Why Protoss race struggles to win any Premier Tournament in StarCraft 2

[@EsportsStoryteller]

Check out this video about Protoss race issues that is overlapping with this topic - kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqmzaaqoptdknK8 Why the mothership core got deleted - kzbin.info/www/bejne/onabg4GuebGVea8 Timecodes: 00:00 Protoss winrates are falling 00:30 Reason №1 02:15 Reason №2 02:43 Reason №3 03:25 Reason №4

[@lothar3073]

I think I read someone summarizing the Protoss issues pretty well: A gimmicky race loses power when its strategies are figured out. Relying on gimmicky stuff is just a knowledge battle, once people download the solution, it is over. I always liked the Protoss race as a concept, but their implementation on SC2 is very lacking to me: - Zealots are probably the worst tier 1 unit in the game, dying way too quickly to have any relevance in combat. They are basically mineral dump units at best, used for mineral line harass when you're basically already winning the game. - Stalkers are overused and the faction is over-reliant on them, which means once you figure out what hurts stalkers, you figure out what hurts protoss itself. They are also horribly inefficient in combat, because they are slow projectile units battles take forever with them as they overkill to much. Still, basically the only unit in the faction that translates skill into power. - Disruptors are an awfully designed unit that should just be removed for the sake of both protoss and its opponents. There is no skill and no fun involved, it's just bad full stop. - Colossus are a joke, too many weaknesses, and the reason why Disruptors are needed. - Archons are pathetic, they die too quickly for something SO EXPENSIVE. "But they take so many banelings in the face" who cares? They cost over 200 gas, they die like flies to marines. Their AoE damage is overrated too. - High Templar only exist against zerg, against terran they are just a joke, actually, can we talk about how Ghosts just completely invalidade the entire Protoss faction? Like, what is even the point to fight after Ghosts appear? Just GG no RE. - Adepts are a gimmick. - Sentries are a gimmick. - Dark Templar are a gimmick. Stealth sucks in this game. - Immortals take too long to build, great units, too inaccessible. A huge mistake in my opinion. - Phoenixes are amazing. - Oracles are a necessity. - Void Rays exist I guess? Who makes them? - Tempests exist I guess? Who makes them? - Carriers are a pain to balance, they are either monsters or a pathetic thing. - And then the Mothership, what is it even supposed to be? Protoss just needs units that work and do the goddamn job, where are they?

[@lovelybeautiful-nd9jk]

I main Protoss. I feel that stalkers don’t have enough hp, they are too brittle. In sc1 dragoons are kinda tanky. With a top tier blink micro, you only win when “you should have won anyway”… but when you should have lost, blink micro aint saving you one bit…. I also feel I got nothing to build. Colossus gets wrecked by vipers and vikings, carriers too. Im supposed to have the best unit in the game, and they just get picked off from safety by a viper, and it’s just disheartening to lose that 300 minerals 200 gas for a hook. Not to mention that you have to get to carriers, that is in itself a strategy, but even when you do that its not guarantee. Adepts I dint like them. Zealots are slow… abd the marauders shells makes thme easy pickings. It’s a really strong race for real… but… if you try to place safe its disgusting, and I feel it shouldn’t be that way. I think that terran turrets and ghost emp is just what the fuck… the emp on a protoss ball does like 2000 damages, and then marines with high dps kills everything. Also the storm feels weak. The sc1 storm you kill shit. The sc2 storm feels like bad weather. But yeah, Ive got master with protoss so I have nothing to complain, and Id be far away from master with other races, but idk. I feel they would have felt stronger, more dangerous, and able to turtle, or max out 200 and win…. But if you max out to win, terran with 300 apm has turrets and 10 planetary bases and very efficient units and your just not going trought that without losing units, and if you turtle against zerg, you just get vipered out, or corrupter out, and its strange to me how good corrupters are, zerg suppose to swarm you and im okay with tht I love it, but the corrupter is sooo tanky.

[@transitcombine9057]

​@@lovelybeautiful-nd9jkThe void Ray and Stalker are The counter. But One have a cost expensive and The other have a low atacó speed

[@nickoslekkas3336]

Toss race just approached it's plateau imo, everything abusable has been nerfed throughout the years or other races have learned how to defend it near perfectly, you can do adept glaves all ins and blink stalker pressure for so many years after all.

[@kya6816]

Yeah immortal sentry timing rush, the voidray, core, fast colossus, tempest etc etc..... Those small nurfs for ladder effects pro level games

[@dannyy8619]

Pretty much this. The protoss strats are just so figured out.

[@michael6909]

It comes down to a low-skill ceiling. It is an easy race to play at low-mid ranks, but there needs to be more micro potential at the top level. The race relies heavily on AOE (disruptor, colossi, storm, etc.), mainly due to your opponent's mistakes rather than yourself. Endgame is a similar issue of low micro potential with carriers, etc. I think the best thing would be a new unit that could legitimately be the equivalent of a marine or Zergling, even into the late game (I feel like zealots do not do enough and can be considerably less cost-efficient later on).

[@nickoslekkas3336]

@@michael6909 last chance for a redesign was when lotv dropped, there is no way toss is getting a new unit with a balance council ran by pro players and ESL

[@michael6909]

@@nickoslekkas3336 Oh, this game is long past a new unit being added. But it would likely be the best way to create a higher skill ceiling for the race.

[@madumlao]

I think there was a tastosis comment about how if Terran wins its the amazing micro but if Protoss wins its the fucking lasers

[@flapjacktv2165]

that was incontrol

[@madumlao]

man incontrol was the best

[@jasonjia123]

Yup. That a-move micro is a hell of a skill!

[@thepcfd]

problem may be you can get 300% value with micro on terrans but protos only have a-move

[@GigaTyGuy]

Things that are detracting from the joy of watching my favorite race: * disruptors are all or nothing and at the highest levels of play, usually nothing. Yes, big booms are cool. But at world tournament levels, they're very rare. And the slow 'ruptors are usually getting picked off before detonation. * collosus are wicked easy to counter. They're just not scary at all anymore. Usually only get brought out in timing attacks, to have their counter reach critical mass before real damage is done, and then get discarded with a tech switch. * toss has to work so much harder for vision/detection. Outside the defense buildings, they're the only race that *has* to spend supply for detection. And their detection units kinda suck at staying alive in mid to late game.

[@shinyhunterlens]

I feel like protoss has been comically weak vs. terran for the entire history of the game, but in the early days the SC2 KZbinrs based the entire terran balance discourse on whether or not terran could go mech. Like, "protoss isn't weak vs terran because terran can't even mech if x, y, or z happens!" So what if their other until combos work anyways?

[@Zadrigo]

There are many problems on pro level but also below, and most important is well described in this video - tier 1 army is next to useless. But even later, the only decent unit is Immortal, which doesn't shoot up. Splash units need to hit but have hard counters (ghost who drain templars) or low impact (colossi are good vs light but vs other units deal almost no damage, but are vulnerable to antiair, disruptors were nerfed). Result is that Protoss army has many vulnerabilities that can be exploited by other races, and needs to defend and hug the base/battery almost always, which gets pretty boring. Also, high supply value and unit cost makes it harder to scout with default units, and scouting is very risky because if you loose couple of units it can snowball very easily. Not sure what can be done. On high level, yes, we can wait for our Lord and Savior Parting to return, wait for Stats to get in form, but fundamental problem is that on lower levels other races playstyle is far more comfortable. Every Terran even in Diamond can copy Maru's or Cure's push timings, and even if they are 15-30 secs late, Protoss player needs a lot of skill and luck to defend because he needs to invest in proper units/techologies, needs batteries, needs good surround...and even then he only defended. But he can be attacked by so many different units - tanks, liberators, mines, bio, and almost all of these require rather different units and methods to deal with. Not to mention that Protoss army relatively similar in strength can be split into two parts that are simply not enough. Like, if you face bio and Terran splits it, those are still 2 groups of bio, but if you split 3 colossi and send group with only 1 colossi against the bigger Terran bio group, you loose the game. And so on, and so on.

[@Hayman1257]

The real problem is that robo units take too long to build and emp not only makes high Templar useless but also takes shields away from the Protoss army making archons useless and all other units weak

[@dadavian]

No self heal and will rely on shield then EMP. Awts

[@Omgtired]

Pretty much spot on analysis, I'd say now protoss find themselves weaker on all stages, skytoss is not as scary as it was, I'd say both lategame terran and zerg have more powerfull.

[@Templarfreak]

i think for the most part most of the community does understand Protoss does have 1 key issue that does hold them back balance-wise: they dont really have any good lategame scaling options for their ground units that stack up with Zerg and Terran. Zealots and Stalkers also dont need this lategame scaling, but other Gateway or even Robo units could almost certainly benefit from having a very strong but very tech-heavy upgrade, like being at robo support but being locked behind templar archives but massively improving a unit. generally, the reason why such upgrades didnt really exist much at all in SC2 is because it was apart of Blizzard's approach to "streamline" the game more. they removed many lategame upgrades because they had the mentality that these lategame upgrades were meaningless since you wouldnt want to use the units without those upgrades anyway (ex: SC1 Ultra's armor and speed upgrades). over the years, especially recently, this mentality has been slowly being undone, especially with community feedback. Z in particular has had lategame changes made to them, with Lurkers and Ultralisks, and T has seen some buffs to their lategame, but no similar love has really been given to the Protoss yet. Colossus or Disruptors would probably benefit the most out of any ground Protoss unit from some kind of upgrade that greatly improves their lategame potential. i would lean more toward the Colossus because that sounds like a really hard task to do with Disruptors but then still keeping them feeling fair. Immortals might also benefit from having something. but i think there are 2 Protoss units that are often overlooked, and that is the Sentry and the Adept. i think these two units, while maybe not able to benefit the most from such changes, would be very welcome to have lategame changes made to them. especially the Sentry, which is often a favorite amongst both players and viewers but that has fallen off quite a bit recently.

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

I didn't read this all but I think I saw where you were going and agree. Protoss has weak spellcasting compared to zerg, and has no good counters against half of the terran units.

[@jasonjia123]

@@AntiDoctor-cx2jdya it doesn’t help that the T secondary literally hard counters the toss secondary unit. I don’t know wtf blizzard was thinking when they designed this shit lol. And if anyone thinks “we’ll marauders can’t attack air”…what good does that do the toss when a bio ball timing attack comes and wipes out your entire stalker zealot comp early game???

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

@@jasonjia123 Terran has like 6 units that hard counter airtoss. Sometimes protoss gets way ahead and then builds airtoss and finishes the game and looks strong, but the airtoss did nothing to gain the advantage and doesn't deserve credit for those wins.

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

​@@jasonjia123 if protoss didn't waste time with harass units, they could always just straight up kill protoss. Or if terran knew how to expand like other races. They've been babied so much they never learned how to play the game.

[@transitcombine9057]

Only added The centynel - Now The guardian shield can be switch a pasive auto

[@sekisc]

Back in 2010, these kinds of developments were so hard to forsee, and they are part of the core design of the race. Image how hard it is right now, to design a race in Stormgate to be balanced for the next 20-30 years across different skill levels xD

[@Lanzetsu]

Yeah I was thinking exactly the same... they better think thrice each core mechanic for the races in the game.

[@aaronfarley2857]

I honestly believe that those high impact splash units don't need much changes and they should focus on buffing gateway units. I'm honestly happy they nerfed protoss air as a protoss myself. Protoss really just needs more answers to things like ghosts, and heavy bio pushes that don't have to rely on big splash.

[@neoluna1172]

yeah I agree, gateway tech needs help, though perhaps cloossi and disruptors could do with a minor durability buff

[@zombi1034]

make stalkers hit 2 targets at a time😊

[@piodd4]

The problem with toss and buffing a gate units its fact that toss can warp units next too enamy base So defender lose any advantage ( especial zerg becouse zerg can't make good wall in most scenarios ) So if you buff the gate unit then all all in will became too powerfull this is problem in core toss designe That they decide to make a warp mechanic.

[@youknownothing1242]

I say give ruptor balls heat seeking xD

[@jasonjia123]

@@zombi1034this. Please this lol

[@sleeper1855]

The problem with toss balance has always been warp-in. When gateway units are efficient vs other tier 1 units, attack timings with warp in become way too strong. So gateway units are balanced down, which makes toss rely on other things like splash damage to compete in the mid game

[@josephbraun7984]

What if warp prisms could only warp in a set supply of units (maybe 8 to match carrying capacity)?

[@jasonjia123]

Ya agreed but it’s so clear that mid game is full of just shot and a prayer gimmicks for toss. Disruptor sucks on def so you better hope you have the timing to attack with them. Colossi are absolute crap now since they cost as much as a friggin carrier and need an upgrade to be even somewhat useful. Blizz devs are idiots- they should’ve just made warp gate take longer to research but not nerfed the hell out of gateway units

[@jonathannaranjo5105]

in my op;inion. the mothership core was a crucial unit that allowed the protoss to defend bases and allins, and also get better scouting. In the current meta protoss has to go oracle against zerg to defend his thirdbase, no other openings are viable to stop the zerg from killing an early thirdbase. MSC can allow protosses to become more deceptive with their openings and have more variety. Simply bringing back the MSC would help. Another change I think is useful is buffing the colossus range. Colossus have became useless in all 3 matchups. longer range can make them more viable and less susceptible to abducts or vikings.

[@malusmundus-9605]

do not speak of the mothership core... just don't

[@Kozhn]

A few suggestions from my protoss perspective. A few things that might help a bit without ruining low ranks, I think. 1. Nexus should have a built in fast warp field around it. 2. Give the darkshrine an upgrade that increases adept range and allows their damage to be all around and not just against lite and/or and upgrade that gives the sentry a cloak like a DTs. Or maybe deal damage over time to enemy units inside a guardian shield. 3. Allow the colossus to shoot at air units, cause tall plus lasers. Might help them feel less hit or miss, leave that to the disruptor. 4. Give mothership pickup/drop abilities like a prism but twice the carry capacity and pickup range, but no warp field. 5. Make zealot cost 75. 6. Delete the damn voidray and just blend it into a cheaper version of the tempest, or vise versa. An emotional suggestion.

[@enriquegarciacota3914]

It’s the race that needs more micro, and yet they only have 3 fingers

[@Ghost-YouTubeIsGarbage]

its too late to talk about that since most of the players have already left playing starcraft or left playing protoss. all these issues were well-known for years, but developers were mostly focused on satisfying average simple-minded player base and were fixing minor details, rather than taking a general and serious approach. now, as a result of developers' incompetence, we have what we have.

[@alexandrecorbineau2107]

You know the balance is bad when pretty much all terran pros said as Jonkopping that Terran is strong atm xd

[@vectrom21]

When even the whiniest race say they are the strongest, you know things have gotten out of hand!

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

It only took them 5 goddamn years to admit it

[@jasonjia123]

@@CorwinTheOneAndOnlyand yet idiots online still won’t admit it haha. Go to so many videos and read the comments of these low mmr/iq Terrans trying to argue they aren’t OP

[@transitcombine9057]

​@@jasonjia123it's sad that The terran and zerg can do a Lot of variación with don't perjudiced a Lot their economy

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

The problem is that all good things that were supposed to be protoss characteristics were given to the terrans. And for that matter all good things in general were given to the terrans. Protoss cant have nice things because terran players will complain and then get nicer things. -zerg player

[@kathorsees]

Preach, bröther

[@jasonjia123]

Thank you for speaking the truth. Any Terran that thinks they’re good…news flash bud you play the low skill tier race with the most OP units. Zerg is highest skill cap. Toss and Terran equivalent. Yet blizzard idiotically decided that Terran should have 3 times as much harass options, a marauder that hard counters stalkers and kites zealots once it has concuss, and endless scan ability to get vision and detection.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

@@jasonjia123 nah as much as i hate to admit it because i hate terran players, a good half of terran play requires an obscene amount of skill to pull off. Guys like byun are extremely skilled players. Takes a lot of *skill* to do what they all do with bio. My problem is that terrans best play is to out SKILL you in a fucking STRATEGY game. That's what i hate. Aside from stim bio, which has objectively killed this game, terran also has some obviously bullshit units like ghosts and widowmines which arent really skill based, theyre more like "sTrAtEgY uNiTs" (build when opponent is X to win free tempo)

[@matthewkay1327]

Make the robo bay units stronger? Make batteries mobile? Non yoikable mothership? Cleave for zealots? Plasma beams that shoot through multiple units?

[@fabiancalderon6729]

No one wants a solution

[@alkaratus9189]

Or instead of disruptors add reavers or avangardiers

[@Demopans5990]

Give warp prisms cloaking upgrades.

[@jasonjia123]

I remember when sc2 first came out and I thought to myself “is it just me, or does the Terran secondary basic unit (rauder) absolutely crush the toss secondary (stalker)? A near decade later, I see I was right and that blizzard always expected Toss to be underpowered. I can handle that when it comes to PvZ cuz Z is higher skill cap. But for PvT the imbalance is out of this world. Thanks Bluxzard, bunch of shit Terran players on the dev team

[@Kenb3d1]

Definitely noticed the lack of major Protoss results of late. Hard to know exactly what to suggest to fix it. Maybe a slight buff to late game air toss, and if storm charged shields slightly? I wouldn't be averse to bringing back the old Archon toilet.

[@piodd4]

late game air toss nooo! below GM air toss is a f.... joke too easy to execute. The problem with toss is that toss below GM (top 100 GM ) is easy race but then you just can't make more For example carrier If you make army with carrier + 4 archons + 4 ht Mid master will controll that army actually the same as GM becouse there is nothing more to add If we talk only about carrier then diamond player will controll this army as GM This is why air toss is nightmare for not pro players but suck at pro level Becous its "auto played style"

[@vectrom21]

Yeah, storm should stop hurting allies. There is no reason for it to do that. Besides tanks and widow mines no other allied AoE source hurts your own units. If Fungals, Lurker, Banes and vipers won't hurt your own units, why should storm do it?!

[@piodd4]

@@vectrom21 nah strom has to make dmg becouse if no friendly fire you will can non stop running zalot + ht and kill enamy too easy but now you can't non stop run zalot and use strom becouse you kill your own zalots

[@vectrom21]

@@piodd4 I don't see how that would be a problem. Seems reasonable to me.

[@jasonjia123]

@@piodd4lol I don’t understand anything you said

[@malusmundus-9605]

people saying this is only a problem at the top are dead wrong... I shouldn't auto-lose because I lost 1-2 key units, and if it's going to be that way then EVERY UNIT NEEDS IT'S HEALTH BUFFED- INCLUDING ZERG AND TERRANS SO THAT THE GAME IS LESS SHARP AND WE HUMANS CAN ACTUALLY PROTECT OUR UNITS WITHOUT BEING GODS. Toss worked in brood war because the game was less sharp- we had time to react and protect our expensive units. In sc2 if your reaction time slips for a second we are punished harder than the other two races by a long shot. SERIOUSLY, if they would just buff every unit's health (not counting workers/interceptors etc) by let's say... 20 percent then that oughta do it. I mean, terran and zerg can afford to lose some units (especially zerg, i mean, that's their thing) but we can't, which is fine, but it shouldn't be THAT damn hard... that's the problem. That's always been the problem.

[@DarthCheesuS]

Phase mode on the warp prism needs to go so they can buff gateway units to be better straight up fighters rather than just harassment tools

[@DotaMobaUnionRu]

Just give a prism an ability to make pylon field faster, and make warps onto prism go slower with out proxy pylon. So that warp prism reinforcements wouldn't be so fast. Then update tier 1 gateway army.

[@rahawala]

This is also the area of the game where it seems it’s been the most challenging to balance elite and casual level play simultaneously.

[@khzzzzzzzz]

Dota 2 does it perfectly, but are differents type of games

[@imData]

There is 2 solutions I've thought of a long time ago. The first one was removing the "armored" tag from the stalker (and maybe the immortal and the colossi) and make the tank and the lurker better vs mechanical units in addition to their buff vs armored. The second one was bringing back the shield upgrade for adept (+50 shields 100/100 100 sec research). This would literally make the stalker way more relevant at all stages of the game in PvT without impacting the PvZ while allowing the adept to exist past early game.

[@benismann]

you can't just unmake immortals armored that doesnt make any sense! What's next? Ghosts wont be light units? Oh wait....

[@Spartanoffaith]

Im glad they made it so fungal growth is now a given on infestors as they spawn but the amulet that protoss had to upgrade as well as storm to give them storm on spawn was removed.

[@thirion1850]

Personally I would add some kind of late game zealot upgrade, similar to adrenal gland. Maybe it requires fleet beacon, but gives them either more tankiness, or some sort of on-death ability. This would give toss armies way more chunkiness, letting them dive onto their opponents without immediately losing the tech cream of their force.

[@MrSholer]

i'm a Terran player but I agreed, zealots struck fear in my heart in Broodwar but now they just seem worse than marines and lings.

[@GrippeeTV]

@@MrSholerliterally their only purpose is to soak up initial splash damage and worker runby’s, they can’t fight for shit

[@transitcombine9057]

​@@GrippeeTVonly have One moment and is with a zerglint (when have The +1 damage )

[@tsundude4320]

Maybe make the sentry useful again

[@kya6816]

Ture i want see more force field arts

[@ManDuderGuy]

I say give sentry a research upgrade that either buffs sentry dmg/hp or enhances the forcefields (unbreakable?) and guardian shield (reduces EMP drain?)

[@transitcombine9057]

​@@ManDuderGuy "The energy ability now transform in a ability and can switch to manual or pasive" 75/75 or 125/125 when You unlock in The council (i forget The name but is That build That can upgrade The speed and tp stalkers)

[@ManDuderGuy]

@@transitcombine9057 We can only dream about it :*(

[@Defileros]

Cuz the whole race has been turned into a bunch of spellcasters and aoe bursts

[@Fimbu1vetr]

Pre and post patch statistics. DH Masters Atlanta 2022 Main event ZvP - 45.6% PvT- 45.7% ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Summer Main event ZvP- 58.6% PvT- 33.3% Regional results DH Masters Atlanta 2022 Regionals ZvP - 46.8% PvT- 48.7% ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Summer: Regionals Statistics ZvP- 61.8% PvT- 42.5% Super battery and disruptor nerfs were huge. The good toss players playing are the same.

[@mark11tz]

Recent GSL: PvT 33% Recent WardiTV: PvT 33% (with maxpax and hero and without Serral and Maru)

[@philh2932]

Small meaningless sample size.

[@Fimbu1vetr]

@@philh2932 Protoss players are just worse than Zergs and Terrans right? It's just the players obviously, not the patches (Suddenly toss is doing well again after this latest patch). Toss has had many world class players; yet none of them can win anymore. Obviously they're lazy and Terran and Zergs just work harder or are just better players. herO wins GSL and DH Atlanta? Time to nerf disruptor purification nova and super battery. What happens? No protoss player has won a premier since. And then we nerf disruptors supply? So... Basically we've had 2 void ray nerfs, 2 battery nerfs (super and if not near nexus), 2 disruptor nerfs, DT attack delay after blink, and interceptor priority nerf. For... slightly faster forge upgrades, faster sentries (+2 seconds guardian shield let's go), slightly faster HTs, archon size, immortal barrier taking first hit, slightly cheaper shield upgrades, stasis ward vision, and tempest acceleration. So huge nerfs and almost inconsequential buffs. Disruptor and battery nerfs would be similar to increasing siege tank supply to 4, reducing their splash damage area, and decreasing medivac healing rate by 25%. I looked at the stats pre and post disruptor/super battery nerfs with 2022 DH Atlanta to 2023 Masters Main event. Feel free to correct if anything is incorrect. In the main events of DH Atlanta 2022 and Masters 2023, player skill is accounted for because all the top players are there except Maxpax (but he's not there in either event) and Reynor (in DH Atlanta 2022). Reynor not being there likely decreases ZvP winrates in 2022. However, he played a total of 2 ZvP games in Masters 2023; remove those from the data and everyone else important is still there. Note, this is a total of 243 games before and after patch so this isn't your "Oh well clearly toss made a mistake in 1 game so they lost cuz lol bad protoss players." PvT DH Atlanta 2022 - 48.7% PvT Masters 2023 Summer- 42.5% Hypothesis, PvT winrates are the same pre and post patch, p1-p2 = 0. Assumptions- a bunch of shit is >5, which it is. phat = (x1+x2)/(n1+n2) = (76+37)/(156/87) = 0.465 Z = (p1-p2)/sqrt [phat*(1-phat) *(1/n1 + 1/n2)] = (48.7-42.5)/sqrt[0.465*(1-0.465)*(1/156+1/87)] = 6.2/sqrt 0.004453 = 92.91 At alpha = 0.01, the critical value is 2.58. Since Z > critical value, PvT winrates were significantly worse after the patch in these tournaments. ZvP went even more in favor of zerg after patch so obviously significant as well. This doesnt include the latest patches, but we can see the impact of super battery and disruptors nerfs.

[@marjimanrts]

See. As zerg is u lose army. U can rebuild because its cheaper. As protos one thing goes wrong. You are dead. Because nothing is cheap. You dont have tanks to turtle. You just cannot stimn and destroy enemy straight up. Hence they call it race of gimmicks. With stalkers you rely on blink micro and etc etc for all the units. There is hardly anything like straight up go and dive. I think, get stalkers another late game tech to absorb some damage. Or give immortals something that counters air like those thors.

[@piodd4]

As zerg is u lose army. U can rebuild because its cheaper . ACh thinking like "LORE" This is not true i am master player and even at my level if you lose army as zerg you just lose game in 90 % Becouse you can't just loste army and be okey Especiall that zerg have no stacionary defens no wall etc so if you lose fight then enamy can a move to your base (for example terran is the best in this situation especial vs zerg This is why i hate turtle terran at ladder beocuse you can be sooo much ahead thay ou have 95 % for win but you can't end game fast becouse if you try attack him in base you will just lose unit for nothing and then lose game but if you do it slow then game took +40 min )

[@marjimanrts]

@@piodd4I was talking in comparison to protos. Zerg can rebuild way cheaper. And if you play vs Marines u would know that your Colossus and blasters go down like flies unles you have big army supporting them.

[@philh2932]

Ever heard of shield batteries and cannons?

[@Demopans5990]

That just leads to everyone cannon rushing

[@michaelmart456]

A race that is based on spell casters and shields can have both negated by a single unit. The fact that this has not been changed is the biggest cause of bullshit. Also, Thors can beat EVERY SINGLE protoss unit 1v1. So now you have a situation where Thor/Ghost compositions hard counter every single Protoss composition.

[@benismann]

what protoss unit costs as much as a thor? (except maybe carrier and mothership but mothership isnt a fighting unit anyways)

[@DarkMoon309]

So I think many people here summarize the situation quite well - Protoss must relies on units' unique abilities to win, while the units themselves aint truly what they are - cost efficient. Those so-called "unique abilities" are really just storm and disrupter shot, and both are quite easy to counter, and once countered, the race is just... high HP unit with terrible cost - the complete opposite of what the race is supposed to be. Oh and dont forget Skytoss - probably the lamest and most ridiculous units in the current meta Other races have all-purpose units that are excellent at any stage of the game, P doesnt, P units must relies on each other on all stages to be usable. And if any parts of that unit composition is gone, P is done for lol.

[@GrippeeTV]

Imo Protoss’s biggest weakness is simply the lack of mobility in their late game armies. Stalkers and Zealots are total fodder once mid game hits and their tech units are just too slow(carriers, colossus, archons, High Templar, immortals, disruptors, tempests)and the players are SO good at the game now that multiple attacks are happening at the same time and Protoss armies just can’t keep up without recall. It seems they’re just forced into defensive play more often than not since their armies can’t reliably move out without having to recall to defend counter attacks and they can’t split their armies as easily because their units take so much more supply that their armies are almost always smaller and way less cost effective - and they need splash damage because of how weak gateway units are to the other tier 1 units, and the splash damage units are just too weak to the other races casters like Vipers, Infestors and Ghosts. Honestly, I think the batteries should be reverted because Protoss NEEDS those extra few seconds to reposition their armies and make decisions.

[@jasonjia123]

Here’s a fun fact for everyone- I took a break from sc for a while. Came back and played my fave toss. Couldn’t ladder past plat. I switch to Terran and after a day of unranked, switched to ladder. I was masters in no time. Terran is so much easier to win with it’s not even funny. To any T that thinks their a-move micro and hot keyed drops are indicative of higher skill…im just here to tell you it’s because we have better options as T lol

[@benismann]

Oh-uh, it's not a move micro, it's hit T and THEN A move micro, you dont understand!

[@ihabiano]

I'm convinced that a Zerg parasite has infiltrated the SC dev team.

[@champlynyang5809]

I feel like buffing colossus seems to be a better suggestion like lowering the tier and decreasing the price. Since it would balance the Protoss. But I was thinking making warp robotic facilities might be better but would put Protoss really unbalanced. But I agree Protoss needs some unit that are important even though high Templar are your early game aoe unit they can get counter by ghost which could prevent psionic storm. So I think buffing colossus by lowering tier is a better idea since making it cheaper would make it balance. Tier 2 would make colossus good but stalkers they’re alright but I feel like increasing the damage might balance like 16 vs armor 20 might make the stalkers more better. The mid game for Protoss. But having colossus expensive makes it worse because there is a lot of counter colossus has which making it cheaper would be better because the aoe unit will make it better for Protoss and also stalker and high Templar together can be harder to micro as well.

[@baumanmarketinggaming]

Perhaps giving Protoss more mobility by replacing Mothership with Arbiters, for which number won't be limited to 1! Perhaps it would be too OP, but maybe not if gas price of Arbiter would be 350.

[@TheAsmileXD]

I hope they test this change since I really like it. If it is too strong they can always buff the other races. I mean they pretty much forgot about Protoss for so long a few Protoss wins won't matter.

[@lotgc]

I think it this is something they should really do, even if just for a little while. I think reintroducing an old unit like the arbiter could really bring some new life into the game

[@veidro]

@@TheAsmileXD lol, who "they". Game development has been dead for years, running on life support.

[@veidro]

Costs mean nothing with the way that SC2 LotV economy works.

[@josephbraun7984]

Got a few ideas: -Put a limit on how much can be warped in at a prism at a time and add a short cool down so the next round can't be warped in instantaneously. Then gateway units can be rebalanced some to be a little stronger. -Give Immortals a late game upgrade. Either one that gives some amount of splash damage with a similar area to an Archon's splash so Protoss can have a little more consistent splash damage other than just Colossi, or add an upgrade for immortals to hit air units since Protoss anti air is pretty bad outside of Stargate units. The upgrade could be added to the Robo Bay. -Give Stalkers or Adepts a late game upgrade so Protoss has more than just Zealots as a good option for filler units. Stalker range could be decent for anti air, but I'm not sure what a decent Adept upgrade would be.

[@celrak7667]

Why the first one ? Doesn’t seems overpowered at all

[@josephbraun7984]

@@celrak7667 I've heard people talk about how gateway units can't be too strong because Protoss can materialize an army wherever they need. I don't know how much of a balance issue it is, but at least something that could be considered.

[@widowmines231]

immortal can hit air? then every game should be just mass immortal and auto win lol

[@will7466]

Crying Terrans nerfed protoss to the ground

[@skipperg4436]

Duh play like MaxPax. What's the problem? Isn't "play like Maru" was what Terrans heard for years when Z and P were overperforming? That said, +2 Banelings are just disgusting. In a second they can turn game from "Z gg in a minute" to "Z have an advantage". They should not one-shot probes. Or maybe remove its +5 hp upgrade? Also why Queen AA-range is so long?? Liberator range was nerfed long time ago. Also you have like just 2 builds in PvZ - Oracles and Glaive Adepts. And that's it. I believe Protoss need a buff to skill-dependent units, e.g. WP upgrade should also increase its pick-up range by 1 or even by 2. Force Field should be a lot cheaper or should not be destroyed by Ravager bile, or both. I'm also not a fan of Disruptor. Its a choir to both play with it and against it. I would consider the following redesign: make it cheaper, increase ball size BUT make it put units in stasis instead of killing them. Thus making Disruptor much more reliable and at the same way having less "blink and you lost the game" moments. I would also rework Carrier: currently its a brain-dead unit with no control potential. I would replace interceptor with "attack bomber" (that can only attack ground) and "fighter" (that can only attack air) that should be built in the carrier (like every other unit in the game) both of which are stronger than current interceptor. Thus giving player both a choice and a place for a mistake. Finally I would replace Mothership with an Arbiter. PS. Saying that Protoss depends too much on micro and timing pushes when Terran depends on them a lot more than Protoss is a very weak argument.

[@benismann]

k terran

[@justincronkright5025]

I tried watching a few Ro16 games last series & this one too... I just immediately shut them off. As Protoss players were pulling out their odd/off strats GAME 1. They're throwing their whole hand in (cards reference) in not just round 1 it's game 1 of round 1.

[@Floxxoror]

yeah, better win one game, than none....

[@justincronkright5025]

@@Floxxoror Yep yep, the best possible scenario is... 'a win' at the very top for Protoss.

[@a.e.richardson218]

​@@justincronkright5025untill the recent update it was just impossible to win against late game terran you couldn't build stalkers since they auto die to range libs your army is constantly at half hp from emp and bio does enough damage to nullify any tankyess you had While zerg has vipers

[@benismann]

I mean it makes sense to pull off weird strats in first game..

[@johnp1842]

I love protoss for a couple reasons. 1) Efficiency in building, 2) high class/overall stronger units. But yeah when you can get overrun so easily by the numbers game (cheaper and faster tier 1 units from zerg and terran), most games I’ve played as toss usually end in the first 5 minutes. I’ve also played the wait and push method which is where you throw down an early 2nd base, build some defenses, a couple cannons, some units, shield battery, wait for the initial rush, hold them off, then charge with your forces hoping that they sent all they had against you in that initial rush and go from there. But that requires the opponent to actually rush instead of turtling like you. It’s seems very difficult to win as protoss without a good quick zealot rush or cheesing with cannons or whatever.

[@guilhermecesar9185]

More than 10 years ago, I see a caster resuming the protoss meta of that time: "Expand fast or die trying"; and that's the ideia of the race through the years, especially with the nerfs and the "cost eficiency" was more costly to they them the other races, and some tier 1 units can be easily defeated too. The problem of the protoss today is that a protoss army need to be well balanced too win against other races like you need colossi(with thermal lances) to defeat marines+marauders and if you lose 2 of them, you probably lost the fight + they can be easily killed by 4-6 vikings. The same strategie can be used by zergs with use of corruptors while trading many land units against the protoss who lose their key units. I really believe protoss should be reworked to have another aproach on the meta game, or else we will see playoffs composed by 2 races only.

[@flapjacktv2165]

1 marauder and 1 medivac beats a colossi

[@jasonjia123]

@@flapjacktv2165blizzard filled wit Terran players. Who tf thought a basic secondary unit should be so damn good lol

[@kya6816]

I think both brood war and sc2 protoss is banger untill pro level. So its hard to balance. Recent 2~3 years of changes is mostly nerfing low tier abuse meta voidray, battery etc... That impact hit hard for pros. Also retirement and army hits harder sos, zest, parting, trap who made lot of builds and metas were gone, stats and classic are back but looks they cant recover their level yet

[@rassaf159]

Its not about recovering their level, the race got worse by Terrans and Zergs using more of their potential

[@TheAsmileXD]

only the pro level matters. Balance doesn't matter below pro level since it's easy to still win even if one race has an advantage since non-pros can't make use of these advantages. That's why there are so many Protoss GMs at that level winning as Protoss is easy but once you move to the pro level you suddenly can't beat Zergs anymore.

[@kya6816]

@@TheAsmileXD yeah but Blizzard suddleny doing patch patch for ladders recently. From wol to early lov all patches focused more pro level. But i think around 2019~2020 they started thuch lots of ladder stuff. I think thats matters nowadays problem

[@piodd4]

​@@TheAsmileXD Balance metter below GM BECOUSE 99.9% of players are not GM And playing vs air toss every single game is boring as f..... (plus playing that in pvz is much much easier for toss than playing as zerg but just toss can't do more this is "auto pilot playstyle" so its op below top 20 playesr but then its usless becouse autopilot is not enought And many peoply stop playing this game becouse of that And there was a moment with more than 50 % of Toss in GM becouse you can play just void ray + battery and winning vs all not pro players .

[@jordanleighton6893]

4:09 This stuff is more likely related to the fact that by coincidence a significant portion of the high level toss players are doing their military service at the same time rn

[@jordanleighton6893]

Ope. Literally acknowledged 3 seconds afterwards lmao

[@raptorate2872]

na its just balance team is mostly comprised of terran and zerg players. Its not really been a secret, people just overlook it. They do not have a accurate protoss point of view

[@jordanleighton6893]

@@raptorate2872 so why was it happening before the balance council was doing any work on the game?

[@raptorate2872]

@@jordanleighton6893 there was a balance team before the current council lol. I was talking about them but the trend remains the same

[@jordanleighton6893]

@@raptorate2872 so the two completely different groups of people just happened to have the exact same bias. Uhuh. I see

[@RoyalZarak]

Terran and Zerg players can use and rely on cheap units in the late games like marines and medavacs, Queens/ zerglings Once you destroy the Protoss economy in the mid game it’s is pretty much over

[@Yosef_Marks]

I think a fundamental issue is that Protoss, as designed, has a much more gentle learning curve. Lower MMR players can use Protoss' units more efectively than other races, so the units have to be nerfed to not ruin the game for the majority of players... but severely hurting the players at the top.

[@sc2youtube744]

This is the most true issue and really sums up all of the protoss balance issues

[@sc2youtube744]

I think rebalancing toss based on mmr wouldn't be terrible. Like buff protoss at 6000 mmr and higher or something.

[@alphardxyz]

Nobody cares about lower tier players when it comes to balance, competitive games are balanced according to the pro level. Especially on a 13 year old game where there basically aren't any 'noobs' anymore.

[@sc2youtube744]

@alphardxyz if that's actually true, then there's absolutely no reason why protoss hasn't been heavily buffed over the past couple years. I also just dont think thats true. I'm pretty sure in the Zerg kabal balance patch notes they do specifically talk about balancing the game in a way that works for both pros and normies. I agree that since people's livelihoods are on the line, they should be balancing only for the pro level but in reality I don't think that's what they are doing.

[@ThomasDiesch]

I think the best way to enhance protoss but not point casual players a gun at the head is to add abilities for some units. So you have some high micro potential with some units but dont get slaughtered in low elo. They can maybe copy some abilitis from the campaign thats seems usefull for Ranked like for the immortals the shadow canon upgrade in the robo bay or something like that. Clearly you need to look first how this effects the game but in pure stat buffs i think this will be a nightmare for Casual SC 2 Ranked.

[@darkstrike055]

Protoss needs a solid ground army that does not fade as game time progresses as well as stronger defenders advantage to defend rushes/expos better. If it were up to me, I would move the Immortal to the gateway, Stats and cost reduced accordingly, to give the base army some real muscle. As well as late game upgrade for all gateway units like +20 shields to keep more relevant later game. Then, give canons +1 shield armor while in a Nexus enhanced matrix as well as a mid game upgrade for shield batteries that let them heal 1 additional unit at a time.

[@AG.z]

So Proross is a ladder race when you a-move air toss straight to master...?

[@estebancantero4751]

Totally agree! Is like for the first time Protoss need to actually multitask and divide their armies instead of just A moving.. Terran is dropping 3 multiple locations while defending zealots drops at the main, and protoss should just A move?? I don't think so.. Protoss players need to get faster.. There was never a protoss pro player known for his speed.. It's always strategy and full cannoing every base with shield in the later stages of the game.. It's good to see them finally multitasking

[@nickoslekkas3336]

that's viking/bc you are mistaken

[@Aromatic-ring]

@@nickoslekkas3336 Tf? Protoss is the easiest race don’t even argue 😂

[@nickoslekkas3336]

@@Aromatic-ring No it's not, every race has ridiculously easy cheese or strats to execute and get high on ladder everything else is just plat talk lol

[@piodd4]

@@estebancantero4751 i think that can make problem with "local minimul " players always play toss in someway. Suboptimal way but you can get to better style just by makeing small step you have to completly change the style . but nobody do it becouse everyone start by making the "easy toss style" . This is why toss are slow XD

[@nevzataydin1]

do you remember how broken protoss was with army-deleting high templars and arbiters in starcraft 1?

[@adamnevraumont4027]

I think it is the lack of 1 range on collossus.

[@christophkuntz8523]

Vs Zerg it doesn't feel like you don't have a chance. But vs. Terran. And Disruptors are not good, they are good for a lucky shot or if you can win a game in 10 other different ways, but not in an even game. All general makro timings are countered, even lose if you are 10-15 seconds too late. Protoss "progamers" take risks, they must take risks, and they often get opponents who just play standard, and so they lose anyway. Playing Protoss is just exhausting.

[@Floxxoror]

One problem is, that collosi got nerfed years ago. there is no semi-reliable a-click army composition. Especially on pro level, balls are dodged and in skirmish like fashion toss loses like a stalker the zerg 2 lings...next ball....dodged... next unfavourable exchange. corruptor are too fast for skytoss to have a chance and neural makes it completely useless. Observers are way too squishy to defend against it constantly. Stalkers are way too weak and cannot be used as a meatshield when collosi do shit against marauders and roaches. This skill level of the pros got also so high in the last years, that minor imbalances can create great imbalances in winrates. Less mistakes are made, so there is less room for wining a game by just playing better, regardless of race or army composition. That's no problem on the ladder, it makes you win like half the games, and if you do it in plat or diamond does not change the overall gaming experience. But on the edges, bronze league and pro level this is a problem.

[@DoAnear]

As a Protoss I think the reason why our race never wins anything serious is due to what was said in reason #1. T1 units soon end up being useless in the mid game forcing the use of higher tiers. The second reason is that, although the race is on paper "few units but efficient" it's not absolutely true. Our units are not more efficient or powerfull of anything, they are weak, slow and need support, an expensive support while 10 marines can kill 20 or 30 zergling just with a little bit of micro. Try to do it with 10 adept, good luck with that. Terrans can only play the entire game with marines, marauders and medivacs, Zerg the same with roach, hydras and ravagers. The protoss instead to be able to hold armies of 2/3 units must make at least 6 different ones, and in hots it was quite clear, especially against mono swarm hosts and corruptors. It is elementary to lose if you are forced to produce all the tiers to counter just a t1 or t2. The last point is that the race lacks an ability that allows you to deal instant damage or instant kill. Terrans have ghosts that instantly halve toss health and drain their energy and zerg simply grab units all at once killing them instantly. Of course we have distruptors but they are still shots that can be avoided while the other 2 abilities mentioned are almost impossible to dodge. The counter to both of them could be a higher range buff for the ht with the reintroduction of 1 damage per 1 energy point. With this little buff we could counter the viper or infestors and even the ghost while keeping the slow movement speed to consent at the enemy to retreat. I know that my point of view is going to be disapproved by the fan, but it seems pretty clear to me. Anytime i watch a SCHL video i know that the P is going to lose 100% vs the zerg if the game is over 15 minutes. P.S. I wouldn't take Maxpax as an example as the next protoss who will win it all. He is the first to drop events when it comes to the live stages.

[@alkaratus9189]

2 things... Ghost EMP cannot take protoss shields, and Zelots have charge as base skill. Then zealots can be upgraded and get tornado. Then Terran Tier 1 will not be so strong, and they will have to create more mecha units.

[@veldhuizenc]

I think the problem with Protoss is the same as it has always been: It's not practical to buff Gateway units into all-game relevance without fundamentally reworking or removing Warp Gate. As long as it's possible to build Gateway units in a few seconds anywhere on the map, those units (and, therefore, the entire race's ability to defend without tech or take engagements without splash) will always be poor.

[@brandoncrescini2305]

Need to learn "Speshul tectics" now.

[@ovidiumarcu2628]

The main issue is that Protos was designed as a weaker race who has better units for harassing. This works decent at the start of the match if you have good micro or in some certain scenarios. But at later stages of the game the protos units get crushed in a head to head battle unless some mircle disruptors hits or some very good storm hits very hard.

[@javert8425]

As a former casual Protoss player that happened to watch some recent matches and changes, the Protoss now give the vibes of that character / team / card / unit that was probably overpowered back in the day and got everything nerfed in a knee jerk reaction and now plays like a husk of its former self because they got nothing to compensate. Almost every Protoss unit seems to have been nerfed: Colossus, Mothership core, Void Ray, Tempest, Carrier, Archon, Shield Battery (as in the toilet strategy) and as of late Disruptor... is there something that is stronger than before that you makes you feel stronger while using it without feeling cornered into it? I'd be hype for having some of them rebuffed. I've read from comments that Protoss feel too reliant on AoE effects that are all or nothing and can see the logic of the argument. How about making the effect less lethal but easier to land (less damaging to be less swingy but more frequent by requiring less energy or less cooldown for Disruptors and having a larger area of effect)

[@pencilswordfish]

Coming here from 2024. Protoss is still sad. You hit the nail on the head an the backbone tier 1 unit, It's sad that even Blizzard identified the problem years ago with LOTV and tried to fix it with the Adept. Adept was originally designed to be THE core tier1 unit for Toss to make it compete but somehow years later... they just forgot?

[@PhantomHarlock78]

Protoss always lose on base trade. Need to buff recall hability.

[@dannyy8619]

lmfao buff recall? are you kidding me? It already bails protoss early to late game but now just buff it?

[@estebancantero4751]

Yeah! Why not make infinite recall.. And give the ability to all protoss units... Instead of protoss getting better at multitasking and not just a moving

[@alexanerose4820]

You know what Protoss needs? An incentive to keep their units alive. Zerg don't need it (natural regen is a joke), Terran can just repair stuff, and Protoss get what free shields? Maybe if they had something like Mengsks Royal Gurad ability to become veterans so that they can earn their way into scaling into the late game then things would be on the right track

[@RealFableFox]

what you mean natural regen is a joke? the more units and building there is, the more profit you are getting compared to terran. i've seen games where players choose mass muta, and between fight where players remax, I was shocked to see the speed of muta self heal. any attack that cost terran units but fail to destroy hive cluster is wasted because repair is free.

[@alexanerose4820]

@@RealFableFox Roaches and Muta are the exception though. For the rest of the Zerg army if there's no queen on it then you might as well just spawn new ones cuz you ain't reliably bringing queens outside creep to act as glorified healers. And terran losses? A few mules in base and you're pumping out more units or Medivacs if you go bio. Not to mention by the time the hive heals fully Terrans repaired their Command Center, had another one build, and half way to building third one because of repair. Protoss get.... free shields yay -_- So revision: natural regen is mostly a joke just like the Ultralisk ):

[@benismann]

@@RealFableFox oh yea 1 hp per 3 seconds is such high regen rate and it totally doesnt take 2 minutes of no damage for a ZERGLING to heal to full (and let's be real the units you actually want to keep alive have much more hp than that)

[@OhmicContact]

Excellent vid!

[@GabaGhoul0]

who wins, an entire maxed out protoss army or two rauders and a widow mine

[@gmichia]

Protoss was nerfed to the current play style. i mean its the only race with no viable rush, cause everytime a player did a rush build, blizzard will instant nerf.

[@onixxx1984]

Somebody at blizzard must have lost against protoss in the brood war era and wanted revenge against the whole race.

[@thtupid]

IMHO the comment on protoss tier 1 sums it up pretty well and for me, the main reason late game absolutely relies on gimmicky all or nothing AOE. The problem is, because tier 1 is so trash and there is a reliance on higher tier gimmicks, buffing tier 1 will result on toss being OP. Even the addition of the adept did nothing. They fall off a cliff after what, 5 minutes? It's even worse than the reaper. At least the reaper is cheap and fast and you just need 1. Also, the introduction of the disrupter was a total disappointment for me and more for show than actual gameplay satisfaction. It's really fun to watch pros dodge disrupter balls or get obliterated by them. But as a player, they are frustrating to use. One wrong move and bye bye army...an overly expensive army that is just shot up by tier 1 terran units. Widowmines for example, 1 shot stalkers! That's 125mins and 50 gas. Gone. Or yamato. Also one shot 125 mins and 50 gas. What does protoss have that can one shot a marauder? Or even a roach?

[@LionMagnus8]

Remember when protoss had deathballs? me too

[@V_V8838]

1. Warp Prism health nerf hit too hard 2. Immortal should be a Gateway unit that requires a dead Zealot counter to spawn 3. Mothership nerf hit too hard 😅 Some ideas

[@szymonk.7267]

The Zerg is just broken , the queen's are insane good defence in the early game and later they are broken thanks to : production being way faster than the other race They can produce anything anywhere not like fore example terrains which need factory's Baracks etc. whats gives them the option to switch any comp in 20 sek . And the race also has a lot more place for mistakes, they can kill 20 workers in a 100 difrent ways being bailings zerglings or Mutas . This race is WAY stronger than the counterparts

[@benismann]

ok terran (PvT sucks balls for P while PvZ seems to be far more balanced)

[@joshuayoung8496]

idk man really seems like half the problem is literally widow mine drops.... feelsbad

[@flapjacktv2165]

gotta love that bonus splash vs shields being just enough to kill every probe

[@vincentlefur4490]

Maybe the bug that gives colossie an additionnal 1 point range was not a bug after all... RIP my zerglings though 😅

[@Michael_1979]

You are right, I seem to rely on Disruptors and collossus very often

[@LionMagnus8]

This is why I rather go back to watch broodwar, sc2 keep making minor balance changes but the problem lays in its core design. It also doesnt help that protoss due to its lower skill ceiling is the most complained race while they are the weakest at pro level

[@owenthailand]

Not in lower level though, Protoss players there are freakign suck and somehow just a move and make shield battery every where.

[@Grombrindal]

I guess carrier rushes are too difficult for people to figure out

[@caelestigladii]

That only really works on low level players.

[@Shattered-Realm]

Unless you are at least over 6200-6300 MMR balance isn't going to affect you. If you're losing it's not because of IMBA it's because you suck. It means you made more errors in game than your opponent. Even at the highest level Protoss can still win and even a guy like Serral can lose. At the upper extreme of MMR you're always 1 misclick away from a game changing disaster that will lose you the game. And your playing at hundreds of APM per second. Literally each second is a few hundred opportunities to fail badly.

[@zafraz1077]

Except the statistics and what he said is legit... And you just came in spouting rubbish "GG GET GOOD" with trash statements like serral can stoll lose when he dominates most of the times. You a Terran player mate?

[@Shattered-Realm]

@@zafraz1077 Literally read my first sentence. I will repeat it "Unless you are over 6200-6300 MMR balance isn't going to affect you" 99.9% of players are below 6k MMR. So If you are 4k MMR or 4.5k MMR and you lost a game well.... if you don't believe me submit it to Harstem for an IODIS video. At the highest levels it's hard to say whether imbalance is a thing. The sample size is too small. You have 5-10 of the best players in the world who realistically have a shot at winning a tournament. Serral wins because he is better than his opponents. He's 6.9-7k MMR. If he loses to someone with 6.5K MMR is it because of race? You have Serral, Dark, Reynor, Maxpax, Showtime, Maru, and Clem, maybe a few more that are in the god tier of skill. most others are S tier.

[@lupanyu1605]

Protoss are like playing against Zangief in Street Fighter, players hate playing against them, they feel op when their strategies connect, but actually in tournaments they don't perform as good

[@raptorate2872]

snake eyes would like to have a word

[@dbp_pc3500]

Pro StarCraft should and doesn’t transfer to balance patch. It’s easy, just look at overall stats for the majority of players and you will see that Protoss doesn’t struggle at all.

[@benismann]

Ghosts. Protoss can do at least something vs Zerg, but terran just rolls over them with their actually good units and the just go for mass ghosts and take away on average 45% health off ALL units of Protoss. And also drain the energy coz why not lol?

[@daveburgan]

Buff Protoss

[@TheKardred]

Been watching sc and tosses for years now and what I realised is that every race has a great answer for every toss unit. You wont see a toss win when terran pulls out EMP, collosus just flops from a couple cheap vikings. Storms are a joke next to dps from marine marauder on stim. Zerg kills sky toss easy and just playes way faster than toss can catch up in general. Disruptors are a joke high risk and little reward. They gobble up your upkeep for dmg on cooldown, get out of here. Best toss gameplay I seen in years is Maxpax with his zerg style pressure.

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

terrans tell me that protoss wins just as much in money games, they don't care about actual stats. I know the answer, it's mostly lack of spell options that are best exploited by the top tier of players, and 3 ghosts equalizing half the protoss army. Zerg players have more skill, terran players have better units. Sub optimal compositions Too many stalkers (only good in the early game) too many disruptors (zone but don't kill much). For how hard it is to amass, airtoss is really garbage, losing to simple crap without micro like marines, mines, viking, ghost, raven. Protoss has no counter whatsoever to BC. Zerg beats it with corruptors+ p bomb. Protoss is only viable in the very early game. Airtoss can look good if protoss gets ahead first Storm can work occasionally, but is pretty weak most of the time. Feedback is good in theory, but way harder to use than EMP. I think it would do well to have more phoenix-colossus-immortal and less disruptor and stalker. Nexus is far more useless than hatches and Orbitals. Should be able to warp a nexus from a mined out base

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

there are also some more difficult to quantify weaknesses, but you can see them in the IODIS episode with showtime, the terran gets so many advantages due to all the risks protoss has to take to stay viable.

[@attractivegd9531]

The problem you all have is watching the top 16/32 and think everyone in the top should win. To balance is always to balance towards a certain demographic. If your demographic pool is too low it is a problem. The balance goal should be to have 333/333/333 on the top 1 thousand players. It is common in duel sports to have one guy dominate for 10 years, and balancing against him is stupid af.

[@Fimbu1vetr]

Sure someone in sports can dominate for 10 years, but there aren't races and balance patches in pro sports

[@unknownkw]

@@Fimbu1vetr There actually are balance patches in pro sports, like some strategies are straight up banned in NBA because of how abusive and degenerating those tricks were.

[@TheAsmileXD]

The problem is at the start of a tournament Protoss is over-represented and by the time we hit the Ro8 they are under-represented that is a big problem.

[@Fimbu1vetr]

@@unknownkw yeah I'm aware there are rule changes. Are you referring to hand checking? Flopping for free throws is kind of ridiculous too. Anyways yeah rule changes can affect sports, but you're not going to have 30 changes at once like SC2, and separate races that have different abilities.

[@piodd4]

Exacly in chess is a Magnus Carsen for last 8 years XD IF he will be Zerg or Toss or Terran in SC2 He will be nerf as f ...

[@jasonjia123]

And yet we still have idiots saying toss isn’t underpowered. SMH

[@walkernotte3019]

I'm still confused why people are continuing to say terran requires 'god like' micro control. Nearly every protoss unit has an active ability, tf are people on about thinking terran requires more micro than toss

[@zxganon677]

Because it is a gimmicky race with terrible design. Protoss is way more solid in Broodwar.

[@DarthCheesuS]

Tell that to Artosis

[@DrownedInExile]

Bring back the Broodwar classic Corsair!

[@TheAsmileXD]

I honestly think they should just go back to that design for Protoss there is no way to balance a gimmicky race like SC2 Protoss without making it either too OP like in the Immortal Sentry all in era or making it too weak like they are now.

[@hitler69]

@@isaacsteele7986 true, psi storm in bw actually kills. in sc2 it barely does anything

[@piodd4]

@@hitler69 and storm still do it XD And carrier below GM are OP I can simple kill most of master zerg just by carrier + 4ht +4 archons becouse you just a move and click TTTT When zerg practicly always win but only if zerg is 500 apm XD

[@valiantsawyer1684]

100% truth! I can easly destroy toss wit multiple fronts attack. He is so weak

[@a124as]

pvt, EMP OP. PVZ, no good late game energy unit

[@jacketgreen8850]

I'm not a professional player, but according to my feelings, the Protoss are not powerful enough against the mass, although, as planned, they should take quality, there is little variability in the air (maximum 3 oracles and 6 phoenixes at the beginning), dependent on disruptors, poor stasis defense (the mass of photonodes does not play a role and battery per unit), and most units are almost useless or have few uses. I have ideas how to change some Protoss units. Robotics: Immortals: increase the armor shield to 3, and the armor to 5. Increase the passive from 100 shield to 150. And since they are based on dragoons, as an upgrade, you can put an increase in range by 2. Colossus: feels too fragile, and compared to ultralisks, they are made in 2-3 pieces. it is enough to set to increase the armor to 10. Otherwise, I see no reason to change something. Prism: There is nothing wrong with it, it just needs the default upgrade to be accepted. Disruptors: here you need to either change the ability, or change to another unit. With a good split, the sphere is useless. Mothership: leave the passive as it covers, reduce the teleportation energy cost from 100 to 50 (not often used), give her a blink, and she is such a support unit, then it is worth replacing the slowdown sphere with bonus shields for allies by 10-20% ( +10 shield in teamplay for Terrans or Zerg, no matter how much HP). The buff, although sharp, will change the position of the protoss and the meta. There are ideas for other Protoss units and buildings, and for other races, but the text is already long and other units need to be buffed (banshees, royhosts). And yeah, this is my opinion, it should not coincide with others.

[@imaguy7070]

Zest left for military training

[@Олександр45]

The problem is that the Protoss race is so much easier to play that the top Protoss players are much weaker than any Zerg or Terran. And in the most prestigious tournaments where we see the strongest players who can compensate 100% of the problems of their race only due to pure skill, the Protoss cannot compete. If you look at the ratio of wins to the number of players in the ENTIRE game as a whole. The advantage of the Protoss will be absolutely obvious. It takes several times more effort to fight off Skytos than to play them. The same applies to photo rushes for beginners and so on. Even the number of players on them is corny more. And only for the top 1% of players in the world it turns out that the Protoss are not popular. If you bring back the old balance, well, it won't change anything for the top players. Because Serral wins not because he is a Zerg. Because he is Seral. The same is true for Maru. But 99% of other players will suffer. Therefore, your comparison only on the results of tournaments does not make any sense.

[@flapjacktv2165]

both serral and rogue stated (After winning world championships mind you) that if zerg makes it to late game that they should never ever lose

[@Олександр45]

@@flapjacktv2165 This is a serious exaggeration. Because the Zerg are still losing in the late game. This is especially true for the normal 99% of non-world champion players who encounter skytos.

[@LionMagnus8]

It's so sad that Protoss went from a strong race to a gimmick race cuz sc2 devs

[@oKnuTo]

id argue the point about losing player is a mute one yes toss did but so did zerg or terran the differnace the terran and zerg player returned after their miltary. yeah it could have just happend by chance but id agrue that the top tier Toss that went away just looked at the game once they would have been able to compete again and simply agreeded that its not worth the effort. and Partings WCS yeah that has 2 reason first soul train PvZ was busted. if you brake it down the soul train was the only viable build for Toss but it was an pretty good one and the best korean zerg for a long time refused to play BL Infestor it was an gentlemans agreement

[@snowdrop9810]

I think the issue with toss is its quite a bit weak right now plus MaxPax and Hero, the protosd equivalent of the serral reynor dark/clem maru byun (maybe oliviera) tier is slightly less capable AND the race is quite a bit weaker I would say 45-40%wr(closer to 45 likely) in balance if skill is equal. Also, the fact that protoss agression/normal macro is hyper limited is kind of a problem. In PvZ 90% of games are glaives or stargate. in PvT its usually phoenix collossus and 4 gate blink. and the fact that scouting in PvT requires a massive investment from protoss doesnt help(sentry/stargate/observer, all cost a lot of gas)

[@schlechtgut8349]

Other races allow high end players to squeeze more from them

[@i9erek]

The balance team has a deep hatred for the protoss. Probably because Zerg and Terran are the loudest complainers in the community. In fact, if you go to the forums now, you can read how they are still complaining about Protoss being OP even when it's not winning any premier tournament. You can hear memes about how this Terran player is imba or that Zerg player is a genius. For Protoss? You just hear that Protoss is OP. I don't think any Protoss player ever got the recognition or admiration that top Zerg or Terran players did.

[@sc2youtube744]

I think simply nerfing emp in pvt would be such an easy fix at the pro level. Just remove the fact that it deletes shields and have it just remove energy and maybe like a minor slow effect or something instead. It feels like they thiught it was a cool idea for lore purposes and thats the only reason why shields get taken away whereas zerg that impact is just not there.

[@ZeCroiSSanT950]

Just increase tempest range via an upgrade and buff colossi range. No need to nerf terran or zerg

[@benismann]

or at least make it take energy AFTER shields. Or before, idk, whatever sounds better, but not both at the same time. Altho that probably wouldnt change much so it would have to shave off like half the shield it does now or smth

[@lukashavrlant]

I simply think too many great Toss players are no longer active as you said in the end of the video…

[@Teacherofall]

Has was the future of Protoss.