider analyzing these things through "countries". Many of the countries we have nowadays do not even exist since imperialism and colonialism started. The very concept of a nation state is Eurocentric (and highly arguable).

[@mc-funk]

Alexis Shotwell's work on purity culture (many good talks on KZbin, also her book Against Purity) are extremely, extremely helpful on the ethics of personal decisions in unjust systems. Really opens up some new ways to think around what we are trying to do with our actions -- rather than just trying to establish our own internal relationship to unjust systems that might not even be challenging them while chasing an impossible vision of purity.

[@Bookingwithbritney]

@@NB-lx6gz At 6:20 she explicitly says parts of Eastern Europe are a part of the Global South and not a part of Westernization.That preface provides nuance to the rest of her references to Europe. Do take note of that.

[@norak8080]

people with a lower income buying from h&m once in a while aren't being unethical. it's people that choose to spend very large sums of money on a thousand trendy pieces that will go to the bin one season later

[@evi6629]

Exactly. Poor people usually buy sustainably by necessity. If you can only affort to buy a few garments a year, you make them last. Lower income people are not the one holding the fast fashion industry up, it's the people who buy hundreds of pieces of clothing a year and throw them out after wearing them only a few times. And those people are the ones who would actually be financially able to buy more expensive ethical garments.

[@alliexcx5576]

Yeah. And its scary

[@toomessy]

Plus, it's extremely silly to sit here and act like most of these luxury brands aren't also unethical too. You have to be quite naive, blindsided and bias to believe they aren't.

[@Martin-wb8bc]

There's always second hand clothing which is usually even cheaper than fast fashion since it doesn't need shipping. So I don't see why being poor is an excuse to buy fast fashion no matter how small of an impact one purchase has.

[@lilmoonjane5461]

@@Martin-wb8bc But thrift stores rely to some extent that newly produced clothes are donated. At some point a garment ends its cycle. Even thrift stores get donated clothing by fast fashion stores

[@upsetstudios1819]

I'm currently in fashion school and I had a very striking conversation with a classmate during my first year. Personally I've always been aware of the horrors of the fashion industry and ever since I chose to go into it I've had the existential dread of "what if I have to join the fast fashion industry in order to work in fashion?". Choosing to be hopeful and aim for slow fashion to the best of my abilities. But in my first year, I met this woman, let's call her Pam. Pam was a grown woman with children who had fled Pakistan only about a year prior and came to Norway. She was now enrolled in a one year textile course and she seemed very excited. A few weeks in, we were talking about where we'll end up after fashion school. She was very excited to work with her hands and sew lots of garments, possibly with some pakistani influences. Hoping to give her some perspective, I decided to tell her the truth: Fashion graduates in Norway don't sew. We sit in offices at Bik Bok, Zara, H&M, designing clothes and sending said designs to factories in the global south. We're usually in the top few, deciding the workload for thousands of garment workers that make breadcrumbs compared to us. My teacher in a different university even designed clothes for Bik Bok for over a decade. In Oslo alone there's like 4 different fashion schools. If we decide to design indigo dresses, then thousands of liters of dye and chemicals will be dumped into the river systems in the global south. And I could see the same heartbreak in her as I have felt, only I can't imagine fleeing a country of war to seek a better life in the world's richest country, only to learn your true passion might lead to suffering to those who couldn't flee

[@basketball7515]

the gravity of this youtube comment is shocking to me. how horrible of a realization

[@basketball7515]

that must be. thanks for sharing

[@firstnamelastname4778]

ouch.

[@sharkofjoy]

♥️

[@zekec6088]

I believe in your friend's ability to handcraft her own garments and make a living. Let it be so.

[@fabidirectioner1313]

The worst thing it’s…fast fashion isn’t as cheap in third world countries than it is in first world. Buying Zara in Mexico it’s somehow expensive. So the whole “democratizing fashion” mantra it’s so funny to me

[@itslina6500]

im from brazil and zara is rich ppl clothing over here. I myself dont own anything from them

[@Alex-wl9xw]

I'm from the Czech Republic and THIS. Zara and nice stuff from HandM are expensive rich ppl stuff. I buy a pair of nice pants from HandM and wear them till they look terrible (meaning often several years). And imo it's a kind of slow fashion. Thrift stores here carry... Very icky stuff. Small town in a post soviet country... But in HandM I buy something nice and wear it for a long time. So although I'm shopping fast fashion, I don't overconsume and behave in a slow fashion fashion.

[@havensohn3821]

HNM and Forever21 are like luxury items in the Philippines. Wtf.

[@mimizetulfifi]

In Romania Zara is a rich people store, the clothes are expensive and most of them are not even worth the price. In all of the fast fashion store, some of the garments are only suitable to dust the furniture with.

[@dariadari3370]

Same in Poland. Zara is for middle class at best. It's not affordable for average consumer. Hearing Zara is cheap in western world you realize how far behind them you are 😢

[@ruthfolorunso8715]

as someone born in the "global south", who moved to the "global north" as a kid and has lived here ever since, this video made me feel a lot of feelings, mostly guilt about participating in a system that contributed to the instability of my birth country and continues to do so nowadays, especially for something as trivial as fashion and beauty. and whilst i know it's not my fault and it's a complicated issue, i'm going to try harder to consume responsibly especially since i have the means to do so. thanks so much for this video, it was really enlightening and necessary!

[@Lisa-dv1xn]

I felt this comment

[@notthis9586]

Summed up my feelings as well!

[@macarenacopparoni4130]

This the main rason the people totally against fast fashion ist clasist (and ignorant). I am form a third worl country too, and that they said is "exploitment", its the job that make the country and economy groth. Even the now rich countrys has a moment were the workers were "exploited", because you can't go from pooberty to having 8 hours job without a lot of efort from sone generetion. Sorry for my english. I feel your coment

[@mitatf]

Not at all, our countries are not mean to grow, else our resources and labor wouldn't be as cheap. Like, they have literally shed blood so they can exploit our countries. When we gained rights they just took the job to some more hungry place (see east asia), but our countries are not getting better, we should aim and fight for real independence and control on our own resources if we want to improve. Moving the fashion economy towards first world designers that can ask for what their work is worth is doesn't solve a shit, our underpaid outsourced labor neither, because consumption was never revolutionary in the first place. Learning, solidarity and union is the way out.

[@taliahturqoise9673]

It isn't your fault. Don't succumb to guilt-tripping by first worlders.

[@sarahbentameur689]

I'd like to add that working class people in the global south already have relatively widespread class consciousness. In my home country of Algeria for example, the people generally understand the exploitative relationship that exists between western capitalists and Algerian workers. As soon as this class consciousness evolves into any sort of movement, the west mobilizes military and economic resources in order to crush dissent and revolutionary sentiment. See how Thomas Sankara was assassinated in a plot orchestrated by the french government after he planned to nationalize the resources of Burkina Faso. In order for people of the global south to find a higher standard of living and prosperity for their people, global systems of imperialism and neocolonialism must collapse.

[@lyssia5138]

Yeah, I think saying we can't rebel because we are too voiceless is ignoring the fact that we do.... And then the U.S comes and we are violently put down

[@mitatf]

Moreorless. I do think class consciousness is way more developed in the third world, but also a lot of the conformity and nihilism from the first world is getting to us u,u

[@outherewildinb2874]

@@lyssia5138 Exactly. The concept of being *rendered* voiceless in the Global North makes sense, but lacking the ability to develop class consciousness? That's... Not true in the slightest. It more sense if it were talking solely about workers' and the means of production, considering how vast these industries are now it would require a global effort - but that's not the same thing.

[@rp1455]

people in the global south are acutely aware that they're being exploited, because it's plainly obvious. Everything is made there now ffs, they know that there's a huge amount of value being created by them that they're not really seeing. The global north has benefitted from centuries of development policy and public spending, made possible by imperialism, meaning that even if you're poor in a western country it's not the worst thing in the world. I will add though that if you are living in a slum, a very small business owner (say, a street vendor) or are in general a participant in the cash / informal economy, then you're not likely to have class consciousness in the sense that exploited garment factory workers do. Because in the latter case it's obvious that you're being underpaid and overworked, whereas in the former case you're more a victim of poor infrastructure and a lack of generational wealth. But people do have a sense that they've not received a good hand (e.g., low-caste people in India know that the system is fucked, in a general sense).

[@camillelemmens1745]

​@@outherewildinb2874 I think she more referred to the early Marxist's definition of class consciousness. The context of class struggles of 19th century early industrial Europe was so much less complex than the global context currently (but even back then), that their definition of the term is just not suitable anymore to be applied in our current day and age ... That does not mean that we cannot (and haven't) redefined the term to suit our analyses of today.

[@bruins94laurent85]

“The third world is not poor. Most countries are rich. The Philippines are rich. Brazil is rich. Mexico is rich. Chile is rich. Only the people are poor. These countries are not underdeveloped. They’re overexploited!” - Michael Parenti

[@fann458]

my country (Brazil) has a big economy but the people can't buy FOOD bc it's so expensive, and the great quality food ends up in markets outside the country btw (you can look for the news in portals like G1)

[@Jo-gn3nu]

I live in a small city in the Brazil rainforest area and i don't know what is or isn't fast fashion, everyone is trying to sell for the lower price and the things that cost 3x more may be just trying to get money tricking us

[@bluester7177]

@@Jo-gn3nu fast fashion here in Brazil tend to be expensive brands you find in malls, also things like C&A, Riachuelo, Renner, Marisa, none of them are very affordable, I also don't know if they exist outside of the southeast so maybe this brands aren't familiar to you.

[@realbharbiexoxo]

As a mexican this is on point, im middle worker class so yeah

[@mitatf]

USA's cheap stores are expensive and classy here in the third world indeed lol

[@catis4]

I partially agree that you shouldn't shame people that buy fast-fashion, if they don't have other options, either because of sizes, location, money, etc. I used to buy fast-fashion because I didn't really had the money and thrift stores were almost non-existent in my country years ago. But even then I wasn't buying 100 pieces every month and many of those pieces I wore a lot of times and still wear some of those pieces today. People give the excuse of "poor people deserve trendy clothes" or "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism", but, well, poor people actually only buy a piece of clothing once a while and wear that piece many many times. It is not the same thing as some middle class/rich person on tik tok buying 1000 pieces for a 60 seconds haul and that they will wear once, if even that. And if someone is buying from a fast fashion online store, they could also easily buy from an online thrift store.

[@itsmonicalynn]

I initially felt a small amount of shame for owning anything from Forever21 or H&M when the term fast fashion came on my radar-but for roughly half of those items, I feel justified knowing they are pieces I wear frequently to work and have owned for several years-and for some pieces, almost a decade, now. When people say, stop being classist, they’re not posting essential buys that you can use for your wardrobe/job for years to come.

[@Rhaifha]

Agreed. When you're actually poor you don't go into a clothing store and buy whatever just because it's cute. You buy a sweater because you need a sweater. And you take care of it to make it last if at all possible. Though I've personally never been able to find clothes in thrifting. Thrift stores here don't carry my size in anything other than granny clothes and online thrift stores here have terrible return policies. I've resorted to trying to learn how to sew. Especially because thrifted fabric is surprisingly easy to come by in my area. People who can be so flippant and buy "disposable" clothes, aren't poor imho. (Or they have financial impulsivity issues, which is a whole other problem)

[@sheltertwo7957]

As a poor person, I can confirm the whole buying one piece & running it into the ground thing. If that one thing ain’t gonna last me, I’m gonna have problems because tax return season only comes once a year & that’s when I do my shopping.

[@tanvikejriwal1]

I agree! There is a difference between buying one black turtleneck that you use to death from a fast fashion brand and buying a house of sunny dupe that's gonna become too 'mainstream' and not trendy in 2 months (never to be worn again).

[@floraidh4097]

It seems to me that people use the excuse entirely so they don't have to reckon with the part they play in the issue. Same as the people who showed no grand concern for those with disabilities until they tried to ban straws or people who say 'what about our homeless veterans?' when someone wants to talk about helping homeless addicts. It's deflecting from the real issues so they can continue to not care about the issue or change their habits.

[@angelinanichols4282]

As a plus size and relatively poor person in a rural area who exclusively buys thrifted and slow fashion, it's pretty frustrating to see people tokenize people like me to justify their shitty overconsumption. Trust me, you have options if you actually bothered to prioritize something other than having the same clothes as your favorite influencer.

[@Rhaifha]

Truth! While I personally have never been able to thrift clothing, thrifting fabric has been my saving grace. I turned to learning how to sew. It's not as affordable as fast fashion, but it's fun to learn and I get cute clothes out of it. I do still have some fast fashion items (yes, sometimes it's unavoidable for me), but I take effort to wear them for a long time and to maintain them so they last as long as possible. I have a fast fashion sweater I've worn to death every winter since 2017. I still wear it. Also, while buying fast fashion doesn't exempt you from the ethical impact that has, environmentally being poor is practically a virtue, even in the global north. Because poor people fly less, use the AC less, use their dryers less, wear clothes until they're unusable, etc etc. A frugal lifestyle is quite compatible with an environmentally friendly lifestyle in the "making do" sense. So to go "awww, these poor people can't do the right thing because poor" is awfully reductionist.

[@ayanna6327]

@@elsiehupp Thank you for sharing ThredUp! I'm plus-size, and I'll occasionally buy fast-fashion (I never do it for trends, only for stuff I need that I know I will wear often for a long time.) I've ALWAYS struggled with thrifting because the plus-sized stuff is either non-existent or hella ugly. I just looked up ThredUp, and it's just what I needed. Will definitely be giving them a go, because I really don't like buying fast-fashion even if I don't do it with the intent of overconsuming.

[@theMoporter]

It's easy to say that when you do have access. I haven't bought more one or two items in the past few years because I can't physically access second-hand shops - they're too small to use a wheelchair in and they're sensory overload hell where I live. I used to go every day when I was abled. eBay is a gamblr and I'm priced out of services like Thread Up because they jack up the prices so much. When you're in this position, you make the fast fashion crappy quality clothes last until they're threadbare with in spite of repairs. Lucky I have the dexterity, mental capacity, and sewing equipment to make basic repairs to clothes. It's expensive to have your options closed off by an ableist society.

[@SGustafsson]

I second this

[@RachelMay1989]

Omg thank you for saying this! I'm a low income, plus size girl and i've consciously reduced my consumption, only buying secondhand clothes when I absolutely NEED to. It can be done. And it's extra galling when the people trotting this out as an excuse aren't even plus sized in the first place.

[@monkiram]

One other element to this that I feel like people fail to discuss: Shein is often the target of these fast-fashion debates but we have to remember that most of the popular retail stores at our local malls are just as bad. They are also fast fashion and produce their clothing by exploiting the impoverished in countries with poor regulations to ensure workers' rights. You brought up Zara and H&M, and most others are the same. The only thing that makes Shein worse is that it's even cheaper than companies based in western countries and so that encourages people to consume even more and more quickly. However, at the end of the day, the best way to be sustainable is to buy less. Whether it's from Shein or Zara, it has the same negative impact.

[@winniejalet9378]

so true!!! somehow people can find comfort in buying from places like brandy melville, forever 21, and aeropostale in their malls because it’s “not as bad” as shein. as if it isn’t the same type of production and abuse of workers.

[@karoliinalehtinen6701]

The cognitive dissonance I get from at the same time reading about historical dress and modern fashion industry. It's maddening how we went from honing for centuries the longevity and quality of clothing and the art of dressmaking to poorly constructed clothing made out of materials that fall apart in a month or so, that neither fit anyone or properly even protect from hot or cold in about a century. We went from dressmakers being respected professionals to under-payed and exploited workers, whose conditions more closely resemble slavery. It's such an obvious and glaring counter argument for the capitalism's promise of market forces naturally driving up quality and innovation. The exact opposite has happened. We have lost a lot of dressmaking techniques and skills to history directly because of capitalism. It didn't fulfill any need, before industrialization people, even poor people had high quality clothing that lasted long and were easy to fix. Poor people didn't have a lot of clothing, but they didn't need a lot of clothing because their few clothes were such high quality, much more durable, fitting and protecting than the clothes of the average rich person's today. The need capitalism answered with the clothing industry was the need of the manufacturer and the business owner to make more money.

[@NShll-sd9yw]

what a wonderful comment

[@warmlacroix_9820]

Oh my god exactly. Even when studying history and looking for “quality over quantity” clothes, I never put two and two together and realized it. Great comment

[@delphinedelphinedelphine]

I love the fact that dresses were often not sewn shut, that you had to pin them closed everyday. Sure, at first, that probably looks less efficient but the fact that a woman could wear the dress through many cycles of her life: young life, married/pregnant life, weight going up and down-- so much better than now! And fashions usually flowed from one to another meaning you could alter a garment from one season to the next year's trend so that you could keep up with what was fashionable and expected.

[@pearldiver6949]

This is an important distinction, but I’d like to flesh out historical fashion a bit more to be realistic. It was still very unethical for centuries before fast fashion. As mentioned in the vid, cotton was a very common textile, and was constructed mainly from enslaved labor, which in the American South also had devastating effects on the environment, along with other cash crops (like indigo). Furthermore, the British completely f*d up the traditional Indian textile industry to benefit their own (which was also abusive to workers). Boning used in stays & corsets could also be considered unethical if it was made of baleen (though I believe it was a biproduct?) or steel (worker conditions in steel mills were terrible during the 19th cent.) There are probably some more points to be made about historical dress ethics, but you get the point. It’s great that consumption was slower, and more thoughtful in conserving materials, but it’s important to acknowledge the systemic issues of the past, as they are ancestors to the ones of today. Following their guidance is what got us here in the first place.

[@kagitsune]

@@pearldiver6949 I will add to this that, actually, garment and textile workers have *always* been underpaid in Western Europe and America. Nicole Rudolph covered one example of the exploitation of shirt-makers in her video on researching/making her Gonzo shirt.

[@mai-ya-hee]

It’s so weird to find out that a lot of americans don’t use their clothes in stages- when they’re new and look good, they’re ‘outside clothes’, when they’re a bit faded and maybe have small holes in them, they’re ‘home clothes’ and when they worsen further, they become ‘house cleaning clothes’ Edit: can people in the replies understand this is not about them.? Didn’t even say ‘most’ I said ‘a lot of’. Obviously we are much more closely connected via class but the average person in the global south is a lot poorer than the average person in usamerica.

[@bluester7177]

House cleaning or sleeping clothes.

[@martabarrales3112]

yeah, I never even buy pajamas, just use old t-shirts and such. a piece of clothing has to be absolutely destroyed for me to throw it out. my mom used to save the little bits you get when doing hems to patch up my brother's school sweatpants when we were little.

[@rrenatabp]

and when they are too bad to be house cleaning clothes, they become fabric used to clean furniture and floors (pano de chão, as we say in brazil).

[@meiysko]

@@rrenatabp sim kkkskksk

[@Udontkno7]

Most Americans I know do, but my community isn't very white and very very very poor.

[@imunderyourbed8082]

First it’s rich girls gentrifying thrift stores, taking away from the poor customers and then it’s the poor ppl who cannot afford to solely live off of thrifted clothes and *must* consume fast fashion… It’s almost as if ppl who aren’t poor don’t know a damn thing about poverty. As someone who grew up relatively poor (German poverty is Ofc nothing compared to global south or even American poverty) it is extremely frustrating to see well off or middle class ppl justify their behaviour with the needs and limitations that “we” supposedly live with. Fact is: poor people are globally the smallest contributor to climate change. They don’t consume a lot, because they don’t have a lot of money. Being low income isn’t defined by spending hundreds in shein. It’s thrifting, reusing and fixing things so you don’t have to spend money. Being eco friendly is not a privilege, the image of being eco friendly however is. Buying expensive products that claim to be eco friendly will never be as eco friendly as simply *not buying anything* . It’s so ironic that capitalism is so ingrained in our thinking, that we can not wrap our heads around the concept that consumption in it of itself is bad for the environment.

[@Heyheywereallfriendshere]

I don't know about in Germany, but in America, at least where I live, more interest in thrifted or "vintage" items has only led to more thrift and vintage stores opening, usually with higher prices, but the prices at places like Goodwill and Salvation Army have stayed basically the same. It's typically only curated vintage or thrift stores that have higher prices, which makes sense, and like, those "gentrifying rich girls" tend to shop there anyway. I definitely don't think more people buying thrifted clothes is ever a problem.

[@Ashlett337]

Such a great comment 👏🏻

[@PriusRaj]

Ugh, there's the stupid comment saying you don't deserve to shop at a thrift store unless you make little money. Rich people aren't taking away things from poor people, they're coming for the vintage Chanel that you can't afford anyway. I'm not rich, but the clothes I'm "stealing" are $25 cashmere sweaters and wool pants. If I wasn't buying them some other middle class person would be. If you're poor, you're going after the $5 sweaters so you can afford more clothes to stay warm. That's what I did until my financial situation changed. It will ALWAYS be a good thing to reuse items, no matter your income, and the idiotic idea that rich people need to only buy new things needs to die.

[@imunderyourbed8082]

@@PriusRaj all I have to say is that I agree and recommend you read my comment again, because I never implied such a thing.

[@Yonna9Queen]

@@PriusRaj my friend at one point tried to sell perfectly good quality clothes to a thrift store bc they were stuggling. he got told that the clothes werent trendy and wouldnt sell. Rich ppl buying thrift has activley had damage to poor people who relied on thrifting

[@MichiruEll]

I've always understood the phrase "There's no ethical consumption under capitalism" as an injunction not to consume. Buying an ethical coat is objectively worse than not buying a coat. So if you already have a coat, keep it and don't buy anything else.

[@CrowsofAcheron]

Exactly

[@JebeckyGranjola]

'No ethical consumption' means that capitalism is defined by the owner extracting the surplus value of the worker. In other words, it demands that workers get paid less than they are generate for the owner. It means Capitalism is structurally exploitative. It doesn't have anything to do with consumption, pollution, or poor working conditions. Those are just negative externalities which could be improved, and the saying would still apply.

[@gillablecam]

@@JebeckyGranjola it's also about how supply chains are so complicated and there is so much harm done at every step that every single end product is tainted

[@bruisedviolets]

yes, not as an excuse to buy whatever because the corporations are responsible

[@toomessy]

People literally just use that phrase as an excuse to go ham when buying fast fashion. Funny enough, I personally don't care if you buy fast fashion, especially if It's because that's the only thing accessible to you in that moment-- BUT please, stop with the fake wokeness lol. Everytime I hear that phrase, I just KNOW someone is about to do the most irresponsible thing in their life.

[@TaraMooknee]

now THAT'S a mic drop

[@theinternetisqueer]

tara or cow??

[@Shaderzgamer]

this video is so well done , I think it's so telling that these same people who are like "stop shaming poor people who buy fast fashion" are the people who will have huge massive hauls spending so much money on fast fashion..as if low income people do that? it really is such an abused argument showing such cognitive dissonance

[@kaylahannon5469]

No seriously the overconsumption is crazy I haven’t naught new clothes in like 2 years just a new top or jeans when needed

[@BinatiSheth]

I was taught this growing up - You are too poor to afford low quality products. What it encompassed was this attitude of owning good quality products, and learning to preserve and repair. For me, that's what sustainability is - quality and a caring attitude towards the things I worked so hard to own.

[@Rhaifha]

I mean, "make do and mend" was an attitude that originated from simply not having another option. And it really should be more in the forefront nowadays.

[@BinatiSheth]

@@Rhaifha You're right. It originated from not having another option. To add something to this discussion: In India, that concept also originated from handing things down (Recent example: my granny purchased this expensive pure Silk Saree that I own today because it was handed down to me in her will). A lot of sentimentality is associated to objects. Also religion: So in Hindu households, you will see clothes, vessels, books, pens, etc. worshipped during major prayer days. If it goes to God's alter, it has be pure (as in no mixtures) material and something you can use for a LONG time.

[@ellay2715]

This!! My dad always taught me to buy a better quality item that costs more once rather than buying multiple that will need to be replaced constantly. It requires some saving on my end to buy nice clothes but I want to have them for a long time. I’ve gotten v meticulous about doing my laundry properly lol

[@ellay2715]

I also wanna add bc I see that your fam is from India that my dad is Pakistani…my American mom totally has the opposite attitude as well but that might j be a coincidence

[@BinatiSheth]

@@ellay2715 Ohhhh! My mom and dad are Indians and my mom still is not into buying based on quality instead of quantity. My dad on the other hand is like yours so samesiesss.

[@ohlove0]

I live in a third world country the "global south" and the whole narrative about "poor people can't afford expensive clothes" it's so funny to me, at least from my experience. My mom comes from a low class family (we are a mid class now but if you are from a third world country that's basically low class for a first world country) and she always prefer to buy high quality clothes over low quality, because with low quality clothes it only lasts for 3/4 months meaning you have to spend money for clothes again while with high quality you can use it for years and still look good (sorry if my English is not that good) Edit: a clarification when I'm talking about "high quality" clothes I'm not talking about super expensive brands like some first world country has. I'm talking about the regular brands from my own country or nearby countries that are almost the same price that the low quality clothes

[@strixpanahu1420]

Thanks for sharing your perspective! It's great to hear that we're seeing a shift in how people are approaching this problem, even all around the world. P.S. Your English is great!

[@GabrielGarcia-qr5wm]

The Gap between Low and middle class are bigger in poor countries, of course you are going to buy expensive stuff.

[@luxmuse5973]

I always tell people this! And your English is great!

[@mayam9575]

This is a quote I like that is similar to what u are saying: "Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet." -Terry Prachett

[@nadezhdamartynova5614]

Such a bullshit. If you are really from poor family you can buy only extremely cheap clothes; yes, they become not usable faster, so you buy new one and cycle continues. But you just can not afford yourself to buy "good" clothes or save money for them. You just buy cheap clothes and wear them until you can and little bit longer.

[@Chikadulce10]

And this is why I just really don't care about "fashion" as a concept. In terms of what's in style or "hot" right now. I just love expressing myself through clothing and what I think looks nice on my body. I don't care what's trending or whether something I wear is out of style. And THAT is the main problem with this whole debate. Fast fashion exists not to cater to the poor people that say they "need it". It's so that they can jump on any trend almost immediately and at the rate trends change, this happens often. They're able to make new clothes regularly on the cheap and keep up with these fads faster than slow fashion brands do. If there wasn't such a huge emphasis on looking fashionable based on what's trending right now, then people wouldn't feel so terrible about owning outdated clothing. But it's this culture that promotes that toxicity. It allows this to thrive.

[@erraticonteuse]

Yeah, I was in a thrift shop about a month ago and overheard one fellow customer asking her friend if she thought a certain item was "in style". All I could think was "why are you HERE if that's your first consideration?"

[@frannyglass61]

yes a million times. exactly what ive been thinking!

[@starylize]

i agree, the main source of the problem is overconsumption and needing to be in fashion/trendy

[@sorchacrabhan5937]

ABSOLUTELY!! much to the chagrin of my parents, I don't particularly buy as many new clothes as they think I should. I mostly buy from charity/thrift shops, and never buy stuff because it's trendy. I buy because I like it. I think one of the only things I bought new last year was a larp dress and cloak (both of which I wear frequently, not because I larp but because it's comfortable, it's both warm and breathable and God damnit I feel amazing in it)

[@ageofgrifter]

My problem with sustainable brands is: 1) I don’t trust businesses to tell me the truth 2) many businesses seem to treat sustainability as an extra option for which they up their prices and try guilt-tripping me into buying and 3) somehow everyone now decided that polyester and polyethylene are all great if they are recycled. I am sorry, I don’t want more plastic around me.

[@eternalangel666]

Greenwashing is everywhere!!

[@miss_chelles1338]

😂

[@celinepope]

Thrifting :)

[@tobe4real]

There are plenty of sustainable brands

[@ageofgrifter]

@@tobe4real and no proof that they truly are. Green washing is everywhere

[@danhoang96]

I just want to point out something quickly: Aliexpress isn't a clothing company that produce the clothes on there. They are like the amazon & ebay of china. There are various sellers/shops on there that have their own products that may or may not be replica etc.

[@joeykaushik7289]

As a socialist I find it ridiculous that people who call themselves socialists fail to distinguish overconsumption from material needs.

[@RealGermanish]

they're probably baby socialists. probably in their teens, just learning about it but thinking that they know everything. I was like that once. I'm sure with some more time they'll flesh out their thoughts about these topics and realize that just because it's normalized doesn't mean it's not overconsumption.

[@jfm14]

I suspect most of these people are fairly young and at least somewhat financially comfortable, with very little understanding of how poor people actually live in the 21st century. They often seem to be more motivated by middle class resentment of the upper classes than by care for poor/working class people... yet they see themselves as poor (or want others to see them that way so they don't have to face their privilege) and thus feel entitled to speak over others' lived experiences.

[@Sweetlovewhit91]

I actually think that line gets blurry quite a bit when you consider the function that fashion plays in our society. People in power make important decisions (hiring, networking, renting, getting loan from bank) by looking at the way a person is dressed. I think its a much bigger problem than just overconsumption. Its what we call "manufactured obsolescence" that does disproportionately affect lower class people and their ability to function in society.

[@jjava.bean5]

yeah its really annoying. like yes, Blaire, i know you probably working class but those poor people sewing your clothes have it way worse than you. unless you are literally homeless and starving and someone offered you money to do an aliexpress shoutout on tiktok - who the fuck you trying to convince? you? or me?

[@TimberWulfIsHere]

Probably because they are socialists. Your experience just debunks the crux of socialism. You can't even get along with your own people. Kek.

[@tanvikejriwal1]

Interesting how these people prioritize the right of low-income first world-ers to look stylish over the rights of workers in the developing world to have clean drinking water, a living wage and reasonable working conditions. Who cares if women in Bangladesh don't have access to drinking water in these sweatshops, the real class issue is how the average American teen can't afford a real Gucci belt.

[@acelya414]

it's like people know the morals they 'should' have but either don't fully understand them bcos they don't apply critical thinking, or they aren't willing to address their cognitive dissonance and actually DO something to align their actions with their morals

[@dawnvega383]

Silly teenagers you don't NEED a Gucci anything!

[@taliahturqoise9673]

I disagree. The issue here is that avoiding to buy fast fashion is pretty much fruitless and useless in the long run. Its much better to ACTUALLY fight for workers' rights instead of shaming working class teens on TikTok, but first world rich girls want to shame a girl who purchases a cute shirt once every 3 years... also, wearing out of fashion clothes can have bad social repercussions. If someone wears worn out clothes for a job interview, they have less chances of getting hired due to prejudice.

[@acelya414]

@@taliahturqoise9673 except that’s not the issue at hand here, the issue here is the overconsumption. most people aren’t shaming working class people who have no options other than buying fast fashion every once in a while. the people who can afford to be making fast fashion haul videos as often as they do, absolutely can afford to spend a bit more money to buy more ethically made clothes. it’s disingenuous to write off anyone who criticises them as rich, since these girls probably have far more disposable income than we do. not to mention, the prices of some sustainable fashion brands are similar to fast fashion brands these girls shop from. for example, honest basics, tala and aym studio have similar prices to fast fashion like zara, nike, topshop, urban outfitters etc. also, there are plenty of fashion staples which would be considered timeless, and vintage pieces are very popular too so constantly keeping up with trends to try and fit in is not only incredibly unsustainable (for the environment but also financially) but also very unnecessary. to echo the original commenter, i don’t think a western girl’s desire to be trendy to avoid looking like a social outcast is more important than the rights of the people risking their very lives to make these clothes. with that being said, i do agree we need to place more focus on workers’ rights, however i don’t think we should absolve consumers of any level of responsibility when a lot of us know very well the conditions these people work in, so much so that there are girls on tiktok making JOKES about child labour for their shein clothes.

[@Laura-gd4ku]

@@acelya414 The issue is capitalism and its mode of production. Consumerism is just a feature of it buts its not its root.

[@ald7282]

i use shein for the cheap prices, yes. i come from a low income family and am currently in college, so i don't have a spare 50$ to drop if my work pants rip. i buy staples that i need to replace other things. i wear my clothes to death, until they are torn and stained beyond being presentable, and these people buying clothing in "hauls", for things they will not wear often, that will fall out of style quickly, have the audacity to invoke a class divide? ugh

[@dickiewongtk]

Why not uniqlo?

[@mcchilde2903]

@@dickiewongtk uniqlo isn't as cheap??

[@imbobby3566]

@@dickiewongtk and they exploit Uighurs (probably like shein)

[@nenebrahm8733]

Ugh same and the thing is in where I live, there's no such thing as thrift stores 😭 and all I'm left with is buying once every three years or more. (very VERY Few stuff like a pajama or two shirts. Can't afford more than that)

[@poiseblemiramoon6992]

@@mcchilde2903 this depends on place. In hong kong, uniqlo is very affordable and have comparable prices to online retail websites like TaoBao. Other countries might be the same as well. So recommending uniqlo is not a stupid suggestion for ppl in the comments section.

[@gabrielles1851]

Suddenly kinda really happy I sew a good chunk of my own clothing. That way I can make it last, I get something unique, and I also get to flex creative muscles. It also shows me how much work goes into a garment so I don't get flippant about tossing something the moment it loses a button or tears.

[@jacquesdaniels2435]

The key word is 'over-consumerism' because true enough, it's absolutely difficult to dress sustainably if you're not part of the standard size. Just shop what you need, is the takeaway I got from this.

[@chuisii]

As someone from the Global South, I sometimes think depictions of poverty in movies and series from the US & co look nothing like my conception of poverty. These poor families usually have a home (or at least seem capable of affording rent), can afford all sort of appliances and can keep on consuming and living relatively comfortably. In my country, we'd probably call this a lower middle class family. Of course, there are other factors we should take into account, such as the lack of public healthcare in the US, but I honestly have a hard time grappling with these depictions.

[@calyyygrazie8]

Those depictions aren't even real though?? Like, movies and other things like that are fake, that's the while point of them? And if you've ever even interacted with people from the US long enough to have these conversations, you'd know that we're all aware if the fact too. It's weird though, because whenever I see someone who isn't from the US voice their opinions on what goes in here they always preface it with "from what I've seen from the entertainment media..." which is so weird, because wouldn't it be weird if I, as an American started trying to critique your society and the people you live with, but I only "know" what I do from television?? And another thing, most 9f the people getting representation in US media actually *are* upper middle class. That's why they act the way they do, and why they're usually white.

[@justthecoolestdudeyo9446]

There is a truth to the fact that American poor people still benefit from living in the global north (they are the ones buying the fast fashion that clothes them, not the ones being exploited to create it, for example), and they don't inherently deserve more consideration than people in the global south who face often worse conditions. However, I would also caution that American media is infamously bad at portraying American poverty, especially in movies and TV. Oftentimes, characters will have vague "money troubles" or make comments about not having money but the set design, props, and costumes are far more expensive than a person with XYZ job or money struggles would have, like to a comical degree (there's also product placement, where new luxury items work their way into a show so a company can advertise them to viewers subliminally).

[@AlicedeTerre]

@@calyyygrazie8 I think it's true that media depictions of poverty in the US are really inaccurate, but that doesn't mean that, on average, a poor person in america doesn't have a higher standard of living than a poor person in the global south. Someone making an annual salary of $35,000, which would be really low in the US, would still be in the top 5% of global wealth. The scale within the US and outside is incredibly different.

[@chuisii]

@@calyyygrazie8 I am very aware of the fact that I've never been to the US and that most of the things I know about the country are filtered through popular media. I do consume actual news form other sources and know about many of the struggles people have to go through. As I said, sometimes you're worse off in comparison, as in the lack of public healthcare that is a given in many countries or as in the fact that in some states not having a functioning car equals not being able to work or to escape an abusive relationship. This is not a competition to see who's more poor, this was me literally just saying that sometimes it's hard for me to grapple with the portrayals of poor people from the US in media. I didn't make any sweeping generalizations about all poor people in the US in general.

[@Lily-ni5po]

I am French. But I have spent a lot of time in the US, and I can say that even on the news, portrayals of poverty in the US are rarely accurate. Poor Americans have it really bad, in a way that's honestly shocking. They never show you how much on tv. A lot of them don't have a roof over their heads, sometimes if they are not in the streets (some live in tents in the streets of some cities), they live in their cars or even motel rooms. I saw a lot of families living in motel rooms, sometimes with cockroaches because they had to do their cooking in these rooms that weren't built with a kitchen in mind. I don't want to go on because it feels like showing them a lack of respect to describe too much, but true poverty in the US is nothing like what they show you on tv. Poor French are okay, we have a social safety net, not Americans.

[@linkers2293]

I'm also very annoyed with the hot take "boycotting fast fashion is classist" and agree with your conclusion a lot, but I think you may have missed what it's a response to. A lot of "ethical" fashion blogs and KZbin hauls as well as its association with minimalism are pretty classist. Lower class people who buy fast fashion still have a much lower carbon footprint than the wealthy, and they're also not benefitting economically from holding shares in large corporations. As someone who is lower class and buys almost all of my clothes from thrift shops or fair trade brands, I do find it very annoying when people think there's no choice but buying fast fashion. But, the point is that it's hypocritical for a wealthy person to criticize a lower class person for buying fast fashion.

[@od-vn9ws]

Regarding that last sentence though; that's not how people are deploying this argument, like the start of the video showed. People are deploying that argument against any and all criticism of fast fashion to the point where they'll defend a rich influencer's sponsored haul, which is clearly not something you do if your overall point is "it's hypocritical for a wealthy person to criticize a lower class person"

[@linkers2293]

@@od-vn9ws I agree, those people were stretching an idea to a place that was unreasonable and probably a way to justify their own consumption. My point isn't to defend them so much as to defend the original idea and the context it came out of.

[@katherinemorelle7115]

I get the original argument. But that’s not how it’s used these days. When I (a poor, disabled and fat person) buy anything fast fashion (which I do occasionally for my child who is still growing, when we can’t find what they need elsewhere), I’m not buying a bunch for hauls. I buy what we need and no more. I don’t appreciate being used as a stick with which to beat everyone who points out that fast fashion is in fact, bad. And as a poor person, I do usually find a way around fast fashion. Not always, but usually. So it’s not “buying fast fashion” that is the problem, it’s overconsumption of fast fashion that is usually being critiqued- And it’s not poor people who are engaging in that behaviour to begin with. I’m pretty sure most of the people who define fast fashion are just trying to justify their own poor choices.

[@kharbetterthanyou8552]

Spot on. Well off people constantly talk about fast fashion because it just happens that buying more expensive clothing is better for the environment. But ignore their other choices that cause even more carbon footprint. This just them making themselves feel good over the only on thing they do that is better than the poor.

[@godofchaoskhorne5043]

How quaint... you rather wear the second hand clothes of the upper classes than fast fashion. "There are other options guys! Here have my left overs" This woman's arguments were complete nonsense and everyone that is slightly economically literate would understand how nonsensical the whole anti fast fashion push is and how it hurts the people who have it the hardests and doesn't change anything about the industry, root causes etc.

[@mimimurlough]

Yeah but... I think you should have taken this up a notch. The debate on fast fashion is still pretty shallow compared to a debate on our consumption as a whole. Why, for example, Are we talking about Shein and not Amazon finds? Why Zara and not the great fashion houses that it emulates? Why are we buying a dozen reusable water bottles instead of reusing an old soda bottle? Why are we questioning the Alibaba haulers and not the runway reviewers? If poverty is indeed about the ability to participate in the norms of a culture, it's the deciders of that culture that should be scrutinized. Why do we keep acting like a t-shirt or a perfume bottle is better because it has some logo on it? Why hell are some people expected to buy new clothes every month? Apart from possibly teenagers, the lower classes don't do that. It's the middle class and the rich who stand for most of this consumption.

[@redmaple1982]

But that was the point of her video fast fashion is being propped up by the middle and upper classes and the existence of poor people is used to shut down criticism of these industries...fast fashion is seen as particularly dangerous because it is so easily over consumed by people with money

[@phosphenevision]

Obviously Shein and Alibaba are worse because china is evil /s (but also 90% sure that's why articles on them do the rounds so much more, US media looooves to make china scary)

[@pearldiver6949]

@@phosphenevision yeah, I was surprised she didn’t bring up garment workers in the US. Also using terms like “working class” or “lower class” in regards to the global north vs. “exploited” in the global south didn’t really make any sense. An electrician is “working class”, but they’re likely not going to be poor, lower class, or exploited if they’re part of a good union; the terms aren’t synonymous. And just saying “poor” neglects the exploitation of certain workers within the global north. It’s ironic, given that a large part of her video targets this conflation of portrayals in the global south.

[@rebeccadyer6119]

Nice comment. Quick note on “why are we buying a dozen reusable water bottles instead of reusing an old soda bottle” - There is a lot of evidence (but I’m not an expert and there is also contrasting evidence) that these low-quality plastic bottles can damage our health when they start to wear down (after a few uses) because they contain BPA and PET. Meanwhile, few reusable bottles contain these. Soda bottles also aren’t built to last so you would have to replace them much more frequently than a reusable bottle. I think that buying 1 or 2 reusable bottles and using them for many years is a sustainable choice, particularly if they’re made from recycled materials (though this option can be too expensive for some).

[@CampingforCool41]

That was kinda the whole point of her comment that started this. She was criticizing the people promoting fast fashion, not poor people buying what they can afford.

[@Rhaifha]

I think the original argument might be more along the lines of "It's hypocritical to criticize poor people for occasionally buying stuff from fast fashion brands when the "higher" classes are way worse with their consumerism of practically everything". But yeah, that's not carte blanche to give up and do whatever.

[@AshTanya]

When the ratio swings the wrong way its quite painful. I've stopped debating fast fashion in comments for this reason, too

[@soakupthenoise]

i'm a poor person in the global north and frankly if you're doing TikTok haul videos you're not poor and you're not the person those classism arguments apply to

[@KateKatastrophe]

$200 could buy you one good coat that will last you 10 winters or 5 coats that only last one.

[@Mary1337]

@@KateKatastrophe I would say a fashionable cheap coat is built differently than some cheap pants... No matter the level of quality... Not the best comparison.

[@cookieanddream]

@@KateKatastrophe not always true I make my shein clothes last I'm a growing kid so if I give away or throw out clothes it's because its to small or completely worn out I would prefer spending 50 dollars on 2 jeans and 2 shirts from shein than to spend that on one shirt when either way both options will last for me no matter where you shop you shouldn't over consume and should learn to take care of your clothes

[@irondragonmaiden]

@@KateKatastrophe Longer. I thankfully didn't have a growth spurt after high school and my high school coat is still good and useable even 15 years later

[@niwa_s]

Congratulations, you don't understand the concept of poverty.

[@eugeniabukhman8533]

Yeah I feel like part of this is just... in bad faith from the people who say there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Because they're technically right, but there is a vast difference between buying clothes from stores like Walmart, say, because its what you can afford, versus buying from fast fashion brands because you want to emulate an influencer. I personally have bought clothes that aren't from the most sustainable brands, but that I have worn and will wear for years. I still wear shirts and pants from middle school that still fit me. There is an angle to buying nicer or more expensive clothing for the purpose of making it last, like a winter coat that may cost a lot upfront but that you can wear for several years or more, but that's still not the same as buying the exact same cost amount of random tank tops from Shein or whatever to follow a trend, you know? I feel like the people who defend insanely large fast fashion hauls really are more concerned with the "fashion" than with the "fast", if I'm making sense here.

[@shadesofsunset4258]

As someone who comes from a place where H&M and Zara are considered expensive , I try not to let even my favourite youtubers make me feel guilty for buying cheap clothes. Because guess what?? Except for the minimalists, they all talk of sustainable fashion and buys 50 pieces of clothing from this so called "sustainable" brand, and then do a closet cleanout and donate piles of clothes only worn once, and then call themselves sustainable. Like Ma'am, I don't think its sustainable at all if you're overconsuming. I have clothes that I've worn for 10 years and they're not high end or sustainable at all.

[@zaranichols5609]

THANKYOU!! I'm so sick of seeing people purchasing hundreds of $$$$ worth of shein, ali express and pretty little thing hauls with the justification of 'there's no ethical consumption under capitalism' ????? like okay does that make you feel a bit better about spending a huge amount of coin supporting businesses that profit off the backs of already impoverished people??????

[@1989annasmith]

This is why I actually don't buy sustainable or ethical clothing (hear me out). I find that that it takes a huge mental load to determine what is actually ethical and what is priced up items with green/ethical marketing. Instead (and what I think is actually more realistic for most folks) is I have two rules 1. Buy less 2. Buy less new stuff. Simple and I'm not tricked and overwhelmed

[@me9981]

I have 2 rules too : 1. Buy less 2. If buying, buy thrifted or locally handmade I think the best options are to buy less and buying thrifted because there is soooo much clothes in thrift stores it's sad 😱

[@Anabórshën]

I buy clothes once a year. Im a adult (20) at this point so I don't grow that much anymore. Growing up in a middle-class family in an asian country (id be considered poor in the west 💀) taught me sooo many things and a let me learn so much about overconsumption and shit like that. I was already consuming wayyy less than most people (clothes and stuff, cant say the same about food 💀💀💀) so its not hard for me to keep it that way or be conscious about the things I buy. Im not glad for the economic state I am/was in because nobody should live in a state of economic despair but I'm glad for the things I learnt. Im nor a huge fan or supporter of my country or the government but the cost of living is pretty low, I guess I got lucky.

[@chesca6469]

yeah I agree with that first point. some people have more important personal shit going on in their life that having to also think about how they are sourcing their clothes and if it is sustainable can actually be too much and quite overwhelming! I definitely have been in that position where I was in a highly stressed/busy period of my life and it was absolutely critical and essential that I focused entirely on this one thing that I had to deal with in my life. There was actually no place at all for thinking about large world problems like sustainability in fashion and if my fashion choices were sustainable or where I should go to find sustainable fashion. I didn't have any brain space for that! some people are in those positions I suppose.. I dunno maybe this isn't a huge proportion of people or anything haha but I think it is important to mention anyway that some people actually have way more important and CRITICAL shit going on in their microscopic lives. I have now got to a place where I am out of that intense period of time. These times are temporary. Now I do have time to think about sustainability....

[@julia-pw8fz]

hi ive been looking into stuff and i need a little help understnading this: if not buying from fast fashion may cause job loss for laborers in fast fashion, what will happen to them if we dont try to support ethical companies?

[@MEOWMIX3DS]

what if people just didnt buy anything and use hand-me-downs instead.

[@elinorcackett2314]

As someone who grew up poor, fast fashion prices (while nowhere near the prices they should be to pay workers fairly) were still too high. Charity and thrift shops were my only option back then. I care about sustainability and still try to make ethical purchasing decisions. Those girls making the hauls are being obtuse and I think they know it

[@digapygmy70]

Great video! This whole situation is so very complex, but it all basically boils down to corporations not wanting to pay all of their employees fair wages. I used to work at a wholesale fair trade clothing and accessory company where all of our products were handmade by women in India. One of the owners was an Indian woman herself, and it was very important to her and the other owner (her wife) that they paid these women fairly and provided safe working conditions. I don't remember what sort of prices these items ended up at, but definitely not outrageous prices, nothing out of the ordinary from what someone would typically expect to pay. However, the same owners only paid me and the one other warehouse employee $10 an hour, had us working in an unairconditioned warehouse (in South Carolina), and also pushed my coworker to quit because she had a chronic illness and kept having to leave work early (even though she told them about her condition during her interview and they said it was fine). The whole thing is fucked lol.

[@sammysoppy3361]

most people don’t buy a ton of fast fashion in one go. they will buy a few things here and there cause even fast fashion prices add up quickly for even an average income person. i think the culture of social media has created the “young people clout buying for content online” problem. the people who need to be shamed for this are ppl who buy a grand worth of stuff for youtube videos or because they can, and they companies who make more than they need to and treat their workers like shit. i think fast fashion serves a purpose, but i’m not gonna shit on the girl who goes and buys a few pieces a year over the influencers and the companies themselves.

[@KalynnCoy]

Thank you for putting this out! I have a degree in fashion and ultimately ended up leaving the industry because it was so unsustainable and contributed to my climate anxiety to such an extent- I'm now in academia studying the effects of influencer endorsements, so this video is right up my alley. I've gotten into a lot of internet fights with people who argue that fast fashion is "good, actually". There tends to be a lot of privilege in that perspective- even from economically marginalized communities in the "global north". We should also emphasize how quickly fast fashion has emerged, especially sites like Cider and SheIn. Because the growth of these sites has been so, well- fast- most of the data we have if from before the emergence of these retailers. Instead a lot of the data on fast fashion figures only look at Zara and H&M versus the hyper fast fashion retailers. And although Zara and H&M are bad, they are less horrible than the online only fast fashion platforms-consequently, our understanding of the environmental and social impact of fast fashion is likely underestimated, given that these platforms are incredibly opaque about their sourcing, production, and shipping tactics. We literally do not know just how bad these firms are to the planet.

[@daniellecardoso7981]

I think it boils down to the question of "does the majority of people (especially in developing countries) choose what they consume or do they consume what they can afford?". If thrifting solved the fashion industry's enviriomental impact, poor countries wouldn't face issues in that regard since the vast majority of the population (Brazil's for instance) dress in second hand clothes passed down from family members and donations... The problem with the capitalistic solutions of sustainability is that they provide a false sensation of "contribuition to the cause" that is only available to a veeery small percentage of the population that has the time, money and resourcers to care. Not to mention the solutions brought up by private companies are usually pretty misguided, under researched, non cohenrent in a global sphere, profit oriented and in the time we have before the complete climate colapse, numbers wise irrelevant. Worse so, it takes away from getting those individuals with high market power and affluence to perform in other more effective forms of social activism because they think they've "done their part" by using the reusable grocery store bag, when in all truthfulness, it means jack shit. I reccomend the works of daddy Mark Fisher "Capitalism Realism" and the short doc "Forget Shorter Showers" forgot the director's name but it's awesome. Let's burn down the master's house bitchez.

[@abelabel3664]

Why shouldn't we choose for the least harmful alternatives while we do not achieve a systemic solution? Shouldn't we do our best within our given context, regardless of what that is? I agree with the "false sensation" and "done their part", but if you are aware of that, you won't have such sensation and you can go on to choose the best possible options - and I argue one should: everyone in a position to choose should strive to choose the least harmful option. That does not prevent anyone from engaging in whatever activism or activity they see fit. (Why shouldn't I take shorter showers if that has - yes, a very tiny - effect? Why having longer showers will allow me to do more on political and activist sphere?)

[@taliahturqoise9673]

@@abelabel3664 Because big corporations use the "anti fast fashion" movement as a distraction in order to prevent systemic changes.

[@abelabel3664]

@@taliahturqoise9673 And you are aware of that, aren't you? So while being aware, answer my question. You can continue doing whatever it is that you are doing for systemic changes while choosing the least harmful alternatives in our current system.

[@lauraigla6319]

There's a fine line between constructive discourse and "these third world people are poorer than you, and it's your fault their conditions are bad." Props, for trying to walk it. It should also be considered that these people working in such terrible conditions are simply trying to earn money to live. The demand for product is what gives them a job, and therefore, in my opinion, it really is on the corporation to ensure good working conditions. We as consumers are straight up LIED to all the time about what conditions workers are subjected to, which makes it kind of unreasonable for average(or poor) people to keep up with what is or isn't sustainable. Buying less is the only thing I can see as sustainable, but even that's difficult when my affordable clothes get shredded quickly... Because I also work in a manufacturing setting.

[@lauraigla6319]

@@notyaunzzz yes, exactly. I'm not kidding when I say I *shred* my stuff

[@RealGermanish]

Very true, the problem is just that companies have shown us that they don't want to improve workers conditions unless they have a monetary incentive. So how can we pressure these companies to do better? By not buying their products? In an ideal world everyone would boycott them and they would then improve workers conditions and we would start buying from them again. In reality, it probably wouldn't work like that. Then there's the question of what would happen if we actually succeeded in buying less fashion? What would happen if the demand for clothes would be drastically reduced, no matter if high or low quality? Many factories would close and all these people would be out of a job. So while I agree that we should reduce our consumption for environmental and other ethical reasons, I think no good change will come for the workers unless politicians get involved. What these workers need is laws that protect them and job opportunities that are better than this. What can we as individuals in an entirely different part of the world realistically do to get them that?

[@irinaetcharren3138]

Thank you so much for ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE EXPLOITED BY FAST FASHION. I‘m so tired of first world people ignoring the actual consequences of their hyper consumerist lifestyle.

[@fridasaavedra8460]

As a peruvian this discussion is interesting. Here we have Gamarra, which is one of the largest clothing and textile market (mostly informal) in the continent. Most of the things that they sell are cheap and have a good quality, so most working class people go there. The problem with this market is that there no regulation and since they are informal we don't know how much they pay the workers. I think this discussion is mostly american/european, because in Latinoamerica and other parts of the world our interactions with consumerism and explotation are different. Ex: Zara and H&M are expensive and we view them as rich people's clothing.

[@domenicalecca3085]

The funny thing is most garments in gamarra are not locally produced anymore, in orden to compete with drop shippers like shein and allyexpress, most "galerias" have opted for importing clothes from the same providers in china. After Alan Garcia's TLC with china this has become the standard, killing the local industrial production, many factories (and i mean the well regulated ones) have closed or had to start producing for only high end stores. The only local production in gamarra is mostly informal and exploitative.

[@gabrielserra]

yeah, it's still funny to me when people say zara on the internet and they don't mean "rich people clothing".

[@TenjoTengeCT]

Yeah, there’s no way a poor person can afford shopping at h&m here, not even at Topitop which i remember being a little more affordable than Ripley or Saga at times. Also I agree that this discussion would have to be approached differently in regards to our country and its working class but I think the aspects of the responsibility of distancing oneself from overconsumption and being conscious of the terrible labor conditions poor people go through could still apply to the middle and upper class here, cause they do have access to this huge fast fashion brands.

[@LaQueenaSterns]

When I was younger my mom told me and siblings that shirts can be cleaned and cut up to make rags for deep cleaning days. I remember looking at her in pure shock when she took an old t shirt that she had bought years back and cut it up. She then proceeded to have all of us cut up old shirts as well that didn’t serve any other purpose other than cleaning at that point. It still makes me smile every single time I think about that.

[@guitarlover1204]

One thing I am struggling to make sense of -even as a person from the global south who has direct contact with places affected by fast fashion- is this dismissal of "the right to dress fashionable". As a socialist man it's pretty easy for me to say "don't dress fashionable if you can't afford sustainable fashion"... But I still need to dress up for a job interview; and while I might get some slack if I go there with a used t-shirt and jeans, a woman is probably not going to get the same reaction. As far as I understand, from reading and asking female friends, not looking "good" and "put together" is a big deal for them, and while most of what this video is about is not formal clothing, that show of status and respectability through clothes doesn't stop at work. It is everywhere. I'm not here to say "it IS actually classist to say these things" of course not, but it is more complicated. I don't feel comfortable saying "don't buy it" because we can't stop either, and because the intersection of patriarchy would mean those women would be facing legit setbacks. The most influential organizations in the history of humanity create these systems, expecting individuals to solve it by voting with their dollars is... Kinda strange. Not to mention that actual, legit classism can affect someone just for "seeming poor", or do I need to remind anyone of "no shirt, no shoes, no service"? Why not advocate for actual action against these companies? Why not sabotage them, even? Why not advocate for a stop to the south's exploitation? This debate about fast fashion feels like it's about privileged people trying to figure out who is better than the others, instead of actually understanding and solving the issue

[@taliahturqoise9673]

The best comment in this video. Completely agreed.

[@guitarlover1204]

@Adira Najavits In the end, I feel like this "just stop using makeup/buying fast fashion" is a rejection of someone else's reality. It paints everyone (but mostly women) who participate in these systems as mindless consumers, who have surrendered their thoughts to the machine and need to be scolded back to reason, rather than perfectly sensible human beings operating under a different set of values and belief It doesn't mean those values and beliefs are any good, or that they hold any water, but i think it's valuable to try and understand them in those beliefs. This is true of all "problematic" people. Dehumanizing the opposition in order to differentiate "good people" and "bad people" inevitably devolves into tribal arguments, and prevents us from recognizing what can we do to actually solve the issue.

[@chesca6469]

@@taliahturqoise9673 yeah exactly like shit is complex, you need to really get to the root of stuff. life in general is really not straightforward there are so many infinite factors with different weights of 'importance' or 'effect', it is difficult to really ever be able to say a statement with absolute sureness.

[@siginotmylastname3969]

As a system of non binary disabled and neurodivergent people we agree. And wearing ill fitting clothes due to neglectful fatphobic abusive parents was a part of becoming targets for abuse. Shopping is hard because we wouldn't benefit from plus size but our abdomen is kinda fucked by endo so it's the one area clothes constantly slip down or dig in. We also deal with trying to pass as male to reduce dysphoria, use a cane so in general feeling good in clothes is extremely important.

[@rafaelatenorio5051]

your comment describes perfectly this debate, you’re completely right

[@NeverStoppedSinging]

Girl, you might be America poor, but if you are Slavic country poor - even fast fashion is expensive. Pair of fast fashion jeans is a fifth of monthly salary for some people. Sustainable jeans are literally worth a full month salary in some Slavic countries. I don't think some people from fully developed countries can comprehend how poor majority of people in some developing countries can be.

[@abelabel3664]

That also has to do with how the same brand places itself differently in different markets. While in rich countries a brand like Zara does its best to be the cheapest, it will put their prices up a notch to compete in a different section of the market in poorer places. This dynamic causes somethings to be more expensive in poorer places, both in a absolute sense as well as in a relative sense, as you explained.

[@kennyb1588]

@@abelabel3664 was just coming here to say this. The prices for brands isn’t universal across and board Some of these companies ceos have literally said they would rather burn their clothes than see poor people wearing them it’s really gross

[@NeverStoppedSinging]

@@kennyb1588 That is so gross :\

[@Mary1337]

@@kennyb1588 who?

[@tokuko9027]

@@Mary1337 Brandy Melville is one that comes to mind. A store was shut down because according to the CEO the dark skinned people who shopped there didn't fit the brand image.

[@pupu2410]

I'm sick and tired of people using "I can't afford ethical fashion!" as an excuse and then posting 300$ Shein hauls every two months.There is absolutely no reason you need 20 new pieces every season, heck even every year.I'm tired of fads on TikTok that last a month.Bring back seasonal catalogs.

[@alizetvargas]

Thank you for stating this clear enough, fake class consciousness is not an excuse for over consumption. I have given up on debates on most of the social networks because empathy and nuance is almost non existent, but I always come back to youtube because it's a place where ideas come to grow in depth, and I feel you are part of that

[@alilila7702]

As a person who was using instagram a lot and also was into fashion before, I find that social media fuels your desire for overconsumption like nothing else. It's almost inevitable that you'll see on your recommendation pages posts in the format of "Imagine how good my life will be if I buy X" or "10 things that make your outfit look outdated". This social pressure to conform to fashion is not new of course, but for the past 30 years or so it became conformity on steroids. By observing myself, I found that the more time I spend roaming social media, the higher my desire to overconsume. And vice versa when I took a break from apps such as ig and tiktok, I found that I actually don't find new trendy pieces appealing or versatile.

[@dangerousateveryspeed]

i worked for H&M as just a retail sales assistant in australia, and i have never been treated worse by an employer. ever. they didn’t even permit me to swap my shift to go to my grandfather’s funeral. my pay was docked because i had an injury and couldn’t “work as fast”. managers would stand over you with a stop watch and time how quickly you went about tasks. 10 hour shifts with only a 10 minute break was normal. they didn’t pay us overtime, weekend rates (which is a staple across australia) or public holiday rates. eventually i resigned, because i was so overworked and underpaid. these companies are evil, and have never, ever stood for the worker nor the consumer. they don’t deserve any of our dollars.

[@brunetteartist24]

Thanks a lot for actually talking about how fast fashion affects non american countries aka the countries from where they actually source the labour . As an indian, it's even more frustrating when the entire discussion about fast fashion starts and ends at america.

[@JustLaugh143]

I want to say that disability is often very ignored in this conversation. I thrift a lot now but physically trying to thrift is sometimes impossible for me and always very physically taxing. Online thrifting rarely allows returns and I can't afford to buy something that doesn't fit and hope I can resell it and at least break even. (I am aware that thredup allows returns but the site is hard to use and the prices are not often that affordable in comparison to other thrift places).

[@siginotmylastname3969]

Plus there are allergies you can have to clothes. Labelling of second hand clothes we've looked at is much worse than in shops. There are lots of factors being ignored.

[@karolinakuc4783]

​@@siginotmylastname3969What kind of allergies to thrifshop clothes? Germs can be destroyed with colidal silver, one can have alergy to certain fibres like synthetics elastane, acrylic or poliester those clothes attract germs due to its structure and the fact that they are not breathy (unlike natural fibers cotton, hemp, linien and wool). Wool, hemp and linien have anti-bacterial properties and suck sweat well. One can be alergic to wool well... you can be alergic to anything really. But synthetics are toxic.

[@arielhansen4344]

Another aspect of these fast fashion websites that doesn't get talked about are dangers to the consumers. Many of these products from places like Shein or Ali Express contain levels of heavy metals (lead, cadmium, etc.) and other dangerous chemicals at higher concentrations than is legally permitted in the countries the consumers live in.

[@ionia2376]

Yesss so many PFAS chemicals at such high concentrations!

[@emexdizzy]

Honestly, my only critical response to "the fast fashion industry is unethical" is "yeah, but votes with your wallet won't stop that, we need more that that, like anti-pollution and pro-worker legislation, unionized work places and greener shipping practices." Just that voting with your wallet isn't enough, sometimes you do need products you can only get new (like undies), don't guilt yourself or others where you can't buy sustainable, just celebrate what victories you can make in pushing back against overconsumption.

[@theloveandcookiesgal]

when they outsource to countries that dont abide by our laws it doesnt rlly matter tho

[@pearldiver6949]

@@theloveandcookiesgal they can ban imports using slavery or not meeting certain environmental requirements. But that would be bad for the economy/ s

[@celinepope]

As an environmental science and sustainability student, I promise you that both wallet votes and business make an impact. Yeah, we can't thrift underwear, but we can make those purchases from fair trade or B Corp certified companies. When we prioritize just morals in little actions we are "being the change" we wish to see. Proud of you for any victories you've made with reducing your consumption! Right on!

[@GenerationNextNextNext]

We also need affordable sustainable buying options for poor consumers, ones that poor people can access and can be shipped to people who can't access thrift or second hand stores and for those who want clean and sterilized clothing in their personal size. We also need to offer money-making options for those interested in going into the fashion industry but find they can't make a living and meet demand unless they go into the fast fashion market.

[@GenerationNextNextNext]

@@celinepope Is fair trade or B Corp certified companies affordable for poor people and do they offer clean and sterilized options?

[@angeles381]

In Chile, Topshop is an expensive brand, not everyone can buy garments from there, so yes, the global south is the poorest, we don't have north salaries, we never in this life can afford a luxury bag or such things that are not normal but pretty common on other countries. The sustainable way here is to buy local, thrift, or buy from fast fashion and just wear it until it fell apart. Great video, subscribed!

[@JamisonMyth]

Fast fashion kills the planet and exploits workers, and at the same time class is enforced through fashion. The contradiction is baked into our social, political, and economic reality. If you worry about which side of the argument you stand on or which side gets more likes in a comment section on 1 video, you're already missing the bigger picture.

[@EmissaryofYogSothoth]

Yeah, it's very important to emphasise the part that fashion and what you wear plays as a class signifier when talking about fast fashion.

[@starylize]

this should be a higher up comment.

[@aliviaerin5604]

it’s hypocritical for y’all to say arguments about fast fashion from a IPHONE/SAMSUNG/Any type of computer which literally exploits its workers too??.. and even most high end brands exploit its workers.. That’s why nobody wins this argument because it’s all hypocritical.

[@karolinakuc4783]

And they have heavy metals in clothes. A few times more than its is save to digest (yes by wearing clothes we digest those substances).

[@StellaBella488]

I feel like I understood your point better from the comment section than from your video😅. From what I can understand, this fast fashion debate is of the most concern in mid- to upper- middle class families that don’t have CONSISTENT designer money but have more than a few extra dollars for burn per year through individual or family support. For ppl roughly in the working class and below, just a couple fast fashion items is a splurge that is fully used. I wish you would have talked about each class individually. Or maybe this just wasn’t the group of ppl you were trying to appeal to 🤷🏽‍♀️. Still, this was educational.

[@joelman1989]

I just think it’s unproductive to go after a random person on tik tok or Instagram for wearing a shein dress for example because like, this WILL NOT solve anything. There’s this underlying philosophy that if enough people just shop correctly we can solve capitalism. Yaaaaaay. I don’t actually care at all where you shop because at the end of the day the problem is the corporation not the consumer. But I agree, promoting overconsumption is it’s own problem.

[@inekewessels9534]

..."The inalienable right for every social class to be fashionable is more important than the inalienable right to not be exploited and abused by corporations" - says it all. Thanks for the video.

[@RaggaDruida]

I was born in a third world country, in what would be "middle-class" for that country, but is not exactly middle class in the world context, what my father told me, and i keep doing now that i crossed the Atlantic, is what Terry Pratchett describes in his famous Vime's Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness. Buying bad quality disposable items is more expensive in the long run! I remember going with him in search of good quality leather boots that would last years as soon as I stopped growing fast and the search in 2nd hand stores for stuff made by the likes of Fjallraven and Patagonia that we knew would last for decades...

[@theMoporter]

You missed the point of the theory. It isn't that buying quality items is smart, it's that if you can't scrape together the pennies for the good boots, you're stuck in a cycle of buying terrible boots over and over. It's more expensive to be poor than to be middle class.

[@saraheerie]

As someone who is low income, and hasn’t purchased more than maybe $50-$100 of new clothing in the last 5+ years, I will just say I’m way too poor and way too stressed just trying to survive with a chronic illness and chronic pain that I’m really over poor people being blamed for fast fashion popularity and over consumption. We’re not “over consuming” we’re broke. It’s the upper middle class who is spending $250+ every 3 months purchasing new fast fashion and then throwing it away within a year.

[@Jazzisa311]

It's not a competition though. We can all point fingers, or we can all look at our lives, and think: well, I'm doing X, and I could change that with Y, and it'll be an ethically better choice. But I can't change out T with U, because I can't afford that. You make the choices that are available to you. You're not responsible for changing the world on your own, but if you didn't care about bettering the world at all, why click on this video at all? Every single choice is a choice. You don't have to save the world by yourself.

[@jenniferlabruzzo3922]

100%, also most high end companies are just as unethical !! and there is way more money leaving the local economy through them. People are choosing to buy 10K bags that were not bade ethically rather than say save some lives with clean water or malaria treatment. I can imagine that there would be more more charity if people where less focused on materialism.

[@HIJ4DELALUN4]

you did such a great video. i'm working on my senior project for college about this subject and your video is absolutely helpful, thank you for all the hard work and delivering such a round view on this debate!!

[@stephaniesantos78]

i absolutely hate the way peeople see apps like depop and poshmark, bc they're actually a great solution for people who want to switch up their look but can't afford sustainable options and don't have the time to sift through thrift stores in their area if they're not in a city or town where their stores get good donations. like yes, those ppl who go around to thrift stores and sell $2 sweaters for $80 are assholes, but so many ppl on there are just trying to get rid of their clothes and get some side cash to replace those items with. it's a great solution if you've recently lost or gained weight and find that your clothes don't fit you, or if you've grown tired of your style or got a new job that requires you to have different clothes.

[@GetOfflineGetGood]

Having read the title and just started the video, is the answer "Because fast fashion is not a system we can fix by correcting our individual consumption"? Disorganized boycotts and consumer choice will never fix this problem. It's going to take mass organization and mass popular movements, and it's going to have to happen here and in the places these things are produced. I just feel like rather than flailing at one another about an incorrect consumption choice, we would be better off spending that energy organizing retail workplaces and trying to use labor power to fight the institutions that actually sell these commodities.

[@GetOfflineGetGood]

Also, subaltern people DO revolt and DO organize. The US and "first world" corporations put a massive amount of effort into anti-union activity, and if we had organized labor here in the first world we could act in mutual solidarity with people organizing in the third world. Internationalism solves that problem with Marxism you talked about.

[@phosphenevision]

It would also be catastrophic if suddenly everyone boycotted fast fashion, the first ones to suffer would be the lowest paid workers suddenly out of a job, their work conditions might be horrendous but not eating is worse. If movements don't contemplate how to integrate or better the working conditions for these people (and just boycott because fast fashion = bad) they are leaving them behind.

[@carinag4635]

@@phosphenevision they’re already suffering.

[@phosphenevision]

@@carinag4635 maybe read my comment again but slower

[@aliviaerin5604]

@@carinag4635 Okay i’d like to see you all pay their bills once they are out of a job.

[@ritiaggarwal995]

9:46 Sati was actually outlawed by a combination of attempts made by Indian reformers and Christian missionaries. Hindus, Muslims and Christians worked together to abolish that. The Raja of Nadia and Mughal kings had also tried to abolish it, but to no avail. Think about it, even India back then was a patriarchal society. Women were BURNING themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres, sometimes bride as young as 13-16. And this because? Widow remarriage was considered "bad" in India, and you weren't supposed to marry again if your husband died. Say what you want about postcolonialism, but this was a really stupid and frankly insensitive example to use. Sati, along with child marriage, has been one of the biggest issues (and wins) for Indian feminists.

[@haileygiabiconi8830]

Yeah I was confused I thought I missed something because she was framing banning Sati was bad?

[@BroeyDeschanel]

I was re-iterating Spivak's stance on the topic, not my own. The example was used to give context to her essay and the idea of Western hegemony. I am not advocating for sati.

[@haileygiabiconi8830]

@@BroeyDeschanel thanks for the clarification!

[@ritiaggarwal995]

@@BroeyDeschanel Tbh that was pretty unclear in the video. I'm glad you clarified it though!

[@BroeyDeschanel]

@@ritiaggarwal995 Sorry about that - I could see how it would be unclear!

[@begona2120]

as a south american student with low income and high expenses, i sometimes feel as a horrible person when i buy cheaper clothing (knowing that those that made it may be suffering) but im always stuck between a rock and a hard place, because i have informed myself that the fashion industry IS the world´s second most contaminating industries (right after the meat industry). its hard to make the right decisions when thrift shops overprice a pair of jeans which i could buy for half a price in retail. its hard to make the right decisions when your wallet is split between transportation, food and environmentally conscious clothes. its hard and also unfair, in my opinion, for us to be expected to ALWAYS make the ethical decision. i´ve found myself being calm with what clothes i purchase after turning vegetarian, 3 years ago. I limited the times i purchase clothes to once or twice a year, and really try to make the most of it. i wear jeans until they rip, and if they dont fit anymore i keep them in case i gain or loose weight. to young people reading this: don´t feel bad for your decisions. if you really think there is no other chance, or you just really liked a cute top for once in a while, go ahead. its consistency what will help the environment, not sudden acts of sustainability that won´t be repeated.

[@BryanBMusic]

I definitely agree that the Global North often erases the struggles of the Global South. However I also struggle with when/where to discuss individual behavior, especially because at one point all of us will be throwing stones in glass houses. For example, someone could call out your waste of resources unnecessarily to add decor to your video (excess shoeboxes, paper bags, print outs, etc). Also most of us across class lines have more than one pair of shoes in the global north. Where should the line be drawn? At the same time I definitely see people weaponize “no ethical consumption under capitalism” as a pass to be inconsiderate. I think it’s really dicey with no clear answer. Overconsumption is an issue but to overly frame it as an individual choice lets the system stay in tact. I think we should encourage each other to do our best and also offer grace when people fall short of perfect. And still place most of the ire at corporations and people in power.

[@kennyb1588]

I like your take a lot it’s very balanced!

[@RealGermanish]

I 100% agree with this take. I would also extend it to meat consumption. I don't expect every single person to be vegan, but we should all be aware of the effects of consuming animal products and should do our best to reduce it and buy more ethically. While there is a lot of positive change that can come from that, in the end we need to put pressure on politicians and companies to stop factory farming though.

[@sleepybeans30]

Very well said.

[@unamejames]

I was poor when fast fashion was replacing all of the outlet stores that used to sell affordable factory rejects of decent quality. Fast fashion doesn't give poor people access to goods they need. It's just a new line of products optimized to extract the maximum profit out of them. My mom was not able to afford a new wardrobe for me every year, but by the time I was in middle school we had to. All of the so-called affordable clothes we were buying fell apart in 8 months.

[@LoveJadybug]

The comments here dismissing the debilitating poverty in the US is very disheartening. Many in the US don’t have clean water, consistent access to shelter, many do not have heating, even those lucky enough to get subsidized housing have to live with abestos and lead. The recent wave of deaths from covid left many children poor and orphaned. The us is very good at hiding poverty but if you go to any major city and see the number of homeless people and the urban decay you would be surprised. People aren’t just poor for trying to keep up with their middle class and higher class counterparts. I find most ppl making the “poor people need this” are middle class or way higher off. I’ve grew up poor and homeless at some points and I trifted everything bc it’s still cheaper than fast fashion. What poor people need is better jobs, better food and schools etc, trendy clothes are the last thing on our minds.

[@lyssia5138]

@@vepri9421 well said. I saw a graphic that showed that global redistribution of wealth would improve the lives of people on the U.S: it's nothing compared to the change it would cause in the Global South

[@LoveJadybug]

@@vepri9421 native Americans and black people surviving genocide would like a word

[@LoveJadybug]

@@vepri9421 five million Americans live on $4 a day, and millions live on $2 a day. You are dismissing the truth, so some research on just how bad the impoverished have it here

[@LoveJadybug]

@@vepri9421 and lots of people on the United States live as bad I am one of them. $2 a day means $60 in a month.

[@bluester7177]

@@vepri9421 Not saying that poverty in the US doesn't exist or is not important or a struggle, but it's still different from poverty in the global south, in sheer scale and structure, in my country 1 dolar= 0,18 cents, there are 13 million people getting less than 25 dollars a month and 52 million getting less the 60 dollars, that's more than 1/4 of the population of my entire country.

[@foxgloved8922]

I always felt frustrated by “no ethical consumption”, it’s sort of washing our hands of responsibility. Important point about how advertising creates the perception of need also. Thanks!

[@nadinesnyder3926]

On a personal level I know I buy clothing because my appearance is something I can control. We can't control the pandemic. We can't control horrible events we hear on the news or even what our leaders do (I live in the US so obviously we as a collective do have more control here, but as an individual your opinion does not matter) but we can control how we look. So the more cynical I feel about the world, the more into fashion I become, knowing it's an escape from facing the pain of existence. Growing up we are constantly given the message that your appearance is what matters. That owning things will make you happy and envied. I know that this is bs but it is so much easier to give into it and buy clothing and makeup and play the game and be accepted by society. Instagram and tiktok have made this worse those apps value appearances over all else. We (in the global north) need to completely change what we value as a society. All of us (middle/upper classes) could own a suitcase of clothing and live in smaller homes that use less land and resources and still be healthy and happy. Most people though do not have the energy to deviate from the norm. We are all tired and feel our lives our meaningless so we fill them with material objects. I don't have a solution to this. I just know that we must start devaluing objects and valuing intrinsic things as a collective, as other comments have said, because not enough people have the courage or time or energy or means to make individual actions that defy societal expectations. Honestly this is a place influencers could be very helpful. If Addison Rae or the Kardashians said hey, all the clothing I own can fit in this suitcase, I'm moving into a smaller home, and have decided to stop purchasing things I don't need and seek joy from experiences and relationships, it might help shift culture a little. Of course they make a living making us feel like shit so they can promote shit we do not need, so that will never happen.

[@redblaquegolden]

My solution to fast fashion issues has been being trans and having a bizarre body (that I love) and being forced to make my own clothing that will fit for years.

[@dorypeacock]

Also in the past most families had a member who could sew, so you had access to fashion through patterns. You couldn’t buy a dress off rack, but you could buy the pattern or emulate it, then recreate the look with locally sourced fabric. My grandma grew up making dresses out of flour or feed sacks. But then it was a status symbol to buy ready made clothes instead of making your own, and that soon replaced making clothes to the point that now we don’t know how to make our own clothes, and locally sourced fabrics are expensive and rare.

[@seavy12309]

I really love the imagery of the boxes. The image of physically/metaphorically unpacking the boxes of the debate, while also doubling as a way to show the sheer amount of “boxes” or narratives around fast fashion. And also the boxes being a nod to the videos of people emptying their fashion hauls from delievered packages is just very satisfying. 👌🏼

[@lauran.p.8319]

As someone who came from a low middle class in a southern country who is claimed to be rich, I can say that the richness of our countries is not spread for everyone!!! It doesnt matter how much of a gdp you have if most of your people is barely affording to eat. And just because someone of the middle class can buy a more sustainable fabric, that does not include people from lower middle classes who are exchanging rice grains to tapioca grains cause it is fucking gettin more expensive due political and economic crisis. The fast fashion sometimes is one of the few companies that offer cheaper products that sometimes need to be bought brand new cause they are fucking hard to find in thrift stores which sometimes can be quite scarce. For example is when I needed to enter in the job market which is highly competitive and shallow and will judge for your appearence way more than expertise and experience, sometimes you dont have fucking time to go hunting for a suitable clothing in thrifting stores when you need to balance family, school and job responsabilities. All that said we also are not the ones making hauls and when we do need to get a brand new clothing it is once in a blue moon cause it is also what we can afford. Not only people are forced to subjugate to overexploitation but are also forced to take part into consuming products that are outcomes of their own exploitation. It sucks but what are the actual answers and actions are people giving??? Non profits and local groups that can make the distribution of clothing are always suffering lack of funding and lack of investment (even suffer from boycotts if your president belives that NGOs are the evil of the world).

[@kawaiimagicalex5170]

yeah i agree.

[@princessplam]

Not the solution but I standardized my closet to uniform it. I’ve given up on trends long ago. I can’t say I’ve bought anything trendy in a long time. I’m being stingy x100!

[@OcyTaviAh]

I think a big part of “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” in youth generations is also part of the emotional fatigue. A lot of kids these days grow up being absolutely soaked in suffering and guilt that’s not their responsibility, and it’s definitely gotten more intense over the years. We are asking these kids to accept their terrible inheritance of a doomed world in a way previous generations have not had to, and to be the ones to change and fix it. Sometimes, people just want to exist and not be made to feel guilty for existing. So it’s often being used as kind of a shorthand for “I didn’t ask for this existence and I am tired of being made to feel guilty for anything I find enjoyment from due to the inequitable systems that we exist in that were set up far before my existence began and to which I truly have no power over.” While it’s a limited and privileged take, it’s not necessarily incorrect. I agree that people in the Global North should do better, it is hard to convince someone that is so overwhelmed with suffering coming from multiple different angles in a more aggressive way than ever seen before that they should take the time to individually be more ethical and feel more guilty about wanting a cute top.

[@megane-chan651]

Overshopping and hauling is a problem with the fashion industry, period. Binge shopping use to be glamorized in a way when rich girls sweep the whole runway off the rack from Chanel and Dior. but when people doing it at a $400 or $500 dollar budget, we invented so many new words and terms to shame people for it.

[@elisabethbuchet-deak1795]

If you haven't read Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas", please please do, it brings this home in a really tangible way

[@JauntyAdventures]

Why did I assume everyone joining hands and chanting "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" while filling their shopping carts at the mall was looting it when she first said it? Like wait, don't dismiss that so quickly.

[@laninfapimentel311]

Let's save that idea for later 😉

[@sharkofjoy]

I like the way you think

[@zhisu2665]

Literally so annoying when "Don't shop fast-fashion" is pushed onto those who are poor more than anyone else when it's the wealthy who are doing $400 hauls from Shein, aliexpress, amazon every week/month. people who buy 10 things a year from fast-fashion are doing nothing compared to the ones who do constant hauls and have shopping addictions [designer is also fast-fashion believe it or not]

[@pisceanbeauty2503]

Unless you have the time to thrift like it’s a power sport, or have the money to buy from pricey brands or have your clothing made, I feel like fast fashion is unavoidable. I think these days people tend to think of companies like Shein, H&M, Fashion Nova, and Zara as fast fashion but the umbrella of fast fashion includes most clothing options available to the masses (speaking from a US vantage point). Even many designer brands have unethical labor practices. Bringing in price and accessibility further complicates matters. As someone who want to buy more sustainably, I find it challenging at times as a plus size gal who really only has a few options to buy *any* clothing that I like that and that fits well. I’ve yet to see a comprehensive list of ethical and sustainable options for plus size people. I do enjoy thrifting, but not everyone has the time to treat shopping like a hobby. I definitely try not to buy from the worst offenders, but sometimes it’s more convenient to go to the Old Navy 10 min from where I live, where I know I can find a certain item, I know it will be in my size, and where I can try it on before I buy it, than take my chances at a thrift store or online.

[@elisecccccccc]

Something related I have been thinking about is how long clothing used to last for. Clothing was never meant to be cheap/affordable - you were meant to have a few items that would last until they wore out and would then be replaced. So if it was expensive in terms of you salary, that was on some level fine because of how long it would have been expected to last. Of course there’s the matter of people not being able to save money so $10 for a top is all they can afford, but I often think about how we can get back to a model of quality over quantity that actually works for people. Another issue in this same vein is the fact that often expensive luxury clothes aren’t that much better quality and also will not last

[@nicolebelcher6769]

The thing is we also can't ask people not to enjoy their lives because they can't afford to do it sustainably. And I know this was already a pretty long video, but the bait and switch move of it's pour responsibility to consume ethically, rather than its our responsibility to create the structural changes needed to solve the problem is a big part of this. We can't boycott our way out of this, and I'm sure if you looked hard enough you'd find out so called "sustainable fashion" isn't sustainable. The trick here which was touched upon is the disposability part of our consumption. It's fine to be into fashion it isn't fine to be constantly cycling our wardrobes to keep up with the 50/year micro trends. Also like the misery of poverty is comparative. The visibility of economic inequality is the main problem. If I see rich people living lavish lives I feel the suffering of my own poor life more acutely. It's about the comparison. It is less miserable to be poor amongst the poor, then poor amongst the rich. You feel the unfairness of that acutely. It's why despite the fact we live in comparative luxury to the kings of old we still feel like our lives our awful, because we know how much better they could be, but have no power to actually achieve that better life. The main point though, is that capitalism and climate change can not be stopped by individual consumer choices. We need real institutional change, but again we lack the power to make that change. So we're left with this weird, I must not buy nice things, because it was made with child labor choice that just leaves us miserable regardless of which choice we make. It's awful, and it's designed to be awful and paralyze our ability to act.

[@niamhleeson3522]

Poverty isn't just about comparison. Hunger, for one, is absolute. So is dying because you couldn't afford the medical care you needed.

[@jenjo1814]

love to see a Guyanese gyal winning this is a great video, the explanation of modern colonialism refocuses the discussion beautifully

[@hmmmmssz870]

I have only one thing to say about those "invented needs" - in these "global north" societies, they can vastly affect your employability - sometimes indirectly. Whether you are socially valued or look as much has impact on more than instagram follower counts, and I feel like people on social media platforms can often forget that when they speak of poverty. Poverty very realistically affects your chances of even sustaining what you *have*. If you do not have the 50 extra dollars/euros for long-term pregnancy prevention and can't take oral bc, if you have a developmental condition and can't afford your medication - LET ALONE if you can't afford something to wear to a job interview.

[@srqaw]

I'm Guyanese too!! (born in Canada) Its pretty strange hearing someone talk about it, since it's such a small county. Happy for representation 😊 -greetings from Toronto Canada

[@carolinelacy242]

A really well-researched, well-argued video. I'm incredibly sick of hearing the type of arguments you encountered on Tik Tok be used as an excuse to continue to over-consume. The onus may not be entirely on the individual to fix the system but that doesn't mean we all don't have the responsibility- to ourselves, our fellow humans, our descendants, and our planet- to just TRY our best!

[@dianam8690]

i feel that poor people have enough on their shoulders without carrying the burden of the problems of the world. when you’re in those trenches you’re really just focused on surviving it’s up to us who have the time and resources to make better choices to do that. It’s definitely nuanced though

[@bishoujo97]

Yes!

[@rafaelatenorio5051]

which “poor people” are you talking about?

[@MEOWMIX3DS]

@@rafaelatenorio5051 yeah, which?

[@dianam8690]

@@maxineo7392 what is the benchmark for “actually poor” at that point you’re also forcing your own expectations of what people SHOULD do with their money. People sometimes need money for their kids or for a new job, personally i’ve had pieces from forever 21 last me 10 years so it has a lot to do with our own relationships with consumerism and the reason behind our purchases

[@moretyquira]

The thing that's so frustrating about the argument with fast fashion/poverty is that people will go out of their way to blame corporations. Like I had an argument with a friend where they were complaining about shoes and how they kept falling apart, and I gently pointed out that a store nearby had good quality shoes and the cost was only slightly more expensive (like I think $10-$30, I don't gouge shoe prices but they're not more expensive than what I see at bigger retail stores), and I had a few pairs that had lasted me several years, as opposed to other places where I'd be lucky to get 6 months wear out of them. I then added, kinda as an afterthought because this kind of stuff is important to me that it was a small business and the shoes are cruelty free. Immediately they went on the defensive like I was judging them and said "it wasn't their fault it's the corporations!" Which like, is true. But it highlights this weird disconnect we have with taking care of our planet. Like, I hate to tell you this but if climate change legislation does go through its not just going to impact the lives of people at the top, it's going to impact everyone. Society's fabric will have to change from the bottom up. Everyone will have to change their lifestyle to consume less and we will probably consume less animal products and buy less shoes. Like this will happen if taking care of our planet takes the center stage of society's conversation, whether we like it or not. The disconnect is incredible. Edit: so clearly this comment was taken in the worst way possible where people automatically assumed that I was talking about poor people where it will break the bank if they spend one cent more than what's being asked of them, and it's their fault there's a climate crisis; I'm not having this argument with people, it will go in circles. My point was specifically if you're a person who can afford to choose, you should be able to choose, when MOST people I KNOW personally CAN choose to not take Ubers or not shop at fast fashion or spend a little bit more upfront to get a better quality item, and they DON'T because it's slightly more comfortable for them in the short term not to. The person I was talking to in this situation has more money than I do (I've seen her paychecks!) and could easily afford a better quality pair of boots if she wanted to; if that doesn't apply to you, fine. Most of us can be honest with ourselves on whether or not that's true and do the math. My point was that a lot of people don't seem to understand that if the care of our planet is made the priority it should be made, then everything will change. For example, if factory farming has caps put onto it, animal product production will be much more expensive which means that a lot of us who consume animal products now may not be able to in the future. Animal products will probably be considered even more of the luxury item it is now and much more expensive. If abusive factories stop being a thing, the fast fashion aka cheap clothes will not be as readily available, meaning that better quality items will be. They seem to think that they can go on living their life as is because well, blame the coorporations, it's not our fault, our way of life is 100% sustainable but these damn coorporations, screw em. And it starts with people who have a choice in whether or not they will support ethically made items/ethical companies and by and large, they are not making that choice.

[@RodriTheMighty]

But the point this change you mentioned, from the bottom up and stuff. That happens because of what the stores offer you. And what you can buy. 10-30 bucks make the difference here.

[@LoveJadybug]

we really have no power compared to corporations who literally buy laws like uber

[@moretyquira]

@@RodriTheMighty i say this with love; if you're so impoverished that paying $120 for shoes as opposed to $100 is a huge, breaking the bank, problem, you have a bigger issue that buying shoes. Especially in the situation where in the long run, I've paid maybe $300 on shoes in the past two years as opposed to friends of mine who have paid $500+ because they're "too poor to afford an extra $30".

[@anakaliahaoa2551]

@@moretyquira Only it's not just an extra $30 for shoes. It's an extra $30 for shoes, an extra $30 for a coat, an extra $30 for the business clothing you need for a single round of interviews in order to get a better job where you'll be able to afford better choices. It's an extra $200 for healthy food. An extra -- And so on and so forth. If you need shoes, you might well need the shoes now and not when you can scrounge another $30 during a tight month.

[@beejls]

@@anakaliahaoa2551 better made items cost more, but last so much longer. I have boots I bought five years ago. Winter boots. Cost me $230.00 . In five years, my cheap relative has spent more on cheap boots that don’t last throughout seasons. i think the only fair argument for buying cheap is that you make so little that you can’t save up for a few months to buy something well made. But.. honestly, is this reality for anyone other that those on the lowest rungs? Overwhelmingly, we Americans can afford to save up to buy better, but we just don’t. We are a spend thrift people.

[@PotatoLoverHere]

This is brilliant. While consumption under captialism is not ethical, it doesn't mean that we can't try to be better. What the people who say that don't understand is that the argument isn't don't buy, it's don't buy in excess, which people refuse to see because they are so jaded about our circumstances. This really hits the nail on the head.

[@kawaiimagicalex5170]

this

[@reikowallach2465]

I won the fashion debate by wearing the same three hoodies, band t-shirts and jeans, and nothing else, daily since age 12 and onwards.

[@SpidermanUndercover]

I wish I could do that but it is so hard not to care what other people think.

[@sta._rina]

Its hard but u just have to fake it till you make it. I used to be rlly anxious about what i wore and how it was old and stuff but now idc

[@emmaphilo4049]

Anti fashion is cool :)

[@christinesarkis4029]

Same. I mean, I have had to replace things over the course of 20 years, but the size and look of my wardrobe has essentially remained the same.

[@TuesdaysArt]

Being able to fit into my clothes from a decade ago and my grandmother's old clothes comes in handy. I don't even remember the last time I bought something "new".

[@viru2011]

Your set design and transitions are always so clever.

[@cenobiten]

I really like the conclusion that you came to at the end of the video, as someone who was sucked into "radical" online spaces between the ages of around 17-21, I definitely have some familiarity with the frustration you feel. While I agree that just the tiny character limit of tiktok comments or twitter posts fails to foster meaningful analytical discourse, I think the main issues with online culture (and the for profit organisations that host them) are deeper than that... I feel there is an appetite for ideological opposition to neoliberal capitalism, which I consider to be a good thing. However this appetite is being met through platforms such as twitter and tiktok that see stimulation (intellectual, analytical, or otherwise) as a highly competitive free market. Their apparatus encourages creators to churn out loud attention grabbing content, Just like the micro trend driven fast fashion industry encourages garment workers and designers to put out attention grabbing collections every fortnight. To me, radical online discourse mirrors fast fashion in this way; content consumers are encouraged to engage with new ideologies so long as it is fun and exciting, and creates a niche that the market can cater to, until no more pleasure can be squeezed out of it, and a slightly different ideology gains traction. And what results is members of these online spaces not actually interested in social critique or achieving some sort of revolution but a group clinging to the power it fought for in the marketplace of ideas. Commodity fetishm of fast fashion can lead to a momentary escape from the meaninglessness of life under late capitalism. Being radical online can feel like this too; the pure bliss of dunking on someone 5-15 years your senior in a tik tok comment section is more enticing than any advertising could be. But ultimately it's just promoting the longevity of your niche internet ideology, and acting as a sedative to the meaninglessness of postmodern living. The term “revolutionary procrastion” springs to mind when describing genuinely well meaning radical teens, who lace their drags with jargon invented by boring German guys from the 1870s and the veneer of radicalism, without actually challenging the status quo. What I'm trying to say may be too big and sprawling to fit in a youtube comment and all of this comes from a former radical online teen myself. A lot of this frustration I'm expressing is also directed at my former self. The remedy that I am suggesting is not that teens get any less radical, it is that their movements become less tainted by the demands of the platforms their culture exists on.

[@janaep2803]

not to be dramatic but I owe you my life for putting this into words so eloquently

[@amy.charis]

Excellent parallel. Instead of ideas sparking the building of more beautiful realities through the collective via social media, it turns into fighting over the virtual land we think we own and defend within this system. Our attempts at social movements are no longer a means of revolutionary change but an aesthetic and trend, a way to get clout within a certain ideological group. Complexity is forced into consumable, punchy bite-sized pieces with no nuance. I agree that young people have a lot of passion that needs be better channeled into other methods if we want to elicit change. Do you have any ideas as to what would be more effective?

[@jena_rese]

I remember when I was young, I got all my clothes from DI, savers, and goodwill and all the girls in my class would make fun of me. They were all wearing downeast, H&M, Vans, Etc. It made me feel really bad because I thought my clothes looked fine, and I didn’t realize that where I purchased them was any part of the credibility of my outfit. I still buy all my clothes from thrift stores, and have only ever purchased from online fast fashion brands a couple times for really expensive items. (Jeans, prom dress, and a swimsuit that would actually fit me - it did not fit me). I don’t think I’ve ever bought clothes from a mall, other than undergarments. I try really hard to be ethical and sustainable, but I just can’t afford it sometimes. I have a friend who buys fast fashion quite often. She is upper middle class (what i’d consider comfortably wealthy, but not rich), and can afford kore expensive clothing. I don’t care if she buys fast fashion even when she doesn’t have to, but she throws away her clothes when she’s done with them. I don’t mean when they’re worn out, I mean when she gets bored and wants new clothes. She doesn’t donate them because it takes to much time and she doesn’t want to drive to the donation center. I adore her with all my heart, but this... it’s literally the only thing about her that bothers me. As a kid who got all their clothes from thrift stores, i loved it when I found a top that was super cute because it can be hit or miss sometimes (and I’m very expressive with my clothing). I’ve talked to her about this before, but she just laughs it off. I really don’t know what to do about it

[@SecretTwilightGirl]

Sometimes I hate the classist argument because as someone who grew up poor and forced to shop fast fashion because my mom could only afford clothing us through layaway or department store credit cards it's not a free pass. I'm not gonna speak for all low-income folks but when you don't know whether there'll be another back to school sale as good as this one or if you'll be able to buy anything even if it is you make clothes LAST. My mom takes such good care of the clothes some of her wardrobe is around 15 years old. And this is basic Old Navy or JC Penny brands. We weren't just buying clothes to buy. We usually waited for really big holiday sales that only happened a couple times per year. We usually only shopped for things we "needed" that had worn down like shoes that somehow always eroded on me by the end of the school year or jeans I'd grown out of. We also rarely, if ever, purged our closets just for our shopping trips. At the end of high school, most of my wardrobe was made up of clothes accumulated since elementary school. I've changed completely fashion-wise and thrift mostly but this still lingers with sleepwear. The last time I bought a "new" pajama set was three years ago. Everything else I've had since I was a teen. I'm glad people are trying not to scapegoat us but overconsumption is something everyone can indulge in. Overconsumption and the ethicality of fast fashion have overlap but they're not always a zero-sum thing. By virtue of being poor a lot of us already do "eco-friendly" methods out of sheer necessity. Even with plastic bags, yes, plastic is never good but my family would re-use them until they literally tore apart. Or memes about POC parents constantly using random old butter containers (we were partial to keeping the plastic containers from cold cuts) for leftovers. There's definitely a choice being made in having Shein hauls every 3 months. We can definitely get into how poor people (anyone really but especially low-income folks) often have scarcity mindsets that influence their spending and consumption but that's another tangent. Overall, poor ppl aren't some Internet argument gotcha you can use or should white knight for. We're all trying to make the best of an unjust, complexly cruel world. These conversations should have more nuance and far less moral T-posing. None of us should be into social justice to feed a morality complex, it defeats the whole purpose of what we're even working towards.

[@kawaiimagicalex5170]

same here i was born like poor. mom buy not so much for me and my sister. im tired of this shit

[@itsimmy3845]

I've noticed the same people who argue that ethical consumption is classist, are they same people posting "500-1000$ SHIEN Haul" videos. They throw around the word classism as a defence for their overconsumption. I'm sorry emily but you do not need 500$ worth of shein tops that will go out of fashion in a month. Based on the amount you are posting about spending on clothing alone, you can afford to be more conscious of your spendings.

[@MTeeThoughts]

This was so good! Thank you for bringing nuance and complications to this conversation.

[@laureneck2177]

me when im embarassed i got ratioed: